The impulse to believe the absurd when presented with the unknowable is called religion. Whether this is wise or unwise is the domain of doctrine. Once you understand someone's doctrine, you understand their rationale for believing the absurd. At that point, it may no longer seem absurd. You can get to both sides of this conondrum from here.


Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:22 pm

Part 2 of 6

MR. HATCHETT: The reason I ask you all these questions: It would appear to me there's a father and son rift, you know, a real falling-out. And may this not be just a vendetta against Dad?

MR. DeWOLFE:, No, no.

MR. HATCHETT: Why should I believe you?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, first, there've been, like, twenty-three years under the bridge. You must realize one thing about me is I'm the same person now as I was then, except it's like I lived two different lives. Then I loved what I did and I also now love what I do, which is I have my wife and I have my children. That's what's become the most important thing to me.

And it was -- to put it in oversimplification -- it was a science fiction world, and I've come to appreciate reality and truth a great deal. In those days, we treated the constitution and the laws around like they were toilet paper. And I've learned to appreciate those a lot more recently.

And another thing, too, is that the truth and facts about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are slowly and surely being brought out by other people also. In my own personal opinion, I am even a superfluous being right here, right now, because you have enough witnesses, you have enough affidavits, you have enough documentation -- so does the federal government, so does the state government -- to certainly see that the facts and truth of Scientology, Dianetics, and the life of L. Ron Hubbard come out.

And this is going to sound like kind of a mealy-mouthed, hollow statement, but it's really quite true because I do have the facts and truth in being able to stand up and tell what I know. But as an example on the life of L. Ron Hubbard, it's easily documented, not through what I say but what other people say, by bits and pieces of his past, the papers, the documentation. So, vendetta? No.

I've also learned another thing, which is that I was all very emotional about it in the early days after I left and I began to hate and what have you. But I've learned that hate only does one thing, which is consume the person doing the hating. And so I've absolutely refused to hate him. And people can't understand this man who has done all this stuff, how can his son not hate him? I refuse to hate, because if I hate him, then, this gives my children the right to hate me, or other people the right to hate me kind of thing.

So those are all these heavy, negative emotions and feelings I've been able to cut out.

MR. HATCHETT: My last question -- thank you. Do you know for a fact whether your father is still living?

MR. DeWOLFE: No, I haven't seen his dead body in a coffin. But over the years, we have written back and forth. He has kept a secret address down in Los Angeles that non-Scientology types and family would write to. I have it, if you wish it; I don't think I have it with me, but it's a post office box number. But over the years, all of a sudden, about -- I would say somewhere between 1979 -- 1975 to 1979 -- and even more recently, some of the letters I've received, there's a complete change in syntax. He has a very special way of stringing words together, which, after reading umpteen million of them ever since I've been a kid, I can recognize. And just bits and pieces and that sort of thing leads me to believe that he just possibly might be, but I don't know.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you very much.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe, apparently, from what you've indicated, many of the procedures which are currently used were actually created in the time that you were still with your father, and in here did it classify as Dianetics or else for the Church of Scientology?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, that's correct.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you -- were you --

MR. DeWOLFE: There's been little or no change in the actual basis.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you briefly explain what the purpose of auditing is, for example, how you came up with --not necessarily you, but your father or whoever came up with the idea of auditing?

MR. DeWOLFE: As I said, auditing is a term used in accounting to -- you have to go back to the basic theory of Dianetics as it was set up: any and all man's ills are mentally caused, based. And it's based in what is called an engram, that is, moments of pain in unconsciousness. So, auditing would be the eradication of moments of pain in unconsciousness and discomfort and et cetera in one's past and subconsciousness. I'm talking about Dianetically at the moment.


MR. DeWOLFE: Dianetics. So that is the basic modus operandi of it, the basics of what auditing is. Auditing, physically, is basically -- in the old days of Dianetics -- laying down on the auditing couch, somewhat similar to the psychiatrist's couch, and you would sit there and return people into the past and get very much involved in, for instance, pre-natal experiences, birth, and other areas of trauma. As I said, it was a do-it-yourself psychoanalysis or psychotherapy.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe, do you personally, do you have firsthand knowledge of how the material that was obtained for the auditing process was used?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes of course, everybody was told that the files were confidential, that they were treated as if they were files of, say, a doctor or a priest or an attorney. And they were, in the main, by most people, but it was quite inviolate. But of course, Dad and I had complete access to it.

And one thing I ought to mention is that -- it's kind of embarrassing to mention -- I'm the one who originated the bugging of auditing rooms in the Hubbard Guidance Center in Washington, D.C. so we could pick up on what was going on in an auditing session. And what I told everybody at the time was that most of the people that worked in the Hubbard Guidance Center -- the Hubbard Guidance Center was the auditing department; it was where people got their auditing, but most of the people there were students of mine -- so, I put the microphones in and the speakers, et cetera, and the tape recorders so that I could monitor their progress as students. That's what they were told. But their files were used, as I said, for pressure, blackmail, and all these other -- some of those bits and pieces back in -- yesterday.

MR. SHOEMAKER: How was the Fair Game Policy created? Where was the origin? What --

MR. DeWOLFE: The origin simply was that if anybody gave us any problem, any trouble, why, we'd just attack them. We were pretty successful at it.

And if you're talking about power and what have you, that was a lot of fun to take on the FBI, take on the IRS, take on the government, take on anybody and whip it out. And as I said, I'm in the early twenties, and we're stomping the hell out of people and getting away with it. But the point is that's pretty heady stuff.

What the Fair Game was is that again, it falls back to the same basic idea, which is total destruction: do whatever was necessary to get the job done.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You had mentioned before that you had actually created what was called at that point the grind policy.

MR. DeWOLFE: Yeah.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What was the purpose of that policy where the students were required to work long, extended periods of time?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, we had a lot to teach them, plus it was a very good control mechanism. Very tired people are very receptive.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I see. So, it's a control mechanism?

MR. DeWOLFE: You see, we were controlling the body. If I had a walking microphone and you had the time, I'd demonstrate it for you. By the way, as a matter of example, anything I talk about, I'm more than happy to demonstrate.

MR. SHOEMAKER: The other one, Mr. DeWolfe, I wanted to ask about here: In the -- and I know you've seen the outline -- in the outline, there is an item referred to as "November 1968, racket exposed relating to the listing of thirteen people" personally declared Fair Game by Mr. Hubbard.


MR. SHOEMAKER: Would you explain that a little bit, what was involved in that and what that meant?

MR. DeWOLFE: That meant exactly what it said. Well, it wasn't written up, and I wasn't in Scientology at this particular time in '63, having left in '59. This is the same sort of thing that we would write out. The Fair Game Policy in the fifty's was something which was very verbal. Maybe a point I'd like to make here very quickly is that there are two concurrent lives of L. Ron Hubbard going on at the same time. You have the super-secret hidden, private life of L. Ron Hubbard, which very few people knew, and which is now, probably, as we go along through time here, will be discovered more of, because now that I talked, maybe other people will feel it's safe to talk. So all of this was all verbal. And, of course, he didn't have the power base he had in the fifties that he had later. So it was kind of a secret thing. But this is precisely, as you read it. It's exactly what was meant. It was not done as an empty, hollow threat. And this means you were cut off from all people. If we could do something to you, we did.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe -- and this will be my last question -- I know this is a difficult one to try to answer, but I think it should be asked. Obviously, you're under a great deal of duress to come here and to testify at this --

MR. DeWOLFE: No, I'm not under duress, sir.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, I didn't -- that's the wrong word. I mean, you had to have had a lot of trauma --

MR. DeWOLFE: I would have walked here on my hands and knees.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I guess my question is why? That's what I'm getting down to.

MR. DeWOLFE: As I said, I happened to have acquired a rather strong like for constitutionality, laws, truth, and fact over the years. It's a very funny thing; I don't know how to explain the mechanism. Maybe somebody else can. But I spent years having no real, honest, commonly understood ethics or legality. And the laws were something to be used. They were a weapon. A court or anything else was used as a sledgehammer. I didn't have any of those. They didn't mean anything to me. Life didn't mean anything to me. It wasn't something to be loved and cherished and nurtured. People were robots to me. People were nothing but raw meat. And over the years, I've suddenly started getting my head sorted out. It wasn't until late 1978, that the last vestiges of all of the Scientology-nonsense and Hubbard nonsense got out of my skull. But there's nothing worse than, say, a sinner who has become a preacher, because he knows every in and out of the whole thing. He believe in these things, and he -- everybody, like you -- so many people like you, they take the constitution simply for granted because, as kids, it was just there. And too many people take too much for granted. But, as I said, I don't take any of that for granted, and that's why I'm here. I think -- and again, I think I'm considering myself personally -- my being here not all that totally necessary. And so that's why I'm here, just to help it out. I've always tried to be one of the things my father taught me. I still follow some of these rules which is try to be effective and efficient. And so, this is a good forum to say all these things that I haven't been able to get out. And I've tried for years to try to say things to people to try to tell them, and they laughed at me a great deal because they think that some of the things I say are as a far out as my father's science fiction.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe, just one other question: At the time you were in the Church of Scientology, did they have the Guardian's Office?


MR. SHOEMAKER: Did they have any --

MR. DeWOLFE: It was a do-it-yourself organization. I mean, we didn't have a complete department called the Guardian's Office. It was done by L. Ron Hubbard, by Mary Sue. It wasn't, as I said, it wasn't something that was hung up there on the org board.

MR. SHOEMAKER: When you say "it," what do you mean by it?

MR. DeWOLFE: The Guardian's Office. We, you know --

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir. But what was done by Mr. Hubbard and Mrs. Hubbard that the Guardian's Office does now?

MR. DeWOLFE: The same things. So you mean, specific Incidents?

MR. SHOEMAKER: No, I accept that. What was being done then that you can relate to what is being done now by the Guardian's Office?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, there's something referred to earlier, just rapid expose -- the attacking of any enemies of Scientology, the pumping out of this information, the Guardian's protection of Scientology, the protection of the organization itself.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I want to ask --

MR. DeWOLFE: Any Scientology organization to me is called organization.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I don't mean to put words into your mouth, but are you saying that these are the same types of practices, whether legal or illegal, that were done then --


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- to protect the organization?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Two quick ones: You have said that your entire youth was spent in Scientology in the planning stage: formulating, writing, plotting, along with your father who was the Founder, with all this study and all this planning and all this effort, has it left you with any marketable skills at age forty-eight?

MR. DeWOLFE: Marketable skills?

MR. LeCHER: Has it prepared you for a job after Scientology?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. I didn't know what to do. I've held probably a couple of dozen jobs at least over the years. I didn't have any skills that you would call marketable skills, so I had to learn them. I had to learn how to work. It's incredibly difficult in the very beginning like that to try and get back into some kind of routine and work nine to five. I wasn't used to receiving a paycheck or even how to earn a paycheck. But it took me quite a number of years. After all, you know, with six children, you better get something or you're passed.

MR. LECHER: Thank you. One other question: Can you tell me something about radiation?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. I find this kind of funny -- I know that many people don't, but I happen to have a thirty-two-year view of the thing -- there's a book called "All About Radiation" that came out in the mid-fifties. And at the same time, we sold a product which was vitamins and minerals called Dianazene. And the Dianazene had huge amounts of niacin in it, nicotinic acid.

The processes and accompanying the book, "All About Radiation," and the Dianazene -- its stated purpose to the membership and to the public was, "We now have the ability to eradicate or" -- in Scientology terms -- "run out all of your old tracks or past-track radiation experiences." That means that all of the space-opera wars you were into where they set off H-bombs seventy-four trillion years ago and all that, that these processes have this product called Dianazene, which was, simply, as I said, vitamins and minerals with huge amounts of niacin in it, which would produce these wild flushes.

Now if you take a great deal of niacin, you get these incredible flushes, like a rash. You get hot, your body would turn red in spots or over the whole thing. And this was proof that you were running out or eradicating all of your entire space-opera, old-track radiation. And the Dianazene and following the directions in the book guaranteed you proof against any radiation. That means, if somebody dropped an H-bomb today and you followed all of that, that you were proofed against radiation; it wouldn't hurt you. And so that is, I think, one of the major frauds in the mid-fifties concerning Scientology is about the radiation. All it was was niacin.

MR. LeCHER: I have two quick ones the attorney would like me to ask. How was the money carried out of the country? And in the organization, was it Hubbard's policy to have all the writings bear his name?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. He was Source. That must have been repeated fifty million times. "L. Ron Hubbard is Source. L. Ron Hubbard is Founder. L. Ron Hubbard is Creator." It is his game. "It is my game," he would say. "This is mine; it belongs to me." And everything that was written by anybody else -- and there are many little bits and pieces that were written by other people, and many of the processes and training drills, et cetera that were written and invented and created by other people -- but at all times it was L. Ron Hubbard. That was the only name attached to it. Even if we wrote policy letters and he would review them and then put his name on it. So that was one of his first, basic, standard orders at that time.

MR. LECHER: How was the money taken out of the country?

MR. DeWOLFE: There were several ways of doing it. The very first one that I know of was in late 1952, when he went to London where Diane was born. On September 24th he opened up, through permission of the Bank of England, what is called in England a Dollar Account. That means that it was a special account that you could put in and take out dollars.

MR. LECHER: Was that carried out in a shoebox or --

MR. DeWOLFE: Yeah. Well, they were carried out in checks. They were carried out in shoeboxes. I took a valise over one time, as I said, full of money that went into the account.

Now while other people may have been signatories and directors of other U.S. corporations, the only one that could sign on the Dollar Account was L. Ron Hubbard. So this was a way in the early fifties for the money to be siphoned out of the various organizations in the United States to England. And once it was there, he had absolute and total freedom to use it because of the nature of the account and the fact that he was the signatory on it.

MR. LECHER: Thank you. Mr. Calderbank, do you have some questions?

MR. CALDERBANK: Yes. Mr. DeWolfe, during the time that you were with your father from '48 up until '59, would you describe yourself as probably his closest person? Or were you, as his son and as a, would you say, co-founder in the various Dianetics and Scientology teachings --

MR. DeWOLFE: I would say I was very close, but I was not a co-founder. There is only one Founder. But as far as being close is concerned, yes. It was not from '48, though. It would have to be from the summer of 1952 is when it was incredibly close. Of course --

MR. CALDERBANK: You were his right-hand man and knew your father probably better than anyone else?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, me and Mary Sue. We were probably the closest workwise and even, as I said, living together in many different areas of the country.

MR. CALDERBANK: You said you weren't co-founder, but all during your testimony you said that --

MR. DeWOLFE:. Well, that's a very special term.

MR. CALDERBANK: Correct. But many of the --

MR. DeWOLFE: I did a lot of the things, but as I said, just answering your questions, the name of L. Ron Hubbard is on it.

MR. CALDERBANK: Right. But why, if many of the policies and ideas were yours and you came up with them, why are they all copyrighted to L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. DeWOLFE: Because he owns them. What I mean is there's only one Source, one Founder. He always insisted on that, regardless of whatever was done was him. And it really didn't make an awful lot of difference to me. If you look at it within the context of the time, it was rather immaterial to me.

MR. CALDERBANK: During the era of Dianetics, prior to it becoming the Church of Scientology, was auditing then a major money producer?



MR. DeWOLFE: That and Dianetic courses.

MR. CALDERBANK: Then, in 1953, it was changed to Scientology, and you went from Dianetic auditing to Scientology auditing?


MR. CALDERBANK: What was the --

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, actually, Scientology auditing started or occurred, as I said, in the summer of 1952 when he could no longer do anything with Dianetics again. That's where it started to become Scientology. It would be the summer of 1952 in Phoenix, Arizona.

MR. CALDERBANK: And my question is: The Dianetics auditing was guaranteed? It was scientific research, et cetera, et cetera?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. CALDERBANK: What was the difference between Scientology auditing and Dianetic auditing?

MR. DeWOLFE: Nothing at all --

MR. CALDERBANK: In the beginning?

MR. DeWOLFE: -- except I would say the greater increasing emphasis on space opera.

MR. CALDERBANK: Back in the Dianetics era, was your father using the confidential information to have people pay up for their courses?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. If people didn't pay, that was a fairly actionable offense, according to Dad.

MR. CALDERBANK: And he told them then, also, that it was in confidence that the auditing was taken?

MR. DeWOLFE: Oh, yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And he utilized it?

MR. DeWOLFE: If you had a copy of the Auditor's Code, that Auditor's Code is virtually the same.

MR. CALDERBANK: I guess the main reason that I see for you coming here is: We've heard testimony that many of the -- or, at least, one person spent up to $35- or $40,000.00 in the belief that your father was a nuclear physicist, et cetera. On what do you base your knowledge that he was none of these?

MR. DeWOLFE: By conversations with him and by conversations with my grandfather, my mother, my grandmother, other family members. Actually, our family, if you wanted to spread it out a little bit, is pretty well all over the United States. Plus, I have seen a variety of documents over the years, both his and others obtained. For instance, not being a nuclear physicist -- I've seen his transcript a long time ago, many years ago.

MR. CALDERBANK: And in addition to auditing, when it was used as a Dianetics procedure, what guarantees were given then? The same that are given now? In Scientology, it was guaranteed as a science to relieve and cure various cancers, various ailments?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct. Of course, some of the terminology changed, but I'm talking about actual -- de facto.

MR. CALDERBANK: During this time, did auditing or Dianetics ever pay taxes in the fifties when this was being used?

MR. DeWOLFE: If we did, we should have fought it. No, I don't think so.

MR. CALDERBAINK: And a statement recently in the media, I believe Reverend Wilhere said that your father, again, spent years and years of research in this auditing, and it's based on case histories and years of research. Just to sum it up, you're saying that none of this research existed? There's no data, no case histories? And as the person that knew your father the best during the evolution of Dianetics and Scientology, are sitting here and saying that what he's printed in books and what has brought many people to pay for it into Clearwater is untrue?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. CALDERBANK: No more questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. DeWolfe, if I understood your testimony yesterday, the allegations or statements as to your father's education, you answered "No" to most of those. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, sir, I can't hear you.

MR. BERFIELD: Yesterday, a list of schools and studies that your father had undertaken, you answered "No" to them. And if I could read for you a book called "Dianetics," on page 138 it refers to your father having studied science and mathematics at George Washington University, graduating from Columbia College, attending Princeton University, and attaining a degree as Doctor of Philosophy from Sequoia University. Your answer was "No" to each of those. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: It was "No" to the point of Sequoia University. As I explained yesterday, Sequoia University was a diploma mill and you just wrote to them.

MR. BERFIELD: And Mr. Calderbank just got through asking you about another one, "All About Radiation." On the flyleaf of it, it makes reference to "L. Ron Hubbard, one of America's first nuclear physicists." What --

MR. DeWOLFE: That's not true.

MR. BERFIELD: All of these would be lying with the exception of Doctor of Philosophy?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. BERFIELD: So, if I relied upon his ability to render service to me based upon this, that would be a falsehood. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: Correct.

MR. BERFIELD: In other words, it would be more or less a fraud upon the public. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: Correct.

MR. BERFIELD: Let me ask you a few other questions here. Now, like Mr. Hatchett said, your story here sounds so interesting it sounds almost like Howard Hughes.

MR. DeWOLFE: That's a very close analogy there, believe me.

MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever testified before any other groups, any governmental agencies or groups similar to this, legislative groups?

MR. DeWOLFE: No, I haven't, sir. I just testified for the IRS in the sixties. I don't have the date, but it was --

MR. BERFIELD: I was trying to find it here, and I cannot confront you with it, but somewhere that you had given or sworn an oath or testimony and then reneged on it. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct. Yes, that's correct. I was talking about 1971, 1972. That's where I had signed a statement which, at the time, I did not believe. But anyhow, that was that. I didn't feel, in my own mind, I didn't feel that I was able to recant something I had put under oath without the recant itself being equal under the law, and it wasn't equal under the law, as far as I was concerned -- the recant.

MR. BERFIELD: All right. What I'm trying to get in my mind is: If you testified under oath before, what assurance do we have that you're not going to recant on this? Was there some undue pressure --

MR. DeWOLFE: I'm not going --

MR. BERFIELD: -- put on you or something?


MR. BERFIELD: Was there undue pressure put on you or something that caused you to recant that?


MR. BERFIELD: Can you tell us about it?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I was trying, as I said, to explain that earlier, just before the break. But the testimony that I supposedly recanted, or the recant statement that I made, was a very generalized statement, as I remember.
The testimony that I gave in the IRS case, in general, was pretty well confined to a very limited space in time of the organization, insofar as its financial dealings were concerned, and like, for instance, how much money I had received and how much money during a certain time period, that I knew the Church had received. So, that's about what I remember of it.

MR. BERFIELD: I guess it's still not clear in my mind. Was there any pressure put on you to rescind or recant or withdraw --

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. At the time, as I said, in 1971, 1972, it was a very traumatic experience. I was not really in a position to defend myself at that time. Scientology was very, very strong and, also, my children were very small. One of the reasons I'm here today is that five of my six children are up and on their own, and they're very well able to take care of themselves. There is enough of what I have said already available to the press and to government and other kinds of people, so that it would be absolutely useless to try to do anything against me or force me to try to say something different or recant.

MR. BERFIELD: Let me go a step further. Are you saying that there was duress or some undue influence that they put upon you at that time?


MR. BERFIELD: Is that, basically, just the children that you were talking about earlier?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I was worried about myself and my wife, too.

MR. BERFIELD: What, other than the photograph, did they do to --

MR. DeWOLFE: Phone calls in the night. I would actually have to sit down and remember all of it. It was really quite a confused mess at the time. And you really have a proper question there: Will I recant in the future? I'd have to say, absolutely not.

MR. BERFIELD: All right. Thus far, you've been talking about the period up to '59, early '60, and you did testify based upon firsthand experience. But since that period of time, have you had any contact with Scientologists?

MR. DeWOLFE: I've had off and on contact with people that had been in Scientology or in and around the whole subject matter. But insofar as this direct observation within the organization or anything else, of course not, no.

MR. BERFIELD: So you really couldn't say whether the criminal activities or some of these other training activities were continuing. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: As to direct, personal knowledge, no.

MR. BERFIELD: There are a couple of other things here that I'm not too sure about. I believe you testified that you were using drugs or high on drugs when you wrote, I can't remember, one of the books, whether it was Beginning of Man or whether it was one of them. Do you use drugs?

MR. DeWOLFE: Do I use drugs?


MR. DeWOLFE: No. I use, of course, prescription stuff. But no, I quit all. of that when I left.

MR. BERFIELD: At the time you were in the Church, you said that your father was totally in charge.

MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the --

MR. BERFIELD: During the period of time that you were associated with Scientologists, you said that your father was totally in charge.

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. 13ERFIELD: Could you testify, to the best of your opinion, whether he still is in complete control of the Church or Scientology?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, assuming he's alive.

MR. BERFIELD: Why do you say that?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, I really don't know. In the many, many years and experiences of being around him, he said that he resigned in 1966, but that was a paper shuffle. He was so focused on being in absolute and full control at all times that I just cannot see him ever changing that.

MR. BERFIELD: Now, I also understand you to say that this book here was really was not your father's possession at all times, is that correct? That someone else had copyrights or something to it? It's Dianetics.

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. That was the Dianetic Research Foundation, Don G. Purcell, correct.

MR. BERFIELD: A personal question --

MR. DeWOLFE: Oh, not that particular book, I'm sorry. Is it Dianetics: Evolution of Science? Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health is the one I'm referring to.

MR. BERFIELD: From your own personal knowledge, has Scientology ever helped you with any of your illnesses or sicknesses?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. I learned I had to wear glasses since I was twelve. And during Scientology, he wouldn't let me wear them, so I had migraine headaches. But after I learned that they wouldn't handle that, I wore them.

MR. BERFIELD: I believe this question's been asked earlier but are you aware of anybody that has been cured by Scientology?


MR. BERFIELD: As a layman, and this is very hard for you to do, but take yourself out and just go into Scientology to begin with, would you believe the information that's in this book?


MR. BERFIELD: Knowing what you do know about Scientology and what has been alleged about Mr. Hubbard and what he can do for you, would you believe what's in this book?


MR. BERFIELD: You would believe what's in this book?

MR. DeWOLFE: If I was from the outside --

MR. BERFIELD: No, no. Excuse me. I'll repeat the question. Knowing what you now know about Scientology --

MR. DeWOLFE: Oh, sorry. No.

MR. BERFIELD: -- would you believe that they could cure your illnesses and --

MR. DeWOLFE: Knowing what I know?

MR. BERFIELD: Knowing what you know.

MR. DeWOLFE: No, they couldn't.

MR. BERFIELD: One other thing -- and I may be on touchy ground here but -- during the period of the fifties when there was so much conversation about the E-Meter, why the vacillation back and forth about using the E-Meter? It either was important or it wasn't important.

MR. DeWOLFE: It was very important, but it was a matter of ownership. Bob Mathieson and my father couldn't come to terms as to the continued use of the E-Meter in 1951 and '52. And then, my father, since he could not control totally the E-Meter or come to terms, quit using it and invented processes which didn't require the E-Meter until later on, as I mentioned earlier, Don Green and Joe Wallace created one in Washington, D.C. in the mid-fifties.
But that's the vacillation. Simply, it was based on ownership and control.

MR. BERFIELD: Just two last questions here and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but if I understood you correctly, it is your testimony that your father still sets corporate policy for Scientology?

MR. DeWOLFE: I would have to say yes, just simply because of the long term, having experience with him.

MR. BERFIELD: This question really may have been said, too, but this one follows along that line. In your estimation, if somebody violated that corporate policy, would there be any punishment?

MR. DeWOLFE: I would say yes. He would control things, yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Then, I come back to put the last nail in the coffin: This book or any other book -- this one on "All About Radiation" -- how would you describe that as far as the public is concerned?

MR. DeWOLFE: I don't know quite what you mean.

MR. BERFIELD: Would you say that it's a factual book that they could rely upon or fraud or what?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. It's a complete fraud. There's not a thing in there that is workable.

MR. BERFIELD: If this book was being sold in Clearwater, if I understand your testimony, this is something that would be a fraud upon the people of Clearwater. Is that correct?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, yes. It is guaranteeing that it's going to rid you of radiation or make you radiation proof, and that's a scientific impossibility as we know it today.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Mrs. Garvey, would you like to ask some questions?

MRS. GARVEY: Just some clarification on the use of the E-Meter: The Dianetic Research Institute was set up as a scientific research institute? The Dianetic Research Institute was what? Was it a scientific research institute?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. The Dianetic Research Foundation was set up ostensibly for research, but it was more or less a place where people could come to train to be an auditor. It's the same as a mission today or what we called them, centers, where you were trained and you received auditing.

MRS. GARVEY: But it was not intended to be a religious institute at all?

MR. DeWOLFE: None whatsoever.

MRS. GARVEY: There was no religion attached to it. But the exact same E-Meter and auditor is now being used by a religious institute?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. Of course, there are different models over the years.

MRS. GARVEY: Right. But it's the same basic concept?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, correct.

MRS. GARVEY: One of the things that Mr. Walters told us earlier is the reason people are joining or going in with Scientology is because of the fantastic background of Mr. Hubbard, you know, he's a nuclear Physicist, you know, all the really great things that he has done. Why did the people join in 1950 or '51, '52, '53?

MR. DeWOLFE: The same basic reasons. The same self-created mystique. The same biographical data created by him. Plus you must realize that there's that old thing of being able to do anything, being completely free, having total and complete power over yourself. And you have that promise to be what you want to be, fly through space, and be completely free of your subconscious mind.

MRS. GARVEY: So, what you're saying is when he wrote the first book, Dianetics, he used that background then?


MRS. GARVEY: Before you left, were there any of these policies that you talked about that weren't written. Were any of those written by the time you left in '59, or were they still unwritten policies?

MR. DeWOLFE: Well, on that aspect, I can't recall if --


MR. DeWOLFE: They may have been written in different forms and slightly different words. I would really have to review it. Please keep in mind that I've heard enough, I guess, during the fifties to pack into ten or twenty lifetimes. And so, you're dealing, also, with, you know, maybe a few hundred million words.

MRS. GARVEY: You just can't remember whether or not there was anything written?

MR. DeWOLFE: Anything really specific about it.

MRS. GARVEY: Thank you.

MR. DeWOLFE: I mean as it was described in books.

MRS. GARVEY: Oh, one last thing: Hubbard supposedly claims that the Church is owing him millions of dollars because of all the research that he has done for Scientology. Is that true? Is that what he --

MR. DeWOLFE: He did that as a business ploy and as a tax ploy, that he was owed all of this money and he never made anything, quote, unquote, was the public type of statement that he made about that.

MRS. GARVEY: But obviously, if he didn't do any research --

MA. DeWOLFE: That kept increasing to where he'd walk in and say, "Well, the Church owes me $100,000.00." But it got up to thirteen million. It started out as one or two million.

MRS. GARVEY: But what you're saying is that he, in fact, did not do any research, so nothing is owed to him?

MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct.

MR. LeCHER: If you had to sum up your testimony given to us today, what message would you like to leave with this Commission?

MR. DeWOLFE: Wow. I think the message I would leave with you is to stay the hell out of hell.

MR. LeCHER: Stay the hell out of hell. Thank you.

MR. FLYNN: Mayor, I now have some documents that I'd like to introduce.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like the witness to stay here. He may be able to help us with the documents or if we want to question him about any of the documents. Then, we'll get on to the next witness.

MR. FLYNN: I believe we're up to Exhibit 20; is that correct?


MR. FLYNN: Exhibit 20 -- if we could place it on the projector -- is a transcript of the grades of Lafayette Ronald Hubbard from the George Washington University. (A copy of a transcript from George Washington University was marked as Exhibit No. 20, as of this date.)

MR. GREENE: This exhibit shows that Mr. Hubbard completed three semesters at George Washington University. I'd like to direct your attention to --

MR. LeCHER: Can you get it off the ceiling?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. GREENE: I might direct your attention to the last entry in the left-hand column: In Nuclear and Atomic Physics, Hubbard received an F. The faculty took action, which is indicated in the lower right-hand corner of the exhibit, if you could move it up on the screen. Mr. Hubbard was on probation when he returned in September of 1931.
Again, directing your attention to the left-hand column, in Mathematics/Calculus, Hubbard received an F.

MR. CALDERBANK: Was there any Physics or any other complex science on the document? Did he take any courses --

MR. GREENE: The document speaks for itself, Mr. Calderbank. It appears that I pointed out physics courses, that course that he took, that he received an F in. He had a mathematics course above that that he received an F in.

MR. FLYNN: May the record reflect that the exhibit indicates that there were two Ds, three Fs. And three semesters would be a year and-a-half. The next exhibit, number 21, is a Navy biographical outline of Mr. Hubbard's naval career. (A copy of a biographical outline from the U.S. Navy was marked as Exhibit No. 21, as of this date.)

MR. FLYNN: Mr. Greene will indicate relevant portions of it.

MR. GREENE: This was an Information Request submitted to the Department of the Navy. It indicates on page one his ships and station in the lower left-hand corner of the page, that station being in Washington, D.C. And if you trace through on page two of the exhibit, the ships and station, you'll see Mr. Hubbard spent approximately sixteen weeks in Melbourne, Australia. That appears at the third entry down from the top of the page. Aside from that foreign duty, his entire involvement with the Navy, he was stationed, as station or a ship, here in the United States: New York, Oregon, California, New Jersey. On the lower part of that page, you'll see that he attended the Naval Training School at Princeton, New Jersey. Just below that, you'll see an entry for the Naval Hospital, Oak Knoll, California for a period of time: September '45 through December '45, December 4, '45.

MR. CALDERBANK: To sum up the document, how much time does this document show that he actually spent in active duty/combat during the World War II time span?

MR. FLYNN: The document indicates that he didn't spend any time in any combat and, in fact, he never received any war wounds in any type of combat. The next document is a Ship's Log of a ship that Mr. Hubbard served on, which is going to be marked as Exhibit No. 22. (A copy of a Ship's Log was marked as Exhibit No. 22, as of this date.)

MR. GREENE: This is a confidential log. You'll see it appears at the top of the left-hand corner of the page. The ship's name was the ALGOL, A-L-G-O-L. I'd like to direct your attention to the entry at 16:30, the left-hand column toward the bottom of the page, that last paragraph, which reads as follows: "The navigating officer reported to the OOD that an attempt at sabotage had been made sometime between 15:30 through 16:00. A coke bottle filled with gasoline with a cloth wick inserted had been concealed along cargo. It was to be hoisted aboard and stowed in Number One Hold. It was discovered before being taken aboard. ONI, FDI, NSD authorities reported on the scene and investigations were started." In the lower right-hand corner of the page appears Mr. Hubbard's signature as the navigator, the navigating officer. Page two of that exhibit -- if you raise that exhibit*, you'll see it in the lower right-hand corner of the page. If you look, you'll see Mr. Hubbard's signature there as the navigator. Page two of that exhibit, could we have that placed on the overhead projector? There'll be the date in the upper right-hand corner, Thursday, September 28th, 1944. It's the following day, and I'd like to direct your attention to the entry 16:20, last paragraph on the page. "Orders before 16:35 pursuant to DuPers dispatch dated 27 September at 22:144. Lieutenant Lafayette Ron Hubbard D/BS, USNR 113392 was this date detached from duties aboard this vessel. He transferred from present duty under instruction to the University of Princeton, New Jersey. "19:40: 32nd unit U.S. Naval Construction Batallion returned aboard to resume loading."

MR. LeCHER: Why is it significant about the coke bottle, the wick, and the return to Princeton?

MR. FLYNN: Mr. Hubbard -- the ALGOL sailed into combat approximately three days after this event, and it received its orders to go into combat sometime before that, which Mr. Hubbard was aware of. And Mr. Hubbard is the one who found the coke bottle and, just before the ship went into combat, he was relieved of duty.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Thank you.

MR. FLYNN: And as the record will indicate, shortly after that, he went to the Oak Knoll Military Hospital.

MR. LeCHER: Yes, sir.

MR. BERFIELD: Just one question: Do you have anything there to validate that the two are connected?

MR. FLYNN: We don't have any evidence to validate who placed the coke bottle. We have evidence to validate that the ship went into combat. We have evidence, as you've just seen, to validate that Mr. Hubbard was relieved from duty within twenty-four hours after the coke bottle was found by him, as you have just seen. The next exhibit, number 23, is a letter of October 16th from Mr. Hubbard to the Veteran's Administration. (A copy of a letter to the Veteran's Administration was marked as Exhibit No. 23, as of this date.)

MR. GREENE: This letter is dated October 16, 1947 from Lafayette Ronald Hubbard: "Gentlemen" directed to the Veteran's Administration --"This is a request for treatment. My residence is north of Hollywood, but I attend school at Drama Theater Workshop, Fairfax and Wilshire, Los Angeles. It would be appreciated if any out physician selected would be located near my school, as I have a vacant hour and a half from one to two-thirty four days each week at school. I work at night six days per week. I was placed on a certain medication back East and have continued it at my own expense. After trying and failing for two years to regain my equilibrium in civil life, I am utterly unable to approach anything like my own competence. My last physician informed me that it might be very helpful if I were to be examined and, perhaps, treated psychiatrically or even by a psychoanalyst. Toward the end of my service, I avoided out of pride any mental examinations, hoping that time would balance a mind, which I had every reason to suppose was seriously affected. I cannot account for nor rise above long periods of moroseness and suicidal inclinations, and have nearly come to realize that I must first triumph above this before I can hope to rehabilitate myself at all. I cannot leave school or what little work I am doing for hospitalization due to many obligations, but I feel I might be treated outside possibly with success. I cannot myself afford such treatment. Would you please help me? Sincerely, L. Ron Hubbard."

MRS. GARVEY: The date on this is?

MR. GREM: October 16, 1947 appears on the upper right-hand corner of this letter.

MRS. GARVEY: And Dianetics came out in 1950? The first Dianetic book came out when?

MR. DeWOLFE: 1950.

MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, I have a question: Through any testimony -- and this appears to be a court document-- was it ever established that was his signature or do --

MR. FLYNN: That's a document that was -- that has appeared in a number of court proceedings. And Mr. Hubbard here could authenticate the signature, if necessary, and the document was seized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

MR. BERFIELD: Would you put that back up there again, please? Would you look at that document, Mr. DeWolfe, and say for sure whether that is your father's signature?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. I've seen it many thousands of times. His signature, I mean. I don't mean this --

MR. LeCHER: How did you get these documents in your possession, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYNN: The documents have been available to the public for one period of time, during a nine-month sealing period in the United States, Federal District Court in Washington, D.C. During that period of time, we obtained possession of many of them. We have also obtained possession of many of them through various court proceedings.
The documents are now on file and were placed on file with this city and before this Commission back in September. And they have all been a matter of public record since last September within this city. The next exhibit, number 24, is a xeroxed copy of the biographical outline of Mr. Hubbard from the book, Dianetics: The Original Thesis, which Mr. Berfield and Mr. Calderbank were referring to earlier. (A copy of the biographical outline from Dianetics: The Original ThesiE was marked as Exhibit No. 24, as of this date.)

MR. FLYNN- And rather than place the book into evidence, we are going to put a xeroxed copy of it into evidence. And Mr. Greene will read from a portion of that biography.

MR. GREENE: Again, this is from Exhibit 24, page 158: "L. Ron Hubbard. Scientology was developed by L. Ron Hubbard, a writer and philosopher. It was completed after thirty-five years of research. Hubbard was born in Tilden, Nebraska on March 13, 1911. Much of Hubbard's early youth was spent in the American West, and he traveled extensively in Asia as a young man.

"He studied science and mathematics at George Washington University, graduating from Columbian College." Columbian College, as you may know, is the undergraduate Arts and Science Program at George Washington University.

"He attended Princeton University and obtained a degree as Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D., from Sequoia University.

"Before World War II, he was well known in exploration-circles and is to this day a member of the Explorers Club. He wrote and published over fifteen million words of articles and novels of all kinds before World War II. During that war, he served as Commander of Corps Vettes and was extensively decorated. Crippled and blind at the end of the war, he resumed his studies in philosophy and by his discoveries recovered so fully that he was reclassified in 1949 for full combat duty.

"It is a matter of medical record that he has twice been pronounced dead, and in 1950 he was given a perfect score on mental and physical fitness reports. Revolted by war and man's inhumanity to man, he resigned his commission rather than assist the government-research projects."

Dropping-down some paragraphs: "Unlike any other philosopher at any age, Hubbard has led a very full and adventurous life. He has been the hero in numerous novels and even of a famous motion picture. Probably no philosopher of modern times.has had the popularity and appeal of Hubbard or such startling successes in his own lifetime."

MR. LeCHER: What famous motion picture does he appear as the hero in?

MR. DeWOLFE: None. I think that the motion picture that he may be referring to is Mister Roberts; that was a rumor that he spread around. But he had no connection with the movie, nor the play, nor the character Mister Roberts.

MRS. GARVEY: It says there that he was given a perfect score on mental and physical fitness reports. Is he currently getting-disability checks from the federal government?

MR. FLYNN: If you know.

MR. DeWOLFE: I don't know. I do know that he continued to receive them throughout the early fifties. I remember in '54 and '55 'in Washington, D.C., he got one every month. I don't believe -- it was somewhere between $80 and $140.00 a month.

MRS. GARVEY: So, if he was receiving disability checks, he can't, obviously, be in perfect mental and physical shape.

MR. DeWOLFE: Correct.

MRS. GARVEY: That's unusual.

MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. DeWolfe, so that people don't misinterpret your testimony and what is being presented here as a personal attack on L. Ron Hubbard, do you personally know of thousands of dollars, both in Dianetics
and Scientology, that was paid based on the information in the books, his biography, and his background, his research; is that right?

MR. DeWOLFE: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you understand the weight of your testimony is that -- because, if many people are spending thousands of dollars daily here in Clearwater, based on his background, based solely just on the representations made in books, published and written articles, in verbal communication and you're now saying that each of these is false?

MR. DeWOLFE: Correct.

MR. BERFIELD: Along that same line, Mr. DeWolfe, his comments that he was blind and had total recovery, did he ever address that subject to you?

MR. DeWOLFE: He's never been blind, to my knowledge, during the -- are you talking about being blind?

MR. BERFIELD: Yes, sir, wounded or -

MRS. GARVEY: You never questioned him about that?

MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, what?

MRS. GARVEY: You never questioned him about that, that part of his biography?

MR. DeWOLFE: There were times during the fifties that were periods that he had been away from me - And
because of his incredible charisma - what did I know if he said he had been blinded and now he could see? But this, to my knowledge, he's never been blinded and always had pretty decent eyesight.

MR. BERFIELD: I have a question to the counselor: Do you have copies of his medical records?

MR. FLYNN: No, we don't. However, we do have copies of the outline of his naval career, which has been introduced into evidence, which we just went through. And it may be helpful if the Commission took that exhibit and each one of you scrutinize it so- that you can see precisely where he was at various times. In addition to that, we have some evidence of the discharge from the Oak Knoll Military Hospital, which we will be introducing, which shows that he suffered from a duodenal ulcer.

MR. CALDERBANK: You've never ever seen any records or case histories, a compiling of data, that your father did to verify any of the claims that he's made in Dianetics or auditing?

MR. DeWOLFE: No. I knew he had an ulcer.

MR. HATCHETT: Pardon me. You did say he had an ulcer? I didn't hear you.


MR. HATCHETT: Yes, he had an ulcer?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, he had an ulcer.

MR. HATCHETT: I didn't hear you. Thank you.

MR. DeWOLFE: He drank copious amounts of that milky, chalky stuff that the Navy -

MR. LeCHER: Like Maalox?

MR. DeWOLFE: Yes. But it was far more unpleasant than that.

MR. LeCHER: Can we get to the next document?

MR. FLYNN:, Yes. To speed things up here a little bit, what I will do is I'll mark two more biographical sketches of similar type as exhibits. The top one will be Exhibit 25 and the next one will be Exhibit 26.
(A copy of a biographical sketch was marked as Exhibit No. 25, as of this date;
A copy of a biographical sketch was marked as Exhibit No. 26, as of this date.)

MR. FLYNN: And then, we'll mark the cover of the book, All About Radiation.
(The cover of the book, All About Radiation, was marked as Exhibit No. 27, as of this date.)

MR. FLYNN: As you can see in another biographical sketch, it basically says the same thing: he is a graduate of George Washington University, Columbian College, which is the undergraduate school, and he gives hi's - - he represents himself to be a student at Princeton. Well, in fact, as I indicated to you at the outset, the only training he had at Princeton, and as Mr. DeWolfe testified, was connected with his naval training during-World War II,- which -- he was at no point a part of Princeton University as an undergraduate student.

And the cover of the book, if we could put that on so that everyone can see the representations right on the cover of the book, All About Radiation, it states that it is by a nuclear physicist and a medical doctor. It doesn't really appear that well on the projector, but, as you can see, that representation is held out right on the cover of the book.
And, in fact, if you open the book, there is no name of any-doctor in the book. Under the the book is divided into two
sections, Book I and Book II. Book I is apparently written by a medical doctor as has been held out to be on the
cover, and at the bottom of the page the only thing that appears is "By Medicus," which is a Latin term that means
medical. But there's no name of any medical doctor in this book who supposedly co- authored the book. But the
inference is clear on the front that it was written by a medical doctor and a nuclear physicist.

And Mr. Hubbard would like -- wants to testify as to who wrote-the entire book.

MR. LeCHER: Who wrote the entire book, sir, about radiation?

MR. DeWOLFE: L. Ron Hubbard.

MR. LeCHER: L. Ron Hubbard. And he is not a medical doctor?

MR. FLYNN: You might want to answer that: Is your father a medical doctor?

MR. DeWOLFE: Is my father a medical doctor? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

MR. LeCHER: Is your father a medical doctor?

MR. DeWOLFE: No, nor is he a nuclear physicist.

MR. LeCHER: Has he ever been to any medical school in a foreign land? Has he ever been to a medical school in a foreign land like Mexico, England.

MR. DeWOLFE: No, never.

MR. LeCHER: Okay. Thank you. These hearings are really not appear to being a personal attack on your father. We're trying to get to the bottom of this to understand why he is so credible to so many people. Apparently, he has no background to back up his opinion of himself. I'm glad you were able to come to speak to us today and yesterday, sir.
Is there anything you'd like to
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Part 3 of 6


MR. FLYNN: The next witness is Lori Taverna.

MR. LeCHER: Lori -- Miss Taverna; is that correct?

MS. TAVERNA: That's right.

MR. LeCHER: Will you please be sworn in by our City Clerk, Mrs. Williams?

LORI TAVERNA, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Your name is Lori, L-o-r-i T-a-v-e-r-n-a. I will ask you the same five basic questions that we have asked every other witness. The first one is: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes, I am.

MR. LeCHER: Number two: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than for the expense of coming to Clearwater?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I haven't.

MR. LeCHER: Number three: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't.

MR. LeCHER: Number four: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Number five: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Would you like to make a statement, or would you how would you like to proceed?

MS. TAVERNA: Well --

MR. LeCHER: Start with your background; we'd like to hear that, first.

MS. TAVERNA: Okay. It's a little hard for me to summarize my years in Scientology, but I'll try to get it together. I'm very nervous right now.

MR. LeCHER: Well, don't be.


MR. LeCHER: We're nice people.

MRS. GARVEY: Bring the mike up.

MR. LeCHER: Bring the mike up so that the people can hear you in the back ofthe room and we can hear you up here, and it will all be audible.

MS. TAVERNA: Okay. Basically, I've been in Scientology for seventeen years. I came in sometime in June 1965. 1 attended a free lecture, and in that lecture I was told about the active mind, how it affects people, and there's a state known as clear where you can be rid of this mind and rid yourself of all psychosomatic illness, all irrational behavior, be totally free, IQ would be raised, and so forth. It sounded very good to me. It sounded like something I was looking for. Part of the aims of Scientology were a world without crime, without -- I forgot already without war, crime, insanity. And I had two small children, and I just thought it was something to make a better world. And I decided to find out more about it.

After -- then, in the next few years, I took courses; I became an auditor, which is a counselor; I became trained as a supervisor to train other auditors. I read about Ron Hubbard, about his past, that he was blind and crippled in the war, that he was restored to health by his own techniques from his research, that I became very dedicated to Ron Hubbard. I felt that he was I guess in a way, supernatural or the greatest person I'd ever heard of. I'm just going to look at my notes.

MR. LeCHER: Certainly. You can follow your outline or your notes, if you prefer.

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I just took some notes on background. The rest I'll just follow from my outline

MR. LeCHER: Certainly.

MS. TAVERNA: -- here. Oh, then, I worked on staff for many years after that as an auditor and training supervisor. I got paid about -- between $3.00 and $10.00 a week for this. And money wasn't important to me, because I felt the purpose was a good purpose.

I also felt a responsibility. Like, in Scientology if you're not contributing, you feel guilty. And I wanted to help, so, most of the years, I had worked as a staff member.

I also felt that -- it's sort of said in a lot of the writings of Scientology that it is the only thing that can save this planet from destruction. There's a lot of talk against the medical profession, mental health, and enemies of Scientology: the government, the CIA. I had started to feel that it was us against them. And then I stopped associating with people not in Scientology because I felt they didn't understand. They wouldn't -- I couldn't communicate with them. So, basically, it became a larger part of my life.

Oh, and Ron Hubbard was worshipped by many people; he was looked at as a god. I never actually worshipped him but anything he said I believed to be true. After so many years, it made sense to me. Whatever he said, any orders he gave were followed without any question.

I got divorced from my husband in about 1971 1 would say, mainly, because he wasn't a Scientologist. I felt he didn't want to help, he didn't want to contribute and so forth, and a lot of distance developed between us because of this. I traveled to England, to Spain, Los Angeles, and did all these upper levels as a highly-trained auditor. I'll give specifics of what I did up until now, briefly.

MR. LeCHER: Sure.

MS. TAVERNA: In 1971, 1 went to the Professional Supervisors' School in Los Angeles, and I did the course in two weeks. And then, I saw a telex from Ron Hubbard which said all people doing training had to do a training drill called TR 0, which is a communication drill where you sit and confront another person. You don't speak, you don't move; you don't do anything like that. Now, he added in his telex that you're not allowed to blink.

So, I questioned the telex that was shown to me, then, I was word cleared, which means in Scientology there's a rule that if you disagree with any of the technology, you have to have a misunderstood word. So, I was word cleared, and they said, "No, Ron Hubbard said blinkless." I felt it was very natural to blink and it wasn't a distraction to being there. So, we had to -- oh, you had to do it for two hours. You had to sit in a chair, confront another person, and not blink your eyes for a two-hour period. It was timed on a clock.

So, I stayed there for three months, and I did this drill seven days a week, from eight in the morning till eleven at night. Students accumulated there for many months because no one was passing this. Duress was placed on the students.. There was a Commanding Officer who walked around with a nightstick and he would bang it on the table and say, "You're going to pass today."

A lot of students went psychotic. Some students fainted during this. Many students had no more white left in their eyes; it almost looked like they were bleeding.

I realized at this point -- this is back in 1971 that people were insane there. I tried to talk to the Ethics Officer, talked to people and say, "Something is wrong here." I was labeled a troublesome student; I was put in a separate room. They said to "Take Lori Taverna out of the room, we'll get some passes."

So, they started passing people who weren't doing this. They passed people with tears running down their eyes. I said, "You either do it or you don't do it." But after three months, Ron Hubbard came out with a bulletin, which was called "TR Breakthrough." He saw, I imagine, that no one was passing, and he said, "We no longer have time requirements on TR 0. You do it until you achieve the end result." So, at that point, everyone went home.

Something else happened during this time in '71. I was approached by Bruce Raymond, who was a member of the Guardian's Office. He asked me if I would -- he said I was chosen to be a secret agent. He said he had a dossier on me; he went to rattle off my whole life history. He said I was chosen because I had an excellent Ethics record, that I was well respected and knew I was a good person. He was in a special division of the Guardian's Office to protect Ron Hubbard's life.

I was very confused. I was also frightened because I didn't know who he was exactly or who I was dealing with. But I thought if this was the real purpose -- you know, I loved Ron Hubbard very much -- and I said if I could do something to help him I will. He gave me a code name, and I was to use a post office box on my return to New York and we would communicate through this post office box.

He said if I ever divulged this that he would -- I would be dealt with severely. And he said he would see that I was declared what they call Type 3 PTS, which means that you're psychotic and that they would see that I would be committed, and he would deny ever speaking to me.

So, that's the only thing in Scientology that ever really frightened me. I went back to New York. I did communicate one or two times through this post office box. I was sent documents, some kind of training manual on how to do espionage, how to be an undercover agent. I studied it, sent it back. I passed the course. And I got my first assignment, which I looked at and I felt was so absurd that I just didn't want to be a part of it.

It said something -- I don't remember exactly something to the effect that I was to go to different areas of Manhattan and see if I spot anyone wearing black clothes. And it was just so absurd to me, I said, you know, I just couldn't bring myself to do this. And I was to see if they were wearing partly black clothes or totally black clothes.

So, I just ripped up the orders. And then, I was frightened that something was going to happen to me because I wasn't cooperating. So, I just put all the things into my bathtub and burned all the things. I never communicated to them again. But I was left with the feeling that I would be approached again. But nothing happened with it.

I didn't see Bruce Raymond again till 1972 or 1973. A very good friend of mine told me that he was selected to do a Guardian's Office project and he was meeting someone at my apartment, and it turned out to be Bruce Raymond. And when I opened the door, I almost fainted because I had this earlier fear, and now he was in my house. He came with a girl named Kathy Savas. I had to leave the room because the Guardian's office was very secretive.

He did this project. He told me when he was doing it. Then, after he did it -- I'm sure he was bonded and everything, but we were very close -- he told me what he did. He said, "I had to go into a building in Manhattan mid-town and I had to get someone's fingerprints on a blank piece of paper or an envelope." He said it was a woman's fingerprints, someone who wrote a book against Scientology. And he said, "I don't know why I had to do this." He said, "But it must have been something very important because I was treated like a hero." He said they were all making a very big fuss over this, and he was awarded auditing as a reward for doing this project.

That's all I know about that. But if I just -- it came back to my memory when I remembered about Paulette Cooper. I assume it might have been Paulette Cooper, because I think something was done like that. And I felt very spooked and hurt that this friend of mine did it because he's now dead -- he died in 1975 -- but he was part of something very illegal and corrupt and he was never told what he was doing. And he was never part of the Guardian's Office.

I've been in so many years that I probably could. talk a lot, so I'm going to try to summarize. So, I was kind of upset because I have three children and I'm divorced, so I never could make enough money to support my children properly. So, I would leave staff for a little while, get my business going, be successful. And just as I was doing really well, there was an event in New York, and there was a project called Operation Z.

This was a program to train people to disseminate Scientology on a large scale to thousands of people at a time. And it was supposed to be public lecturing to beginning new people to explain what it is. We were told that you didn't have to have a contract to an organization or be part of the organization, because I was unhappy as a staff member and I didn't want to do that. He said the training would take two weeks, you would go to Clearwater when you returned, you'll be paid approximately $700.00 a week. He said that they already had Madison Square Garden booked and John Travolta was going to be there giving the seminars..

This made me very happy, because I felt that Scientology could be delivered properly and to reach people, because at this time I felt it was the greatest thing in the world. Even though there were outnesses all these years, it's hard to describe why I stayed in, but I felt that people in it were not duplicating the technology properly. I said, "Well, this is something good." I signed up immediately; I dropped everything. I paid my rent a month in advance, I had my children taken care of, and I was on the plane. I came to Clearwater in 1978, it was June.

When I got here, I found out it was not exactly as the fellow had said. Things weren't organized; it wasn't all ready to go. They had people here who were in Scientology two weeks, they weren't trained. They wouldn't be able to deliver this to the public.

After a couple of weeks, I saw the project was going nowhere, and I took over as the Ops Z Trainer. I fled, and I was trying to get this project off the ground.

Anyway, instead of two weeks, I ended up staying here three months in Clearwater. I had accumulated a couple of thousand dollars in debts at home because my business collapsed. I had someone running it for me, but it didn't work out. My children had to go back to school in September. And I didn't want to stay anymore because nothing was true of what was told to me.

Also, when I got here, I was very, very shocked to see Fort Harrison. The only thing I'd ever seen was a brochure showing pools and cabanas. And Flag is promoted to Scientologists as the greatest place on the planet, the safest place. It's something like going to heaven; everyone wants to come here.

I was brought to the room when I first arrived it was in the evening, and I was shown to a room at Fort Harrison. And I went to open the door and I couldn't open the door. And I looked in. And the girl who brought me there who had recruited me for this said the light was broke and we couldn't put the light on. And I kind of squeezed in the door. There was luggage all over the floor. There was literally no room to walk on the floor.

I said, "You have to be kidding." I said, you know, "This is my room." She said, "Well, I'm very embarrassed. We'll see if we can do something better tomorrow." I said, "I don't feel that I could sleep in here." But there was no other place. So, I climbed over things. I couldn't open my suitcase, I just piled it on something else.

There were ten beds in the room, four bunks on each side and, then, two bunks against another wall. The room was very small, I don't know, twenty feet -- a small room. There was no walking space. The fourth bunk was about this high from the ceiling so that -- and that's where I had climbed up to; there was no ladder.

I stayed there that night. And the next day they gave me another room which had, I think, eight beds. But this room was a little bit more orderly because the people in it decided amongst themselves that they would take responsibility and keep it clean. So, I stayed there. For the rest of my stay, I stayed in that room.

Anyway, I left there. I went home. And I had to leave my apartment because I didn't have any money at this time and live with somebody until I started working again. And soon after that, I got back in shape and got another apartment.

I didn't have anything to do with Scientology after that actively as a staff member, but I was still a Scientologist.
Then, in 1979, 1 went to another event. This event was promoted as the most spectacular thing that has ever happened in Scientology. So, I went. And there was a speaker there who discussed NED for OTs, called NOTS for short.. He said that Ron Hubbard made a breakthrough that was beyond your wildest dreams. They had a person who had received some of this auditing. He said that -- he said, "Imagine what you think OT is like, the wildest dreams that you can get of what OT means." And everyone in the audience did it. He said, "It's beyond that."
My expectations of what OT was were very high.

When I came in, I expected to achieve states which I actually didn't during the time before this, and I -- my ration -- I rationalized this by saying, "Well, I came in, I consider, fairly capable to start with." And I thought the next level would come out for me, because Ron Hubbard always said, "I'm working on upper levels." It only went up to eight, but he said that he had eighteen levels above that, but they can't be released yet.

So, I said, "Well, I think other people need this, but I'm -- my levels will come later." So, I thought NOTS, this is it. This is the one that he originally said. I think I was too far away from this before.

Claims were made at this meeting that miracles occurred regularly in sessions, that -- it sounds foolish now. But someone said that a person lost thirty pounds in one session. This is a person who weighed about four hundred pounds, you know, said he lost thirty pounds in one auditing session. They said it was so good that people would open the material and they were so blown out -- as Scientologists say -- that they could only take five minutes of this auditing at a time because it was too much to handle and so good.

And people were so elated at this meeting that they said, "It's finally here, the thing we've been waiting for all these years." I decided that this would be my time, after all -- sixteen years or whatever it was, to join the Sea Organization. I decided I would join the Sea Org., and I would make this for the rest of my life I would dedicate to being a NOTS auditor. My two sisters also decided to join the Sea Org.

I went to Los Angeles, signed the papers. My daughter came with me; she was ten at the time. She joined, also. She stayed in Los Angeles and I came here to Clearwater for training.

The first two weeks of my training were fine. The room situation -- actually, I didn't stay in the rooms at the Fort Harrison. My sisters and myself, we got a room at the Gray Moss Inn, which is across the street. We paid for our own room because we didn't want to live in the dorm.

I audited -- this NOTS material was a big breakthrough. I saw the materials and, in fact, it isn't a breakthrough. It's a continuation of 0 -- Section OT 3. It's actually almost the same exact material, which I didn't realize at the time. It's hard to describe. But when you first see it, it looks different. And there's a relief or seeing -- I realized that the big blow out or this thing that people get is relief, to say, "There is more hope."

The explanation of -- well, I audited many people on this NED for OTs, and they had been OT for ten years, some of them. And the relief was "This is why I was crazy all these years because 3 was never complete. That's why I've been insane all these years." They came in desperation.

Some of the preclears, or people on auditing, said, "If this doesn't work, I don't want to live anymore." They said, "I'm tired of holding up this image of being an OT in Scientology, having illness, having irrational feelings." They came more that "This is the last hope."

I didn't see any miracles when I was auditing here. The people I audited were, as I said, in desperation, wanting it to work. I felt that people who were getting wins -- it was almost like the Emperor's New Clothes, like, if you didn't get - everyone was saying how wonderful it was. If you didn't say it, there was something wrong with you. Because it says in the technology of OT 3 that if you don't have these body thetans -- I don't know if you've discussed OT 3 -- but if you don't have this type of thing, there's something wrong with you and you're really in bad shape. So, people tend to say, "Oh, yes, I see them, too."

Let me stop; I just want to see -- oh, okay.

So, I was auditing people for a few weeks, and I felt complete on course. I said, "Well, whatever people are going to get from this, maybe when they finish it, something will happen or miracles will come." I audited successfully on what it was, and I felt ready to go back to Los Angeles.

The course took me two weeks. And I looked on the checksheet, which was with the course material, and it said, "Length of course: two weeks." And I told the Director of Processing who arranged the auditing sessions "I'm ready to go home." She said, "Oh, no, this takes months." I said, "Well, it says on the checksheet two weeks. That's from Ron Hubbard." She said, "Nobody finishes in two weeks." I said, "Well, I've done all the requirements. So that is actually the start of the nightmare at Clearwater. I tried to go home for weeks and weeks. I started to go to this place called Cramming. Cramming is the department in Scientology where you go if you make an error in your auditing. And they supposedly correct you on this.

So, my first -- the start of the downfall was my first visit to Cramming. I went in at ten o'clock. I was screamed at, I was told I had misunderstood. The Cramming Officer cursed; he pounded on the table, screamed and screamed at me. And I looked for the -- I said, "If I have a misunderstood, I'm very willing to find it, but I don't know where it is." He said, "Shut up and sit down and find your misunderstood word."

I was getting very upset at this time, and I ended up staying there till twelve-thirty at night. And at the end of the evening, it turned out that I didn't have a misunderstood. And he said, "Well, you came to Cramming for this." And I said, "No, I didn't." He hadn't even read the folder. He was grilling me on this thing that didn't even happen. And as I walked out, he said, "Don't worry, Lori, we'll make a good auditor out of you someday." He was a very nasty, upsetting person.

I was sick through the night; I was throwing up. The next day I just felt I couldn't go in; I was very upset about this because I had been doing so well and wanted to go home.

From there I went to Ethics. I said, "Okay, I'll try again." I went back and said, "I'll audit more." For the next few months, anything I did that didn't work, they came up with another. requirement. We had meetings in the Director of Processing Office every morning; it was called muster. And everyone had to say how many hours they did the day before. There was high, high pressure on producing hours. If you didn't produce five hours of auditing on a person, you were put in a condition, you were sent to Ethics, and you were not given any liberty. Liberty is the time off to see your children or to wash your clothes.

The auditors became frantic at Flag to get these hours. I overheard several conversations. One in particular, where one of the auditors cursed, and she said, "These blankety-blank people with these ten-minute sessions, I'm sick of them getting wins." She said, "I need my hours." And I looked at her and I said, "Well, that's what we're here for to give people wins; they're supposed to feel better." She said, "But I need my hours." Because if she didn't get the five hours, she couldn't see her baby, because you only got off a few hours a week on Saturday. But if you didn't do your quota, you couldn't see your children.

So, I said, "Well, why don't we have meetings and discuss how many people we're doing?" Let's say, like, if you said, "They did better today," it was -- no one wanted to hear this. It was only announced how much money we made the graph was put there. There was a big announcement that we were -- at that particular week we had done a million dollars in income. 'That occurred several weeks. We were making a million dollars a week at that time.

MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater?

MS. TAVERNA: Right here at Fort Harrison in Clearwater. We had a graph of money in, and it would be -- they would show us, and they would say daily, "Ron Hubbard is not happy with the statistics. The hours are down." When the stats were down -- they called them stats for statistics -- when the stats were down at the Fort Harrison, the highest staff -- they were put on rice and beans. They would have this for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They were not allowed to eat any other food. When we went to the galley, we would have regular food, but the staff would have rice and beans. And this would stay until the stats went up again.

I started to feel very upset here because I said, "I came here to help people." I thought this was finally, after fifteen years of Scientology, this was going to be the process or the thing that would really do it for people. I felt that I was in, like an insane asylum. People didn't care about anyone.

If you had money and you were a public person, you were given the royal treatment. But behind the scenes, the auditors, the Commanding officer would make a mockery of public people who brought the money there. They would say things like, "Look at them sitting out there in the sun," you know, very derogatory remarks about the people who were coming there, because they were called dilettantes. Because they weren't in the Sea Org., they weren't dedicated. They were just coming here to receive auditing.

I said, "But these people are paying for the service. These people have worked hard for their money. They have a right to sit here by the pool because they're paying for their services." But the attitude in the Sea Org is: If you are not in the Sea Org., you are not contributing. You're a dilettante. You just want to take care of yourself. You don't care about mankind.

I started to get very, very physically ill at this time. I missed my children. I didn't feel that I was helping anyone. I have never seen a miracle with auditing all the years I've been in. I've seen people get better through reading the technology, through applying practical things in a philosophy. I have never recommended auditing to people; I've always said, "Get trained, that'll help you." I never saw the actual purpose for auditing. I thought you could realize the things by reading it and learning more about life.

MR. LeCHER: What term? Get what, trained?

MS. TAVERNA: Excuse me.

MR. LeCHER: What term did you use? Get what?

MS. TAVERNA: Get trained. In other words, take courses

MS. TAVERNA: -- read the material, rather than sit and hold the cans and talk about your case.

MR. LeCHER: I understand.

MS. TAVERNA: I felt it was more advantageous to be trained and learn the technology and use it on yourself. Many Scientologists have to run to their auditor because their case is restimulated and things like this. I didn't feel that was helping people; it was making them more dependent on this auditing, which is very, very expensive. People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. Individuals have spent up to two and three hundred thousand dollars on this NOTS auditing. I felt I was betraying these people; I didn't want to audit NOTS anymore. I didn't want to be there.

I said I wanted to route out of the Sea Org., I wanted to go home. The Ethics Officer -- his name was Richard Kennedy -- he said to me, "We can't let you leave here." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because you're too capable." He said, "You have no Ethics record, you're very well respected, you've trained thousands of people, you're loved very much in Scientology, you're auditing is perfect, you're getting good results. If we let you leave here, people might think there's something wrong with Flag."

I realized at that point that it wasn't going to be easy for me to get out. From then on, I considered I felt that I was a prisoner. No one told me I was a prisoner, but I knew that I wouldn't just walk out the door. In Scientology, you don't just leave. It's embedded over the years that once you're a Scientologist, there's nowhere to go; you just don't leave.

So, I was getting sicker and sicker. I couldn't sleep at night; I was up most of the night. I couldn't eat. I developed -- I got a very bad arthritis attack. My joints became very swollen; my knee got black and blue and swollen. I couldn't walk. One time, I couldn't get out of bed for a week, and they said someone was going to come to give me a session. The person never came.

I finally got out of bed and I walked a few blocks over to where the bank building is; I don't the name of that street. It took me about twenty-five minutes to walk there because my leg was so swollen. When I got there, Richard Kennedy humiliated me. I'm very sensitive about this; I'm trying not to get emotional. He said that -- he called me a cripple. And he said, "Look who's here," you know, "Lori Taverna." He said, "Boy, if you didn't get here soon, we were going to send an ambulance over with a wheelchair to take the cripple here."

So, again, I said, "I would like to go home." At this point, I said, "It's not -- it's not the Sea Org. It's not you, it's me. I'm not equipped for the Sea Org." My case -- I would say anything at this point to go home. I felt that I was starting to -- I felt as if I was going insane. I had no touch with the -- no contact with the outside world. We were not allowed to talk about Flag to anyone, phone calls. We were instructed not to mention anything about the Flag Land Base to anyone outside of Flag.

MR. LeCHER: Amazing. I'm just talking to myself. it's amazing what you're saying.

MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. So, at this point, I cried a lot, I was sick a lot, and I went back and forth to training. I'd try again.

At times I'd get very upset and say, "Well, no matter how bad it is, I have to stay here because I can't just leave because I'll be betraying Ron Hubbard." I felt that Ron had done so much for mankind -- at this time I felt this way -- that "Look what he's gone through. I know these people here are insane, but Ron isn't here. And if he only knew what was going on, he would help."

I wrote him long letters. I don't know if he got them or not.

One time it got particularly bad. When I went back, and even though I was sick, I tried to do it again. And they said, "Well, we want a tape recording of your session," which was a requirement to check your TRs, which was your communication. I did the tape. It was passed by my supervisor on the first tape. It went to the case supervisor, which was Jeff Walker. He brought up a technicality which had nothing to do with the TRs. There was always another technicality why I couldn't go home.

And I realized that no matter what I did, they would never say I graduated. They didn't know what to do with me at this point. So, I was disintegrating physically and mentally, and I couldn't -- I was no longer able to audit people. So, one day I was at the Gray Moss Inn -- and I hadn't slept for about three nights. I slept in the same clothes -- or I was wearing the same clothes. I didn't know where I was. Day and night appeared the same to me. And I just -- my sisters, also. My sisters were also living with me at the Gray Moss. They had gone in to do their auditing or whatever they were doing.

And I just walked out of the Gray Moss, and I walked down Fort Harrison Avenue and I got in a cab and I went to the airport. And I had an American Express card, and I flew to New York. I -- what they call in Scientology, blow. I just couldn't bear it. I felt that if I didn't leave at that point, I would physically die; I couldn't live anymore. And I don't remember going home; I was in a daze. I know I hid at the airport; I was in fear of my life. I wasn't sure what people were capable of, but I had heard a lot of stories about things that were done to people. And we have a policy in Scientology of handling a blown student, that you are to physically restrain them.

So, I just got to the airport and I got on the plane. I think I just hid -- I found a corner and just sat there for three or four hours. It was a long time because I didn't know when the flights were or -- I wanted to get away from them. I got on the plane. And I had called from a telephone booth a friend of mine in New York, and I just said, "Be at the airport." I cried all the way home on the plane; I couldn't see, my eyes were swollen. I was, I guess, in a delirious state.

When I got off the plane, through a blur, I saw uniforms, which was the Sea Org. uniform. Obviously, they had telexed, which they do, "Lori Taverna blew Flag," and they were waiting for me in New York.

I was too weak to walk, and my friend came over and held me up. I felt that I was going to faint, and I said to him, "Tell them to go away." And my friend aided me by keeping these people away from me. They were part of the New York branch of the Sea Organization; they liaisoned with Clearwater, with Flag here.

So, he successfully told them -- kept them away from me, and he took me home. I was too weak to speak to him or tell him what happened. I just rested without talking. And I slept. And then, the next morning, the whole thing -- I realized what I did. I said, "I left Flag." It was, like, terrifying to me that I did this. It was such a crime; it was such a terrible, harmful thing that I had done. And I said, "I have to go back."

I think of it now -- I know it must sound insane, but I felt that I still can't -- I said, "I can't do this to Ron Hubbard." To know that a NOTS auditor blew Flag was the highest crime and the biggest betrayal that I could ever, ever do.

So, I got on the next plane and I came back to Clearwater. Before I did, I went to the New York Organization and I said, "You don't have to look for me or come bring me back. I'm going back on my own free will." I wrote a long letter to Ron Hubbard. I told him everything that was occurring; I said that I hadn't been able to leave Flag. "I feel I've done all the requirements."

I arrived back in Clearwater -- do you want me to continue talking?

MR. LeCHER: No -- yes. I'm just looking at the time. We should break for lunch soon and we should question you after lunch.

Why don't we go till twelve-thirty and, then, we can break for lunch and come back around two --


MR. LeCHER: -- and you can finish and, then, we can ask you some questions.

MR. CALDERBANK: How long will it take, do you think, to finish your story?

MS. TAVERNA: It won't be very long, because the last thing I've done in Scientology is this what I'm telling you now, when I stayed at Flag

MR. LeCHER: We'll go the latest till twelve-thirty.


MR. LeCHER: If you can finish in that time, I'd appreciate it. Then, we'll ask you questions and you can reiterate after lunch.

MS. TAVERNA: So, I will actually finish everything I have to say by twelve-thirty and

MR. LeCHER: If you can.

MS. TAVERNA: All right.

MR. LeCHER: If you -- I'd like to have you back after lunch anyway so we can ask you a few questions.

MS. TAVERNA: Okay, fine.

MR. LeCHER: If you can't finish, save it for later.

MS. TAVERNA: Okay. So; I came back. When I came back, I was treated as a Blown Student. I was -- I had to do Ethics conditions; I had to make amends. I had to do physical labor to make up far my crime. I had to get -- do all this and, when it was completed, I had to have people sign that I was allowed back into the group. I did all of this. I went back. I said I would do anything, I would do retraining. I went back and did my training again. There were no misunderstoods found. I went back to auditing people. The same thing happened: finishing, not being able to go home.

Again, I went down again. I got very sick again. The times that I was physically ill at the Fort Harrison one time in particular was when the arthritis really flared up. I was sitting, waiting to see the Ethics Officer, and the Commanding Officer, Bill Franks, came by and screamed very loudly, "What are you doing here? Why aren't you auditing?" I said, "Because I'm sick." He said, "What kind of sick?" He said, "Maybe cleaning toilets will fix that."

And I was put on cleaning toilets for the afternoon and doing physical work. I was then put on work doing -- putting paper clips through binders when my fingers -- I couldn't bend my fingers from the arthritis. And I don't know if it was intentional, but I burst into tears because I couldn't bend my fingers to do the work that they gave me.

I was put in the kitchen, in the galley, to wash pots, in the laundry room, all types of physical labor during times that I was ill. This was to make amends for whatever -- or I don't know.

One particular time, I was -- I went back to my training and I was trying very hard. Even though I couldn't sleep and couldn't eat, I was, like, going through my training, saying, "I'm going to do it this time no matter what. I'm not going to let them stop me."

I was holding some folders, auditing folders, and all of a sudden I felt that I was starting to faint or something was happening. My left side started to go numb and I started -- my hands went into a spasm. I felt that I was getting a heart attack, and the left side of my face started to feel paralyzed. I tried to stay calm, and I walked/ I don't know if I told the person in charge. You're not allowed to go anywhere without informing your senior or your supervisor. I think I slowly walked to the Medical Officer. The Fort Harrison had a Medical officer who handled any ill person. You go on what's called a routing form, and the first person you see is the Medical Officer. So, I walked into his office and I tried to speak very slowly.

I said, "I feel very sick." By the time I got there, my legs started to go into a spasm and my hands crumbled up and I couldn't feel the left side of my face.

I became very frightened. And I said, "I feel that I am maybe getting a heart attack." I couldn't breathe; I had severe pains in my chest. The Medical Officer said -- he looked like he was concerned. He hadn't been concerned before. But he said -- he studied for a while and then said, "Well, go to your room and rest for a while." This is the first time I had been told to rest and not put on physical work.

I said, "You don't understand, I feel that something is happening to me." I was trying to tell him I needed medical assistance. He looked again and said, "Well, why don't you come back in about an hour and let me know how you're feeling?" And I was trying not to get upset.

And then, my left side really went into a spasm and my -- something happened to the air; I couldn't breathe. And he made a phone call, he got a car, and I was rushed to a doctor. It was an oriental woman; I forgot her name. I think she's on Fort Harrison Road. It's about five minutes from the Fort Harrison.

I went in there and she gave me a pill to take. I found out -- I asked her later and it was a Valium, which I had never taken in my life before, but it was to relax me. And she said that.-- she gave me an electrocardiogram, and I was to stay there for about an hour. She said that my heart was fine. She said I hyperventilated and I had muscle spasms from nerves. She said I was suffering from extreme stress, from physical exhaustion.

And she said, "I know you're part of the Church of Scientology and I know that you must be very conscientious." She said, "I noticed a lot of the people there are in the same state," because they obviously had come to her. She said, "They work too hard, too many hours." She said, "You have to learn to rest."

She prescribed walks for an hour a day and hot baths three times a day, and certain things that I had to do to recuperate, which I actually never did.

I don't know where I'm up to from here.

Anyway, I'll briefly end it here, my leaving Clearwater. It got worse and worse and worse: my physical state, my mental state. At one point, the Ethics Officer, her name was Sunny -- I was doing errands for her because they didn't know what to do with me. So, they were just keeping me with the Ethics Officer and giving me little chores to do to watch me.

She asked me if I would just help her to go to the airport because they had a Scientologist who was leaving Scientology and they knew that his wife would want to leave with him. And they had to physically restrain her at the airport, and could I help with this. It was a stupid thing to ask me. My -- I guess she realized it soon after and said, "Well, never mind. I think we have enough people." So, I knew at this point that they would physically restrain me, and I had a feeling that something really bad would happen if I tried to blow again.

So, I decided to say anything that I had to say to leave. I said that I was -- I was -- it was my case. I said -- and I finally said the right thing to leave. I said, "I decided that I need more NOTS auditing. And my case is in such bad shape that I can't do it while I'm in the Sea Org. I'm chronically ill, so I don't really fit the requirements here. So, I'm going to go home and I'll just sell my business and I'm going to come back to Flag and I'm going to buy my NOTS auditing." So, this obviously was the right thing to say at the time.

I went to see the Registrar. He gave me an estimate of $20,000.00. I said, "That'll be a breeze." I said, "My business is worth more than that. I'll get the money very quickly." At that point, I was able to leave with no one stopping me. It took me a couple of weeks to recuperate when I got back to New York. I -- it took me about two weeks before I could function normally, and I had the effects for probably a long time.

I'd like to describe after lunch what happened after that. But basically, that's when I left the org.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much. It's been very enlightening. I'm glad you're here and you're doing a wonderful job, and I hope you're not too nervous.

Come back after lunch around two o'clock and we'll continue with our discussion.

This meeting is now recessed until two.

(Whereupon, the luncheon recess was taken.)

Afternoon Session

MR. LeCHER: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the Clearwater City Commission Hearing with reference to Scientology.

Again, we're here on our second day, and starting May -- Monday, the Scientologists will have the equal opportunity that the city has had up to this point to present their side of the issue and, also, their witnesses.

We are back in session and we are interviewing now Lori Taverna. And Lori has been speaking earlier today, this morning. She has specifically been speaking about Clearwater.

I would like to have you continue your remarks. I would prefer that you keep it, if possible, specifically, again, to Clearwater with respect to what's going on there. And again, stay away from anything that might be construed as religion or faith or worship.

And so, Lori, would you like to start? And tell us in your own words.


MS. TAVERNA: Okay. What I'm going to do now is refer to my notes and fill in anything

MR. LeCHER: Sure.

MS. TAVERNA: -- that I left out earlier. Specifically, as to the living quarters at the Fort Harrison -- or how it was to be there as a student or as an auditor: I mentioned that it was very overcrowded, there's ten bunks in a room. There were also many bugs in the room. There were roaches; there were ants on the sheets. There was -- I don't know what it is. It's a very large bug that looked like a roach that would fly around the room regularly.

MR. LeCHER: I think they're called palmetto bugs.

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I've never seen those before.

MR. LeCHER: We all know them.

MS. TAVERNA: Okay. Also, there was one bathroom for ten people. To get ready in the morning was very hassled. When I was at Clearwater when I was a student and when I was an auditor, we had thirty minutes to eat where we had to -- I was taking courses over at the other bank building, and we had to run to the Fort Harrison, then, we had to wait on the line with, sometimes, thirty people, get our food and eat it, and be back on post for roll call in thirty minutes. So, most of the time we didn't eat or we had indigestion. That part of it is very upsetting. If you were late, even a minute, you had to go to Ethics and have handling or do conditions to make amends for being late.

I'd like to speak a little bit about the Medical Officer. I mentioned times that I was ill. I did see the Medical Officer a few times.

The first time I saw him was when I arrived in Clearwater. I was told that I had to get a shot, and I said, "What was it for?" And he said it was a hepatitis shot. And I said, "Well, why do I have to get this?" And he said because I just came from Los Angeles and at the Los Angeles Organization there was an epidemic of hepatitis. So, anyone arriving from Los Angeles had to get this.

At first I objected. I -- you know, I don't take that much medicine and I didn't know really what it was. But I agreed and I had a shot from the Medical Officer.

When you're on NOTS, you also -- NED for OTs auditing, people are required to take certain vitamins. You have to take B 1. 1 think it was five hundred milligrams -- I'm not sure -- which I think is very large. And you also had to have three or four glasses of something called Calmag. This is calcium magnesium, and you have to drink this. This is something for your nerves, which is like a natural tranquilizer to keep you destimulated, as they call it, during processing.

I had a bad reaction to both of them. I had nightmares from the B1. It was an overdose of vitamins. But all people were required to do this.

One instance that I disagreed with when I was there was there was a little boy who was ill. He was one of the children of the staff members at the Fort Harrison. And I was called in to help to audit this little boy because I had a good reputation as an auditor.

So, I went there and I found this little boy. He had a hundred and five fever. He was unable to move his head and his neck. I think it was like symptoms of meningitis or something like that. He was very flushed and feverish. And the case supervisor was the person who directs you in auditing and had instructed me to run some processes on him, basically, to handle any upsets.

And I went there with my E-Meter and I had this little boy pick up the cans; he was too weak to hold the cans. So, I just didn't do it. I said, "This child is too sick to receive auditing. I think he should go to a doctor." The Medical Officer said, "Well" -- he had a medical book in which he looked up certain things. And he said, "I don't feel that he's in any danger. We'll see how he is tomorrow."

So, he didn't -- the boy didn't see a doctor. I don't know if he did after I left. I never went back, but I had that little boy on my mind. And I felt it was improper handling to audit this -- a kid who was sick.

Oh, one thing I neglected to say before: After I left Flag unauthorized and came back, I was then guarded. I was watched constantly. I felt that I had to sneak to make a phone call. I was also told that I was not allowed to speak to my sisters. Two of them there were not allowed to communicate. And I was moved out of the room.

So, my sister was now at the Gray Moss Inn, and I had to move into a dorm with other Scientologists because I guess they didn't trust me to be out of the building because I had already run away one time. So, I actually snuck out a few times at two in the morning to go across the street to talk to my sister, Rosie. And this was like a high crime.

We weren't allowed to communicate because we had what they called mutual upset; in other words, we would conspire, like, I would tell her what was bothering me and it would stir up a conspiracy. So, for maybe a month or so, I was not allowed to speak to my sister.

And, also, after I came back, the first night before we got separated, a Scientologist was sent to our room at the Gray Moss Inn to guard us during the night while we were sleeping, which --

MR. LeCHER: Go at you?

MS. TAVERNA: Excuse me?

MR. LeCHER: Go at you, you're saying?



MR. LeCHER: Guard?
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Part 4 of 6

MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. When I -- she came into the room and she happened to be a friend of mine who I knew from New York. And I said -- I convinced her finally that I wasn't going to run away again, and I didn't. I promised her I wouldn't. She said her assignment was to guard us and stay in the room during the night so we wouldn't leave. I felt sorry for her, because I knew if I did leave after I promised her that she would have some sort of punishment. And I didn't plan on running away again anyway. But they did guard us.

When I was at the Fort Harrison, there was a thing called the RPF, which is the Rehabilitation Project Force. I never felt good about this. There's a lot of things in Scientology that I never felt good about. I saw them and kind of just didn't understand them, especially, when I saw some of my friends in this RPF, very nice, good people.

One day they would be fine and smiling and, then a good friend of mine, the next day, she was in this RPF. She was -- everyone in it has to wear blue. They wear blue shorts and shirts. They're not allowed to speak to anyone. They had to always run; you're never allowed to stop. If you stopped running, you're punished or put into something more severe, which is called the RPF's RPF, if you break the rules. That's something that most Scientologists don't know about. I didn't know that much about it at the time.

But all I know is what I saw. I saw a few people who looked very sick. One woman had sores all over her body, open sores. I went into my friend. I asked her if I'm allowed to speak to her. She said, "You can speak to your friend, but in the RPF they're not allowed to communicate to anyone outside the RPF."

So, I went to her, and she kept her head down. And when I addressed her, I said -- her eyes were all swollen, she had been crying. And I said, "What happened?" She said she couldn't talk about it, and she said -- she called me "Sir." As a matter of fact, this is the person who recruited me for that Operation Z, a very bright, beautiful, young girl. And in the RPF, if anyone speaks to you, you have to address them as "Sir." And I felt very upset for her. I cried, thinking that she was calling me "Sir."

But she just said, "It's going to be fine," you know, through tears in her eyes. And I don't know the details of why she got in there.

People in the RPF are not allowed to eat with the rest of the people. After we finished eating, they would come and eat whatever, you know, was left, you know, same food, though, but never sit at the table with another person. They're considered a lower -- you know, a lower level. And the purpose of it is to rehabilitate them because they have become so degraded and so psychotic that they have to be separated and go through this particular physical work. They work for half a day and get audited or processed for half a day until they come up to the next level.

Another thing I've never felt good in Scientology about is the care of children. I have three children and I've always given them my full attention. At the Fort Harrison, they had a -- I never had my children at the Fort Harrison. But it happened to be right downstairs from the Medical officer. So, whenever I would go there, I would glance in and see the children.

Once I heard a child screaming very loudly. I went down just from instinct, you know, and I walked into where they keep the children. There was a toddler, he was all alone. His diaper was falling off and he was screaming. There was no adult there. I just picked him up and, you know, patted him a little bit.

Several times there were other children wandering around fighting with each other, you know, the way children do. It was right next to the parking lot in the back, and -- but they did have a gate there so the children wouldn't go out. But many times I saw them -- they were kind of just left there. I can't say I know exactly how they were cared for, but from what I saw they were dirty. The room Z went into was a mess; there were no sheets on the beds; and there were things thrown all around the room.

As far as education goes, in Scientology for all the years I've been in, there has been a put down of education by Ron Hubbard, by Scientologists. The school system is suppressive. A Scientologist has said to me several times, "You're not sending your kids to college, are you?" And I said, "Of course, I am." And she said, "How could you do that," as if I was committing a crime.

As recently as last week, my daughter has a friend who's a Scientologist -- she was at her house -- and the mother -- Debbie mentioned when she goes to college she's thirteen now. And the mother said, who's a Scientologist, "Debbie, why would you want to go to college?" And she said, "Because I want to learn about this and that." And she said, "Ron Hubbard has the greatest technology in the world. You don't need college; college is a waste of time." She said, "What do you want to learn?" She said, "Well, I want to learn about the business world." She said, "Even if I don't have my own business, I want to be smart so I can understand it." She said, "Ron Hubbard has the greatest business technology and managing/administrative technology there is and you can get it in Scientology. You should be taking your courses and going clear."

So, education is discouraged very much in Scientology. It's a suppressive organization that doesn't really teach you anything. And as long as you have your Scientology training, you're going to make it in the world.

My daughter was in the Sea Org.; she was in there for seven months while I was training here in Clearwater. She had no schooling at all. She said she went to school, I think, three times. She had to work from eight in the morning till ten-thirty at night seven days a week. And they said there was no time for school.

She was told that she would have weekends off in the Sea Org. This never happened. She got Saturday afternoon off for three hours because stats were up. She soon realized that this was not what -- she was in the wrong place. I wasn't there, but she was living with my brother-in-law, so she never actually lived in the quarters with the other children.

My daughter has gone to Scientology schools since she was born, literally. She went to a nursery and, then, she had all her education up until she was eleven years old in a Scientology school. I discovered -- well, guess, she was ten -- up until ten. I discovered when she was ten or eleven that she didn't know math. I felt very negligent. I assumed she's a brilliant girl. She was reading at three years old, very mature. Somehow it came out that she didn't know the two times table. Nothing.

I got very, very upset. I went to the school, and they begged me not to take her out. They told me that the GO would pounce on her; that was the words that they used. The Ability School was run -- I don't know the details, but the GO had some authority over the way the school was run. And the people who ran it said, you know, "This would be very bad if a Scientologist took their child out." I said, "I don't care what it looks like. My children -- I want my children to have an education and this is absurd."

I took her out and I put her in public school. She immediately went up to fifth grade math. She was just she's very bright. She was never taught anything in the school. The school was run like a Scientology organization; they had Ethics conditions. The children were also taught about the enemy in the outside world. Scientology children have an attitude that it's the suppressives out there and Scientologists.

They've often said things to my daughter about going into the WOG world. A WOG is someone not in Scientology. And when they heard she was going to public school, they frightened her. They -- my daughter cried for three days because she thought they were going to kill her in public school. And since then, she's out of Scientology. She knows everything that I do now.

But basically, the -- education is totally put down in Scientology.

When I was in Los Angeles recently, visiting my sister, I helped out in a Scientology private school. It was called Renaissance School. I'm not an official teacher, but I was helping because they didn't have anyone. There was a boy there who was nine years old. He had been brought up in the Sea Org.; his parents both were in and he was born in. He -- I understand from the owners of the school that he spent most of his nine years in the Children's RPF. I don't know what that is, but I assume it's the same thing as the adult RPF.

This boy couldn't read one word at nine years old. And I taught him how to read his first word, and I taught him his first sentence. And he just -- he was crying that he could read one sentence. He was nine years old, and he was born in Scientology and sent to Scientology schools.

I also know that the children have a lot of illnesses. I don't know -- I didn't see it, but my sister was there. And the children in the child care org. in Los Angeles -- a friend called my sister and said, "I need help. My son is very ill and I don't know what to do."

My sister went there and her friend's son had a fever and was crying. His job was to be the nanny; he was to watch the younger children and he had a high fever. She went to the Medical officer and she said, "This boy is sick; he needs a doctor." He said, "He's not sick; I examined him. And he's supposed to be on post." He said, "There's nothing wrong with him." He said, "I already know what it is. The children have herpes."

And my sister walked in and she saw infants -- she saw babies on the floor. They had sores all over their face and mouth. And my sister went into a rage. She went in and she said, "I want these children taken care of." And the Medical Officer said, "Well, who are you? What are you doing here?" He said, "As a matter of fact, I won't talk to you anymore." He said, "We don't have any money for a doctor."

So, she said, "Well, you get the money." And then, finally, my sister got so mad, she said, "Well, if you don't do something about these children right now, I'm calling the Board of Health." When she said that, she got a lot of attention: GO people, "Do you realize what you just said?" She was declared PTS, threatening to embarrass or sue Scientology, one of those categories.

The Medical Officer called her -- he said, "You just committed a suppressive act." She said, "No. You committed the suppressive act." She said, "I want these children cared for."

So, I know this goes on. I've seen it. I've seen many sick children in Scientology, and it's looked at that you should be on post. They don't need a doctor.

The Medical officer sometimes acts as a doctor. I've never seen them administer medicine, but it's more neglect than administering. They don't get the proper medical care.

Something I neglected to say: When we first arrived at the Fort Harrison in Clearwater here, you had to get security clearance before you're allowed on the -- to be officially here or to get -- to be on NOTS. It takes about a week. They check your life; they check everything.

And the person in charge was Skip Henson at the time. And you have to get -- read some beginning indoctrination of how to respond if anyone in Clearwater asks you a question. There are certain set answers that you should give if a resident happens to say, "What are you doing here? What happens at the Fort Harrison?"

I don't remember what they are exactly, but it's something to the effect that "If anyone asks you anything, 'I'm here for religious counseling.'" It was something like that, but I can't remember.

When they had rallies, you were told that the mayor was a suppressive person, that the officials in Clearwater were suppressive. They were trying to stop -- stamp out Scientology. We had GO briefings. When they had some sort of rally here, we were instructed. I think the woman's name was Nancy. She was giving the briefing.

MR. LeCHER: Nancy Risi?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes. She gave the briefing. And she said that "If any reporters or anyone comes to you, don't answer any questions about anything. Refer them to me."

We were also instructed -- every time some type of official would come into the Fort Harrison, students were given a little slip or a form: "The Fire Commissioner is coming," or "Some lawyers are going to be here," "Some WOGs are coming," you know, something like this. "Dress a certain way tomorrow because so and so is coming." We always had warning before any type of inspection was done. They would clear up whatever that particular thing was.

MR. LeCHER: A WOG is an outsider, again?

MS. TAVERNA: A WOG is a person who is not. in Scientology, so that's how they refer to someone like that. I think that I covered most of my notes here.

MR. LeCHER: We don't even know where to start, you've said so many startling things. One thing that struck me, though, was herpes. Isn't that a venereal disease?

MS. TAVERNA: There's two types. My sister took the child and paid for it herself; she took the child to the doctor. He was given antibiotics. She said it was a virus-type of herpes rather than a venereal -- they're two different things.

MRS. GARVEY: There are cold sores

MR. CALDERBANK: We used to get

MR. LeCHER: -It was diagnosed, though?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes. It was diagnosed by the doctor.

MR. LeCHER: All right. While you were deeply involved in all these things, did you still believe in the incredible background of L. Ron Hubbard?

Ms. TAVERNA: I believed totally in L. Ron Hubbard until recently. I felt very sorry for him. I felt deep compassion. I felt that I was trying -- I had tried for seventeen years to make the organization sane and I said, "If I feel this way, what must Ron Hubbard be going through?" And I felt a devotion to him to try to make it sane. I felt that he was one of the greatest men that ever, ever lived, and I wanted to help him up until recently.

Even after Clearwater I said, "If Ron Hubbard only knew." As I said, up until recently.

MR. LeCHER: I don't know if I can ask this, but: Generally, what is the ultimate thing you expected with the new breakthrough? Would that be an exhibit of faith? You were looking for this new breakthrough which kept you going, apparently, in this organization.

MR. FLYNN: It would probably be wiser to -

MR.. LeCHER: I will ignore it and forget I asked the question. And I will stick to things that happened in Clearwater. You said there's a cramming hold. What is a cramming hold, what was his name, and where was the office, this cramming hold office?

MS. TAVERNA: What was that

MR. LeCHER: Cramming -

MS. TAVERNA: -- the second word?

MR. LeCHER: Hold.


MR. LeCHER: Cramming office. Where was it and who manned the cramming office?

MS. TAVERNA: The cramming office was right next to where the pool is. You had to go alongside the pool and, then, go in the back. It was in the back of the cabana-type rooms. That's where the cramming was.

MR. LeCHER: Would you know if that still exists?

MS. TAVERNA: Cramming always exists in Scientology in every organization in the world.

MR. LeCkER: Again, for the benefit of those that are new and for the audience: Again, what is cramming?

Ms. TAVERNA: Cramming is the department in Scientology which is correction. If someone doesn't apply the technology properly, if it appears that they have misunderstood words, cramming is supposed to find the misunderstood and handle it so the person can do it correctly.

There's something I want to say about cramming which I forgot to say, if I could just add it.

MR. LeCHER: If it's not -- doesn't have to do with faith or religious ceremony, I want to hear it.

MS. TAVERNA: Yes. This doesn't -- has to do with the treatment of people there by the Cramming officer. I went in there and this is one of my first few visits to cramming there was a woman who was probably about sixty-five years old, she was a NOTS auditor, she was there for training, which is admirable because people who become auditors want to help people. She apparently made some kind of mistake; she was sitting there; she was trembling; she had tears in her eyes.

The Cramming Officer -- his name was Spike Bush who, in my opinion -- never mind. Well, his name is Spike Bush. He was standing there -- he was sitting down, she was in front of him. He was pounding the table. She said, "But" --she was stuttering. She said, "But I thought -- but I thought." He said, "Don't think." He said, "That's your problem, you think." He pounded the table at least six times while he was screaming at the top of his lungs, "Don't think." And I -- okay.

MR. LeCHER: Well, if you want to continue, I did you ever -- after fifteen years, didn't you ever feel like a slave or indentured servant? I mean, you're working for $10.00 a week. And how did you exist and take care of your children?

MS. TAVERNA: No. For all the years that I was in, I never felt like a slave or that I was working for nothing. When I was on staff, I was married at the time -- his is before my divorce so my husband was taking care of the bills. My children came with me when they were young. I always brought them with me and I had them in a nursery. And I always went home by three o'clock in the beginning when my children were little. And I had a home and I had a normal life, not like many Scientologists who had no other income.

And in later years, I worked in a mission, which paid $125.00 a week and I only worked till six o'clock. So, I had other businesses at nights or on the weekends where I would do sales or something like that.

The only time that I have ever felt I was treated not as a human being was at Clearwater in '79. Before that, I felt that it didn't matter if I got $3.00 or $10.00; it had nothing to do with the money at the time. It had to do with just helping to make a better world. It didn't matter.

MR. LeCHER: Okay. You said in Clearwater, when you were here, they were collecting about a million dollars a week, and I think you may have mentioned in one week there was 2.3 million dollars.

MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't know that. I think someone else said that.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Well, a million dollars is a lot of money --


MR. LeCHER: -- a week. Who collected it and was it in cash? And where did you put it? Did it leave the area?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't know anything about the finances. There were -- I know that you -- I know where the money goes. You bring it to the cashier. There's a cashier window.

First, you go to the Registrar; you sign up for what service you want. It costs a specific amount of money. You have to pay in advance. Then, you go to the cashier. You pay the money there however you want to pay it. They give you a receipt for your services. Then, you go start the course.

MR. LeCHER: With so much money coming in, such a cash flow, why was it you were fed beans and rice?

MS. TAVERNA: I have asked people that question, and they said, "It's very expensive to run the Fort Harrison and there's just not enough money." I felt it was absolutely absurd, and I had many questions about where the money was going.

Mi. LeCHER: How do you feel about being denied medical treatment, you and other people that you came in contact with?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I -

MR. LeCHER: Was that widespread?

MS. TAVERNA: Not getting medical treatment?

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

MS. TAVERNA: Well, you can see a doctor in Scientology. You could go to a doctor, but you go through the Medical Officer. In other words, he makes recommendations.

MR. LeCHER: All right. You had a Medical officer. What was his or her qualifications? Was it a nurse or --

MS. TAVERNA: No.The fellow who was --

MR. LeCHER: I'm sorry, go ahead.

MS. TAVERNA: The fellow who was the Medical Officer when I was there -- I can't remember his name -- he wasn't a doctor, but he had some training of some sort. I don't know what you call it, like an aide who -- an assistant. He had some type of medical knowledge, definitely not a doctor.

I never met a Medical officer who was a doctor in Scientology. It's usually just a regular staff member. It could be anyone. You don't even have to have any knowledge of medicine. Basically, you use L. Ron Hubbard's policies on -- well, actually, it doesn't go even that far. He'll just determine if it needs medical attention or any -- something like that. But you're never actually denied. Like, if you insist and say, "I want to see a doctor," you'll probably have to go through and convince him, because you can go. I've never been denied medical treatment.

MR. LeCHER: Is any labor performed at the Fort Harrison by townspeople that get paid the minimum wage or more as to what they're worth?

MS. TAVERNA: You mean, people hired --

MR. LeCHER: Like painters, plumbers --


MR. LeCHER: -- carpenters --

MS. TAVERNA: I never saw anyone at the Fort Harrison --

MR. LeCHER: masons?

MS. TAVERNA: doing anything, other than Scientologists. So, I don't know. In other words, they'd hire people who have certain skills, like, if someone was a plumber, they'll try to recruit them. The whatever -- other things. They have all Scientologists running the Fort Harrison, as far as I've ever known.

MR. LeCHER: You talked about business courses. What business courses were offered for either for students or for someone of your age?

MS. TAVERNA: A business course? Well, there's --

MR. LeCHER: You said that the Founder knows more about business than anybody else. And I was wondering what he taught?

MS. TAVERNA: I'm trying to think of the names of the courses. Well, they had the Flag Executive Briefing Course, FEBC, and they had the OEC, the Organizational Executive Course I guess it's called. And in there, there are all policies on managing a business, on administrative policies. They tell you exactly how to run an organization, how to set it up, how to make an organization board, and so forth: flow lines within an organization.

MR. LeCHER: Were you given any contact with the outside world while you were at Clearwater? Were you did you make outside friends, like, go to the beach or --

MS. TAVERNA: No. I never spoke to anyone in Clearwater. It was kind of -- you just don't do that. No one told me I couldn't speak to anyone. It's just something you don't do; I don't know why.

MR. LeCHER: Where is the the RPF?


MR. LeCHER: Where are those people and where are they kept? Are they, you know -- do they have a separate office or how do they become -- how do you become an RPF, first of all?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, you are placed in the RPF for breaking the rules, for -- sort of like you'd say, in other words, for committing a crime. If you -- I can just give you examples of crimes that someone might do.

If your stats were very down -- I can't say. I don't have -- really, I don't have knowledge. I've seen things where it says that "So and so is assigned to the RPF." You'll get something, some kind of Ethics hearing like a Committee of Evidence where people will listen, see what your crime was, and decide if you should go in the RPF or not.

Certain things that are instant RPF, I think, like, having sex with someone who you're not married to. I think that would -- I'm not positive, but I think that would be RPF.

MR. LeCHER: That would be considered a crime?

MS. TAVERNA: That was -- that's definitely a crime, I know that.

MR. LeCHER: About these children who go to school: Didn't you find it curious that your child couldn't -- although she could read well -- couldn't do her two times two tables or mathematic tables?

MS. TAVERNA: I -- it was one of the biggest shocks of my life. It -- I was I felt bad for my own neglect that I did assume. I just assumed that she was in school. I was working very hard in my own business, and she was just so bright. The teacher always said she was doing fine, you know, and she was doing wonderful. And you just don't go around, you know, asking the kid, you know, "What's five times" --

MR. LeCHER: I understand.

MS. TAVERNA: You know, I just assumed. It's such a natural part of learning. Until some -- she told me that she didn't want -- she didn't want to play a game. And I said, "Well, why," you know. She said, "Because I'm stupid," because there was a child much younger than her who was figuring out math in this game.

And she's been crying hundreds of hours since then because I immediately tried to put her into a private school that my sons went to. My sons went to one of the best schools in the city, a private school. And I wanted her to go there. And they wouldn't accept her. I didn't tell her why; I said they were too crowded. She had special scores, and she was in the one percentile in math. And I'm still trying to repair her right now and getting her a special tutor and, then, try to re-enter her in the private school. And I work with her everyday now an hour.

MR. LeCHER: Do you think there's young people there that are being raised without a minimal education that we have grown to expect in Pinellas County for our own children?

MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

MR. LeCHER: Do you think that there are people within Clearwater, within the Scientologist organization, that are still not getting the proper education, as was illustrated in the case of your own child?

MS. TAVERNA: I positively think so, but I don't know. The reason I think so is because, when I was at Clearwater, I saw children very often during the day with people -- little children who were folder pages, and they would be in uniform with their shorts and lanyards. And they would be -- they were my daughter's friends from New York who had joined the Sea Organization to come here. And they would be working during school hours, folder pages.

I don't know if they didn't have school. If they did, I don't know where it was. But I did see children many times during the day working.

MR. LeCHER: All right these young people were folding pages, you say?

MS. TAVERNA: Folder pages. They carried the pages of -- in other words, if you were going to audit someone, you would call for a certain folder where the records are kept and these folder pages would bring it to you -- the auditor.

MR. LeCHER: Sort of like a page, then?

MS. TAVERNA: A page to carry a messenger; that's what they were called, little messengers.

MR. LeCHER: They weren't folding pages, like pages in a book?

MS. TAVERNA: No, no, no. A messenger to bring folders to different locations.

MR. LeCHER: You were here since I have been Mayor and we've had sometimes a stormy time here. Didn't any of these other outside activities that the city or other private individuals may have done -- didn't it ever affect you or didn't you ever question what you were doing there, or maybe question the credibility of the background of L. Ron Hubbard?

MS. TAVERNA: I definitely wondered what I was doing here when I was in Clearwater. I didn't question the credibility of Ron Hubbard; it was so embedded in me that, through all the suffering that I went through, I never once considered that L. Ron Hubbard had anything to do with it. I considered him a victim of a lot of stupid people who wouldn't listen to this good man, and I never once questioned him.

I -- I felt terrible about the people in Clearwater. I -- they probably had a peaceful town here and, I think, people come up and start changing things. And I -- I actually snuck out and would read the paper and I would see about infiltration into the Clearwater Sun. And I would think, I said, "Why don't they leave people alone," you know. And I was very upset about it. But it was, like, a separate thing.

That was the GO. That was not my field. My field was counseling people. And I said, "If only the GO would be decent and" -- I said, "How can Clearwater be friendly toward Scientology?" I mean, if someone came into my town and started infiltrating and staging these things and dressing up as clowns, you know, I wouldn't like it either. I was embarrassed to be a Scientologist when I was here. I felt embarrassed for Ron Hubbard.

I thought that these people were destroying Scientology by making it a mockery. And I wouldn't talk to a resident, I guess, because I would never say I was a Scientologist; I was embarrassed. Sometimes, people would go by and yell out things or throw stones, and I said, you know, "Boy, I'm embarrassed."

MR.. LeCHER: Were you here when they -- the Scientologists protested or picketed the Clearwater Sun dressed up as Nazis?

MS. TAVERNA: I remember them dressed up as Nazis. I didn't know what they were picketing, but I saw Nazi uniforms and I -- again, I was very embarrassed and I thought it was an insane act. I think people probably -- people did then think that Scientology was -- Scientologists were Nazis. They didn't understand what they were doing. I saw the uniforms and I was very embarrassed by it.

MR. LeCHER: I think most -- many other people were embarrassed for them. One more question and I'll turn it over. What what do you think your typical day was like here in Clearwater? Just give me a routine of the typical day that's not particularly difficult, not particularly easy but just a normal day at Clearwater when you were here at the height of --

MS. TAVERNA: A student?

MR. LeCHER: A student.

MS. TAVERNA: A student would have to -- let me see, my memory is a little foggy. Most of it was horror, so I don't remember a normal day --

MR. LeCHER: Well --

MS. TAVERNA: Well, you wake up -- every day is the same as every other day, which I have now found is a very destructive thing. In other words, you wake up and you have to be at muster at -- this is now maybe eight-fifteen, eight-thirty, something like this. You must be there, and they say, "That's it." They call your name; it's very rigid, very official. Your muster is called and, then, you'll be given your schedule of the day: who you're auditing, what time. It's posted on the board.

You'll audit these people one after another. They come in and out. You might have six preclears; it's sort of like an assembly line. You finish with one, the next ones waiting. You take them in.

Then, you get your half hour lunch to run back and forth. You'll get: "Audit people, audit people," till ten o'clock at night.

You go to sleep; you wake up. It's exactly the same every day.. It is just a -- I lost touch with reality when I was there, like, I really didn't know what day it was, what month it was; it didn't matter. And most of it was through severe physical pain. I just -- it was a big blur.

MR. LeCHER: You said, "physical pain." But you were not -- earlier, you said you were allowed to go to a doctor. And, also, another time they said you couldn't, or you implied that. I Am I to conclude that you could go if you could convince the Medical Officer that it was serious enough?

MS. TAVERNA: I didn't even think of going to a doctor; I didn't care. I didn't ask to go; I didn't -- I just wanted to get out of there. I knew that once I got away, I didn't need a doctor; I had to go home.

And when I did go home, I was in perfect health after about two weeks. I haven't had any problems with it. I mean, I wasn't chronically ill with arthritis; I mean, it hadn't bothered me in maybe eight years. It's not that I was suffering with this and I came into Scientology to handle it. I didn't care about it.

It was just from this undue stress that something happened to my system. So, I really never had any thoughts about the doctor. I just wanted to leave.

MR. LeCHER: Did you ever see any skimming of the million dollars a week coming in? Did anybody try and skim or -- within the organization, or take a little bit off the top?

MS. TAVERNA: I have no information on the money or where it went.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah. Lori, let's talk about education. You said your daughter went to a Scientology school how long while in Pinellas County?

Ms. TAVERNA: Oh, no, she didn't go to school here.

MR. CALDERBANK: She didn't?

Ms. TAVERNA: No. She went to school in New York and, then, she went to school in Los Angeles while I was training here.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. As a Scientology school, did they have specific hours at all for education, a certain number of hours?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes. Well, when she went to private -- it was a private Scientology school which I paid $225.00 a month for. That's where she went to in New York for most of her life.

When she joined the Sea Organization, she was in Los Angeles. She only went to school three times in seven months, so there was no hours for school. My nephews were in school at the time and in the Sea Org. and their senior told them -- they were, I think, twelve and ten -- he said, "We're going to give you the minimum education required by law," which happens to be two hours a day, I think. And he said, "Instead of" -- I said, "What did you learn in school?" He said he had algebra; that was the only thing he had in seven months, and he only had that a few times.

And his senior told him that "After a couple of weeks, we're going to use these two hours for your Scientology training." He said, "You won't have to go to school at all.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. Did -- do you have any knowledge of the education here in Clearwater for the children?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay on your medical -- on the Medical Officer, you said that you made it to a doctor here in town who prescribed you certain medication, certain routines for you to get better; is that correct?


MR. CALDERBANK: Once you got back to the Scientology headquarters, were you allowed to complete that treatment?

MS. TAVERNA: I didn't -- I wasn't prescribed any medication. It was basically bed rest, and I was to walk an hour a day and hot baths three times a day.

MR. CALDERBANK: Were you -- did you do that?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I didn't. I did it maybe two days. And I don't know why, but I never did it. I can't remember. I was -- it's a -- that period is very foggy because I -- it's all blurred together. I know I didn't take walks.


MS. TAVERNA: I took a walk once and the Ethics officer came with me.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember who gave you the shot what the name of the Medical officer was when you came to Clearwater?

MS. TAVERNA: I've been trying to remember his name and I just can't. I never really -- I guess I did know his name at the time. But it would be on record, I guess, who was the Medical Officer in 1979 of July or August.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you see any certificates on the wall from the state or the county, either for nursing or as an education for a doctor when this person gave you the shot?



MS. TAVERNA: I asked him if he was a doctor and he said, "No."

MR. CALDERBANK: And he gave you the shot?


MR. CALDERBANK. Is this a common practice that the Medical officer would do?

MS. TAVERNA: I never heard of it before. But every person who came to Clearwater got the shot; it's the first stop on their routing form. But I never heard of it before Clearwater.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. While you were at Fort Harrison, there are exits to and from the hotel. Were they clearly marked? Do you remember markings "Exit" or "Fire"?

MS. TAVERNA: I think so. It was once ordered that there was an alarm on it and never to use that door. It said, "Exit." And I think if you opened it up some alarm went off.

MR. CALDERBANK: Were there any instructions in front of the door?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't clearly remember.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember any trash or rubbish laying around or tight quarters that would obstruct fire personnel or block exits to and from the building?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I would say, tight quarters that I would think, it's my opinion, that, if there was a fire, with how many people were in each room, it would be very, very hectic trying to get out of the building, because each room had ten people. It's a very small room. The hallways were very, very narrow. I hadn't thought about it when I was there, but looking at it now, it would probably be chaos.

MR. CALDERBANK: How would you characterize the living conditions there? Would you characterize them as safe and clean and sanitary or unsanitary and unhealthy?

Ms. TAVERNA: I would classify it as unsanitary and very, very uncomfortable. With ten people in the room in the middle of the summer with no air conditioners and a lot of bugs crawling around, it was very, very uncomfortable and unsanitary.

MR. LeCHER: One bathroom?

MS. TAVERNA: One bathroom in the room, and we had to be on post at eight o'clock. It was very difficult to take a shower and find the right time to do whatever you had to do in the bathroom.

MR. CALDERBANK: Now, was this herpes outbreak here in Clearwater?

MS. TAVERNA: No. This was in Los Angeles.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you have any knowledge of hepatitis -- was there any hepatitis outbreak at Fort Harrison while you were there?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't know. I didn't hear about it.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. On the -- you were talking about the policy of bringing people back or the RPF, et cetera. Did you ever see anybody restrained or held against their will? Did you ever hear of anybody held or brought back?

MS. TAVERNA: I'm trying to think. I know -- I've positively heard of people being gotten and brought back, positively.

MR. CALDERBANK: Is this common knowledge?


MR. CALDERBANK: If you left, you would be brought back?

MS. TAVERNA: This is accepted. This is in the bulletin or policy. I think it's called Blown Students. It's in one of the training -- one of the policies concerning -- it's very -- it's not secret; it's out in the open. And I'm a trained supervisor and I studied it and checked out on this material where it says, "If a student blows, you're to do such and such -- call them." If they don't come if you're to go to their home, physically, and bring them back. This is common knowledge to Scientologists.

MR. CALDERBANK: How much money did you pay while you were a Scientologist to the organization, approximately?

Ms. TAVERNA: Well, in all these years when I was -- it wasn't as expensive when I came in 1965. 1 would have to just guess. In services, I probably ten $10,000.00 to fifteen thousand. In traveling expenses and living expenses for myself and my three children in England for six months, in California from England, I would say, maybe $30,000.00 I've spent. In loss of business, times that I left to go to this Ops Z and everything else, maybe $50,000.00, 1 would say, of money lost.

MR. CALDERBANK: Out of the services you paid for, did you ever think of it as a donation or did you pay specifically for a service?

MS. TAVERNA: No. There's no such thing as a donation in Scientology for a service. The only donation would be something to the -- I don't know what they call it, but I've donated to it many times, the legal fund. And I thought I was helping people who were being victimized by the government. They would always call me up because I would always give them $50.00, you know, because they knew I worked and had some money.

But that's the only donation I know of in Scientology. It's -- no one has ever mentioned the word to me. I've never heard it mentioned to any person who came in for a service. It's what course you want; this costs it costs this much money. You must pay for your course in full, specifically the amount that it lists on the card. And then, you can start your service.

MR. CALDERBANK: What made you take the service? Why would you spend $15,000.00 for the services?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, it isn't a -- see, when I came in, I didn't come in and spend $15,000.00. The most I ever paid at one time -- I paid for every level they had. In those days, for all the OT levels, it cost a little over $2,000.00, which now would cost a few hundred thousand dollars, maybe. So, that's the largest amount of money I ever paid, which I figured at the time the thing they used for promotion was that for the price of a car, at twenty -- at that time, twenty something hundred dollars, you can have eternal freedom or spiritual freedom.

It seemed so ridiculous. Why go buy a car when you can gain all this that was promised. It didn't seem like a large amount of money. So, I never paid these large sums. I took a course at $500.00.

I mainly audited and was a staff member. I think I was mainly interested in helping other people. I didn't receive much auditing. I've had very little auditing in Scientology. I didn't feel the need for it. I've been in relatively good shape and I didn't really require much auditing.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever tell people while you were auditing them that it would not cure their specific sicknesses and that it had no medical basis --

MS. TAVERNA: I didn't as an auditor. But it states on the E-Meter that "This does not cure illness." And I think, when people sign up, they have to sign something that "I'm not here to cure a specific illness."

MR. CALDERBANK: That's all.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: I have just a couple of questions here.You spoke very highly of Mr. Hubbard. I take it that you do not believe in him any longer?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't.

MR. BERFIELD: What about his doctrines and philosophies? Do you still have confidence in them?

MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't.

MR. BERFIELD: If you were to take some of these books and read them now, how would you look upon them?

MS. TAVERNA: I have done that. I have read over some of the material which was, I suppose, like a bible to me. And I found out some very fascinating things. I have gone through tremendous emotional upset in the last few months trying to get my mind straight from thinking for seventeen years it's very difficult. And I wanted to: I picked up some of the books and I looked at some of the policies, and it's like reading something that I've never read before. The interpretation that I put on it was my own ideas. I thought it meant what I wanted it to mean. Looking at things now, it says that if a person disagrees they must have a misunderstood word or something to that effect. I see the technology as totally, totally different now.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you -- would you envision it as being misleading to the public?

MS. TAVERNA: Definitely misleading.

MR. BERFIELD: To the point where one could call it fraud or not?

MS. TAVERNA: In my opinion, it is totally fraud.

MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple of other questions here: One of our purposes in this hearing is, needless to say, our concern with health, safety, and welfare of the people in Clearwater. You mentioned these children. As a mother, the safety or the health of those children, how would you look upon that? Do you think the City of Clearwater has done a disservice to them?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't think I understand the question? What is it you want --

MR. BERFIELD: Well, are we performing our duties if these children at the Fort Harrison are going unattended?

MS. TAVERNA: No. I feel that attention should be put on the children in Scientology. I feel that they are -- they have no say in this. Their parents are Scientologists. The children are neglected. And I think someone should do something about it.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Calderbank also asked you a question about the number of people in a room, ten to a room. You did mention, I believe, that you had some High authority inspections. Did you ever have any inspections from the Fire Marshall?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes, regularly.

MR. BERFIELD: How -- what did they say when they'd come to a room that had ten beds in it?

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I never saw them come into the room ever. We were just informed that they were going to be on the premises tomorrow. I don't what they looked at. I was doing my course and my auditing. I was never in a room where they walked in.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know for a fact whether or not they were given advance notice of these visitations by the various governmental agencies?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't know how they found out, but they knew the day -- or they knew, I don't know how much before, but they always told us when it was going to happen.

MR. BERFIELD: You also mentioned earlier that a woman had spent somewhere in the neighborhood of two to three hundred thousand dollars on programs. Do you know that for a fact?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, the person told me they did. I mean, I didn't see the money.

MR. BERFIELD: One -- I guess the last question and I don't really know how to word this -- but going on two points: Do you have any fear of retaliation from being here today?

MS. TAVERNA: I can say I don't know what to expect. In the beginning, when I first started this -- which I haven't really explained why I'm doing this, I mean, what brought this about, which I think is significant. I was in terror. I was in absolute fear when I made my first move to find out some more information. I would be cautious, I would say.

MR. BERFIELD: I guess the last part of this, the one that bothers me the most: While you were having your problems, do I interpret -- and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth -- that you felt that in the City of Clearwater there was no safe haven or no one to turn to for help?

MS. TAVERNA: It never even entered my mind. Through all the years of Scientology, it is embedded in you that you never speak to an outsider about internal problems. In other words, the technology is out. It's like a -- just a code of ethics, like, in other words, if we have a problem in Scientology and somebody is wrong, you don't go to an official because then they would think Scientology is bad, Ron Hubbard is bad. So, we just don't consider things like that. I never -- it never entered my mind. I thought I had to get out through Scientology, I had to rout out.

MR. BERFIELD: So, you had to go out through the system and, then, you --

Ms. TAVERNA: Yes. I never considered telling an outsider, because they would then not understand that Ron Hubbard was good and it's only these few people. You have to keep it secret and you keep it internal. You try to write up reports and try to protect Ron Hubbard and the organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Just one last one: Not to bear on your personal problems, but your divorce was caused by Scientology?

MS. TAVERNA: I wouldn't say it was caused by Scientology. I believe it was a contributing factor because most Scientologists don't associate with WOGs. I was one of the few exceptions, that I achieved this high state and my husband was still a WOG. I was the only one in Scientology at the time, and I was known for it.

And people would constantly say to me, "How could you stand it? How could you stand it?" And I couldn't communicate things in Scientology terms to my husband, and I would always be with Scientologists. And I didn't create my marriage properly because I did start to consider him an outsider. It's like -- it didn't cause it. Scientology didn't do anything to my marriage. It's my own distance that was created within it.

MR. BERFIELD: No further questions.

MR. LeCHER: You started before, and I'll ask you the question: What brought you here today?

MS. TAVERNA: After I left Clearwater, I felt that I had just escaped with my life. I really felt that I had been to a hell and that I was alive again. And I just I knew that I would never, ever be on staff or have anything to do with Scientology again. I didn't care if I wasn't contributing anymore. I said, "If it's that bad, let them fix it up. I had no intentions of doing anything against Scientology. I just wanted to stay away.

And then, I went recently, in November of this year -- just this past November -- I went to California to live with my sister. And Scientologists would constantly visit because that's basically the only friends they would have the Scientologists. And I was feeling good, standing very well thought of, and they kept telling me stories. And finally, I couldn't stand it anymore. A particular friend came over to the house -- she had just received her NOTS auditing -- and she came in and she said how wonderful she was feeling, that she went to a restaurant, she was eating a hamburger, and all of a sudden the hamburger started screaming at her, and then the walls started screaming. And then she said tears came out of her eyes because she felt so sorry for the other people in the restaurant because they didn't know what she knew.

And I got tears in my eyes, and I said, "They can't do this anymore. I want answers." And I looked at the grade chart, and I noticed that a lot of the OT levels were taken off and they were replaced with NOTS; every OT level was NOTS. And it became horrifying to me. I said, "I can't sit back anymore. I want answers. So, I just -- I looked through Paulette Cooper's book, Scandal -- I said, "Maybe, she'll give me a clue." Because up until then a Scientologist never reads anything bad about Scientology. You assume it's a lie immediately, so I was too ignorant to read it at the time.

I couldn't get that book. I called Reader's Digest. I looked and finally, I got in touch with a man named Brown McKee. And I spoke with him. He was a declared suppressive, I had heard, who was trying to save Scientology -- quote, "Suppressive Person." So, I said, "I have never talked to a Suppressive Person in seventeen years." It is a high crime; it is a terrifying experience. It took me two days to get up the courage to call Brown McKee.

I called him. He was one of the nicest people. He was in Scientology twenty-five years. As a matter of fact, he was on one of the courses I was. He's a Class 8 auditor and so forth. He had the same feelings I had all these years that something's wrong. And he all of a sudden, I tried to find another person and another person.

I met Eddie Walters. And we all felt -- and I saw more and more of my friends being damaged. And I said, "I want answers now. I want to know where Ron Hubbard is. I want to know who is running Scientology." I asked them at the advanced organization in Los Angeles. I said, "Who are the Board of Directors? Who is the Watchdog Committee?" This is a committee which no one knows who it is. And I couldn't get any answers.

And finally, I started to have thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard. I said, "Wait." I started waking up. I figured it took this time from Clearwater to be away from Scientology. I started thinking straight. And I said, "We are being audited towards more ability, more freedom, more capability to OT," which is operating being or thetan. "How could Ron Hubbard, who is more capable than any of us, be more and more capable and he's hiding for fifteen years? Where is he? Why isn't he helping? Why isn't he coming forward? What" -- so, I asked the people in Scientology in the Sea Org. "Security."

I said, "I've been hearing 'security' for ten years. I had -- I don't understand it anymore." I said, "Security? Why doesn't he go on film and give a briefing to Scientologists in the world?" I was getting more and more upset. I said, "I want answers now. Who is running this? What kind of organization is this?" I saw the crimes happening.

I started to -- and I also questioned: "Well, how capable is this man?" I said, "His son is not talking to him, which is L. Ron Hubbard, Jr." I never met him, but I heard -- I knew -- I said, "How could he not be talking to his own father?" We had technology to handle anyone supposedly. His other son committed suicide; His wife is in jail. He's hiding. What kind of man am I following? What am I dedicating my life to?

I couldn't find the answers. And then, little by little things fell into place. And I did see documents of Ron Hubbard's past, and I had tremendous anger. My mind was boggled. I couldn't adjust my thinking of what had happened for the past seventeen years, that while I was at Clearwater Ron was -- he didn't care at all..

And that hatred has left, the anger has left. I have no -- I'm not on a crusade against Scientology; I have no vengeance whatsoever. I have -- I just -- I feel a responsibility to the people that I've talked to. I trained hundreds, maybe thousands, of students. They've trusted me. And they told me -- even after I told them what I felt about Scientology - they said, "How? But I always felt that I wanted to be like you." And they felt that I was the OT level. And I said, "No, that was me." And I want any Scientologist listening to know that, that I feel a responsibility to help any Scientologist that I could. I don't plan to attack Scientology at all. I just want to finish it right here and now and say that I'm not a Scientologist and maybe help someone to at least leave room to have some free thought to consider what I'm saying, and just look and say, "Am I happy? Do I see any of Scientology being applied in life?" And then, I want to go on with my own life.

And, also, I want to say that I consider almost most Scientologists that I know are some of the best people in the world. They're dedicated. They truly believe, as I did, that they're helping mankind. And I have -- they're my best friends, many of them. And they probably won't talk to me now but they're still my best friends.

So, that's why I'm here. I'm here to rid Scientology of all the lies and end it right here.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Do you have any questions, Mrs. Garvey?

MRS. GARVEY: Back in 1955, what was it that turned you on to this organization? Was it the background of Hubbard, was it the grandiose things they promised? What was it about --

MS. TAVERNA: The thing -- it was 1965, and the thing that got me was I was very, very impressed with Ron Hubbard. I thought that it was miraculous that one man developed something that could free mankind of all these ridiculous, irrational things and psychosomatic illness. I loved him right away. I loved him for being so courageous and going through the war and healing himself and studying in Asia for all these years just to devote his life to mankind. And I was so impressed that I loved him from the first moment. And it was a very traumatic thing for me when I found out.

MRS. GARVEY: What were you promised? Were they -- when you started taking some of these courses, did they promise any results for you, do you remember?

MS. TAVERNA: I was actually never sold auditing. In the old days -- it wasn't as bad in the earlier days. I just wanted it and came in.

I think part of my purpose was more to counsel people. I didn't have that many -- I didn't have any problems. The thing that it promised was I guess I was more interested in the aims of Scientology. I thought it was beautiful to be part of a group that was going to handle drugs, crime, war. I mean, it was like, "Gee! I found such a good purpose in life and my children now will have a saner world to grow up in."

That's why I joined. I joined just to make a better world. And I wasn't promised anything specific. You could see on the grade chart what you would attain, and I was very interested in more spiritual awareness. My main reason for coming in was that: the spiritual awareness and to understand death and what happens when you die and things like that.

MRS. GARVEY: You said you didn't take much auditing, but you did work as an auditor. Did you ever tell anyone that your auditing was confidential?

MS. TAVERNA: That their auditing was confidential?

MRS. GARVEY: Were you ever told auditing is confidential, the information that you --

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, positively. Every -- I mean, that is -- it's printed and you read it., you know. I don't even know where specifically. But that is very common knowledge. It's printed in a lot of places. Anything you say will, you know, be kept in confidence. It's assumed and it's also printed.

MRS. GARVEY: Would you have continued as an auditor if you, in fact, knew that this was not going to be kept confidential?

MS. TAVERNA: Never. One of the things that upset me and actually brought me to tears -- that I did see some information from a preclear folder that was used by the Guardian's Office. I saw the person's name and I saw all their sexual withholds, and I just -- I cried because that was something sacred to me as an auditor, that a person could tell me anything. And to me, it was the same as a priest. And I feel that all the people that had auditing, I subjected them to harassment. And it shocked me that -- it disturbed me very much.
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Part 5 of 6

MRS. GARVEY: You actually did see then an audit had been used?


MRS. GARVEY: When you were told about the official visit, what are some of the things that are needed to do? Did you --

MS. TAVERNA: You have to dress a certain way. On certain days, it said, "No jeans." You were to be polite to any WOG.

MRS. GARVEY: What about anything physically in the building?

MS. TAVERNA: That's what I'm trying to think of.

MRS. GARVEY: Was anything moved? Did anything have to be put away?

MS. TAVERNA: I saw things being moved. I didn't do it because I wasn't a staff -- I was training or being an auditor. But I saw things being moved and shuffled. And I don't know the details on that.

MRS. GARVEY: All right. But you do know then -- you can say, if there was, going to be a fire inspection, they knew ahead of time that there was going to be a fire code inspection?

MS. TAVERNA: Yes, no question about that.

MRS. GARVEY: I see. Even though our inspections are supposed to be spur of the moment, spontaneous?

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I didn't know that. I thought that they announced that --

MRS. GARVEY: No, it's not standard practice.

MS. TAVERNA: Oh. Well, then, they found out some way.

MRS. GARVEY: That's what I wanted to find out.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Commissioner, we frequently and most of the time announce that we're coming down to do an inspection --

MRS. GARVEY: But not all the time.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Generally, we do. We have --

MR. LeCHER: We would work our way down the street, though, wouldn't we, Mr. Shoemaker? Then, by the time that you start three doors away, then, they know that you're coming?

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's very true.

MR. LeCHER: So, they're warned that way, by just looking in the neighborhood.

MRS. GARVEY: What were you told or what did you know about the GO Office?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, what I was what I knew of the GO Office was they were kind of the elite of Scientology they were heroes; they were admired very much. I had considered going into the GO. They had tried to recruit me several times. They felt I had a good image and I could be very valuable to them. And I said, "Possibly sometime I might try it."

And the GO -- the purpose was to protect Scientology and make it safe: protect it from any enemy so myself, as an auditor, could go and counsel people without being harassed by our so-called enemies, which were numerous, mentioned all the time. I believed it totally up until recently that all these agencies are attacking us and, if it wasn't for the Guardian's Office., I wouldn't be able to be here and help people.

So, they were very well respected and admired. It was very secret. You never knew what they were doing. And sometimes, people were picked for a specific project and it was like an honor. And they kind of felt like a secret service guy; they would go around feeling very, very important. It was an honor to work for the GO.

MRS. GARVEY: You were never picked for any specific project that you were supposed to do?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't think I've ever done anything for the Go, other than I had mentioned -- that I was approached to be that agent. I never actually did Go projects.

MRS. GARVEY: Okay. One of the things we often wonder about is: Does anyone ever hear the news? You mentioned going out and trying to read the newspaper. There is no TV, no radio, no newspapers available?

MS. TAVERNA: You're not --

MRS. GARVEY: Would you believe them if you had them?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I -- I guess I wasn't as brainwashed as most because I believed what I read in the paper. But it's -- I don't know the word -- it's suggested that you don't read newspapers and you don't listen to the news. It is suggested that the news will always lie; it's predetermined. Don't ever, ever talk to a reporter. I was in fear of reporters. I thought they were all out to get us. You're not allowed to ever discuss anything. So --

MR. LeCHER: I am, too.

MS. TAVERNA: -- it's -- no. Reporters have always been in Scientology since -- from the day I came in. We have a policy that news reporters are not allowed to take a Scientology course. As the Director of Training, I used to interview people and give them a check on the E-Meter: "Are you here for any other purpose than you state?" I could clear -- give people clearance.

I was petrified of these reporters who could come in and destroy us. And then, I said -- recently, I said, "Why in the world can't -- I don't see any reason. Why can't a reporter come in? What are we doing here that's illegal? I'm teaching a course; I'm saving lives," which I did. I helped people by listening because I like people. I said, "Why can't a reporter come in and see what it is? How can every reporter be a Suppressive Person? This is insane."

But I said, "Why can't someone go on television?" I said, "I would go on television." When people were upset about Scientology, I'd tell them, "Well, that's not what it is." And they'd say, "Oh, I didn't even know that." So, in Scientology, no one answers questions. If you see an interview, he'll say, "Is this true?" And they'll ask you if your mother was a Nazi. They don't answer questions. So, there's this secretiveness about the press.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you -- or did you ever promise refunds if you did not achieve, if you did not accomplish what was promised?

MS. TAVERNA: Was I personally promised or -- it's standard policy that anyone who is not satisfied with a service in Scientology, their money is promptly refunded. It's part of the auditor's code, which says, "I promise to refund any money" --

MRS. GARVEY: Do you know of anyone that did receive any refunds?

MS. TAVERNA: Very few people. I mean, I don't even know if I know anyone personally.

I know of people who have attempted to get refunds. You have a kind of complicated routing form and you have to see a lot of people and it takes a very long time. I think some people got their money back because I -- people have been referred to as Refund Case. In those cases, it was a person who was attempting to cause a lot of trouble; in other words, it was a security risk or the person was connected to someone in the government or the parents were going to take legal action. I understand that -- I don't know the facts, but I understand the money was given back very promptly.

But if you were just an average person who came in, they'll say, "Well," you know, "write up your overts. And you'll go to cramming, you'll go to review; "Let's handle your case." And a lot of people who wanted a refund -- but it's hard to get out of that routing form. You change your mind because they found you a reason; they promised you a new process. You say, "Well, I think I'll hang around a little more."

So, I don't know of anyone. No one I know ever got their money back.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever have to sign a legal waiver a promise that you'd never sue, or do you know of anyone who has? Is that a standard policy?

MS. TAVERNA: I signed a lot of waivers, and I really don't -- I don't even know what they were. I signed bonds for $50,000.00, $100,000.00 that I wouldn't talk about certain things ever. That I wouldn't sue? I think my sister did because, when she threatened to call the Board of Health, they made her sign something after that that she'd never sue, I think.

But I had to sign a lot of things. There was one that I'd like to tell about, if I could.

MRS. GARVEY: Go ahead, if you want to tell us about it.

MS. TAVERNA: Well, this has to do with Clearwater. When I first joined the Sea Organization, I went to Los Angeles and I was filling out my life history, you know, my background and when I was on staff, what organizations, how long I stayed there. And I had to put something that I left the New York Organization. I was there for three years as the supervisor. I left in 1975. 1 finished my contract, which was two and-a-half years; I stayed an extra six months.

And then, my boyfriend at the time, who I was going with, developed cancer. And I became very upset about this, and I didn't know what to do. I was afraid of the medical profession at the time. You're told that they're suppressive: "They want to cut you up; they want to operate; the cancer's going to spread." I was frantic. I didn't know what to do.

A friend of mine, who happened to be a Scientologist and a very, very close friend, recommended a psychic healer in Mexico. I'd never heard of a psychic healer. You know, I had been in many healing practices. But I was so desperate and in such terror -- he told me that he had a blind son, and he told me that the doctor had taken a tumor out from the back of his son's eye with his hands, with no things.

And with him telling me that, a Class 8 and such a good friend of mine, you know, sane-type person, stable -- he wasn't one of the flaky ones who was flying in space -- I wishful thinking, I said, "Maybe, maybe this is true." And I went to Mexico. And my boyfriend didn't go to -- he went to the doctor. The doctor wanted to do a biopsy, and we said, "No, no." We went to Mexico. When I went there, I walked into the office and I was shocked. I felt that I was back in Scientology advanced organizations. Every person in the waiting room was a Scientologist. And some of them were my good friends that I had done courses with in 1968. They were Class 8s; they were OT 6's and -- a high level of training and processing. And they all had cancer. And I was shocked. I said, "What are they doing? You know, "How could this be?"

I was very optimistic then about the healer, and I went into, I guess, hallucinating at the time. I just had blind faith that this was going to save his life. And then, a friend of mine was there and she said that she wrote a letter to Ron Hubbard asking him what he felt about this fellow, his name was Feliciano. What did he think about psychic healing? She showed me the telex from Ron Hubbard and what it said was that "I believe this is valid therapy." He said, "I am not recommending it, but I believe it is the only therapy on the planet. I feel it is the truest form of surgery on the planet. But I'm not recommending it."

So, I felt relieved that even Ron Hubbard said that this might work, not that I went I came there because of Ron Hubbard, but it's more it gave me a little bit more confidence. I stayed there for two or three months and things got worse. And I had to bring my boyfriend back to New York, and he died in Sloan Kettering about three months after he first got there. It was very quick.

Now, when I arrived at LA to join the Sea Organization, they -- I happened to mention -- I don't know why -- that I left staff. I was like filling in my life: "I went to Mexico with my boyfriend." I was explaining that I wasn't on staff during that period.

I was waiting to leave Clearwater and a fellow came down to see me and said, "The GO wants to talk to you about something. They said they want a full report on this psychic healer. They want to know what happened, who was there, what happened in Mexico." I wrote a detailed report about every person who was there, what happened. I happened to include the telex. Someone came down and told me that I had to sign a waiver, I think it was for $50,000.00, that I'd never discuss this with anyone. And they said that I didn't really see a telex from Ron Hubbard.

MRS. GARVEY: You did --

MS. TAVERNA:, I didn't see it. And I signed a waiver that I didn't see a telex from Ron Hubbard. And I looked at it and I said, "Well, there's probably some PR reasons that they don't want it out that Ron Hubbard associated his name with a psychic healer or that people did die." And I never in Scientology compromised my reality. I never went along with something that I didn't think was totally, totally ethical. But this time I did. I said, "It's not that important. I don't care about the healer anymore. And there's no one I want to tell about it."

So, I signed the paper thinking, "Well, they're looking to protect Ron's name, so I'm not going to talk about it." But when I got to Clearwater, this Skip Henson brought it out and he humiliated me. And I was still very sensitive about the subject and --

MR. LeCHER: Well, that's fine. Mrs. --

MS. TAVERNA: I just wanted to say one thing that he said to me. He started screaming at me when he saw the report. And he said, "Do you know that that squirrel" -- squirrel in Scientology is someone who doesn't apply Scientology standardly or goes into another practice. He screamed very loud -- he didn't say it to me he said, "Don't you know that squirrel, squirrel" he screamed it at me. "How could Scientologists go to that dadadada. Don't you ever talk about this," you know. And I was very upset at the time and choked up.

He was talking without any knowledge of what I had been through. And, also, when he was sick, I tried in desperation -- I called every Scientology organization in the world and I asked for help. And they said, "We can't help you."

MR. LeCHER: Anything else, Mrs. Garvey?


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett.

MR. FLYNN: A point of information, Mayor, if I may?

MR. LeCHER: Certainly.

MR. FLYNN: The question of a legal release was brought up by Mrs. Garvey. We will be putting into evidence the standard legal release which is contained in their standard volume, which, I believe the evidence will show, most Scientologists sign. But I believe the evidence will show that most Scientologists don't even are not aware of what they are signing. We will be putting that into evidence, together with actual -- the form, together with actual forms that have been signed by former Scientologists, together with promissory notes, waivers, and affidavits as to the type of --

MR. LeCHER: Will you be doing that after this witness's testimony? Will you be doing it today?

MR. FLYNN: I'm not sure it will be today in terms of point of order of our witnesses and our evidence, but it will be in before tomorrow afternoon. And there's substantial -- a great deal of evidence pertaining to this subject.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett.

MR. HATCHETT: Fine, thank you. I'd like to ask you a few questions, please. When you came to Clearwater in 1979 and you found things in disarray, why did you not turn around and go back, you couldn't?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I felt I came here to do this course and it was going to be the greatest thing that ever happened. And I was used to -- after fifteen years of overcoming the obstacles of the insane people, I said, "Well, I know they're just stepped on and crazy. They just don't understand the real technology." So, I wasn't shocked. I just thought that it wouldn't be at Flag. I've seen it in every organization. But Flag is the ultimate; it is the highest -- when you go to Flag, it's the biggest honor in the world. So, I didn't expect to see it here, but I wasn't shocked.

MR. HATCHETT: All right. You said, when you left Clearwater trying to escape, before that you felt like a prisoner --


MR. HATCHETT: -- you were going insane, and you feared for your life. Was that a form of kidnapping?

MS. TAVERNA: Well --

MR. HATCHETT: It was against your will. If you wanted to go --

MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. I wasn't kidnapped. There's a lot of -- it's a mental --

MRS. GARVEY: Mental kidnapping.

MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. It's -- you know you can't leave. Plus, I've heard stories of physical abuse and locking up. And I know people who were in chain lockers chained up. I spoke with them, not at Clearwater. I don't know -- it was probably in Los Angeles on the ship. But I knew that there were forms of punishment, and there's also an obligation not to leave even if you wanted to. When you're a Scientologist, you are mentally hooked. After Clearwater, I was out, but I wasn't out.

My mind -- I was still a Scientologist up until two months ago. And I thought I was out. Even after I thought I was out again, it didn't happen actually until a few weeks ago where I now feel that I am back to a free-thinking individual. I also feel that I'm now part of the human race again. And I'm -- I've been very happy for the last few weeks. I feel like I have a new life now.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. Before coming to Clearwater, you were instructed not to talk to Clearwater residents, not only Clearwater officials.

MS. TAVERNA: This is after I arrived I was told that.

MR. HATCHETT: Why did they tell you Clearwater residents? I may understand why not Clearwater officials --

MS. TAVERNA: Anyone in Clearwater not a Scientologist.


MS. TAVERNA: They didn't say residents. They didn't say, "Don't talk to them." They said to be polite, to say hello, but don't discuss anything of your business here or why you were here. Give the pat answer, which was "I'm here for religious counseling," or some thing like that.

MR. HATCHETT: Didn't you feel you lost your business as a result of Scientology, the events in New York?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, it's directly related. I kind of -- through Scientology, I tend to take a lot of responsibility for my decisions. I don't like to blame people --

MR. LeCHER: What was your business in New York?

MS. TAVERNA: I did -- I had a store at one time, a souvenir store in Times Square in Manhattan. I have computer pictures that go on a tee shirt. I did promotional work for radio stations. And I've had -- every time I came out, I started a new business.

The computer machine I still have; I still get jobs. I do parties and promotional work.

MR. HATCHETT: I'm going to stop at this moment.

MR. LeCHER: Do you have any questions, Mr. Shoemaker?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, Mayor, if I might. Miss Taverna, you went into the education of the children. Do you know, are there any specific types of qualifications that the teachers are to have --


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- to teach the courses?

MS. TAVERNA: The people who teach the children are not teachers; they're staff members. They don't have any teaching degree.

MR. SHOEMAKER: They do not have a teaching --


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- degree?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't know any. I think there might have been. I think there was one in the Ability School where my daughter went in New York. But I know for a fact that the teachers in Los Angeles were not teachers when my daughter was there.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Is that considered to be, in Scientology, a good job or a bad job or --

MS. TAVERNA: To be a teacher?


MS. TAVERNA: I really don't know. I do know from other staff members that to be a nanny, which is a person who takes care of the children -- I've heard this from other staff members who have to do with personnel that very often when they have a person that they consider slightly degraded or who can't handle a post, they put them on nanny. I got this from my sister-in-law who was the nanny for many years in the Sea Organization. She blew a few times and came back because she wanted to help children. She was confronted with a situation where she had to watch thirty and forty infants at a time. And the Board of Health would be coming in for inspection, and she had to hide ten and twenty children in a closet.

She told me they had things called Quiet Drills regularly. Children were trained at certain periods of time they must be quiet; they didn't know why. They were put in a room, the door was locked and, until the officials left, they couldn't make any sounds. I justified this as "We're doing the best we can. We don't have room for the children. We can't close Scientology." All this has been justified. But I will never justify another thing again.

MR. SHOEMAKER: When you initially arrived at the Fort Harrison or during your --

MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry, I just --

MR. SHOEMAKER: Sure. At the time you were or during the time when you were in Scientology, did you ever go through a security check or --

Ms. TAVERNA: Yes. I've had a security check many times. When you arrive somewhere -- I was on the -- one of Ron Hubbard's ships in 1968, which is the Royal Scotman. I was there when he was on the ship; I met him. And before you enter any place where Ron Hubbard is, you must be security checked. If you are going to get a leave of absence or leave the premises at any time, you have to get a security check. At Clearwater, as an auditor, I was called to do many security checks on people if they were taking a leave or a vacation for a week.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time you were auditing and in my understanding of the auditing process, you're actually auditing as to -- whether the beliefs are being accepted or not of the person that you're auditing and for the courses at that time; would that be correct?

MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry; I didn't understand the question.

MR. SHOEMAKER: If you were -- your audit specifically relates directly to how well the person is doing in the given course that they might be in at that particular time, such as this NED for OT auditing that you were doing to the people that were actually doing the course. And you have indicated that you had some concern about what you were learning in that course.

Did that ever bother you at the time you were doing the auditing to try to determine what the other person --

MS. TAVERNA: That I was auditing the other people, was I concerned? I became --

MR. SHOEMAKER: That they --

MS. TAVERNA: I became very concerned with people that I was auditing because I saw very strange things from the people that I was auditing. Specifically, one person, who I went to the Director of Processing said, "I refuse to audit this person." He had a strange glare in his eyes. He was running this NOTS process. And I won't go into the technical things of the E-Meter, but the E-Meter is supposed to register a certain way when you feel better; the needle will go down.

This fellow was realizing things and the needle was going up. He was -- I could see by his face that he was not there; he was in a daze. And he was like -- he sort of had an insane look, and he was saying how wonderful talking slowly -- nothing was happening on the E-Meter. And I said, "There's something wrong with this person," and I said, "I'm not auditing him."

So, they took me off the case and I understand he was really giving it to other auditors. Specifically, another person, I also -- I felt like I was betraying the people that I was auditing and I didn't want to do it anymore.

MR. SHOEMAKER: With the -- I notice there are at least two observations, at least, the people that come here to Clearwater, many of them are young. You don't see a great number of elderly people. Would that be a fair surmise Do you have any reason as to why that is the case?

Ms. TAVERNA: I think it's always been that way from -- even when I came in. I think young people are very susceptible to this because it sounds like such a beautiful purpose. Most young people have ideals and they want to change the world. And when you come into Scientology -- I've seen people who open the door and they are just like flying for weeks and weeks. They feel they've found something. And they -- young people will recognize the outnesses in this world and they don't know how to change them. And you walk in the door and you find a group of people who have a good purpose and want to change the world. I think they're much more susceptible. And they don't have that much experience in life to know exactly what they're getting into.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes. Since you've left Scientology -- first of all, did they know -- I'm sure they do now -- but did they know before now --

MS. TAVERNA: I would say that most of the Scientologists in the world have no idea that I left up until now -- they all know. But when I finally called Brown McKee and started getting answers, I just -- I realized that I didn't have to see any documents. I don't care about Ron Hubbard's past. I realized that I had been absolutely miserable for the past ten years. I hated it. I fought all the staff members. I don't care if it's true or it's not true; I don't want to be part of it. So I actually forgot the question, but I wanted to say something about it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You answered it very well. The other part --


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- of it is just basically: Have you had any kind of -- has anyone tried to put any pressure on you or --

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, yes, I remember. So, what I did was I -- oh, basically -- my sister will tell her story. She was married to someone in the Sea Org. at the time. He was living with us at my sister's house.

So, here I was, you know, talking to suppressives and "This fellow's going to get killed. He's going to go in the RPF." We're talking to lawyers. We're talking to the biggest SPs in the world. I don't think any of you really understand how traumatic -- it's unthinkable.

So, we were shaking. I was in such fear I couldn't sleep for days. So, we told my sister's husband because we knew that we were going to be out now. So, he went back and he told them and we since called them and told them we no longer -- I didn't want my name associated with it.

We had no harassment at all. I was very surprised. I did get phone calls from old friends from '66. Students who I haven't heard from since 1965 called me up: "Do you remember me? I want to tell you that you changed my life and I love you." And it's sincere because I did. And he said, "Please, if I can help you, I'm here. And I said, "I want you to know that I'm in fine shape and there's nothing wrong, nothing to handle." But they attempted to have old friends call me up to get to me because they knew my button, which is something that you react to, is help. And if I know I can help someone, to kind of go back. But I was already over it and nothing could change me.

But the -- I was in terrible fear, but I have had no harassment.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During the process that you were in or while you were in Scientology, did anyone attempt to use the information you provided through the auditing process., when you were audited, against you to --


MR. LeCHER: Are you --

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, give me just a second and I'll be finished. Were you aware of what's been referred to as the Fair Game Policy?

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, yes. That was in effect when I was on staff.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that was up until you said you just left -- when did you leave Clearwater?

MS. TAVERNA: Well, I left Clearwater in December of 1979, and I officially left, mentally, Scientology -- no -- two
weeks ago. Two months I'm out of the organization.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, up until two months ago, you were still an active Scientologist?


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- and as far as you know, the Fair Game Policy was still in effect?

MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I don't know. I don't know if it was in effect as of two months ago; I really don't know. I meant, I have seen it in effect. I don't know currently if it is. I assume it is. It's in effect through actions because I know things are done to people. And I know Scientologists will do anything they have to to protect Scientology. And I remember feeling that way, and I have compassion for them because I was so misled that I felt it was justifiable -- it was justified to stop a Suppressive Person who wants to harm good people. And I believe it will always be in effect; that policy will never be out of effect in actions. It was probably cancelled officially.

MR. SHOEMAKER: One more question and, then, I'll stop.


MR. SHOEMAKER: And really, I do appreciate listening to you. I think it's really been an educational process for all of us.

In the auditing process, is there -- and this kind of relates -- let me ask two questions. Were there any types of clinics provided for people that were ill or had cuts or scratches or headaches or anything like that, or anyone that had a toothache or any problem or something like that at any of the -- any organizations where you came and stayed for the counseling and so forth?

MS. TAVERNA: No. There was a Medical officer; he had a first aid kit. And if you needed a dentist, you would -- you know, you could go to a dentist.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Would he prescribe drugs?

MS. TAVERNA: I don't know. He never did with me. He prescribed -- I saw him prescribe vitamins. He prescribed vitamins for me when I was sick. I don't remember what they were. He told me to take this and that. Basically, nutritional things: what to eat, take Calmag every day for your nerves.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I understand that in the auditing process that there was a procedure or there was a policy not to provide auditing for somebody that was diagnosed as terminally ill?


MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you -- did they ever explain the reason or why that policy was --

MS. TAVERNA: In the early days when I was in Scientology, I just assumed that Dianetics would handle anything. I --


MS. TAVERNA: -- mean, there was alll talk about cancer. But then, I saw so many of my friends die of cancer who had the highest level of auditing. And I, well, my boyfriend died, and he couldn't get any auditing. So, I know it's not allowed.


MS. TAVERNA: I assumed that it was because the person was dying and, if you audited them, Scientology could be connected to the failure. And the person dying, it would be a bad promotional activity to audit someone who was going to die because I don't think it had any chance of saving them.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: As the Mayor of the city, I'd like to think about the image that you have of the city. And I when you mention Rome, you get a certain mental image; when you mention Salt Lake City, you get another image. And I guess you get a totally different one when you mention Dachau.

What did you think of when you were going to come to Clearwater, when you first arrived? And what did you think of Clearwater after you escaped? You mentioned the word "hell" before. Does that have any connotation with our city?

MS. TAVERNA: What I thought of Clearwater was just so horrible; I couldn't believe that anyone lived here. I -- I hated everything about the city. I heard the name and the association was with misery and pain, and I said it was ugly and horrible. And it just meant pain and misery to me. I said I would never come back here for the rest of my life or look at. I got almost physically ill when I looked at pictures of it. I would get tremors for about a month after if I got a brochure and looked at the Fort Harrison. And I noticed something interesting last night. I was on the balcony of where I am staying, and I looked at the beach and I said, "It's one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been in." And I'm looking through new eyes. And I said, "What did I think was so horrible?" It was being in an atmosphere that was so ugly and so suppressive.

I don't think of it -- I mean, I might still have a little funny feeling about Clearwater, but I know it's not that way now.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you. If you stay a couple of more days here, you'll love it, too.


MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much. You've been very good, very cooperative, and a very brave lady.

MS. TAVERNA: Thank you.

MR. FLYNN: Mayor, can we take a ten-minute recess?

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

(Whereupon, the hearing resumed.)
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Part 6 of 6


MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats, members of the Commission, staff, consultants, citizens. We are going to listen to this young man and we are going to try to run through it as rapidly as possible, but also to be as thorough as possible because we do have a City Commission meeting starting in about an hour. And we are going to get started with this young man. And his name is Casey Kelley.

Mr. Kelley, will you please be sworn in.

CASEY KELLEY, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. FLYNN: Mayor, before he begins, I would just like to offer two items into evidence as the next exhibits. One is a book, All About Radiation, which was discussed this morning, a copy of which this Commission looked at by a nuclear physicist and a medical doctor, which has been purchased within the last twenty-four hours from the Fort Harrison and Scientology buildings here in Clearwater.

The next is the book, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, which will be offered into evidence at this point, and the purpose for which I will state at another time.

(The book, All About Radiation, was marked as Exhibit No. 28, as of this date; The book, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, was marked as Exhibit No. 29, as of this date.)

MR. LeCHER: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Kelley, I'd like to ask you the five standard questions that I'm asking of every witness before they testify. Number one is: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?


MR. LeCHER: Number two: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater?


MR. LeCHER: Number three: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: Not at this time.

MR. LeCHER: Number four: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?

MR. KELLEY: I hope not. No, they don't.

MR. LeCHER: I hope not, too. Number five: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you should change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Mr. Kelley, you have an outline I'd like you to follow and, then, get into it in your own words.

MR. KELLEY: All right. The first thing, I'm terrified. I've never spoken in public in my life.

MR. LeCHER: Well, calm down.

MR. KELLEY: Let me just--

MR. LeCHER: We can ask you questions, if you'd prefer.

MR. FLYNN: He'll --

MR. KELLEY: Let me -- let me --

MR. FLYNN: try and get started --

MR. KELLEY: begin on some of the background information here. I joined the Sea Org. in March of 1977 when I was going to Florida State University. I was eighteen at the time. I got to Flag Land Base --

MR. LeCHER: Could you speak a little louder? I don't think they can hear you. Pull the mike a little closer.

MR. KELLEY: Okay. I got to the Flag Land Base the day after Christmas 1977, and left here in October of 1980. I'm currently enlisted in the United States Navy. I had several jobs when I was here at Clearwater. My main one was the job title called Technical Arrivals Data in Charge. It's kind of a lofty title, which meant I had -- I have no knowledge of criminal activities in the Clearwater area or any other area, actually.

These are some of the things that I was doing on the job. When I was the Technical Arrivals Data --

MR. LeCHER: Excuse me. Did you say you have no knowledge or new knowledge?

MR. KELLEY: No knowledge.

MR. LeCHER: No knowledge.

MR. KELLEY: No knowledge, none.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Would you give that title again, please, Mr. Kelley?

MR. KELLEY: Technical Arrivals Data in Charge.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. KELLEY: One of the things they tend to do is pay you in title. My job was -- I kept the accounts I kept an account record for every person that was on public lines at Flag, which is somewhere around five thousand names. I would go to treasury and go through every invoice that was written, and I had an accurate list of people who had made an advanced payment to the Flag Land Base.

And the reason I did that was we would find out who had paid fully for a service and, then, we, our office would call them to get them to show up at Clearwater to do that service. It's --- especially with Scientologists, there's a lot of people that can afford to pay for these services but don't have the time to show up. So, what we would do is our office would call them and try to get them to show up earlier than they had anticipated or just get them to show up. I personally took a lot of flak from these guys.

And then after they showed up, then we could deliver the service and then sell them more. You can't sell them any more if they haven't done what they already paid for.

We also used this list to sell books because they used to pay a percentage of the book sale to the staff member that sold the book. So, there were some people selling books. I could go into that later.

I was familiar with the ways that they got their money into the Clearwater Organization, but I wasn't directly involved with it. I wasn't -- I was in disagreement with the way they made some of their money: the high-pressure sales techniques that they used. I never -- I never -- and I still don't -- I never could tolerate that, the way they -- boy, "You've done your service and" -- drop the net. And people having to sell things and mortgage things seemingly against their will, or with great reservations -- reservations, not really wanting to but knowing that because Scientology is such a good thing, that's what they really should do next.

Anyway, back -- one of the ways that they make -- that the Clearwater Church makes money is they have three tours out, and almost all the time. They call it regging, making money. There's three tours out most all the time. There's one on the East coast, one on the West coast, and one in Europe. And they'll go from one city, either for a week, week and-a-half, two weeks, and then go the next one. And they make a lot of money that way. Especially in Europe, they make a lot of money in Europe.

Since I'm talking about money, we'll go down to that. The highest single week gross income that we made when I was here was 2.3 million dollars. And that's tax free.

MR. HATCHETT: Tax free.

MR. KELLEY: Well --

MR. LeCHER: Well, we know all about --

MR. KELLEY: You know all about tax free, right? I think that's one of the reasons why I'm possibly here. That was a good week. I would guess that the average weekly gross income while I was there, or at least while I was on this TAD post, was anywhere between four and five hundred thousand dollars. I don't know where all that money went. The people that do don't tell. It goes to what's called Sea Org. Reserves, which is kind of a --

MR. LeCHER: Who knows that?

MR. KELLEY: The people that are on the Sea Org. Reserves Committee. And that's a very few elite people. Those guys are people that have been in Scientology for a long time, usually. And they're pretty cloak and dagger. They don't -- they play their cards pretty close to their chest.

In 1980, when Scientology worldwide bought a whole bunch of buildings around the world -- they bought somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty-five million dollars worth of buildings around the world, and they paid cash for all of them. Those were all -- they didn't rent anything, because there was no point in renting anything; that was just money down the tubes. They believe in buying them.

The person that was in charge of the Sea Org. Reserves, the SOR Chief, came to Flag Service Organization -- you know, it was across the street -- to one of our staff meetings one Friday night, and he talked to us about it. Because the Flag Ship organization, which is -- or the Flag Service Organization is the organization here in Clearwater that delivers the services. They're the ones that do the auditing for the public people, and they sell the services. They make a majority of the money. Worldwide, they make a majority of the money. He came to our -- one of our staff meetings, and this is a quote -- Mr. Hinklenberg said - "All these buildings we bought make a dent in the reserves." The key word there is "dent." He said it made a dent in the reserves. He didn't tell us -- I mean, a dent could be two percent to seventy-five percent. He didn't say the exact percentage of the dent. Twenty-five million dollars, I would think I don't know. I don't know how much was in the reserves, he wouldn't tell us.

One of-the other things that I found very interesting is they have -- they don't keep more -- any more than $40,000.00 in any one bank in the Pinellas County area. Or in the bay area, they use banks in Tampa. So, consequently, I know that they have -- I would guess at least thirty bank accounts around the area, because I've seen the treasury office and they have a stack of checkbooks, you know. They're a stack of checkbooks this high. For example, the Clearwater bank account would be used for, say, tours. And the Barnet Bank down the street would be used for phones, for example. They have it broken up so it's easier to keep track where that money's going.

When I was in the FSO, we used to get a stat sheet out. We used to give a stat sheet to the Flag Bureau, which is the management organization in the West coast building. And they manage all Scientology organizations worldwide. And they publish the statistics. And usually, the organization in Clearwater's income is equal to that of the rest of the world put together. All Scientology organizations put together usually fall short of this place. And that is a lot of money. There are a lot of other Scientology organizations, also; I don't know how many there are. There's a bunch of them, including the big ones in Los Angeles. You know, our gross income here quite often was more.

I'll talk down here if you -- some of my knowledge about the Guardian's Office. In early '78 -- I chuckle about this now -- I was in charge of religious image. And they had a religious image checklist that I was supposed to follow and to help get in, help to upgrade the religious image of our buildings and our personnel around Clearwater. I was working for the Assistant Guardian for Public Relations, who, at that time, was Miss Nancy Risi, who I know you're familiar with.

MR. LeCHER: Yes, I remember her.

MR. KELLEY: A couple of things that I was in charge -- that I was supposed to do was get certificates, minister certificates, you know -- Larry Lattimore made them, that sort of thing -- up where people could see them if they wandered into Clearwater or any one of the buildings. You know, they'd see someone who was a minister sitting there. Or crosses -- I was also supposed to build those eight-point crosses, which is next to impossible.

I was also supposed to talk to our staff members and public about upgrading their image around town. You know, it was kind of hard to tell some of these people anything, you know, "Your jeans have frazzies on them." I felt kind of --it was kind of a wishy-washy job, and I wasn't real enthused about it because I didn't have the power. I was working as a minor staff member trying to do a major job. And I got it as a full-time job, and I did it maybe a couple of hours a week. I'd go around and do my checklist and find out where everything was not the way it was supposed to be, basically. And Miss Risi used to jump on me about it. What could I do? It wasn't my job. Anyway, one of the things: We used to have Guardian's Office briefings about fairly frequently, especially, when things were getting hot with Mr. Tenney and his band every now and then, when he was raising such a fuss here. We used to get these briefings from the Guardian's office, and they were usually pretty interesting. They would always make it sound like we were winning.

And one of the things that I remember was when they had the Jonestown tragedy in Guyana -- I wasn't really aware of what was going on out there. I didn't know they were a religious cult, because when you say "cult" to a Scientologist, he automatically turns you off, thinking that you don't know what you're talking about, thinking that you're anti-Scientology as soon as you say the word "cult," religious cult, dangerous cult, whatever. So, one of the things that they told us was that "You've got to keep in touch with your families during this Guyana thing, because they're going to get all concerned about you being in a religious cult." They told us to keep writing those good roads, fair weather letters. Whenever you had trouble at home, you were supposed to write: "Dear Mom," you know, "things are fine, weather is beautiful," you know, "getting a tan," you know, "went to Disney World last week." You know, you're not supposed to mention that the City of Clearwater is about ready to burn the building. You weren't supposed to tell them about the bad things, the bad news. You were supposed to just give them good roads, fair weather, just wishy-washy, ho-hum letters, which most people could see right through.

Since I've gotten out, my family has said -- has told me that when they'd get these letters, they knew that it wasn't me. It seemed a little fakey to them.

Anyway, there's a little thing on my outline about my -- about marriage and legal discretions. I don't know if you want me to go into that or not.

MR. FYNN: It's pertinent, go ahead.

MR. LeCHER: If the Attorney, Mr. Flynn, thinks it's pertinent, then, go ahead.

MR. FLYNN: For a very specific reason.

MR. KELLEY: Okay. I don't know about this. I was married on March 6th, '79. My wife and I obtained a marriage license and had blood tests here in Clearwater. We were married by a friend of mine in my office who is a minister. We were both ministers at the time, too, but that isn't pertinent. We were married by a Scientology minister.

Four months later, we got second thoughts about the marriage, which is really not apropos here. The minister said -- Reverend Al -- he said, "Well, you don't have to worry about a divorce because I never sent your marriage certificate in." He said, "I wanted to save you some trouble in case it popped up." I said, "Hey, no sweat, great," you know.

MR. LeCHER: Does your wife know she's no longer married?


MR. FLYNN: That's why it's significant, Mayor. But there still may be a legal issue and there may be a situation where neither party is exactly certain of their legal rights -- at this point as to whether they are married or divorced, because the city may have been allowing a minister of the Church to issue a marriage license which was not recorded. And both parties may now feel that they are married or divorced, and the matter is in limbo.

MR. KELLEY: I hope not because she remarried.

MR. LeCHER: I hope she's not a bigamist. Anyway, let's get back to reality. You're no longer married as far as --

MR. KELLEY: The reason we thought that we felt that was significant was that I don't think I was the only person to do that.

MRS., GARVEY: You mean, married by a Scientologist?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, no, there are tons of those. I mean, there's -- because people see that -- see, the no premarital sex law that they have, which is -- some of us had a little trouble adjusting to that, and though, we just still followed it. So, consequently, there's a lot of rapid marriages, short courtships. And at least -- you wouldn't believe -- you wouldn't believe it even if I told you. But -- and consequently, there's a lot of short marriages over there. But they're married by a Scientologist and the divorce is usually uncontested, at least amongst staff members.

Anyway, let's wander off here to living conditions. I lived in all three buildings that staff members lived in while here. I lived at the Fort Harrison, the Quality Inn, and the Heart of Clearwater.

Most of that time I spent in rooms with ten to twelve people in them, regular hotel rooms. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It usually averaged about eight to ten, because I had many different rooms. People would move often.

When I first came on staff here, they had what's called the men's dorm. You won't believe this. We had fifty-four bunks in that room.

MR. LeCHER: In one room?

MR. KELLEY: It wasn't a hotel room; it was a little bigger than that. It was in the old locker room of the old Jack Heart Hotel. It was downstairs and, obviously, there wasn't a whole lot of room to move around down there. But it was definitely -- it was fifty-four bunks and -- I'm trying to remember if we had any vacancies. There was probably forty-eight men living in there at the time, and I lived there for six months. That wasn't a real pleasant place; it was pretty crowded.

That's all I have for my statement.

MR. LeCHER: Well, you mentioned that the money was as high as 2.3 million and averaged four to five hundred thousand dollars a week.

MR. KELLEY: That's correct.

MR. LeCHER: And the Sea Org. took the money.


MR. LeCHER: Do you know their names, the Sea Org. people?

MR. KELLEY: I know the post titles, a couple of them. One of them was the SOR Chief, and -- boy. I'm trying to remember. I know who was in on it, how's that? One of them was the Director of Records, Assets, and Materiel. And his name was Homer Shomer.

MR. LeCHER: Homer Shomer?

MR. KELLEY: Homer Shomer. A nice a nice, little Jewish man, Homer Shomer and --

MR. LeCHER: Well, we don't want to get into nationalities or religion.

MR. KELLEY: Well, that's another story. Anyway, Homer knew what was going on at the SOR. But, like I say, these guys played it pretty close to the chest. He mentioned to me one time about investing it in possibly gold or gems of some kind. But he definitely did not go into specifics. This was when gold was going for, I think, eight hundred dollars an ounce or something. There was speculation on what they should invest some of this money in. They also mentioned something about property. But this was just in passing. I used to hang out in his office while I was digging through invoices. But he didn't say, "We bought fourteen pounds of gold." But he said SOR was considering it, the SOR Committee.

Some of the other -- one of the other posts in charge that was in on that SOR -- I can't remember the exact title. It was a person that was in charge of all treasury departments worldwide. There's a person over in the West coast -- most Scientology organizations have seven divisions. Around the world, most of them have seven.

There's a person at Flag that's in charge of all of those -- of each of them. Like, this person is a person in charge of the treasury division. And she was in on it. She was in charge of all finances worldwide. But I --

MR. LeCHER: Do you think all that money went back to Los Angeles that was collected in Clearwater or was it spread to do good work in the City of Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: I don't know exactly where it went.

MR. LeCHER: Where the money went. You just know you collected it?

MR.-KELLEY: Right. I know where some of it didn't go.

MR. LeCHER: Do you want to tell me where it didn't go?

MR. KELLEY: Yeah. one of the places it didn't go was for meals for the -- food. It was not like no -- we were fed, but it was often low quality. Especially for the amount of money we were making, like, you know -- they were making -- say, we had a bad week and only made four hundred thousand dollars. You know, the expenses aren't going to come near that, you know.

MR. LeCHER: Well, didn't you also get fed beans and rice?

MR. KELLEY: On one occasion for a week we did, which was an interesting story.

MR. LeCHER: I heard -- we --

MR. KELLEY: I mean, Miss Taverna mentioned something about that. What had happened was -- we had a person that was treasury secretary for the Flag Ship Organization who was a little off his rocker. And what he was doing, basically, was making up money. He was reporting money that hadn't actually been turned in.

And so, the organization thought they had this amount of money to spend, when, in fact, it was down here, all right? And this guy was -- I mean, he was the big cheese. But he was the new kid on the block, you know, he was the boy wonder. He was making all this money; no one actually saw it. But here he was making all this money.

And our gross income was over the five hundred thousand dollar mark, which, at that time, was the highest ever. I mean, it was just phenomenal. Most of it was coming from this one guy in the department. And it was just great; boy, we were all enthused about it. And then, we found out that this guy wasn't all -- he didn't have all his stuff in one bag, and he got -- they put him in the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: He belonged in the RPF.

MR. KELLEY: Right. I mean, this guy was nuts. He was reporting money that we didn't have.

MR-. LeCHER: Was that Homer Shomer?

MR. KELLEY: No. Let's not make Homer jokes. What happened was we got a telex from Ron, from L. Ron -- from LRH that said, "You thought you could make five hundred thousand dollars, so do it." And that is a quote. "You have by the end of next week to do it. You better get your honest GI up to five hundred grand or you're going on beans and rice." And our honest GI, at that time, was around three hundred, three hundred fifty, you know.

MR. LeCHER: What is an honest GI?

MR. KELLEY: That's what we were already making before David what's his face was falsely reporting statistics. So well, we didn't make it. We didn't come up. We didn't make five hundred thousand dollars by the deadline. We went on beans and rice. I remember that was on my birthday, 1978. And I remember it because everybody else was eating beans and rice and I had cake. it was October 13th --

MR. LeCHER: Didn't that bother you, though, to take in four or five hundred thousand a month and have beans and rice?

MR. KELLEY: That's a week.

MR. LeCHER: A week? A week, rather. Didn't that get you to think, you know, "They can at least afford to give me a hamburger or a steak or a lobster," or something like that?

MR. KELLEY: I wasn't real pleased with it. But it -- and I really felt it was unfair to punish the whole staff because one guy was a little off, you know. I never have believed that you should punish everybody for one person's messing up. But you -- I was pretty well indoctrinated then. That was when I was new on staff and I wasn't -- I got disenchanted later on. So, this is when I was new and I was still dedicated. I think I ate at McDonald's that week.

MR. LeCHER: What were you paid?

MR. KELLEY: At that time, when I first came on staff, I was paid $8.60 a week.

MR. LeCHER: Eighty?

MR. KELLEY: Eight bucks

MR. LeCHER: Eight dollars?

MR. KELLEY: Eight-sixty, $8.60. That was for the first -- oh, boy, a long time, year and-a-half, until I became a full-fledged staff member and, then, it went up to seventeen-twenty.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Well, how did you live? I mean, you had to buy personal things. You had to buy toothpaste --

MR. KELLEY: My main vice is pipe tobacco. You just spread your money very thin. That's all you buy is your personal things. You don't go out, eat, nothing, you know.

MRS. GARVEY: You couldn't go to a restaurant often.

MR. LeCHER: You couldn't go to McDonald's very often.

MR. KELLEY: No. You couldn't go to McDonald's at all. Even when you were making the whole seventeen twenty, it was kind of rough to go. You know, see, when you're in the galley to eat lunch and you didn't like it, you know, you had whatever it was and you weren't enthused about that meal, you didn't go to McDonald's too often. You know, it was just kind of -- that's one of the main reasons I got out, because here I was working seventy to eighty hours a week and I'm making twenty bucks, you know. This did not jive. It just didn't add up.

MRS. GARVEY: Good thinking.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MR. KELLEY: It took a while --

MR. LeCHER: Okay. So, that gave you your first clue: seventy to eighty hours a week for $20.00 and you got disillusioned then.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Most of the people that I see walking down the street look about your age. Are they existing on family money or --

MR. KELLEY: Very few. There's a few people that have family money. And those are the people you see driving.

MR. LeCHER: Driving.

MR. KELLEY: I tend to make things sound funny when I'm nervous. I don't want to make this sound any less serious than it is, because it is very serious. People have -- most of the people, the staff members, that do drive cars have family money. David Ziff drives a Jaguar; he has lots of family money.

MR. LeCHER: Well, when you're living with fifty-five men to a room, an old locker room, didn't you question that that could be a -- cause disease or spread of disease or an epidemic --

MR. KELLEY: We were -- we kept it --

MR. LeCHER: -- or social problems, like the bathroom?

MR. KELLEY: We kept that place spotless. We really did; we did keep it clean. We kept it very clean, as a matter of fact. So, there wasn't too much spread of that.

MR. LeCHER: One question I'd like to ask -- and I don't know if you can answer me; you may be the wrong witness to ask this, but no one's asked it yet. Why Clearwater? And why did you come in under the United Churches of Florida? Why not what you really were?

MR. KELLEY: Because I doubt if you would have sold us the buildings.

MR. LeCHER: Well, I didn't have anything to do with selling the buildings.

MR. KELLEY: Well, when I was here, I asked -- that was the reason that I heard was that -- it's just speculation on my part or things that I've heard from people who were here at that time. They said they couldn't have bought the building or they would have raised the price of the building at the Fort Harrison if they would have found out who it was.

MR. LeCHER: But you just -- they just decided Clearwater was a nice little town they could take over?

MR. KELLEY: It had big, cheap hotels. In other words --

MR. LeCHER: Big, cheap hotels?

MR. KELLEY: That was another part of it. That's my wording, obviously, because the Fort Harrison was, to my knowledge -- it was rather run down when they bought it in '75. It was on a -- it was a buy, apparently. It was two million dollars or something.

MR. LeCHER: I think two-five.

MR. HATCHETT: Two-five.

MR. LeCHER: Well, I was in there, of course, not recently, but when it was the old hotel and I remember the rooms being very small, old salesman-type hotel with little tiny beds. I remember that type of room. I don't know how you could fit -- two people in that room would be a crowd. How anyone can fit eight or ten in those little tiny, old-timey salesman-type hotel rooms -- it's got to be -- something's got to be wrong someplace. There's got to be a health hazard or it's got to cause all kinds of other problems.

MR. KELLEY: I just got off a naval ship and it's pretty similar as far as size --

MR. LeCHER: They're not taking in four or five hundred thousand dollars a week, either.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Okay. I can go on, but I'm going to yield now to regging tours?

MR. KELLEY: Regging tours?

MR. LeCHER: Regging tours and how they channel business back to Clearwater. What is this all about, regging tours?

MR. KELLEY: Regging.

MR. LeCHER: Regging.

MR. KELLEY: You -- it's a registrar. A person who -- a registrar is a person who takes in money. He tells the person how much he needs the service or -- and then, gets him to give him a check for the service. Like I said, they've got three regging tours that are out around the world just regging up money for the Clearwater operation.

MR. LeCHER:. How do you get to be a regging?

MR. KELLEY: Reg, a registrar?

MR. LeCHER: It's not the best job. I mean --

MR. KELLEY: Those guys make good money; they make good bonuses.

MR. LeCHER: Are they paid commission?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. Not on -- they're paid commission on books.

MR. LeCHER: From this four to five hundred thousand to a million or 2.3, did anybody get a cut on that?

MR. CALDERBANK: Or a bonus?

MR. LeCHER: Or a bonus, like --

MR. KELLEY: Oh, certainly. The whole staff -- everybody got a bonus. Everybody got at least $150.00. Everybody got at least a bonus on that one.

MR. LeCHER: Even you?

MR. KELLEY: Even me. Everyone did. As far as I know one person who sold 1.1 million dollars in books. One guy --

MR. LeCHER: One man?

MR. KELLEY: -- in Europe, and he got, I believe it was, five percent, which is fifty grand in commission.

MR. LeCHER: Was it a library?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. It was a whole bunch of books. He was this gentleman in, I think it was, Lucerne, Switzerland was starting a chain of missions there. And he bought in a lump sum. He had old, European family money. Walter Hegetschweiler. No one on earth will ever --

MR. LeCHER: Walter Hegetschweiler?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. I can spell it if you want me to.

MR. LeCHER: Spell it, please.

MR. KELLEY: I think I'm the one person at Flag that ever could. H-e-g-e-t-s-c-h-w-e-i-l-e-r.

MRS. GARVEY: Good for you.

MR. LeCHER: All right. I know we're getting down to the end, ladies and gentlemen, but let's just be nice and act, like good gentlemen and gentleladies. We don't want to make this a farce.


MR. LeCHER: This is serious. I know you're a good, entertaining witness, but this is not a farce; it is serious. And we don't want to be criticized for ridiculing another man's or woman's organization.

MR. KELLEY: One thing I was told to mention was that was the bonus -- some people were paid bonuses in paper --

MR. LeCHER: Like script?

MR. KELLEY: No, their account would be credited.

MRS. GARVEY: Toward taking another course?

MR. KELLEY: Right. And on this particular occasion, I believe that was made in cash, or a check given. He since -- the gentleman that sold the course I mean, those books to Mr. Hegetschweiler bought his auditing at that time. And a staff member doesn't ever have to buy auditing; he never has to. But rather than wait around to get his NED for OTs auditing, he just paid for it, which was, I thought it was kind of foolish myself, because a man that does that amount of business for the Church eventually will be awarded that auditing for nothing. But he turned right around and spent forty thousand of it for his auditing.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple. Mr. Kelley, do you mind if I call you Casey?


MR. BERFIELD: I'm still not sure: Why or how did you ever get involved in Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: I was going to Florida State University in Fort Lauderdale.

MR. BERFIELD: Did you take any of their auditing courses or anything like that?

MR. KELLEY: I never paid for one, other than after I came on staff.

MR. BERFIELD: Did -- in taking those, have you reviewed any of those books since you've taken a course?

MR. KELLEY: No, I haven't. I haven't been too enthused about hearing anything about Scientology since I got out in October of last year.

MR. BERFIELD: You're no longer associated with them?


MR. BERFIELD: Why did you leave Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: I left -- the original reason I left Clearwater was to go on vacation. And when I got on vacation, my brother had contacted some people about Scientology and had done his research on what was actually going on. And he just kind of verbally -- he asked me what I was doing in a rather point-blank way.

You know, "Why are you working these hours for this amount of money?" And "Where is this money going?" And I said, "Jesus, I don't know." Then, I started thinking about it on my own. And that's how I got out. I just never returned from my vacation.

MR. BERFIELD: The job that you were in, was that more of a financial management-type job?

MR. KELLEY: The job is actually located in the executive division. I spent a lot of time in treasury. I saw every invoice that came in, all of them: John Travolta -- I don't want to name celebrity names, but I saw everybody's invoice.

MR. BERFIELD: Did everybody --

MR. KELLEY: I had them on my list.

MR. BERFIELD: Did everyone pay cash for their services or --

MR. KELLEY: Check; mostly check.

MR. BERFIELD: Was there any promissory notes or anything?

MR. KELLEY: No, you couldn't do that.

MR. BERFIELD: You couldn't do that.


MR. BERFIELD: Did you -

MR. KELLEY: You had to have the money on hand.

MR. BERFIELD: So, you had no collection problems as far as getting the money?

MR. KELLEY: The only time you'd have collection problems would be, say, a person bought some auditing. He did the auditing, but he was in the middle of an auditing action and he had -- he needed more, or else there could be dire consequences for the individual. Say, there was a possibility that he might get killed, whatever. Then, he would go in debt to the organization and get either review auditing or whatever it was that was needed. And that sometimes got pretty expensive.

That's the only time a public person would owe the organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know how they collect their money?

MR. KELLEY: I certainly do. I used to work in the office where it was done. They would call them or write them letters or basically, a lot the same way that they get regular money, except this was a little -- this seemed to be a little nastier.


MR. KELLEY: Well, you know, "You owe us money."

MR. BERFIELD: Did you get that from mean, there was no force or coercion to collect this money?

MR. KELLEY: None that I ever saw. They sometimes I got -- none that I ever saw.

MR. BERFIELD: Did you ever see any kind of a working budget? In other words, when you took in four hundred thousand dollars a week, it cost a hundred and fifty or two hundred thousand dollars a week to run the hotel?

MR. KELLEY: A working budget? Every week, the financial planning for that week would be posted.

MR. BERFIELD: What would that be?

MR. KELLEY: That would be, like, how much money was spent for phone calls -- well, each division, how much money they had allocated to them. For example, our office had twenty-five hundred bucks on phone calls. That's how much we were allocated; we spent more than that.

MR. BERFIELD: But did you see this for the whole operation?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. But I can't remember too much because -- I'm sorry, because it was just --

MR. BERFIELD: No, no, no, no.

MR. KELLEY: -- on a piece of paper, and if it didn't concern my office, I really wasn't paying that much attention.

MR. BERFIELD: So, in other words, on a poorer week when they got four hundred thousand dollars, you don't know whether their operating budget was a hundred and twenty thousand or --

MR. KELLEY: No. I know that on a poorer week it was tougher to get something that -- it was like getting blood from a turnip to get money out of the Financial Planning Committee. I know that.

For example, I used my boss's typewriter, which was his own personal electric typewriter. And I tried to get the organization to rent one for him so I could give him back his. And no one at Requests would give me a typewriter, you know, which seemed to me to be a bit odd, you know, because our office was doing an outstanding job. And yet, we still couldn't get the typewriter.

You know, it's hard to get money from the organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Question: When you were mentioning these living expenses -- living conditions similar to the military, did you ever have any kind of inspection or --

MR. KELLEY: Oh, yeah.

MR. BERFIELD: -- from the Fire Marshall? What happened in a situation like that?

MR. KELLEY: Well, it's like Lori said. I mean, you would know they were coming and there'd be a giant press to clean the place up a lot. You know, you made sure all the dormitories were all clean and neat and that sort of thing.

MR. BERFIELD: But do you know if they moved beds or anything?

MR. KELLEY: The only thing I can remember on that sort of deal was when a young man by the -- which doesn't really have to do with a fire inspection; it has to do with moving a person. I remember when Charles Fletcher had trouble with his parents here in Clearwater because they were -- that was a big deal here in the city. I remember the mayor was in on it or somebody; it was a big deal. His parents came down and tried to get him out of here. Well, he was living in the dorm at the time down there with forty-seven other people. They moved him up to a regular public room for the day. They put him and one other person in a regular room. They moved in some books and made it lived in so, when his parents came to visit him, he had a regular room with just one other person when, in actual fact, he lived downstairs with the rest of us.

MR. BERFIELD: Just a question out of curiosity here: To this day, you do not know whether you're divorced or --

MR. KELLEY: I consider myself to be. I mean, the marriage certificate no longer -- it didn't get sent in.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know that for a fact?

MR. KELLEY: Yes, because I chopped it up with a pair of scissors.

MR. BERFIELD: What happens on these other marriages that are performed? Do they go through the legal steps of getting divorces if there are divorces?

MR. KELLEY: If they get -- as far as I know, they do. See, that's in -- that's bad news, and you don't talk about bad news between yourselves. You know, I had several friends who got divorced last year and that was bad news; we didn't discuss it.

MR. BERFIELD: Just one final question: It's still unclear in my mind what would motivate you to come down on liberty and talk to us?

MR. KELLEY: A chance to get back.

MR. BERFIELD: Back at --

MR. KELLEY: Back at Scientology because I feel like I got the short end of the stick for those three years, and I feel I have something to say. I had some dealings. I worked there for three years. I felt that I had some testimony that would be of value to the Commission.

MR. BERFIELD: Well, do you feel it's a more vindictive one than an informative one?

MR. KELLEY: No. It's because I had -- you know, I had gotten terribly emotional about the whole thing. Don't feel like I'm going to go bomb -- you know, I'm not going to go calling bomb threats or anything like that. I don't feel vindictive in an emotional way. But Scientology is something that I feel most people don't know about what really goes on up here at the Fort Harrison. And I knew.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you think that should be of deep concern to this Commission and the people in --

MR. KELLEY: Definitely.


MR. KELLEY: Because they're doing things that I feel are unethical.

MR. BERFIELD: For example?

MR. KELLEY: Twenty bucks a week for seventy hours seems a bit one-sided to me; things of that nature. If you -- I don't know about these people that are in the Rehabilitation Project Force; things of that nature. These things should be found out about. I don't think the people of Clearwater really know what's going on. They put up a good front over there.

MR. BERFIELD: Can you tell us any other things that you think we should know about or in your opinion we should be informed about? Do you think health is a factor over there?

MR. KELLEY: I know that I got had blood poisoning a couple of times. But I don't know if that's still a problem now or not.

MR. BUFIELD: What about the safety of the people?

MR. KELLEY: Food poisoning, I'm sorry; food poisoning. Pardon?

MR. BERFIELD: The safety of the people?

MR. KELLEY: I don't think they're in any great physical danger.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you think you could have evacuated that room with fifty some fellows if they had a fire?

MR. KELLEY: Yes, because we did it a couple of times. Two nights in a row we had fire alarms that went off.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you think, in your own mind, that there's been any -- in the distribution of literature here in Clearwater -- fraud or is there misrepresentation to the people of Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: I have -- I'm not that familiar with what information has been dispensed to the people of Clearwater.

MR. BERFIELD: In the form of books and literature?

MR. KELLEY: I always felt the literature was pretty wishy-washy, that it was just on the nature to appease the citizens of Clearwater. See, Scientology -- this operation does not -- they really don't want anything to do with citizens of Clearwater. Their the people they're concerned with are the people that are already Scientologists. That's what they're interested in. If this were a regular Scientology organization, they'd be trying to get the people of Clearwater into that building. As it is, they'd just as soon Clearwater left them alone. That's always the feeling we had when I was there. But if you must come in, we'll be cordial and show you the chapel and that sort of thing. But their main interest lies in public, in people that are already Scientologists.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you think health codes over there have been violated?

MR. KELLEY: I am not that familiar with health codes. I know when I was in the men's dormitory down there that
was probably a violation, but that is no longer in existence, I would guess.

MR. BERFIELD: You made a general statement that the people of Clearwater should know about it. If you had some announcement, what would you tell the people of Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: if I was a citizen of Clearwater, I wouldn't want them in my town because it's a it's a dangerous organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Dangerous in what respect?

MR. KELLEY: Dangerous to the minds of young people.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you think they could have an effect on my children since they live here or just the ones coming in?

Mg. KELLEY: It's -- I would -- I really don't feel like they pose that much of a threat to the City of Clearwater, because they really don't want to have any thing to do with Clearwater. They really don't want to deal with the people in Clearwater.

But if it's looked upon favorably here, maybe it will be looked upon favorably elsewhere, see. And I don't think it should be looked upon favorably in the slightest at all, whether it be Clearwater or anywhere.

MR. BERFIELD: But if I understand your statement, you would just alert the people of Clearwater that they are a dangerous organization?

MR. KELLEY: In my opinion, they are; in my opinion, they are.

MR. BERFIELD: You would -- you would or would not recommend anybody going into Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: I would recommend against it with all my heart and soul going into it and getting out of it. That's another thing that I would like known. The average Scientologist doesn't know about some of these clandestine -- they don't know about any of these clandestine activities that -- I don't know if anyone's testified on it or not. But some of the harassment of Mr. -- former Mayor Cazares or the Saint-Petersburg Times writers.

They hear about that stuff, some of these harassments, wire taps, and things, and these the Scientologist doesn't believe it. They figure that's just noise to sell papers, when, in fact, it's actually occurring. The average Scientologist you see walking on the street probably isn't a bad person, but he's misled by the organization, by the policies of the organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Now, you say they're misled. Do you know this to be a fact?


MR. BERFIELD: Can you give us a for instance?

MR. KELLEY: The one for instance I give is an incident that happened to me in my home after I got out of Scientology, an incident of harassment, which I don't know if it's -- that's a -

MR. LeCHER: That's very pertinent.

MR. KELLEY: When I was on leave well, before I went on leave in Portland or Vancouver, Washington where my brother lives, my brother called everyone from the FBI, to the CIA on down to find out about Scientology. He kind of knew that it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, but he didn't really know what to do about it until he called a lot of people -- a bunch of people until he got in contact with someone who knew about religious cults or cult activities. So when I came home, he had a stack -- you know, he had a stack of papers, some affidavits and things like that. And he proceeded to ask me a few questions to which I didn't have logical answers for. So, I got out, and I decided to stay home.

But shortly the day after that, Bob and I we went to a business meeting in Seattle and left his wife at home alone. When we came back, we found her sitting in the closet with a gun in her hand terrified.

What had happened was is the day after Halloween, someone came to the door wearing a Halloween mask, knocked on the door, she opened -- it was a screen door. She opened up the door, they asked if Casey Kelley was there. She said, "No," and started to close the door on the people. They came into the house, harassed her, exposed themselves, threatened her, saying, "You better leave Casey alone or it can get worse. Don't call the cops." That sort of thing. No one else in that area knew I was there. I had no friends because I hadn't been there for three years. I had no friends in that area that would do something, you know, off the wall like that. My family didn't even know I was there, except -- with the exception of my brother. He was the only one who knew I was at his home.

That made it very real to me. That made it kind of hit home. The average Scientologist does not know about that sort of thing taking place. How can a religion do that if it's a bonafide religion?

MR. LeCHER: We don't want to --

MR. KELLEY: That's another --

MR. LeCHER: that's under religious beliefs and --

MR.KELLEY: That's right; I'm sorry.

MR. LeCHER: -- we don't want to hear about that.

MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, I could go on all evening --

MR. LeCHER: So could I, but I think we'd better switch around. We do have a meeting -- another meeting to attend -- it's twenty-five to five -- at five, and I have to go back to my colleagues to my right to see if they have something they would like to add.

MRS. GARVEY: I don't have a lot of questions to ask, but I can start in the morning.

MR. LeCHER: Is there anything you'd like to say in conclusion, sir?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Can you stay over, Mr. Kelley?

MA. KELLEY: Yes, I can.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Why don't you stay over then, and speak with Mr. Flynn. There may be something we want to ask you again. At this stage, ladies and gentlemen, this particular meeting is adjourned, and we'll reconvene with the regularly scheduled City Commission meeting at five o'clock.

(whereupon, the hearing was adjourned until 9:00 a.m. on Friday, May 7, 1982.)


I, Karen E. Rizman, a certified court reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify that the foregoing hearing transcript of the City of Clearwater Commission Hearings Re: The Church of Scientology, pages 4 through 273, is a true and accurate transcription of my dictated tape recordings of the proceedings taken at the Clearwater City Hall, Clearwater Florida, on Thursday, May 6, 1982.

Karen E. Rizman
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Part 1 of 12

Day 3: May 7, 1982


Clearwater, Florida May 7, 1982 Morning Session

MR. LeCHER: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, this meeting will come to order. Let's bow our heads for the prayer. We pray for the understanding that we do not give too much attention to a single happening but rather understand its place in the overall picture of good, which is God's perfect plan. Our understanding heart enables us to keep every perspective so that we move through each day on an even keel; we are free from any tendency to resist the events of the day or to feel that things are not working out. Our understanding lets us see each happening in its relation to the whole.

We pray, to understand truth from fiction and the wisdom to know the difference. Amen.

Will you please rise for the Pledge led by Chief Klein.

(Whereupon, the Pledge of Allegiance was recited.)

MR. LeCHER: Welcome back to the third consecutive day of the City Commission Hearings with respect to Scientology. Again, we're here to -- not to question the faith of the Church, but external activities, business activities, with respect to the City of Clearwater.

We have been listening for the past few days, and. yesterday we left with a man named Casey Kelley, who has been previously sworn in.

Mr. Flynn, is that -- should we go through the ceremony of swearing in again, or is he still sworn in?

MR. FLYNN: That won't be necessary, he's still under oath.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

CASEY KELLEY, a witness herein, having been previously sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Kelley, you were speaking yesterday from the general outline.

Is there anything else you'd like to add before we ask you some more questions?

MR. KELLEY: No. I'm ready to answer questions.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

I will start off with a few and, then, go to my right.

You testified yesterday that on a good week you'd take in a million dollars in Clearwater and an average week would be four to five hundred thousand dollars and, on an exceptional week, 2.3 million dollars in the City of Clearwater, which is the largest of any of the cities in the country, possibly the world.

All that money that was taken in — and I don't want you to name names but — are there many Church-related businesses in the City of Clearwater? And to your knowledge, has any of that money been siphoned off or skimmed to support businesses within the City of Clearwater?

I don't want you to name businesses because of the possible blackmail —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

I won't name any because I don't know of any.

If that is done, it's done — it was done without my knowledge.

MR. LeCHER: You did say, though, yesterday that you looked at every invoice coming in?


MR. LeCHER: But —

MR. KELLEY: But no invoices going out.

MR. LeCHER: No invoices going out, just —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

I didn't see the checks going out.

MR. LeCHER: Did the Church prefer to do business with their own?

MR. KELLEY: When possible. To my knowledge, there weren't that many Scientologist businesses in the area.

MR. LeCHER: And when were you last there?

MR. KELLEY: October of 1980.

MR. LeCHER: When I see these young people walking up and down the street, can they all afford these expensive courses or are they indentured for various years to pay for those courses?

MR. KELLEY: The majority of them are indentured or on course now. A lot of the students that you see going back and forth between Clearwater buildings and the Fort Harrison are outer organization students or students that are staff members at another org. in another city, and they're just here because here we've got the best training. It's world renowned in the Scientology world that the best training is done here.

So, consequently, these outer orgs. send their students here just to be Flag trained. That's like a — it's real important. It's a real honor and status, as it were.

MR. LeCHER: Well, if you were young and you don't have family money and you only make $8.60 a week to $20.00 a week, how in the world are you or anyone else able eventually or ultimately to pay all that money back?

MR. KELLEY: You only — a staff member doesn't have to as long as he stays on staff.

MR. LeCHER: But didn't another witness —

MR. KELLEY: The courses are free if you work for the organization.

MR. LeCHER: Oh, they're free if you work for the organization?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

You still have to sign the waivers and bonds and a promissory notes. For example —

MR. LeCHER: If you leave, is that money a debt that you owe to them ?

MR. KELLEY: Sort of. It's made to think like you have to pay it back, but, in fact it's not a legal debt. If I wanted to get back in Scientology now, I'd have to pay back for all the courses that I've already done. And that is a lot of money; that's thousands for the courses that I've already done.

MR. LeCHER: Can you estimate how much it would cost for you to buy your way back into the organization?

MR. KELLEY: I have no idea what my freeloader's debt is. It's probably thirty to forty thousand dollars easy.

MR. LeCHER: Thirty to forty thousand?


MR. LeCHER: And you were only in the Church of Scientology for three years?

MR. KELLEY: Three years.

MR. LeCHER: That's an average of ten thousand a year.

MR. KELLEY: That's cheap.

MR. LeCHER: That's cheap?

MR. KELLEY: Relatively.

There's people here that spend like seventy thousand dollars a year or more.

MR. LeCHER: Seventy thousand a year or more?

MR. KELLEY: Or more.

MR. LeCHER: Do you know — would you like to be specific as to any names or —

MR. KELLEY: Well, I don't know if that's a fair thing to do for a public person. There's a —

MR. LeCHER: I don't —

MR. KELLEY: — a man here from Europe who's been here — for the three years I was here, he was only gone for about two weeks the whole time —

MR. LeCHER: Well, if that's the way they worship and that's what they want to do —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: — I wouldn't want to —

MR. KELLEY: But there are people that spend seventy-eighty thousand dollars a year.

MR. FLYNN: One moment, Mayor.

MR. KELLEY: I was — one of the things was I was working for seventy, eighty hours a week, but I still had to sign the promissory notes to pay back in case I didn't complete my contract. My contract was a billion years.

MR. LeCHER: A billion years?


All staff members that are staff here have signed a billion-year contract.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Excuse me.

Mr. Kelley, when you're referring to staff, is that the Sea Org. or —

MR. KELLEY: Sea Org. staff, yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that is a one billion-year contract?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Would a well-known personality, such as John Travolta, would he pay more than the average person or — is it the ability to pay as to how much you pay for courses?

MR. KELLEY: No. It's — it's a flat rate.

MR. LeCHER: So —

MR. KELLEY: The problem is the rate was pretty high. They — those people pay the same price as anyone else.

MR. LeCHER: You would pay as much as a college student?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Can you walk me through a typical day in the Church of Scientology —

MR. KELLEY: It's a —

MR. LeCHER: — from your point of view?

MR. KELLEY: Right, from my experience in Clearwater.

Boy, if I can remember. You get up at eight, seven-thirty or eight — I'm trying to remember now. You eat breakfast, be on post by nine, nine-fifteen, work until lunch, had an hour for lunch, then, work from twelve-forty-five in the afternoon until five-forty-five at night — in the afternoon, an hour for dinner, and then from six-forty-five until ten-thirty at night. Every day.

You got a day off every other week if your statistics were up.

MR. LeCHER: If your stats were down, what happened to you?

MR. KELLEY: You didn't get — you didn't have a liberty; you kept working.

MR. LeCHER: Explain to me the stats again for the benefit of the new people watching.

MR. KELLEY: Well — my stats?

MR. LeCHER: No, no, what stats mean.

MR. KELLEY: Statistics — you're graded by your statistics. Supposedly, in the organization, you're not graded by personality or who you know but by your statistics; that's what counts. It's statistics.

Whatever it is that you do, say — say, you're the Director of Income, your statistics would be how much money you brought in. And if that graph is going up, then, you would get a liberty. If this graph was going down, you'd stay on post that day.

There was one period when I went three months without a liberty, not a day off.

MR. LeCHER: Three months?

MR. KELLEY: Maybe four, at least three.

MR. LeCHER: Most of this money that came in, was it coming in from local people or from outside people?

MR. KELLEY: It was coming from outside. Much of it was coming in from Europe.

MR. LeCHER: Much of it from Europe?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

I'd like to now give my colleagues a chance. And I'll start with Mrs. Garvey to my immediate right — far right.

MRS. GARVEY: Mr. Kelley, I'd like to ask you to expand a little bit on what were your stats? How were you graded?

MR. KELLEY: I had a really difficult major statistic, because what I did was find information. I spent a lot of time in treasury. I didn't do one specific thing every day. So, I roamed around and did what was needed, whether it be photocopying three thousand copies of something or whatever it was. So, I just kept kind of a point value system.

MRS. GARVEY: For every job you did —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: — you got —

MR. KELLEY: This was worth so many points — it was something I worked out between my superior and myself, this point value system that we had worked out.

MRS. GARVEY: What did you do from six-thirty to ten o'clock at night? The same —

MR. KELLEY: Oh, no. It was varied — for my job, it varied daily.

I'd make a list of who — I'd make an arrivals list, who arrived, and I made a list of who was there. And I distributed — I'd type that up in four copies and run that around the org. so various people around the organization knew who had arrived the day before. That took up most of my morning.

Then, in the afternoon, I would go get some photocopies or you get on the phone and you find phone numbers for people to make a phone list. It would vary daily.

MRS. GARVEY: How many people would you record in, roughly?

MR. KELLEY: I can remember, on weekly — new ones? It's hard to remember because, after a while, I didn't count people who had made a payment of five — fifty dollars or less; I didn't add them onto my list. There was a bunch of those.

MRS. GARVEY: What would be, say, a typical course price for someone —

MR. KELLEY: A thousand dollars.

MRS. GARVEY: A thousand dollars is typical?

MR. KELLEY: Fifteen hundred.

There were courses, little courses, that were much cheaper. I think the cheapest course they had when I was there was $300.00, three hundred and fifty.

MRS. GARVEY: Would you explain to the public what a freeloader's debt is?

MR. KELLEY: A staff member — for example, each course that I did or each auditing action that I did, I signed a promissory note: "If I do not complete my contract, I will pay back X amount of dollars for this course." Well, that stuff's all kept in a file somewhere and, then, when you leave — normally, when a person leaves — doesn't complete his contract — what you're supposed to do is go through this rout out.

You're supposed to go see like ten different people. And one of the things they do is they figure up your freeloader's debt. They take all the courses and the auditing that you've gotten — received while you're a staff member and say, "You owe us this amount." And you're expected to pay it back. But it's — it's made to — it's made to seem like a legal debt. There's very few people that — in my experience — ever paid their freeloader debt off and came back on staff and became a Scientologist in good standing.

MRS. GARVEY: Do most people know that it's not a legal debt?

MR. KELLEY: I think so, because I didn't see that many payments come in.

MRS. GARVEY: But if they had left the organization, they obviously wouldn't want to pay to get back in?

MR. KELLEY: Not necessarily.

MRS. GARVEY: But you did see some payments come in?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

I know two people in North Dakota, a man and his wife, and their combined freeloader debt was $300,000.00.

MRS. GARVEY: Were — did they —

MR. KELLEY: And they were paying it back fifteen dollars a week.

MR. LeCHER: Until it's paid off?


MR. LeCHER: Go ahead.

MRS. GARVEY: Would you explain to me, please, what Flag Base is?

MR. KELLEY: When Scientology was headquartered on the ship, when the Sea Org. was on the ship — I don't recall — it was the Flag Ship. Scientology at that time had six or seven ships, I believe. It was the Flag Ship and the little fleet.

When they came on land, first in Orlando, they became known as the Flag Land Base. It's just a — it's just another way of saying religious retreat, I guess.

MRS. GARVEY: Is it the central base of the organization?


MRS. GARVEY: So, all orders would come out of the Flag Base?

MR. KELLEY: Or else from wherever Ron was — where LRH was giving orders; it would come from him.

Most of the orders to the organizations come from here to the West coast organization.

MRS. GARVEY: So, if Ron Hubbard was sending an order, it would come through Clearwater Flag Base?

MR. KELLEY: Right, usually.

Most of —

MRS. GARVEY: So, whatever happens comes through here?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: What got you into the organization in the first place? I know we've heard some of the past people talk about the leader's — Mr. Hubbard's background was so impressive that they just felt that he had so much to offer that they just had to go.

What got you into it?

MR. KELLEY: That was a minor part of it for me. I never really did buy this L. Ron Hubbard privilege stuff. I never — I wasn't a very good Scientologist because I always had wandering doubts about Ron. You know, "If he's so magnanimous, why doesn't he show up and say ‘Hello' once in a while?"

Getting back to the question: I was going to college at the time when I got in. And it — I was idealistic, also, you know, I was eighteen. And I was on my own for the first time. Someone said, "Hey, let's go to this open house, you know, they have a seminar." And I said, "Okay." We went to the seminar and I thought it wasn't too bad. They had a course you could do, so I did the course.

And it was a communications course. It was the basic course that almost everyone does. And from there I was hooked, but that gets us into another realm.

MRS. GARVEY: What did you get? I mean, did you get any promises? Did you feel that they were promising you something that was going to happen?

MR. KELLEY: I felt like things were going to be a lot easier in life, you know. I felt like, "Boy, Scientology is really good, for the good of the planet. It's really going to help mankind."

You know, I joined the Sea Org. to help stamp out insanity, criminal — war and crime; insanity, war, and crime. I thought that I was doing something great for the human race.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you promised anything when you joined the Sea Org.? What did they tell you was going to happen to you when you joined the Sea Org., other than to stamp out war and crime and insanity?

MR. KELLEY: That's a little vague, isn't it?

I'm trying to remember what my recruiter did tell me.

MRS. GARVEY: About — what about living conditions: where you were going to be, what your work schedule was going to be, what your job was?

MR. KELLEY: I really don't think — I don't recall them ever discussing that sort of thing because everyone — even if they would have told me, I wouldn't have cared, you know, because my purpose was so — that's what I wanted to do so bad. "I'm going to Flag, wow."

Needless to say, I was a bit disenchanted when I saw the men's dorm.

MRS. GARVEY: What did you expect to find at Flag?

MR. KELLEY: I expected to find maybe four people to a room —

MRS. GARVEY: A college dorm-type situation?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: Do you know if — you know, one of the things that's promised — or there are three things.

Auditing, did you do auditing?

MR. KELLEY: I audited and was audited.

MRS. GARVEY: And were you told that the auditing information was going to be confidential?


MRS. GARVEY: Would you, in fact, have gone through auditing if you had known it would be used against you at a later time?


MRS. GARVEY: Were you promised a refund if you —

MR. KELLEY: I never paid for auditing.

MRS. GARVEY: You were staff; that's right.

MR. KELLEY: I paid for a course.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you — oh — was there any — are you aware of any illnesses or mistreatment of children or lack of treatment for children? Were you ever in that part of the building?

MR. KELLEY: My wife was. Before the — whoever is in charge of that in the city, the Board of Health, who ever deals with that —

MRS. GARVEY: You don't know who was in charge of that when your wife was --

MR. KELLEY: No, I'm trying to remember who in the city was in charge of that: the Board of Health or whoever it is that looks into nursery situations.

Before they looked into it, I know there was a condition of overcrowding in the nursery. They moved the children out to the Quality Inn. And since then, my knowledge was fairly -- it was up to standards.

But one thing that they did do as a policy action, which I feel should be known, is they put, what I call, a baby ban. They allowed no more staff members --

MRS. GARVEY: Baby what?


MRS. GARVEY: Baby ban?

MR. KELLEY: That's what -- that's my own term.


MR. KELLEY: Don't quote them, quote me. They allowed no more staff members to have children. It was forbidden because there was no more room in the nursery. If you had a child -- if your wife got pregnant, you would have had to leave; you would have had to go to Los Angeles or Saint Hill or something.

MRS. GARVEY: You'd still be in the Sea Organization

MR. KELLEY: Right. You'd still be in the Sea Org. —

MRS. GARVEY: — but you'd have to go someplace else?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: Why is that?

MR. KELLEY: Because there was no room in the nursery for any additional children.

MRS. GARVEY: But there were in the other areas?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever keep track of the news in the area? You know, did you read the newspaper or listen to radio or television?

MR. KELLEY: We were kind of discouraged from reading the Clearwater Sun for obvious reasons.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you keep track of —

MR. KELLEY: We really didn't care. It wasn't important to us. It wasn't.


What were you told about the Guardian Office?

MR. KELLEY: That they made the environment safe for Scientology to expand. That's their purpose, so we were told.

We -- the average Scientologist doesn't know about the Guardian's Office clandestine activities. And we thought they were a real good bunch of people. We thought they had a lot of courage to go out there and fight these, you know -- Cazares and all these guys. We thought that was a real tough job and they were doing real good at it. They were looked up to.

MRS. GARVEY: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Before Mr. Hatchett, I just want to say that we're going to try and get live witnesses through today, and we're running out of time. And so, I certainly don't want to stifle any of the Commissioners or the witnesses or staff, but let's try and move it. Mr. Hatchett.

MR. HATCHETT: I will, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Kelley, while you were here in Clearwater at Flag, were you aware or did you ever secure a legitimate ID from the IRS?

MR. KELLEY: Say that again?

MR. HATCHETT: Did you ever get an IRS ID?


MR. HATCHETT: Internal Revenue.

MR. KELLEY: What about them?

MR. HATCHETT: That's your ID number, the tax exempt number. Did you have any knowledge —

MR. KELLEY: I had none.


MR. KELLEY: I never filed a tax return when I was here.

MR. HATCHETT: I beg your pardon?

MR. KELLEY: I never filed a tax form when I lived here.

MR. HATCHETT: I'm talking about the organization itself.

MR. KELLEY: I have no idea what their tax —

MR. HATCHETT: Were you aware — did they ever have an IRS —

MR. KELLEY: I knew they were tax exempt, but I had no idea what the specifics were.

MR. HATCHETT: Well, those thirty to forty bank accounts in the Pinellas County area, were they actually in the Church of Scientology's name?

MR. KELLEY: To my knowledge, they were. They weren't all in the Pinellas County area. They had banks in Tampa, around the area.

MR. HATCHETT: Who normally made those deposits by name?

MR. KELLEY: He was the Finance Banking Officer; that was the post title. I don't remember -- do you want a specific name?

MR. HATCHETT: I want a specific name.

MR. KELLEY: I'm trying to remember. Chris Smith.

MR. HATCHETT: S-m-i-t-h?

MR. KELLEY: Yes, Smith.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. That's all the questions I have.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have anything you'd like to ask?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir.

Mr. Kelley, by the way, I know you were nervous yesterday and I know you're nervous this morning.

MR. KELLEY: I'm not nervous now.

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- and I know that it's kind of a trauma to be going through this. And everybody here really appreciates your coming in and talking to us. I wanted to, if you don't mind -- to -- if you could go into a little bit more detail about the regging --

MR. KELLEY: Regging?

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- regging, in terms of what the person did, specifically, and what the result of these recruiters were when they came back and so forth?

MR. KELLEY: The results were that they made a lot of money.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir.

But who actually did the regging and what did they do?

MR. KELLEY: They — what they would do is they would — say, you were on the eastern United States tour, they'd have an advance man say, your next stop was Boston. The advance man would go to Boston, book the hall, you know —

MR. SHOEMAKER: This is for information —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

He'd make a reservation for a place to hold the event, you know, it's for thousands of people. He would get a place in the local org. for the registrars to work, a phone, and the local org. would provide assistance.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, regging relates to the registrar?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Which is the person that takes in money —

MR. KELLEY: Takes in money.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — and does the recruiting for —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- the courses?

MR. KELLEY: Well, right. There's a difference between recruiting and regging.

Recruiting, normally, is for getting staff members.


MR. KELLEY: Regging, normally, means getting money.

There were recruiting tours out, too.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But the regging is related to the public people.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- that is, the people who come in and pay for the courses?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

The registrars would go out. They would be on the phones, you know, they'd have contacts they'd have people call. They'd get people to the event.

The day of the event, someone from Flag would fly out. Usually, it was a Class 12 auditor, someone that usually, a technical person. And they would give a briefing on what Ron is doing now and news at Flag, technical breakthroughs, and that sort of thing. It's all done very exciting, a real big show.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Please excuse me, but we're not all knowledgeable with the words.

A Class 12 auditor —


MR. SHOEMAKER: — is that somebody —

MR. KELLEY: That's the highest stage you can get.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's the highest level you can get?

MR. KELLEY: The only place — a regular organization is a Class 4 organization, and you can only train up to Class 4 auditors. And there's, I think, three organizations where they are Class 9 organizations. And Flag is a Class 12 organization. They're the only place that has a Class 12 auditor.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that relates directly to the level of training —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — that a person —

MR. KELLEY: That's a highly, highly trained —

MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: That's done here, right. The only place you can do it is here.

Anyway, they send one of these people out — someone of that nature — and they would do the speaking. They would do the actual speaking at the event, you know, do their little show.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What would --

MR. KELLEY: Well --

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- what kinds of things would they talk about?

MR. KELLEY: -- maybe they'd have a slide presentation, possibly. They used to have one of the Flag Land Base. They'd use really professional photos of, you know, Priscilla Presley by the pool or, you know, things like that. They made it real enticing, you know.

And they would talk about what Ron was doing now. "He's researching this or he's doing that," you know. And then, they'd talk about the new technical breakthroughs: whatever was news and was the --

MR. SHOEMAKER: What kinds of claims would be made?

MR. KELLEY: Usually, they made it sound like Ron was actually doing something.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But the results that people would --

MR. KELLEY: People would get enthused. They'd stomp and cheer and applaud and -- people would get real enthused. Then, they'd say, "See the registrar about going to Flag." And there'd be these people sitting there with the invoice machine and a calculator.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During this process, did types of — were they promising things to people in terms of — regarding physical or mental corrections or saving of the world or what?

MR. KELLEY: Not so much that at a regular — at a regular event. Those were done more at recruiting events when they try to get staff members. They'd talk about helping planet Earth.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Were they — they would talk about helping the planet and so forth?


MR. SHOEMAKER: What type of image were they placing forward regarding Mr. Hubbard?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, like he was the greatest thing since — that he was just flawless. And that's a — every time we'd have a staff meeting here at Flag, at the end of it, we'd applaud Ron. You'd always stand up and give Ron a standing ovation because he's done this great thing for you.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you ever see or meet Mr. Hubbard at —



MR. KELLEY: That's one of the things that disgusted me. "If he's so great, why can't he come by and" -- you know. We made 2.3 million dollars one week. "Why doesn't he show up and say, 'Hello, I you know, Congratulations.'"

MR. SHOEMAKER: After going through the this public presentation and so forth -- the people that were interested in the course -- what happened next to them?

MR. KELLEY: They were -- if they were interested and they had cash on hand or a checkbook, they would write a check for a service.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And where did that check go?

MR. KELLEY: It went from there to -- like, if it was in Boston, it would go to the Eastern United States Liaison Office, then, it would dome here.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Then, it would come to Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: Right. Then, it would come across my desk.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And you had said before that, I believe, there were three of these types of tours that were done

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- around the world?

MR. KELLEY: Right.


And that came directly back to Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

Did — no. The Europe one, the money doesn't go directly back, and I don't know where that money goes. No one — that's a highly kept secret.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, it is?

MR. KELLEY: That's highly kept.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But yet, you did indicate there were a lot of Europeans that came to —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: All we get is a little piece of typed paper. They're called "Central Files Information Slips," and it's a little strip of paper that tells what the payment was, what it was for, and the person's address. It says everything on it the invoice does, but the money didn't come here. And no one knows where — there's — that's very — a highly kept secret, highly kept secret where that person is. I don't know where that is.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During your process — well, first of all, can you describe to us what a Suppressive Person is?

MR. KELLEY: Anyone that has — wants to harm Scientology, has harmed Scientology. Anyone who testifies is about as suppressive as you can get.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, you yourself would be -

MR. KELLEY: Oh, big letters --

MR. SHOEMAKER: You're a Suppressive Person?

MR. KELLEY: Big time.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that is why, because you talked about --

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: Because I've said something against it. Well, part -- first, that I blew; I left the organization uninvited
in, you know, 1980. So, there's already a piece of paper that says I'm declared a Suppressive Person and I'm not to
be spoken to. The regular Scientologist can't talk to a Suppressive Person.

MR. SHOEMAKER: They cannot?

MR. KELLEY: Cannot.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And you have referred, also, I think, to bad information, bad news, that you don't talk about it?

MR. KELLEY: Right. They call it en theta.

MR. SHOEMAKER: En theta?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

They use symbols — you just don't talk about bad news, things bad that happen.

For example, when that lady Scientologist committed suicide, you didn't talk about that stuff. That was — that was just — it wasn't positive; it didn't have a purpose.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, that would be included in any types of news stories or any type —

MR. KELLEY: Oh, right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — of events outside that were —

MR. KELLEY: Certainly.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — you wouldn't talk about, as well as personal things?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

You didn't talk about your Mom dying or you didn't talk about the Clearwater Sun, for example. I keep — I don't mean to keep picking on the Clearwater Sun.

MR. SHOEMAKER: No. I'm sure they're enjoying it.

For instance, the RPF, you wouldn't talk about if somebody, a friend of yours —


MR. SHOEMAKER: — was in it?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, no.

You wouldn't -

MR. SHOEMAKER: No one would know why they were in it?

MR. KELLEY: Right. I was never in the RPF, also. I narrowly avoided it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What did --

MR. KELLEY: One thing you never do in Scientology is you don't joke around, you don't make jokes about Scientology. So, obviously, I didn't stand a chance. You didn't -- there was a very technical -- there's a very technical bulletin on it. It's called "Jokers and Degraders," and it makes reference in there that if you do make jokes, you're probably a Suppressive Person.

You didn't -- they -- a sense of humor about themselves, they didn't have.

MR. SHOEMAKER: How about how frequently were you audited during this process?

MR. KELLEY: That's a good question. I probably received six or seven hundred hours.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Six or seven hundred hours?



MR. KELLEY: I've got nine folders.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You have nine folders?


MR. SHOEMAKER: In three years?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you compare it to, say, weekly, how frequently you went through with an auditing session?

MR. KELLEY: It's hard to say because for several months you wouldn't get — you wouldn't receive any auditing; then, you received a whole bunch in a matter of weeks.


MR. KELLEY: Usually, just the luck of the draw. Staff members didn't have a real high priority on being audited.

Obviously, the first job here in Clearwater is to deliver to the public, paying customers, and then, to us, the working class. And the higher up in the organization you are, the more likely you were to get auditing.


MR. KELLEY: This is the reward basis.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, the auditing was a reward —

MR. KELLEY: Oh, sure. Right.

You're — when you're on staff, you get — you're allowed two and-a-half hours a day to study. But I never did. The only time I ever studied was when I did my minister's course.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, you are a minister?

MR. KELLEY: I was.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You were, I'm sorry. You were a minister?

MR. KELLEY: Right, before I --

MR. SHOEMAKER: How long was that -- did that --

MR. KELLEY: The course?

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- course take?

MR. KELLEY: That's an interesting story. That's something else the Commission should know about.

When the Iranian crisis was going on, there was a directive that came on -- that came down from above Flag that said all Sea Org. members -- I don't know if it was Sea Org. members or if it was just Clearwater Sea, Org. members - had to finish their minister's course by the end of the month or go to the RPF.

MR. HATCHETT: A month?

MR. KELLEY: You had to finish the course.

And the only reason I can find.-- now this is -- the two events are rather coincidental, but there was talk of the draft coming back. So, the entire staff got through with their minister's course and got ordained.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that course took you — normally, how long did it take?

MR. KELLEY: About four or five weeks.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Four or five weeks —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — to become an ordained minister?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Are you familiar with the Fair Game Doctrine?

MR. KELLEY: I've heard of it, but they've always said they denied it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What was the general. consensus of —

MR. KELLEY: Well, the staff members, they feel it's been cancelled.

MR. SHOEMAKER: They feel it has been cancelled?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

And the other people that don't feel it's been cancelled is the GO.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What's the Fair Game Doctrine?

MR. KELLEY: Well, it's if you get out; you're fair game.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What does that mean to you?

MR. KELLEY: Basically, what it says. It's like: "If you're not with us, you're totally against us."

MR. SHOEMAKER: And what is allowed to occur to those of you that are totally against or —

MR. KELLEY: It depends on how against they are. If they're vehemently and loudly against scientology, making noise about it, then, the Fair Game Policy says that you go get them, that you discredit them, et cetera, et cetera.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What kinds of means can you use to do that?

MR. KELLEY: I don't know; I wasn't in the GO. I don't want to get into my supposition stages; I don't know.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I — if I might ask —

MR. KELLEY: Just things that I've read or things that I'm familiar with: the normal phone calls, cancelling flights, and —

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, you're speaking, basically, about —

MR. KELLEY: Just on hearsay information, just on information that I have heard from others.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir, I understand. You're not — you haven't been involved in it.

MR. KELLEY: Well, I have.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, you have?

MR. CALDERBANK: People who don't pay the money?


MR. KELLEY: No. The incident with my sister-in-law that I stated yesterday. I look — I guess I was fair game — well, my brother was fair game, actually.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But the — any type of general harassment — would you say that this was — although the average Scientologist said this, did you believe that this occurred until the —


MR. SHOEMAKER: — this incident that happened to —


MR. SHOEMAKER: — your sister-in-law?


MR. SHOEMAKER: You did not?

MR. KELLEY: No. The average Scientologist doesn't know that sort of thing goes on. He has no idea. He just thinks it's just something that the papers make up to sell papers.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Would you say that the — to the best of your knowledge, that the situations which you've described are probably still going on now or —

MR. KELLEY: I'd be very amazed if they weren't still happening. I know the men's dorm is no longer in effect. They don't have — they just turned that into an office.

MR. SHOEMAKER: One other question: Mr. Kelley, I noticed today coming in there's a big sign out. Initially, there was a big sign on the Fort Harrison which said that it was open to the public two p.m. on Sunday.

M. KELLEY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Now, there's a big sign that says, “Open House from nine a.m. to nine p.m. today,” which, I guess, is a plug that I just gave.

Would you expect this to be a normal type of a response, based upon some type of a public inquiry being made into the Church or —


That's what we did when Mr. Tenney was leading his pomp against Scientologists. When he started making a lot of noise, then, they opened their doors.

I used to be a security guard at the front desk at the Fort Harrison, also.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I know that there were a lot of lights on last night when we went home.

MR. KELLEY: They were probably cleaning the place up.

MRS. GARVEY: Cleaning the place up?

MR. KELLEY: Well, you know, making it really shine in the public areas.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: When you were a security guard, what did you do as a security guard?

MR. KELLEY: Sat at the front desk at the Fort Harrison and just allowed no loonies to walk in, basically.

MR. LeCHER: What if a loony walked in, what would you do and —

MR. KELLEY: Normally, help him walk out.

MR. LeCHER: Did you have a gun or billy —

MR. KELLEY: No, no. You got — there was a club if you ever used it.

You just sat there and — no, there is no guns at Fort Harrison, but there's a little — there's a nightstick there, but no one ever uses it. That I know of, there was no guns.

MR. LeCHER: There was a directive — about Fair Game, did you ever see a directive that the Fair Game Policy had been cancelled by Ron or by --

MR. KELLEY: I never saw a policy letter, no.

MR. LeCHER: That it had been cancelled?

MR. KELLEY: No, I never had.

MR. LeCHER: You testified yesterday that you were a minister and it took you five or six weeks to become a

MR. KELLEY: It took me about four weeks.

MR. LeCHER: Four weeks, all right. Were -- and you were ordained?


MR. LeCHER: By whom?

MR. KELLEY: Someone who finished the course about two weeks before I had. I can't remember her name.

MR. LeCHER: Well, what I'm getting at --

MR. KEMEY: Another Scientology minister.

MR. LeCHER: What I'm getting at is: I'm most, intrigued with your marriage because yesterday you said that you
were -- they never sent your license, back in to the Clerk's Office which confirms your marriage.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Is this standard that when a Scientologist gets married that it's not sent in because the potential for divorce is always so great?

MR. KELLEY: I honestly do not know. I think — I have an idea that a friend of mine — that's the way he did his. But I have — I have no concrete information on that.

That's the kind of thing you didn't really — until Al had done it to me, I didn't have any idea that that was even possible. And that wasn't too long before I got out of Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: As a minister, were you able to marry people?

MR. KELLEY: Certainly. I never did, because I was too nervous in front of other people.

The marriage — the Scientology marriage ceremony isn't bad; it's rather — it's a nice little ceremony, but I wouldn't have been able to do one.

MR. LeCHER: I was curious as to how many real marriages there are.

The Sea Org.: Now, what is it, how does it function, who is in charge, when were you there, and what did you find?

MR. KELLEY: The Sea Org. is the overall, more or less, fraternal organization. It stands for Sea Organization. When Scientology — when Ron was on the ship, he found that sailors made better staff members. I have personal doubt about that. He found these people that were on -- if they could handle a life at sea, they could handle life as a staff member and be more capable. So, he formed the Sea Organization, I believe it was, in 1968.

So -- and he still had the regular organizations, but the Sea Organization was a fraternal organization. They have a billion-year contract; all Sea Org. members sign a billion-year contract.

And then, you can -- there's only several places where Sea Org. members work. One of them is here -- the main one is here; there's one in Los Angeles and New York, a couple of places in Europe. And they're usually upper level management personnel or, in this case, in the Flag case, in the Flag Ship Org.

MR. LeCHER: Who is in charge?

MR. KELLEY: Ron's in charge.

MR. LeCHER: Does he have a lieutenant or a captain that's --

MR. KELLEY: Oh, sure.

MR. LeCHER: -- in charge of the Sea Org.?

MR. KELLEY: He had -- not in terms of the Sea Org.

MR. LeCHER: Who gave the --

MR. KELLEY: There's Captain Bill. There's rank in the Sea Org., also.

MR. LeCHER: Captain Bill?


There's rank. You start as swamper, you go to petty officer, you go to chief, you go to warrant officer, ensign, lieutenant, NJ — it's like in the Navy.

MR. LeCHER: What were you?

MR. KELLEY: Swamper. I never —

MR. LeCHER: Swamper?

MR. KELLEY: I never made it to petty officer, third class. I never went to study.

Part of the things — one of the things that — one of the requirements for — to be selected was you had to go to course, you had to study. And I never did. The only time I ever did was when I was doing the minister's course.

MR. LeCHER: How could a swamper or someone that — someone as young as you, be entrusted to handle so much money?

MR. KELLEY: I didn't handle it, actually; I just looked at it. No, seriously, I didn't — all I did was handle invoices. I wrote some invoices, but I had — the actual money, itself, the checks and the cash, very few people handled that, very few.

I was — I handled the invoices.

There are people that were younger than I am in positions of much greater responsibility, much greater and much younger: twelve, thirteen, you know.

MR. LeCHER: Twelve or thirteen years old?

MR. KELLEY: Right, Commodore's Messenger Organization. He's got a small army of them.

MR. LeCHER: An army of twelve- or thirteen-year olds?

MR. KELLEY: Oh — or younger, ten, maybe. Ten might be the youngest.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

Tell me about the messengers. Are they messengers or are they army?

MR. KELLEY: They're messengers. They're children that —

MR. LeCHER: Army of messengers?

MR. KELLEY: No — well, I said small army.

MR. LeCHER: Are they like pages?

MR. KELLEY: They're a — sometimes. And sometimes they're like the executives. A lot of them do executive — some of the — most of the younger ones don't have positions of vast authority, but if one of them had told me what to do, I would have said, “Yes, sir.”

MR. LeCHER: He would have —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: What is the CMO?

MR. KELLEY: Commodore's Messenger Org.

MR. LeCHER: And that's what we're talking about now?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

They're the guys with the blue lanyards.

MR. LeCHER: The blue manuals?

MR. KELLEY: Lanyards.

MR. LeCHER: Lanyards, oh. They're walking — I've seen them.

MR. KELLEY: If you see one with just blue in it, that's probably someone in the Commodore's Messenger Organization.

MR. LeCHER: Probably.

MR. KELLEY: Then, there's — the blue lanyard means Ron's personal staff.

MR. LeCHER: Ron's personal staff?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: They would handle — they're the ones that handle most of the money?


MRS. GARVEY: No, no.

MR. KELLEY: No, no, I didn't say that.

The ones that handle most of the money are the treasury personnel, the Director of Income, the Treasury Secretary. At the level I was at, you know, we're like I said, European money goes somewhere — I have no idea where it is. Who knows who handles that money?

MR. LeCHER: What is — are there many members of Ron's personal staff in Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: I would guess around a hundred.

MR. LeCHER: What is their — why does Ron need that hundred people in Clearwater? What is their main function?

MR. KELLEY: To keep an eye on the Clearwater operation.

MR. LeCHER: To keep an eye on you or me?

MR. KELLEY: No. To keep an eye on —

MR. LeCHER: On the money?

MR. KELLEY: On the money and the technical delivery and the management organization. To keep an eye on everything.

They also do what are called missions. They will come into your area and almost take it over, like if your area or your office was doing — the Commodore's Messenger Organization would come in on a mission and investigate, find out why things have gone downhill.

MR. BERFIELD: Is this like a Gestapo?

MR. KELLEY: They're not very pleasant people to deal with. That's the way I always felt about — I only had one mission in my time there in my area, and it was not a pleasant experience.

MR. LeCHER: What happens if you fall in disfavor with a CMO member?

MR. KELLEY: You'll soon find yourself in a blue tee shirt scrubbing a garage, usually. Those — those guys don't mess around. They will — I was told point blank once: “One more” —

MR. LeCHER: Threats.

Sir, I'm sorry. Will you give me your experience with the CMO.

MR. KELLEY: They're just — one thing was when I was going — when I had a CMO mission in my area, it was originally thought that I was the reason for the entire organization's downfall. The entire organization's statistics were on a downward slide, and they originally thought it was from me because I had — wasn't giving accurate information. So, I was in a lot of heat from everybody. And this was also the time of great emotional stress with my wife.

And Frank had told me that I had to make a choice. I had to tell my wife either stay or go, but he wanted me to go tell her one thing or the other right then and report back to him, because it was weighing too heavily on me; it was taking my attention away from my job.

MR. LeCHER: You mean, the CMO —

MR. KELLEY: Mr. Freedman was his name.

MRS. GARVEY: Frank Freedman?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: He said, “You either control your wife and your personal life,” like stay with your wife or not stay with your wife?

MR. KELLEY: He did that time.

MR. LeCHER: All for the good of the CMO?

MR. KELLEY: Right. Well, all for the good of the organization because it was pulling me away from my post. It was causing too much attention.

MR. LeCHER: Did anyone ever live in the garage?

MR. KELLEY: Yeah, the RPF did.


MR. KELLEY: Right, the Rehabilitation Project Force.

MR. LeCHER: What were conditions like in the garage?

MR. KELLEY: They weren't a whole lot better than they were in the men's dorm. Three-high bunks and — there wasn't much need for air conditioning, but it was — I was only in there a couple of times, and it was, you know, bare walls, concrete walls, plywood on one side, plywood walls.

MR. LeCHER: Did you personally see this?


MR. LeCHER: And you lived there for —


MR. LeCHER: — a short time?

MR. KELLEY: Yes — no, I never lived inside that; I was never in the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: But there were people that lived in a garage?

MR. KELLEY: Right.
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Part 2 of 12

MR. LeCHER: Did you live in the garage?

MR. KELLEY: No. I was never in the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: You were never in the RPF.

MR. KELLEY: Right. I never got into trouble.

MR. LeCHER: But you did see firsthand knowledge that —

MR. KELLEY: Those conditions did exist.

MR. LeCHER: — those conditions did exist?

Do you think they still do?

MR. KELLEY: I'm almost positive of it.

MR. LeCHER: What do you think: If I left this meeting on our break and went down to the Open House for Scientology, would I be treated warmly?

MR. KELLEY: You would be treated with complete terror on first walking in. And then, once they got someone to talk to you — the security guard would have some kind of an attack, I'm sure: “My God, the Mayor's here.”

And then, when he got someone that was more capable or qualified or that was their job, they would show you around. They'd show you the chapel; they'd show you the classroom upstairs, the lobby, you know, these real innocuous things. You know, they won't show you some of the more grisly conditions, you know, say, a crowded dormitory room or, heaven forbid, the RPF auditing room, or —

MRS. GARVEY: What's the RPF auditing room?

MR. KELLEY: — the — anything else, you know.

They'll just show you this, you know, nice, clean —

MR. LeCHER: What is the RPF auditing room? Mrs. Garvey was thinking out loud. What really is the RPF auditing room? I'd like to know, too.

MR. KELLEY: Just a big room in the garage where they do their auditing.

Normally, auditing is done in a private room. But in the RPF, you've got four or five guys auditing in the same room.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

We are running out of time and I want to get to Mr. Berfield and Mr. Calderbank and give them some time, so I will give it to Mr. Berfield — Mr. Calderbank, and if he wants to follow up on CMO and the hundred men — people here and anything about the disquieting effect they have on the City of Clearwater.

MR. CALDERBANK: Casey, you were given specific money for a job, eight-sixty a week, then, seventeen-twenty per week?

MR. KELLEY: Right. And then, it went up to $20.00 a week.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you have hours, specific hours you had for work?

MR. KELLEY: There was a muster that I was supposed to attend.

MR. CALDERBANK: That they required?

MR. KELLEY: Right. It was right after breakfast, right after meals.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever sign any — did you ever see a W-2 form?

MR. KELLEY: Yeah, when I first came on staff.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you sign it?

MR. KELLEY: As far as I know, I did.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever give a social security number or a waiver for your salary?

MR. KELLEY: I'm trying to remember if I — I'm sure I did; I must have, because that's on the W-2 form, isn't it?

I know I never filed a tax form.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you file a waiver for that —

MR. KELLEY: I don't think so.

MR. CALDERBANK: When you — when you did the paperwork, you said you saw almost all the invoices?

MR. KELLEY: All of the invoices.

MR. CALDERBANK: All of them?

MR. KELLEY: All of them.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see any invoices for, say, private interests?

MR. KELLEY: For a business?


MR. KELLEY: On occasion. I'm trying — I've been trying to remember for the last two days what they were, though. I remember one in Los Angeles.

Mostly people paid in their own names. There was a couple of smaller businesses that were owned by Scientologists, but they had their own account for the business.

MR. CALDERBANK: In the Church?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: And they owned this business as a private individual?

MR. KELLEY: Right.


MR.. KELLEY: And they would have these documents on them.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you know that for a fact?


MR. CALDERBANK: Can you give me a name?

MR. LeCHER: We're not really — I've been advised not to have you give names because that —

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you have personal experience with that?



MR. LeCHER: It may be objectionable to some people.


Someone else — or you mentioned, also, that you had a person prior to you that falsified statistics?


MR. CALDERBANK: Is that a widespread practice on an —

MR. KELLEY: Not after him.

MR. CALDERBANK: Are there checks?


MR. CALDERBANK: Are there any checks implemented now to —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: — to see if anyone is falsifying statistics?

MR. KELLEY: There is on the income statistics. It’s still very easy to falsify a statistic, but that’s a high crime. That’s — you’d be in a major amount of trouble for falsifying —

MR. CALDERBANK: Would it be a high crime to falsify to an outside government?

MR. KELLEY: Oh. It would be a high crime to falsify to Scientology let alone someone outside the organization.

MR. CALDERBANK: What about the money — you said you had thirty bank accounts in many different —

MR. KELLEY: Thirty’s a rough guess.

MR. CALDERBANK: About — in many different accounts within the Church.

Were any specifically in the GO office?


MR. CALDERBANK: Could you trace any — you’ve heard of activities in the GO that could be considered criminal in nature.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see any invoices, specifically —


MR. CALDERBANK: -- lining that up?

MR. KELLEY: No. The invoices that I saw were all money coming in.


MR. KELLEY: I didn’t see any money going out.

MR. CALDERBANK: Was there any way you could have been able to tell, just by the records that you had, whether or not the money was going for those types of activities?


MR. CALDERBANK: Are there other buildings outside of Clearwater that Scientology owns?

MR. KELLEY: Well, there are —


MR. KELLEY: Well, there’s orgs. — there’s — they own buildings around the world.

MR. CALDERBANK: Are they used by private individuals?

MR. KELLEY: Not to my knowledge.

MR. CALDERBANK: All right.

You talked about the money and investment, and you used the specific word “invest.”

Do you remember that when you talked —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: — about gold?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Is that when gold was going up?

MR. KELLEY: That was a very vague conversation, so that’s why I was very vague yesterday. It was mentioned in passing in an office that I was in.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember the name of the person that mentioned. it?

MR. KELLEY: Mr. Shomer.


He talked about, perhaps, buying gold when it was on its way up?

MR. KELLEY: Right, because he made a small — he makes personal money on it.

MR. CALDERBANK: He made personal money on it?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. Out of his own personal funds, he bought some silver or something and he sold it later at a much higher price.


Do you have any idea of whether or not the money that comes into the Church is used in this type of investment?

MR. KELLEY: I have no idea if it — I don’t —

MR. CALDERBANK: But it was talked about?

MR. KELLEY: It was discussed.


When you talked, also, about people as Mr. Hagen in Europe, you mentioned that —

MR. KELLEY: Hegetschweiler.

MR. CALDERBANK: Hegetschweiler.

You talked about bonuses, percentages, you talked about commissions.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: There were certain specific commissions for services rendered?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you always called them services, correct?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: And there was specific money paid for specific services?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Specific hours?

MR. KELLEY: Right.


MR. KELLEY: Sometimes specific auditors, too.

MR. CALDERBANK: — money — specific auditors, too?

MR. KELLEY: Sometimes.

MR. CALDERBANK: Fulfilling their task within the organization?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they receive commissions, also?

MR. KELLEY: Registrars usually — I can't remember what the percentage was. Those people made decent money.

MR. CALDERBANK: Were any of these people registered with the state who were taking commissions?

MR. KELLEY: Not to my knowledge.

MR. CALDERBANK: When — if there were potential problems, do you think anyone that would want to see the flow of money either coming in or going out of the Church, do you think that would, in your own personal opinion — would that stop any person, his being able to participate in the activities of Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: Can you rephrase that and say it again?

MR. CALDERBANK: It's hard to rephrase.

MR. LeCHER: Well, say it again so he understands what he's going to say.

MR. CALDERBANK: If those invoices were made public that you saw going across your desk every day —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: — and if the people that were giving the money in checks, the registrars —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: — if those were tallied and were available — which you did, you said four or five hundred thousand dollars — if those were tallied and those were available or in a statement form, would that prevent anybody that paid the money from obtaining the services?


MR. CALDERBANK: You don't think it would stop them from participating in what they paid for?

MR. KELLEY: No. Once they paid — let me see if I get you right, if I understand.

MR. CALDERBANK: I'm asking if people that donated —

MR. KELLEY: They always get that service. That's unless for some reason they didn't want to do that specific service; they could do another service.

MR. CALDERBANK: So, basically, the question is: Tracing that money won't stop people from getting the services?

MR. KELLEY: Right. The money is — the money is — the accounting isn't too bad, it's usually fairly accurate.

MR. CALDERBANK: And it wouldn't stop them from enjoying what they find in Scientology?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

How would it — wait a minute. How would it stop them, because it's just money that they've paid, right?

MR. CALDERBANK: I wanted to ask you because you are the first witness that has the most intimate —

MR. KELLEY: It's like —

MR. CALDERBANK: — knowledge about the money —

MR. KELLEY: It's like buying — like paying for a room in a hotel, you know. You get an invoice and, then, you go ahead and stay in the hotel.

MR. CALDERBANK: Why do you keep referring to it as services?

MR. KELLEY: That's what they're called.

MR. CALDERBANK: Was anyone ever given —

MR. KELLEY: It's a service —


MR. KELLEY: — as opposed to goods and services; it's a service.

MR. CALDERBANK: Have you ever seen anyone get a service for less than going price?

MR. KELLEY: No. That was not allowed.

MR. CALDERBANK: Was it ever —

MR. KELLEY: It's a flat rate and that's what you paid. You could get a five percent discount for going — for paying early. Five percent? I think it was five percent; it could have been ten.


When you were talking about auditing, you said that people would be stopped half way through if they paid, like, say, twenty thousand; that's the number you used —

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: And did you say that they had been told — or have you ever heard it as a policy that without further auditing they may become ill?

MR. KELLEY: That happened. That was a common technique.

MR. CALDERBANK: That was a common technique, telling someone they would get ill?

MR. KELLEY: If — it was — if they were in the middle of an auditing action. Let's say you paid for, let's say, twenty-five hours to complete such and such a rundown, and you got to the end of that twenty-five hours and you still hadn't finished, that was the common technique: "You're going to get sick if you don't finish this," you know. So, you have to buy —

MR. CALDERBANK: If you don't finish it, you have to buy —

MR. KELLEY: You have to buy another intensive; you have to buy another twelve and-a-half hours.

MR. CALDERBANK: What about the waivers that you signed? They were actual — they told you that they would stand up in a court of law and they were acceptable?

MR. KELLEY: No, I was never told that. But, boy, they sure looked — they looked legal. I mean, "Whereas" — you know, they had legal terminology.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did that make you feel that if you left you could be sued for the money on the freeloader's debt or whatever?

MR. KELLEY: Nobody reads them. They didn't. One of the things that you sign — when you do a course, you sign a promissory note and an invoice; that's staff members. You never read that stuff because you're usually in a hurry to go start the course.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you think it was legal at the time you did it?

MR. KELLEY: I didn't know. It looked it. It looked pretty legal.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. Then, the last area: Since you saw the invoices, did you see any invoices for textbooks, say, Calculus, Biology —

MR. KELLEY: Never.

MR. CALDERBANK: No textbooks?

MR. KELLEY: Never. Once in a while a dictionary. They sold dictionaries in the bookstore.

MR. CALDERBANK: So you never saw, say, regular schoolbooks for children ever purchased from the Church fund?

MR. KELLEY: That — again, that's money going out.

MR. CALDERBANK: Yes. But the company would bill you with an invoice, wouldn't they?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. But that was still — that was going money out. I wouldn't see that.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you never saw money spent for fire extinguishers, extinguisher —

MR. KELLEY: I know that — I know that that sort of — I know — I think they're legal on that sort of thing. I know the Clearwater building is because the lights have gone out a few times, those little lights they have over the entranceways. Those go on —

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see money leave Church to perform any of those functions?

MR. KELLEY: I never saw money leave the Church. That's a different — see, the place I spent most of my time was in the other part of the — which is the income, the Director of Income.


MR. KELLEY: And the place the money went out from was the disbursement end. It was just — it was in another building, another office.

MR. CALDERBANK: And my last question is: You mentioned that you had gotten food poisoning.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: A few times?

MR. KELLEY: Two or three.

MR. CALDERBANK: Two or three?

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Where had you eaten that food?

MR. KELLEY: In the — in a room in the Clearwater building and in the Fort Harrison building.


MR. KELLEY: That was fairly — that happened —

MR. CALDERBANK: — common?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. When somebody would get it, usually, a few people got it. And you went to sick bay and they gave you some vitamins and you went to bed. That's usually what I did. I just would sleep. I'd be all right in a day or two.

MR. CALDERBANK: No further questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Mayor, if you will recall, I started this off yesterday, but I did have a couple of questions that I didn't get a chance to ask.

Mr. Kelley, there seems to be a thread running through here of vagueness in names. Is that because of a part —

MR. KELLEY: No. It's an unwillingness to give names. I can give you names, addresses.

MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if we ask for the names and the addresses, they are available to us?

MR. KELLEY: Certainly. I can give you names.


The other situation is that you keep referring to — in Mr. Calderbank's questioning here — the money going out.

MR. KELLEY: Right.

MR. BERFIELD: And this being somewhat of a para — it seems to have a military organization to it, if there was a need to know and you went across and asked where this money went, what would happen to you?

MR. KELLEY: They'd probably tell you to — they'd probably say to leave them alone because it wasn't — it was what they call unnecessary noise. You don't need to know.

MR. BERFIELD: So, it goes back to military: Just what you need to know is —

MR. KELLEY: Right, basically.

MR. BERFIELD: Just one last question here: You referred to this RPF auditing room as awesome.

What was so much more awesome about it than any of the other auditing rooms?

MR. KELLEY: Well, a regular auditing room is just one — it's just you in the room. And the RPF — there's another unit that used to do their auditing in the same room. It's just a big — big room with about four or five tables in it, and that's where you do your auditing.

I mean, you'd be auditing here and someone else would be next to you auditing on a totally different thing.

That gets into a strange — they used to get into a strange phenomenon at times.

MR. BERFIELD: Well, about the RPF auditing room, you had specifically said that there was something awesome about that. What's awesome?

MR. KELLEY: Well, comparatively, because in a regular auditing room, that's where you're doing your counseling. And it's between you and your auditor. That doesn't — I don't need to go into that. But that's a real quiet place and it's real private.

And the RPF auditing room is so noisy, you know. There was a lot of people in there. It was also clutter and that sort of thing.

When I first came on staff, I was in the Flag Readiness Room, and in that operation we did the same thing. We audited in this big room. And that — that's all. It's just real cluttered and large.

MR. BERFIELD: I have no further questions.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

MRS. GARVEY: In auditing, were you told that the E-Meter was scientifically based or not?

MR. KELLEY: Scientifically based? Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: That they were scientifically based?

MR. KELLEY: Right, that it was a scientific instrument that would run a small matter of charges through your body that measures electronically — or electrically.

LeCHER: I just have one — two quickies.

What is IMO? Then we're going to go —


MR. LeCHER: It's evidenced with —


MR. LeCHER: "See your executives, the IMO."


MR. LeCHER: Is that — I make it IMO.


MR. LeCHER: It's the International Management Board?

MR. KELLEY: If it is, it's come on since I left.

MR. LeCHER: It's 1981. One other question: You talked about giving money for a room as a — more or less of a donation or as for services. You also said that for anything that they sold there. You also mentioned getting a five percent discount.

Do you think it's possible to get a five percent discount on a donation?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, yeah. See, there's an advance payment discount —

MR. LeCHER: No, no. If I buy something and I pay cash, I might get five percent. But how can you get five percent off a donation? It doesn't seem —

MR. KELLEY: Oh, how can you get the five percent itself? I don't understand what you —

MR. LeCHER: Well.

MR. KELLEY: That would be a discount.

MR. CALDERBANK: He doesn't understand.

MR. KELLEY: Say, the services were originally $15,000.00, the discount would be twelve thousand five hundred whatever.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you ever hear the word "donation"?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, sure. That's what they were considered, donations.

MR. LeCHER: My question is: How could you give a discount on a donation? I can see you giving me a discount on —

MR. KELLEY: Oh, I see what —

MR. LeCHER: — a purchase because you pay cash, but you can't give a discount on a donation.

MR. KELLEY: I see. Good point.

They were called — they were called donations. There was also a five percent discount.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Was your brother's name in an auditing folder? You mentioned your brother was upset with your —

MR. KELLEY: He was more likely in my Ethics folder.

MR. LeCHER: So, that's how they tracked down your brother or —

MR. KELLEY: Quite possibly. They may have possibly wire tapped; he was calling around the country trying to find out something about Scientology. Because no one else knew I was there but —

MR. LeCHER: Do you know anything about wire taps?

MR. KELLEY: I know that they have been used with other people.

MR. LeCHER: With members or enemies?

MR. KELLEY: Enemies, always enemies.

That's not — that's not personal knowledge while I was in Clearwater. It's knowledge I ascertained after I got out.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Then, it's not firsthand that you actually saw —


MR. LeCHER: We have to try to go through five witnesses today, ladies and gentlemen. And we have no more questions, at least, I have none. I have plenty to ask you, but I think we better get moving.

I want to thank you for coming.

Do you want to say anything in conclusion?

MR. KELLEY: No, I don't.

I think I've pretty much said what I wanted to say.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much for coming.

Now, we — you have another witness?

MR. FLYNN: I do, Mayor. And I'd just like to make — Rosie Pace, please — a little point of information, if I could, for the benefit of, perhaps, the city and the Commission.

As a consultant, I have endeavored to present a cross-section of different witnesses on different levels of the organization, and — of which Mr. Kelley represents one particular level as Mr. Walters represented a particular level: a policy level, as opposed to Mr. Kelley, for instance, being on the level that he was on as he described it.

And it might be something that should be kept in mind as different witnesses may have participated in very compartmentalized activities, such as Guardian's Office activities as opposed to Treasury Division activities in terms of very isolated jobs. And you might find that different witnesses look at the organization in terms of their experiences on the level that they were operating on.

The next witness is an individual named Rosie Pace and, while she's coming in, I'll quickly introduce a few documents.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Rosie Pace is the next witness; is that correct? It's not —

MR. FLYNN: No. We'll go with Rosie Pace now.

MR. LeCHER: Do you want to lower this —

MR. FLYNN: If I could, please.

Exhibit 30:

MR. FLYNN: Exhibit No. 30 will be a Hubbard Communications Office policy letter in June 1959. And I will refer the Commission to the bottom of the page dealing with "duplicate contracts, releases and promissory notes."

And the relevant portion is as follows: "Any staff member signing up a preclear student or PE attendee will get one original and one carbon copy of each contract, release, and promissory note necessary to be signed." And then, skipping down to the last paragraph: "The carbon copy of the contract and release, along with the yellow invoice, is routed to the Associate Secretary and from him to the department head concerned: the Director of Processing, the Director of Training, or the PE Foundation Director. After being reviewed by the department head, these are then routed for filing in the administrative division of each department. A carbon copy of the promissory note is routed to the Director of Accounts. The policy — this policy must be rigidly enforced as it saves much expense in administrative time."

It's copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard.

(A copy of a policy letter from Hubbard Communications Office, dated June 1959, was marked as Exhibit No. 30, as of this date.)

MR. FLYNN: The next document — the next document is a form affidavit.

Exhibit 31:

(A copy of an affidavit was marked as Exhibit No. 31, as of this date.)

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, if I might ask: For instance, on that last document, it said it was copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard and it said Mary Sue Hubbard for L. Ron Hubbard.

Would you explain that as to what effect that has from a legal point of view?

MR. FLYNN: Everything — or 99.9 percent of the publications of the Church of Scientology are copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard. At various points in time in connection with various areas of responsibility, such as Guardian's Office activities, there was an immediate level of recognition in responsibility below L. Ron Hubbard, and that was, primarily, Guardian's Office Legal Affairs and Guardian's Office B 1 Activities, which is intelligence gathering activities, for which Mary Sue Hubbard was directly responsible.

So, in those types of publications, her name also appears.

And Exhibit 31 is a form affidavit for the Church of Scientology with regard to — and I won't bother reading through all this because we have a number of forms for people who actually signed them. But basically, it's a promise not to divulge any information about the Church of Scientology without the prior consent of Hubbard, its members, and the organization itself.

MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, where are these coming from, so that we know they're not something that's just being made up?

MR. FLYNN: All right.

Well, the HCO policy letter comes right out of a set of green volumes which, in order to — in view of the time constraints we're working under, I would have to put into evidence all of the green volumes. If it becomes necessary, we'll do that. There's some twelve of them. And all of the ten red technical bulletins. And if it becomes necessary, we'll do that. But the amount of the paperwork the Commission could be confronted with in a very short time would be unwieldy.

MR. BERFIELD: No. I mean, if you would just address that so that —

MRS. GARVEY: Just say where it's coming from.

MR. BERFIELD: — just where it's —

MR. FLYNN: That's where it's coming from.

And if need be, at the conclusion of the hearings, we can just simply put all of those books into evidence and correlate them to the particular xerox copies that I'm introducing now.

And the form affidavit is also such a document.

Affidavit of Janet Troy:

The next exhibit, Affidavit of Janet Troy, is — and there will be an affidavit signed by Janet Troy relative to this document and relative to other matters that are involved with the Church of Scientology, which will be introduced at a later time and we'll tie the two together.

Basically, if you go down to paragraph six, Janet has stated that she "hereby discharges fully and releases L. Ron Hubbard, any Scientologist, and Scientology course, their assigns and successors from all rights, claims, or any actions myself or any successor or assigned to myself may have now or hereafter the signing of this agreement against L. Ron Hubbard, any person, any Scientology Church, their assigns or successors. This release is freely and voluntarily executed by myself with my understanding of the terms used herein and the consequences resulting therefrom.

"That I do hereby waive all rights to refund or repayment of any donations that I have made or will make in the future to the Church of Scientology. I waive this right of my own free will."

(A copy of the Affidavit of Janet Troy was marked as Exhibit No. 31, as of this date.)

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, is that legal?

MR. FLYNN: I believe the evidence will be that in — for most people entering Scientology, they're made to sign these documents at the outset and, for the most part, they have no idea what they're signing. At various points during their proceeding through Scientology, when difficulties arise — if difficulties arise — and as the last witness testified, he left, and during the time he was in he was never in the RPF; so, no difficulties arose until he had already left. And afterward, his brother — his brother's wife was visited by some unknown people.

But if difficulties arise of a substantial nature during the period that they're in the Church, I believe the evidence will show that these people are made to believe that, these documents are enforceable in a court of law. And I also believe that the evidence will show that items such as I'm about to introduce indicate that promissory notes, legal promissory notes, were signed.

In fact, when you asked me, "Is it legal," well, I would say that the thing is utterly unenforceable. But the issue is whether or not the people are made to believe that it might be enforceable.

MR. LeCHER: Didn't one of the witnesses say that they were told that the money would be — it would be a money back guarantee, and some, at least, tried to get their money back and they were promised but never received it?

MR. FLYNN: That's true.

I think that the testimony there and the testimony in the future will be that they are told about a refund policy, but, in fact, as you just saw in the Janet Troy Affidavit, it's often times — most of the time they sign documents that they don't even realize they're signing, saying they can't get a refund. And then, they are led to another policy which says they can get a refund.

So, there's a conflict between the two policies. And most of the time, the people have no idea what their rights are.

MRS. GARVEY: Was Janet Troy a staff member?

MR. FLYNN: Janet Troy was a staff member; that's correct.

MRS. GARVEY: Is it different for a staff member than it is for a Scientologist that's coming for a course

MR. FLYNN: It is.

The people that sign — there are different types of waivers and different types of releases that are signed for contract or staff members as opposed to a public person who is just coming to get services.

For instance, the first affidavit that I introduced in blank form was for someone who was a public person. The one I just introduced is for a staff member.

MR. CALDERBANK: But these are made or represented to the people as legal, documents, binding in the outside world?

MR. FLYNN: As I indicated before, for the most part, when they're signing them, they don't even know what they're signing. When difficulties arise, they are presented with the fact that they are enforceable documents and they can be used against them in a court of law.

And in fact, there will be affidavits in evidence to that effect, which brings up one more point. In view of the time and cost constraints of the four days that we're laboring under and the seventeen or so witnesses we're going to try to get through, I'm presenting affidavits of people on some subjects to corroborate other pieces of evidence. If the city at some point, having its appetite whetted, so to speak, about the potential scope of this subject saw fit to continue the hearings and bring in more witnesses, I would suggest to the Commission that there are many, many more witnesses who could come in and testify about specific points.

MR. CALDERBANK: Are these individual malcontents or are there many people like this who have been going through the same or similar circumstances where they've been threatened, harassed, apparently, threatened to be sued by L. Ron Hubbard?

MR. FLYNN: What I have endeavored to do is rather than bring witnesses who have just been harassed, I endeavored to bring in witnesses who represent a cross-section of their experiences in Scientology so that the Commission, I believe, at the end of four days will have experiences with different people in different positions who experienced different things in the organization, rather than just a selection of victims who have been harassed, some of which you will hear about in detail.

MR. LeCHER: One thing about the contracts: You mentioned — the young man, Mr. Kelley, mentioned about young people younger than him, younger than eighteen, that were twelve and thirteen and handling vast sums of money.

Do they also sign these contracts?

Exhibit of Tonja Burden:

MR. FLYNN: The next exhibit is an exhibit of Tonja Burden — it's a multi-page exhibit with some fifty or seventy thousand dollars of promissory notes — who worked for the organization from the age of thirteen to the age of seventeen. She never was given any education in this city; she was for two years and three months.

And as you will see from the exhibit, she signed releases, non-disclosure bonds, promissory notes —

MR. LeCHER: At what age did she sign these?

MR. FLYNN: At varying ages during — with regard to the invoices and the promissory notes, at various times when she was in the city. With regard to the releases, she signed releases when she was in the organization. And then, afterwards, she was taken — after she escaped from the City of Clearwater, as the affidavit will show — and if need be, she can be called as a witness, but she does have a lawsuit against the Church, and I have made an effort to discriminate between individuals who have a lawsuit and those who don't, but she could be called as a witness.

And as her — some of her documents show, she was — and her affidavit will show to the Commission, after she literally escaped from the Fort Harrison RPF, she went home to her — the City of Las Vegas. And approximately two or three weeks later, two Guardian's Office operatives arrived in the City of Las Vegas and took her to Los Angeles, locked her in a room, and put her on the cans. And after that, she was made to sign many documents which are here, which I won't read at this particular time but I'll read in connection with her affidavit, whereby she was informed that she owed the organization some sixty thousand dollars. And this is after she was out of the organization.

And she was sent a freeloader's debt of $63,000.00 which she was told she had to pay and —

MR. LeCHER: What I'm getting at: Would she sign something that she believed to be legal? Was she a minor; was she under age?

MR. FLYNN: That's correct.

MR. LeCHER: She was what, sixteen years old?

MR. FLYNN: That's correct.

She was signing — she signed many documents at various points in time from the age of thirteen to the age of seventeen.

MR. LeCHER: Can a thirteen to a seventeen year old sign something to pay eighty, ninety thousand dollars?

MR. FLYNN: Of course not.

MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, a question that I have here: This is an administrative or a legislative hearing, and some of the rules of justice do not prevail here on hearsay and what have you. But if you had to introduce all of this into evidence, you said that it would be voluminous.

What are you talking about in size?

MR. FLYNN: Well, for instance, if we — when Mr. Walters was on the witness stand — he is aware of most policies within the Church — and to go into every policy, his testimony could have taken a week in itself because of the scope of his knowledge. And we could have put into evidence, probably, fifteen or twenty different volumes of some six hundred or seven hundred pages each, together with, probably, a thousand documents of Guardian's Office activities, which would begin to display the scope of the operation.

Since we don't have those — that amount of time — and we're laboring under financial constraints — what I've endeavored to do is to present some people at different levels. And you will be hearing from some Guardian's Office operatives who, actually, have committed burglaries. You have just heard from an individual who was simply a young boy who came into the organization and worked at a very low level here at the Fort Harrison, and you heard it from his point of view. And you've heard Mr. Walters' experiences from his point of view.

So, in order to give you a proper perspective — we could be here for two months. And in my own judgment, having worked with the subject for three years, you would begin to realize the scope of the problem, in my own judgment.

In any event, the next witness is Rosie Pace.

MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace.

Will you bring in Miss Pace, please.

Commissioners, again I ask you to — and I remind myself, too — that we should be to the point and brief because we do have thirteen or fourteen witnesses to go. And I think we have a day and-a-half to do it in.

MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, while she's coming in: Mr. Flynn, these volumes are available for our inspection, are they not?

MR. FLYNN: Absolutely. And if the Commission desires, I will have them introduced into evidence at the close of the proceedings for your perusal.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Commissioner Berfield, also, some of the — many of the documents which Mr. Flynn is referring to were, in fact, submitted as appendices to his initial report. The problem with that was that the appendices were about this high —

MR. BERFIELD: I realize that.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — in addition to the report, so we didn't distribute them. Certainly, they are available in the public library and they're also available down at the City Clerk's Office for anyone who wants to see them.

MR. FLYNN: Correct.

On that point, I would like to simply suggest, that just to review Guardian's Office documents involving operations in the City of Clearwater, there's a volume about yea thick of probably a thousand pages. On Guardian's Office operations nationwide, it's probably five to ten thousand pages thick that are either currently on record or could be produced. And that is not even getting into issues of financial issues, training issues, legal issues, such as the releases and the waivers I put into evidence.

MR. CALDERBANK: If it pleased the Commission, at the end of the hearing process, then, I would like to have as many of these documents entered in, in addition to the documents that he is entering in throughout — or during the testimony to substantiate them. I'd like as much information as possible from both sides.
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Part 3 of 12


MR. LeCHER: All right. Let's get with Miss Pace. Miss Rosie Pace.

I have to ask you the five — before I do that, I must ask you to get sworn in, please.

Is the Clerk there, Mrs. Lamkin?

ROSIE PACE, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Miss Pace, we're going to ask you the five basic questions, then, we'll get on to have you discuss your role.

The first question: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than the expenses for coming to Clearwater?


MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?


MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Has, anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth, or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Are you — just to set the stage here, are you the sister of Lori?

MS. PACE: Yes, I am.

MR. LeCHER: Who spoke yesterday.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace, would you like to make a statement or would you like me to start asking you questions, or would you like to do it in your own way?

MS. PACE: Well, I'd like to tell you how I got into Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to hear that.

MS. PACE: Okay.

I've been in — first of all, I'm very, very nervous.

MR. LeCHER: I know you are and you've been waiting a long time and so forth.

MS. PACE: I came into Scientology seventeen years ago in 1965. I was thirteen. And I was having a lot of trouble with school and I didn't want to go.

MR. LeCHER: To school?

MS. PACE: Yes.

So, my sister, Lori, had gotten involved in Scientology and she felt that it could help me. And her intention was that that would make me want to go to school.

But when I went into the organization, they told me, well, I was right in not wanting to go to school and —

MR. LeCHER: At age thirteen?

MS. PACE: Yes.

And that the Board of Education was suppressive, and that I would be harmed if I did go to school. And at the time, I loved it; I thought that was great. And that they would write a letter to the Board of Education that I was getting spiritual counseling so that I wouldn't be sent to a reform school or anything like that, that it was okay that I didn't go to school because of the spiritual counseling.

MR. LeCHER: Did they write a letter to the Board of Education?

MS. PACE: Yes, they did.

MR. LeCHER: Did the Board of Education in that particular community agree that spiritual counseling was more valuable than school?

MS. PACE: At the time, it was for — it was supposed to be for a brief period of time that I would be getting the counseling. Somehow, I managed not to go to school. I just wanted not — not to be sent to a reform school. And I started getting Scientology training at the age of fourteen. And I was a highly classed auditor at the age of sixteen. And that has been my life.

MR. LeCHER: Your life — when did you leave the Church?

MS. PACE: Just two months ago, officially.

MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me something with respect — were you in Clearwater?

MS. PACE: Yes, I was.

MR. LeCHER: How long were you in Clearwater?

MS. PACE: I was in Clearwater for seven months, from May '79 till December '79.

MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me something about the activities in Clearwater?

MS. PACE: Well —

MR. LeCHER: From your first person point of view, what you actually saw?

MS. PACE: All right.

I arrived in Clearwater, and the first night I was taken to a room at the Gray Moss because there was no dorm for me. The next night I was brought to a dorm which had no light, and I had my luggage and I couldn't get in the room. There were about ten beds in the room.

MR. LeCHER: How old were you at the time?

MS. PACE: This is three years ago; I was twenty-seven.

And there were suitcases all over the room, no light. So, I just walked down the stairs and I said, "I'd like to pay for my own room because I don't want to stay in the dorm," and that's what I did.

And I was here for NED for OTs training.

MR. LeCHER: NED for OTs?

MS. PACE: NED for OTs.

MR. LeCHER: Oh, NED for OTs.

MS. PACE: Right, which was supposed to be beyond your wildest dreams and it was just going to handle everything that's wrong with you, and that I would be treated like gold when I got to Flag Land Base. And I later found out that that was an absolute lie.

I started my training. It was going along fine. And Lori had come one month later. And she was having a little bit of trouble and she blew, like she said. And my other sister, Annie, was with me.

We got pulled into Ethics, immediately, and they told us it was a conspiracy. And I got very physically ill. I had a high fever and swollen glands and I couldn't get out of bed. And I was ordered out of bed because there was going to be a meeting with the senior CS of the Flag Land Base.

So, I got out of bed and he screamed and screamed and screamed and ordered me back on post the next morning. Also, my sister, Annie, who's not here, was sick, also. And he ordered her back on post the next morning and said he would not tolerate any illness.

MR. LeCHER: Who was "he," and what was his title?

MS. PACE: He was the senior case supervisor; his name was Jeff Walker.

And Lori came back the next day. By this time, I was afraid for Lori because, as far as I was concerned, this man, this Jeff Walker, was insane. He was screaming and just totally psychotic.

Anyway, Lori came back. And I was having severe headaches. I've had them for a long time. And they had gotten worse. And I decided to see an eye doctor because +I had some trouble with my eyes and I thought maybe that was the problem.

Anyway, it ended up, I had an eye operation. That's how I got out of the Flag Land Base. Before then, I couldn't get out; I thought I couldn't get out, mentally; I couldn't leave.

MR. LeCHER: What was wrong with you that they forced you out of bed? I mean, were you just emotionally drained or did you have the flu or —

MS. PACE: I had a high fever and swollen glands, sore throat, and I was just very weak. I was very upset that my sister had blown because that's the worst thing you can do in Scientology. And I was afraid of what was going to happen to her when she returned.

MR. LeCHER: Were you concerned then that you might infect other people?

MS. PACE: I'm sorry?

MR. LeCHER: Weren't you or they concerned that you might infect other people? Forgetting about your own health, if you did have a temperature, you may have a tendency to infect the whole dorm or the whole organization.

MS. PACE: Well, obviously, he didn't care.

MR. LeCHER: Is that standard practice, that if you feel ill you cannot go to a doctor?

MS. PACE: Well, you're allowed to go to a doctor. I wasn't told to go to a doctor I was told to return to post. So, that's all I know.

You are allowed to see a doctor.

MR. LeCHER: Can you go alone to see a doctor or must you be escorted there by —

MS. PACE: The MAA, the Master at Arms, of Flag Land Base said he'd have to come with me.

MR. LeCHER: You couldn't go on your own?

MS. PACE: Well, I convinced him that I was able to go on my own, that I really didn't want him to come with me.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you give that title, again, please?

MS. PACE: Master at Arms.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Master at Arms.

MS. PACE: That's the Ethics Officer.

MR. LeCHER: If you had a physical ailment that may be rather personal in nature, would that ailment be concealed from the Master at Arms or from the organization, and would it be just between you and your doctor?

MS. PACE: No. The doctor is to write a report and give it to the Medical Officer.

MR. LeCHER: Were these doctors chosen at random out of the phone book or were they Scientology doctors?

MS. PACE: They weren't Scientology doctors.

MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me about — anything, more about the living conditions in Clearwater?

MS. PACE: Well, I didn't live in a dorm. But after I had my eye operation, I couldn't stay in my regular room because there was auditing going on in there, and I spent most of my days in the dorms just sleeping on a bunk. And there were ants crawling all over you. There were —

MR. LeCHER: Ants?

MS. PACE: — ants all over the bed. There were about eight to ten beds in each room, no air conditioner, luggage all over the room; you could hardly walk. There were roaches all over the entire building.

MR. LeCHER: What about maid service — or did you change your own linens and wash your own linens?

MS. PACE: If you're — if you're a staff member, you handle your own linens, do your own laundry. If you're a public person —

MR. LeCHER: You had maid service?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Who — where did you find these maids? Were they from within the community, trained domestics, or were they also Scientologists that were doing —

MS. PACE: They were staff members.

MR. LeCHER: Staff members.

MS. PACE: Of the Church of Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: How do you get to be a maid? I mean, do you apply for the job or are you given that job for performing your duties —

MS. PACE: Well, I think, when you first come in, you do this sort of work.

MR. LeCHER: You work your way up within the organization?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: From a maid to a higher, position?

MS. PACE: Yes.

I didn't go through this process, but I — you do physical work before you're promoted.

MR. LeCHER: You apparently were highly trained within the Church of Scientology. How did — how much money were you paid as a staff member?

MS. PACE: Well, it varied through the years. Sometimes, nothing; sometimes, twenty dollars a week, depending on how much they made that week.

MR. LeCHER: If you were started at thirteen — and you say you were in there for seventeen years?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: And obviously, your education must have been limited; your skills, marketing skills, must have been limited. You were paid, at most, twenty dollars a week.

How did you support yourself, buy personal objects, clothes, and things?

MS. PACE: Well, when I was a teenager, I lived with my sisters and I babysat for them. And Lori was married, my sister, Lori. That's how I lived then. And I worked on the outside to support myself later on.

MR. LeCHER: Did you work in Clearwater?


I had a business in California when I was at Clearwater. That's how I was able to get my own room.

MR. LeCHER: You and your sister seem like very industrious women in spite of all you've been through, the number of years' hell that were spent in Scientology.

We talked about the — did you have — what about the Fair Game? Has it been affecting you when you left — since you left the Church, have they tried to contact you or talk you into coming back within the organization?


The only person who called me was my husband, who left me. When I told him what I had found out about Scientology, that I had just been miserable —

MR. LeCHER: Is he a Scientologist?

MS. PACE: He's in the Sea Org., and he's filings for divorce. And he's the only person who has called me and tried to harass me, but hasn't.

MR. LeCHER: If you were not married to a high ranking member, do you think you would have been — I will erase the question.

I'll yield now to Mr. Hatchett.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mrs. Garvey.

MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey, sorry.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever find out in particular what your illness was?


MRS. GARVEY: When you were auditing, did you assume that the auditing information was confidential?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: When you were audited, did you assume the information was confidential?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: When you were auditing, were you told it was based on scientific techniques?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: What were you told about the Guardian Office?

MS. PACE: I was told that the Guardian's Office was there to protect Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard against the FBI, CIA, AMA, that they were attacking Scientology. That's — that's what I honestly believed all these years.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you have any contact at all with anyone from the Guardian's Office or were you ever called in for any reason?


MRS. GARVEY: Does the — did you see the Medical Officer when you were having problems and did he prescribe anything or have any directions for you?

MS. PACE: I saw the Medical Officer once and I told him I wanted to see a doctor, and he didn't prescribe anything. I did have to go through him.


Why did you leave, finally?

MS. PACE: Because I hated it. I wanted to die while I was there. I was hoping — and this is the truth — I was hoping that when I went to the doctor that he would tell me I had cancer. And that — that way, I could get out, because, mentally, I could not leave Flag Land Base unless I was dying.

MRS. GARVEY: You mean, you were so committed towards what you spent — had been doing for seventeen years that you just couldn't say, "I no longer" —

MS. PACE: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: And walk out?

MS. PACE: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: Even though you don't feel that you were getting anything anymore or —

MS. PACE: I was a nervous wreck; I was shaking, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I lost twenty pounds. I was miserable and unhappy, and I couldn't walk out the door. I thought I couldn't walk out the door.

MRS. GARVEY: What — can you explain a little bit why you were so — so miserable, so unhappy? What precipitated that?

MS. PACE: Yeah.

I think, when Lori gave her testimony yesterday — I saw what they did to her. Lori got very physically ill and her leg swelled up. She had arthritis. And I saw her humiliated and forced to work, to do physical labor. And the same thing happened to me.

And I looked around and I said, "What am I doing here? How" — I didn't see that we were freeing the planet or that anyone was getting better. But just that they had people working for seventeen dollars a week from early morning till late at night. And when you get ill, you don't — you get treated badly. Instead of going to a doctor and staying in bed, you're treated very badly.

MRS. GARVEY: The feeling I have between you and your sister is that you love each other very much.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: Do you think you would have believed it if it had been someone that you didn't know personally and very closely?


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett, do you want —


Miss Pace, at the Clearwater Flag operation that's here in Clearwater, did you — or were you aware of an epidemic-type of unhealthy situations that existed, hepatitis or anything like that while you were here in the Clearwater Flag office?


MR. HATCHETT: Were you ever confined for misbehavior or not meeting quotas or anything like that?

MS. PACE: After Lori had left, blew, we were separated and put into our room, and we had a guard by the door and we weren't allowed to leave. She happened to be a friend, and we convinced her to leave, that we wouldn't leave the Flag Land Base.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.

Did you have any knowledge of how money was collected at the Flag operation here in Clearwater?


MR. HATCHETT: Did you sign any contracts or waivers that you could not hold the Church of Scientology responsible in any way for any of their acts?


MR. HATCHETT: When you first came in, did you sign waivers and you may not have been aware of what you were signing?

MS. PACE: Yes. I have signed waivers.

MR. HATCHETT: You have signed waivers?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: All right.

Were you aware of the RPF-type of confinement?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: Did you actually have firsthand experience there?

MS. PACE: I have never been on the RPF, but I've seen people on the RPF.

MR. HATCHETT: What may have been your impression of their physical condition going in or coming out?

MS. PACE: I saw people with sores all over their body. On the RPF, you're not allowed to walk ever, you have to run constantly. And they just look exhausted and physically ill. That's my opinion.

MR. HATCHETT: Would you consider that the conduct of the Church of Scientology, in order to control you and physically control you and, also, to have the proper mind set to serve them for a billion years — have you heard that term?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: Would you call that repressive in any way?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: Yet, they said the world, generally, were repressive, right?

MS. PACE: Uh-huh.

MR. HATCHETT: And they used tactics far beyond that to achieve their goals; would you say that?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: Against anyone?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mrs. Pace, I hope you understand — I know that you're nervous, and I can't blame you, for being here. I've been doing this for a number of years and I still get nervous.

MS. PACE: Okay.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But please be relatively sure that we all are very interested in what you have to say, and the questions we ask — we certainly don't mean to be personally embarrassing, but we are attempting to try to find out certain facts relating to this.

MS. PACE: Okay.

MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm not going to embarrass you; I just wanted to —

MS. PACE: All right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Are you familiar with the Fair Game Doctrine?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What does that mean to you?

MS. PACE: That means that if a person goes against the Church, they are fair game and anything you do to them is all right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Was that common knowledge while you were a Scientologist?

MS. PACE: In the early days it was and, now, I believe, it's supposedly cancelled. But — possibly, they cancelled the policy, but I believe that it still goes on.

MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time that you were still in the Church —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — did you believe that there was such a thing as the Fair Game Doctrine or did you think about it?

MS. PACE: I did believe it.


MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What is the worst thing that can happen to a Scientologist?

MS. PACE: I don't understand.

MR. SHOEMAKER: In terms of devoting your life, which, obviously, you did —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — for a period of sixteen or seventeen years — and I'm walking on sensitive ground with the beliefs — what is the worst thing that somebody could say could happen to you as a Scientologist, the worst thing that could happen to you?

MS. PACE: Do you mean, after you leave the Church or while you're a Scientologist?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Or even leaving the Church —

MS. PACE: I think the worst part of the Church of Scientology is the feeling that you can't leave. Through the processing, which I considered damaging sometimes, I feel it's a — I feel that you can get brainwashed to a point where you feel you can't leave, which is the worst part: the betrayal that you're leaving the group when they're supposedly freeing the planet. And this is drummed into you.

And even now, I still have the effects of Scientology. I'm not over it yet.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you feel that you would have left if it hadn't been for the incident that occurred to your sister?

MS. PACE: Yes, eventually, I would have.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Eventually, you would have?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Is your other sister still in Scientology?

MS. PACE: No, she's not.

MR. SHOEMAKER: She is not.

There was a — Lori mentioned yesterday a comment about folder pages, that is; young people that carry folders, auditing folders, as I understand.

Could you go into that a little bit and tell us what the age of these individuals are and what they do and, to your knowledge, whether they have any kind of an educational process or whatever?

MS. PACE: Well, I think the ages are — from what I've seen —


MS. PACE: — are from about eight years old, maybe, to thirteen, twelve or thirteen. And what they do is carry folders back and forth to the Hubbard Guidance Center, from session to session and, then, back to the Hubbard Guidance Center. That's all — that's all I really know about it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What would be their normal hours of work that you would guess?

MS. PACE: I wouldn't know.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You wouldn't know?


I've never seen them go to school.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You have not?

MS. PACE: No, I haven't.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Have you ever been in the nursery or any of the classrooms or anywhere they may be taught?


MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you aware of the RPF in terms of where they were located in the Church of Scientology, physically?

MS. PACE: I didn't know where they slept.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What were your feelings, your internal beliefs, of Mr. Hubbard, and how did that relate to when you initially became a Scientologist or caused you to stay in there?

MS. PACE: Well, when I initially became a Scientologist, I wasn't interested in L. Ron Hubbard. As I said, I was thirteen.


MS. PACE: Later on, I thought L. Ron Hubbard was the greatest man in the world for developing this technology.

Once I became an auditor and I had all my training, I thought he was the greatest man in the world. I would never say anything against him.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And was much of this based upon his background as portrayed by the Church?

MS. PACE: Yes, his background and what I thought he had done.


And that also relates back to the question of being a nuclear physicist —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — and so forth?

The books that have — that you have read through the time that you've been in Scientology — I'm sure you haven't had time to reread them at this point but — do you think you'd have a different perspective on what those books say now that you —

MS. PACE: Yes, I do.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — no longer —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: From what I understand, being an auditor is a very prestigious type of a position within the Church.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Why did you elect to become an auditor or was this something that was suggested to you or — how did that come about?

MS. PACE: I wanted to help people, and this is how I would do it by getting the training and, then, counseling people.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, this was — this was a major attraction for you then within the Church itself?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time you were doing the auditing — I know Mrs. Garvey mentioned this before but — what would you guess that you have audited, thousands of people?

MS. PACE: Yes.


And during this period of time, certainly, you received a great deal of confidential types of information, from the various people.

How would you relate your role as an auditor to these individuals in terms of what they were saying, like — a confession or —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Similar to a confession?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you did this auditing, were there any promises that were held out to the individuals that you were auditing that you were aware of or that was even made by the Church or — what was supposed to be the benefit of the auditing to the individual?

MS. PACE: Well, basically, the person was asked what they wanted to handle in Scientology before they got counseling.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that might be like what, what types of things that they might wish to handle?

MS. PACE: Well, maybe, they wanted to communicate better, or they had a physical illness —

MR. SHOEMAKER: It could be a physical illness or a mental illness or something like that?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And then, based upon that, what was the auditing to accomplish?

MS. PACE: Whatever the person had said they wanted handled, the auditing would attempt to handle that.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, the auditing was supposed to help that particular problem, whatever it might be?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: It might be a physical illness or a mental illness?

MS. PACE: Yes. I don't believe they ever promised to handle physical illness.


MS. PACE: But in — okay. Well, they do.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace, you have — you're thirty years old, correct?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: And you've been in Scientology over half your life.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: How much education have you had?

MS. PACE: Very little.

MR. LeCHER: What is the last grade you completed in school?

MS. PACE: I went into the ninth grade just, as I say, not to be sent to reform school. But I've never completed it. I didn't go to the eighth grade. I went for a while in the seventh grade.

Most of my training was just in Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: Why do you think that Scientologists want to keep a young woman like you from getting an education? I would — I will not answer the question for you. Why would you think they would want to keep you relatively uneducated?

MS. PACE: Well, the reason I was given was because the educational system was suppressive.

I believe it's because they wanted to use me as a staff member and an auditor.

MR. LeCHER: I have something I'd like to produce as evidence. We have — it's Ethics Order No. — well, I'll read it to you. It's from the Sea Organization and it was found in the public library.

It's Ethics Order No. 56-IMO. As I read it, maybe you can interpret it for me. I don't understand it. It's November 29th, 1981. There's a word I'm not sure how to — new enturbulation order.

MS. PACE: Oh, non-enturbulation order.

MR. LeCHER: Non-enturbulation order.

I'll mention the man's name, Jim Logan, Cram Off WMSP. "There has been several instances of J enturbulating senior executives of the IMO over the past three weeks," parentheses, "(evidence with HCO)," close parentheses. "Lie has been attacking upstarts — upstats, both verbally and in writing off line chits containing the false and alarming data about our senior execs to other senior execs. Any instance of enturbulation from Jim will be dealt with by a Suppressive Person Order being issued forthwith."

And it's signed, "P03 Garrett Knutsom," K-n-u-t-s-o-m, "IMRNSB, authorized by AVC CW for the Board of Directors for the Church of Scientology international."

What's all this about, do you know? Can you interpret this for me? This will be an exhibit.

MS. PACE: I don't know what the initials stand for.

(A copy of a Non-Enturbulation Order, dated November 29, 1981, was marked as Exhibit No. 33, as of this date.)

MRS. GARVEY: Maybe Mr. Walters knows.

MR. LeCHER: What is enturbulation?

MS. PACE: Enturbulating, that means causing upset, something to that effect. Causing things to not be run smoothly, enturbulation.

Apparently, this guy had been enturbulating his executive. It says he was attacking upstats. That mean when a person has up statistics; he was attacking that somehow, verbally. He was writing false and alarming data about senior executives to other senior executives. And he was to be dealt with with a Suppressive Person Order.


MR. LeCHER: What is a Suppressive Person Order?

MS. PACE: Well, that's an order that comes out that declares you a Suppressive Person and no other Scientologist can communicate with you.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could that person, then, be put in the RPF and —

MS. PACE: Yes, yes.

You're still a Scientologist when you're put on the RPF. When you're declared suppressive —

MR. SHOEMAKER: You're no longer a Scientologist or —

MS. PACE: You can work through the conditions and get back up to being a Scientologist. Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that was still in effect at the time you were a scientologist?

MS. PACE: Yes. Oh, I don't know until two months ago.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But the last time you were here in Clearwater —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — which was — when did you say?

MS. PACE: '79.

MR. LeCHER: Poor Mr. Logan. I hate to do it to him, but I had to enter that into evidence.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:32 pm

Part 4 of 12


MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, you might ask — Mr. Walters is here —

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Walters, would you like to interpret this?

We, frankly — I don't know if I mentioned it — we found this in the public library.

MR. CALDERBANK: What policies come into effect, i.e., the Suppressive Person?

EDWARD WALTERS, a witness herein, having been previously sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. WALTERS: All right.

What this probably is is this young man probably saw something that he didn't agree with: bad living conditions, unkind or criminal actions being done by higher ups. So —

MR. LeCHER: Are you still under oath, sir? Do you consider yourself to be under oath?

MR. WALTERS: Yes. Yes.

So, he wrote — in Scientology, you have to write a chit, meaning you have to write it up. So — because verbally saying it will get him in the same trouble that this will. So, he wrote it up.

It went up to the higher ups. The higher ups saw that he knew about sensitive operations or he was aware of the bad living conditions, et cetera. So, they, as Ron says, attack him.

And this is very heavy on an individual because, if he's been in a long time and working fourteen, fifteen hours a day, he is told that if he continues this, attacking the people who are clearing the planet, he will be made a suppressive.

The Suppressive Order is put out legally like this, but this Scientologist knows that he is now ready for Fair Game; anything could happen to him. He will get this and quickly be glad to do any condition they give him. And he will be a good boy after this.

MRS. GARVEY: Some of the conditions that would be given would be what?

MR. WALTERS: Enemy, Treason —

MRS. GARVEY: Some of the conditions he would go through to come back into Scientology?


He will have to — if he's lucky, he'll go in the RPF. He won't consider it lucky when it happens, but —


MR. WALTERS: Because the Suppressive Order is the highest thing that can happen to you. The damage to the mind is much more severe than —

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Walters, who would that have been signed by, those codes?

MR. WALTERS: Yes, they did this to me.


I mean, who would — what would that represent, the name — in terms of at the bottom with the code? Who is that?

MR. WALTERS: All right.

"Authorized by AVC," which is Authorization Verification Committee, "for the Board of Directors for the Church of Scientology." This is the people that none of us in Scientology know even who they are. It was put in when the government started — wanted L. Ron Hubbard to show up. So, it appears now that he's not involved in it. The Board of Directors do all these things.

This is also sent worldwide, which means he's not safe anywhere.

MR. LeCHER: I have another piece of — that I'd like to introduce as evidence. It' s rather hard for me to read because it's very light — a light copy, but I will.

Committee of Evidence as relates to Jim Logan. "A Committee of Evidence is hereby convened on interested party Jim Logan. Data to hand is that Jim has been enturbulating execs in the IMC by spreading false reports since he has returned from his extensive leave approximately three weeks ago.

"Jim had an approved three-week leave to pretend to record an album with the band, Future Track, in the LA area. Jim did return from his leave on time and was eventually petitioned to extend the leave for an additional period. This was approved, but it does not override the fact that he was off post legally with an undetermined quail MSV.

"His production has been reported to be approximately one-quarter of that of other Cramming Officers in Qual," Q-u-a-l, "over the last ten days. He has also reported to HCO a few days ago that he was going to rout out of the SO and demanded a Leaving Staff Routing Form, but later changed his mind. He had refused to write OWs or do conditions of any kind.

"Charges: Placing Scientology or Scientologists at risk; two, permitting a section unit department organization zone division to collapse; three, overworking an executive by ignoring one's duties; four, neglect of responsibilities resulting in catastrophe even when another manages to avert the final consequences; five, harmful, flagrant, and continued code break resulting in important upsets; six, knowingly giving false testimony to imperil Scientologists; seven, engaging in malicious rumor-mongering to destroy the authority or repute the higher officers and the leading names of Scientology or to safeguard a position." That's the set of charges.

Then it says, "The Committee: Chairman, Sonia Cavella; Secretary, Rusty Hilton; Member, Karen Spencer; Member, Eric Main," M-a-i-n. "The Committee is to look into the crimes above and any others that have been committed. They are here to fully look into this matter with the full sense of HCO, PLO, Look on, Don't Listen, and other applicable PLs on Committees of Evidence in Volume I and elsewhere. Findings and recommendations are to be submitted to the convening authority within seven days."

It's again signed, PO 3 Eric Knutsom, INR," et cetera, et cetera, "Board of Directors to the Church of Scientology International."

I introduce this into evidence.

(A copy of a Committee of Evidence report was marked as Exhibit No. 34, as of this date.)

MR. CALDERBANK: So, it's late 1981 and they're still declaring Suppressive Persons, Mayor?

MR. LeCHER: This was found in the public library.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know when, Mayor?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Around the first of the year.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:32 pm

Part 5 of 12


ROSIE PACE, Resumed.

MR. LeCHER: Do you want to comment on any of this? Do you know anything about this?

MS. PACE: You want me to comment about —

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

We don't really understand what this is all about or whether we should, but we're giving it to you as evidence for whatever it's worth.

MS. PACE: Well, what they have here is a list of charges to declare this person suppressive. That's basically what it is. It's hard to go over the whole thing and —

MR. LeCHER: Well, okay.

MR. FLYNN: Maybe Mr. Walters would like to explain a little bit of it, Mayor.
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