The impulse to believe the absurd when presented with the unknowable is called religion. Whether this is wise or unwise is the domain of doctrine. Once you understand someone's doctrine, you understand their rationale for believing the absurd. At that point, it may no longer seem absurd. You can get to both sides of this conondrum from here.


Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:33 pm

Part 6 of 12



MR. LeCHER: As I said, it's a very light copy, Mr. Walters, but hopefully you can read most of it.

MRS. GARVEY: What is —

MR. WALTERS: It's a standard comment, meaning Committee of Evidence for a — we've seen lots of these. These are the standard charges taken out of the Book of Ethics and Policies, because he's probably criticized the upper seniors. So, now he's guilty of suppressing Scientology.

I might mention one thing, only because of my experience in the Guardian's Office. It looks very real and everything, but be careful for dead agenting, meaning something that is sent to you — and this guy may not even exist. It does look real because I — I mean, this is the standard copy.

But just be careful. You're dealing with a very clever outfit. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.

Dead agenting means that they all know you're doing an investigation. So, they will send one of your Commissioners a letter by a so-called Scientologist. And that Scientologist will meet with you and you'll bring him to the hearings, and he will turn you around just as that guy from El Salvador just turned the government around. It's called dead agenting. And then, of course, you will not be believed.

It comes from the — as Ron told us on tapes, it comes from the early days when an agent would tell the king something and, then, they'd find out he was lying and they'd kill the agent. So, if you give a guy false information and you find it false, Mayor, then, you wouldn't talk to that fellow again, would you?

So, I — just be careful of that. This is a very intelligent operation.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Who would that normally be distributed to, Mr. Walters?

MR. WALTERS: This goes worldwide: to every org. and mission in the world.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But would an individual member see that or —

MR. WALTERS: Oh, yes. This is how they know to stay away from him, do not talk to him. He will be treated very degradedly. And he will quickly want to do the conditions and praise Hubbard forever.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:33 pm

Part 7 of 12


ROSIE PACE, Resumed.

MR. LeCHER: One more question: Didn't it occur to you that the education — being a young woman yourself, and at thirteen, didn't it occur to you that this is wrong to have a young — an organization to have a group of their youth being functional illiterates?

MS. PACE: Yes.

Up until a few years ago, I really didn't think about it. I thought Scientology was the most important thing you could do. And I didn't believe that education was harmful, but I thought Scientology was more important.

But recently, I've been looking and I've seen Lori's little girl, my niece. And she is — she's going through what I'm — what I had gone through, catching up on work and — just because of a Scientology school, that now she has to go back two grades when she's a brilliant child.

So, now, it makes absolutely no sense. It's harmful. You know, I believe in education.

MR. LeCHER: When did you first think that Mr. — Ron's, as you have referred to him, background was suspect?

MS. PACE: I didn't think about his background up until, maybe, three months ago when I actually saw things. I just knew there were terrible outnesses in the organization, and I knew that — I knew that, he was behind it.

MR. LeCHER: That what was behind it?

MS. PACE: I knew that he was behind it. I just didn't have any proof.

MR. LeCHER: You just didn't question —

MS. PACE: I just thought it was the organization was insane. I thought L. Ron Hubbard didn't know anything about it. This is up until a couple of years

MR. LeCHER: So, until three months ago, you still thought L. Ron Hubbard was a nuclear physicist, an engineer, a war hero —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: — and he cured his own blindness?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Mr. Calderbank.


Hi, Rosie.

MS. PACE: Hello.

MR. CALDERBANK: In your education background, do you — Scientology encouraged you to leave at thirteen —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: — to get out of the public school system?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever give you, after that, any regimented — or any type of education in math, reading, English, literature, anything that you would expect in the New York school system?


MR. CALDERBANK: Is — you also heard Lori's testimony.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: Can you substantiate what she said about her daughter, her test scores, what percentile she's in compared to what she's been able to achieve?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And she also mentioned that Scientology, basically, does not want people to get an education in the public realm.

MS. PACE: Right.

MR. CALDERBANK: Would you say that it's a common policy in Scientology to keep people out of public school to get an education?

MS. PACE: I would say so. They look down on education.

MR. CALDERBANK: In your own personal experience, do you fear for children that enter Scientology that they are not, in your own personal experience, getting the education that's required?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: In auditing — you said you were a very high level auditor.

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: This is one of the largest ways that money comes into the organization?

MS. PACE: Yes, it is.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you said that each person that you audited felt that he or she — their auditing information was confidential?

MS. PACE: Yes, they believed it was confidential.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you believed and they believed, also, that it was based on scientific work and research data?

MS. PACE: I believe so.

MR. CALDERBANK: Well, would any of these people have bought or purchased auditing if they were told that the files would not be confidential?

Ms. PACE: I don't — no.

MR. CALDERBANK: They would not?

MS. PACE: I don't think so.

MR. CALDERBANK: In your opinion —

MS. PACE: In my opinion.

MR. CALDERBANK: — as an experienced auditor and one of the highest auditors that Scientology bestows on someone?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: Have you ever seen a NED for OTs or NOTS rally?



MS. PACE: No. Oh, yes, I have; I'm sorry.


MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you saw the money that would come in for these services?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: If those people found out that Mr. Hubbard spent no years researching, would they spend the twenty-five thousand — up to twenty-five to forty thousand dollars for the courses if they were told that he did no research?

MS. PACE: In my opinion, no.


Would they — if told that he had flunked out of science courses, would they pay this money?

MS. PACE: I don't know. I don't think so.

MR. CALDERBANK: I just want your personal opinion.

MS. PACE: Okay.

MR. CALDERBANK: And did they ever tell you that the auditing would cure your physical headaches?

MS. PACE: Yes.


MS. PACE: I was told, when I joined the Sea Org. three years ago in Los Angeles. I told my recruiter that I get severe headaches. And he said, "Don't worry about it." He said, "NED for OTs handles that right away." He said, "No problem."

So, I joined the Sea Org.

MR. CALDERBANK: So, based on his promise to cure your headaches, you spent the money or gave your work to get into NED for OTs?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever say anything that they could do anything with your eyesight?


MR. CALDERBANK: And you were — when you were — the last area of questioning is: When you were in the Sea Organization and you were being recruited into the organization — I heard testimony that people were told that they would have nice living conditions, they would make up to seven hundred dollars per week.

Did these kinds of ideas go through your mind, at first?

MS. PACE: I couldn't much use these living conditions. I knew that I would be in a dorm. I didn't know that there would be roaches and no air conditioner and ten people in the room. But I knew I would be in a dorm; I thought maybe with three girls.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they tell you that by policy that it would be a type of rigorous, military regimen?

MS. PACE: I knew that before I joined.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any —

MS. PACE: Before I joined the Sea Org., yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Just a few.

Someone that testified earlier, I think, has brought out a point that's been uppermost in my mind, and that is, people that have come forward to this legislative hearing.

What motivated you to come here?

MS. PACE: I believe that people should be told the truth, especially, Scientologists. And I hope they're listening to these hearings.

From personal experience, what I have gone through in the past few months, wanting to leave and thinking that I actually couldn't leave the organization is a horrible feeling. And I've been going through absolute hell these past few months. And I want Scientologists to know that they could speak up; they could give an opinion; they can have their own thoughts; they can do what they want.

That's why I'm here. Including my husband — I want him to — he's been put on the RPF just recently. He called me last week, and he thinks it's great that he's going to be put on the RPF now. And I hate to see these things go on, because I believe that the RPF is a place where you really get brainwashed. You work day and night and you get intense auditing.

That's why I'm here: just to let Scientologists know that they can speak up.

MR. BERFIELD: I — this is a little side issue, but I take it that you and your husband are still in love, then?

MS. PACE: I love my husband.

MR. BERFIELD: A couple of questions: You said that you had taught these auditing courses.

Did you use books in those?

MS. PACE: I have never taught a Scientology course. That was my sister, Lori.

MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever read any of these — just — this Dianetics, have you ever read that?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Just from your own personal experience, having read it previously — and if I understand your testimony that you have given up Scientology —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. BERFIELD: — how much truth or value would you put in this book?

MS. PACE: I haven't seen any truth in the book.

From applying it, from being an auditor, I have never seen someone be cured of an illness in all the experience that I have had.

I wasn't a supervisor. I didn't teach the courses, but I was an auditor for about fifteen years.

MR. BERFIELD: Looking back in retrospect — and I realize, it's hard for you now, but — if you had to define or describe Scientology, how would you describe it?

MS. PACE: As a harmful cult.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you — in their solicitation program for these various courses, is there any deception in it?

MS. PACE: Yes.



I believe they promise things that don't exist in Scientology. That goes as far as auditing and their training.

MR. BERFIELD: On the — I believe you also testified on the children that you did not have much to do with the children over at —

MS. PACE: No, I didn't.

MR. BERFIELD: In reading various documents that you've had there, how would you know personally whether or not they were — for the sake of a better description — corporate documents, something that came down from corporate headquarters or Flag or whatever you wish to call it?

MS. PACE: I'm sorry, I didn't get that.

Well, they have executive courses where you learn policy, and they have technical courses where you learn how to become an auditor. You read the policies, you drill them, you get checked out by your supervisor, and you apply the policy.

MR. BERFIELD: Could the policy be something that Mr. Flynn wrote up or that I wrote up? How would you know that the policy is —

MS. PACE: Well, a Scientologist would never doubt that L. Ron Hubbard wrote it if his name was on it.

Just recently, I believe, people started to suspect that possibly he wasn't writing policy.

MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if I wrote up a policy and wrote "Hubbard" on it that you all would have believed it at that time?

MS. PACE: Well, I couldn't answer that. It would depend on what — well, policies are written in a certain way. L. Ron Hubbard has a way of writing things that's very similar. So, I guess you would know by that.

MR. BERFIELD: But if it had his name on it, it was gospel?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Berfield, I might — I've just — I might help on this.

Could you explain what an HCO is?

MS. PACE: An HC — what is —

MR. SHOEMAKER: Hubbard Coordinating Officer?

MS. PACE: Hubbard Communications Office?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, in terms of where the documents come from that you've been referring to. I mean, it comes from there —

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — I understand that.

MR. BERFIELD: You mentioned, I believe, also, too, that you have audited hundreds of thousands of people.

MS. PACE: Yes, thousands of people.

MR. BERFIELD: Thousands.

Did you at any time ever tell them that what they were doing really wasn't going to help them?


MR. BERFIELD: Did you believe that, that it was going to help them?

MS. PACE: Yes, I did.

MR. BERFIELD: And if I understand your testimony now, you say that, in your own mind, it would not help them?


MR. BERFIELD: Your sister — you were talking about her being blown.

Do you know for a fact how she returned to Clearwater? By that, I mean —let me clarify that. Was she brought back under force or —

MS. PACE: No, she wasn't; no.

MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever had any contact with anyone who had blown, personal contact?


MR. BERFIELD: Just one last question here or two: I believe you also testified that you were told that — someone told you that auditing or something cou1d help you with your headaches?

MS. PACE: Yes.

MR. BERFIELD: And you found out that this is not correct, it did not?

MS. PACE: That is not correct.

MR. BERFIELD: Your — again, your reason for not leaving Scientology was all psycho and not physical; is that correct?

MS. PACE: I believe it would have become physical if I tried to leave. They have a practice of stopping people from blowing. But most of it was mental.

I could have left; I could have walked out the door.

MR. BERFIELD: In this thirteen odd years, something had been installed in you — or instilled in you that if you left, you would be forcibly returned?

MS. PACE: I believed that.

MR. BERFIELD: Just one question and — or two — I asked your sister this: In the time you were in Clearwater, there — in your mind there was no one in the City of Clearwater that you felt safe that you could have turned to for help?

MS. PACE: When I was in Clearwater, I was very much a Scientologist, even though this was going on and I was very unhappy. And I would never go to anyone except a Scientologist.

MR. BERFIELD: Could you turn to a physician or a —


MR. BERFIELD: I'll leave you with this one: If you could tell the people of Clearwater and they all could hear you, what would you tell them?

MS. PACE: Well, I think I mentioned it earlier how I feel about Scientology.

When I was in Clearwater at Flag, I hated the city, and I dreaded coming back. And I look at it very different now.

I think Scientology — something should be done about scientology and I'm glad that the hearings are going on. I'm glad the people are hearing the truth of what goes on at the Fort Harrison. That is all.

MR. LeCHER: Before we adjourn — or not adjourn, we bring in the next witness, two quick ones: All the thousands of people you audited, if they knew that Ron's background was suspect, do you think they would have allowed themselves to be audited or spend the money?

MS. PACE: I don't think so.

MR. LeCHER: You mentioned you're married and you love your husband.

When you were married, did you live with him or did you live in a dorm? You mentioned living in a dorm.

MS. PACE: I lived in a dorm when I came to Clearwater; he wasn't with me.

MR. LeCHER: Oh. But you certainly — when you are married, you can live with your husband in —

MS. PACE: Yes, you can.

MR. LeCHER: — in the same room?

MS. PACE: I — yes. I didn't live in the Sea Org. quarters when I was with my husband.

MR. LeCHER: Well, that's it.

Oh, why was your — is your husband in the RFP?

MS. PACE: That's — yeah, the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: The RPF, sorry.

MS. PACE: He called me last week and he —

MR. LeCHER: He called you?

MS. PACE: Yes.

It's known that we are going to get a divorce. He said he couldn't possibly live with me now that I'm not a Scientologist.

And when you're in the Sea Org., you're not allowed to have sexual relations with anyone except your spouse. And he had sexual — sexual relations with someone, and he gave that up at an auditing session. And that was used against him and he was put on the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: You mean, the confessional told that?

MS. PACE: Yes, the confessional.

MR. LeCHER: I think I'd better leave that right where it is.

Thank you for coming and being an excellent witness.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:34 pm

Part 8 of 12


Would you like to bring in the next witness or do you want

MR. FLYNN: David Ray, please.

As a point of information, with regard to the issues that relate to the confidentiality of auditing, at the appropriate time extensive documentation will be put into evidence concerning the use of auditing information by the organization.

MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. Flynn, will any of your witnesses after — who will come up here, after Rosie be high level auditors or trained as auditors to the degree that Rosie and her sister, Lori, have?

MR. FLYNN: There may — I'd have to look through my witness list. There may be one or two more auditors. We've got different people for different purposes. We haven't heard from any real GO people yet, except for Mr. Walters who has knowledge. We haven't heard from administrative people yet.

There may be one or two more who did some auditing, but for the most part we want to get into some of the more Guardian's Office type activities as the hearings progress.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. David Ray.

Will you please be sworn in, sir?

DAVID RAY, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Now, Mr. Ray, I have a few standard questions I must ask, as I ask every witness, sir.

MR. RAY: Okay.

MR. LeCHER: Number one: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than, expenses for coming to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: No, I have not.

MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?

MR. RAY: No, I don't.

MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?

MR. RAY: Not yet.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?

MR. RAY: No, they have not.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Mr. Ray, would you like to make a statement or go through your background or do you want to be led through it?

MR. RAY: I'd like to make a statement.

MR. LeCHER: Certainly. Go ahead.

MR. RAY: Okay.

This began back in about October or November of 1980. I was living in San Diego at the time with my mother and my two sisters.

My mother got into Scientology and —

MR. LeCHER: Will you speak up in order that people in the back of the room can hear you?

MR. RAY: Sure.

MR. LeCHER: How old are you, by the way?

MR. RAY: Eighteen.

MR. LeCHER: Eighteen.

MR. RAY: Back in about November of 1980, my mother started telling us — me and my two sisters — about Scientology, that she had been in it for a while and she was going to start applying the technology in her company. And I didn't think anything of it. And I just said, "Okay. Well, let's see what you got?"

Well, right away it started creating serious conflicts between my mother and my stepfather at the time, her husband. And they started having a lot of fights about it because they had their own company called San Diego Computer Dynamics, which is in San Diego. And so, I was a little bit skeptical about it.

Well, three or four months later, they divorced. And my mother said, "Well, I'd like you to do the purification rundown," which is to clean out your body. And the purification rundown, what you do is you take a lot of vitamins, run one or two miles, then, sit in a sauna and sweat for about five and-a-half hours every day. And it's very rigorous, and very rough.

Well, I went ahead and did it to try and clean out my body and started going down to the organization, the Scientology Organization in San Diego, and checking into courses and so on and so forth. And I took two courses down there, the Communication course and the Essentials of Dianetics Zero down there.

And one of the recruiters in the organization came up to me and said, "Would you like to join staff? You get all your courses and all your training for free." And I was really turned on by what he had to say because it appeared to me to be all logic. The books he had written appeared to me to be all logic and what goes on in your head. And I said, "Okay, terrific."

So, I had plans to join staff March 1st. Well, I did, and started working there. It was — it was pretty easy work, nothing real big to do. I was studying a couple hours a day and I was enjoying myself.

Well, about March 8th, they came to me and said —

MR. LeCHER: What year was this?

MR. RAY: 1981.

About March —

MR. LeCHER: A year ago — a year ago, then.

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: A little over a year ago.

MR. RAY: Okay.

March 8th, 1981, I believe that's the date, my supervisor who was — his name was David Horrigan. He was in charge of Division Six, Public Division in that —

MR. LeCHER: Horgan?

MR. RAY: Horrigan.

MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-g-a-n?

MR. RAY: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.

MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.

MR. RAY: Okay.

He said, "We'd like to post you, put you on a job to fill up our basic course room with public people." And I said, "Okay. What do you want me to do?" He said, "Well, get on the phone and call people. Call your friends, tell them how great Scientology is, and get them in here so we get some money in here." And he says, "If you can do that in four months, we'll, give you any course, any position in this organization you want."

Well, I started and it took me about three days to do it. And that really blew their minds. And at that time there were some Sea Org. recruiters from here, from Clearwater, in the organization looking for people to take to the Sea Org. here in Clearwater. And they saw me and they got a hold of that, and they said, "Ah, we want this guy."

So, they came and they talked to me and — so, they laid out a contract. Now, I'm going to explain to you this contract. It gets very, very personal with your life. They want to know everything about you from when you were born till present day; and they talk to you.

The contract goes like this: They want to know if you've ever taken any drugs, specifically, LSD, okay? They're very concerned about that. If you've taken LSD, they don't want you, okay? They even go as far as to ask you: "Have you had any sexual relationships? How many? With whom? What schools have you gone to through your life? What were your teachers' names? What were your grades? Where have you lived? What were your addresses? How many times were your parents married? If they were divorced, what were their names, what were their addresses? Stepchildren you live with? Friends you had." All those names; they want everything.

And by the way, the contract says, "I join the Sea Org." — when you put your name on it, you join it for a billion years or so it says, which was a little beyond my comprehension.

So, after I had agreed to go into the Sea Organization, I did have some debts. You can't go if you have any debts. All right, you have to do something to pay off your debts. So, I sold my car at the time; I had a jeep and that paid off my debts.

And it took about — from the time I started talking to them till the time I was actually in Clearwater was about thirty-two hours, okay? It was really incredible.

And I arrived here in Clearwater just thinking, "This is going to be great," and I had the feeling I was doing something to the benefit of every person on this planet, okay? And that's what they led me to believe. I want to make this point.

So, I got here. I was — I was allowed to sleep a little bit because I had been traveling all day. They woke me up and they said, "Okay. You have to do a routing form and you have to go meet these people and sign this and sign that. And then, you have twenty-four hours off to go look around the city and do whatever you want." And I said, "Terrific."

So, they woke me up. I got — saw two people on my routing form. All of a sudden, they pulled me in and said, "David, we need you to work." I said, "No problem."

So, I went into the auditorium that they have there and they were setting up an event for March 13th, which is Ron Hubbard's birthday. And I worked and I worked, lifting these platforms. They weigh about three hundred pounds each, okay? And there was me and one girl lifting these. And it was very strenuous.

And this went on for about six or seven hours and I was getting very tired because I hadn't had much sleep. And I says, "Well, can I go finish my routing form, and can I go get some sleep or something? I'm tired; I'm not going to be able to last much longer." Right away, "No, you can't. You have to work because we have to have this done."

MR. LeCHER: Who said, "No," the girl?

Forget the question.

MR. RAY: No. The supervisor at the time, Gary Wasberg is his name, okay? He's the New Staff Control Officer, NSCO abbreviation.

And so, I went ahead and worked, and right away that sent my mind going around and around in circles, thinking "Wait a minute," you know. "Are these guys really for real?" Okay? I had a contract when I came over there. I had been promised things like twenty-five dollars a week to start, okay? I would work about eight hours a day like a normal job, all your training and all your processing, which is auditing, basically, for free.

Well, after that evening — I worked about a total of nine, ten hours that day, the first day — and I went to sleep. The next morning I got up and did the routing form. And by the time I got to the Treasury Department, I found out that until I did what they call Project 0 and Project 1, which entails about twelve courses, long courses, that I was only going to make $9.60 a week. I said, "Wait a minute. This isn't right. This is not what I was told; this is not what I agreed to," okay? And they said, "Well," you know, "we don't know what your recruiter told you, but this is the way it is." So, I had to accept it.

And about day two — when I first came there, they put me in a room by myself, which was really nice and I appreciated that. Day two they said, "Okay, we're going to take you to where you're going to bunk. Now, this is an exec — this is a room for executive people in the Church of Scientology, okay? You're new here, don't talk to them." And I said, "What?" And they said, "Don't talk to them." I said, "Okay."

So, I walked into the room, and when that door opened that was it. The air was so thick and the stench was so bad it just about knocked me over. So, I walked in the room and I was just thinking, "You got to be" —

MR. LeCHER: Thick with what and what kind of stench?

MR. RAY: Body odor.

And I walked in and the room was about twelve feet by sixteen feet, not including the bathroom; there was a small bathroom there which was a mess. But there were four bunks on each side. Eight people in that room had all their clothes, all their belongings in that room. There were boxes with papers, dirty clothes piled up from the ceiling to the floor — floor to ceiling, excuse me, and all over the place and there wasn't much room to move around.

And there were cockroaches — like, I'm from the west coast, and I'd never seen palmetto bugs, and to me that's just a giant cockroach.

MR. LeCHER: They are to us, too, but we call them palmetto bugs; it sounds better.

MR. RAY: So, to get the basics over: When I was first there, I got extremely skeptical about the whole thing, all right? I didn't know what to believe and what not to believe because I had been lied to on five different occasions so far. I didn't know what else was a lie.

So, when they said, "We'd like to put you into an auditing chair and start auditing you," I said, "No way." They said, "Why not?" I said, "Because I keep getting different stories from different people. I've been lied to, and I'm not going to sit there and let you guys do something to me and I don't know what it's all about." I said, "I'll read anything you want me to read, but I won't sit in that chair."

So, they sent me to Ethics. So, I went into Ethics and they said — they have a thing called overts and withholds, all right? And what that is is if you do something —

MRS. GARVEY: Overts and what?

MR. LeCHER: Overts and what?

MR. RAY: Overts and withholds.

MR. LeCHER: Oh, overts —


MR. LeCHER: — and withholds.

MR. RAY: Right.


MR. RAY: Okay?

And overts is when you do something that you know to be against your own ethical code or moral coder okay, and you hold it within your head, okay, and you just keep it there. That's an overt. And withhold is holding it there.

So, they took me in there and said, "Okay. Start writing up all your overts and withholds. We want to know all about it." Okay. So, I started —

MR. LeCHER: That — wait. That may be a belief, and I'm advised it's getting dangerous. So, let's —

MRS. GARVEY: Well, he's just explaining a series of events.

MR. LeCHER: Is it all right, Mr. Flynn? I don't know where it's going to end up.

MR. FLYNN: Go ahead. I think we can go forward. Tell them why — what they told you —

MR. RAY: The reason I was writing up these overts and withholds, they told me, was because I refused their processing. They're not used to that. They —

MR. LeCHER: That may be to the benefit — that may be considered religious. It may be like "What is a sin?" And we don't really want to know what it says.

MR. RAY: Excuse me.

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

MR. RAY: They never indicated to me that it was religious. They never indicated to me that that was a religious belief, okay? From day one, when I got into Scientology, I was instructed that this was — their auditing and their tech — was scientifically proven to work, all right? From day one I was told that, and I was told that all along, okay?

So, I wrote up these overts and withholds and I handed it to the guy that was handling this Ethics Cycle, okay? And he looked at it and he's going, "Okay. Well, you've got to do this and this and this." And what he was telling me was I've got to do work, physical labor. They call it "mest work." M-e-s-t stands for matter, energy, space, and time, okay? So, I had to do physical labor.

So, they said, "We're going to put you in the housekeeping section." So, they put me in the housekeeping section, gave me a cart, you know, and loaded it all up. I had to go clean public rooms.

Well, when I first started, they gave me a whole floor to do by myself, which is about, oh, I'd say, thirty-one, thirty-two rooms, all right? I — "How do you expect me to finish these?" Okay. And they said, "Well, you're one of the top beings on this planet. That's why you're here, and you've got to do it." I said, "You've got to be kidding."

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, please. It may be humorous, but we don't want to laugh and make a circus of these hearings. This is important and we want to keep some decorum.

Yes, Mr. Ray.

MR. RAY: Okay, well, I gave it my best shot. I finished it; it took me about, oh, twelve, thirteen hours. And it was very hard on me physically, because the weather here in Florida gets incredibly hot. There's no air conditioning in the building. In the public rooms, they had small air conditioners, okay, but none in the hallways and so forth. There is no air conditioning.

It's a regular hotel room, the public rooms.

MR. LeCHER: So, public rooms are hotel rooms?

MR. RAY: Yeah, they're regular hotel rooms.

MRS. GARVEY: For people who come to —

MR. LeCHER: That's a public —

MRS. GARVEY: As opposed to a staff member?

MR. RAY:Yeah, as opposed to a —

MR. LeCHER: They clean in the restaurants and —

MR. RAY: Right. Staff members work and run the hotel, okay, and deliver the processing and training. The public are the ones that they have come in and get the money from.

MR. LeCHER: Can the public go in those rooms? We, the public.

MRS. GARVEY: Can we, the general public, walk through —

MR. LeCHER: Can we, the public, walk into those public rooms?

MR. RAY:They claim you can, okay? They claim that any public person, anybody off the street, can walk in, look around like a regular hotel. But I have found that not to be true.

I was friends with the security guard down at the front door; his name was Alex — I don't remember his last name. And somebody came by off the streets, was just looking around, and read "A Religious Retreat for the Church of Scientology." He wanted to go and look around. Well, they quickly — him, and they called another security guard, grabbed him on each arm and escorted him out very quickly. And that's the story about looking around. But — okay.

MR. LeCHER: Continue, then, with your travelogue.

MR. RAY: Okay.

So, then — instead of going into real big detail on this anymore — after working and doing all these rooms that I was required to do — and I did get them done and I did work hard — they promoted me, okay? And I was in charge of the housekeeping services for all of the hotel.

And what they didn't tell me was — they said, "Well, yeah, you re going to be able to tell these people, what to do." I thought I was going to sit down and do paperwork, okay? Well, no. My rooms — my room quota each day went from thirty-two to seventy-eight, okay?

MR. LeCHER: That's a promotion.

MR. RAY: That's a promotion.

So, they have — on the contract, they say, "If your statistics are up" — let me — let me explain that. Every time you clean a room, you leave a little piece of paper in there that says my name, you know, "I'm your housekeeper," and there's numbers by these words. One says, "Incredible," you know, "Okay, Good, Bad, Terrible," and they've got to circle a number by the word that they feel how the room was cleaned, okay? Well, you pick these up each day and drop them off. And that's how they calculate your statistics; you add up the numbers, divided by the numbers that you have, and there's your number, okay? It's on average.

Well, if your statistics are up, every two weeks you're supposed to have twenty-four hours off, called liberty. It's more like the Navy than anything else. Well, since they were shorthanded, I would keep asking them for my time off because I was working, oh, anywhere from eighteen to twenty hours a day. I wasn't getting much sleep; I was very tired all the time. And they wouldn't give it to me. They said, "No. We can't — we can't afford to let you go. These rooms won't get clean."

Well, I wanted the rooms to get clean and I wanted to be able — the public, you know, to have what they're paying for. So, I went ahead and did it. Well, that went on for about nine weeks, okay?

And one day I said, "Uh-huh, I'm leaving." And I took off. I took my day off. I just went down to the beach and slept on the beach, walked around, got a suntan. And when I came back, oh-oh. They were angry with me. They said, "David, you're going to have to go to Ethics and write up your overts and withholds again." So, I did that.

The thing that — the thing that really kills me about this whole — this whole operation is they — by the questions they ask and the things they do, they open you up to your innermost personal self, okay? And as I'm sure all of you have done at one time or another, opened yourself up, you're extremely vulnerable, all right? They'll pick you up and they'll raise you so high you feel like you're on top of the world and, then, they'll drop you and they'll let you feel like a bottomless pit, all, right? And those are the kinds of terror and searing emotions that go through a person's mind when they're there, okay?

They want to leave; they want to help themselves. You get physically tired. Sometimes, you don't even have time to take a shower. Ninety percent of the people that walk around there just — they stink; they're not clean, okay? The people there are not clean. The building is not clean. The building is an extreme fire hazard, okay? They have boxes stacked up all over the place. Out in the garage they have old furniture just dumped out there, mattresses piled up, or they had this when I was there, all right? And if that would have been ignited, there would have been a lot of people killed, a lot of people. They have a very old fire alarm system.

They told us there as staff members, if you saw a fire somewhere, run down to reception, let them know. They've got to run around behind — there's a reception room. They had to go around behind it, flip the switch for the alarm system, get on the phone and call the fire department, all right?

Well, two things: Number one, they only had one elevator in operation at that time; they had three elevators there. It's certainly slow and certainly crowded, okay, because you're talking about — at the Fort Harrison itself — about four hundred staff members and three hundred public, okay? That's seven hundred people. And — with one elevator in operation.

So, if you saw a fire, it was quicker to run down the stairs. Well, that still takes time. Hypothetical situation: If a fire would have broken out on the seventh floor — there's ten floors — my guess is that that seventh floor and the floor above it, the eighth floor, would have been an inferno by the time that alarm would have been set off, okay, for the amount of steps.

Also, they packed people that were coming in — they sent — they have people come in here to Clearwater from organizations and missions all over the world to do what's called the Flag Executive Briefing Course, FEBC for short. And it was supposed to help them to go back to their own organizations and get more people into the organization, therefore, bring in more money. This was all based on money, okay? "How much income we could get."

Every week, when we had a staff meeting, "How much money did we get?" That was the first thing; everything was secondary to that, all right?

Well, as these students came in, a guy that I bunked with was in charge of putting these people in their rooms. His name was Mike Gravell; he's the Commanding Officer of Area Estates Org. And he was putting in a room, twelve by sixteen, twenty-five people to one room and all of their belongings.

MR. LeCHER: Twenty-five — twelve by sixteen?

MR. RAY: Yes. Twenty-five people —

MR. LeCHER:In this city?

MR. RAY: In this city.

MR. LeCHER: In the Fort Harrison?

MR. RAY: In the Fort Harrison.

MR. LeCHER: What floor?

MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth.

MR. LeCHER: Third, fourth, and fifth. Have you got that, Mr. Shoemaker?

MR. RAY: This began in the beginning of May and was really starting to get going when I left, okay? And my guess is that it's going on now just as strong as ever.

MR. LeCHER:Third, fourth, and fifth?

MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth floors.

MR. LeCHER: How many restrooms to twenty-five people?

MR. RAY: One.

MR. LeCHER: One.

So, there's just no way you can all possibly take a shower, then. So, no wonder, your original statement is probably correct.


You had to take — I walked into the rooms occasionally to take pillows out of the rooms because we didn't have enough for the public people, so I would have to take them away from the staff.

Well, I looked on back of the door and they had what's called a shower schedule. They started at six-thirty. The first person went from six-thirty to six-thirty-five; second person from six-thirty-five to six-forty, okay, ongoing — five-minute showers up to max limit — maximum.

MR. LeCHER: If someone took ten, it would ruin the whole train.

MR. RAY: If someone took ten, they'd —

MRS. GARVEY: He'd get killed.

MR. RAY: Yeah, about five and-a-half, somebody else would go in there and just yank him out.

MR. LeCHER: Okay. Continue.

MR. RAY: Well, what was going on through my mind the whole time I was there, okay, is "If we're really supposed to be helping clear this planet, okay, and we're supposed to be benefitting everyone on this planet, why are, we only dealing with the people that have money and lots of it," okay? And I would ask these questions and I would get no answers, or no straight answers anyway.

But I would notice from dealing with the public — and I dealt with every public person who came in and out of that building, all right — that people that were there trying to get their training and processing to help themselves and didn't have a whole lot of money would get treated very badly. And they would. And the people that came in there and had a whole lot of money and they were there just spending money and showing off, you know, whatever they — they like to show off; they like to flash their money. Those are the people that would get special attention, okay?

And I was always getting instructions down from the Accommodations Counselor to take care of these people that had these big, fancy rooms and had lots of money, you know, do anything they wanted to do, okay? And we'd be moving refrigerators in and out of there with no dollies, me and one other guy. We'd carry them up and down the stairs. What does a refrigerator weigh, about three hundred pounds? Okay.


MR. RAY: And beds the same way, okay, up and down stairs, no dollies. This — on and on like this. And I put in, like I said, eighteen, twenty hours a day.

And I'd complain about it and they'd give me a bad time.

Another thing that really bothered me. When I was in that room, I was what they considered a peon, since I was brand new to the Sea Org., okay? All those executives I lived with felt like they were high and mighty, and they just loved to pick on me, okay, because I asked them questions. And they would pick on me.

Well —

MR. LeCHER: What questions would you ask them?

MR. RAY: Oh, I asked them questions about the money: how much money was coming in and out each week; what kind of jobs they did, what their jobs entailed. I wanted to know all I could. How come — "How come you guys aren't out there picking up the people on the streets that don't have any money, okay, and showing them how to make some money so they can do something with themselves," okay? Stuff like that.

MR. LeCHER: How did they pick on you?

MR. RAY: Well, I'd be sitting in the chair, watching television, which was my favorite thing to do if — any time off I had; I didn't sleep very much. And they'd walk in there and pick me up out of the chair and put me in another one and say, "I want this chair because it's right in front of the TV set, and you can't say nothing about it." And I'd say., "Oh, yeah?" Well, me, you know, I'm — I've got a fuse about that long, okay? And I'd say something back and they'd strike at me, okay?

And I got into four physical fights on four different occasions, one of which I was trying to leave and take some time off, and he just hauled off and punched me because he didn't know any better way to stop me.

MR. LeCHER: He — you wanted to leave? You wanted liberty, again?

MR. RAY: Yes, I wanted to leave and —

MR. LeCHER: And he wanted to keep you in the Fort Harrison Hotel?

MR. RAY: Yeah.

I wanted to leave and go down to the beach and get some sleep. I could not sleep in that room. There were bugs crawling all over the place; it smelled real bad.

One night — I was told by the guys in the room it was a wolf spider — but one night I was laying there and I kept feeling these little bites on my body. I didn't know what it was, these little sharp pain things. And so, I got up pretty early and decided to take a shower, walked in, looked down, and the whole side of my body was covered with blood. And so, I washed it off and looked, and there were a whole bunch of little bumps on my body. So, I walked back over to my bed real quick, flipped back the covers, and there was this huge, brown spider. And I smashed it, to say the least.

So, I went to the Medical Officer, and I started running a fever. And I — and there was no way I could work. I needed to lay down and get some sleep. So, I went in there, and he said, "What kind of overts and withholds do you have about spiders?" Sick. And I said, "Well, I just need to relax. Can I see a doctor?" And he said, "No, you can't see a doctor." And he says, "Anyway, can you afford it? How much money do you have?" I said, "Well, I have about five dollars." He says, "Well, we don't pay for your doctor's expenses. That's something you're going to have to save for if you want to see a doctor." Okay. "What we can do" —

MR. LeCHER: And you were making 8.60 a week at this time?

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.

MR. LeCHER: Nine-sixty.

MR. RAY: And it — later on, it increased to twelve dollars, but not during the time that I got sick. Just about two months before I left, it went up to twelve dollars and that's as high as it got.

So, the Medical Officer, he would not — and his name is Gary Pippenburg.

MR. LeCHER: Gary Pippenburg?

MR. RAY: Yes.

He — at that time. He — I think, P-i-p-p-e-n-b-u-r-g, Pippenburg.

And he wouldn't do anything for me. And he said — he says, "Well, why don't you go talk to your supervisor. See if you can get some time off to lay down."

I went to talk to my supervisor and the second I — that I mentioned that I was sick, okay, he got extremely violent in his tone of voice to me and started yelling at me and screaming at me, saying, you know, "Don't get sick. We need you to work. You can't have any time off, period. There's no way we're going to let you have any time off." And I just said, "Wait a minute."

I was just too tired to argue. So, I would go up with my cart, like I was cleaning rooms, and I would open up one of the rooms that was empty and I'd lay down and go to sleep. I was just so tired; There was — I could barely carry myself up the stairs, just barely make it. And I'd go in there and go to sleep. And I did that several times. And eventually — this was right before I left — I wound up in the RPF, Rehabilitation Project Force. And was I in for a surprise.

What it is is a group of people that have done something, what they consider, against the Church of Scientology, okay? The Rehabilitation Project Force is the last thing they do to try to save your being before they kick you out, okay? And I was scared to death to be kicked out, because me, along with everybody else who's there, has a basic need inside to do something good for somebody else, okay? And we were led to believe that we were doing something good for a whole lot of people, and — we didn't want to lose that. I didn't want to lose that. So, I said, "Okay. I'll go into the RPF."

So, I went in there. And basically, what it is is emptying all the garbage out of the restaurants, okay? Restaurant garbage is wet; it's old food; it's got flies and all kinds of bugs crawling around in it. And we would pick up the cans, take them down to the garbage dump, dump them into the garbage dump. And then, at the end of the day, we'd have to go in there in our shoes and stomp it down.

And I don't know what kind of diseases we were exposed to, but we were getting some really weird ones, okay?

MR. LeCHER: Get inside the dumpster and stomp it?

MR. RAY: Yeah. It just literally — I mean —

MR. LeCHER: It was too small or was that punishment?

MR. RAY: No. The dumpster was too small.

And you'd get inside there and this restaurant garbage would be just like quicksand. You'd go all the way to the bottom. You'd be, you know, more than waist deep in this stuff, all right, and it smelled awful. And then, you'd have to go back and clean up, okay?

And the food that they served the RPFers was just rotten. They served all the leftovers after all of the staff on the whole base, all the buildings, ate, okay? Then, we ate alone, whatever was left over. And it wasn't very good. And it didn't give us the nourishment that we needed to keep our bodies going.

MR. LeCHER: What would your typical diet consist of after — the leftovers?

MR. RAY: Good grief. It would be pieces — sometimes, pieces of meat, pieces of beef or chicken or pork, usually a salad and a drink. But the salad was wilted and it smelled rotten, like, it had been — you know, somebody had dumped sour milk on it. The cheese was no good. It was all molded, but molded to the point it was fuzzy, you know, like a peach.

And one time they had french fries there, and I picked up a handful of french fries and started eating them and I found a french fried palmetto bug in my french fries. And I wondered how many I had eaten, you know, when I saw that one. So, I threw that out.

So, my diet, my personal diet — I'd run across the street and get myself a handful of cookies, and that's basically what I lived on, cookies, because that's the only decent thing that they had to eat, in my opinion.

MR. LeCHER: Where did you get the cookies?

MR. RAY: There's a little health food store across the street from the Fort Harrison, right across the street.

MR. LeCHER: Well, for 9.60 a week, I guess that's all you could eat.

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty a week, I had to skimp a — well, I smoke, okay, and I was smoking when I was there. Nine-sixty a week will buy a carton of cigarettes and maybe a tube of toothpaste, and that's it, not counting soap, shampoo, any toiletries that you needed. If your shoes wore out, you're going to have to get yourself a new pair of shoes. If your pants wore out, you'd have to get yourself a new pair of pants. And this just doesn't cover it.

MR. LeCHER: Did you have family money that could support you in this cause that you were involved in?

MR. RAY: Yes, ray mother and my two sisters who are still members of the Church of Scientology.

And I would like to — I have a couple of things say about that. The biggest conflict I had coming over here from the west coast to give my testimony is that my to mother and my two sisters are still involved in the Church of Scientology. My mother is doing Advanced Enlightenment courses. My sister is in the Sea Organization in Hollywood/Los Angeles, okay? And my youngest sister, Jennifer, who's fourteen, is living, you know, at one of their hotels there called The Manor, and she has not even gone to school this year, okay, because they keep putting into her mind that schools are no good. "You want Ron Hubbard's technology. That's all you want, that's all you need. We'll graduate you," okay?

But what really bothers me is that that, aside from my mother, is my whole family, okay? And this is going to be publicized within the Church of Scientology, and I'm going to lose that after today, all right? And that just tears me apart. That's my family, okay?

This is — this is the Church of Scientology's advanced attack, whatever, is that they — they attack you on a personal level, okay? And that's the greatest attack anybody could ever do is when they attack you on a personal level. They could come up and punch you in the mouth. Sure, it's going to sting for a while. And if any of you have ever broken up with your girlfriend, you know that hurts for a while. That hurts a lot longer than a punch in the mouth, okay? And that's the way they attack you.

All right.

MR. LeCHER: You've said so much, I —

MR. RAY: I'd like the opportunity to say something about the Guardian's Office.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the Guardian's Office.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Every two weeks on Sunday a representative from the Guardian's Office Worldwide, which is here in Clearwater — I'm not sure where; I believe it's in Clearwater Building, up around LRH personal office.

MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater — the old bank, Clearwater Building.

MR. RAY: Yeah. It's on the corner of Fort Harrison and Cleveland.

All right.

We had one briefing that I specifically remember, and a specific case that we were told about.

Do you. remember this big thing about Jonestown, the Guyana cult?

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Well, they stated to us that they had done research into what happened there and that it was the U.S. government that poisoned them with nerve gas, put cyanide in the punch to make it look like that, just to scare away Scientology. Okay. We were informed that, led to believe that, and that was just pounded into our heads. So, our feelings about the U.S. government were not too good.

MR. HATCHETT: How old were you when you were in Clearwater?

MR. RAY: I was seventeen years old at the time I was there.

MR. LeCHER: You were seventeen at the time?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Have you ever graduated from high school?

MR. RAY: Yes, on the CHSPE, California High School Proficiency Examination.

MR. LeCHER: Well, you seem like a very bright young man and a very ambitious young man and a very gutsy guy to do what you've done and get out and to take the chance to lose your family, and I believe that to be true.

Do you have any fears that your mother and sisters may be given special duties to —

MR. RAY: Well —

MR. LeCHER: — because of this?

MR. RAY: — it's possible. I don't really want to say because I don't know, okay?

The church of Scientology doesn't scare me to the point where I'm afraid of physical harm, okay? But they do scare me in the fact that L. Ron Hubbard got so many people, in the millions, okay, into this Scientology organization. Each and every Sea Org. member is being trained with LRH technology to understand and to think like him, okay?

L. Ron Hubbard got all these millions of people into this cult. As these people grow and develop in the technology, can you imagine what two thousand L. Ron Hubbards are going to do?

MR. LeCHER: Do you think, then, that they promoting and conceiving junior L. Ron Hubbards, future L. Ron Hubbards? Is that what you're saying?

MR. RAY: Each and every Sea Org. member is a future L. Ron Hubbard, each and every one.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the children. I have here nursery with ten — with five and ten children playing on the floor and somebody — were there minors that were staying in Clearwater against their parents' wishes?

MR. RAY: Yes, one specific that I know of.

MR. LeCHER: Tell me, specifically, what you know.

MR. RAY: Her name was Nadine Meader, M-e-a-d-e-r. She was thirteen years old at the time I was there. And one night she came to talk to me because we were friends, we worked in the same organization. She was crying because her parents had sent her a little nasty letter about how they don't like the Church of Scientology, and the second half of it was very long on how they want her back.

Well, she had shown that to a lady by the name of Laurie Englehart, who was the Commanding Officer of Public Estates Organization, okay? And she had given her a lecture about how great Scientology is and how much better off Scientology was than her parents. She was just in tears; she didn't know what to do. It was tearing her in half.


How did she get there in the first place at thirteen?

MR. RAY: I never found that out.

My guess is this: They do send out missions, okay, with Sea Org. missionaires on recruiting missions. And they go out; they go all over the world, okay, and they find people and they talk to people. They'll talk to anybody. They'll talk to somebody off the streets, okay, and try to recruit them into the Church of Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: It's just amazing to me how a child can get involved. How would she be there against their wishes? I mean, she's thirteen, without her parents' consent, they want her back, they want her home, yet, she's forced to stay there.

Is she still there today to your knowledge or has she left?

MR. RAY: To my knowledge, she's still there. The reason that she's there — the reason you feel the pressure is because they tap on that piece that's inside of every one of us —

MR. LeCHER: Everybody has a button?

MR. RAY: — to do good, okay? There's a part of us in every one of us that wants to do some good for other people, all, right? And they pull on that, and they tug it, and they twist it around and turn it upside down till you don't know which way is up, all right? And that's why you feel like, if you leave, you're going to be condemned forever, okay. That's the way they make you feel.

You feel like, if you leave, you're going to be condemned forever. So, you don't want to leave no matter how bad it gets.

MR. LeCHER: Tell me about the Cadet Org.

MR. RAY: All I know about the Cadet Org. is that there are — they are minors that are in that org. They're — what they consider minors is anybody under sixteen. If you're over sixteen, you've got to work like a regular staff member.

But they would do physical labor, hard physical labor. They'd rotate from building to building and do odd jobs. And they'd play video games all night. They'd come back — they'd get off work about four-thirty, and there they'd be until two o'clock in the morning playing video games. No schooling.

MR. LeCHER: Well, video games, are they being — do you put a quarter in them or are they —

MR. RAY: You put a quarter in them.

MR. LeCHER: So, the children — the children have to get — we worry about their license because we have to license those machines in the City of Clearwater. And apparently, we didn't even know they had video games.

Are there video games in the Fort Harrison Hotel?

MR. RAY: Yeah. They're in the Lemon Tree Restaurant.

MR. LeCHER: At 8.60 a week —

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.

MR. LeCHER: — 9.60, you really can't play many games a quarter —

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: — all that long.

MR. CALDERBANK: Unless you're good.

MR. LeCHER: Unless you're good, as Mr. Calderbank says.

Twenty percent of the staff are, under twenty years old; is that — or about twenty years old?

MR. RAY: Yes. There are about — there are some staff members, Fred Hodgekinson is one and Ernie — I don't remember his last name — but they work in the Engineering Department, and they do physical labor, and they're about seventy years old, all right? And they give these guys auditing and processing, you know, to help — they've got arthritis, okay?

One of them's got some serious back problems. Well, they tell them that through this auditing, they'll cure that so they can go ahead and work. And they push them just as hard as they push anybody else. And I've seen them collapse twice.

MR. LeCHER: The older people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: If someone wanted to go there from California or from Clearwater for that matter and had money, a known money person, what would it cost them to stay at the Fort Harrison Hotel with meals?

MR. RAY: With —

MR. LeCHER: Or without meals, however they charge.

MR. RAY: Okay.

With meals, with their room, and with their training or their processing, because that's why they're there, it would come out to an average of a hundred dollars a day or more —

MR. LeCHER: That's —

MR. RAY: That's very conservative. Per person, okay. And there is an average of three hundred people there at any one given time, public paying.

MR. LeCHER: How many?

MR. RAY: Three hundred.

MR. LeCHER: Three hundred.

What about poor people that are motivated but just don't have the money?

MR. RAY: They leave them alone.

MR. LeCHER: What about blacks, minorities? Do they cater to minority people?

MR. RAY: Yes, they do. It's — there's not much racial prejudice —

MR. LeCHER: They do not discriminate?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: But they do accept you if you're black?

MR. RAY: Well, I have only seen two black people there, and no other race is there except for white people, so I think, maybe, they're a little bit smarter than we are.

MR. CALDERBANK: In other words, you're saying they're street wise to the scam?

MR. RAY: What's that?

MR. CALDERBANK: They're street wise?

MR. HATCHETT: Street wise we call it. Street wise, w-i-s-e.

MR. RAY: Okay. Explain it, please.

MR. HATCHETT: Street wise means, you just don't go for the con games so fast, you can see through it.

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to this now.

Were efforts made to keep city inspectors from observing these things that exist, like overcrowding, filth, staff quarters? Were efforts made to keep inspectors from seeing staff accommodations and the antiquated fire alarm systems?

MR. RAY: Yes, they were.

MR. LeCHER: How do they do something —

MR. RAY: Just a moment. Let me say one more thing about the GO while it's fresh in my mind.

They would go around to the newsstands and buy up the newspapers and burn them if there were any articles against Scientology in them so that we would not see them, okay?

Now, I got my hands on one while I was there. It was an article called "Suetology." I don't know who it was written by, but the head of this Suetology, his name was L. Ron Blubbard, okay? It was really cute. And I showed that around, and I got in a lot of trouble for it, a lot of trouble. And that almost put me in the RPF right there for doing that.

As far as the inspector comes — somehow, the Public Estates Org., through someone, got some information that there was going to be a surprise inspection on the Fort Harrison Hotel, and there was an all out effort made to get it cleaned up. Every staff member in their spare time, even while they were working, would get out there and move the stuff around, clean it up, and hide it. They couldn't get rid of it, so they had to hide it.

So, they'd put it in rooms and storerooms, lock it up, and make the keys disappear so — like, they didn't have the keys to them or something. I'm not really sure on the details.

MR. LeCHER: Do you think someone in one of our offices could be tipping off?

MR. RAY: It's a definite possibility. I wouldn't put it past them.

MR. LeCHER: I know that we do try and go up the street so we don't appear like we're harassing them. So, it could have been that we started at one end of the block and they observed us. Of course, day-to-day inspections is something the Manager may want to know more about than me.

Commissioners, we've been — all right.

How many regular staff do you have?

MR. RAY: In all the buildings combined, which includes the Fort Harrison, the Clearwater Bank Building, the Quality Inn, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and Mimeo, which is just down the Street from the Clearwater Bank Building, there's about eight hundred to a thousand.


MR. RAY: Staffers.

MR. LeCHER: But staff, primarily, lives in the Fort Harrison?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: Is —

MR. RAY: It's divided up into thirds: the Fort Harrison, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and the Quality Inn.

MR. LeCHER: Are — oh, a third, a third, a third?

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: So, if you wanted — does it cost more to go to the Sandcastle than the Fort Harrison? I mean, it's a newer building.

MR. RAY: I'm not really sure on price. I know that the public —

MR. LeCHER: Are they all as overcrowded: the Sandcastle, the —

MR. RAY: No. The Sandcastle is relatively empty, okay, because they don't like having to stay at the Sandcastle. They would — the public, the guests, would rather be at the Fort Harrison.

And there are some real serious conflicts that go on about that.

MR. LeCHER: Why?

MR. RAY: Well, people will call in advance and book reservations for a room, okay? Well, if somebody's got more money than they do and decided they want that room, the Accommodations Counselor will give them that room. And so, when people finally do get here, their reservations are no longer for the room that they asked for. And there are some serious conflicts that occur because of that.

And I would sit down and I would talk with these people, these public people, okay? And I would just sit down and listen to their problems. All I was was a couple of ears, all right? Because nobody else would do that, nobody, or not that I knew of, all right? And this way I had a lot of information about what's happening with the public, about how they were being treated. And there were a lot of complaints.

And anytime they complained about something in their room or something that had to do with their room, it was instantly put on my shoulders and I had to handle it, I had to deal with it.

MR. LeCHER: What kind of complaints did you have and how did you handle them?

MR. RAY: Well, we had complaints like: "I didn't get the room that I asked for?" "I asked for a refrigerator; I don't have one." Just basic stuff like that. They asked for something that they didn't get. Those type of complaints.

So, what I would have to do is try to find something, either what they specifically asked for or something to substitute it in the best way I could.

MR. LeCHER: Commissioners, we could go on with this young man for a long time, and we should take a break. I'd like to take the break and invite him back for questioning from the rest of the Commission.

So, Mr. Ray, we'd like you to stay around. We'd like to ask you questions in about an hour and-a-half at two p.m.

MR. RAY: Okay.

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned. We'll see you in an hour and-a-half.

(Whereupon, the luncheon recess was taken.)
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Part 9 of 12

Afternoon Session

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Commissioners, staff, consultants, take your seats.

We are returning to the business at hand. And for those of you that are watching on television, welcome back to the second half of our third day of hearings. We will be going on, also, tomorrow morning and afternoon and, hopefully, we'll end somewhere around five o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Then, we'll give the scientologists their point of view to be expressed here, as we have also presented the city's point of view.

Mr. Flynn, is your witness still sworn in?

MR. FLYNN: Yes, Mayor.

MR. LeCHER: All right. We are now listening to a young may named Ray, David Ray.

DAVID RAY, Resumed.

MR. LeCHER: And Mr. Ray, you can continue to tell what you want to tell, and try and be brief. I don't want to stifle you, either. And then, I would like to then throw it open to my colleagues for any questioning. And I believe we'll start with Mr. Hatchett; is that correct? All right.

So, Mr. Ray, would you continue your story, please.

MR. RAY: Yes.

I have two things I'd like to go over right away. One is what they know in Scientology as the RPF's RPF. And that's the Rehabilitation Project Force Rehabilitation Project Force, okay?

If you do something wrong in the Church of Scientology, you go into the RPF. If you do something wrong in the RPF, you go to the RPF's RPF. And what they do is they completely isolate you, okay? They completely isolate you from anything. You cannot eat with anyone; you cannot speak to anyone. You sleep in the garage with all the rats, okay? And all you do is handle garbage all day long.

MR. LeCHER: When you say "garage," do you mean the parking garage?

MR. RAY: The parking garage, second floor.

MR. LeCHER: The second floor, all right.

Now, what about the wind and the rain and the elements? Do they have plywood up there or are you sleeping on the ramps?

MR. RAY: No. They have plywood walls. There's a bunch of furniture and stuff stored in there.

MR. LeCHER: That doesn't —

MRS. GARVEY: Were you in —

MR. LeCHER: I wonder if our building inspectors had inspected that? It must be a code violation, I would imagine. But that's another issue.

MR. RAY: All right.

Well, what they do in the RPF's RPF is just isolate you from everything so that you're completely helpless. It's like having him down on the ground and punching him in the face over and over and over again. He's helpless, okay?

They give you no positive whatsoever; it's negative. "You're bad, you're terrible, and we're going to try to help you. We're the only ones that can help you. If you try to get help from the outside world, you'll die." And that's what they tell you, okay?

And another thing that completely shocked me — this is at the end when I left and I started on the routing form to rout out. And I went over to the Treasury in the International Training Organization — this is where you get your training and you read all the materials and stuff — and they handed me a piece of paper that says I owe them six thousand dollars. Believe me. They call it a freeloader's debt, okay, like I was freeloading on them.

Here I am working this — busting my tail for them, working eighteen, twenty hours a day, all right, taking only 9.60, then, twelve dollars a week, all right? When I want to leave after all that, they tell me I still owe them six thousand dollars, okay? I don't even —

MR. LeCHER: What did you tell them?

MR. RAY: I said, "Forget it." It's — and I have no intention of paying it. That's where they leave themselves vulnerable. Since they are claiming to be a religion and since they are claiming to be non-profit, okay, I don't have to pay it.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

One quick question before I go to my colleagues: Did you knowingly and willingly sign this million — or billion-year contract?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MR. LeCHER: Is it billion or million?

MR. RAY: Billion, or so —

MR. LeCHER: A billion-year contract.

You knowingly signed that?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

MR. RAY: No. I'm ready for questions.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to start with Mr. Hatchett, Vice Mayor.

MR. HATCHETT: David, thank you.

Fraudulent promises — but I want to get into something else in the area of fraud.

I think you mentioned something about three hundred people, maybe, a week checking in and out.

Give us a little more education on how those activities took place with the public people coming in.

MR. RAY: As far as money is concerned?

MR. HATCHETT: Correct.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Well, I had mentioned earlier there's about three hundred people on the average there at any given time, okay? They don't come in and out on a weekly basis.

Some of them stay there two or three months; some of them live there, all right? That's their home. But the average is — and this is being extremely conservative, all right — a hundred dollars a week. That includes your room, your meals, and your training or processing, whichever you're going to do. All right.

So, they collect money — one of the — one of the people that was in my room with me that shared my room —

MR. LeCHER: Excuse me.

Did you say a week or a day?

MR. RAY: A day; I'm sorry.

MR. LeCHER: You meant to say a day, but you did say a week?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

MR. RAY: I'm sorry.

One of the guys that was in my room — his name was Mark Fisher — he worked for the International Management Organization, okay? And they managed all of the organizations and missions throughout the world, and it's here in Clearwater.

MRS. GARVEY: Is that what IMO is for?


MR. RAY: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: International Management Organization.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's an organization.

MR. LeCHER: That's — it relates to a paper that we showed as an exhibit earlier.

MR. RAY: Yes.

Well, he was in what they call an Evaler. And what he does, he takes a look at org. statistics and he evaluates them and tells them what they've got to do to improve, where they're going wrong, okay, and so on to make more money.

Well, they were published at the weekly meetings that they would have. They would tell everybody how much GI, gross income, was coming in from all over the world. On the average that I'd hear is six or seven hundred thousand dollars a week, okay? One week I heard two million dollars.

MR. LeCHER: Million?

MR. RAY: Million in one week coming in.

And that goes into what they call Sea Org. Reserves, which, as far as I know, can be a bank in Switzerland, okay? It's there — they claim Sea Org. Reserves is there so if the country ever goes into a depression that Scientology can survive.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Mr. Hatchett, do you have another question?


About this Jonestown people incident: You say somebody in the Guardian's Office gave you a report against the federal government being that they were the people that gassed them?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. RATCHETT: Do you know that person by name?

MR. RAY: No, I do not.

MR. HATCHETT: Was that person from Clearwater at that time?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: And was that said at a Clearwater building?

MR. RAY: Yes, it was, at Fort Harrison.

MR. HATCHETT: On or about what date?

MR. RAY: Early June.


MR. RAY: 1981.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Ray, how long were you a Scientologist or were you actually a member of the organization?

MR. RAY: I was a member of the Church for seven months, and I was here in Clearwater for almost five.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What were the events leading up to your leaving the Church? Was there any attempt made to try to keep you from leaving?

MR. RAY: Yeah, there were attempts made to try to keep me from leaving.

What made me leave more than anything was the absolute —


MR. RAY: — the absolute insanity that's there. And they claim to be so sane, okay? And they teach you how to be sane, so they claim. But what they're really doing is they open you up to your personal self and they program you to be L. Ron Hubbard's clone.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, from the time — when did you decide to leave? How long did it take from the time you decided you were going to leave until the time you actually left: a day or —

MR. RAY: Oh, no, six hours from the time I made the ultimate decision. But I had been contemplating it quite a bit for a couple of days before that. And all together, I had been contemplating it after two days I arrived there.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, when you decided that you were going to leave, did you tell anybody that you were going to leave at that point?

MR. RAY: Yeah.

I went up to what they call the Hubbard Communication Office, which they have one in each organization, called Division 1. And I went up there and I said, "I'd like to leave and I'd like to rout out," okay?

And what they do is they sit you down and put you in Ethics and they said, "You've got to stay here and write up every overt and withhold you have on the Church of Scientology. We want to know about it, because this way you won't leave here with bad feelings." That's the con game they give you. They want you to tell everything that you've got against them, okay, or everything that you've done wrong ever in your life so that they have it in writing, and they tell you that it's to make you feel better. Sure, it makes you feel better until they pull it out.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do it?

MR. RAY: Yeah, they make you put everything in writing. You have to write it all down and sign it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do that?

MR. RAY: Yes.


MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And what was the next step after that? How many — how much — what time period was involved in this when they were routing you out, let's say?

MR. RAY: This was — this was like — it took — it took at least one day; it kind of dragged on to the second day, because once I said, "Okay, I'm going to leave" — well, as soon as I said that, I just went back to contemplation because I didn't know if I wanted to go through with that because it's a lot of hassle. And they treated me like a criminal, okay?

I could not say anything. I could not do anything. I got dirty looks. I was — got chewed out. I got insults, okay? And they just sat me down at a desk and just fired on me verbally.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What were — what types of things were they saying to you?

MR. RAY: I don't care to repeat them here, please.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, did they attack you personally or — that you shouldn't be leaving the Church or that — those kinds of things, that the minute — something was going to happen to you —

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — if you left or —

MR. RAY: Right.

When you first join, you have a history record, okay, of everything you've ever done, all right, every place you've ever been. And they pull that out and look at it and go over it and start telling you how bad you are, how, when you go out in that world, you're going to die, okay, you're not going to make it; there's no way. "All those people out there are suppressive. We're the only sane ones around."

MR. SHOEMAKER: And they specifically told you that —

MR. RAY: Oh, yeah —

MR. SHOEMAKER: — that —

MR. RAY: — over and over again.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did they — at the time they pulled this information out from this initial document you filled out, did you, before this time, have any realization or indication that that was going to be used in any way?

MR. RAY: No. I was told that that would be put in the file and never brought up.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You were?

MR. RAY: Yes, I was.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And they specifically took that form out and was reading right from that at the time —

MR. RAY: Yes, they did.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — they were talking to you?

Do you know the name of the person who you were talking to then?

MR. RAY: One's name is Doug Steele, and the other one is Dee-Ann Steiger. I don't remember the other's name.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after —

MR. RAY: There were three present.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after they were convinced and going over all these things that were going to happen to you, and they were convinced that you weren't going to change your mind, what happened to you?

MR. RAY: They sped up the process a little, and they took me over and I had this piece of paper that said I owed a lot of money.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's when you got that —

MR. RAY: Oh, that's — that's when I got a little angry at them.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Have they been in contact with you since you left?

MR. RAY: No, they have not.

MR. SHOEMAKER: They have not.

You haven't received any information or —

MR. RAY: Well, something that I found out about two weeks ago is that they have been sending mail with my name on it, but they've, been sending it to my mother. They haven't been sending it to my home address. I just found this out a couple of weeks ago.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, really?

MR. RAY: Yes.

So, I took the mail, sent it back to them rejecting it

MR. SHOEMAKER: I — I'm sure this is a difficult question and, certainly, you don't have to answer it if don't want — it's kind of personal but — since your mother knew that you left the Church, have you lost relationships with her to this point? I know you had indicated you felt you would after today, but have you been in communication with your mother since you left the Church?

MR. RAY: Barely.

It's — ever since I left the Church, she just doesn't have any desire to talk to me or see me or anything. I call her up on the phone once and a while; we just don't get along on the phone. It's —

MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you were in the Church, you would have been seventeen. Would that have put you as a junior or a senior in high school?

MR. RAY: A senior.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During that time, did you go to school at any time?

MR. RAY: No, I did not. Well, I took the California High School Proficiency Examination before I ever went into Scientology.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, you did? I see.

MR. RAY: Yes.


Have you heard of policies, while you were in scientology — I'm sure you have since you got out, but while you were in Scientology — of Disassociate or the Fair Game Policy?

MR. RAY: Yes. I've heard of the Fair Game Policy.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Had you heard of it before you got out of the Church?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And what did that mean to you? What was the Fair Game Policy?

MR. RAY: Well, that meant that anybody who committed what they considered a suppressive act toward the Church of Scientology that they were just fair game to anybody, you know, like a hunted deer or something.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that being practiced against any individuals?

MR. RAY: No, I do not.


MR. RAY: One thing — excuse me.

MR. SHOEMAKER: All right.

MR. RAY: One thing I'd like to say is that they pound it into your head over and over again that if you get any of the material for their Advanced Enlightenment courses, okay, and read it before you've been properly prepared for it that you will contract pneumonia at — at least pneumonia and die.

MR. LeCHER: Did you get pneumonia?

MR. RAY: What's that?

MR. LeCHER: Did you get pneumonia?

MR. RAY: Not yet.


That's a belief, all right. We can't get into belief.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Also, would you go in just a little bit — there was some reference made in the outline which we had about you having some experience in hotel management before you came over here.

Could you explain what that was just briefly?

MR. RAY: Well, it's — my grandparents own a hotel.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But you had actually worked in a hotel before. You knew how a hotel operated before you —

MR. RAY: Well, I had been — I had been staying with them for a while. And when they took vacations and so forth, I ran it. They — they taught me how to do it, and I picked up on things fairly quickly.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, therefore, you would notice — you would tend to notice much more in terms of the conditions of rooms in the hotel, the fire exits, and things that an average person —

MR. RAY: Oh, yes. I think I'm well qualified to determine that.

MR. SHOEMAKER: There was a comment or there was some reference made to vacation packages that were provided for some of the guests, rather than — did everyone who came here come for counseling only or were there also vacations?

MR. RAY: Well, some people came here — I remember that some of the public would come in just for vacation purposes, okay? But once they're there, that's it. Those — they'll talk them into taking services and spending more money.

So, they always ended up getting trained or getting their processing, going up the bridge as they call it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Going up the bridge?

MRS. GARVEY: Going up the —

MR. RAY: Right, going up the bridge.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you have any kind of firsthand knowledge in terms of the operation of the Guardian's Office, other than those that you had mentioned to us?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What was the purpose of the Guardian's Office? What were you told the purpose of the office was?

MR. RAY: To protect the Church of Scientology.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, I don't have any other questions.

Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank, do you have any questions?


David, were you — you say you were promised decent living conditions when you came to California?

MR. RAY: Yes, I was.

MR. CALDERBANK: From California.

In modest means, were you ever given those accommodations, what you would expect what they told you?

MR. RAY: The first day; that was it. The first day, I guess they wanted — they wanted me — once they had me in there, I guess they figured they could do anything they wanted to me. So, the first day, they lived up to their promises.

MR. CALDERBANK: And they — you said that they wouldn't give you medical care and you would have to pay for it.

Did they make any promises as to medical care in California to come to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: Yes. They told me I had full medical and dental.

MR. CALDERBANK: Medical and dental?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And when you tried to get that, you were turned down?

MR. RAY: Yes, flatly refused.

MR. CALDERBANK: You made $9.60 a week?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you were sixteen years old when you first went in?

MR. RAY: Seventeen.

MR. CALDERBANK: Seventeen.

Did you have — did you sign a W-2 form? That's the tax form for your social security —

MR. RAY: I don't believe so, no.


MR. RAY: Yeah, I know what it looks like.


Did you know — were you working regular hours?

MR. RAY: At the Church of Scientology?


MR. RAY: What do you consider regular hours? Yeah, I worked regular hours.

MR. CALDERBANK: You had musters and you had to be a certain place a certain time working for the Church?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I was required to be certain places, but I had so much to do and so little time to do it in; half the time I never made it.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever have to set aside breaks?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I was supposed to have lunch break, breakfast break, dinner break.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever get those?

MR. RAY: Once in a while I'd take them, but I'd have to take them. That's how much work I had.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did children under sixteen in the Cadet Org. follow just about the same basic routine of labor and working conditions?

MR. RAY: I don't believe so, no.


The city inspectors that went up there, you said they had moved furniture around and they were directed to areas that had been cleaned up, and they had advanced knowledge; is that correct?

MR. RAY: Okay. I didn't see the city inspectors come in. I do remember helping them haul things away and hide them, okay, because the city inspectors were coming. And there was a lot of stuff to do and not very many people to do it, and there you have it: extremely hard work.

MR. CALDERBANK: Just for the public health and safety: Would you consider, then, one inspection a year — or how often would a government agency have to inspect to be able to ensure that it was in a cleaned up condition all the time?

MR. RAY: Well —

MR. CALDERBANK: Because you were in a motel atmosphere prior.

MR. RAY: — to put it mildly, if I was an inspector and walked in there, I'd have condemned it.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you said that floors seven and eight were an inferno. You said if a fire had started, they would turn into an inferno. Why is that?

MR. RAY: Yeah, as an example, if it would have started on floor seven because of the amount of boxes and papers stacked in the rooms. And all the furniture is wooden, and it's very old and very dry, okay? And there is no sprinkler system, okay?

And the fire alarm system, as I said, you have to go all the way downstairs to reception, okay. And that's just to set off the alarm, not including the time it takes to run across to get there and to get up to those floors.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see children in poor health conditions?

MR. RAY: No, I did not.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever physically restrain you to prevent you from going outside when you wanted to?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: That was when they punched you?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I'm not blameless for that. I turned around and punched him back and got out. But it really shocked me. And then, I said, "Look, I'm leaving. I've had it." And I'd walk out and, turn around and, all of a sudden, wham. I got it right in the face.

MR. CALDERBANK: All the time that — do you know who punched you in the face, who blocked you from leaving physically?

MR. RAY: Richard Nordstrum.

MR. CALDERBANK: Richard Nordstrum.

You made it clear to him that you wanted to leave?

MR. RAY: Yes. I made it very clear to him that I wanted a day off.

MR. CALDERBANK: And he physically, stopped you?

MR. RAY: He physically tried. He chased me. I ran. After I hit him, I ran. And I dove out the window on the fourth floor onto the third floor roof, and jumped off that into the parking lot and I ran down the parking ramps and down the street.

MR. CALDERBANK: If you hadn't done that, do you feel that you would have stayed there?

MR. RAY: No, I — it's —

MR. CALDERBANK: You were talking about the food, that you had to eat the leftovers.

Was sickness or food poisoning common there, to your knowledge? Did many staffers get sick with the food quality?

MR. RAY: Well, almost all the staffers looked like they had health problems, okay? None specifically that I know of because they're told not to talk about it, okay? I was told not to talk about it.

I would get sick in my stomach once a day.

MR. CALDERBANK: And this was a result of eating the food?

MR. RAY: That and the amount of work, lack of sleep, lack of cleanliness.

MR. CALDERBANK: My last question is science and technology. You mentioned that frequently. You only mentioned services, scientifically proven facts, and guarantees, legal documents, waivers, signatures.

Is that all you heard? Is that what you thought of — how was it represented to you?

MR. RAY: In Scientology, the only thing that was represented to me that had anything to do with religion was their marrying people, okay? And that's it.

And how it was — how they can marry people is beyond me. They — the people in that Church get married for one reason and one reason only, for love and affection, because they can't get it, all right? They pound you and make you work so hard, and they chew you up and spit you out again so many times, your desire for somebody to love you and have a little affection for somebody is so great that people just get married. Because that's the way you have to do it in the Church of scientology. There are a lot of marriages.

My sister got married in the Sea Org. She's seventeen years old and she's pregnant.

MR. CALDERBANK: Would you sum — in summation, if you knew now — if you knew then what you know now, would you have joined Scientology? Would you have spent money and given them work and, you know, the months of your life to come to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you think you were misrepresented as to what you'd find here?

MR. RAY: Yes, very much so.

MR. CALDERBANK: No further questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Ray, I think you covered most of the issues that are living accommodations, medical care, physical abuse, and city inspector.

And the problem that I have had before is the truth of those witnesses that come in. But you said that you never really — if I understand your testimony — that you never really accepted Scientology from almost the second day; is that correct?

MR. RAY: That's correct.

MR. BERFIELD: That being the case and you stayed on for a relatively short time, what are you doing here today? What do you have to benefit from coming here?

MR. RAY: A lot, okay?

That feeling that's inside of me to do some good for a lot of people — I know what happened in my family because of Scientology. And I'm sure there are millions of families with similar or worse problems because of this organization, all right? And it breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart to know that people out there have to go through what I'm having to go through with my family.

MR. BERFIELD: What — along that line, I take it that you do not personally fear for your own future, but what about your family that remains in Scientology?

MR. RAY: I am almost completely lost on what to do. I believe this is the right thing. This is a good start; that's why I'm here.

MR. BERFIELD: But do you think there'll be retaliation against them?

MR. RAY: Well, very possibly. That would be just a guess, though; I don't know how accurate it would be. But I would say, yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Calderbank hit on the point about some of the things going on in the city.

And the question I would ask: If you could leave one parting statement with the people in the City of Clearwater, what would that be?

MR. RAY: Well, first of all, I would tell the City of Clearwater that I am extremely proud of them in that there are almost no local people involved in that group. They have had the common sense and just to know that it's a bad place and a bad scene and not to get involved in it, all right, and they work together on it. And I just think it's fantastic, and if anybody can do anything, you guys can.

And one thing that I would watch out for is that, since this testimony has been brought up, it's going to be interesting to see what kind of attraction that gives to the people. Because I know myself, being a teenager, and when I was in high school and so forth, we all loved to go down to haunted houses and stuff, okay, and see what they're all about. Well, that may happen here. They might want to go find out and see if all this bad stuff is for real. And they could get trapped. And I would be aware of that.

MR. BERFIELD: I have no further questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey, do you have any questions.

MRS. GARVEY: Mr. Ray, I have a number of questions. But first of all, I want to sympathize with you for the chance you're taking and your family loss, that you already suspect what's going to happen. And I appreciate the fact you're willing to do that, even though — if you know you're going to break. I guess I pray that you'll get support from everybody else, from so many other people so that you'll have something to replace that support I think it's going to be important for you.

To go back over some of the things you talked about: For instance, when you talked about the inspection by the city, how far in advance did they know that the city was going to be there to inspect, because you're talking about moving heavy objects and hiding things? That takes more than two hours.

MR. RAY: About four days.

MRS. GARVEY: Four days? Okay.

You talked about Mr. Nordstrum and how you ran from him after the physical fight and jumped out to the third floor and ran. You returned?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MRS. GARVEY: Why did you return?

MR. RAY: Well, again, it's that part of me that says, "Okay, David, you want to do some good for some people. So, this appears to be a good way to do it, so you're going to have to do it their way."

MRS. GARVEY: So, you must have gotten an awful lot of plus to get you to be so firmly committed in such a short time, in spite of the behavior towards you, the way they treated you. You still had this sense of commitment: they are going to accomplish something that you can help with?

MR. RAY: Right.

What attracted me originally was that I was a very isolated person, okay, when I lived in San Diego. I didn't have a whole lot of friends, all right? I wasn't real happy with myself and the things that I was doing, all right?

Well, my mother was in Scientology and one day took me down to meet what they call an FSM, a field staff member, in San Diego. His name is Ray Barton; he's Class 8 auditor, okay? The highest you can go is to Class 12, and he's a Class 8. And I met him, and she had told him a little bit about my background. Well, all he did was make me feel like I was on top of the world and give me all the friendship that I had ever wanted, okay?

MRS. GARVEY: Big brother —

MR. RAY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: — someone that could really relate to you?

MR. RAY: Right.

And he was just — he would put me up for everything that I did. He would find the good points in it, all right, and put me up. And that's what attracted me to it. I said, "Well, anything like this has got to be good." And I was wrong.

MRS. GARVEY: When you first heard about this and heard about auditing — I realize that you never took auditing sessions?

MR. RAY: No, I did not.


But when you heard about auditing, were you ever told that what you said would be confidential?

MR. RAY: Oh, yes, that's — yeah, many, many times.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you told that it was a scientific technique, that auditing is scientifically based and not religious — or it's scientifically based or not?

MR. RAY: I was told that all of the written technology, okay, that includes what's in the books, okay, and what they do with you in an auditing session, was researched, scientifically researched, and scientifically proven to work.

MRS. GARVEY: You talked about your job in — I keep forgetting these initials — the RPF, which was the garbage collections in the restaurants —

MR. RAY: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: — right, and your subsequent stomping down like they do the grapes.

Can you — can you describe the conditions in the restaurant? Were the conditions — or were the restaurant conditions — kitchen, rather, clean, that they would pass any kind of health standards, as far as you're concerned? Or were you not allowed that far in?

MR. RAY: I saw just about everything, because, also, in the RPF, one of the things we had to do was get in there and scrub the toilets.

Now, I don't — I don't appreciate scrubbing a toilet without having rubber gloves or something, okay? And no, they were not clean, okay? They — we did that, like, once a day when it needs to be done a lot, a lot more often than that.

Like I said, if I was any kind of inspector that went in there, I'd condemn the building and I'd close it down.

MRS. GARVEY: Specifically, in the restaurant kitchens, would you — were you able to — were you allowed in there, and could you say whether or not they were, basically, sanitary, clean? They're cooking food there for the public; is that —

MR. RAY: No, they're not sanitary.

One of the guys I bunked with — his name was Larry Black — he was the chief cook. And he was always coming and complaining how they didn't clean up everything for him in the morning, so he's not going to clean it up for them in the evening. And so, they'll get served breakfast with dirty dishes.


You did make comment that you really weren't aware of any children — negative conditions.

Are you aware of a location of a school? Where would children go to school in this area?

MR. RAY: Okay.

The Scientology — I don't know about this area. But the Scientology organization has a — like, a chain of schools; they're called Apple Schools.


MR. RAY: Apple.

MRS. GARVEY: Apple Schools.

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Is that from the Beatles?

MRS. GARVEY: Would there be any school facility within the Clearwater area that you know of?

MR. RAY: Not that I know of, not in the Clearwater area, no.

MRS. GARVEY: So, therefore, obviously — well, not that you know of. But if there is no place for a school, they can't have a school.

Do you have any knowledge of solicitation practices? How do they get you and me to join?

MR. RAY: Well, they have — when I was in San Diego, the first day I was on staff, they took me down to downtown where they have a little office. It says, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health," okay, which is the book, Dianetics. And they have big posters that they have out on the front sidewalk on one of the downtown streets, and they would stand out there and just start walking with a few people on down the street, just talking to them. And most people weren't interested, but they'd bring a few people in and they'd get them started.

MRS. GARVEY: How did they bring — do you have any idea how they brought those in that were brought in? What did they say to convince them?

If you have no idea, don't — I mean, don't go on. But I was just wondering if you did.

You obviously used a solicitation method with your phone calling?

MR. RAY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: What did you do to sell those people that you got?

MR. RAY: All I did was call all my friends and say, "This is great. This'll help you out a lot." They trusted me; they believed me.

MRS. GARVEY: You didn't give any specific promises that —

MR. RAY: Didn't have to.

MRS. GARVEY: They took your word?

MR. RAY: They took my word for it.

MRS. GARVEY: I have no questions.

MR. LeCHER: A few quick ones, then, we'll go to the next witness.

For clarification: Are public people paying people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: The public are the paying people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: When they would arrive there, what would — where would they eat, were they charged, and would they get — was the food included in their room?

MR. RAY: Their food was not included in their room.

There are two restaurants in the Fort Harrison. One is called the Hourglass, which is a nice dinner restaurant; they have entertainment. And there' s another one called The Lemon-Tree, and it's a cafeteria-style restaurant. And they would eat in either one.

They would have a menu with the prices listed, and above it it would be listed as donations, okay?

MR. LeCHER: Donations?

MR. RAY: Yeah. But if you weren't willing to pay that price they were asking for it, you weren't going to get any food, period.

MR. LeCHER: Did they charge the going price, like, a steak may be 8.95 in a restaurant or —

MR. RAY: Actually, their prices are a little bit more expensive.

MR.. CALDERBANK: Even with that overhead?

MR. LeCHER: Even with that overhead, right.

What would they charge for these rooms for these paying people? Did you say a hundred dollars a day?

MR. RAY: No, that's — that doesn't — that's not just for the room. That includes everything, okay, a public person would pay for there. All right. The rooms would run anywhere from — for eighty a day up to a hundred a day.

MR. LeCHER: But would you get a private room for that?

MR. RAY: Oh, yes. They did have rooms that were shared by public people. They would have a shared room —

MR. LeCHER: Like husband and wife in a double —

MR. RAY: Well, like, two men, you know, or two would share a room. They probably don't even know each other, but they'd share a room.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

How many public guests or paying guests would you have there on an average week for pay?

MR. RAY: Around three hundred on the average all the time.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

You mentioned earlier about a young person named Nancy Meader —

MR. RAY: Nadine.

MR. LeCHER: — Nadine Meader.

Explain how she was held there or kept there, the thirteen year old child.

MR. RAY: Well, by what was said to her from people in the Sea Org., okay, she kept herself there. That's — that's what really —

MR. LeCHER: That sounds odd, but —

MR. RAY: Yeah, but —

MRS. GARVEY: That's what he's saying, psychologically, you —

MR. RAY: Yeah. You — they — they get you psychologically, okay, so that everything you do you're being held by yourself — you're holding yourself there, okay? They don't have to do anything. All they've got to do is sit there and plant things into your head, okay, and you'll do it on your own.

MR. LeCHER: Well, I can see how parents could put somebody there. But I don't know how parents could allow them to stay there if they want them back. That, to me, is hard to figure out.

MR. RAY: Well, I can't testify to that.

MR. LeCHER: You mentioned everything was absolute insanity.

What do you mean by "absolute insanity"?

MR. RAY: The people walk around there like robots. They're robots that are programmed. I mean, they might as well be a machine, not a human. They might — they are not individuals, okay? Everybody is the same.

They study the same material, okay? They speak in the same terminology. They use the same slang words, the same this, the same that: everything is the same, okay? There's no room for being individual. And they don't build — they build you up at first to get you in, but once they get you in, they do exactly the opposite and they fire on you, okay, to lower your defenses. Once you've got your defenses lowered, you know, they've got you.

MR. LeCHER: One more thing. I — you mentioned these deplorable conditions and we can, of course, send inspectors over there tomorrow, and I would assume they'd be cleaned up or moved around and, then, I'm not sure of what that would prove. And it also may be harassment, too.

But I wonder about people living in a garage. I don't know how they could clean up a garage in twenty-four hours. I'm just suggesting that.

Was it suggested to you that you join the Army and go the Special Forces so that you'd be better able to infiltrate U.S. intelligence agencies?

MR. RAY: It wasn't worded like that.

When I was first — I didn't want to bring this up, okay, but I will bring it up now since you already did.

When I was first recruited into the Sea Org., they — I said, "Well, what kind of things, you know, do you do? I mean, what are you doing to get Scientology into this area and this area?" And they said, "Well, you know, if you were interested in putting Scientology into the government, we'll maybe put you in the Army in the Special Forces and get you into the CIA or something to put Scientology in there."

It was way up in the air, okay? They didn't — it wasn't a direct "Yes, you're going to do that," okay? It was just a suggestion. I could have — if I would have reached for it and grabbed it, okay, then, I would have had something. But otherwise, it's — I think that piece of information is worthless.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

That's it, then, for this witness, unless there's something that you, Commissioners, want to ask at this particular time. There isn't.

I want to thank you very much for coming to see us today, David.

MRS. GARVEY: Good luck.

MR. LeCHER: And good luck to you. You've been very cooperative, and you're a very bright young man. And we wish you well.

MR. RAY: Thank you very much.

MR. LeCHER: I hope you get your family back.

MR. RAY: Yeah, I hope so, too.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:35 pm

Part 10 of 12


MR. LeCHER: Our next person — we have a couple named Adell and Ernest Hartwell.

MR. HARTWELL: Mrs. Hartwell's not here yet. She went back to change clothes.

MR. LeCHER: Why don't — will you come up, Mr. Hartwell?

Mr. Hartwell, you'll be sworn in, first.

Madam Clerk, Miss Goudeau.

ERNEST HARTWELL, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. FLYNN: Before Mr. Hartwell begins, I'd just like to put a few documents into evidence.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to ask Mr. Hartwell the few basic questions that we're asking every witness.

Mr. Hartwell, you are Mr. Hartwell, sir, are you --


MR. LeCHER: All right.

Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?


MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater?


MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?


MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Yes to both questions.

Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Exhibit 34 --

THE CLERK: It's 36.

MR. FLYNN: -- oh, 36, is a policy letter from the Church of Scientology from the Executive Series, entitled "Governing policy." Could we put that on the overhead projector, please?

(A copy of a policy letter, entitled "Governing policy," was marked as Exhibit No. 36, as of this date.)

MR. LeCHER: How many do you have?

MR. FLYNN: I'm going to put two on the projector and introduce four.

As you can see, this policy states at the top, "Governing Policy. The governing policy of finance is to a, make money." Then, going down to j, k, and 1, it says, make money, make more money, make other people produce, so as to make money." It is copyrighted L. Ron Hubbard. The copyright is in the lower lefthand column below --

MR. HATCHETT: Would you please raise that for me?

MR. FLYNN: Further down, right at the bottom.

And Exhibit 37 is a document, entitled "List of Services, Church of Scientology of California, The Flag Land Base."

This particular document appears in a -- as a brochure, and it's distributed in their organizations throughout the world. And as you can see, some of the courses are rather expensive.

MRS. GARVEY: What's that one thing? Leadership -- is it OEC?

MR. FLYNN: For instance, the first course up in the upper lefthand corner under "Flag Spiritual Counseling Service," there appears "L10, L11, L12, twenty-five hours, $10,638.89." And the courses, as you go down, are generally in the -- seven thousand, three thousand, thirteen thousand, twelve thousand, eight thousand, as you can see.

MR. CALDERBANK: How much does it cost to complete the NOTS auditing, the NOTS program? Is that a twenty- five thousand dollar program?

MR. FLYNN: I'm not really sure. It changes at various times. The person to ask would be Ed Walters. But I've heard various figures of ranging into the forty and fifty thousand dollar range.

In the middle of the document, it appears there is a notation, "package Prices. Elementary Evaluator Course, $10,638.84; OEC" -- I believe that stands for Senior OEC and Internship -- "$22,341.00." And then, "OEC SNR OEC FEBC," which the witness mentioned, which is Flag Executive Briefing Course, is "$37,945.38." And there is another --

MR. LeCHER: Do they get --

MR. FLYNN: -- course there for forty-two thousand dollars.

MR. LeCHER: Where do they get these odd amounts? Is that tax?

MRS. GARVEY: What is OEC? What is the OEC, the one there for a million dollars?

MR. FLYNN: I believe that's an Organization Executive Course.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Flynn, on these documents, unless we assume -- unless you tell us to the contrary, these are all available to us from some source, valid source, that we can look at; is that correct?

MR. FLYNN: That is precisely correct.

This particular document, you can walk across the street and pick it up.

MR. BERFIELD: Oh. But I meant the ones that you introduced previously, they're just -- they're copies.

MR. FLYNN: This particular document, the Governing Policy document, comes right out of a series of books which, now that you brought it up, we will bring in and put in front of you all the books. And I believe the cost of the whole set is in the range of two or three thousand dollars for a ten- or twelve-volume green set, in which this policy appears right in that set under "Finances."

MRS. GARVEY: How many times do people use their credit cards for a donation?

MR. FLYNN: I don't know; I really don't know.

MR. LeCHER: Is that -- I can't see that far. Does that say 1,773,000 --

MRS. GARVEY: There's a few extra numbers there.


MR. LeCHER: -- or it's a billion?


MR. LeCHER: The OEC. The fifteen cents -- or is that a page?

MR. CALDERBANK: That's a dash.

MRS. GARVEY: That's a dash.

MR. FLYNN: I think it's -- I think Mr. Walters is probably the one who could answer that. It appears like, it's $1,063.00 and eighty or ninety cents.

MR. LeCHER: OEC under Flag Administration Courses, then, OEC --

MRS. GARVEY: There's a range, maybe, from eleven thousand to ten-seventeen?

MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah, that's what I said.

MR. FLYNN: Which one are you talking about?

MR. LeCHER: Flag Ship Administration, the third one down, OEC.

MR. WALTERS: Yeah, that would be seventeen.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MR. WALTERS: Yeah, that's the range. It's not one million dollars; there's no course one million dollars.

MRS. GARVEY: Oh, good.

MR. FLYNN: As you will note at the bottom: "Attention credit card users, you may use your Visa or MasterCharge Card."

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, are you going to point out the fact about, the hotels and so forth, and the suggestions that "The above room donations are for single or double occupancy," and also the restaurants, I believe, are referred to. "The suggested donation per room for dining is $80.00."

MR. FLYNN: Yeah. As Mr. Shoemaker has just done, he's pointed that out. And the costs appear to be regulated or fixed right next to the notation to the type of room that's being received. And as the witness just testified and, as I believe, Mr. Kelley testified, those are flat fees that are paid.


And we will simply have marked -- which we won't go into now -- two more exhibits: one, entitled "Accommodations," describing the Fort Harrison Hotel, and another one describing donations, as the next two exhibits.

(A copy of a document, entitled "List of Services," was marked as Exhibit No. 37, as of this date;

A copy of a document, entitled "Accommodations," was marked as Exhibit No. 38, as of this date;

A copy of a document describing donations was marked as Exhibit No. 39, as of this date.)

MR. LeCHER: Now, you're name is Mr. Hartwell. Is your wife with you, yet?

Do you want to wait for Mrs. Hartwell, or can we --


MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Hartwell -- when the officer comes, would you just lead her down front to join her husband.

All right. Would you like us to just -- would you like to tell us in your own words or would you like us to lead you through it for your testimony?

MR. HARTWELL: I guess, I'll go through part of it in my own words.

MR. LeCHER: Why don't you do that, sir. Go ahead.

MR. HARTWELL: Well, I've lived in Las Vegas for a number of years, and I met my wife some fifteen years ago and we got married. We got married. And one of our activities -- our side activity is dancing. We both enjoy dancing very much and became pretty accomplished at it. And one of the choreographers for the show in Las Vegas wanted to choreograph a comedy dance routine, which is like ballroom dancing, and she chose us to teach.

So, we thought of a good comedy routine, and about the time we finished it, we'd be just waiting to go to work. She had suggested that we go to Scientology -- she was a Scientologist -- and take a Comm course and take, also, the course she was teaching in How to project Yourself to the Public. We did do that, and we thought it would be an awfully good thing. I had never had anything to do with Scientology up until that point. So, I followed her suggestion, and I went in and took the Comm course.

My memory's not the best, but if I remember right, I think that was in 1979.

MR. LeCHER: Good.

MR. HARTWELL: So, just about the time that I had finished the Comm course -- again, I don't know, it might have been ten days or something along that line -- I was approached by representatives from the L. Ron Hubbard Personal Vocation. They didn't represent themselves at that time that way. But anyway, they put to us a proposition of us going into the Church of Scientology and following our dancing career. Of course, that was the one thing that appealed to us pretty strongly because we -- but of all the other things that it offered, too. It seemed like I got -- or I finally thought, "Well, it's a pretty good program."

Now, my wife, of course, became more of in favor of it much sooner than I did, because I was pretty skeptical about a lot of it. But to start off with, her two daughters were in Scientology. The oldest daughter had been in it for a number of years and my stepson, or her daughter's husband, had been in it for a number of years, and he often talked to us about things about Scientology: the things that they were doing, what they were accomplishing, and some of the great things that they were doing. I always had kind of a "Well, let's wait and see" attitude about it. And I never did see any of the results.

But anyway, I started checking up on it when they presented this program to us. Oh, I almost forgot. The younger daughter, Fre-Dawn, she was about nine years old when we married. So, I took -- helped raise her, too, actually as if she was my own child.

MRS. GARVEY: We know it's tough.

MR. HARTWELL: I'm sorry; I thought I was over that.

MR. HATCHETT: We can wait.

MRS. GARVEY: Some things you never get over.

MR. HARTWELL: Anyway, they had -- I'll explain this, too. She was in junior high school, she was a brilliant child; she was on the honor roll and she did very well in that type of thing there. But when she got into high school, for some reason -- in that period of just a few months' time between junior high school and high school -- she went wrong, and we never could quite figure out what happened. But she didn't like high school. She couldn't seem to get adjusted to high school. She started ditching and doing various things like this.

So, the other daughter was in Scientology and talked her Mom into sending her over to Scientology and see if they couldn't do something about her education. They had a much superior system, program, and all this sort of thing. So, they sold her on the idea of going in and leaving school all together. So, this was necessary for I mean, I became pretty concerned about that. I wanted to know what kind of a program they had. I went down there to try to find out what they were teaching her. And they were just telling her, you know -- telling me they don't want to be concerned -- this isn't my concern, this is her Mom's concern. And I got, you know, a lot of baloney from them. So, I tried to talk to Adell about it, but I never could get anywhere with her, either. Well, between her and her daughter, they both accepted the Scientology program, signed her in, and sent her off. Just like that, she was gone.

So, I didn't have anything to do with -- I just thought things weren't right. And I couldn't get a hold of anything that led me to believe that it was right.

So, in the meantime, I'll come back to where they presented us with the program of serving under L. Ron Hubbard. And some of the things that they presented to us: One was, of course, our living conditions, where we would live and where we were going. And they had told us that we were going to Clearwater, Florida. And we were shown pictures of the hotel here of our own room -- we would have a private room -- and the grounds, and we would have access to all the facilities that were there. And being right on the ocean, that kind of appealed to me as one thing.

Well, before I even made a decision on that, I went to the library and checked, you know, as much as I could on the area here, the weather conditions, and so on and so forth. And I went -- I said, "well." Then, of course, what they promised us was a five-hour working day, they promised to let us follow our dancing career. Heck, I thought we were another Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire team -- produce, in other words, our comedy routine, our dancing routine, and movie work. So, this, of course, appealed to us, something we were very much interested in. And I was already scheduled and was supposed to become an editor and/or a photographer. So, again, this appealed to me, too.

But -- quite a number of things. And one of the things that I did was I went to visit a fellow who had been aboard ship. I went and talked to Mary's daughter who had been here to Clearwater and had been at the hotel and stayed there. And they had nothing but good things to say about it, nothing but good things to say about it.

So, over a two- to three-week period. I checked out everything that they had to offer. I checked everybody I could, everywhere I could, and I got nothing but good reports. And I said, "Hey, it looks all right," and accepted. But under the conditions I accepted, number one, transportation. I had two automobiles at the time and didn't need them and they didn't want anybody to take them with them. We couldn't do that, but they had all kinds of transportation here. We would have transportation wherever we needed it at the hotel. They had cars and we could use any one of them. So, this was agreeable.

The living quarters, I told you what was promised to us. Well, I finally agreed to go ahead with it. And the arrangements that we were to get ourselves to Los Angeles, and they would reimburse for our expenses of getting there and, then, they would put us on a plane and fly us to Clearwater, Florida. So, of course, we were all excited about the whole thing because at the time it seemed real good. They gave us the address of the Fort Harrison, the Clearwater Hotel. I mean, the --

MR. LeCHER: The Sandcastle?

MR. HARTWELL: 210 Harrison?

MRS. GARVEY: That's Fort Harrison.

MR. LeCHER: The Fort Harrison, okay.

MR. HARTWELL: The address they gave us where we would be. Then, they gave us the local phone number here to give to other members of our family, address and phone number of where we were going to be in case they wanted to get in touch in case an emergency came up and so forth. So, we were fairly convinced that this is where we were coming to.

Now, when we got to Los Angeles, they took our belongings into the headquarters there in Los Angeles and sent us to a motel. The next morning, a car came over to pick us up and take us, supposedly, to the airport. So, we left the motel we was at under very hush, hush conditions, you couldn't talk. And he left and drove around down on Main Street and off on side streets, checking the car to make sure it wasn't bugged, checking around make sure he wasn't. If this went on, I thought, really, they were beginning to have questions about us. And he explained to us that he had to take precautions because they didn't want anybody to know where L. Ron Hubbard was; they didn't want anybody following them or that sort of thing.

So, they finally ended up in Glendale, a town that I had lived in, and ended up on the top floor of a public parking lot. And then, he pulled up alongside of another car and there we were to be transferred to the other car, our goods. We took with us the things we had with us; they transferred to the other car, and the other car took off. And still, we thought we were going to the airport.

Well, they leave town, and the way he's going, I finally says, "Hey, I'm very familiar with this area. What's going on? You're not going to the airport. Where are we going?" And then, he said, "Well, we're sorry. We just couldn't tell you exactly where you were going. We had to tell you were going to Florida. But you're not going to Florida, you're going to southern California." Well, I mean, the shock for both of us. I just -- I ended up speechless; I didn't even know what to say or think for a while. I was totally spellbound.

But we finally agreed to go on down there and at least look into things. One of the things -- one of the big sales points, of course, was that they had assured us that we would be reunited with our daughter, Fre-Dawn, that, of course, she was going to the same area.

And I guess I ought to go ahead and mention, too, that L. Ron Hubbard was producing these movies as promotional things for the Church and for -- also, to get down all his theories and philosophy and everything on movie. And it took forever to do that, and this type of story they would give us.

So, we finally figured, "Well, the only thing we could do is go on down and see what the conditions were and pick it up from there." That was the first real shock and disappointment we had, the first one.

But now, we get down to the location. It was a few miles out of Palm springs in the middle of the desert, the last place I would go to if I had a choice and know where I'm going to. I knew the area, had been there before several times, and it was just like Las Vegas. Hey, I wanted to get the heck out of this desert, and I wanted to go to Clearwater, Florida.

But anyway, we got down there. The next job was seeing the deteriorated and dilapidated condition of the organization. I mean, we were at the point where I expected to go down there and find, you know, gentlemen like yourselves dressed in suits and ties and, you know, clean and adequate buildings that you have here. I was absolutely shocked to see everybody running around in shorts, ragged clothes, dirty, and unkempt. And I just -- I couldn't believe my eyes what I was seeing.

And of course, the ranch they took us to was in the same condition. There were weeds falling all over, the lawns had all died, the housing, the buildings needed painting. Everything was in a dilapidated and run down condition, neglected condition more than anything. So, that's shock number two.

Then -- let's see, how do I explain this? Well, they had three ranches down there. They took us to work on the main ranch. On the main ranch was their main activity, fifty, sixty acres, something like that. And we met our daughter there. They brought her out. And then, we were told that where we were living was on the other end. We didn't get to see it until late that night. So, we spent the afternoon there.

Now, another thing that was very disturbing to us, too, was that all of our personal belongings were left in Los Angeles. I think we had a suitcase or two that we took with us and our overnight bag and a few things like that. Otherwise, when we went to this place, most of our things were still in Los Angeles. And so, we just sat around the ranch that day, saw this place and that place and what was happening.

That night, about eleven o'clock, we were taken over to what was supposed to be our living quarters. And boy, you talk about shock number -- whatever number it was. I -- we just couldn't believe it. They put us into a little shack that apparently had been -- I don't know, it was just a little, three-room shack on the edge of the ranch there. The driver took us up to the door and said, "That's where you'll be," backed off, and left us. We go inside and what a mess; we couldn't believe it.

And of course, the most -- the worst thing about it is that the place was just totally overrun with bugs, insects, and all kinds of desert whatever you call them. They give us a set of sheets and told us that there was another room -- another couple that had been in the room at the other end, and they had just taken the sheets and put them in one of the other rooms. And this wasn't big enough.

The facilities consisted of a mattress on the floor. So, when somebody turned the lights on, of course, it stirred up the bugs and everything began to fly all over the place. I pulled the sheets down to change the sheets in the place, and I swear there were at least a hundred bugs on those sheets. My wife and I just couldn't believe it. So, we just gave up right then.

And we went over to another main house where other Scientologists were in there. So, we went over there and simply told the guy in charge, "Hey, there's no way we're going to stay in that place. I mean, there's been some big, bad mistake. This is the limit."

So, they had this main -- this Master at Arms they call him. He came over and he said, "Well, there's nothing we can do about it now. It was probably midnight by this time. He said, "Just go in and clean the place the best you can, stay there the night, and we'll have a better place for you tomorrow." So, we argued with him for quite some time, but there wasn't any more I could get from him. So, we finally said, "There's nothing else we can do, so we'll have to spend the night."

So, one of the other arguments about this spot -- we had been forewarned when we got there that they were having a lot of trouble with break-ins and burglars. We were close to the Mexican border and they were breaking into places and stealing. And they had just broken in the shack we were in the night before. They told us about this. The bathroom window was broken and they had it boarded up.

So, I said, "Well, I don't like the idea of being in here, either." We didn't want to be there. "Don't worry," he says, "there's a burglar alarm system all around here." He said, "Didn't you see it in there?" I said, "Yeah, I saw the tape for the burglar alarm; I'm familiar with those things. But it's not connected. How is it going to ring an alarm?" "Oh, we're going to fix that tomorrow." Of course, they never fixed it tomorrow. They never got rid of the bugs or anything else.

The next morning, we were picked up and taken back to the main ranch. Well, we were just furious by then, both us. So, I went up to the person who was responsible for getting us there -- I happened to see him the first thing -- and I just chewed him out. I said, "Get me the hell out of here; I ain't staying in this place." Well, they told us to calm down and finally got us to calm down.

They took us into the -- sent us into the chaplain. Of course, we didn't get to see the chaplain. The chaplain was gone, so we spent about three hours with the chaplain's wife. Of course, all she did was just lie to us again: lie after lie after lie about they had another ranch and they were going to put us in that and we'd get our own private room. It was real nice and they were just refurbishing it that day and they were sorry about the inconvenience, but we were brought down way ahead of time. I said, "You say we were brought down ahead of time. The girl and the man who came down to get us into the place were budging us daily to get here because they were holding up production on the movies, and they had to get us here right away to get things going. So," I said, "we came here as quick as we could."

Then -- so, anyway, I spent about -- first, I said, "Just get us the hell out of here. We're going home. I won't stay here -- no way." She said, "Well, you can't leave here." I said, "What do you mean, I can't leave here? Are you trying to tell me I'm a prisoner here?" "Well, you' re not a prisoner." I said, "Well, then, fine. If I'm not a prisoner, get me out of here. That's all I want; I want transportation out of here, and that's all there is to it."

Well, this went on about three hours and, finally, we finally said, "Well, we'll agree to take a better look at it. This is nothing what we expected or were told. But," we said, "there's a problem involved: all of our personal belongings, and we don't want to leave without them." So, we managed to stay -- decided to stay, at least a few more days, to see what happened. Well, nothing happened.

Now, we went to work. Our working conditions were not the same as explained before: seven o'clock in the morning till eleven, twelve at night. I started belly-aching the first week for my weekend off that I was supposed to have, and they said, "You don't get a weekend off." Well, I went through all that stuff with the chaplain: "Sorry they lied to you about it. There's nothing we can do now. We're punishing the person that told you all these things." In fact, they were. The three people involved were in the RPF when we got there. And I argued, of course, and said, "I didn't give a damn what you do with them. I want to know what you're going to do with me?"

Now, the other thing, too -- let me explain this to you here. The other things that make a lot of difference to the things I have to say is that we were not programmed into Scientology; we were not brainwashed. We were not following a great guiding light or any great pull that L. Ron Hubbard had. So, this, then, here -- you know, the other people who went there -- all the other people who went there, they accepted those conditions. It was all right with them. They didn't seem to mind the bugs and the snakes and all the other things that were involved there: the lousy food, the lousy living conditions, all the dirt. They didn't seem to mind that. Be we did. I mean, I would never have gone if I had any idea what I was going to find. So, this covers that.

But anyway, I decided to make another try at it; my wife and I both decided. Of course, this is the part that -- and one of the other things that was the main reason for us getting into it is my wife had taken -- we both had -- a swine flu shot, and she had quite a reaction from that. I think they call it dysentery or I don't know what it was. In other words, she had a condition that was not correctable, and we'd been to a number of doctors. It had gone on for about three, four, five, six months. That was one thing that they had assured us Scientology had the knowledge and knowhow to correct. Now, when somebody has a diarrhea condition like that for four, five months, believe me, they are pretty weak and pretty run down. They're just a wreck healthwise because they feel in a bad state.

So, of course, that's one of the things I gave in on, and realizing that perhaps they had the answer or would have the answer for -- to bring her back to health. So, that's, of course, one of the other reasons we decided to stay. I wanted to see what they were going to do for her. Well, they didn't do anything for her.

And it went on. We asked for auditing and medical care and various things like this here to get her started on a program of going back to good health. Well, "We don't have any auditors right now." I said, "Well, you told us to come down and that you had the top auditors in the nation and they really had this thing under control." "Well, we don't have any. We're starting to train some." So, another big let down in a long line on that issue.

In other words, it was just nothing but a total pack of lies the entire time that I was there. And I kept watching for the rest of my personal belongings to get there from Los Angeles. When they finally got there, I went back and I told them, "Hey, I want out. There's no way that I intend to stay here. You totally misrepresented to me and this is not what I'm going to put up with. I have no desire whatsoever to dedicate my life to L. Ron Hubbard." And --

MR. LeCHER: Tell me how you --

MR. HARTWELL: I beg your pardon?

MR. LeCHER: I'm just trying to get -- all right. You're moving right along.

MR. HARTWELL: So, anyway, I regularly told them I wanted to leave. They wanted a board meeting, and they wanted to know why and all this -- and all the reasons why, and I had to give them all the reasons why.

So, it was then a matter of deciding what to do, what the next step was. They had decided to release me. They sent me out the next day, and they were releasing Dell and I both. Now, this went on for, again, a matter of two weeks more before they finally released me. They had excuses every day why I couldn't go. First, it was one thing, the next day it was something else, the next day it was something else. This went on day after day.

And then, in the meantime, too, they had started a program of forcing Dell and I against each other, which, I understand is a common practice with anybody they have trouble with in Scientology. The first thing they do is work the couple against each other. And they had started this and got it going pretty good. I got to where I wasn't quite believing what Dell said and she wasn't quite believing what I said.

And they were making her believe that they couldn't do anything for her about her health program until they got rid of me, because I was the one that was causing the trouble for her. And they began to have her believe this.

So, I finally got out. It was one of the hardest things --

MR. FLYNN: If I may interrupt just a minute, Mayor: That last point is a very significant point in the consideration of the commission. And you may recall -- just make a note of that -- that they led Mrs. Hartwell to believe that her illness was being caused by Mr. Hartwell and you will hear in later testimony precisely why. But you might make a specific note of that point.

MR. HARTWELL: So, anyway, as I started to say, this was all -- on the last day, they made a decision the wife wouldn't go with me; she would stay there. And we sat down and talked it over, and we finally decided that maybe there was something to what they were saying, number one.

Also, was the fact that I had to go back to Las Vegas and obtain a job. I didn't have any at that time; I no longer had a job. I didn't have any insurance; I didn't have enough money to get the medical treatment for her; I had no way of covering anything while I was there. So, we finally decided the best thing to do was to go back -- for me to go back and leave her there and, perhaps, they would take care of her then.

And then, the other thing, too, is the daughter was so brainwashed by that time, I couldn't reason with her anymore. I mean, I saw what a hopeless mess it was, and I tried to reason with her a number of times, but she just wouldn't accept anything I had to say at all. She was totally brainwashed into -- she was in heaven. So, it was hard to do, to leave.

MR. LaCHER: Let's take about a five-minute break.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

(Whereupon, the hearing resumed.)

MR. LeCHER: Staff, Commissioners, consultants, ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Officers, when the people are in, close the door.

Mrs. Garvey -- okay.

MRS. GARVEY: Right here.

MR. LeCHER: Vision, are we on?

All right.

We are back from a short recess. And if you're just joining us, we're talking to Mr. Ernest Hartwell who was promised to come to Mecca, to Clearwater, sold his possessions and tried to find his daughter, and somehow ended up in a desert. And so far, he's gone three thousand miles away from here.


MR. LeCHER: And I'd like you to continue where you left off, Sir.


First thing I want to say is I'm sorry.

MRS. GARVEY: No, that's fine.


MR. BERFIELD: No apologies.

MR. HARTWELL: That was one of the bad things about the Church: breaking up families. It seems like they do everything they can to destroy families and happiness. For me, like I said, it was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life, leaving them there in the condition that they were in and leaving them with a man that was totally insane.

Now, I hadn't said it before, but I want to say that. A number of people, when I came back, asked me what I thought of L. Ron Hubbard, and I told them, "The man is crazy; he's absolutely insane." Now, that's my own personal belief, my observations.

He was a screaming maniac, the three or four times that I saw him. One of the times I saw him, he came in and issued conflicting orders. He'd tell you to do one thing and turn around two minutes later and tell you not to do it. And he expected you to do those orders.

Anyway, I got out -- and then, after I got back to Las Vegas, it was a matter of about a month and-a-half before I went back to work. And when I got back to work -- shortly after I got back to work, the chaplain from there, Fred Burke, came to Las Vegas and approached me with a story that he had heard I was responsible for disclosing the location where L. Ron Hubbard was. Of course, I told him he was wrong, and I said, "Chase it down." "Fine, I'll chase it down."

Then, he produced our marriage license and told me that he obtained the marriage license from my wife and that she wanted a divorce. And this was something that just left me speechless because I couldn't believe it. -- I felt we had a real strong thing going for each other; we did have. We were real close to each other. We never had any real trouble until this thing came up in our married lives. So, I just couldn't believe it.

But anyway, he left. And after he left, the more I thought about it, the more confused than anything else I became on it. And so, I -- oh, the other thing is that he wanted to know if they could use my address, and would I accept passports for Fre-Dawn and Dell. And I wondered what for, and he said, "Well, they're moving out of the United States, going to a foreign country, so they'll have to have passports. And they have to have a local address to send the passport to." And so, I told him, "Yes." You know, I was just so shocked, I couldn't figure out what they wanted.

Then, of course, after that, they had me worked on me, and it became more upsetting. But I did manage to get Dell back home a month or so after that.

Now, just shortly after she came back home, they approached Dell and said that she would have to pay a five thousand, five hundred dollar freeloader debt that was incurred for the time that she was in there for expenses and for services that she had received, or she would have to go back on staff as a member of the Church of Scientology locally. So, when I heard that I just -- I almost went right through the ceiling.

So, I went down to the office, the GO's office, and told them, "Hey, there's some big, fat mistake. We were cleared of it and notice was put on the bulletin board that we were being released free and clear of any debts. And now, you're coming back and telling me we owe five thousand dollars. This is a big mistake." So, they called me back a couple of days later and said, "Well, Hartwell, we want to inform you that now you owe five thousand, five hundred- dollars, as well as your wife. So, you have a ten thousand, five hundred dollar debt to Scientology." Jesus.

Of course, I went, you know, as far as I could go with it, locally: back to her daughter, back to them. We had been writing letters back and forth, and I kept getting stalled and stalled and stalled. And so, I finally went down there to get some help, and I told them -- hell, but I got the letter then that I was free and clear, we didn't owe any debts.

I went back to Las Vegas, and her daughter, the next morning, came to our house and wanted us to go down to Scientology and sign another document. She wanted us to sign another document. I said, "Why do I want to sign another document? I want to be clear of them and they want to be clear of me."

Well, they're, of course, a highly paranoid operation. That's what they are. They're just scared to death that somebody is going to let it be known where Ron is or some of the secrets of the Church.

So, we spent three hours with her daughter, thereabouts, arguing about: "Hey, I've been through this goddamn thing for days. I don't want to ever hear anything more about it. Get out of here and leave me alone. I ain't going to -- I ain't signing no papers." And this discussion went on about that they just had a couple of questions they wanted ask us. I said, "Ask me." She said, "They want to do that down at the Church." "No way." So, I finally got them out of there.

Then -- I got them out with the agreement that we would go down in a couple of days and find out what it was all about and see what they wanted. So, we went down in a couple more days and, now, they've got another -- they want me to sign another letter, stating I owe them thirty thousand dollars if I say anything more about the Church of Scientology, and I had welshed on my agreement with them by threatening and this sort of thing here. I had threatened them, of course. But I had done it. And I was just trying to get them off my back.

So, now, this goes on. They tell me what they want. I said, "Hey, I ain't signing an agreement like that. You don't have to worry about me." Now, I outlined the agreement. "Of all the things that we were supposed to do, I held up my part of the bargain on everything. I said nothing about anything. But you people have double-crossed me, lied to me, and double dealt me time after time after time. Now, I want a letter from the Church of Scientology that says you're going to leave me alone. And you get off my back. I'm not on yours; you get off my back." I told them how to write the letter.

Well, of course, two days later they called me back and told me, "Yeah, we have an agreement here just like you wanted. Come down and sign it." So, I went down and it was the same thing. So, we had another half a dozen meetings and, finally, the organization said there was nothing more they could do about it. I said, "Well, fine."

Now, harassment went on for months after that. They sent a fellow out from the main organization in Los Angeles, and he started a big harassment campaign. And it ended up by them finally telling me that they had definite proof that I was trying to extort money from the Church of Scientology and, they were going to put me in jail if I didn't sign the new agreement.

This agreement here -- and we had some arguing on this one, too -- but they were trying to get me to state -- sign statements to the fact that I had been an alcoholic all my life, that I had totally neglected my own children, and that I had been abusive to my children: I was a poor father and poor provider. And I had just a number of inflammatory statements like this. Of course, the last statement was that I did now owe the Church of Scientology sixty thousand dollars, and I was supposed to sign this thing. I said, "Hey, no way." So -- and not in such nice terms like that, you know.

Anyway, that same night, they had sent Dell's daughter to our house where we were living. And she went there -- she'll tell you her version of the story -- to threaten her with our lives. So, after that -- up until that point, I didn't realize what demons we were dealing with. I didn't realize that they were lying and trying to do everything that they could to destroy us.

Actually, they had cost us our jobs, cost both of us our jobs. They had us moved out of the place we were living in. I don't -- Dell will probably tell you about other things that happened to us. But that was the last -- when they threatened to put us in jail, I went to the police department then and, in fact, I did fear for my life. I got scared, and I did get scared, because it's a known fact that there are a lot of suicides connected with Scientology. I didn't want to be one of them. So, I went to the police department and told them what happened. And the next day, I took Dell down and she made a report on the same thing.

And then, I went to the newspapers. I told them everything about where L. Ron Hubbard was, what the Church was like, what they were doing. I went to television stations; I went to radio stations; I got on the air, and I knew if it got public, they'd quit. I figured that's the only way of having my freedom. And sure enough, it worked. They didn't bother me from the day after. The first time to come on, they didn't bother me a bit. So, I guess that's the last story of the things that happened.

MR. LeGHER: Did they sue you?

MR. HARTWELL: Well, yes. And after that they brought a lawsuit against me.

MR. CALDERBANK: What was the --

MR. HARTWELL: Well, I forget what the --

MR. LeCHER: Well, let's not get into that. They left you alone as far as dirty tricks, but they did bring a lawsuit against you?

MR. HARTWELL: Yes, right.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MR. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, here's several things that happened now. They, too, went public, and they made public statements to the fact that I was an alcoholic, I had a drinking problem, that I had murdered my father. They took -- let's see, there were several other things they brought out; I don't know.

Oh, there's another thing is that they ran a story in the newspapers that I was guilty of extortion, that they had definite proof in the Church of Scientology that Ernie Hartwell was trying to extort money from them. They ran that in the newspapers and on television, the same story. So, these things, of course, happened, too.

MR. LeCHER: Tell me about -- your daughter tried to kill you, did you say, or threatened your life?

MR. HARTWELL: I beg your pardon?

MR. LeCHER: You say your daughter tried to kill you or threatened your life?

MR. HARTWELL: No, she didn't. I think, probably, it would be better if my wife would tell that story because I might --

MR. LeCHER: Why don't we have your wife come up now and tell her -- what she'd like to say. Then, we
could question both of you when it's appropriate.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:36 pm

Part 11 of 12


MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Hartwell, will you please be sworn in, please, by Miss Goudeau?

ADELL HARTWELL, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: I must ask you the same five standard questions that I asked your husband and I've been asking everyone that appeared before us as witnesses.

Number one: Are you appearing today and testifying under oath voluntarily?


MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater?


MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?

MRS. HARTWELL: Yes, we do.

MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Now, if you would tell your story in your own words, please.

MRS. HARTWELL: I think Ernie has covered quite a bit of it, except that I would like to say that when I found out I was going into the desert, my heart just sunk because it wasn't where I wanted to go, either.

Also, I'd like to say that when we did get united with Fre-Dawn down there, I realized how brainwashed -- that she was cold.

MR. LeCHER: Fre-Dawn is your daughter?

MRS. HARTWELL: Yes. She wasn't the same girl that left us. I can't quite explain it, but it was just a cold feeling.

I was appalled, like Ernie said, with the swearing, the cussing. In fact, I was crying one day and said I'd have to go home to learn to cuss and swear before I'd ever survive down there.

And then, another thing that was real shocking, I was in the shed one day, the wardrobe, working, and I heard -- I hadn't met Hubbard at this time. And I heard this terrible screaming filthy language like I had never heard before. I had something in my hand and it fell to the floor and my mouth flew open. I said, "Who in the world is that?" And they said it was the Boss, because we weren't allowed to use the word "Hubbard" for security reasons. And I said, "Your man, the leader of the Church speaks like that?" And they said, "Yes. He doesn't believe in keeping anything back." So, that was another -- quite a shock.

The main thing that I disliked, too, was, when we first got there, we were -- before we could see the place, we had to be programmed on the lies that we had to tell. If we run into one of our friends, we had to tell a lie to them and tell them that we were just there for a vacation. We had the man's name and everything to give. We had to go twenty-five miles to use the telephone, and always, usually, there was somebody with us; we couldn't use the phone. There was no papers; we never read the paper.

We were schooled on how to get away from process servers, FBI agents, any government official or any policeman who wanted anything to do with Hubbard. We had to -- if we had to, there was four different ways that they trained us to handle them, even if we used -- had to use mental force -- physical force. And that went on for days, that training. One of us would be the FBI agent and the other one would be who we are, you know, until we had it down pat.

We also had to lie if we ran into Scientologists. We were here in Clearwater on a mission and we were returning. There was no way that we could have friends or relatives come and see us. We were just like we had been cut off from the world. We were behind closed -- locked doors with curtains always pulled.

If the utility man or anybody came on the property, we were alerted. We were to stay in as much as possible, not run around, watch our language -- or their language; I was all right. And they were to -- we were to hide anything pertaining to the word "Scientology" in books or anything that would disclose that it was the Church of Scientology.

We also had to -- anytime we left from one building to another, everything that we carried had to be in sacks. There was nothing that could be visible that had "Scientology" on it. And that was always a worry. And when we were outside, we were not to use the language that Scientology used. And so you were under constant strain. And I was even afraid to go on lib because I was afraid that I would disclose his hideout by saying something. And Fred Roth was put in the RPF because he said the word, "Scientology" on the golf course. So, this is how rough it was.

We also -- oh, there was something I wanted to say about -- the way they got my marriage license was we had to make a story up about where we were -- that we were going overseas because Ron's hideout had been exposed to the government. And they made me believe it was Ernie that disclosed it.

And so, he needed our marriage license, and I didn't even question it. And he also needed my -- our birth certificates, Fre-Dawn's and mine. It wasn't just us; it was everybody in the Los Angeles area that was down there that had to get passports. So, their loved ones all thought they were going overseas, and so that way they couldn't contact them here -- where we were.

We were given a lawyer's name and address that we had to memorize. We couldn't leave the base until we had it memorized perfectly in case there was an accident or we were ill or in a hospital, and we were to use this lawyer's name and he would come and take care of everything.

When they went to the doctors or the dentists, we would always use -- I used my real name. I think they used your real name, but they always went by some place and picked up a fake address and said that we were friends staying with someone. There was always people going to and from the doctors.

L. Ron Hubbard believed that anybody that was ill was a double threat to him: number one, he couldn't -- they couldn't produce, so they were no good to him; number two, he was terrified of a germ of any kind, and so they were locked up in, I'd say, about a ten by twelve room. And at one time there was thirteen boys and girls in this room, running high fevers and all of them smoking. I mean, you could hardly see within there, it was so terrible. And you were treated -- they were treated like an enemy in this room, and because they were.

Hubbard, I saw him throw fits. I actually saw him take his hat off one day and stomp on it and cry like a baby. I have seen him just take his arm like this and throw it wild and hit girls in the face. And one girl would follow him with a chair. If he sat down, that chair had to be right where he was going to sit one girl missed by a few inches; he about fell off of it, and she was put in the RPF.

And the other girl would carry an ashtray, catching his cigarette ash. They had to pop the cigarettes in his mouth when he wanted it. He had one man that would just wash his clothes. and tended them, changed his clothes for him. He had a nurse. He had one woman who did nothing but clean the house. And he had one man that did nothing but cook his three meals a day. It took him from about six in the morning till about ten at night to get those three meals prepared.

I was with Hubbard every day for about a month. I should say, every night. We would start -- our daily job would start about twelve o'clock, and we would go -- at noon, and we would go until the sun came up the next morning, and a lot -- most of the time without anything to eat after six o'clock at night. And so, we were working almost around the clock, except for the evening meal.

They said that they couldn't -- no way could they give me any auditing because of my illness, because Ernie was upset and had me upset and that, as soon as Ernie left, why, then, they would start and give me real auditing and get me to the doctor.

By the way, when they came to sign us up, I explained to them my trouble and I told them that I needed a good doctor and I did think that, maybe, auditing would help, and which they promised me both. And -- so this is one of the -- they showed me a picture of the hotel and said that "Do you think that Hubbard would live in anything any worse than this?" So, naturally, that's where we expected to come.

Okay. The RPF down there didn't function like it did over here because they had no place for the RPF.

Another thing, when we went out days, we were schooled that we had to -- it was a bad place for rattlesnakes, scorpions, and, of course, black widow spiders. We had to wear boots and carry flashlights at night.

The RPF had their clothes in boxes, and their mattresses were thrown out on the ground with the spiders and the scorpions. They had to run everywhere; you couldn't talk to them. I was written up several times for talking to Fre-Dawn.

I also saw her one day -- every time I would go by on my way to work, I would see her dragging her mattress from one shade tree to the other. I said, "Why are you doing this?" And she was ill and she couldn't be in with the others, and so she was hunting shade and keeping out of the -- it's 117 degrees, and she was hunting shade because she was ill.

I was worked one day -- ironed out in the heat -- out in, I mean, in the shade. And it was 102 degrees then and without any food the whole day. And by five-thirty I just got deathly ill, and I told them I had to leave. And I staggered quite a ways -- it's about three blocks from where we were shooting to where we -- up to where we -- where the dorm was. And I was staggering. I fell first in the -- then, in the ditch; it was like I was drunk. But anyway, I made it to the bunk and just crashed.

They came in and woke me up and said at seven o'clock I had to go down because Hubbard was going to be on the set. And I wouldn't do it. And I was written up because I took a three-hour nap.

So, this -- and another time I complained I had to go home because I wasn't being treated. I was thin and bleeding and in quite severe pain, and they took me right in and put me on the Meter, said I could go home -- or go right to the doctor. And the next night they had us scrubbing the barn. We started at six o'clock and we scrubbed that barn until four o'clock in the morning, and they had me carry the buckets of water.

And this -- nobody -- anybody that run a fever was immediately put out of commission. But anybody that was ill and not running a fever, they were made fun of and ridiculed because they thought more of their body than they did of Hubbard's work.

There was no unity; there was no working together. It was, like, if you were going over here and somebody was coming this way, you couldn't stop and say, "Hello," because, then, that would stop you and slow you down so you might not get your work done.

And one day we were laughing and joking on the job, and the supervisor told us if she ever caught us doing that again we'd go in the RPF. It was strictly work, no pleasure.

If you were in the lower conditions, all money stopped coming in, what little of it there was. You didn't get any pay and you didn't get any lib; you were just held prisoner.

While I was there -- when we first got there, about two days after we left home, which was about a five-hour trip, my nephew drowned. And we didn't get word -- it took ten days for them to notify us that my nephew had died. And this was by a letter from my sister that went to Clearwater and then back to where we were, because they wouldn't give us a telephone call. All our mail was read before it got to that base. I wrote three letters to Ernie before I got through, and I finally said everything was going great because everything else came back and I had to rewrite it. All the mail, like I said, had to come here and then go to Clearwater.

Nearly every time I went to the phone after Ernie left, I had to be -- there was a guard with us. I could never be alone after that.

Oh, by the way, too, when my nephew did die and I got word of it, I demanded that I go into Palm Springs and make a phone call to my sister. And it took us from seven o'clock in the morning till about six-thirty that night. And they finally give us this broken down truck. We had to buy the gas. They gave us two hours. If we weren't back in two hours, they were going to call the police and have us arrested for stealing the truck.

I saw a man -- I don't know how many were at the base while I was there, but it was quite a few. I saw a grown man, such as my husband -- he cried for days, maybe two to three days. And they were under constant guard before they were allowed to leave. They drove people so close to suicide before they were allowed to leave that base. The women was just constantly crying, and it was -- it just tore me up.

I also, the last month I was there, was following Hubbard's orders, and I read this one that -- I don't know how many times I had to read it before it could really sink in -- was that Elaine Wright was going to commit suicide. And Hubbard -- this is what the order said, "I don't care if Elaine Wright is going to commit suicide or not, but get her off of my land before she does." Where was the help? You know, where was the religious counseling?

The only time that the word "God" was used was in vain, and I mean, it was used constantly. There was no civil talking to each other. It was all cussing and swearing.

I know one night I had to cry, and crying would take me into Ethics. So, I laid out on the diving board where I could see all around me and I had me a cry.

Another thing that was shocking, too, was that Ernie wrote me a most wonderful letter, and I was so thrilled because he was taking -- he was on the horse and he was doing so great, and I thought, "Well, gee, I'll show them." So, I showed it to one of the girls, and she said, "You can go right down into Ethics." And she said, "And you get this straightened out right now." They don't want you to be happy. They don't want you to be united; it's just individualism.

I saw my daughter very little because she, first, was in the RPF. Then, they got -- they put her in isolation again. She got ill; her fever went up one degree and down one degree, and she was in there for about two and-a-half months in this one room, not allowed to see anybody. You can imagine what that has done to her brain.

Then, when we did come home, we thought everything was going smooth and everything, then, the harassment started. The night that -- it was twelve-thirty at night when Mary Louise came to my home and she kept trying to get me out of the house. I was -- a mother is the only one who would know the feeling I had. I opened the door and I was really scared of my daughter. And yet, I can't tell you why, except her face, her eyes, and her attitude. I refused to leave the house. And I can't really remember anything that went on all the time that Ernie was with Alan Hubbard. And she wanted to know if we were afraid for our lives, and I told her, "Yes." And then, the police told us we should report that.

And then, the next day we were told that we had to move out. And then, the next day they came on my job. I worked at MGM, where it was strictly guarded, with millions of dollars of money in costumes, and I turned around and my daughter was there. And she come -- I told her not to come in again, she was jeopardizing my job. She came back two different times and brought Alan Hubbard with her, once. The last time she told me that she said, "I want you to know that nobody has been murdered over any of these things yet. But it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better." And I started to cry and I said, "Yes, I know it is." Then, she put her arms around me and said she loved me.


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hartwell, how -- I think we've heard enough as far as your narrative. I'm just going to ask you a few questions, then, I'll turn it over to Mr. Calderbank.

I -- it just seems incredible that a couple like you sells everything and tries to be a -- wants to be a dancer and maybe make movies, and you're given this carrot which is a brochure of sparkling Clearwater, and you end up in a desert, and you can't leave, and your marriage is about to fall apart. You're separated, you're divided, you found her. And your daughters want nothing to do with you. And you're destroyed financially and mentally. That's just difficult for me to believe and, I'm sure, everyone in this room. And I, frankly, don't know where to start to ask questions. I think you've said it all.

So, for the time being, I will just yield and -- maybe Mr. Calderbank has something to ask you.

MR. FLYNN: I think Mrs. Hartwell has one more thing.

MRS. HARTWELL: There was another time that was really terrifying, and this was when Ernie had all his meetings with them to get me out of there. But this was why Alan said I had to be there, because I had --

MR. LeCHER: Who's Alan?

MRS. HARTWELL: Alan Hubbard was the man sent from California to handle us.

MR. LeCHER: Any relation?


Anyway, he -- so, he went down the hotel room -- a motel room to meet with him. He was all alone. And there was both my daughters and their husbands, and they had flown my daughter and her husband in from India just to use against us. And they were -- came in the night before and they hadn't even called us. They hid my other daughter's car so we wouldn't know that she was there.

And we started talking. And all of a sudden, another one that was with Alan Hubbard -- I don't know him, I don't know why he was -- I got so terrified. But he, all of a sudden, jumped up and started to yell at Ernie, saying what a beast he was, what a terrible man I had because he was trying to extort money from the Church, he was no good, that I knew what was right and what was wrong. I had to get rid of him; I needed to divorce Ernie and get back into the Church because I knew what was right.

And finally, Ernie got me out of the room. I just -- I think -- it seems to me like it went on for hours; I don't know how long it did, but to me it seemed forever.

But Ernie tried to get me to drive home, but I couldn't because I felt like, if I had left the room that day, I'd never see my daughters again, and it was close to being true.

MR. LeCHER: Where are your daughters now?

MRS. HARTWELL: One is in Las Vegas; we never talk to her. And the other one's in LA.

MR. LeCHER: And they're still in the Church of Scientology?


MR. LeCHER: Why couldn't you leave? You didn't have a car, were you that far out in the desert, or were you broken spiritually or --

MRS. HARTWELL: I was still hanging onto I had to get to a doctor. And when Ernie comes home, no job to go to, he didn't have the money to get me to a doctor. And I had been told that if I didn't get attention soon it would be cancer. And so, I was still hanging onto them getting me to a doctor, which they did in September. They finally got me to a doctor.

MR. LeCHER: Did Mr. Hubbard cure your cancer?

MRS. HARTWELL: Oh, yes. I wasn't -- no, he couldn't cure anything. He was terrified of getting sick.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank.

MR. CALDERBANK: It's hard to ask questions after that.

Dell, would you like to take a break?

MRS. HARTWELL: I'm fine.

MR. LeCHER: One thing: What year, for the record, did this take place?

MRS. HARTWELL: '78 and nine, was it?

MR. LeCHER: Well, when did you leave for Clearwater and end up in the desert? What year was that? How long were you in the desert?

MRS. HARTWELL: It was -- I think it was -


MRS. HARTWELL: -- May of '79 we went. Ernie came back in July; I came back in October.

MR. LeCHER: Did you ever make it to Clearwater until today?

MRS. HARTWELL: Yes. I -- a year and-a-half ago I was here for the Tenney trial.

MR. LeCHER: I have no questions, Commissioners. I don't know if you want to question them anymore. I think we've heard everything. I don't think we should question them, but if there's something you want to ask for the record, go ahead.

Mr. Calderbank, first.

MR. CALDERBANK: Just very clearly: The main reason you got -- Clearwater was held out to you, and the whole start of your entire journey was that you were coming to Clearwater --


MR. CALDERBANK: -- this beautiful city?

MRS. HARTWELL: I should clear up one thing.

We were to come to Clearwater and go a short distance from Clearwater because Hubbard wasn't in the Fort Harrison Hotel, but he was close by.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever hear the term "Dunedin" used?

MRS. HARTWELL: The what?


MR. LeCHER: It's a city -- a town north of us.


MR. CALDERBANK: It's interesting -- this is a little off the subject and you don't know about this -- but everybody in Clearwater, virtually, was sent a booklet from the Church of Scientology. I think it was "The Way to Happiness." It had various numbers, and they said "The Way to Happiness, quote, unquote, was not to lie, not to do illegal acts, and one of the major tenets was to keep the family together. And --

MRS. GARVEY: It's written by --

MR. CALDERBANK: Written by and copyrighted by Mr. L. Ron Hubbard.

I know you've answered it, but how would you characterize that? What would you say to people of Clearwater that would receive a book like that? How would you sum up and tell them your experiences versus what they're holding out?

MRS. HARTWELL: I'm not sure I understand what --

MR. LeCHER: What advice do you have to give to the citizens of Clearwater?


MR. HARTWELL: I would certainly advise anybody that not to believe anything L. Ron Hubbard says. To me, he's nothing but a flat out liar. Of course, he's a big fabricator of all kinds, but he does quite a job, too, of blowing things up way beyond proportion of what they are.

It's my belief that he has used psychoanalysis, something discovered by another man that Hubbard got hold of, and he has simply called it auditing. It's nothing but psychoanalysis, but he has called it auditing. Now, I say this because I had some psychoanalysis treatment myself some thirty years ago. And what little bit of auditing I got into, psychoanalysis is the same thing. And -- the principles of it are identically the same thing. In fact, Ron Hubbard himself gives credit to Freud for a lot of this philosophy.

MRS. HARTWELL: I would like to say this: I -- my heart bleeds for every youth that's in here, because I know the brainwashing they've had, I know the damage they've had. We've gone through it. And once they step out that door and face reality, they need help. And that's what I feel.

MR. CALDERBANK: Dell, did they actually tell you that auditing would cure your sickness and the side effect --

MRS. HARTWELL: Between the auditing and a good doctor, which there was supposed to have been one of the top doctors in the United States at base is what they told me.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any questions?

MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple: I'm going to ask Mr. -- Ernie -- because I know better than to ask a woman -- what is your age?



MR. HARTWELL: Sixty-two.

MR. BERFIELD: The reason for that is we've seen a lot of young people come in here, and I was just curious. I will not ask your wife that.

I will ask her one question, though. If I could paraphrase, in answer to Mr. Calderbank's question here -- this treatment that they offered you, would you say that that's fraud in your own mind, not --

MR. HARTWELL: The treatment they offered Dell?


MR. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, definitely.

I am aware and I agree that certain mental problems can be cured by the process that they use, psychoanalysis, or through psychiatric treatment. We all know that. And they probably do enjoy a certain amount of success with the problems that people have, mentally.

But when it comes down to physical problems, I think it's an entirely different story. To give you an example, I have varicose veins very badly in my leg. Of course, I'm more concerned about as far as my dancing career is concerned. But they told me they could cure them. Without going to a doctor, they told me they could cure them. Now, that, of course, I found later is -- nobody's ever heard of anybody curing them -- varicose veins through mental treatment.

MR. BERFIELD: One other question: I've noticed among the people that have testified here, in the back room, that there seems to be a tremendous camaraderie among those of you that have left Scientology.

And I've asked the question of previous ones, you know, of whom you could turn to and, apparently, there is no one that you can go to outside the Church; is that correct?

MR. HARTWELL: In regards to what?

MR. BERFIELD: In regards to searching for help.

MR. HARTWELL: Oh, sure.

MRS. GARVEY: While you're in the Church.

MR. HARTWELL: Sure. If you have mental problems or physical problems, in our society there are many that you could turn to for help.

MR. BERFIELD: No. I mean, the Church itself: fear of the Church, leaving the Church, fear of leaving the Church.

MR. HARTWELL: State your question again.

MR. BERFIELD: Well, I think I'll go on.

And I guess this is more to your wife, but prior to leaving the Church, what retaliation would be taken against the two of you if you left the Church?

MR. HARTWELL: Well, that's the thing that they do, of course. They resort -- instill a great amount of fear in you. This happened to us from the day one when we got there until we got out of there. In fact, the fear of it never really left us.

There are quite a few full blown psychos in the organization of Scientology, at least I think so. And I think each day you live in fear of some one of these persons taking it on himself to say, "Hey, we must destroy this enemy or that enemy." I mean, they are constantly hammering this type of thing to them anyway.

Their enemies must be destroyed.

So, the average person doesn't do those things. But we live in fear of it, I do. And, of course, I've heard of it. And if you couldn't quite walk out of your building -- any man who couldn't walk out of a building would be scared to death. There's nothing but fear.

Of course, the first time that you -- or the second or third time that you hear of people, say, committing suicide from being in Scientology, the confusion that you're in and the mess that you're in and you know what you're faced with, hey, you are scared.

I mean, I was scared to leave there myself, really scared, because I didn't know what would happen to me. I was scared, too, of leaving them there, because I didn't know what would happen to them. They put that fear in me right from the very beginning. I mean, they hammer it in and they maintain it. So, you're scared all the time that you're there; you're scared to blow your nose.

One of the biggest things, of course, is the RPF. You're scared of speaking out of turn or you'll go in the RPF. You're scared of everything.

One thing that scared me, when I was in the desert, they kept stalling me day after day before they sent me home. In the meantime, about half a dozen guys had left there, what they call blow. They were supposed to have blown. Well, I finally said to myself one day, "Hey, did they blow or are they buried up there on the hill somewhere?" I mean, I'm not saying that any of this happened, but these people just disappeared. And I'm beginning to say to myself, "Why are they going to send me home?" I'm beginning to think they're looking for the right opportunity to bury me on the hill. I mean, they instill that fear in you. Believe me, this is fear.

And when they come down making these death threats on us, maybe I'm a chicken of some sort, but I ain't -- I'll face anything. I'll face the worse thing that they have. But I was afraid they would bury me, I really was from what they put in us.

MR. BERFIELD: One -- just one last question here: There seems to be a thread that runs through here of divide and conquer the family or the family unit.

And I've asked this question, and Mr. Calderbank has asked it in another way: If you could give a message to all the people of Clearwater, what would you say to them today?

MR. HARTWELL: Stay out of Scientology. Don't have nothing to do with Scientology, believe me.

MRS. HARTWELL: The ones that are already in.

MR. HARTWELL: Oh. Are you talking about people that are in?

MR. BERFIELD: Those that are in and those that are outside, the people of Clearwater.

MR. HARTWELL: Well, the people that are in, there's really not much that you can say to them because they're totally brainwashed and sucked into it. The people that are out, hey, stay out.

MR. BERFIELD: My last question: Our purpose in this hearing, as a legislative hearing and not as a court, is looking out for the health, safety, and welfare of the people of Clearwater, and that's what we're trying to establish here.

What can we communicate and do for those people of Clearwater?

MR. HARTWELL: Well, I think the people are reading, especially now and have before, enough accounts in the local paper and that of what Scientology is, what they do, and how they operate. The residents of Clearwater, Florida should be able to know what Scientology is by now and be able to keep out of it.

MRS. HARTWELL: I have something. I'd like to say something here.

The way I look at it is: I feel that what someone in Scientology needs is somebody like the Flynns that has given us support, because trying to find a lawyer and going to a lawyer with the story that we had -- they thought we were crazy. And we just about didn't go public because they thought we were crazy.

Now, what needs to be said is they need a deprogramming program and they can be deprogrammed, which, would take away the fear of the ones coming out. And they also need to be -- it's like a concentration camp. They need to be set up before they can be rehabilitated.

MR. LeCHER: That's a comment that we shouldn't really get into an area about, deprogramming. We have -- we're concerned about the external activities and business activities, and that's something I'm advised that we should not pay too much attention to, although it's certainly very important and --

MR. HATCHETT: Well said.

MR. LeCHER: -- well said.

Mrs. Garvey, do you have any questions?

MRS. GARVEY: Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Hartwell, for coming here. It's been very difficult for you. And coming from -- having children of my own and coming from a large family, I share a little bit, I think, of what you're going through.

Just to go back on a couple of things that you said: Mr. Hartwell, you talked about the good reports that you got about Clearwater.

Were these from Scientology staff people or were they from recruiters or where -- who in particular did you get this kind of good reports on Scientology, the Florida organization, and Clearwater?

MR. HARTWELL: I'll say mostly from her daughter. And then, we got one other person -- oh, yes, several other people, in fact, in Las Vegas that were here. They had one person in particular in the family -- two people --

MRS. GARVEY: Vacationing?

MR. HARTWELL: No. They were in Scientology.

MRS.. GARVEY: Scientology.

MR. HARTWELL: They were aboard the ship, Apollo, and they landed here and got to know what some of it was like. And everybody spoke well of it. And I can understand why now that I see it myself. I could give up Las Vegas very easily.

MRS. GARVEY: When -- did you want --

MRS. HARTWELL: The messengers, when they come out, the others -- where --

MR. FLYNN: There are messengers from the Commodore's Messenger Org., called CMO. They are like the elite of Scientology. We'll get into them at a later point in time.


They were sent out, then, after you expressed an interest; is that --


MRS. GARVEY: Were you taught or told about auditing as part of Scientology, if you went and had gone through auditing process?


MRS. GARVEY: And were you told that this is a scientific method of doing whatever --


MRS. GARVEY: -- curing whatever your handle was --

MR. HARTWELL: Very definitely --

MRS. GARVEY: -- or your problem was?

MR. HARTWELL: -- yes.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you ever told it would be kept confidential?



MR. HARTWELL: As a matter of fact, they took information out of my confidential file and used it against me.

MRS. GARVEY: Obviously, then, you would not have done the auditing if you had known that it was not going to be kept confidential?

MR. HARTWELL: Of course not, no.

And even part of that stuff -- information was published in the newspapers.

MRS. GARVEY: Some of your auditing information was --


MRS. GARVEY: -- in the papers? Okay.

Mrs. Hartwell, you have made comment about "written up." What does "written up" mean?

MRS. HARTWELL: Everybody spies on everybody. I was even afraid to speak to my daughter because she would write me up.

You do --

MRS. GARVEY: Is it like a reporting back --


And they do this to keep everybody in line. They say it's for your -- their own good, because if the person does it --knows they're caught, they won't do it again. So, you're really supposed to be doing it for their own good. But it is just spying on each other.

MRS. GARVEY: Just one -- you made comment about pay. Were you paid there at all while you we're --

MRS. HARTWELL: We were like whoever it was that testified today. We were promised seventeen-fifty a week but when we got down there -- and we had to study the different courses, like, the sec check I was telling you about. We were only paid -- because we were on study, our pay was cut to seven-fifty a week.

And then, like I said, too, the RPFers and if you were on the lower conditions, where it seemed like I was most of the time, there's no pay.

MRS. GARVEY: No pay --

MRS. HARTWELL: No pay but more work.

MRS. GARVEY: You just casually mentioned sec checks, security checks. What -- did you both go through security checks?

MRS. HARTWELL: Very vividly, when we got down there. And that was, I think, the main purpose -- now, I can see the main purpose is to find out if there's anything in -- about your background that they can use.

MRS. GARVEY: Is that -- is that a check or a question and answer thing of about a hundred, a hundred and fifty questions?


MRS. GARVEY: They ask --


MRS. GARVEY: -- everything that they want to know that you wouldn't want to tell them otherwise?



We saw that earlier, Mr. Flynn?

MR. FLYNN: That's Exhibit 6, for the record.


Okay, that's it.

MR. LeCHER: Is that it, Mrs. Garvey?


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett, do you have any questions?

MR. HATCHETT: No, Mr. Mayor.

I'm happy that you came. My heart bled as I listened.

I don't need to ask any questions.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Mr. Shoemaker.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. and Mrs. Hartwell, something that -- I don't know whether you can give us an answer or not.

Apparently, from what we have heard and what we understand, being close to L. Ron Hubbard, from a Scientologist's point of view, would be almost like going to heaven. That would be the greatest thing that could happen.

MRS. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, very much so.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And the fact that they came and recruited you, when you were not directly related to Scientology, and brought you in immediately to where he was located -- did you ever understand why they selected you to do this?

MRS. HARTWELL: No. We kept asking ourselves, "Why; Why us," you know. And then, I kept telling Ernie -- I says, "Well, everybody on the planet, or, you know, in Scientology, would give their right arm to be here." I says, "Why don't we feel that way? What is there? What's here?"

And that's the way it was.

MR. HARTWELL: I think I could add just -- go ahead.

MR. SHOEMAKER: No, sir, please go ahead.

MR. HARTWELL: I think I could add something more to that.

They realized -- or we heard indirectly -- they had made a mistake in bringing us there. That was one of the reasons why the recruiters that were sent down -- from wherever it was that came down to take us in made a gross mistake by taking us in because we were not indoctrinated into the religion. So --

MR. SHOEMAKER: And that's why they were put in the RPF?

MR. HARTWELL: That's one of the reasons, I guess, along with everything else. They stayed in -- their punishment, in other words, lasted as long as I was there and, I think, it lasted as long as she was there or even longer.

MRS. GARVEY: But they were there when --

MR. HARTWELL: Yeah. They had -- they put them in there for taking us there because we were not in the religion.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

One quickie: What kind of movies was L. Ron making? You made movies with him in the desert. Were they epics, or --

MRS. HARTWELL: Well, it was -- one was on the E-Meter. And this was quite interesting, too, because everybody -- they had what they called the pinch test.

MR. LeCHER: Pinch?


You pinch and the Meter's supposed to read and then, you're supposed to say, "Feel that pinch," and the Meter's supposed to read again. And you know, everybody on that base was pinched one to ten times before we finally got to pass the first reading.

MRS. GARVEY: No feelings left.

MR. HARTWELL: I think one of the things that made me realize what a hopeless, helpless operation it was is that I went into the editing room -- that was going to be my first job -- and when I first got in there, I was shown amongst other things, a file cabinet of film that they had. Now, they had a two-door cabinet that was probably about that wide and, I guess, seven feet tall. And it was almost full with film, you know, the thirty-five millimeter regular movie-size film. All the trays were marked "No good."

Now, this is what made me realize the insanity of L. Ron Hubbard and what he was trying to do. He was the one that was directing the movies; he was the one that was writing the scripts for them; and he was the one that was producing them. Yet, there was --

MR. LeCHER: Was he acting in them, too?



MR. HARTWELL: At least, not that I know of.

MR. LeCHER: He was the star, too?

MRS. HARTWELL: He was the star.

MR. HARTWELL: But that's what made me realize it. The whole place was nothing but in a high state of confusion. Each department, instead of working with each other, fought each other, and everything was a terrible confused mess. But, hey, there's the man that was running it.

MRS. HARTWELL: One thing I'd like to add is we were doing a scene where they were bombing the FBI office and -- I mean, I was in makeup, and we had so much blood on those actors, which was made out of Karo Syrup and food coloring. And we couldn't get enough on them to suit Hubbard. We had guys legs off, there were hands off, arms -- I mean, it was a mess from the word go.

We had so much blood on those actors that they had to take their clothes and all and soak in the shower before they could undress. This is what Hubbard wanted.

MRS. GARVEY: This doesn't necessarily relate to the Clearwater operation, but I think it relates to the base that we're talking about.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, one other question, if I might ask: Was there any question in your mind that the things you described -- not specific detail, but the things you described -- is there any question in your mind that Mr. Hubbard did not know what was going on?

MRS. HARTWELL: Well, a lot of things was kept from Hubbard, like, the mail was supposed to -- everybody writes to Hubbard and he answers everybody. He doesn't see a letter.

But anything, such as our case, that was going on on the base was right from Hubbard. There's no doubt. There -- the telexes came. I thought -- the telex room was really heavily guarded. But I did see telexes from England, California, and Clearwater.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, ma'am.

The conditions which the people were living in there and the RPF and all of that -- that he certainly knew about that?

MRS. HARTWELL: He knew it and thoroughly enjoyed it.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

I would just like to say one final comment: We thank you very much for being good witnesses and for being -- you've got a very sad story to tell, and I don't know how you got it out, but you did it very well. And we appreciate your coming.

MR. FLYNN: As a point of information, the movie that Mrs. Hartwell referred to, whatever it's worth, is a movie that was made during the period that the criminal cases in Washington, D.C. were taking place. And those movies were shown around the United States.

And they, basically, showed that psychiatrists, the FBI, and the AMA were criminal organizations, as shown in the movie. And some of the blood scenes that were described were seen to have supposedly been perpetrated by the FBI and the AMA. And those movies are shown around the United States to certain Scientology members.

I would now like to introduce a document and -- also, for the record, as Mr. Hartwell testified, after all of this occurred, a lawsuit was brought against him by the Church. And I will leave the reasons for the bringing of the lawsuit to your -- whatever inferences you may draw after you hear the rest of the testimony.

And I would point out the Fair Game Doctrine that was on the easel -- and we'll put back up -- that said earlier that the Fair Game Doctrine says, "Lie, Cheat, Sue, or Destroy."

And we're now going to introduce an exhibit involving the alleged cancellation of the Fair Game Doctrine, as held out by the Church.

Can we have the lights turned off, please?

Thank you.

You'll note that the HCO policy letter of 21 October 1968, from the Hubbard Communications Office, says, "Cancellation of Fair Game." The Fair Game Doctrine over on the easel is dated 18 October 1967. The portion under "Enemy" that I referred to a minute ago says that an Enemy may be tricked, sued, lied to, or destroyed, as well as deprived of his property, et cetetera.

This document says, "Cancellation of Fair Game. The practice of declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations. This PL" -- policy letter -- "does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP."

MRS. GARVEY: Nicely written.

MR. CALDERBANK: But, Mr. Flynn, doesn't it say SP Order over there, and then it says you can lie, sue, trick, cheat?

MR. FLYNN: That's correct; that's the policy.


MR. FLYNN: And this --

MR. CALDERBANK: -- this policy letter did not cancel anything?

MR. FLYNN: Did not -- that's precisely correct.

As a matter of fact, see, what was occurring at that time was, when they issued Ethics Orders, they put on the Ethics Order that the person is subject to Fair Game. Well, for a period of time, because they were having problems in England and Australia and other countries, they took that off Ethics Orders, but they continued to implement the policy.

And as you've seen from the exhibit we've already introduced into evidence, which is Exhibit No. 4, on 8 June 1979 in this country, they subjected to a person with a Fair Game Declaration, as you have seen. And you just heard the Hartwells' testimony.

(A copy of HCO policy letter, dated October 21, 1968, "Cancellation of Fair Game," was marked as Exhibit No. 40, as of this date.)
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Part 12 of 12


MR. FLYNN: The next witness -- that's the prior Exhibit No. 4 and, if you move it up, you will read that that person is subjected to the Fair Game Doctrine down at the bottom of the last paragraph. And if you move it back down, you'll see the date on it: 8 June 1979.

The next witness is named George Meister.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Meister, would be sworn in, please, by Miss Goudeau?

GEORGE MEISTER, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Meister, I must ask you the same set of five questions I ask every witness. Are you appearing today to testify under oath voluntarily?


MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than the expenses to come to Clearwater?

MR. MEISTER: No, sir.

MR. LeCHER.: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?


MR. LeCHER: Does the Scientology the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

MR. MEISTER: My name is George Meister. I'm here, not because I've ever been a member of the Church of Scientology or ever will be, but I'm here in behalf of my daughter, Susan. And I'd like to have the camera get a shot of this picture, possibly. This is a picture of my daughter, and that's all I have.

Susan died aboard the ship, Apollo, June 25th, 1971, with a bullet in the middle of her forehead. Well, I first received news of this death -- and we live in Greeley, Colorado, and my business took me over a four-state area. I was in Salt Lake City at the time. I received a telephone call from my daughter, the youngest daughter; I had two daughters. My youngest daughter, Robin, called me and said that "Dad, Susan's dead." I said, "What?" She said, "Yeah, Susan's dead."

She said, "Reverend Maren is here, and he's going to wait until you come home to acquaint you with the facts of her death." I said, "Who is Reverend Maren?" She said, "He's a minister from the Church of Scientology." So, I don't know, everything became a blur; I couldn't think very straight, and I was in shock.

Well, I have a cousin in Scottsbluff, Nebraska, who was a practicing attorney down there. I called him and I said, "I need help. I'm going to fly into Denver and, when I get into Denver, I'd like to have you meet me there because they have this man from the Church of Scientology there who's going to tell us about Susan's death." And he said, "Susan's what?" I said, "My daughter's dead." He said '"I'll be there." So, he was.

So, we went to Greeley and discussed the thing with my wife and my daughter, then, proceeded to meet with Reverend Maren. He informed us that Susan had died aboard the yacht, Apollo, by a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He said, "We have a report here that the ship put out," and it was worded that Susan had committed suicide.

But we talked with the Reverend Maren quite some time and, of course, my cousin, being an attorney, was had some inquiring questions, like: "Were there any witnesses to this?" He couldn't come up with any witnesses or anyone who had seen this happen. "What were the circumstances?" "Well, Susan died aboard the ship in the harbor of Safi, in Morocco, North Africa."

So, on the fact sheet that they put out that he gave me, it said: "Miss Susan Meister was found dead from a gunshot wound in her forehead at approximately seven thirty-five p.m., on Friday, June 25th, 1971. The door was locked and admittance to the cabin was only gained after the key had been obtained from the berthing steward. She was lying fully clothed on a bunk in the cabin; there was no pulse.

"The police authorities were immediately notified and the body was taken ashore to the police mortuary for an autopsy as required in such circumstances. On the floor of the cabin, the police found a suicide note which they took as evidence.

"The captain had all persons restricted to the vessel, except for senior officers assisting the police in their investigation, until such time as the autopsy was completed and the police investigation completed.

"The gun used was a .22 caliber target revolver belonging to another person on board. Susan knew that he had such a gun, as she had watched him clean, reassemble, and replace it in a drawer in his cabin. The gun was found clasped in her hands.

"On the day of her death, Susan was seen on board by many people and, particularly up until two-thirty p.m. She appeared to be quite happy and not in the least distressed or disturbed.

"As her job entailed the delivery of communication to all parts of the vessel, this explains why so many saw her in the time period mentioned. However, in the afternoon, she was found missing at her work as clerical assistant and a crew member looked for her and found her alone in the cabin where she later committed suicide. This was three p.m. and he asked her to come back to work, which she did. She was seen by her senior at four pm. However, she didn't make her usual communication deliveries at five p.m., nor did she appear for dinner at six P.M.

"Susan arrived on board February 19th, 1971 and, although the police took the suicide note as evidence, one of the ship's officers was asked to read it to them. He stated that in it that Susan mentioned that she wanted her possessions to be sent to her parents, especially, her books and she was sorry for any mess caused anyone."

Well, basically this is what happened. And as soon as possible, taking the time that it took to get passports and so forth, I made up my mind that I was going to Morocco to find out what happened.

Morocco wasn't a new place to me. I landed there in 1942 with the U.S. Army; I was a combat engineer. And I knew what a hole that country was.

But -- oh, it was about two weeks later, maybe a little longer, that I was able to leave. And I stopped off in Washington, D.C. because I had a feeling that going over there to that country - and with what little I could learn about these people - that I wanted all the protection that I could get. I stopped at the office of Gordon Allen, who was the United States Senator from Colorado in Washington, D.C., and Gordon Allen was extremely helpful. Peter Domenic was also another one of our U.S. Senators, and he was helpful.

So, between the two of them, they provided me with letters and they provided me with the information that I needed on who to see when I got there to Morocco.

After that, I left the States and went to Morocco, landing in Casablanca. It was real foggy there, I remember that. Coming in on Pan Am's - one of those old Boeing 707s -we had to make three passes at the airport before we could find a hole through the fog and get down and-find the field. Well, this is three o'clock in the morning.

So, anyway, I went over to the terminal with the rest of the passengers. I was looking around for the vice counsel that I was told was going to meet me. Instead of that, my name came over the loudspeaker in the airport. I walked up to this desk and there was a man an a woman standing there to meet me. The man's name was Peter Warren, and he introduced himself, and he introduce the woman as Joanie from the-ship, Apollo; they were from the Church of Scientology. And they were to escort me. I said, "Well, where is the vice counsel? Where's this government official that I wanted to meet?" He said, "Oh, he had a previous engagement and he asked if we'd look after you." Okay.

So, it was some twenty miles into Casablanca. We went into the Mar Harbor Hotel and I was given a room in the -- in this hotel. I was tired, so I went to sleep. And about ten o'clock the next morning, I got a call from this -- from the vice counsel. And he came over to the hotel room and then we started going over the facts of Susan's death, that it was by gunshot wound and so forth. And he became alarmed. The man had had some previous intelligence experience. He said, "I don't like this at all." And we were to go to Safi, which was about a hundred miles south of there.

So, these people, the Scientologists, Warren and Joanie, were always there. I could never move without them being right by my side. The following day, the four of us took a car and drove to Safi, and I had a camera with me and I had some thirty-five rolls of film. I thought that what I'd like to do, I'd like to photograph everything and get as much as I could on film.

So, we went down -- drove down to Safi. And when we got there -- Jack Galbraith was the vice counsel's name , and he suggested we go to the -- first, we go to the local police department to see what we could find out about it. We went to the police department and the man who was in charge of the police was very helpful. The first thing he had done was show me a photograph of Susan lying on the bunk with this hole in her head and blood running out the corners of her mouth. It wasn't a very pleasant sight. And all the reports that they showed of this death were all written in French. Of course, I couldn't under -- I couldn't read French and neither did Jack Galbraith. So, it was -- that wasn't too effective.

Well, I asked -- then, they showed us the box. I wanted to see the gun that she supposedly shot herself with, and they showed us a box. It was just a box, which didn't tell me much of anything.

But in this picture where Susan lay dead, they said, "This is the way we found her; her body was undisturbed by anybody until the French police came or the Moroccan police and took charge." She was lying there with a bullet hole in her head. Her arms were crossed on her chest, and in the middle of her breasts on her arms -- or underneath her arms was this .22 caliber, long-barrelled revolver. How could anybody shoot themselves in the head and then put the gun on their breast, being between two clasped hands -- how do you do that? How can you shoot yourself in the middle of the head with a long-barrelled revolver, holding it out like this? I think you'd have to use two hands and then you might miss.

But the other thing is, in all the suicides that I know anything about, I find it very rare that a woman commits suicide by gunshell. It could be pills or something of that nature, but hardly ever a gun.

But then, we went next to a so-called hospital where this autopsy was performed and we ran into the same situation over there.

I asked the police, before I left, for these reports. They said, "No, you can't have it." "Well, what about the picture?" "No, can't have it." "How about a copy of the picture?" "No, can't have it."

Well, after going over to the -- to this morgue going over to this hospital -- and it was extremely dirty. of course, I don't know -- you know, most people feel like things in foreign countries are going to be the same as they are in this country. They're not. A place like Morocco is -- it's a monarchy. And of course, the King of Morocco - as it is today - he runs that country totally, and whatever he says is the law. It carries all the way down from the top to the lowest citizen. If he wants somebody dead, they're dead; it's that simple.

And of course, anyone who's a citizen of this country -- when you get into a problem in any of those foreign countries, even though they are like Morocco, you're subject to the laws of that country. You're -- because of the fact that you're a United States citizen doesn't have anything to do with it.

But then, the next place we went to was the hospital, and the doctor in charge was wearing something that looked like a long, white gown that was dirty and blood stained. It looked like he'd worn it for maybe a week. And he had patients there.

He showed us into this operating room and, honestly I've seen butcher shops that look better. This is where the autopsy was done. I had a man with me from the Church of Scientology, Peter Warren, and he said, "We ordered the autopsy." He said, "We had her brain removed; we had all of her intestines removed." I said, "Why?" He said, "We were looking for drugs. We suspected her of using drugs."

Well, I said, "Where's her body? I was told, before I came over, by you people that her body would be in a refrigerated morgue and that I would be able to identify her." That's why I went there. I went there to identify my daughter's body because I didn't believe she was dead. I wanted to see her body. And he said, "It isn't here." This is the doctor at the hospital. He said, "I don't know where it is."

So, we went to another place, this records house. And we couldn't -- didn't find out anything there. And we finally wound up in the office of the Pasha. Well, he Pasha is the same as a mayor of a city. Well, the Pasha was a very small, well-dressed individual, with a little moustache, very arrogant little guy. He took in the whole case -- I'm not no reflection, your Honor.

But anyway, he wound up kind of -- in view of every thing that had happened, he said that "All these records are going to be transferred to Marrakech," which was the provincial capital some hundred and fifty miles away. He said, "if you want to pursue this matter any farther, you'll have to engage a Moroccan attorney, you'll have to wait for a court date, and you'll have to be here." "How long is that going to take?" "Well," he said, "it could be a month, it could be six months." Well, I knew there was nothing -- you know, there wasn't anything further to do. And then, it was getting pretty well along in the day, so we decided, "Well, we better stay in Safi that night because going back to Casablanca was about a hundred miles." And the roads over there are full of wandering people. They have no home; they just wander. wherever they happen to be, that's where they stay. You know, the country's warm; usually, the weather's not too bad. So, we said, "Well, better not to hit one of those guys or get into any kind of trouble." If you're driving on the road and you happen to run into one of those Moroccan you know, wanderers -- I suppose, if the Pasha ran over one of them, nothing would be said; it would be okay. But if I ran over one of them, I think I'd be in jail forever. So, we decided against that.

There's a hotel in Safi called the Metropole Hotel, so we decided we'd stay there that night. We went o ver there -and you don't do anything in Morocco without a passport. You have to have a passport to register in a hotel, to get a train, to do anything you want to.

And we went over and registered in the hotel, using our passports. And Jack Galbraith said, "Well, I told my wife in Casablanca," he said, "that I was going to be back tonight." He said, "In this country, you make sure you tell people where you're at."

So, he couldn't get through to his wife. They don' have much of a telephone system there. It runs and then it doesn't run. So, he tried to call his wife and he couldn't get through to her. So, he finally called this -- the office of the counsel and he got through there, and he asked if: they wouldn't mind telling his wife that he was going to stay over and where he was. She got the message right away. And it was about an hour later - I guess it must have been about ten o'clock at night - this hotel -- she called down there to the hotel and wanted to talk to him and find out where he was and how long he was going to be gone. And the desk clerk that answered the call said, "We never even heard of that man. we never heard of George Meister." We were registered there.

We later found out that Lafayette Ronald Hubbard had the top floor at that hotel. This was a practice that he -- quite -oh, it was usual with him at all these places where -- this ship, Apollo, was a rather small ship. I remember the thing I saw when I was overseas, the troop transport. And when I was over in North Africa in the early forties during World War II, they were using that thing for a troop transport. It was what we considered a small ship.

But what Hubbard would do is he'd be on board that ship when it was under way and then, when they'd get into these towns, he'd take over, maybe, the top floor of the hotel and he'd stay there with all his messengers, you know, his girls that -- with the ashtrays and so forth that Mrs. Hartwell described to you. That really did happen. So -- and the people on board the ship would be it was a very confining thing, very, very confining Yeah, I think I better start -- how did Susan get into Scientology, okay? This happened when she was -- Susan was twenty-two years old and she had gone to school for quite some time. And she decided that she was going to San Francisco from Colorado. So, she said she wanted to go out there and work. Fine. So, she and another -- about four of them went but there.

She got a job. She had a couple of jobs, as a matter of fact. And one job that she had was with Grolier Publishing Company, selling magazine subscription by telephone. And that's where she met a couple of people. They were very interesting and they were, you know, learning to sell by telephone, and these people were Scientologists. They were apparently learning Grolier Publishing Company's techniques on how to sell by telephone. But she went over to this Scientology org., I suppose is what it was, on Mason Street in San Francisco, and she was very impressed at her reception. At the reception', everyone was very neat, and the girl that was on the desk was very orderly. And she was treated very well. Scientology was really presented to her as first class. She was impressed; she was really impressed with this. So, she just kept going back.

And she would -- she got this free personality test. She liked that. We got a letter from her and -stating that-she was in this Scientology and she thought it was something that was real good, and she was interested in it. So, this was in the fall of 1970.

And then, she wanted to go to Los Angeles. She said, "In order to pursue this further, in order to become more advanced in this thing, it's necessary that I go to Los Angeles."

She came home for Christmas in 1970. Then, she went back to San Francisco and -- let's see, she left there in the latter part of January; she went to San Francisco. That was the last time I ever saw her alive. She went to San Francisco -- or to Los Angeles.

Then, we found out later that she went from Los Angeles -- she didn't stay there very long. But she went from there to New York to Lisbon, Portugal, and from Portugal she went to Casablanca. And that's where she caught the ship. MR. FLYNN: I'd like to put a couple of letters on the overhead projector.

And for the record, the ship was then the Flag Land Base. And the Flag Land Base for the Church of Scientology now is Clearwater --

MR. LeCHER: Florida.

MR. FLYNN: -- Florida.

MRS. G3-ARVEY: Flag Base not Flag Land Base.

MR. LeCHER: So, then, we would have to assume that same mentality that ran the ship is running this ship here.

MR. FLYNN: They're they're -- with regard to the organizational policy that concerns the Commissioner as concerns the Church of Scientology, is one of the reasons for this testimony. We will -- after we create he factual record, from a legal perspective that will be arrived at.

The policies that run the Church of' Scientology, as I believe the evidence will eventually show and is beginning to show, are uniform throughout the world, and those policies are followed everywhere.

MR. CALDERBANK: Counsel, I hate to ask this but Does Mr. Meister know about the specific policy, R 245?

MR. MEISTER: Yeah, I'll get to that.

MR. FLYNN: I believe he is aware of R 245. The next exhibit is a letter, dated 8/5/71 from Flag, and it's addressed to Susan's mother in Greeley, Colorado. And it reads: "Do you recall talking to me about World War II?

MR. GREENE: Three.

MR. FLYNN: -- or "World War III and where it would start if it were to start? Father and most everyone else maintained that it would start in either China or Russia versus U.S. And you said, 'Oh, no, it would originate in Germany, that the Nazis hadn't given up yet.'

"Well, babe, you were right. There is a new Nazi resurgence taking place in Germany. So, now it's a race between the good guys in the white hats, Scientologists, and the Leipzig death camps," parentheses, "(Nazis), the bad guys in the black hats. We'll win, of course, but the game is exciting. Truth is stranger than fiction. As Alice in Wonderland says, 'Things get curiouser and curiouser. Get into Scientology now. It's fantastic.

"Love, Susan."

(A copy of a letter, dated 8/5/71 was marked as Exhibit No. 41, as of this date.)

MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, can her father identify that as being her writing?

MR. MEISTER: Definitely.

MR. BERFIELD: That is her

MR. MEISTER: There's no doubt about it.

MR. FLYNN: Was that Exhibit 41?


MR. MEISTER: I might add one thing. Susan's penmanship she wrote -- that was her style of writing. But usually, her lettering was spaced very well. If you notice the letter here, the writing is big and small; it runs together. And this is an indication to me that something just wasn't right with her.

MR. FLYNN: Okay. And the next exhibit is a letter, dated 12/8/71, from Flag, and it's addressed to "Dear Family" in Greeley Colorado. You will note, I believe, the last letter was dated in August, some four or five months before that. And it says: "Dear Family, I just had a session, an auditing session. I feel great, great, great and my life is expanding, expanding and is all Scientology. Hurry up, hurry, hurry. Be a friend to yourselves, get into this stuff now. "It's more precious than gold. It's the best thing that's ever, ever, ever, ever come along.

"Love, Susan.

(A copy of a letter, dated 12,15/71, from Susan Meister was marked as Exhibit No.. 42, as of this date.)

MRS. GARVEY: She was found dead, when?

MR. CALDERBANK: June 25th, 1971.

MR. LeCHER: June 25th.

MR. CALDERBANK: One of the letters I saw had a 12/5/71 date on it. Could that be, instead, 5/12/71, June 12th, 1971, a few days before she was -

MR. MEISTER: What she was doing then was going into a military-type date. Her first letter, before she got in onto this ship and so forth -- things suddenly started to take on a military character, like, it would be 15 June '71

MR. CALDERBANK: So, in other words, that letter that you saw on the screen was two weeks before her reported death day?

MR. MEISTER: This last one?


MR. MEISTER: No. This last one here was dated that's April -- no. The one in which she's really not coherent, in my judgment, was May the 12th, 1971. She has it "12/5/71," which, actually, would be May the 12th.

MR. FLYNN: I think I read 12/8.

MR. MEISTER: Yeah. But everything starts to take on the military character. So, then she comes -- okay, then, what happens, when the Maren -- the Reverend Maren came to our home in Greeley, they left so many unanswered questions the only thing he left with us was his address in Los Angeles; that's the headquarters of the Church of Scientology.

And shortly after that, I received a letter, signed by a Reverend Thomas from the Church of Scientology, and they were -- he says here, "First, may I express my sincere condolences for your bereavement in what must be a shocking and tragic loss."

I had expressed to Arthur Maren my desire that my daughter's body be returned to the United States. Under no condition would I allow my daughter to be buried on foreign soil and, especially, in Morocco.

So, this being a real demand of mine -- then, I get this letter, when he gets back, this is the 7th of July 1971: "May I first express my deep and sincere condolences for your bereavement in what must be a shocking and tragic loss. For myself as well as the Church, may I express the hope that the spirit of your daughter may yet find the tranquility that it has so restlessly sought.

"The purpose of Reverend Maren's visit was an expression of the solicitude that any Church might feel on the loss of a parishioner. Reverend Maren acted as an emissary for the Church and, at the request of Captain Starkey, was entrusted with easing the distress of you and your family of what might otherwise have been a belated and, perhaps, abruptly impersonal notification by officialdom.

"As your request to Reverend Maren for additional information, I fully understand your concern. Official details relative to the tragedy, I'm sure, will be contained in the duly recorded testimonies supplied in the inquest, as well as the coroner's report, and the death certificate, which I am informed is presently en route to you. These documents will undoubtedly contain the detailed information which you, as a relative of the deceased, should expect to receive regarding the circumstances of the death.

"I'm sure that you understand that the ship's company, an independent Panamanian agency, is under no obligation to the Church of Scientology of California to provide information that it finds deemed to go beyond the scope of a reasonable inquiry by bereaved parents.

"In addition to the details Reverend Maren has already communicated to you, further details as to the Church activity and doctrine can be found in the literature in the Book of Ceremonies, which is included." They sent me a copy of the Book of Ceremonies.

"As to the shipping of the remains, the ship's captain has indicated that should you wish a local, Christian burial with monument, such will be arranged at a Christian cemetery in Morocco at company expense. Now, if the remains are to be shipped to the United States, which I understand is your desire, the company regrettably is not in a position to bear the considerable costs involved. And please call me further should you have any need for the service of the good office of the Church." And this is signed by Reverend Robert Thomas.

MR. LeCHER.: Did you ever get the body back?

MR. MEISTER: Yes, I did, your Honor. And how I did -- going to Morocco and after this battle is then when the real war started. It was a tug of war between me and the Church of Scientology.

Then, several little harassing things started to happen, like, letters coming, oh

MR. LeCHER: Was a regular autopsy ever performed on your daughter that you could trust?

MR. MEISTER: No, sir, it wasn't. The reason it --

MR. LeCHER: Did it remain in Morocco under orders to do the autopsy?

MR. MEISTER: Yeah, that was the autopsy. Yes. But there was never --

MR. LeCHER: Official

MR. MEISTER: -- an official order signed by a doctor or a pathologist or anything like that, nothing.

MR. LeCHER: Is that standard procedure in Morocco?

MR. MEISTER: There is no procedure in Morocco. And the Death Certificate this is it, which is actually a worthless document. It shows no sign -- no cause of death.

And what you have to do is just go on their word. But really, what happened -- the only thing that we could go by of any explanation came in the letters from the Church of Scientology; we never did receive anything from the Moroccan government.

I was told, again, that if I intended to pursue it I would have to engage a Moroccan attorney and go to Marrakech and get the facts, which, nothing would have happened.

But anyway, what happened is this tug of war between me and the Church of Scientology and the Moroccan government in getting Susan's body back was really quite a runaround for the Christian burial that I thought it deserved.

And then, I was -- I didn't have any idea what happened to her body. But I later learned that she had been buried in a Moroccan cemetery in Casablanca in a burlap sack. I became so insistent on this, they finally dug up her body and a local mortician in Casablanca - they what they have to do is -- the procedure they have to do in shipping bodies out of Morocco and into the United States - I think those procedures are more of an advantage by the United States government - they have to put -- place the body in an airtight container. In this case it was a tin container and it was soldered shut and then they put it in a wooden coffin after that. And in that condition it was transported to the United States.

Okay. Ten days prior to this, we knew that Susan's body was coming. There comes a letter to the Well Count Health Department, Greeley, Colorado: "Sirs, Recently this reporter had disclosed to him some rather alarming news. I once had to cover a story in a small town such as Greeley, which had a rather primitive but nevertheless adequate health facilities. They chose to ignore a cholera warning from the World Health organization and, believe me, the results are not pleasant.

"There has been a cholera epidemic in Morocco, and everyone leaving the country is required to have a cholera shot before leaving, and there is a public health campaign to get all citizens vaccinated. However, there is a shortage of vaccine. There have been a recorded two to three hundred deaths. And it's been brought to my attention that the daughter of one, George Meister, died in Morocco, either by accident or from cholera, probably the latter. Meister either already has or is in the process of bringing back the body to Greeley, and an epi" -- I don't know how to pronounce that word.

MR. CALDERBANK: Epidemiologist.

MR. MEISTER: Okay. -- "an epidemiologist that I have talked to concerning this said that this was pure insanity and that he knew of one exact such case that caused an outbreak of cholera. And I urge you to handle this health threat to all Greeley citizens. Everybody can be affected by this, and we cannot be complacent with such a danger. "My informant believes the funeral home where the body is shipped is The Masons in Greeley. Please act quickly as lives could very well hang in the balance. I'm sending copies of this letter to most health official in the entire State of Colorado. My attorney has advise me not to reveal my name due to possible legal hazards, but if necessary I will do so to the press for my children live here and I have seen a cholera epidemic.

"Very sincerely, a citizen."

MR. LeCHER: Who was that letter sent to?

MR. MEISTER: I beg your pardon?

MR. LeCHER: Who was that letter sent to?

MR. MEISTER: Well County Health Department.

MR. LeCHER: The county health department. Was it also sent to the press?

MR. MEISTER: No, it wasn't. The woman in the county health department knew of Susan's death. And actually, Susan had worked -- this is in conjunction with Well County General Hospital. And she had known Susan before Susan got involved in Scientology. And she knew the fact that Susan's body was coming to Greeley, and she called me and said, "Here's a letter," she said, "that makes me sick."

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Meister

MRS. GARVEY: Did you

MR. SHOEMAKER: -- what is the date on that 'Letter?

MR. MEISTER: This letter is dated August the 19th, 1971.

MR. CALDERBANK: Where did it originate from?

MR. MEISTER: Nobody knows. I have -- I've received all kinds of anonymous letters like this.

MR. CALDERBANK: Is there a postmark on the

MR. MEISTER: It was postmarked Greeley. It was mailed in Greeley.

MR. FLYNN: In fact, it's going to be marked as an exhibit, there is a policy of the Church called Third Partying, which will be brought up at a later time. And I believe that's all the letter from Mr. Thomas, dated 7 July, 1971, will be the next exhibit. And that letter, dated August 19th, 1971, will be the exhibit after that.

And I believe that that's all the direct testimony of Mr. Meister.

(A copy of a letter, dated July 7, 1971, to George Meister, was marked as Exhibit No. 43, as of this date A copy of a letter, dated August 1 1971, to Well County Health Department, was marked as Exhibit No. 44 as of this date.)

MR. MEISTER: There's just thing I wanted to add. This has been very hard for me to do and -- well, ten years ago I couldn't have done this. I couldn't work; I couldn't function for a year. But it's -- I'm hopeful that this is going to help somebody.

What I wanted to say is when we did go to Morocco, Jack Galbraith and I were there and we went on board the ship. I took thirty rolls of film. And coming back in the car -- we got back to Casablanca and my camera was there but the film was gone; the film was stolen.

They -- when I went on board the ship, I went over there with the express idea of seeing Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. I knew nothing about the Church of Scientology I knew nothing about what their doctrine was; I didn't know anything about how they operated. I did know that my daughter was dead, and I wanted to talk to Lafayette Ronald Hubbard as one father to another because he has a daughter, Diana, who was approximately the same age as my daughter. And I thought that, under any circumstance like that, one father would be glad to talk to the other. He refused to see me.

MR. LeCHER: He refused to see you? Did he know -

MR. MEISTER: Yes. He was on the ship. We were -- when I went on the ship to look around, they said, "This is where Susan slept." And then they said, "This is where she died." And it was a little cabin, you know, where -- it appeared it was near the pilot house, and it appeared, like, this would be a place where somebody who was on watch, you know, might catch a few winks prior to going on watch again or something. But this is the cabin where they supposedly found the body.

Now, the way Susan is dressed here, this is exactly the dress she had on when she was laying there in death. And this dress was a dress that her mother made for her before she left.

And in effect, in my judgment, this is a Class A uniform.

In the United States Army when the General Court Martial convenes, you must wear a Class A uniform with all your ribbons. And the sentence of the Court Martial is carried out and they either shoot you or hang you or take your ribbons off. I found her, in my judgment, in a Class A uniform.

You can draw your own conclusions. I know what I think.

MR. LeCHER: I better say, for the record -- well, first of all, I want to thank you for telling this very, very tragic story. Of course, it is not the function of this Commission to determine the facts of your daughter's death; however, we accept this evidence as helpful as shedding some light on the history of the Flag organization.

I -- the stories are getting more bizarre and more bizarre as each witness comes before us.

I really don't have any questions for you, either, at this point. I, frankly, don't know what to ask you. I just know that they certainly don't seem to -- I don't know of any organization -- I don't know how they could .act that way. They're acting -- frankly, from what you tell me, they're acting more like animals than human beings. And the way they disregarded your daughter's body is just tragic.

Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: I asked the Hartwells what they could tell Clearwater because they were some older people, and I was thinking about the older people. But, Mr. Meister, I have a daughter, too, and I don't think you have to tell the people of Clearwater anything.

MR. MEISTER: Well, you know, in the case of everyone who's been here at this microphone and have spoken, they've been in some way connected with the Church of Scientology. I haven't; I never will; and I hope to God-that no one else will.

MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey. I'm sorry, are you through, Mr.


MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey, do you have any questions?

MRS. GARVEY: Mr. Meister, on your outline, on page three, there's some comment in here about flying out of Morocco: "Scientologists urgently contacted Meister and tried to settle by offering cash. At the airport he was approached by a large man who told Mr. Meister, 'We are watching you.'" Okay. In the letter, dated November 11th, from the Assistant Secretary of State, "the Apollo's port captain threatened in the presence of the American Vice Counsel from Casablanca, William Galbraith, that he had enough material, including illicit photographs of Miss Meister, to smear Miss Meister."

Do you want to comment on that section of that?

MR. MEISTER: Sure. Well, what happened was on this -- let's see, on the first part of this, my flight was scheduled to go back to New York from Casablanca on Sunday. Pan Am was only running one flight a week. And everything that we could do I arrived there on Sunday. And everything that we could do had been done. I mean, in my judgment, from the experience we had in Safi, it was such total frustration. I was getting nowhere.

And the longer I stayed in Morocco, the less comfortable I was. And I was very uneasy. And I was -- well, having been in Morocco before and knowing what went on, human life doesn't mean anything in that part of the world. I really didn't expect to come back when I went over there.

So, I was going down the elevator of this Mar Harbor Hotel, and I happened to see a man there that looked American. And I spoke to him and asked him if he was from the States, and he said, "Yeah." He said, "I'm the manager of Pan Am." I said, "Good. Is there a flight" -- this is Wednesday. I said, "Have you got a flight out of here? He said, "No. We don't have anything until Sunday that's going to New York." I said, "No, but is any other airline going?" He said, "Yeah, Lufthansa's got a flight tomorrow morning that goes to Frankfort, Germany." I said, "Can you get me on it?" He said, "Sure." I said, "That's fine."

So, after -- he went over to his office, and I went by a roundabout way and got over there because I was followed and watched all the time that I was there. I went over and had my ticket reworked for Frankfort.

And the following morning, about seven o'clock in the morning, I was paying my bill. The Scientologists told me they would take care of all my expenses. They never took care of anything. My hotel bill was, like, seven hundred dollars for four days, and I was told by the hotel that "You'll have to pay it." So, I knew that they meant exactly what they said or I'd have wound up in some Moroccan jail. So, luckily, they took an American Express card, and I paid the bill.

But as I was getting ready to leave, Peter Warren, who was usually late to any kind of a function we had, here he came. And this man was very upset. He said, "I have to talk to you." I said, "Okay, what do you want?" I said, "I can give you five minutes, I'm leaving." So, he said, "Come over here," and we went over to the far corner of the lobby. He said, "We want to make a settlement with you." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "We want to make a cash settlement."

He did mention a sum of money. And I thought to myself, "If this was a suicide, if all these facts -- why the settlement? Why is this necessary now?" So, I told him, I said, "You know the address of my cousin in Scottsbluff, Nebraska. He's my lawyer. If you want to make any settlements, talk to him; don't talk to me." So, I left. Then, when I got to the airport, we had to take cholera shots before we got out of Morocco. I think something was going on at that time. And about the time I got through these cholera shots and I was getting ready to board this flight, this guy -- he was a large man, very immaculately dressed, with a blue pinstripe suit, carrying a briefcase. He set the briefcase down and he grabbed me and he spun me around like a top. And he said, "We're watching you." And he said, "When you get back to the States, we want you to know this." It scared the hell out of me.

So, I called Jack Galbraith. There was one of these phony pink telephones in the airport that took a slug about the size of a silver dollar. It was a brass token, and the thing worked, luckily, and I got a hold of him and told him what happened. He said, "They were trying to scare you." I said, "They did." So, I jumped on the flight and left.

Now, you mentioned another point. What was that?

MRS. GARVEY: It then went on to the fact that the Vice Counsel from Casablanca had enough well, was threatened -- "the Apollo's port captain threatened in the presence of the American Vice Counsel from Casablanca that he had enough material, including illicit photographs of Miss Meister, to smear Meister."

MR. MEISTER: Yes. On one occasion I received an anonymous letter from somebody named -- it was signed Jack Donahue, General Delivery, San Francisco, California, stating that Mr. Donahue says that "I've been contacted by certain persons about the purchase of certain films of interest to you. I was offered a thousand dollars. Perhaps, you might like to purchase these at a slightly increased price? If so, please write me in care of General Delivery, San Francisco. Sincerely, Jack Donahue."

I turned these over to the United States Postal Inspector, and they set up an elaborate trap at the post office in San Francisco. And they had done surveillance on this, like, for a month. Nobody ever picked up anything.

MR. LeCHER: Was this before your daughter's death or after?


MR. LeCHER: What -

MR. MEISTER: Then the other thing was in Jack Galbraith's case, he was Vice Counsel. He was called by the Church of Scientology, the ship, Apollo, to come down to Safi; they wanted to talk to him after I left. See, my sudden departure was -- I was scheduled and they were scheduled to leave Sunday, but I thought I better get out of there fast. And I got out of there, and I was on that Lufthansa flight and I was in Frankfurt, Germany relaxing before they were aware that I was gone, I guess.

This letter -- Jack went down there anyway. And when he went down there, they accused him of putting Coca Cola in their engines to ruin them. And they said, hat "We can make things plenty hot for a nosy Vice Counsel coming around here." And they -- this is a letter that I got from his wife. And it, in part, says, "Jack is still working to fulfill your request and get some information but: has had little success so far. The crew of the famous ship tried to make things very difficult for Jack with various government authorities, including the Senate and the White House. However, apparently, there was no permanent damage done, except, perhaps, to the ship itself, which had to go to such drastic lengths to cover up something. But be careful."

MR. LeCHER: Any other questions, Mrs. Garvey?

MRS. GARVEY: I think someone mentioned about R 245. Are you aware of that?


MRS. GARVEY: Is that after you -- after your daughter died you became aware of that or -

MR. MEISTER: Oh, this? I didn't know anything about this cult until after that, after my daughter's death.

MRS. GARVEY: -- So, everything that you now know about Scientology, you've learned since she has died and the


MRS. GARVEY: -- investigation. Okay.

MR. MEISTER: Sure. As more things come out, I think this is a very beneficial thing that you people are doing here. I have a feeling, in my own mind, that you're going to save some lives.

MRS. GARVEY: We hope so.

MR. LeCHER: All along we've felt the people have a right to know, and that's why we're holding these hearings. Mr. Meister

MR. MEISTER: That's the reason I gave up my business and came here.

MR. LeCHER: We appreciate it.

MR. HATCHETT: Mr. Meister, thank you, and I will search for the truth. I don't care to question you.

MR. MEISTER: Well, you can go ahead because I'll be glad to answer.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Meister, I had a -- you had indicated that you've been having -- that you had a lot of trouble with the Church of Scientology.

Those letters that you read, such as that anonymous letter to the health officials and so forth -- have other things continued to happen to you?

MR. MEISTER: My telephone's been tapped.

MR. CALDERBANK: How do you know?

MR. MEISTER: It was tapped at the telephone company.

MR. SHOEMAKER: It was found


MR. SHOEMAKER: -- a tap?


MR. HATCHETT: At the telephone

MR. MEISTER: Oh, yeah, yeah. They do that. They've infiltrated government offices. They went into Washington, D.C. They went into the FBI offices and

MR. HATCHETT: Oh, we know that.

MR. MEISTER: Oh, yeah. Well, infiltrating the telephone company is child's play compared to that.

MR. HATCHETT: I'm sorry for that outburst. I wasn't going to ask you a question.

MR. MEISTER: Yeah, they do -

MR. HATCHETT: Do you mean, in your mind, the telephone company in Greeley in that office, your telephone was

MR. MEISTER: Yes. Your telephone could be tapped right here in Clearwater in the telephone office.

MR. HATCHETT: I have devices on mine -

MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you have -- are there other types of examples, Mr. Meister? I mean, have they continued to send you such letters?

MR. MEISTER: Oh, I've received death threats on the telephone.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You have?

MR. MEISTER: Sure. Somebody was going to blast me like they blasted my daughter. Well, they didn't say identify themselves, but I've been told that "You're going to get the same thing your daughter got."

MR. SHOEMAKER: Has this type of harassment continued recently?

MR. MEISTER: No, no. It continued up until the time the FBI made that raid. And after the time the FBI made that raid, of course, they were exposed to the publicity nationally that they were. It -- that's been the end of that.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank.

MR. CALDERBANK: Just one. Mr. Meister, did you know at that time that the Apollo, the ship, was the Flag Base, the quote, unquote "Flag"?

MR. MEISTER: Not before I went there, no. I didn't even know of its existence.

MR. CALDERBANK: The reason we question you, as the Mayor so -- put it so well previously is now we have Flag here, and we are trying to discover whether or not the same policies that have existed throughout

MR. MEISTER: I don't know.

MR. CALDERBANK: -- are still here in Clearwater.

MR. MEISTER: I don't know. But I know, from the way this thing was put together, it was -- it was quite ingenious. This thing this ship was purchased in England; it was a war surplus item, and they put it to sea. But it was under Panamania registry; it was making -- in foreign ports. Hubbard was the Commodore on board and, of course, legally, under admiralty law, on the high seas and in foreign ports, under the law.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you -- did you verify by dental records or whatever that the body that -

MR. MEISTER: Yes, I did. It was an unpleasant experience. We opened this box and -- myself, and our family dentist confirmed that it was, in fact, Susan's body. Because at that point in time, I wasn't ready to accept anything. And yes, it is. She's -- my daughter is buried in that grave and in that casket.

MR. CALDERBANK: Counsel in Morocco, were they -- or did they try to obtain other -- especially, the photo, the -

MR. MEISTER: No. Everything in -- it seemed to me like the Scientologists were in total control.

MR. CALDERBANK: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: I'm just curious: When you went to Mr. Hubbard was on the ship and you went to him as a father speaking to a father, he wouldn't even talk to you?

MR. MEISTER: He refused to see me.

MR. LeCHER: Even after the tragedy and why you came that great distance, he just -- any reason why he wouldn't see you?

MR. MEISTER: He didn't give a reason. We sent one of his people to ask him, because we knew he was aboard the ship. But the reply came back, "No."

MR. LeCHER: I have no further questions. I thank you, Mr. Meister.

MR. FLYNN: Mayor, I think that's all that I would put in today. I would just note that for the record, that there have been two documents which I submitted -- to date, of the Church of Scientology and, if need be, we Can put into the record pertaining to those documents.

Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Flynn, we have, probably, one more day, unless we extend these hearings. About how many more witnesses do you have? How much time will you - much more time will you need?

MRS. GARVEY: We can't do it on Sunday; that's Mother's Day.

MR. FLYNN: I have seven more. What I'm going to have to do tonight is try to -- try to restrict their testimony to specific areas; there'll be a lot left out. But in view of the time constraints that we're suffering from, and -- along the documents that are going to go into evidence, I will mark them and-leave them for your perusal. Some documents pertaining to use of auditing information on a persistent basis by the Church of Scientology, tomorrow I will put on the overhead projector.

I would hope that I could get most of the testimony of those seven witnesses in tomorrow.

MR. LeCHER: We've been averaging about two and-a-half witnesses a day. And so -

MR. SHOEMAKER: Commissioners, it might be that, you know, depending on how it goes, obviously - we want to determine it as quickly as we could - but we might consider going a little longer tomorrow night, if that's -

MRS. GARVEY: Oh, sure, even lunch hour.

MR. HATCHETT: Let's take a shorter lunch hour.

MR. CALDERBANK: How about the pleasure of the Commission? Is there a person, Mr. Flynn, here that you're -- would you like to hear another witness? It 's about five-thirty; we don't have a City Commission meet ing. If we could get one more witness in, I think we'd come closer to the deadline.

MR. LeCHER: No. I would rather -

MRS. GARVEY: Is Vision Cable running out of time?

MR. LeCHER: -- have a -- Vision is running out of tape. I would rather meet -- take a shorter lunch hour and possibly, work longer tomorrow night, if we have to.


MR. LeCHER: Do you have any well, that's another option. Do you have any indication, Mr. Flynn, that we will have a meeting Monday with the Scientologists?

MR. FLYNN: I have no idea. I haven't heard anything from them. As I said in my opening, I would hope that they would respond, and I hope that this Commission would have the opportunity to question them.

MR. LeCHER: At this point

MR. FLYNN: I don't know.

MR. LeCHER: -- we have no indication that Scientology will respond by Monday.

MR. CALDERBANK: I'd just like to throw this out: There is one person that I've -- I've seen his name throughout these testimonies.

Does anyone know, the witnesses or counsel, perhaps, if Artie Maren is still a member of the organization? I would that is one person -- I see his name continually through the testimony, and I think that would be one person that I feel the Church of Scientology would want to have come before us. And I would gladly like to see Mr. Maren testify here

MR. FLYNN: Since Mr. Maren was in the -- a member of the Guardian's Office, Public Relations Division, at a very high level, I think that would be a very appropriate suggestion.

MR. LeCHER: If you're out there, we'd like to talk to you Monday.

The meeting is adjourned.

(Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned until Saturday, May 8, 1982, at 9:00 a.m.)


I, Karen E. Rizman, a certified court reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify that the foregoing hearing transcript of the City of Clearwater Commission Hearings Re: The Church of Scientology, pages 4 through 345, is a true and accurate transcription of my dictated tape recordings of-the proceedings taken at the Clearwater City Hall, Clearwater Florida, on Friday, May 7, 1982.

Karen E. Rizman
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:39 pm

Part 1 of 15

Day 4: May 8, 1982


Clearwater, Florida
May 8, 1982
Morning Session

Commissioners, staff, consultants, members of the audience, those at home, welcome to the fourth day of the hearings, the public hearings, with respect to Scientology. This will probably be our fourth and final day for the City Commission. We do hope that the Scientologists will take advantage of their time, starting Monday, and give their side of the issue and, also, their witnesses. We will be here Monday, anticipating their presence here.

Before we start, I would like to — I would like to start this meeting with a prayer given by Commissioner Jim Calderbank and then, rise, for the Pledge of Allegiance led by Police Chief, Sidney Klein.


Dear Father, we ask you for the strength and the ability to get through these very difficult times. We ask for your love and also your help in deciding what is the best for the people and the citizens of the City of Clearwater.

We hope that we follow your way, and that every day we add a new challenge and we can meet it with great minds and with conviction. Amen.



(Whereupon, the Pledge of Allegiance was recited.)


Mr. Flynn, do you have any comments you'd like to make before we start these proceedings?


I do, Mayor.

Mayor LeCher and members of the Commission, I'd like to make some brief comments about some of the things I stated in my opening that are particularly applicable to the evidence today. And that — these comments, basically, relate to the purposes of these hearings which are not prosecutorial. We're not here to collect criminal evidence concerning the Church of Scientology in terms of trying to obtain indictments against individuals or of the organization. What we're here to do is to determine whether or not there've been deceptive sales and trade practices in connection with a number of different items of evidence that have been adduced already before this Commission and will continue to be presented today.

And those, basically, involve: deception concerning Mr. Hubbard's background upon which members have relied or would not have joined if they had known about it; confidentiality of auditing information; deception of purposes, goals, and actions of the organization; deception concerning the article or device warning in the case that I referred to in my opening, which we will be getting in today; and deception concerning legal documents and the legal status of individuals who are entering or leaving the church; the conditions at the Fort Harrison, both as they actually exist and as they are represented to individuals who are coming to the city; and some issues pertaining to the education of children.

With regard to all of those issues, it is important to keep in mind that, in order to prove that the — or to present sufficient evidence before this Commission that those practices have been taking place, the policies of the corporation have got to be examined and they have got to be examined over a long period of time to determine whether they are sustained policies, policies that not only appear in writing but in practice. And the only appropriate procedure for this Commission to follow to determine whether or not those practices — or those policies are actually practiced is to determine whether they're standardized and uniform. And the focus of that inquiry is whether or not they have been taking place over a long period of time as applied to a different cross section of people by which this Commission can draw the inference that, in fact, they are uniform policies; they're uniformly practiced in many different locations, including the City of Clearwater; and that they do involve — excuse me — they do involve the deceptive practices about which this Commission is concerned.

Thank you.
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Postby admin » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:40 pm

Part 2 of 15


MR. LeCHER: Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

Do you have a witness?

Will you please be sworn in by the Clerk?

LaVENDA VAN SCHAICK, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: What is your name, please?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: LaVenda Van Schaick.

MR. LeCHER: Miss Van Schaick, I'm going to ask you the same basic, five standard questions I will ask every witness that we will hear in these proceedings.

Number one: Are you appearing today to testify under oath voluntarily?


MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than your expenses coming to Clearwater?


MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?


MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?


MR. LeCHER: Several.

Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?


MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Would you like to make a statement or would you like to go over what your story is?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I'd like to start — I don't want to get into the organization, basically, as to what L. Ron Hubbard is because there's a lot of testimony that's already been done on that.

Basically, what I want to get into is a brief history. I started in Scientology when I was sixteen years old. I started on staff when I was twenty-one years old. Approximately, nine years of my life went into Scientology. I currently do have a lawsuit against Scientology and they have had several lawsuits against me which are still pending.

Fair Game: I've had my house bugged, my telephone bugged. I've had several episodes that have happened to me since I started the lawsuit.

My origination of why I got basically into the lawsuit is because: One, the cover up of Quentin's death in Las Vegas, which was L. Ron Hubbard's son, which is still a mystery; two, my brother-in-law shot his brains out with a gun. There are other cases that are similar to that. Three, the misrepresentation of what, actually, Scientology is doing.

MR. LeCHER: Would you like to expound on any of these particular points?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, basically, what I relied on when I got into Scientology — I thought it was like a Vista organization. I was recruited under the deception that we were going to do exploration in Egypt. I thought it was a scientific thing that we were involved in. The fraud that Hubbard was a nuclear physicist and a scientist we were recruited in.

There was quite a few of us at that time that were going to school at the University of Las Vegas, and we thought that, basically, what the group was was like Vista, some kind of help organization that was doing research in different areas. We didn't realize what we were getting into.

MR. LeCHER: Can you tell us a little more about the misuse of auditing —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The first day that I was —

MR. LeCHER: — severing family relations?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The first day I started court proceedings — well, actually, before I started court proceedings, my PC folders were sent to the press, plus all the information in my PC folders was sent as public knowledge for anyone to have access to. It has been a lie since day one that your PC folders are confidential.

MR. LeCHER: Excuse me. What's a PC folder?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: PC folders — any information that you personally — if you're upset with your husband, something you did when you were younger, something very — it's anything personal that you have in your life that you wouldn't even, maybe, tell Mom and Dad. It's kind of like sitting down and doing a confession to a Catholic priest, and it's supposed to be very confidential. It is not. It is public information.

And that was another one of the originations that actually started it. It is not something — people that are in Scientology get the idea that your PC folder is confidential; it is not.

MR. LeCHER: What kind of relationship did this have on your family?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Divorce, split between the parents — of course, they had me disconnect from my parents — a child, who is now eleven and stabilized, who was very unstable, which is my daughter; relationships between my family — I was disconnected from my family for so many years, it took me a long time to kind of build it back up again.

Oh, how I was made to disconnect is: I was taken by a lady named Pam Bevin to a room and put under auditing processes with another gentleman, and it was like — what you would be called — kidnapped. And after thorough processing and getting out of the room that I was in — and this was two weeks, no one else was there but these two people — I disconnected from my entire family. I was told that this was the next process. I removed my money from the bank accounts and gave them all the money that I had.

Oh, I signed waivers like most everyone else did, waivers that I would not attack, threaten, or sue Scientology.

Because I felt that my parents were enemies, I was put through an auditing process to — my parents were not the kind of people that I wanted around me. And I'd like to also state, with that fact, my mother is a counselor and a psychologist and my father is a retired Methodist minister. And my father had, when he was in the ministry, very briefly, a client come to him that was involved with Mayor Cazares' set up, that told him —

MR. LeCHER: That may be considered hearsay.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: All right.

We can't use that for legal reasons.

MR. LeCHER: That's a separate issue, and we're not here today to discuss that.

MR. FLYNN: It's not only a question of hearsay, but it could be a question of confidentiality of the priest/penitent privilege that is present in the State of Florida.

MR. LeCHER: We will not hear that.

Can you tell me something about living — you were in Clearwater at one time, living here?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, I was.

MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me about sanitary conditions and the — they had children and adults, and tell me about how — what it was like to — especially, young children, like infants, in the City of Clearwater in the hotel, and conditions of the RPF and the EPF?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: At the time I was in Clearwater, there was a hepatitis epidemic that was being covered up, contagious.

MR. LeCHER: When was that, please?


Through 1976 and '77, people that were coming from California and the Las Vegas area to Clearwater were coming back very ill. And at that time I had no idea of why, until I got to Clearwater myself.

I was in Clearwater for eight weeks. The first day that I got to Clearwater, I became ill because of the food conditions that they had in the hotel. I reported to what they call the Medical Officer, and noticed that downstairs people were getting inoculations for different things. At that time, that second day — I didn't know until, actually, about three weeks later that there was actually a hepatitis cover-up going on.

MR. LeCHER: All right, what about the children?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The children were kept — my room happened to be next to the nursery. And the nursery was — there were two young kids that were, like, thirteen and fourteen that were watching the children.

Because I could hear crying — the children were separated from the parents and I could — crying all night long. And being a mother, I made it a habit to look into those things.

There was — the kids were sick: there was flu, there was no — there wasn't any kind of clean area. The conditions were that all babies that were crying were left in one room to cry because they had reactive minds, and they were considered suppressive babies. And all kids that smiled and that were nice were left in another room. And — which was really kind of a horrible experience for me as a mother.

The other incident was — another reason why they moved most of the children of the base at that time is there was a child — because of where the parking lot was situated at the back of the Fort Harrison, the children were right next to the parking lot. And a child got out of that area and was killed behind that parking lot area. And that's when they made the decision that they had to move the children: one, because of the publicity that — and the children are still in the city somewhere.

At the time I was there they were making the big move of getting the children out of the Fort Harrison. And the parents that had babies were very upset with the fact, because they only had an hour for lunch and would not be able to see their children because where they were putting the children was an hour and-a-half- to two-hour drive and they couldn't have that hour — see, parents were allowed one hour for their children at lunchtime, and that was it. And that hour meant that, by the time they got there and had to be back on post again, they couldn't see their children.

So, the big upset was that the parents wanted to do something about it, but they actually couldn't. There wasn't — it wasn't — the parents got off — when a lot of the Sea Org. members got off the ship, they started having babies because they were not allowed to have babies when they were on the ship. And as a consequence, you had this overpopulation of small children. There were at least fifteen small babies that were ranged between three or four weeks old and, I think, the oldest was, like, two years old. And there were all young children in one confined area.

MR. LeCHER: Why were the parents separated from their children? How can a — I'm not sure I can understand a suppressive infant. How do you know —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Parents —

MR. LeCHER: — an infant is suppressive, simply because he cries?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah. Or they're going through what's called a PTS; it's called Potential Trouble Source Restimulation. And the way they audit the process is that there — the child must have somebody suppressive — if it's not the parents, someone in the immediate area that is suppressive to the child. So, he is being restimulated. And so, those children were put into separate rooms and just left to cry. And the basis of it is — is that the children — the babies had to handle their own type of thing.

And the reason the parents were split is because it's nothing but work, work, work at the Fort Harrison, and the time that they saw their children was dinner break and that's it. And then, if they had liberty on Saturday. You're talking about working fifteen, twenty hours a day, and that's it. And there is no human relationship between the parents, basically. And then, they got separated and — the idea is to separate you from your family. And if you have children and you have that instinct — the children are little LRHs as someone previously said.

MR. LeCHER: As these children got to be five or six years old, did they attend school, at least the public school system as we know it?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Some do, some don't.

MR. LeCHER: Did they ever, the authorities from the Board of Education, ever question or come by and check on the educational opportunities or mandatory requirements for the children?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Not while I was there. And I did speak to kids that were the Commodore Messengers that had not attended school.

And one of the things why they were removing the children from the area is so the city, particularly, couldn't keep a handle on how many children were being born in Scientology, so, when they became school age, no one would be able to find out whether they should be attending school or not.

MR. LeCHER: How was that small child killed that you said was killed in the back —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It was accidentally run over by a car.

MR. LeCHER: What about the RPF and the EPF? What was —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I mean, the two were at the Fort Harrison while I was there, and I saw every single part of the building.

The RPF was at — in the stairwells, the floors, at the very end, not on the upper floors because all the public was on the upper floors, but on the bottom floors at the very far end. It's like a closet cubicle that ten to fifteen people were stacked up on each other.

It smelled; it's like a sweatbox; it looked like a small concentration camp.

There was, basically — I tried to talk to someone that was in the RPF — we were old friends — and he couldn't talk to me. They're not allowed to talk, constant running, chipping paint — at that time they were chipping paint off of cement. And when they finished that, someone would come down and drop some more paint on the cement and they would chip paint off of the cement. And that was the big project at that particular time. It was how much paint they could chip off the sidewalks. And this was their major project.

And as far as — it didn't matter whether they were female or men, it was — the same thing was going on. But the conditions were really gross. No cleanliness, smelled bad. At that time they were wearing all green — and I remember that really stuck out in my mind — and dark blue to signify that we were not allowed as public people to talk to these people. It was just one of the conditions.

We were screened when we came in, and we were told that anybody in the RPF was going through heavy conditions' orders and were not allowed communication. I had been through a similar thing called EPF in Las Vegas. So, I'm very familiar with this whole process.

MR. LeCHER: You were here from almost the beginning — from the beginning of the existence of the Church of Scientology in Clearwater.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. I was in Las Vegas at the time that Clearwater was set up. I was not here at — when Clearwater was — began.

MR. LeCHER: You say, "set up." That was —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I was in Las Vegas when — when the Fort Harrison was put here, we got orders in Las Vegas that Fort Harrison was here.

MR. LeCHER: I'll ask you the same question I asked at least one other. Maybe you can answer it.

Why Clearwater and why did they come under the United Churches of Florida and not what they really are?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: One of the reasons is you have to look at the area. It's basically an elderly area, very quiet. They figure that the people over a certain age bracket would not stand up and oppose what they were doing. Plus, the area is kind of, you know, a quiet, little city, and they figured that no one in the city would make any kind of outcry. And that, if they did, you know, they could deal with someone over fifty because they think, you know, a few years down the line they were not going to be here and they wouldn't really have to deal with it.

MR. LeCHER: They didn't realize that all these people were conservative in nature?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: They didn't realize the conservativeness that was really in the area.

MR. LeCHER: They thought they'd be quiet?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah. They didn't actually see that they would have any problems in this area.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

I have a lot more questions, but I would like to ask my colleagues so they have a chance, too. Who did I leave — who do I start with, this morning? Is it Mrs. Garvey?

MR. HATCHETT: I was the last one.

MR. LeCHER: You were the last one, all right, that I started with? Then, I'll start with you, Mr. Calderbank.

MR. CALDERBANK: LaVenda, thank you for coming. You're very courageous to come here.

On the bugging, you said that your phone was bugged?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, it was.

MR. CALDERBANK: Fair Game Policy?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It’s called Fair Game. It's the same —

MR. CALDERBANK: When was that?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, since '79, '80, and '81.

MR. CALDERBANK: '79, '80, and '81? How do you know that they were bugged?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: My husband was a cop.

MR. CALDERBANK: And he swept the lines?


MR. CALDERBANK: Was it ever reported?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, it was reported several times. In fact, at one point in time in Boston we had take the bugs out of the telephone.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they — did the Church ever tell you that any of this was going on when you came in or while you were a member?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, that they were bugging?

MR. CALDERBANK: Or that the GO was — or where anybody was involved in this in the Church?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I am very aware of it because I worked in the Hubbard Communication Office, and I came in to publically tell — but I was aware through my office of operations happening.

There is a witness here that was in the Guardian's Office when they did what's called Operation Shake and Bake against me after I got out. She will be testifying of actual Fair Game that they actually did. She was still into Scientology at the time that they decided to do Fair Game. This is very recent; this is not — this is in the last two years.


And during your stay in Scientology, and when you first went in, you believed what you had read about Mr. Hubbard?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: As being very sincere.

MR. CALDERBANK: You believed he was a scientist, a nuclear physicist —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, absolutely. We had a full folder of background that he had a degree from, you know, different places and that the guy was — well, I looked at him as an educated, qualified person. I realize that what we'd gotten is falsified information.

MR. CALDERBANK: What was that?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, basically, when we — this is quite a few years ago. They've gotten rid of most of this information because — since the cases have started to be researched about L. Ron Hubbard's degrees. And we found out it was — oh, in the early years in the briefing courses.

In the early years, we were told that Ron had a degree as a physicist, that he was a scientist. We found — I found out later, through doing a lot of research on different universities, that the information that we were told — that this is not true, that — we finally came up with an affidavit, which he had part in — I believe it's called, and I may have to correct this — Sequoia University, that he had a degree that he gave himself, which he was notoriously known for giving himself his own certifications.

But we were briefed out of the fact — during those days we were getting — in every single part of the old books, the old Scientology books, you will find backgrounds on LRH of all these wonderful things that he did. If you notice the new books that are coming out, it's no longer being printed because we became aware, by doing our research, that he did not have these degrees that he professed to have. And those are being eliminated out of the front covers of the books now. They are changing that whole process, and we can put that into evidence if you want to see it; we have the old books here that show that he was supposed to have all these Master degrees —

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank, I'd like — does that book have —

MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah. This book was bought 5/6/82, and for the record, it's Exhibit 28, All About Radiation, where it still has his background, bibliography, claiming his degrees and his education as the major selling point of the book.

MR. FLYNN: The witness is getting into some legal conclusions which would probably be better not to get into.

But in any event, when we tie all the evidence together at the end with regard to comparison between the old biographies and the new biographies, the representations that are still made and the representations as they have been changed, I believe the evidence will show that the inference of deception can be drawn from the fact that some of the changes — and some changes that have not been made, such as holding himself out as a nuclear physicist on the cover of the new books — will indicate to this Commission that the Church of Scientology has entered into a process whereby they have attempted to alter the language to some degree to cover the basic facts. But the inferences that people like LaVenda Van Schaick and anyone coming to Scientology — anyone coming to Clearwater can see is that he still has all those degrees, although some of the language has been changed.

And when we begin, at the end of these hearings, to draw legal conclusions from the evidence, we will point those documents out to the Commission.

MR. CALDERBANK: Well, then, I guess to sum up Mr. Hubbard's background: Isn't his background a major point or a major encouragement, representation, for you to spend money on courses?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did it, in your mind, give credence to the theories and the things that you were going to pay money for?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: Would you have spent that money if you had known that the book was written in three months without research, this —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, I would not.


You talked about the auditing process and how it was used.

Were you told it was under confidence?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely. I found out that it was blackmail.

MR. CALDERBANK: Strictest confidence is how it was sold to you? And what was sold to you —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely. And it's absolutely blackmail.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you said about disconnect, breaking up your family: Were any of these confidential facts used in that process?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, they were.

MR. CALDERBANK: Were there any scientific guarantees given to you about auditing as to what it could cure? Did you — was it sold to you as helping any of your problems?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. And also medical at that time.

MR. CALDERBANK: Can you give me a specific medical problem?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Headaches.

MR. CALDERBANK: Headaches.

Did it cure your headaches?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. It gave me more headaches.

MR. CALDERBANK: When you — when you were in auditing, did the auditor ever tell you that it could not cure — specifically tell you that it could not cure any medical illnesses?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: In 1979, when my auditor found out that I was leaving Scientology, she made me aware that it did not cure any kind of medical representations.

MR. CALDERBANK: But while you were spending money, before in the previous years —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It was after I ran out of money.

MR. CALDERBANK: After you ran out of money.

The waivers: Did you understand them when you signed them?


MR. CALDERBANK: Did they make them out to you to be very legal documents?


MR. CALDERBANK: That would be upheld in a court of law if you left —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, not in that sense. Legal documents as to — basically, for me to go into the Sea Organization, I had to sign a waiver. It was a conditional right to join staff in Las Vegas at that time.

Oh, yeah, this is really cute. I signed a billion-year contract and another contract, and they're suing me for contract deception.

MR. CALDERBANK: They're now trying to sue —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah. I'd like — I wonder what their approach would be if I offered to go back on staff.

MR. CALDERBANK: So, you are now being threatened —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I'm being —

MR. CALDERBANK: — on these waivers —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: — sued for breach of contract that I signed.

MR. CALDERBANK: Now, you said that living conditions in the Fort Harrison, while you were there in '77, had a hepatitis epidemic?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: How did you know it was hepatitis?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, one was in the inoculations that they were giving —

MR. CALDERBANK: Who gave the inoculations?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The Medical Officer did it downstairs.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you see any degrees on the wall?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. There —

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you see any certificates?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. Absolutely, she has none whatsoever. She was not a nurse.

MR. CALDERBANK: What was her name?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I want to say Mary Jane, but it was Mary Ann something.

MR. CALDERBANK: Mary Ann something, okay.

And you also said there was an attempt to cover up this epidemic from health officials in the city? How do —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: How do you know that?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It's a combination of things.

Our SED came back from Las Vegas with hepatitis, and was put in an area where — well, she — one, she didn't stay SED. She was put — kind of confined over to another area. At that time she had lost an extreme lot of weight. And I wasn't really aware of what the problem was until I got to Clearwater. And I have seen hepatitis before.


You have firsthand —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. I know what hepatitis looks like. I've seen people go through that condition of extreme contagious hepatitis.

And there was fifteen people downstairs in the Medical Room at that time, and they were separating those people where they put me in — they wanted to make sure that I — I was a public person then — I didn't get any kind of contact with them at all. So, they were putting me in a separate room, and these people were, like, quarantined. And they were stacked up against the walls. They were just — it was incoherent, not there, very ill.

MR. CALDERBANK: And how was the —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Because I had ended up in an Ethic situation, talking with Laura Anderson at that time, the Medical Officer at that time — I had gotten a — don't know if it was food or the water; the water was very poor. I had gotten an infection in my mouth at that time. And the water that, apparently, was coming to my room was not really clean.

And the Medical Officer gave me alcohol and she told me to rinse my mouth out with alcohol and then swallow it. And I can imagine what the effects would have — luckily, I happened to take a whiff of the stuff before that occurred. And that's when I got into the discussion of what was happening with Ron with the particular people. Of course, it's not discussed

And then, I heard rumor with other staff talking about it. They couldn't talk about it.

I found out later from someone that's involved in my litigation, legally, that that's exactly what was occurring. It was my own guess.

MR. CALDERBANK: The Medical Officer, then, prescribed a treatment that you knew was harmful to you, swallowing alcohol, denatured alcohol?

The children in Scientology —

MR. MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. I'll answer that, yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: The children were supervised by a minor, a thirteen year-old, twelve —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Thirteen or fourteen year-old.

MR. CALDERBANK: And they had many children that they were taking care of?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: There was fifteen at that time.

MR. CALDERBANK: Fifteen was —


MR. CALDERBANK: Was this —


MR. CALDERBANK: — their job?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: This was their job.

MR. CALDERBANK: And they had — how long were they there supervising, approximately, these minors or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, the kids were not allowed in any public areas: one, because they were dirty —


MS. VAN SCHAICK: — and it was bad public relations as far as people that were coming in and taking courses. And this was one of the real upsets because you got a mother that would come in and say, "Oh, well, where's the nursery at?" And, you know, she proceeded back into the nursery to see how the Sea Org. children were doing, and it was a constant problem. Because being a mother, they — you know, living a normal life, just coming in as a public person and seeing the conditions of the children always was a continual upset on Flag, Clearwater.

MR. CALDERBANK: Would you characterize the living quarters as sanitary or unsanitary?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Very unsanitary. There was — there were diapers on the floor; the kids had — the babies had rashes from not being cleaned and changed on a regular basis; runny noses; most of them had flu. They were really sick.

MR. CALDERBANK: And would you say these children were supervised by someone well trained in the area or by the minors?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, I have to answer that — honestly. I think that there was one fourteen year-old that was very capable of handling the children. She had too many to handle, unfortunately.

MR. CALDERBANK: You never saw a child go to school, though, a public school?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, never.

MR. CALDERBANK: Why is that?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Because school is society.

MR. CALDERBANK: Is that what — how would you refer to that as the Church's — did the Church say that directly, that the school is not good for their children?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: When my daughter was younger in Las Vegas, the only reason that she was sent to public school was because the public school system in Las Vegas was required for the children in the Las Vegas area. And the Guardian's Office, because they didn't want a stink at that time, said that we had to put our children in school, or my daughter would have never attended school.

MR. CALDERBANK: So, you — would it be a policy of the Church to prevent children from going to public schools?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Other than Apple Schools or schools that have to do with Scientology.


You mentioned Quentin Hubbard's death. You said there was some questionable surroundings about that.

Do any of those surroundings pertain to Clearwater at all?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: He left Clearwater. He died in Las Vegas.

MR. CALDERBANK: And your brother-in-law, you mentioned that he got — the R2-45 process, and that your brother-in-law was found shot to death?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: He was found dead in his room with a .45, with a gunshot — with a gunshot wound to his head.

MR. LeCHER: Would you like to —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The result of David's death has never really been — David was doing some different things for the operation of the Guardian's Office in Las Vegas. And at the time that the police found him, he was found with a .45 and a suicide note. He had written a letter to my parents; he was married to my sister. And the last letter he had written was how wonderful Scientology was, and he was doing a little mission and — anyway, the result of David's death put my sister under psychiatric care and things have been basically the same since then.

I don't think it will be probably the first or the last incident that will be uncovered through the next few years, and if people really kind of wise up and look at what's going on — I think the only questions that could really be answered on Quentin or David's death would be Artie Maren, and it would be really nice if Artie appeared at these hearings.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Mr. Berfield, do you have any questions — if you are finished, Mr. Calderbank?


MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: Yes, ma'am. I have a couple questions of here: You said that you had a suit that was pending against Scientology; is that correct?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That's correct.

MR. BERFIELD: Did you sue them first or did they sue you first?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Who attacked who first? They attacked me first.

MR. BERFIELD: By "attacking," do —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Who sued first? I sued first.

MR. BERFIELD: We — one of our local newspapers, in this morning's newspaper, have kind of led to believe that maybe we have not been drilling you people thoroughly enough to establish the authenticity of your statements.

I thought we had, personally. I think that our interest is so deep in Clearwater, but I must ask this question, even under extreme emotional conditions: Did you come because you wanted to be vindictive towards the Scientologists or — or what is your purpose in being here?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, absolutely not.

I care about the people that are down at the Fort Harrison. I would really like to see them straighten up their act. I would like to see kids get an education, which I feel that they deserve. I would like to see the dirty tricks stopped. And I genuinely would like for the people that are in the Fort Harrison to realize that people that are involved in my case or their own personal cases genuinely care about what's happening with those people. And basically, just trying to let them know there are other things that are going on.

A lot of times — they don't want to find out about it unless a hearing like this actually happens. And because you have so many different Scientologists in so many different areas that one may not be aware of what's happening in Los Angeles or in other areas.

My intention was never to be vindictive against Clearwater. My intention was just to actually expose the truth, and if they can handle the truth, fine.

MR. BERFIELD: Now, you earlier made some statements about misrepresentations; Mr. Calderbank went over them pretty well.

But when you use the word "misrepresentation," what does that mean to you?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: They're representing themselves as a religious organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Exclude the religion.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: As far as auditing processes?

MR. BERFIELD: Yes, ma am.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Auditing processes are supposed to be confidential; they are not. You walk — you go in with the attitude that you are — that your personal life will be private. That is not true. Your personal life, once you leave, is totally exposed to the press, exposed to other family members. It's an exposure to your husband, an exposure to anyone that wants to see it.

MR. BERFIELD: I realize I'm asking the opinion of a layperson, but, in your opinion, the living conditions at the Fort Harrison — is there a health problem there?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: There was a health problem when I was there. Whether there are — is now — I have not been to the Fort Harrison in over three years now.

MR. BERFIELD: I also understand — strike that.

These technologies: the Fair Game, the Blown Student, what have you — the last time you had contact with Scientology, were those still in effect?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely. They never changed from day one.

MR. BERFIELD: One of the biggest questions I've been asked by people — and it would appear to be well above average — what would cause a person to go into Scientology?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I think all people that come in have an inner nature of genuine caring about other people. I think people that get in the organization usually are people that should go into the service or Vista or Red Cross or — they're people that I consider that have what's called a help instinct.


Now —

MR. FLYNN: Mr. Berfield, I understood that question to be calling for her opinion as to what she thinks the inner reasons are and not to be a question of the type: what representations were made to her at the outset that induced her to go in, but her inner feelings that she experienced as one of the motivating factors.

MR. BERFIELD: That was a general question, and the next one is going to be more specific as to what motivated you to go into it?

MR. FLYNN: What representations did she —

MR. BERFIELD: What representations —


— rely on or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Representations of how — well, L. Ron Hubbard's background and what the group stood for.

MR. BERFIELD: Now, you stayed in, roughly, nine years; is that correct?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That's correct.

MR. BERFIELD: Somewhere along the line, did you come to the conclusion that these representations were not correct or true or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That's when I got out.

MR. BERFIELD: Did this happen at the very end or did you have doubts along the line or what?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I don't understand the question.


MS. VAN SCHAICK: You mean, did I doubt on and off —


MS. VAN SCHAICK: — down the line when I was in? Yes.

I didn't have the mental stability at that time to get out. I couldn't get out.

MR. BERFIELD: What do you mean you couldn't get out?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I was so indoctrinated with the whole group that I mentally couldn't bring myself to getting out. I couldn't get out.

MR BERFIELD: Could I interpret that that you're saying that they had control over your mind —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. BERFIELD: The courses that you last — you audited courses here in Clearwater; is that correct?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, I did.

MR. BERFIELD: Those courses that you last audited here or took here in Clearwater, how would you define those in layman's terms? Were they true courses or were they misrepresented or what?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It's interesting. The courses I took here were what is called the Hubbard Communication Ethics Officer. And basically, what that is is to establish ethics in the community and to have, the organization run on a very ethical process.

And I realized that, after I finished the whole course, that's not what was being represented in Clearwater. I took a course that was totally false.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know the meaning of the word, "Dianetics"?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. Dianetics is through the mind. That's exactly what it is: it's through the mind. Through the mind you get —

MR. BERFIELD: This is a little off the subject, but it goes along the line. I noticed in the same morning's paper that I was reading, that the City of Austin, Texas was requesting that they declare a day of Dianetics.

Do you think Clearwater ought to declare a day of Dianetics? I mean —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Almost every other city has.


MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, it's public relations. It's a great way to get the public interested in to what they consider very good public relations, and get city and government officials thinking that they are very — you know, "We're just the nice guys." It's — it's what's called a big scam, by promoting to agencies, special politics, and press that they are the nice guys, when they are not the nice guys.

MR. BERFIELD: I have just two other questions here I'd like to ask you.

You have heard some of the testimony that has been given here; is that correct?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. BERFIELD: In your mind as a layman, do you feel that we have been fair in attempting to detect the truth about Scientology?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. I'd like to hear the other side. I hope the other side comes and appears, I really do. It — it's — I don't want this to be a one-sided session. I hope that they do show up and they do appear.

But I want them — it's too bad that they couldn't let the staff or the Fort Harrison sit in on these proceedings. Of course, the staff is told not to read newspapers or communicate with anyone that's left Scientology. And I would really have liked the whole staff to have attended this, because I consider it a Committee of Evidence and I'm sure the staff would understand that.

MR. BERFIELD: One last question, and I ask this of everyone — you answered the Mayor's question as to why Scientology moved here.

But if you could tell the people of Clearwater just one thing or a short statement as to what they should be looking at, what would you say to them?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Just be careful of the nice guy that's smiling on the outside, extending his hand with good public relations, because you'll find out in the long run, when your own personal life is exposed some way to that individual — and they have ways of finding out those things — you will find out that it will be used against you.

MR. BERFIELD: When you use the word "nice guy," could you be just a little more specific?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I — I'm talking about people that are currently in the Guardian's Office at the Fort Harrison. They're creating an image of — that they are going to be nice guys now. It's interesting that a religion has been not a nice guy for a long time.

MR. BERFIELD: Well, let's stay away from —
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Part 3 of 15

MS. VAN SCHAICK: All right. Well, whatever, an organization has not been a — they have not — they have not represented what they really are.

I am glad that the hearing is here because there are people that are out of Scientology that are trying to represent to the press and to people exactly what they are. And it's, like, the only reason the witnesses are here at this time — we were in for a long time, we know how things are covered up, we know exactly what is going on. And no matter how nice that they say they are being as an organization, I believe that for about two days, and that's my extent of it. And it's just a nice front that changes and it will go back to exactly what it has always been, no matter what kind of public relations that they put out to press or put out to anyone else.

I have not seen that dramatic of a change in the organization, and I don't personally believe them. And anyone else that does, that's entirely up to them.

MR. BERFIELD: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Just as an aside before Mrs. Garvey, we're hoping that Scientologists would participate in these — Scientologists are taping this entire four days. And I hope that they will show it to their people within the organization at an opportune time and they bring them all up here from the Fort Harrison.

VAN SCHAICK: I doubt that staff will ever see this film —

MR. LeCHER: Well, they —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: — other than the Guardian's Office. And that's really unfortunate. Other than when they're splicing something, I doubt that staff will see this film.

MR. LeCHER: They are here and taping it verbatim.

Mrs. Garvey.

MRS. GARVEY: Miss Van Schaick, you said you were here in Clearwater in '76?


MRS. GARVEY: What period, what month were you —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It was in the summer. It was — let's see, it was May or June, just before it started to get real hot.

MRS. GARVEY: Okay, because there are a lot of hot months.

You left the organization in '79; is that right?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That's right.

MRS. GARVEY: You made an interesting comment about that, when you came to Clearwater, you made a tour of the Fort Harrison.

Why would you make a tour of the Fort Harrison? Is that your standard policy when you go some place to make a tour —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I was ethics-trained in the organization, and standard policy from someone that's ethics-trained is, basically, just to see what's going on in the area. It's the way I was programmed for so many years.

MRS. GARVEY: Well, I think it's interesting that you're the first one that ever really knew what was going on. They never went beyond their room and their training it seems.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I — yeah, I had kind of a freedom in the Fort Harrison, see, I had been in for years. And being that I was taking an ethics course —

MRS. GARVEY: They didn't doubt that you would ever question —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah, that I would never question what was going on. Basically, they didn't think — and definitely that I would report it. I mean, the course that I was taking was ethics. So, someone's that taking those kind of courses surely wouldn't go around to the press or anybody and expound on what's going on.

MRS. GARVEY: You also made comment that you were part of the Sea Organization. And yet, you came here as a public person?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah. I was in Sea Org. and changed my contract because I was working for the Mission of the Meadows. And when you work for a mission, you sign a regular contract instead of the Sea Org. contract.

MRS. GARVEY: Your billion-year contract —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Right. See, they cancelled our billion-year contracts in — this is going to sound outrageous — Las Vegas because we didn't have a ship we could stick in the middle of the desert and do what — we didn't have a ship. But we had to go to what was called Project 0 at that time, and we had this little rowboat in this lake out in Lake Mead.

Anyway, they had to cancel our Sea Org. contracts in Las Vegas, basically, because we couldn't go through this ship training because there was no ship. You can't put a ship in the desert.

MRS. GARVEY: Well, how do they go through this sea training in Clearwater?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, they have the ship there. The objective was — is the Apollo and the Excalibur were here in port at different times, and they were going to take each staff member from the Fort Harrison and go through what's called this Project 0. Then, in Los Angeles, they also had the ships off port there. So, you could go through regular sea training duty. But we weren't capable of putting a ship in the desert, so we had our Sea Org. contracts cancelled.

MRS. GARVEY: What is — so, if you were a public person, the living-conditions that you lived in were fine?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I had my own room to myself.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you go into any of the staff rooms or their living quarters?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: The only staff that I was in was Executive Staff.

MRS. GARVEY: Which would have been —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Would have been the same kind of quarters as mine. Either they had their own room — other than I walked into where the RPF was downstairs. That was —

MRS. GARVEY: That was a small, closet-type area with fifteen bunks, which you said earlier?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah, people just stacked up sleeping.

MRS. GARVEY: What about — was there anything in the garage at that time? We were told earlier that that's where dorms were. Did you get to the garage?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That was — that was their dorm.

MRS. GARVEY: Oh, that long room. It only had fifteen. We were earlier told that it had fifty-four.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, in the dorms down — see, each — the way they have the rooms set up, the — there was different kinds of staff there. There was staff there just for public that had money. Then, there was staff for the staff. And there was seven different orgs. at that time — seven different organizations operating at that particular time.

There was a Guardian's Office and then there was public — it's a very complicated — I don't want to get into all the organization details. But — yeah, it would take too long anyway.

The staff there basically had — some of them had their own rooms, some were sharing rooms. The ones that were single — I couldn't have told you how many staff at that particular time. There was, probably, I think, about three hundred and fifty staff operating.

MRS. GARVEY: Executive staff or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: All staff. I'm talking about all staff. And then, it varied between three hundred fifty and four hundred at that time.

MRS. GARVEY: What was — what were you told about the Guardian Office when you first joined?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That it was a protective organization part of Scientology.

MRS. GARVEY: In the outline we were given, there's a comment about illegal aliens that are working in the Fort Harrison.

Would you elaborate a little bit more on —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I can't get into it because of legal reasons —


MS. VAN SCHAICK: — right now.

MRS. GARVEY: Were — through the years that you were there, what were you promised, or what guarantees were you given when you continued auditing?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, basically, that I would have no more problems. That — that's just a very simple basic.

MRS. GARVEY: Did you have any encounter with a blown student?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes, I did.

MRS. GARVEY: Someone that was physically brought back?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. I have physically brought back people myself.

MRS. GARVEY: You have?


MRS. GARVEY: You made comment —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I can't get into that.

MRS. GARVEY: I'm not — I just — okay.

You made comment that —


MRS. GARVEY: — you were in the —


I can testify to that.

MRS. GARVEY: You can?



MS. VAN SCHAICK: I'm trying to stay away from my case.

There were several incidents where I had to go out and get blown staff members because I handled that particular area, and whatever it took at that time, you know, if we had to bodily set the guy in the car to bring him back. And I brought back, oh, I guess, through the years, probably — I don't know, maybe, different times where we had to stick somebody in a car to bring them back to base.

MRS. GARVEY: What happened — do you — are you aware of what happened to that blown student, once he came back to base?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: As far as basic, on RPF.

Are you talking about a student or a staff member?

MRS. GARVEY: Whoever that was —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, people that were public persons that maybe would leave the course or would not be there for a while were not RPFed.


It was just staff; that was all?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: People with money were not RPFed. And that's the —

MRS. GARVEY: Subjected to it.

What's the — you mentioned you were in EPF.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It's the same as RPF. It's Estate Project Force.

We — we laid carpet and painted walls.

MRS. GARVEY: Why were you in the EPF? I'm just trying to establish whether this is a standard policy of the —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Briefly, because I had an upset with an executive in the organization, and — well, I've been in EPF several different instances.

The one that I can probably expound on the most was: I disagreed with the fact that Barbara Glass wanted to leave my five year old locked up in the building by herself and leave her there. And I did it — that was the first time — that was one of the last times I actually got EPF, because I got in a fight with an executive officer because I refused to let them lock my child up for any reason.

MRS. GARVEY: I can see why you blew.

Your husband isn't a Scientologist or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, he's not.

MRS. GARVEY: He' s not.

I can't think of anything else I was going to ask.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. —

MRS. GARVEY: Oh, freeloader's debt.

Were you charged a freeloader's debt when you left?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: It was something enormous. I think it was twenty-two thousand dollars I was charged after I worked fifteen hours a day, seven days a week.

MRS. GARVEY: You were here in '77.

Did that not give you a feeling that there was something wrong?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. That actually reminds me of my experience in being at Clearwater. I knew definitely something was wrong.

MRS. GARVEY: But you still weren't able to leave?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Not until almost a year later. I didn't pull things really together until almost a year after that.

MRS. GARVEY: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett.

MR. HATCHETT: I only have two questions.

You spoke in terms of that child that was accidentally killed in the parking lot.


MR. HATCHETT: Did you actually witness that yourself?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, I did not.

MR. HATCHETT: How close did you know that the evidence may have been true? Did someone tell you or —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Someone told me. And there was a lot of uproar at that —


MS. VAN SCHAICK: Just before I got there, there was a lot of uproar going on. And that's when the whole change came about that all the children had to be removed from the Fort Harrison.

MR. HATCHETT: And where did they place them?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Good question.

MR. LeCHER: What was the question, Mr. Hatchett?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Where did they place the children.

MR. HATCHETT: Where did they place the children —


MR. HATCHETT: — after they moved them from the Fort Harrison?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I have no idea.

MR. HATCHETT: But you knew where yours was?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Mine was with me, thank God.

MR. HATCHETT: I mean, during this time.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Mine was not, thank God, in Clearwater at that time.

MR. LeCHER: Will you ask her if the death of the child was ever reported to the police?

MR. HATCHETT: Good question.

Was the death of the child ever reported?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I — as far as I know, no.

MR. HATCHETT: To establish whether or not the Guardian's Office was finally repulsed: When they used Shake and Bake against you — is that the correct term?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yes. It's called Shake and Bake.

MR. HATCHETT: All right.

Did — were you aware if this was a written policy?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, I wasn't aware of, really, Shake and Bake until somebody actually left the Guardian's Office that told me. I know what they had done to me. Shake and Bake was the name of what they were doing to me.

MR. HATCHETT: Can you describe what Shake and Bake is?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, I received two — two different incidents. One was a setup where I — I was told by Pam Bevin that she had cancer, so I was to go and get prescriptions of pills at a motel for her cancer, not realizing at the time that they were taking photographs of me outside the motel and that there was some people upstairs in a room that looked like me that stayed in the motel to throw a big scene, like, there was an orgy happening upstairs in the motel.

Now, that was not an incident that they completed because I became aware — or it was, like, a few — I became aware that in the motel that something was going on, there was a setup. So, we got people out there to the motel. Of course, there was some Scientologists checked into the motel that disappeared right out. They just totally disappeared out of the motel.

The other one was was that — an incident when they sent a gentleman by the name of Barry Clingler to me to say things that might upset — that my husband was having affairs, that my attorney was working with the CIA, that I should get rid of my attorney. And I stole that document that he had written out from the Guardian's Office, which is public evidence in my case.

Oh, by the way, Pam Bevin was my auditor and was also responsible — she was also the person that was in charge of setting me up. It — it's ironic that they stick your auditor, the person that you give all your personal information to, as your key person to attack you after you get out. They have all of your personal information about you.

I don't think that I'll be the last case that they use that with.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Do you have any questions, Mr. Shoemaker?

MR. SHOEMAKER: I just have one: It's my understanding that you were physically detained?

MS. VAN SCHICK: Yes, I was.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you explain that a little bit, please, what happened?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I was brought to a room —

MR. SHOEMAKER: Can you give the date, please?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: What's the date? It was in 1974, February.

And the house I've since located. It's out in the middle of the desert in Las Vegas. It was Pam Bevin and another guy; I still don't know the guy's name at that time.

Basically, I was stuck under heavy auditing processes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Was there something leading up to this as to why —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Money. I had money in an account, and they, basically, wanted the money I had in the account.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you — you were actually locked up and were not allowed to leave during this —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I was not allowed to leave.

Whether the front door was constantly locked twenty-four hours a day, I could not answer you that question because I stayed in one room, the bedroom. So, I don't — you know, I — if — if it was or not, I was not coherent enough because I felt like I was really drugged out quite a period of time. I was not home at all.

MR. SHOEMAKER: A while ago you made a comment about PR, or that that — I think you said, "It was just PR, public relations," relating to a question.

Did you — are there procedures that are established relating to public relations in terms of how these things are dealt with with people outside of the organization?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Any time there's bad press or an ex-Scientologist reporting the truth, they do a whole campaign to show what a nice guy they are: open house, they clean up their act, basically. And until press — and when press dies down and other people like myself, that are ex-Scientologists go back to their normal lives, they say — it's kind of like a joke to them.

It's — we've done this — I did this several times in Las Vegas with city officials there in Las Vegas. Any time we had kind of an upset, we'd go through a cleaning house and we'd remove our children to different places. And it happens in every Scientology organization across the United States.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And you personally had firsthand knowledge of this occurring? I mean, you actually participated —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I've done — we've done a cleanup in Las Vegas.

And at the time that I was on Flag, they were doing a cleanup with the children, moving the children out of the area.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Going back to that child that was run over, I have no reason to believe that it certainly was — I'm sure it was an accident, but you don't know that it was reported or you say you don't think it was reported to the police?

MS. VAN SHAICK: I don't know whether it was reported or not. The child was only, like, two years old.

MR. LeCHER: Do you know the name of the child?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah, but I'm afraid because of my lawsuit.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I don't —

MR. FLYNN: On this particular issue, for the information of the Commission, we have been investigating it for some time. I've had some conversations with one or two city officials about it, and I can say that it — my office is currently investigating it. There is a person who has some knowledge about the subject. And at the time, however, our investigatory efforts are inconclusive.

MR. LeCHER: You contributed a lot of money and the organization received a lot of money.

Do you know what the money went for? Apparently, you weren't — they were not — I will not speculate. What did the money go for?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: What did it go to?

MR. LeCHER: They took in millions of dollars a week, certainly, millions a year in Clearwater. Where did all that money go?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: So L. Ron Hubbard could live very comfortably and the executive staff could live very comfortably. That's my assumption.

I haven't seen money go back to staff. And I'm sure that staff, currently, at the Fort Harrison, if they'd ever sit down and look at their CGI, or their gross income, and ask themselves the question as to where really all this money is going, they would probably if they really studied their income policies really closely, they would find out that it's not definitely going back to the staff, and it's not going back into what they think that it's going back into.

I would say it's going into people's pockets.

MR. LeCHER: Well, these allegations and — or question — why did it take you so long to start raising these questions in your own mind? Why did it take you so long?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: After nine years? I was indoctrinated with one thing, and you tend to believe that one thing.

The only thing I can say is I've been out for over three years now, and it's only three — it's only until the last year I can see my life is normal for me. It's a mental — you become a mental cripple, and you're terrified with the fact that, if you leave, your life will be exposed, I mean, kind of a public board.

There are things that people all personally hide, you know, whether it's their first kiss with a boyfriend or — they — you all keep very personal and private things in your life. And those things are all given to your auditor.

And there's nothing that they could personally do to me. My life is public record. And it's like, how many people sitting in this courtroom would like their life public record?

MR. LeCHER: Did you continue to receive auditing after you learned the information would be made public?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Oh, no. I have not received any auditing —

MR. LeCHER: No. When you were within the organization and you knew that information could be used against you, did you continue to receive auditing in spite of the fact you knew that?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. I wasn't aware until after I got out that my auditing was going to be used against me, honestly. I don't think any person's really aware until they get out that their auditing is public information.

You get — you're in the — you don't believe anything. You couldn't possibly, if you're a staff member, believe anything other than that the group is great. And you don't believe that's true. You're conditioned and brainwashed, and you don't believe those things until they happen.

MR. LeCHER: Why did you disconnect from your family?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Because my parents were supposed to be suppressive people, as far as Scientology was concerned. I found that my parents are the most sanest people that I have around me, currently.

MR. LeCHER: With all these things going around in Clearwater, why didn't you call the — well, I guess I can probably answer the question: Why didn't you call the Board of Health? But, apparently, you were upset about them and you just believed — I'm not going to speculate.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: That's a totally different issue. I did end up in an upset over that.

Another thing: Being in Clearwater and having my child in Las Vegas, it was not a very cool thing to get in a fight with executives in Clearwater and have your child in a different place and start a Board of Health thing. And I was too indoctrinated to realize the —that I had citizenship. I didn't realize I was a citizen until three years ago.

MR. LeCHER: You didn't realize you were a citizen?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely. I've not been a citizen of the United States; I've been a citizen of Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: Oh, but you don't mean it that you're an alien?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No, I'm not an alien in that sense; no.

MR. LeCHER: Do you remember where the children were kept when they were taken a mile and — an hour and-a-half ride from the Fort Harrison?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: No. They were at — the children were at Clearwater when I was there. They were setting up a different facility at that time, and the parents were upset because the facility was being removed from the Fort Harrison. Where the children ended up, only the parents at the Fort Harrison could answer that.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

MRS. GARVEY: Where were they kept at the Fort Harrison?

MR. LeCHER: Oh, at the Fort Harrison where were they kept? In the back —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: In the back, right behind the parking lot.

MR. LeCHER: Didn't the parents ever question that they don't want their children taken a mile — an hour and-a-half drive away?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Yeah. There were some parents that questioned that, and they got RPFed.

MR. LeCHER: Well —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: There were parents that definitely did question that. You know, motherhood and fatherhood is something that is a natural instinct and thank God for it, because that's why a lot of us, as we got older, got the hell out of there.

MR. LeCHER: What did it take you — what were your personal things — what did it take you to start raising questions? What was the final straw that you just said: "I've got to start questioning; I've got to get out of this organization"?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: David's death.

MR. LeCHER: David's death. That's your brother-in-law?


MR. LeCHER: Now, you're a mother and I assume a good one and all, but when you saw these children in such deplorable conditions and living in such deplorable conditions, didn't that bother you? Why didn't you report it somebody in authority in the county or city government or police department in this county?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I had this huge ideal that I could straighten it out internally in the organization, that it could be corrected as an internal problem.

With the training that I had, knowing policy and the way the operation of the organization runs — was running at that time, that I thought it would be better off to be handled internally and straighten things out. And that's — was probably my basic concept for a lot of years, and realizing nine years later that nothing really internally gets handled, that it really doesn't. It's one game against another, one farce against another, and that the whole thing was a lie.

MR. LeCHER: Well, the whole organization — in fact, these hearings have had a very disquieting effect on the City of Clearwater.

If we had some sort of other forum in the future with other people that are currently involved in the Church of Scientology who would like to come forward, do you think that would be worthwhile?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

I think that through the years, you'll have more and more Scientologists leave the organization. I consider myself a minor person that's left the organization compared to people that have been in twenty, thirty years or longer.

I think what would be interesting is — it's kind of like you're only skimming the top of the — the very top. And there are things that are wrong — people will have no idea until five or ten years the other things that we will find out and I find out will get documented as we go on, that there were a lot of things that happened. And there are a lot of things that still will come out.

And I don't know. Maybe we all ought to take lie detector tests. I mean, they'll certainly believe us then. That's what the E-Meter is.

But — I can't answer your question.

MR. LeCHER: Why would you participate in bringing someone back against their will? Didn't that bother you, either?


MR. LeCHER: Policy, okay.

Do you — you, especially, your mind — you felt like your mind was being controlled, but — how do you — how was your mind controlled? By just — by same thought, repetition, or — how did they control your mind?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, you can look at Korean brainwashing: no sleep, long hours. When you have someone that — all right. When you take someone and you don't put him on a diet, a normal diet of food, and you're eating a diet of heavy starches, fifteen to twenty hours a day, seven days a week, no freedom, you know — no freedom to really enjoy what's going on in life.

I'm sure if I was at the Fort Harrison on staff now that Saturday would probably be a big thrill if I got liberty and could see the beach. That you don't really have — you're not capable — you get so entwined in the organization: the repetitions, the terminology it's like a secret terminology and it's like a little clique when you're in high school — and you get caught up into that whole game and the constant over and over and over and over the same thing. It's just like when your Dad says, "Tie your shoes, tie your shoes, tie your shoes." And you tie your shoes.

MR. LeCHER: It seems to me that — I've asked this of one other witness but — it seems that you're a house divided against itself and I don't know how you could trust each other. I mean, if you're forced to work long hours for little or no pay and your child is rarely with you, and others participating like that, how in the world do you learn to — is the organization held together? I mean, without trust and friendships and loyalties —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: They think that they all trust one another, that they're working for one goal of mankind, which is a real fascinating thing. And if the staff really took a look at internally what's going on — I'm sure they've seen their GO personnel and their high executives — they're the target ones, presently. And if the staff, presently, looked around at all their heavyweights that were there a year ago, they sure are not putting their names on any kind of policies and they're letting some dumb staff members, as far as I'm concerned, become the —

MR. CALDERBANK: The scapegoat?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: — scapegoat, the kind — the guy that's going to end up in a Committee of Evidence is the fool that puts his name — the only thing I have to say about it: Don't ever put anything in writing.


MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, make sure that you don't put it in writing, because that was L. Ron Hubbard's stable datum. And that's exactly how you get yourself nailed. Don't put it in writing, because you will — they will — you'll find out eventually it's used against you.

MR. LeCHER: Well, Mr. Walters was in for seventeen years or more, two ladies were in for seventeen years, you're in for nine years. When all these people leave, who's left minding the store?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: When every —

MR. LeCHER: How will they replace these people?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well — so, what is — what you're really asking is — when all, the people leave, what they will have is what we used to call in Ethics the psychotic cases. They will be the guys that are left there at the Fort Harrison. It will be very interesting to see how the Fort Harrison operates at that point in time.

Because I think that the able beings — and I'm seeing what's going on, and as far as I'm concerned, the able beings are getting out; they're not becoming the scapegoats anymore. And the smart ones will get out. And what you will be left with is a lot of crippled, psychotic kids that have no background, no — their moral justice will be tied into — it's like a Nazi German camp: spying, you know, who can spy on who. And you will, probably, at that point in time have to have a lot of heavily trained people that know how to help them.

MR. LeCHER: Will they be classified as good Germans?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Well, if they take a look at what's going on, that's exactly what's happening.

MR. LeCHER: I have no further questions. I think that we've been questioning you long enough.

Mr. — do you have something you want to ask?

MR. CALDERBANK: Just — just one more.

LaVenda, you're — you were an auditor and you had a lot of professional knowledge in both giving and taking the auditing in Scientology in their courses and in their background.

As a professional opinion, then, would you feel that public scrutiny of financial transactions —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: — in the Church —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: — would either prevent you from giving or prevent students from taking or impinge their freedom?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. CALDERBANK: It would absolutely not prevent them, or it's absolutely needed to further this ability to —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Do you mean as far as — I'm not sure if I understand — giving the money?

MR. CALDERBANK: Would the scrutiny of their financial transactions —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Would the scrutiny of what they're doing color over their financial things?

MR. CALDERBANK: Would that have prevented you from giving —


MR. CALDERBANK: — work as a staff member?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: — I had been aware of what they actually were — what the high executives were doing with the income and been aware of what was really going on, I surely wouldn't have been in Scientology —


MS. VAN SCHAICK: — as a staff member.

MR. CALDERBANK: But what I'm asking is: Would that have prevented you, financial scrutiny of the transactions, would that have prevented you from taking your courses or giving your courses when you were a professional auditor?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Would it have prevented me from giving the courses?

MR. LeCHER: She has — I think she's answered the question.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I've answered the question, yes.

I would not do courses if I had known what was going on.

MR. LeCHER: I want to — the attorney —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I don't think I understand it in —

MR. LeCHER: I believe that you have in various ways, Miss Van Schaick.

Are you satisfied?

MR. CALDERBANK: I want to get back to the freedom of religion —

MR. LeCHER: We don't want to talk about freedom of religion. That's an —

MS. VAN SCHAICK: I can't —

MR. LeCHER: — issue that we shouldn't get into.

I want to ask this question for the City Attorney. He wants to know about this big scam that you mentioned in publicity and promotion. And how is this big scam accomplished?

You mentioned something and called it a big scam.

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Ten percent of their CGI has always been unaccounted for. And, basically, it's the gross income and what you take off the top in the organization.

In each city there is a — most of — like, in Las Vegas there was a mission and then there was what's called an org., or the main organization.

The mission holders, basically, were in control up until recently over monies that were going in and out of the organization, which made a lot of mission holders very wealthy, until — they have recently changed that. Orgs. were taking all of their money and sending it on to Los Angeles and to Clearwater. And they were, basically, just the workhorse — it's like the lower working class of the whole organization is what, basically, the orgs. are.

And while the orgs. are taking all the people in and flowing the money process, the executives are living pretty high on the hog if they really take a look at what's going on.

MR. LeCHER: Would it be safe to assume that if an org. takes in five hundred thousand dollars a week that fifty thousand dollars would be going to someone else?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MR. LeCHER: Off the top? Okay.

Do you want to ask —

MRS. GARVEY: One question.

MR. LeCHER: One question.

MRS. GARVEY: To your knowledge, is — Clearwater is Flag Base?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Absolutely.

MRS. GARVEY: So, all orders would come out of Clearwater? Whatever happens in the organization will come out of Flag Base, which is Clearwater?

MS. VAN SCHAICK: Through Clearwater. Everything gets cleared through Clearwater. Clearwater is the seat of the operation.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much for your testimony here —

MR. CALDERBANK: Thank you, LaVenda.

MR. LeCHER: You're another very bright young woman. We admire you and thank you.

Affidavit of Stephen Garritano

MR. FLYNN: At this time I will introduce the Affidavit of Stephen Garritano. And I'll read briefly from it. In order to save some time, I'll skip over portions of it and read the pertinent portions into the record.

"My introduction to Scientology was in January of 1977 when the following representations were made to me concerning the benefits of auditing in Scientology. These representations were that auditing was scientifically guaranteed to confer the following benefits," and then there is a number of them listed which I won't read.

And then there's a statement about Mr. Hubbard's background and representations and Mr. Garritano's reliance on them. "Based on the above representations, I joined the Church of Scientology. After two and-a-half years experience as a scientologist, I eventually discovered that the above representations were false and made for the single purpose to entice the people to purchase auditing and courses or join staff.

"In early 1979, I went to Flag Land Base in Clearwater, Florida. I contracted an illness which was later diagnosed as hepatitis. I received an injection/hypodermic needle from a Scientologist dressed in a white uniform, which I was told was a hepatitis vaccine. To my knowledge, this individual was not a medical doctor.

"I was later diagnosed by my father, Dr. Garritano, in the Beth Israel Hospital in Boston, to have suffered from hepatitis, mononucleosis, and strep throat.

"While in Clearwater, I observed the living conditions of staff members to be unsanitary. On one occasion I entered a small room, which was constructed to facilitate one occupant, inhabited by a minimum of eight people. These individuals slept in two triple bunks. and two single beds.

"Conditions for those individuals imprisoned in the Rehabilitation Project Force, RPF, were unhealthy and unsanitary. Those individuals were forced to live and sleep in the garage."

It's signed, "Stephen Garritano," under the pains and penalties of perjury.

If need be, Mr. Garritano, at some point, can be called to testify.

(The Affidavit of Stephen Garritano was marked as Exhibit No. 45, as of this date.)
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