PART 2 OF 2 (How Dare You! That's The Wrong Kind of Bullying! Cont'd.)
4) Carreon's letter was generally reasonable and well within the norms for legal practice. However, it too was unnecessarily heavy-handed and escalated the situation. (In particular, I think the demand for money was a step too far.)
Do explain how these two statements are consistent. I can't think of any way in which "uneccessarily heavy-handed" and "generally reasonable" coexist, and in fact the (weasel) words used would seem to introduce a bit of the mutual exclusive thing.
John Kindley:
I am on record as being skeptical of internet circle-jerking and "internet-mobbing." My comment was intended as something of a corrective to that. I generally approve of and applaud Ken's Popehat Signals and his rallying of the internet troops to worthy causes, with the stated caveats.
The stated caveat(s) being self-serving in that you have to not see it as circle-jerking?
Ken • Jun 13, 2012 @11:16 am John: we're going to have to agree to disagree.
CTrees • Jun 13, 2012 @11:50 am Interestingly, if you search FJ for "oatmeal," you get no results. However, if you search for, say, "bearodactyl," you get TONS of results which blatantly infringe on The Oatmeal's intellectual property.
At least searches for "the oatmeal" no longer redirect to searching for "the fag," as FJ previously implimented.
strech • Jun 13, 2012 @11:58 am Threatening a lawsuit is far greater escalation than anything the Oatmeal has done. That it's in a letter containing numerous transparently stupid statements clearly intended to intimidate while holding no legal force doesn't help this.
Also, how would making it public make it "less likely to be resolved", given FunnyJunk's clear disinterest in doing anything about it without public pressure. And since your preferred solution includes "The Oatmeal takes down the bit about theft", it's explicitly worse, given that it's a historical comment that's pretty clearly accurate about FunnyJunk's business model.
the public assessment can be driven by the identity of the parties not by the merit of their respective positions
"can be"? Can you provide any evidence this actually occurring? And strictly on the merits –
The Oatmeal has made several statements about FunnyJunk, all of which are pretty clearly accurate, started a charity fundraiser, and made a tasteless joke about bear sex.
FunnyJunk has (a) lied about the Oatmeal's intentions and told its users to contact him, (b) had Carreon file an inane legal threat which deserves every bit of scorn it's gotten. Additional, Carreon has tried to interfere with said charity fundraiser.
The merits isn't exactly a hard call here, in regards to any of them.
Additionally, "I.e., Carreon is a douchebag attorney" – you know, I've never heard of Carreon before, and likely very few other people had either, apart from vague comments about sex.com that said nothing about him. If he's ended up as "douchebag attorney", it's because of his actions in this case.
fredzeppelin • Jun 13, 2012 @12:10 pm Justin D. Jacobson wrote:
"The Oatmeal could have responded directly to the lawyer along these lines: I disagree with your letter. Nevertheless, I have modified the language in my post to make clear that I am not accusing FunnyJunk of willful trademark infringement. However, I do not believe your client has adequately addressed my concerns as outlined in my initial post. Please take down the following improperly posted material."
I'm curious if this would typically be the proper or advised course of action. How does spending time and energy and money modifying old posts and writing letters further the cause of The Oatmeal? Does mollifying a bully make them go away or come back for more later?
I think this gets to the heart of bullying (which is how I view sending someone a baseless letter from a lawyer demanding $20k up front or else a lawsuit) and how people feel about it.
"I disagree with you wanting to take my lunch money and trapper keeper. Nevertheless, I have given you half of my lunch money. However, I would still like to be repaid for the lunch money and sweet mechanical pencil you took from me last week."
F#ck that. If the bully picks on someone who punches well above their weight, and gets a black eye for their trouble they deserve every bit of it.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @12:21 pm @EH: It has to be frivolous and for the purpose of profit to be barratry (or SLAPP). That presumes Carreon's allegations in the C&D were baseless. There's enough meat on that bone, I don't think it qualifies.
I don't think my comments are contradictory. By "generally reasonable", I was implying a sort of spectrum of conduct for attorneys in this situation. It ranges from Carreon's heavy-handedness to, "Pretty please, take down the bad stuff you sent about us". Carreon was on the end of the spectrum but within the outer bounds. He would have been better served–clearly!–by a less heavy-handed approach, but that doesn't mean the conduct wasn't within that spectrum of appropriate conduct.
@Strech:
I feel like a broken record on this point, but you are conflating Carreon with his client. I believe that many people are being unduly harsh on Carreon because he is an attorney and because they like The Oatmeal. I'm not sure what evidence I could marshal other than my general experience with human nature. Generally, attorneys are held in lower regard than popular Internet comedians.
I also continue to take issue with referring to it merely as a "charity fundraiser", what with the mother-bearlove vector involved.
strech • Jun 13, 2012 @12:35 pm @Justin:
I don't think I'm conflating Carreon with his client; maybe I'm holding him more responsible for the letter because I think the appropriate response a lawyer should give to a client requesting a legal threat over someone saying something they don't like is usually going to be "no", unless you're certain you can reach the high standard of malicious libel. And any chance Carreon had of being the "my idiot client made me do this" is belied by the actual content of the letter.
The law is not some sort of higher way of saying "Pretty please"; it is much much closer to the gun analogy. Threatening lawsuits to make a point instead of actually making the case is one reason no-one likes lawyers.
Also, re: lawyers. Ken seems pretty well liked, apart from all the crazy people he has to deal with.
Robert • Jun 13, 2012 @12:38 pm "I really did not expect that he would marshal an army of people who would besiege my website and send me a string of obscene emails," he says.
This is HILARIOUS! Has he ever actually USED the Internet?
Scott Jacobs • Jun 13, 2012 @12:44 pm At least searches for "the oatmeal" no longer redirect to searching for "the fag," as FJ previously implimented.
Tell me you have screenshots of it doing that…
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @12:44 pm The complaints about FunnyJunk's conduct are distinct from Carreon's. When you string them together, it muddies the point as to both. That FunnyJunk relabeled The Oatmeal's content with "fag" has not bearing on whether or not Carreon acted improperly.
As a technical matter, The Oatmeal accused FunnyJunk of theft. If false, it constitutes libel per se, and malice need not be proven.
desconhecido • Jun 13, 2012 @12:47 pm After reading a bit about this controversy yesterday I cruised on over to the subject lawyer's website and found this. Compare what Carreon says about Youtube with what Oatmeal said about Funny Junk. The differences is are in tone and directness, not substance.
This is very rich irony.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @12:51 pm @Strech
"Threatening lawsuits to make a point instead of actually making the case is one reason no-one likes lawyers."
1) Carreon made his case. Parts of it were apparently specious, but there core of it is facially valid. See my post at 7:51 am.
2) Kinda proves my point. The vast majority of lawyers do not do what you suggest.
SPQR • Jun 13, 2012 @12:51 pm Jacobson, I don't agree that labeling FunnyJunk's business model as "theft" is libel per se. I think its protected opinion as most people would realize that the word "theft" is being used in a general sense rather than that of a specific criminal offense.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @12:55 pm @SPQR:
I agree and said so earlier. But it's not nothing. It's a colorable claim even if it might ultimately not hold water.
desconhecido • Jun 13, 2012 @12:59 pm "As a technical matter, The Oatmeal accused FunnyJunk of theft. If false, it constitutes libel per se, and malice need not be proven."
Of course it's false. Everybody knows it's false. It's hyperbole and metaphor and insult, not an actual accusation of criminal conduct. For a statement to be defamatory doesn't there have to be the possibility that someone being exposed to it might reasonably believe it?
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @1:02 pm Alright, I've avoided today's workload long enough. I've got to check out. Thanks again, everyone.
SPQR • Jun 13, 2012 @1:05 pm In the mid '90's, in the early days of the WWW, I was working for a large, national law firm in their entertainment law / IP group. The firm had large toy and entertainment conglomerates as clients. At a meeting discussing some heavy handed cease and desist threats being proposed against various supposed "infringers" like fan sites, I pointed out the dangers of inciting mass backlash responses.
I remember the incredulous looks I got from the senior attorneys in that group, both incredulous that there was any chance of people being able to muster such support and incredulous that anyone would "dare" to publish a C&D letter. I was scolded for my silly notions. About a year later, after one hilariously panic'd client responding to what would today be seen as a tiny backlash, the group learned to write C&D letters that would be published …
strech • Jun 13, 2012 @1:55 pm @Justin:
I find it hard to read the Oatmeal's part there as saying anything other than "FunnyJunk's business model involves making advertising off of other people's stolen material by letting users upload it and claiming ignorance". I don't find a legal claim on this particularly plausible; I guess a lawsuit on the Oatmeal's words is legally colorable, but I don't think it's enough to threaten a lawsuit. I suppose that's different standards on what kind of situations justify involving lawyers.
I probably would have shrugged off Carreon's involvement as distasteful but unimportant if the letter had more or less stopped and summed up at the "In addition to the above quoted false statement …" sentence, but here that would ignore:
a) The rest of Carreon's letter, which is inexcusable;
and (b) the evidence that the Oatmeal is accurately describing his business model.
Via • Jun 13, 2012 @1:57 pm @Justin
Ok I know this argument has died down but I wanted to point something out.
"Let's be super practical for a minute here. Obviously, I don't know with certainty, but I can all but guarantee Carreon's thinking was along these lines: He sends the letter, The Oatmeal takes down the bit about theft, and the two parties never talk to each other again. Everyone goes on their merry way. I'm sure Carreon had no expectation of actually filing a lawsuit. I'm sure he had no expectation of actually getting paid."
In the letter Carrion sent The Oatmeal he doesnt just ask for the comic against funny junk to be taken down, he asks for that AND twenty thousand dollars. There was no "or"
Ken • Jun 13, 2012 @2:05 pm As a technical matter, The Oatmeal accused FunnyJunk of theft. If false, it constitutes libel per se, and malice need not be proven.
This is a bit misleading. Libel per se means that, when calculating damages, the plaintiff need not prove specific damages, because harm is presumed. It does not free the plaintiff from burdens of proof imposed by the First Amendment with respect to liability — including, in some cases, actual malice.
Charles • Jun 13, 2012 @2:06 pm @ Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @12:51 pm
@Strech
"Threatening lawsuits to make a point instead of actually making the case is one reason no-one likes lawyers."
2) Kinda proves my point. The vast majority of lawyers do not do what you suggest.
Yes, but neither will the vast majority of lawyers stand up and voice disapproval of such bad behavior by their supposed peers (Ken here is a refreshing change of pace). There is either telling silence or a notable circling of the wagons from the legal community. This is quite noticeable and does nothing for the outside observer but give the impression that such behavior is tolerated (as you clearly tolerate Carreon's actions, by your statements here) if not approved of.
Lawyers as a class have a bad reputation in our society specifically not because so many of them are genuinely bad actors, but because genuinely bad actors must go to absurd extremes before they face any real professional repercussions.
I must ask this: if anyone other than an attorney had sent a letter stating, in effect, "hand over $20,000 or I will devote my time and energy to making your life difficult", would you be defending that writer? How does saying that Carreon's actions fall within the "spectrum of conduct for attorneys in this situation" make such a stance acceptable? It is a naked threat, not an attempt to resolve a dispute peaceably.
Ken • Jun 13, 2012 @2:07 pm desconhecido, that's a wonderful find. Amending the post.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 13, 2012 @2:25 pm @Ken:
You're correct, I was mixing up my issues. The libel per se obviates the need to prove actual damages. As I said elsewhere, it alone would support an award of nominal damages and, as an intentional tort, punitive damages.
The issue of malice is a separate one. Under NYT v. Sullivan, to make a case for defamation the plaintiff must show actual malice if they are a public figure.
My apologies for the confusion.
jetaz • Jun 13, 2012 @2:55 pm Perhaps I am confused, but why is Carreon's conduct not extortion? The essence of his letter is "pay me twenty grand or I will sue you."
Am I the only one who feels like the subtext of this letter is "If you don't pay, it will cost you more to fight it, even if you win. And if I win, I get to use the guns held by the state to force you to pay me. So you should just yield; cause it is gonna cost you either way." Or is that just my layman mind thinking?
Ken • Jun 13, 2012 @2:59 pm jetaz, I'd answer, but the response would be either (a) so generic as to be useless, or (b) highly tl;dr.
Get a flavor here.
jetaz • Jun 13, 2012 @3:57 pm Ken, I think I am even more confused. Perhaps I miss understood that ruling, but it seemed like the court said, "You can't prevail in an anti-SLAPP motion if the conduct you are being sued for was illegal. And in this particular case, Mauro did commit extortion, which is illegal, so we are going to agree with the lower court and dismiss Mauro's anti-SLAPP motion."
But how does that relate to whether or not Carreon's conduct was extortion?
Extortion has been defined by the Washington Legislature as "knowingly to obtain or attempt to obtain by threat property or services of the owner, and specifically includes sexual favors." (RCW 9A.56.110)
Threat has been defined by the Washington Legislature in RCW 9A.04.110(28), specifically relevant is paragraph (j) "To do any other act which is intended to harm substantially the person threatened or another with respect to his or her health, safety, business, financial condition, or personal relationships;"
Carreon is attempting to obtain Matthew Inman's property, specifically $20,000 of it, by threatening to file a frivolous lawsuit which is going to harm Mr. Inman with respect to his business, financial condition, and probably his personal relationships. How is that not extortion? I am not trying to be difficult or internet lawyer-y, but I am honestly confused.
Ken • Jun 13, 2012 @4:18 pm jetaz, that cite was my quick reference for the proposition "the line between legitimate negotiation and extortion is not perfectly clear or bright." Ignore the SLAPP elements and focus on Sections B2 and B3, which discuss whether the methods there were extortion and why.
Edward Green • Jun 13, 2012 @6:52 pm Justin, you said:
"It's objectively escalation. I'm not saying it's always wrong to "go public", but it is an escalation. I'm not saying it's bad manners. I'm saying it makes the situation bigger and less likely to be resolved, which is bad."
If I get a C&D Letter with a demand for 20k, and I hire a lawyer, isn't that an escalation as well?
Or are you suggesting that as a non-lawyer, I should enter into a private discussion with someone who's trained in the law? That sounds rather foolish to me.
The only way for it not to be an escalation is to pull the comments and cut a check.
T. J. Brumfield • Jun 13, 2012 @9:14 pm Ken, I've really enjoyed these posts. They're both enlightening and enjoyable. IANAL, and I imagine it is fair to say that the light between legitimate negotiation and extortion isn't always clear, but isn't the flip side of that statement that sometimes it is?
Isn't "give me money or I will do bad things to you" the very definition of extortion?
T. J. Brumfield • Jun 13, 2012 @9:22 pm And not only should an "internet lawyer" be familiar with internet bullying (and the Streisand Effect), but he should be aware his client leveraged the same tactic last year when FunnyJunk emailed all their members asking them to harass Inman.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @5:53 am @T.J.:
"[T]he light between legitimate negotiation and extortion isn't always clear, but isn't the flip side of that statement that sometimes it is."
You've stated the fundamental issue far more clearly and succinctly than I did. That is absolutely true. In my opinion, while a close call, Carreon's conduct is in that acceptable range. That's pretty much what I've been taking about 120,000 words to say.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @6:01 am To clarify: It's not extortion to try to settle a claim prior to bringing a lawsuit.
If your response is that the threatened lawsuit in this instance was frivolous, I would say: (a) it's not extortion to try to settle a frivolous claim prior to bringing a lawsuit, and (b) the claim in this case was not frivolous.
There is clearly a disconnect between the lay use of the term "frivolous" and its use in the legal context. In the legal context, there is a much higher standard. You might decry that, but the alternative would give rise to a serious chilling effect in bringing lawsuits generally, particularly against well-funded defendants, which seems to be precisely the sort of thing you are actually concerned about.
I would also point you to the McDonald's coffee case, of which there is a great summary here.
Patrick • Jun 14, 2012 @6:41 am In my opinion, while a close call, Carreon's conduct is in that acceptable range.
The lawyers I admire (and I've been doing this for close to 20 years) don't skate onto thin ice. There's a vast gulf between the ethical practice of law and avoiding Rule 11 sanctions.
If it seems to be a close call, it isn't. It's wrong.
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @6:43 am But Justin, it is extortion to do so when your claim is absolutely without merit.
He knows it is, because prior to this letter, he is on record claiming that conduct such as funnyjunk's is not valid (see quote by another commentator).
He sent a bullshit letter where he threatened painful, lengthy, expensive litigation unless he got paid off.
He then cried about having th3 mob sent after him when a) the Oatmeal didn't send people after them, he just asked for donations b) his client had ACTUALLY sent a mob of mouth-breathers after the Oatmeal after the first run-in, and did so by lying about the issue c) and then his client, clearly knowing Oatmeal content remained, redirected all searches for the Oatmeal's stuff to "the fag".
How the unholy monkeyfuck is HIS conduct the stuff you are OK with?
The only possible explination I can think of (and I have tried to come up with others) is that you are either associated with the lawyer, or with Funnyjunk.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @7:11 am @Patrick:
I agree with you in principle. However, as a logical necessity, there must be some conduct that is close to the line but acceptable. Otherwise, the area of acceptable conduct ultimately shrinks to nothing. I maintain that the conduct here was acceptable. We can disagree about that. Do you think it is obviously improper or patently frivolous as others have said? Do you think FunnyJunk's claim of defamation for The Oatmeal's comment that they were committing theft is "absolutely without merit"? (See below.)
@Scott:
I've addressed what you've said in your post elsewhere on a couple of occasions. The claim is not absolutely without merit. It was not a bullshit letter. He did not demand a "pay off", which implies something nefarious. The independent acts of his client should have no bearing on how we judge his conduct.
And, no, I am not associated with Carreon or FunnyJunk. As I've said previously–did you read my prior posts?–I'd never heard of either of them prior to this situation.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @7:14 am I'd like some lawyers to weigh in on this fundamental issue:
I understand you might not like FunnyJunk's business model, but do you believe that FunnyJunk is acting illegally in the operation of their website?
If the answer to that is "no", then I don't see how you can say that Carreon's claim of defamation per se is patently frivolous. I don't think it would ultimately hold up in court, but it's not patently frivolous.
T. J. Brumfield • Jun 14, 2012 @7:16 am On the whole I do see that a lawyer needs the ability to try and negotiate a settlement out of court. Asking for money to avoid a suit isn't inherently wrong in my opinion (I'll avoid the terms legal and illegal). I think I get where Justin is coming from.
But I agree with both Patrick and Scott's counter-points. Carreon has a track record of comments that suggest he knows this potential lawsuit has no merit. He isn't negotiating in good faith. He's shaking Inman down for money.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @7:20 am That's certainly possible. I don't know Carreon at all. I am unaware of hsi prior dealings in these sorts of situations. I was merely addressing the facts of this situation objectively.
Even that's not possible. To be honest, what really triggered my response was a sense of sympathy for an attorney acting in the scope of their representation and getting hammered for it. I'm a debt collection attorney, so there is a greater than zero chance I'm overly sensitive to this sort of thing.
JRM • Jun 14, 2012 @7:25 am Scott:
I think your thinking powers lack range on this subject. I think Justin's wrong on this thread, but he's engaged his audience and articulated a position in a way that shills historically don't do. (Clues: Apparent real name of poster, willingness to change view, politeness, failure to call opponents names.) This is not behavior consistent the swarm of locusts FJ tried to send out the first time.
As to affiliation with Carreon, it doesn't make a lot of sense for some of the same reasons (and their geographic lack of proximity and lack of other apparent ties).
In short, I think this is a cheap shot of the "everyone who disagrees with me must be corrupt because I am so obviously right all the time," variety. Bad call, friend.
–JRM
ShelbyC • Jun 14, 2012 @7:27 am Dear Charles Carreon,
On an interview with MSNBC, you claimed that the Oatmeal "marshal[led] an army of people who would besiege my website and send me a string of obscene emails," he says. This claim is clearly false and defamatory, and done with actual malice. To avoid a lawsuit, please send a check for $20,000 and a drawing of your mom attempting to seduce a Kodiak bear, to the American Cancer Society and the World Wildlife Federation.
JRM • Jun 14, 2012 @7:27 am Ah, during composition of this lots of other posts here. Anyway, my point still stands about the cheap shot.
ShelbyC • Jun 14, 2012 @7:57 am @Justin, "I understand you might not like FunnyJunk's business model, but do you believe that FunnyJunk is acting illegally in the operation of their website?
If the answer to that is "no", then I don't see how you can say that Carreon's claim of defamation per se is patently frivolous."
Not a lawyer, but I don't get it. Did Carreon claim that the oatmeal said that funnyjunk's business model was illegal? The statement Carreon claims is false is a perfectly accurate description of at least a portion of funnyjunk's business, which, as you say, we may not like, no?
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @8:24 am Sometimes defamation claims are obvious: "John stole my iPhone." (assuming he did not actually steal it.
A lot of times, they are not. Ultimately the trier of fact must look at the totality of the communication for context. That Mauro case, cited earlier, is a good example. You'll note that the court stresses that it's finding is based on the specific facts of the case. They always are.
In this instance, The Oatmeal's comment that FJ "practically stole my entire site" combined with the rest of the post could reasonably be read as a stating that they intentionally violated his trademark. If false (and I think it is based on Betamax), it establishes a non-frivolous claim of defamation.
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @8:33 am And while you would be correct were the claims false, the links provided by the Oatmeal easy suggest they they are not, on their face, false. If you go there now, you will still find Oatmeal comics.
The Oatmeal makes no money from them posting his content, while funnyjunk does.
Sounds like theft to me.
Please, besides the bullshit of "he called us mean names make him stop", what in the letter the Oatmeal received was either accurate or actionable?
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @8:35 am And to address another point – yesthere are areas near the unethical line. Means to an end that are questionable, but not actionable.
What Patrick meant, I believe, is that the lawyers he respects – the ones the should be respected – never have to go that far. Their actions are always clearly ethical, no "close" about it.
perlhaqr • Jun 14, 2012 @8:38 am Justin: I think everyone here is sort of arguing at cross-purposes. I get the impression your point is mostly that Carreon didn't deserve to be mocked (and receive 10k+ emails calling his mother a bearlover) for "doing his job", as it were.
That because Carreon is a lawyer, and not an internet humorist, he deserved to have his legal instrument addressed by another legal instrument, and not merely subjected to public ridicule.
The problem with this theory (if it is actually how you feel) is that a lot of people think lawyers who send outrageous C&D letters are jerks. And sending an outrageous C&D letter to someone who is not a lawyer, but rather an internet humorist, is likely to elicit a response of the form the person receiving it is most comfortable with. Not being a lawyer, The Oatmeal didn't respond with a legal instrument, he responded with, well, internet humor. And other people, having read both the original C&D, and The Oatmeal's response to that C&D, decided that the original C&D was outrageous, and that this makes Carreon a jerk, and then decided on their very own to let Carreon know how they felt.
Think of it as the egalitarian tendency of the internet; ain't none of us safe from being called a jerk if we act like a jerk in public. From the lowest SEO marketroid to the very President of the United States, if you kick a puppy and people find out about it, it's going to get you called all sorts of very exciting and probably misspelled names on the internet.
ShelbyC • Jun 14, 2012 @8:44 am @Justin: "In this instance, The Oatmeal's comment that FJ "practically stole my entire site" combined with the rest of the post could reasonably be read as a stating that they intentionally violated his trademark."
I'm not sure how. Isn't it perfectly clear, in context, that the "stole" refers to other users uploading the oatmeal's content, and funnyjunk claiming ignorance? It appears, in context, two lines after a numbered list describing such activity.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @8:51 am @ShelbyC, you need only look at Scott's post three up to see that's not the case. Scott thinks that FunnyJunk is committing theft because user's are posting Oatmeal content on their site and they are making money. It seems clear that he thinks this because of The Oatmeal's post.
He's wrong. It's objectively not theft. (Seriously, Scott, look at the Betamax case.) But it demonstrates with remarkable clarity the basis for Carreon's defamation claim.
perlhaqr • Jun 14, 2012 @8:52 am ShelbyC: In addition to that, on Carreon's website, at
http://www.charlescarreon.com/temporarily-unavailable/ (referring to his contact page) Carreon states: "Due to security attacks instigated by Matt Inman, this function has been temporarily disabled."
Now, I don't know if there's a legal definition for "instigate", but my basic knowledge of the English language suggests this means that Inman actually told people to attack Carreon.
Since Inman has, to the best of my knowledge, said no such thing, would this also count as defamation? An implication that Inman engaged in illegal behaviour to rile the crowd to harass Carreon? (In my very limited understanding of legal details, I believe it to be the case that there's no First Amendment protection for inciting a riot or inciting a lynch mob.)
Victor • Jun 14, 2012 @8:58 am Statute of Limitations for defamation in the state of Washington is 1 year. Should this actually make it to trial this will most likely get thrown out of court since the post by Inman in question if my facts are right was made on May 2011. Carreon feeder serves a demand letter to Inman on June 2012.
Man so many strikes against Funnyjunk, why they wait so long to make this demand? Did the Admin wake up one morning and said oh shit I need more money, let's see if I can pick on this guy who complained about me almost a year ago? Disgraceful.
desconhecido • Jun 14, 2012 @8:59 am Two points:
1. In a rather interesting, and in my opinion, well written and reasoned, article posted on his website, Carreon discusses the Google/YouTube business model in essentially the same way that Oatmeal discusses FunnyJunk's business model. No, Carreon is not insulting or comically crude, but as I noted before, the differences between Carreon 's comments about Google and Oatmeal's comments about FunnyJunk are in style, tone, and directness, not substance. This is a pretty good indication that Carreon understands that what Oatmeal posted about FunnyJunk is reasonable and fair comment.
2. It is common to refer to those who willfully violate copyright law, and those who profit from that violation, as thieves and to refer to improperly used material as stolen. Of course, it's not theft and the material has not been stolen and everybody understands that. The references to property crimes are metaphorical and are used to express the opinion that those who violate copyright laws, and those who profit, are reprehensible; morally no higher than common thieves. It's sort of like referring to Bill Clinton as Chelsea's pimp. Nobody would think that an accusation that they are engaged in prostitution.
So, Carreon understands all this. He understands criticism of the business models of entities like YouTube and FunnyJunk — he's engaged in it himself. He's a self-proclaimed internet lawyer so he should be expected to have some understanding of the use of metaphorical and insulting expressions of opinion with respect to copyright violators and those who profit from those violations.
Finally, would casual reference to a lawyer as an "ambulance chaser" be considered an accusation of the crime of barratry or would it be protected opinion that the lawyer in question is reprehensible?
ShelbyC • Jun 14, 2012 @9:00 am "@ShelbyC, you need only look at Scott's post three up to see that's not the case. Scott thinks that FunnyJunk is committing theft because user's are posting Oatmeal content on their site and they are making money. It seems clear that he thinks this because of The Oatmeal's post."
You're suggesting that, had Oatmeal not said that funnyjunk "practically stole" his website, Scott would not believe that the activity described in the Oatmeal's post was theft? I don't see any support for that at all. I think people believe it's theft because making money off other people's content without payment or attribution sounds alot like theft, not because of any particular statements Oatmeal made,
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @9:03 am The betamax case is a BS counter. The Oatmeal owns his own stuff. It is taken, without just compensation, and posted elsewhere. This elsewhere makes money off of advertising, which means posting popular things makes them more money.
How, on this or any planet, is the taking of one's property – without ANY just compensation, I would remind you – not theft?
And I have thought Funny Junk has been stealing content – property – from many artists without compensating them for some time. Yes, I first became aware through the original Oatmeal post, but regardless, posting of the content of another is theft. Period.
perlhaqr • Jun 14, 2012 @9:08 am Oh, even better. Carreon has engaged in cyber-mobbing himself.
http://www.charlescarreon.com/charles-c ... 012/01/23/Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @9:11 am @ShelbyC:
You're correct. I didn't mean to imply that his opinion was based solely on The Oatmeal's post. That would be silly. Scott's assessment is that FJ is committing theft because user's are posting Oatmeal content on their site and they are making money. That's essentially the same as the content of The Oatmeal's original post.
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @9:13 am @desconhecido – dude would be right, if those two didn't take down copyrighted material when made aware of it, reacted like posted the copyrighted material was actually a FAVOR to the creator, and then made searches for that creator's stuff still there despite knowing it was stolen resolve to "the fag".
Google might be tools, but they at least try, sometimes, to not be fucking thieves.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @9:21 am @Scott, you're just simply wrong on this. What the Betamax case held was that a technology that has significant non-infringing uses is valid. FJ is not appropriating or uploading the content; their users are. You might not like the implications of that, and indeed the Betamax case is being re-examined in light of file-sharing sites like FJ. However, under the law as it is now, it's not theft.
Is YouTube committing theft?
Scott Jacobs • Jun 14, 2012 @9:24 am Sure Charles is an internet lawyer…
But does he wwebsite as on the internet?
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @9:25 am My third and final thanks for a great and civil conversation. I'm checking out for good. (This thread, that is. I'm not like dying or anything.)
SPQR • Jun 14, 2012 @9:48 am Justin, first of all I don't think that the interpretation of the word "theft" by Inman is going to turn on a copyright case. But if it did, Betamax is very far from the applicable case when you have cases like Grokster out there.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @9:56 am It's like the Godfather: Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in.
On the contrary, they're both applicable. SCOTUS had the opportunity to recede from Betamax (actually, "Sony"), but they didn't. What they did was establish a test by which a person might be excluded from the protection of Sony. Among other things, the Grokster Court said that the mere absence of affirmative steps to prevent copyright infringement was not sufficient to avoid Sony and establish liability.
I haven't seen anyone–including The Oatmeal's original post–suggest that FJ intended to promote copyright infringement.
desconhecido • Jun 14, 2012 @10:05 am "Is YouTube committing theft?"
Literally or legally, no. Metaphorically, yes. They are like thieves, they are like receivers of stolen property. Read Carreon's piece about Google for interesting comment on the Google/YouTube business model.
Of course, everyone is probably thinking about the famous "shocked!" scene in Casablanca.
ShelbyC • Jun 14, 2012 @10:09 am @Justin: "Scott's assessment is that FJ is committing theft because user's are posting Oatmeal content on their site and they are making money. That's essentially the same as the content of The Oatmeal's original post."
Still not seeing the colorable claim. Scott and Oatmeal are free to characterized FJ's model as "theft" or stealing if they wish. In context, such a characterization may or may not imply that FJ is breaking the law. In context, I just don't see how Oatmeal's use of "stole" can reasonably be interpreted to suggest that FJ is willfully infringing on Oatmeal's copyright or trademark. Oatmeal is very clear about what conduct FJ is engaging in that he is characterizing as stealing, and he is indeed entitled to a legal remedy for such conduct, that is, a DCMA takedown.
desconhecido • Jun 14, 2012 @10:11 am "I haven't seen anyone–including The Oatmeal's original post–suggest that FJ intended to promote copyright infringement."
Ohmygod. That is the substance of Carreon's letter. Oatmeal describes FJ's business model in unflattering terms and Carreon states:
"this is a false accusation of willful copyright infringement." So, if Oatmeal didn't intend to accuse FJ of copyright infringement, what is the basis for the defamation suit?
Ken • Jun 14, 2012 @10:12 am Today Randazza links to The Oatmeal's response-via-lawyer, as opposed to its response-via-internet.
That letter cites relevant defamation precedents helping to explain some (though not all) of the reasons that I strongly disagree with Justin.
Some of the familiar doctrines in play, grossly oversimplified: (1) when a statement is capable of a defamatory and a non-defamatory meaning, the courts treat it as having the non-defamatory meaning, (2) defamation is determined not by the literal, precise truth of the statement, but by the "gist" or "sting" of the statement (so, for example, if Justin said "Ken was disbarred for molesting squirrels," and I was actually just suspended for abusing chipmunks, that would likely not be defamatory), and so on.
Ken • Jun 14, 2012 @10:19 am In the same vein, Carreon's whine that Inman "instigated" attacks on Carreon's web site is almost certainly not defamatory, even though it's perfectly clear that Inman did not say "go attack his web site."
SPQR • Jun 14, 2012 @10:37 am OK, its not a bad letter …
And I think it illustrates well why Carreon's claim is simply frivolous and not colorable.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 14, 2012 @10:42 am That is indeed a great response. Thanks for sharing, Ken.
We don't disagree about everything. I said from the outset that I thought FJ's claim was ultimately insufficient. I just don't think it's frivolous.
Grifter • Jun 14, 2012 @11:12 am While we may agree that Carreon's comments were not defamatory for the same reason the Oatmeal's weren't, it's pretty hypocritical of someone who claims to think that the Oatmel's were, isn't it?
Sarahw • Jun 14, 2012 @1:38 pm Ken, it's very annoying nonetheless and rather a big fib. Inman instigated laughter and charity donations. Maybe that might lead to more bear attacks and hacked oncogenes but really, way to puff, Carreon.
Chris • Jun 14, 2012 @5:45 pm I have had an email exchange with Charles Carreon. Until today I thought he may be misguided but an okay fellow. However after accusing Matthew Inman of instigating attacks against him I find him disingenuous. Privately he has said he enjoyed the attention and made fun of advice I gave him that the internet could get weird on him really quickly. He doesn't seem concerned at all. Publicly of course he and his wife are acting very differently. She accused Inman of being a Killer Clown Psychopath from outer space, or something of the sort. Here is a quote from Mr. Carreon from an email:
"Ironically, I am sufficiently well-positioned that what might seem like a debacle and force others into hiding has quite the reverse effect on me. I have plans and plans, and I love talking to the media. "
Ken • Jun 14, 2012 @6:47 pm Trying to investigate whether the various comments posted online in the name of Mr. Carreon's wife are genuine or not.
Chris • Jun 14, 2012 @6:50 pm @Ken
I asked Charles in email (a long one with numerous subjects) and he did not reply to that specific point.
Sarahw • Jun 15, 2012 @6:03 am I'm not usually one to make personal remarks but I hope Carreon plans to get a better hat.
Justin D. Jacobson • Jun 15, 2012 @6:25 am In light of recent events, I feel like I need to come back to state clearly: While I maintain my position regarding Carreon's initial demand letter, I don't in any way condone his subsequent conduct, which I find to be unprofessional and reprehensible.
V • Jun 15, 2012 @10:58 am There's another interview with Charles Carreon on Forbes.
I get the feeling he's walking right up to a line, in one of the quotes, pretending he's losing his balance and in danger of falling over the line and then recovering with a smile;
So someone takes one of my letters and takes it apart. [...] and douchebaggery,
'Someone' could be anyone right, it's not like he's actually saying he means Inman.
Ken • Jun 15, 2012 @11:02 am Working on a new post about that now, V.
AlphaCentauri • Jun 15, 2012 @4:54 pm I don't think the Betamax case applies, because once the cassette recorders and cassettes left the factory, Sony had no control over how they were used. It's not like they were hosting an online marketplace of pirated videos.
Funnyjunk has direct control over content. They have given users the ability to upload it without pre-approval, and no one is saying that should stop. But if a content owner contacts you and shows that your users violating his copyright, and not only that but his content is so popular that large numbers of your users are violating his copyright, you don't mock him. You talk to him about how to remove his content quickly with the least inconvenience to both of you, or better, you talk about how you can mirror his content with attribution and both get in on additional revenue.
Funnyjunk has put themselves in a position where they have to respect the rights of copyright holders while allowing the most freedom to their users, and showing such a lack of maturity raises questions about whether they're up to the task.
TexasSwede • Jun 16, 2012 @7:17 am Interesting enough, Charles Carreon have taken down his blog (or at least the entry when he accuse Youtube of doing exactly what his cleint FunnyJunk is doing).
Google still have it cached at
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... 010/06/23/Here is the text, as copied from Google cache:
—————————————————–
All Google Needed Was An Effective Takedown System to Reach the Safe Harbor
In granting summary judgment against Viacom on the grounds that Google was a legitimate Online Service Provider with an effective takedown system, and therefore entitled to receive the benefit of the DMCA “Safe Harbor” under 17 USC 512(c), the District Court cites copious amounts of legislative history establishing that without the safe harbor, the Internet might not grow robustly. (Download PDF) Google’s general knowledge that there was a whole lot of infringement happening on YouTube didn’t mean that it was obligated to start screening for infringing content or hunting it down once it was posted, because their job is just to have an effective takedown system to remove content once the creator tells them it’s infringing. The burden of discovering infringing content never shifts to the Online Service Provider, and it’s always the copyright holder’s job to find it and identify it by URL. The court said:
Mere knowledge of prevalence of such activity in general is not enough. That is consistent with an area of the law devoted to protection of distinctive individual works, not of libraries. To let knowledge of a generalized practice of infringement in the industry, or of a proclivity of users to post infringing materials, impose responsibility on service providers to discover which of their users’ postings infringe a copyright would contravene the structure and operation of the DMCA.
YouTube Is DMCA-Friendly, Napster Was Not
The court also held that even though YouTube technology made it easy to infringe, that didn’t make it like Grokster or Napster, because those were systems that were designed to foment piracy. This is an interesting distinction, because creating a video bazaar where everyone knows you can find stolen content doesn’t seem that different from creating a file sharing system where everyone knows you can create stolen content, but it’s different in one important way — Napster and Grokster never went around deleting content, and had no mechanism that would allow a copyright holder to locate where the content was and send a takedown notice. This really means that some technology is DMCA-friendly (YouTube-style video communities) and some is not.
Ad Revenue From Tainted Traffic Is Pure
The court rejected the argument that Google should lose the DMCA safe harbor because it was generating ad traffic by having a site that in general, contains a lot of infringing content. This part of the opinion isn’t very satisfying. The court seems to be finessing the issue when it says:
The safe harbor requires that the service provider “not receive a financial benefit directly attributable to the infringing activity, in a case in which the service provider has the right and ability to control such activity ” § 512(c) (1) (B). The “right and ability to control” the activity requires knowledge of it, which must be item-specific.There may be arguments whether revenues from advertising, applied equally to space regardless of whether its contents are or are not infringing, are “directly attributable to” infringements, but in any event the provider must know of the particular case before he can control it.
That’s a distorted reading of “right and ability to control.” Google has the right and ability to delete every single video on the whole site, or to just turn it off altogether. Google has the right and ability to delete every single video on the whole site, or to just turn it off altogether. To say they have no “ability to control” infringing videos until they know that they are infringing is like saying I can’t control my appetite until I know the caloric content of my food. If I were Viacom, not that I want to be Viacom, I would tell my lawyers to appeal on the grounds that the district judge distorted the meaning of the statute here. After all, the court admitted that Google was working the system:
From plaintiffs’ submissions on the motions, a jury could find that the defendants not only were generally aware of, but welcomed, copyright-infringing material being placed on their website. Such material was attractive to users, whose increased usage enhanced defendants’ income from advertisements displayed on certain pages of the website, with no discrimination between infringing and non-infringing content.
Let The Creator Beware
If Google can generate ad revenue by taking in every kind of content without distinction, and make money on the infringing attractions, then Google can “work the float,” and always have enough infringing content to keep its blood pressure up at the expense of copyright holders. The only way that content owners can act proactively is by implementing digital “fingerinting technology” through the “Claim Your Content” system that Google uses as its only screening mechanism. Fingerprinting your content is not, however, cheap. So what this opinion seems to announce is a doctrine of “Caveat Creator,” let the creator beware.
Will The Real Free Speech Provider Please Stand Up?
Please don’t take me for a copyright hawk, but this seems like a ruling that benefits a company that has made a habit of turning other people’s work into their payday, and is being encouraged to keep on doing it. Meanwhile, real free, nonprofit libraries that have no advertising revenue, are discouraged from putting the works in their archives on the Internet where scholars and researchers can use it for fair use purposes, because publishers do not respect the fair use protections of 17 USC 107 (the Library Exemption from copyright infringement liability). I am currently defending the American Buddha Online Library against a suit from Penguin, and although I won on jurisdictional grounds in New York District Court, Penguin appealed, and the Second Circuit court of appeals is now asking the New York State Appeals Court to take a look at the issues and see if something better can be worked out for Penguin by tweaking New York state law. I am doing this case pro bono, because I’ve been well acquainted with the director for many years, but few libraries have a handy intellectual property lawyer to handle their cases. So true freedom of speech on the Internet is getting suppressed by copyright lawsuits while Google gets to keep minting money by working the DMCA like a money pump. Nice work if you can get it.
AlphaCentauri • Jun 16, 2012 @7:26 pm "I am doing this case pro bono, because I’ve been well acquainted with the director for many years"
I will refrain from making jokes about working "pro boner."