How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview with

The impulse to believe the absurd when presented with the unknowable is called religion. Whether this is wise or unwise is the domain of doctrine. Once you understand someone's doctrine, you understand their rationale for believing the absurd. At that point, it may no longer seem absurd. You can get to both sides of this conondrum from here.

How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview with

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:43 am

Part 1 of 6

by Mark Bunker
April 2008




"I could tell you about L10 -- L10 is a story in itself -- so just know that they used my f__king wins on the Ls and the Ls are what f__ked me up in Scientology."

-- Jason Beghe, "How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out"

[Transcribed from the video by Tara Carreon]



It would probably be useful for me to kind of go through this thing, because I'm still trying to discover what happened. I still feel a little lost and bewildered, and I don't quite get it. And that's a common thing for me in my life. Like some things politically, I can't get how people don't see that that politician is a liar. You know what I mean? I don't get it. And so for me, if I was going to write something, the concept of the title would be "How I got into Scientology and Why I Got Out."


As a little kid -- I'm talking about even before I could talk -- I can remember being interested in people, really interested in people. And I was pretty shiny, and everybody wanted to pick me up. And I didn't like that.


And I could SEE people. I felt like I could understand who somebody was pretty well as a little guy. And I might have had some judgment on it, but I didn't have a condemnation like, "Uhhh." I just thought, "Okay, that's dad" -- not just "daddy" -- and "Oh, okay, that's that guy, Uncle Gino;" and "this is this guy at the party" as a 3 or 4 year old kid looking around. And at a certain point, certainly before first grade, I became very, very interested in "Who am I?" Not just, "Oh, that's that guy I know," but I had some kind of a perception about a person.


And as a little kid, how I perceived the people in front of me -- whether it was accurate or not, I believed it was true -- was by kind of looking into their eyes and seeing who they are.

And so I remember as a little kid looking in the mirror -- not looking at how do I look -- looking and trying to say, "Who am I?"


And I would say, "Who are you? Who are you?" As a five or six-year old kid I remember it. Eight years old. It was pretty intense. And I never got it. And I thought, I guess that's just the life condition, it's too hard to self-perceive. And then, as I was growing up, I played the fool and did normal, stupid things, and drugs and whatever. But it was always something that was in the back of my mind. I was always on a spiritual journey one way or another, some New Age shit. Not a lot of organized religion. But by the time I was 14, I'd kind of lost interest in that. But I would read a lot, even to the point where as a 21-year old kid, I remember I was into the spiritual teaching of this one guy who was originally teaching in French, and I learned French just so I could read it in the original French. So it was important to me. But it was all based on "Who am I?" Kind of that Greek, "know thyself" philosophy.

So, somehow I got into Scientology, which was Bodhi Elfman was in my acting class, and my acting teacher, who was a big disseminator, Milton Katselas, was ranting about some shit which was pissing me off, because he was wasting class time. He was like, "You guys are auditioning me." He was pissed off and he wanted more unmitigated adoration, and he wasn't feeling like he was getting it. And in the middle of his tirade, I was at first thinking, "Who are these fucking people that are not flowing the correct amount of attention to the Master?" And then I looked and said, "I wonder if I am." And I said, "Do I trust Milton?" And I said, "No, I really don't."


And that was kind of like a weird thing. And I thought, "Who do I trust?" And I thought, "Well, at least my parents -- No, I don't trust them." Okay, I didn't trust anybody in the room. And then I had this realization: "I don't trust myself."

And so in Scientologese, I found my own ruin. And for some reason, I thought, "Oh, let me try and trust somebody; Let me try and trust Milton," which is what he was yelling and crying about in this whole big speech. And I knew he was a Scientologist, so I said, "Bodhi, give me some book on Scientology." I was doing a scene with him. And he was just a nervous little kid at the time. And so he gave me this big fat book called "What is Scientology?" It had a lot of pictures. And so I took this book and I read it. I think I stayed up most of the night and I read the thing. I don't know if I got it word for word. I didn't clear all my MUs for sure.


But I got through the thing and I thought, "Okay, if that's true, fuck, I'll go Clear. I'll try that. That sounds fine."

So I gave Bodhi the book back the next day and I said, "Take me to that big castle thing, I want to check this shit out." So he was very excited. He brings me in and everybody's all excited, and they've greased the path because I've been on TV and shit, and everybody's really nice. And I figured I want to do this purif thing, because I'd done drugs and I could feel them in my body. And I read the thing, what the purif's supposed to do -- and I felt at that point I hadn't done drugs in ten or fifteen years -- and I thought, "That was one of the biggest mistakes I'd made in my life." And I thought, "If this can really take that effect away," because I felt I had lost some of the shine that I'd had. I mean, I wasn't a drug addict, but I was a drug indulger.

So I go there basically planning on doing the purif, but they've got to give this tour. And I must have gotten there at 10:00 in the morning, and I swear to God, I'm starting to go nuts. I've done tests. I'm on the cans with some lady. I'm like, "Fuck me, can I just buy this course and let's get going?" And then they give me my personality test, and I was all on the top of the thing, and they are still telling me that I'm fucked up.


I must have been there 8 hours. I'm ready to pull my hair out! And they said, "You should do some little course called Ups and Downs." I said, "Look, I'll do the course, but can I just do the purif thing?"


"Yes, yes, yes, you just have to do the TRs and objectives with it." "What's that?" "That's this course." I said, "Fine, let's go."

So I buy the course, and now it's 8:30 at night and I say, "Can I start? And I had to get a little oral surgery. So let me do something. I came here for some Scientology, and all I got was everybody selling to me. I never got to do anything." Because I wanted to try the shit.


So now it's 8:30, and they say, "You can start your TRs course -- and the TRs are these communication drills -- then you do the purif, where you clear all the drugs out; then you do the auditing, which is called Objectives -- and it's like this stuff where you walk across the room and you touch the wall and all this kind of shit -- "the end phenomena is firmly rooted in present time." I said, "That doesn't sound bad. I'll do it. Okay if you can deliver that. Cool." So I said, "Give me some scientology for Christ's sake. I've been here nine hours getting nothing." So they say, "Okay, you can start your TRs course." So I go in and do this thing called M7, which is basically Bodhi and the supervisor are helping me clear the word through, and the first thing I ever did in Scientology was read, "Keeping Scientology Working." It was a pretty heavy bulletin.

Q. Explain what that bulletin says.

A. It says that basically Scientology -- well, it's a very interesting bulletin. It's updated, so you're reading the updates. It was written in 1965, and it was updated in 1970 and 1975. And those updates are before you read the actual bulletin.


And the updates are like L. Ron Hubbard just going bananas: "This thing is true. It was true in 1965 and it will be true forever. If you just follow this, Scientology will never fail, and we'll take over the universe, and we'll save all mankind, and we're the only hope for the world. So if you apply this one policy, everything will be fine."

Now, in the bulk of the fucking policy is stuff that is pretty heavy: that if you're in Scientology an inch, you're in -- you know, this is the billion year contract.


This is the heavy Scientology. "We are the only hope for mankind, and whether you get it or not, it's the truth, and we're not here to placate you. We're here to try and save the planet. And we're the only hope for mankind. And so this is no game." So that's the first thing I got. And I said, "Okay, we'll see." I couldn't say I believed that, but it was an interesting, bold claim that made me say, "Okay, all the more. Is this shit really that good? Let's go."

So here I am, I bought my little TRs and Objectives, and my purif, and I said to the supervisor -- because now by the time I was done it was 11:00 at night -- and I'm like, "Okay, when do we start?" And she said, "When can you come in to start the course, to finish up?" I said, "Let's start tomorrow. I can be here at 7:00 in the morning." And she said, "Well, we don't start until 9:00." I said, "I came here to do something. I've been here all day. You guys say you got a product." So she came in at 8:00 for me.

So I came in and I just started. And I read all of my shit in there, and it sounded good. And the first exercise is a thing called OTTRO, which is basically where you sit three feet apart from somebody -- you cannot have any thinking mechanism -- and you close your eyes, and you're totally relaxed. But there's another person three feet in front of you doing the exact same thing. And the exercise is to be in communication with that person and your environment, but fully -- the key word is -- confronting, which he defines as "facing without flinching."

So without thinking anything, without like I'm doing with you thinking, "Okay, Mark, he's got that beard and he's probably hiding behind it." Then I'm flunking, because I'm thinking instead of just being there. Without any thinking. And you do this, it says, until you get a major stable win. Okay? So I say, "Fuck it, okay, here's my first Scientology shit, and I'm there with whoever, and I'm sitting there and facing him without flinching. And I had a major, major stable win!


What I did, according to Scientologists -- and I don't have any other nomenclature for it, so it wouldn't work for me -- but I went exterior. So, in other words, the concept would be your thetan, you, your soul, whatever you want to call it, that's who you are. You're not the body. I'm not Jason Beghe. It's like buying a new car. I'm the driver of the new car.

So basically I went exterior and, to get back to the beginning of my story, I felt for the first fucking time the biggest win in my life. I knew who I was. That question that I'd been asking since I was cognizant, "Who am I?" I knew who I was!


And this was huge for me. I said, "Wow!"


And this isn't even that fucking auditing stuff they talk about. This is just some thing. And I said, "Shit! That's awesome."

So I was blown out of my socks happy. And I was like, "Oh, so that's who I am." Because I knew I wasn't this thing. Because I would sometimes have this personality, sometimes I was a phony. You never know if you're real or not. But then there's those moments when it's like, "Who are you?" And I could see I could create effects on people and stuff. I mean, it was really interesting. Why would this person like me? I knew why I liked them, but why did they like me?


Q. They said back in class that you didn't trust yourself. Why didn't you trust yourself?

A. I didn't know who I was.
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Re: How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:44 am

Part 2 of 6


So I go down and I say, "I want to buy this Clear thing," because that's enough for me. No reg ever had to reg me. As a matter of fact, I used to reg the reges. They would fucking run. Because I'd do things to them and stuff like that. I'd fuck with them. I liked doing that. So at any rate, I go to the reg and say, "I want to do this thing." And I figure it's going to be between $5,000 and $10,000. That purif thing was like $1,100, so the friggin Clear thing is going to be more. But I figured, "What the fuck." I had a couple of bucks saved. And they tell me the price of the thing -- and that's another thing, you know, the way they just can't say, "Oh, yeah, the Clear, it's $1,150." They're not used to somebody coming in and saying, "Let me get that thing." So that was hours and hours and hours. And of course, Bodhi, he's like sitting there with me, and he's going to get 10%, and he's excited because he was broke at the time. At any rate, it was like $50,000. So within three days -- and I probably had $60,000 to my name at that point -- I plopped down $50,000. I said, "Let's go."

Q. That's a huge commitment.

A. And so everybody fell in love with me. And David Miscavige called me, and he wrote me a letter and all this shit. And everybody got all this excitement about me. And then the other thing that cost $50,000 also was they said training. I said, "What's fucking training?" I just thought you sat there, you held those cans -- I'd done it in the interview, it sounded easy. And I say, "If it's going to be that great." And I remember reading what Clear is, and that sounds pretty fucking good. And all I'd done is sat there, and I knew who I was. Probably the biggest win I had in Scientology was on that first day.

At any rate, they sell me the training. And I said, "What's that?" "Where you learn to be an auditor." And I said, "Listen, I'm an actor not an auditor. You know, that's cool." And they're trying to get me to do this thing, and buy a fucking E-meter. "$3,000, what, for that fucking thing? It looks like a fucking transistor radio."


But I'm like, "Oh, man, okay." But I trust them. I figure they're delivering a thing. These are good people. And I'm looking at these people and these are decent people. They're decent, and I'm trusting. And so they sell me the training. The only reason I bought the training is they said it's half the wins. So in order to get the wins of the auditing and really going Clear, you have to be trained. I said, "Then give me the training package." So I bought a Class 5 training package because they said you have to be as Trained as you're Cleared. I said, "What's a Clear got?" "A Class 5."

Now you should know that a lot of people fall for this sales thing. And there is probably, I would guess, my guess conservatively off the top of my head is there is probably $500,000,000 million of unused training that has been bought. People buy it, but then they can't confront it. They can't face it without flinching. Me? I'm a Class 5 auditor. I fucking did it. I liked it. I thought it was cool. I actually got a lot of wins out of that shit. So that was part of another reason why people liked me, because I was actually doing it. I'd say, "I don't want to go on that audition. I'm going on a course." I was here to go Clear. I figure I can do this in about 5 or 6 months. What the fuck, you know? Let's go.

And I basically did that. You know, I stopped to do a little bit of stuff to pay the rent, but basically I was in the org from 8:00 in the morning. I had my own auditor, and she just audited me all day. I got all the other PCs off her fucking line, and I just went Clear. Well, actually, I went through my grades. It turned out I was a Past Life Clear.


That's why I was so able.

Q. Explain what that concept is, a Past Life Clear.

A. What is that? Oh, dear God. Past Life Clear.


Well, in other words, I was born in 1960. Scientology was developed in 1952 but before our age was doing Dianetics -- I'm having a moment.


See, this is part of the moments of coming out of Scientology, for me at least. I think it might be something common to a lot of people. But there are moments where you just feel a loss. And it's not a loss of "I miss Scientology," by any stretch. It's a regret of having invested so much in something that is empty.


And so there are these moments, and I just had one, where you just go, "Whoooo." So at any rate, a Past Life Clear would be somebody, even though LRH says absolutes are unattainable, that's a state that he called a Homo Novus. You're not even a human being or a homo sapien anymore. "Homo Sap" as he calls it. You're a Homo Novus, which would be "New Man" in Latin. So it's a new state on the evolutionary track. So I'm more evolved than regular mortal humans.


I was declared to have been somebody who had gone Clear in a past life, which would have been my last life.

Q. Even though, supposedly, the tech wasn't there for you to go Clear.

A. Well, no, you can go Clear. Dianetics was written in 1950. And he was talking about the state of Clear in Dianetics. I personally believe that there is always something being re-released, because it was not quite correctly done or understood. And all of the people who went Clear last lifetime, even though they may have been OT8s, were pulled back in, because in New Era Dianetics -- which was a later way of going Clear -- there were different criteria for what was a Clear and getting rid of an engram -- which is a whole thing -- and so you had to go in and get all the postulates off.

Q. And what were you supposed to achieve as a Clear?

A. Well, here's the thing. This is a funny thing for me. If you read Dianetics, the state of Clear is somebody who is never likely to get sick. He has a perfect memory. It's even intimated -- and this was in 1950 -- that he could be immortal. He may never die. It's pretty funny. So that's what the state of Clear is. They define it as "No longer has his own reactive mind," which is a rigged game to get somebody to take OT levels, which is their real money maker.

There's a guy on the Internet, apparently he was saying I'll give you a million bucks if you can demonstrate OT. I'll give a million bucks to anybody who can demonstrate Clear. There's no Clear. There's no Clear! Just looking in Dianetics, there is no Clear. Clear is basically what? Are you kidding me? Clear? So that's what I was going for. It's too good to be true.

And that's basically it. And that goes back to that feeling of loss, because -- you know what it is, I'm sorry to say, and I'm actually realizing something for myself right now, because this is cathartic in a way for me -- it's the same feeling, that loss is the feeling that I got --

Like I'm no stupid guy. I grew up in New York City, and I never got mugged, and I've been through some serious bad neighborhoods. But I remember one time I was living on my own down in the Village, and I saw this guy running across the street, and he had a VCR -- this is back when VCRs were a new thing, like a plasma TV or something -- and he'd obviously stolen the thing. And he's like, "Hey, you can have this for $50." And I bought it. I took it home and it was full of bricks and shit. And I felt I got conned. And that's the feeling of loss.

Because going back, you're asking me about Clear, it's a con. It's a con.


And this is way segueing, and I don't know if it will be interesting. But there's a book LRH wrote called "The History of Man." And he talks about a lot of these traps that can catch a Thetan, which is something that has no matter, space, time or location. But it can catch a Thetan. But he's got interest and curiosity, right? And so there are these things called Theta traps. And the best Theta traps are the ones that the Thetan runs on auto pilot. Like if I'm trying to enslave somebody, the last thing I want to do is have to worry about keeping the key and the lock. The best locks, you get a guy who keeps himself in jail, right? And that's what Scientology does. You just keep yourself in jail. And that's it. It's a perfect Theta trap, because you believe it, and you're investing your time and your money, so you can't be a fool. That's too much to "confront."

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Re: How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:45 am

Part 3 of 6


Q. When you were a kid, you said you were able to look at your dad or your uncle, and you could really perceive them, and understand them and know them. When you looked around at people in the Org, and you trusted them, do you think that there was a misperception there?

A. Well, I gotta be honest. The more I got in, the stupider I got. As I get out, that's my perception. I mean, Christ, you don't even ask questions! That's what I was trying to remember the other day that I was going to say that I had forgotten. Like this thing. They made me a commissioner of CCHR -- I'm talking to Tory --

Q. And the CCHR is --?

A. Citizen's Commission on Human Rights. This is a way to try and destroy psychiatry and psychology. And I was like, "Fine, I don't give a shit." They put my name on their stationery, and I'm like fine, it got me out of an ethics cycle or something. So I said, "Okay." But I would go, and I always had questions. Because even L. Ron Hubbard, he would always call the psyches, and he would rail about them, and how terrible they are, the sole course of destruction.


And I kept saying, "His own technology keeps saying that's a generalization: the psyches. Who?" "Psyches on the whole track." "That means all psychiatrists for billions of years in the history of Theta. You know, it's so general." And that's a characteristic of a suppressive person, one who speaks in generalities. And another one is a person who has overts, which are sins or crimes committed. This is somebody who is antagonistic or angry. And he seemed very antagonistic and angry about psyches. So I was thinking he must have overts on him. And he's speaking about them in generalities.

But the thing I was thinking about is that I went over to CCHR, and got tours ad infinitum by the director, Jan Eastgate, and I'd ask questions, and she'd write me up in ethics chits and shit. And I said, "Fine, yeah, I got the question. I don't fucking know." But I would say, "If you want me to represent Scientology's viewpoint, and you go to their museum, it's all 'the psyches are bad; the psyches are bad; this is a bad thing; and Hitler; and they're responsible for child pornography and rape; and it's all the psyches.'" And I say, "Okay, that's their viewpoint. But if I'm going to get into a discussion, if you want to prepare me to be a spokesman for this shit, I gotta know the other side." And I kept asking, "Can you give me the other side?" And they won't give it to you!


And every time I would push it, I'd be like, "Honey, there's no way to get into the argument. If all this is true, there wouldn't be anything. I've got to know their viewpoint. How am I going to win the argument?" You know what I mean? And they wouldn't give me the viewpoint. And then they started to write me up, because I'm doubting. I'm not saying I'm doubting or not, I'm just waiting for the data.

And there's this whole big thing about learning how to think correctly. There's this course called "The Data Series," that basically you have to get all the data. They won't give you any fucking data on certain things. And especially about this. There is nothing written in all the tomes of Scientology about psychiatry. Nothing other than "The psyches are responsible for all your sexual problems because they implanted you, as a Thetan, so many years ago."


And I realized that in my research of OT10. "Oh, well, then it must be true, cause LRH says it's so." You see how at a certain point you get conned? And I was saying, "Where's the fucking data?" And nobody is allowed to tell you anything.

So they always pull out this fucking reference called "Pain and Sex." And he's talking about pain and sex are these things that are really dogging people, and it's a really difficult thing that we're trying to help you with in Scientology. And basically there's maybe two sentences in there where LRH says, "Through my research in the whole track of OT something-or-other, I just discovered that this is all because of psyches." And that's the reference they tell you to prove that the fucking Hitler and rape is a thing. And I'm like, "Honey, that doesn't quite handle it." But they don't get it.

Q. I look at this as an outsider, and to me -- and I don't have a vast knowledge of this -- it seems that the psychiatric field sprung forth in the 1800s, not thousands of years ago, or millions of years ago. How are there psyches on the whole track if there weren't psyches?

A. Because these are THE evil people. These are the evil beings actually. And you hear about Xenu and all that shit? Xenu was a psyche. You got it?

Q. So he just wasn't a practicing psychiatrist?

A. No, he was practicing Xenuism. Got it? Now they're called psyches. So you better beware. Am I right? Fuck me.

Q. I remember one time I visited the Celebrity Center, just walked in late at night, and looked around and said, "What goes on in here?" And they woke up the projectionist to show me the orientation in my own private screening. And they had some poor Sea Org kid, maybe 15 or 16 years old babysitting me in the theatre --

A. Well, you're not allowed to watch the movie alone because you could get an MU. He was watching to make sure you didn't have any lack of mass kind of shit.


Q. He was making small talk before that. He was saying, "You remember the Salem witch trials? It was the psyches behind that." "Well, I don't think there were psychiatrists back then." And he went "Oh no no no, not the psyches, I mean the pharmaceutical companies."

A. Oh dear goodness. These are the kids you dash off a "Get Well Soon" card to and that's about it. Because it's sad. And this is the interesting thing, and it goes back to answer further the question of "What did you perceive?" What I perceived, and I kind of avoided the question by saying I got stupider, but let me tell you something. These are good people. These are some of the best people you can meet. These are people who really want to help. They're willing to give up their entire life and their own personal ambition to help others. That's pretty rare. And generally you would say it's a pretty decent person. And I would say, "I'm not a bad person." If I saw me walking around there I'd say, "He's okay."

Q. When you say you got stupider, how do you think that happened?

A. In my opinion, and again I'm only out of Scientology about a year or so -- less than a year, officially -- but in my opinion, what I've gathered as I wake up -- You know it's a funny thing in Scientology. You feel as though you're waking up to the truth or reality, what really is. But what you're doing is waking up to the reality of Scientology, which is the agreed-upon universe of what is.


And basically, in my opinion, the best thing you can be is yourself. And that's who you are. And there are degrees to which you can actually become yourself. And that's probably what the whole spiritual interest is.

For me, I don't really know. But the trick of Scientology is it makes you feel as though, you're sold that you're actually becoming yourself. But what you're actually becoming is -- my name's Jason Beghe -- I was becoming "Jason Beghe the Scientologist," rather than just, not even "Jason Beghe" but "me."


And the trick is, and you say, "How do I fall for this shit?" Go back to my first fucking win. Because it's me. It's me.


And so there IS you.


But then it's YOU through -- I can't explain it -- pressure of the group? This is the thing I'm trying to get, because I've never been a guy like "I've got to get a pair of those shoes, because everybody's wearing them."


It's more like, "I've got to find my own if everybody's wearing those things." But maybe that's how I got out to some degree.

I mean, I'm not saying that I never bought a BMW, or whatever the fuck people want to do.


But to me it gives you a way of thinking. And from what I observe from others, it is not native to that actual person. As I said before, in my opinion -- and I'm no Dalai Lama -- I think that the best thing you can be is yourself. And if you can do that truthfully, it will be beautiful and successful and interesting. I don't know about success, how you define it, but it will be a worthwhile time spent. And what happens is you are sold -- and again, the trap is good, because you sell it to yourself.


Because if you're not on course, you're wanting to be on course, and you should be on course. You got your own self in jail. It's an autopilot gig. It's quite good. I think there's some hypnotism in there or something. I don't quite know. But it's quite surprising.

Like here's an example: you start the ethics technology. So you start thinking, "Okay." And you start thinking in terms of the conditions of existence that he laid out, and that these are behaviors. And so now you're not just going, "You know, what the fuck? I think I need to take a walk. And I'm going to be an insurance salesman. And that's my truth." You have to go through these steps. It's like retarded. It's not true. It's NOT true.


And I did ethics cycles and conditions and nothing changed. I've seen people who have done them, and they've changed, so I don't know. Whatever. But there's a placebo effect. I don't quite know.

Tory, how many times did you do the PTSSP course?

]Tory] Like on and on and on.

Every time you go PTS, which is the human condition, you gotta do the course over. Let me tell you something: that's another racket. PTS.

Q. I'm not sure if we got PTS description on camera.

A. It's Potential Trouble Source. So all injury, accident and illness -- listen to those three words -- ALL, ALL! injury, accident, illness -- "Ow!" -- is all because of PTS.


Everything! Everything negative that happens is because of PTS. Which means you are a "P" potential "T" trouble "S" source. Wow! That sounds weird. A potential trouble source. So in other words, not only did you just slip and split your lip, but you better get away from this guy, because if you're near him, you're going to split your lip too, and your business is going to fail. He's a potential trouble source. So you gotta take him out. It's like you don't come to school with the flu. This is like the spiritual flu. So it's the heavy shit.

And there's only one reason that you're a potential trouble source -- one reason -- that you're connected to an SP, which is a suppressive person. Now this is the 2-1/2% of awful people -- like Tory -- who are fucking it up for the rest of us good people.


And oh, it's a funny thing.

You know, as I zip around, my best friend, this is my best friend -- in 9th grade I met this guy. This guy came to my school, and I saw this guy, and I was a gregarious kind of kid, and he was new, and I SAW him.


And I said, "You know something? You and I are going to be friends." That's the first thing I ever said to him. And I was right. He's a big famous actor now, and an amazing guy: David Duchovny. And David, my best friend -- I'm talking about a FRIEND -- our relationship was adversely affected by my being in Scientology. He was very cool, but he wasn't into it. He was happy for me. He never gave me any fucking thing about it. And I think his wife, I perceived that she was a little bit more like "hmmpph" -- like that. And they were right.

And then everybody in Scientology -- not everybody -- that's a generalization. I'll give you people: Marty Rathbun, Susan Watson, Dave Petit, a couple of RTC Terminals people said, "Well, he's a 1.1 SP," in other words trying to destroy my relationship with him. And it affected our relationship. "1.1" is a definition of covertly hostile. "Hey man, I'm your friend. I really am, you fuck!" That's covertly hostile. Covertly hospital. So one of the first things I did -- I mean, we'd stay in communication, but the further I got in -- Like that.


And that's a loss. Let alone my family.


You know, my family, shit, they don't fuck with me. But I've never been closer now that I'm out, because they weren't into it. Everybody was totally respectful of me. Nobody ever said -- my mother said one thing once, "I just don't think it allows for the grace of God." That was all. Because she's a big Christian. Of course, I whipped out the Whiz book and gave her the right answer and handled it.

But the thing with Dave -- this is the other thing I was thinking when I was laughing, is when I got out, one of the first people I went to see was David. And his whole family was out of town, and I was just moving here, and now we live in the same city. And so I went over to his house, and we were just walking around, and we talked about it a little bit. Just a little bit. And I'd say, "Oh, by the way." And he'd say, "Okay."


So we started talking a little bit about the OT levels, and stuff like that, and he doesn't watch South Park or whatever the fuck, and he doesn't know, so "What were you into? What is the OT?" I don't know what he asked. But somehow I explained to him -- and here I just basically walked out the door -- and it did so much for me -- but I started to explain to him the story of Xenu, and the loyal officers. And I couldn't get a third of the way through the story when we had our faces on the floor, we were laughing so hard. I mean we couldn't even talk, because it was so retarded! It's insane!


Q. So what was your reaction when you saw the packet with the info? How did you react?

A. Well, that's the other thing. I gotta say, and I told you earlier, I had been on a spiritual journey long before Scientology. This data is as different as the word "Thetan" is different from the word "Spirit." It's about that different. I mean, the Bible talks about the Devil and demons. It's nomenclature. "Entities" is what they talk about in these New Age religions. So all that stuff about "Thetans," because I was in Scientology heavily, I was a little bit like this.


But I thought, "Okay." And I remember that was my thought. "Okay, that's obvious." It wasn't that big of a surprise to me. It's like one of those moments, now that I look back and really look at it, there was a moment where I could have woken up there. But you choose not to. And that's part of the reason why Scientology is expensive. Well, if you're paying a lot of money for it, it makes it more valuable.

Like I was just listening to the fucking radio today. There's this guy, he was working at MTV in New York -- this was just on NPR today -- and he was on this art channel on NPR, and he was working at MTV and they were talking about packaging and marketing, and how important it is. And this other guy says, "It's not that important." And he said, "Bullshit!" And they had a little bit of an argument. And he said, "Let me show you something." And he was in New York, and he went and got a little garbage, and he put them in little plastic boxes, and he put a little stamp on it, and dated them, and signed them, and numbered them. And he's selling them for $50 each as art. It started as $10, and it was like a little gift. But now that they are up to $50 and $100 each, people are actually calling them "art." So it's an interesting thing.

So again, you're driving the car. It's just that you don't realize that the car -- as a Scientologist, because you're in the trap -- it's got a pre-rigged route. It's called "The Bridge." So you feel like this is the easy life. "I just got to sit here and the car basically drives itself. All I gotta do is show up at the Church and I'll be happy." And there you are. And you're on the Bridge to total freedom. To total freedom! Yeah, they free you from yourself.

Q. That's one of the ironic things about Scientology, is they have the slogan called "Think for Yourself." And you find yourself thinking exactly what Scientology wants you to think.

A. But you're doing it yourself. That's why it's pretty good. It's really insidious. It's so bold and bald-faced, that you just would never suspect it.

It reminds me, remember, I used to smoke cigarettes. So I smoked cigarettes, and I wanted to quit. And I'm smoking, smoking, and these new cigarettes came out from American Spirits. And they're supposed to be all natural. And the fucking thing on it said, "Addictive free." And I said, "Bullshit." So I started smoking it, and I'm down to two cigarettes a day. And I'm like disseminating the shit out of these things. They are the best cigarettes in the world. And I'm telling everybody, "These are addictive free. I'm hardly smoking at all." I said to this guy, "Look, it's addictive free." He says, "Additive free." And I went right back to a pack a day.


It's the same kind of thing. You're playing the game by yourself.

Q. I don't think it's fair to say "by yourself," because it seems that this entire structure of Scientology is built to follow you onto the Bridge, and keep you on the Bridge.

A. Yes, yes. And those people that I suspect, and again I'm not an expert, and this is one of the things that I can't fully confront yet, I can say that in my opinion the lion's share, at least well over 99% of your Sea Org people are the truest of the true believers. So they are really trying to help you. And they'll not take no for an answer. It's like your son wants to touch the stove, and you're willing to physically stop him, even though he's sure he wants to see that beautiful blue thing dancing there and touch it, and maybe even put his hair in it, or something. He doesn't know what fire is. They're willing to give their lives practically to keep you on the Bridge, because this is for your own good. But that's just one individual. And that individual is doing his job. There's not a lot of them that need to be told to get up in the morning. They're on autopilot too. But the whole group becomes this living breathing thing.


And the thing I haven't quite confronted is, I can't see quite the fuck what anybody gets out of it.


Like COB, does he want $300,000,000 million? Is that what it is? Does he want a billion dollars?

Q. And COB is David Miscavige.

A. Is that it? Is it just his power hard-on? Or is it just insanity? And I wonder, was LRH just crazy? Maybe he was an SP. But I don't know. The jury's out for me.

Like if I wanted money, if I wanted a billion dollars or something like that, I couldn't do that.


I'd probably kill myself. I just couldn't live with myself like that. I certainly couldn't look my son in the eye. But that's me. Maybe that's me PTS. Maybe I'm fucked up. Maybe that's my conscience, whatever the fuck that is. I don't know. I haven't quite had that confront of truth or evil, depending on what you want. I don't know what the fuck anybody wants out of it. Like all this money is a big thing. Where does it go?


Q. We see recently there was a video released of Tom Cruise's birthday aboard the Free Winds, and I understand there was six figures spent on the birthday party for Tom. And that's parishioners' money going to keep Tom Cruise happy.

A. They figure that's worth it. Just him being Tom Cruise, from their viewpoint, he probably brings in $100,000 a day for the Church in terms of interest and positive public relations. So six figures ain't dick. Certainly you could throw a party for him every day, and it wouldn't really put a dent in their bank account. People like to get mad at COs who take these big things, and Tom Cruise's party -- the fucking Free Winds is a flea bag. It's not a fucking nice boat. I've been on that thing. I got seasick every time.

Q. Speaking of Tom Cruise, you were talking earlier about your identity being stripped and being replaced with that of "Scientologist," and certainly you can see that in Tom Cruise. Did you see the videotape that was released?

A. Yeah, but I would suspect that that's what happened. And he was off for a while. And he's in gung-ho. I'm sure he went through a big ethics cycle and "woke up," because he probably had some trouble with his wife, and he found his ruin. Maybe he has trouble with girls, or something like that. That might be his whatever.

Q. At any rate, he seems like the ideal of what a Scientologist should be. I mean, dedicated.

A. Well, I was in there. COB called me the poster-boy for Scientology. I was as gung-ho as you can get.

Q. How did it turn around for you? Why did you start to doubt?

A. Well, it not only did not work anymore, the more auditing I did -- which I was encouraged to do -- the worse I got. I was starting to go fucking crazy. And it was fucking me up!

Q. How far up the Bridge did you go?

A. I'm a Class 5, OT5. I've done all my Ls, done a lot of -- what do you call those fucking things? -- all those other courses, Data series things, and blah blah blah. You know what's interesting to me? There was a big thing, maybe two years ago, or 1-1/2 years ago, that everybody wanted you to listen to your congresses.

A congress is a meeting that LRH had, starting in the early 1960s, and he would get a group of people together and he would give a series of lectures on "X." And usually it was all about Clearing. All the congresses had to do with Clearing. Remember that I'm talking about the congresses.


I'm going to give you an unabridged version. Is that okay?

Q. Sure.

A. You sure? When I was in that TRs course, my very first week in Scientology -- now again, I'm an actor, so communication is something I kind of do for a living -- and so that's a whole course about communication. So I thought I'm pretty good at this naturally. And one of the exercises they use is Alice in Wonderland, which is full of these wild kind of sentences, and you take it, you read it to yourself, then you deliver it as your own. That's a TR1. A TR2 is properly acknowledge somebody. So they say, "Off with your head," and you say, "Thank you" to make sure they know it, and end it, and there's all these other things. Now, here I was doing this TR, and it happened to be TR2. And somebody said, "Off with your head," and I said, "My God!" and they flunked me. And I said, "Why?" And they said, "Because it's just supposed to be 'thank you.'" I said, "No. Read the fucking thing. It says 'appropriate acknowledgment.' If somebody says, 'Off with your head' -- why do you think he chose Alice in Wonderland?'" And they bring the head technical person of the place, and they're all invalidating the shit out of me, and I'm sticking to my guns. I finally am crying, and I said, "You guys are fucking wrong! Who the fuck talks like that? 'Thank you. I got it. Okay. Good. Wow.' That would be way too much, 'Wow. I totally duplicate that.'"


This is the way you're supposed to talk. I'm really talking to you, but do you see how I'm not? So this is perfect in terms of their idea. 'Alright, I got it.' So that was GOOD TR. It wasn't excellent. Excellent TRs is more like this: you know, you're really conversational, but I'm not moving, and I'm really looking at you ready for everything, and I don't blink and your eyes stink.

So it's that kind of fucking deal. Sum gum war sue up. That's just a private joke. You know that one, right? Moo gum guy pan. These are words so you can talk gibberish in Scientology to help you learn your TRs. And one of the things written down is sum gum war sue up. That's not a sentence. It's written like Chinese, "Sum."

Anyway, so I'm in there and I'm fucking crying and shit, blah blah blah. So finally I stop and I toe the line, and I'm "Thank you. Okay. Good."

And then about four years later, in some event, COB David Miscavige says, "Hey, there's been this big breakthrough in this Gold major tech -- fucking piece of shit! -- and here's the real thing! People have been doing the improper acknowledgement. You're supposed to have, it says 'appropriate acknowledgement.'" And they have LRH on tape saying, you know, somebody says "Off with your head," and he goes, "My God! That's the right way to do it!" So here I was, this guy, first day of school and I had it right.


Now, Cut 2. You're asking me how I got out. So I'm in the fucking thing, and they keep telling me I gotta do this action. And I gotta do this. And you gotta do this sec checking, and all this shit. And I'm like "You fucking people! I wouldn't show up here if I wasn't ready." And they would be sec checking, which is basically asking me for my crimes, and charging me thousands -- I probably paid $50,000 in sec checks to get this shit together -- because everything was fucked up, so it must be that I'M fucked up. And I kept saying, "These sec checks are killing me!" * And they'd say, "This is the standard tech now. This is the gold major tech." And I finally said, "You know something motherfuckers?


I don't care! You could get LRH to fly down here, back from fucking Target 2, and tell me that I am fucking doing it wrong. I am not going in session and doing this shit. You guys are fucking killing me! I am here to tell you: YOU ARE FUCKING ME UP! So I'm out of here until you fucking wake up. Okay?"

And then they'd come back to my house and they're offering me free auditing. I said, "Show me where free auditing is standard? You're not giving me standard tech, and now you want to fix it by moron standard shit? Get the fuck out of here!" You ask Griffee Blythe and the whole rest of those motherfuckers at AO if this is a lie.


It's the fucking truth. And I'm out! And I just went on course because I couldn't take any more of this fucking auditing. It was killing me.

So then they come out with this thing, "Jason, you HAVE to see this!"


I wouldn't even go to events, because me, I'm at an event, and everybody's like, "Hey, how you doing?" And I go, "GOOD!"


I just couldn't fucking lie anymore. I'm ready to fucking die! And I told them, "I'm not going. I can't participate." Because my role was like "Jason Beghe!"


I couldn't be like "Yeah, well, to tell you the truth, I'm fucked up! I hate OT5, and everything's going fucking shitty, and it's not fucking working, and it's costing me a shitload of money! And I'm more unhappy than I've ever been in my entire fucking life!

Another Sec Check

1. Do you lie about yourself?
2. Do you suppress yourself in some way?
3. Do you suppress life?
4. Do you connect yourself with bad influences?
5. Do you connect up with bad memories?
6. Is there some connection you wont let go of?
7. Do you always act in a certain way?
8. Do you own your loyalty to no one?
9. Are you doing yourself in?
10. Do you ant to or intend to do yourself in?
11. Are you on a succumb?
12. Do you wish to succumb?
13. Do you plan to let yourself go unrestrained?
14. Have you ever sought revenge on your family?
15. Have you ever done a family member in?
16. Have you made someone in your family guilty?
17. Have you ever brutalized another with sex?
18. Is sex destructive?
19. Is love harmful?
20. Are you best left alone?
21. Is rape justifiable?
22. Do you hold the opposite sex in contempt?
23. Are women stupid?
24. Do you lie about sex?
25. Do you have a secret desire to annihilate the opposite sex?
26. Is violence justifiable on a woman?
27. Are you implanted to feel a certain way about sex?
28. Do you have a dirty mind?
29. Are groups worthwhile?
30. Is there a leader you’ve done in?
31. Do you have a secret hatred towards groups?
32. Are you desirous of a group’s support?
33. Have you let any group die off?
34. Are groups better left to followers?
35. Are you spied on?
36. Is someone after you?
37. Do you have an evil impulse towards any group?
38. How long should any group last?
39. What makes a group fail?
40. Do you plan to seed the growth of unrest in any group?
41. Do you judge people by race?
42. Are certain religions harmful?
43. Is there any race you have it in for?
44. Does it pay to be destructive?
45. How powerful do ;you have to be to be successful?
46. What connection is sacred?
47. What part of mankind is harmful?
48. Have you justified a destruction of a race?
49. ARe other people necessary?
50. Is there some object you are connected with?
51. Is there a certain time period you dwell upon?
52. Is there something your energy is absorbed in?
53. Is there a space you are forbidden in?
54. Are spirits evil?
55. Is your spirituality threatened?
56. Are spirits overpowering?
57. Have you squashed a thetan out of existence?
58. Has your existence been questioned?
59. Have you lost out to a body?
60. Do you seek revenge against a spirit or thetan?
61. Are you a traitor?
62. Is your cause lost?
63. Do you intend to create havoc?
64. Is life worth living?
65. Are people better off dead?
66. What makes people insane?
67. Why are people suspicious?
68. Is there a past life that was a failure?
69. Is there a past life that was important?
70. Is there a past life that you can’t talk about?
71. Is there a past life that was evil?
72. What past life was critical?
73. What past life was suspicious?
74. Are you facing eternity with lack of hope?
75. Is eternity a dreaded matter?
76. What would move you to violence?
77. What motivates mankind?
78. Are you motivated by any impulse?
79. Why do people hate?
80. Is your survival dependent on an outside source?
81. Is your destiny decided by someone else?
82. Should you be punished forever?
83. Will all be the same?
84. How can you be stopped?
85. How can you be made nothing of?
86. Is there hope for man?
87. Has this all been run on someone else?
88. Are you waiting for something magical to happen?
89. Have you decided it was a waste?
90. Do you intend to make trouble after the auditing?

-- "The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology," by L. Ron Hubbard

Q. What would happen if you spoke truthfully?

A. I would talk to RTC and all these things -- but it's bad PR! It's not anybody's business. You're not suppose to talk about "your case." So this was going on, honey -- I was in Scientology maybe 10 or 11 years -- the last 8 years like that.


And I'm paying fucking money. Maybe I paid a million fucking dollars, I don't know. I don't even keep track. I just said, "Okay, here's another fucking thing. This is going to work -- you think so?" "Yeah, we finally got it."

So I'm out of this thing, and I'm doing course, and I'm just off auditing lines and "You GOTTA see this thing, Jason. It's going to fucking KEY YOU OUT!" And I go in, and they show me this fucking thing, and I'm looking at all these people who are on OT7, and they're going nuts with the sec checks too! And I'm like, "This is fucking crazy!" These people, they're supposed to be home auditing, and then they have to go to Flag every six months, and they're there for like six fucking weeks. How are you supposed to -- what, are you crazy? And they're coming home like [making paraplegic motions] "Uhhh, uhhh, I had a really good six months check."


I mean, it's just as clear as day, I tell you: this is not fucking standard. Scientology is not supposed to make you worse. I saw it; I'm experiencing it; and watching it.

So now they come out -- and this is two or three years later -- and this little mistake probably made the church about $500 million dollars. And then about $500 million dollars later, COB gives a fucking briefing on the Free Winds, and this is what they show me is, "Arbitrary's cancelled!"

It's an arbitrary, is what they say. In other words, all this sec checking was an arbitrary. And through his research, and looking into things, and re-checking all of LRH's notes, they realize they made a mistake. And so now I don't have to do the sec checking, "Aren't you happy, Jason?" And all these people like on 7 -- like a bunch of fucking idiots -- were like "Arbitrary's cancelled!


And I can just go on. It's going to save me about $50,000 a year!" And all this shit. And it's like "Wow!" And me, I'm like, "You think that's supposed to make me fucking happy!? I feel like you should give a fucking apology." I said, "If I were COB, and I made that mistake, I wouldn't go 'Arbitrary's cancelled!' I'd say, 'I made a fucking mistake. I'm sorry.'

And I'd make up the fucking damage. I'd pay." My fucking mistake made me $500 fucking million dollars and you don't even say you're sorry? You say, "Guess what?" And this is what the fucking thing does. It just plays the same game over and over again.

And we're going now to the congresses. Toward the end of this eight years, and I'm like off auditing, you know -- I finished OT5 finally -- and I said, "I don't want any more of this shit." And nobody even said, "Take OT7," because apparently I'm in the middle of four fucking actions, and nobody knows what to do.


So I'm in the middle of L10 -- I could tell you about L10 -- L10 is a story in itself -- so just know that they used my fucking wins on the Ls --


and the Ls are what fucked me up in Scientology. *


So I say, "Fuck it. I'll buy these congresses. It's only a couple of thousand bucks, and I got something to do. I'll get in shape. I'll listen to the congress and go for a walk." I was one of the first people to finish the congresses. And I get up early. I get up at 5:00 a.m. And I just get up. And I'd take the dog and I'd go and listen to three tapes, and walk for an hour or two, and do the thing. That's how I got through the congresses. And the congresses are part of what got me out of Scientology.


Because if you listen to those fucking congresses, it goes like this: "Hi, everybody. I'm LRH. I'm very happy you're here. Listen, I've got great fucking news. We've got Clear handled! And you'll do this thing, and it's this new technology, and here's the realization, and this is fool-proof, and this is it. And now welcome to 1964!" Because apparently the fucking thing didn't work in Dianetics. Even though nobody said it didn't, But they were always trying to perfect Clear.

To compound the compounded felony Miscavige’s minions are boasting about putting the quickied Grades pc straight onto the Ls Rundowns. The L’s compilation is an overt product that has been known to Miscavige as so confusing as to be the number two cause of failed and severely complicated cases in Scientology. The L’s have been on the “compilations correction line up” as a top priority for nearly twenty years. The simplicity of how the Ls create as many botched and failed cases as they have advanced cases is mind boggling. It too has been reported to Miscavige directly. He refuses to fix it, and instead promotes it to cases incessantly, knowing that a good fifty percent of them will wind up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in endless reviews, and a good percentage of those ultimately will blow off from Scientology severely disaffected.

-- Marty Rathbun, "Mark 'Marty' Rathbun's Place



1. Have you ever denied yourself an opportunity?
2. Is there something you haven’t let yourself have?
3. Have you ever deliberately made someone think badly of you?
4. Have you ever made someone punish you?
5. Have you ever distrusted yourself?
6. Have you ever made yourself sick?
7. Have you ever deliberately hurt yourself?
8. What haven’t you let yourself do?
9. Have you ever considered anything to be “Much too good for you”?
10. Have you ever hated yourself?
11. Have you ever decided you were unworthy of your friends? family? job?
12. Have you ever prevented yourself from accomplishing something?
13. What haven’t you let yourself feel?
14. What haven’t you let yourself think?
15. Have you ever restrained yourself from a desired sexual experience?
16. Is there anything you won’t let yourself eat? drink?
17. What won’t you let yourself see? hear? touch?
18. What won’t you let yourself understand?
19. Have you ever attempted suicide?
20. Have you ever misused a body part?
21. Have you ever punished yourself?
22. Have you ever lied to yourself?
23. Have you ever failed to care for a body part?

2ND DYNAMIC (Family)

1. Have you ever been a disturbing element in a family?
2. Have you ever joined a family out of revenge?
3. Have you ever disowned a member of your family?
4. Have you ever gotten a relative into trouble?
5. Have you ever worked against your family?
6. Have you ever badly raised a child?
7. Have you failed to provide for a child of yours?
8. Have you ever split up a family?
9. Have you ever had a bastard?
10. Have you ever passed off a bastard as legitimate?
11. Have you ever claimed a blood-relationship you didn’t have ?
12. Have you ever forced a child into an unsuitable profession?
13. Have you ever forced a child into a loveless marriage?
14. Have you ever interfered with an inheritance?
15. Have you ever had a member of your family incarcerated?
16. Have you ever had an abortion?
17. Have you ever exposed an infant?
18. Have you ever physically injured a relative?
19. Have you neglected your child’s education?
20. Have you caused hostile factions within a family?
21. Have you ever lived parasitically on your family?


1. Have you ever sexually aroused someone and then not satisfied him (her)?
2. Have you ever been sexually aroused by an object?
3. Have you ever aroused another sexually with an object?
4. Have you ever made love to a person of the wrong age?
5. Have you ever made love to a person of the wrong sex?
6. Have you ever made love to a person of the wrong class?
7. Have you ever made love to a person of the wrong race?
8. Have you ever made love to a creature of the wrong species?
9. Have you ever made love to someone who belonged to another?
10. Have you ever taught another perverted sexual practices?
11. Have you ever invented perverted sexual practices?
12. Have you ever used sex unethically?
13. Have you ever made love to a person you disliked?
14. Have you ever used the wrong body part for intercourse?
15. Have you ever caused someone to be castrated?
16. Have you ever made someone’s body more exciting by warping or distorting it?
17. Have you ever raped anyone?
18. Have you ever failed to have intercourse with someone you should have?
19. Have you ever had sex with a member of your own family?
20. Have you ever made love to a person of your own sex?
21. Is there anything about your sex life that would be unsafe to reveal?
22. Have you ever misused sex?
23. Have you ever withheld sex?
24. Have you ever stood up a date?


1. Have you ever joined a group without being qualified?
2. Have you ever given a group less than you received from it?
3. Have you ever split a group into factions?
4. Have you ever perverted the purpose of a group?
5. Have you ever made a group too dependent on you, and then left?
6. Have you ever belonged to a secret society?
7. Have you ever gone over to the other side?
8. Have you ever been an informer?
9. Have you ever brought your group into disrepute?
10. Have you ever weakened your group?
11. Have you ever been a spy?
12. Have you ever been a double agent?
13. Have you ever permitted your group to be wiped out?
14. Have you ever joined a group you considered bad?
15. Have you ever given a group bad leadership?
16. Have you ever given a group bad service?
17. Have you ever provided badly for your group?
18. Have you ever made your side lose?
19. Have you ever injured the survival of a fellow group member?
20. Have you ever enturbulated a group?
21. Have you ever done anything to a group?
22. Have you ever destroyed or reduced the survival of your own group?


1. Have you ever treated a member of your species like an animal? a machine?
2. Have you ever made territory uninhabitable?
3. Have you ever resigned from the human race?
4. Have you ever pretended to be a human being?
5. Have you ever done anything to keep mankind from uniting?
6. Have you ever tried to exterminate a species?
7. Have you ever pretended to be a member of a different species?
8. Have you ever denied a species a place to live?
9. Have you ever prevented a species form reproducing?
10. Have you ever perverted the purpose of a species?
11. Have you ever kept your own species ignorant?
12. Have you ever eaten a member of your own species?
13. Have you tried to start a war among your own species?
14. Is there anything you’ve done to a species that would be unsafe for you to reveal?


1. Have you ever treated living creatures like objects? machines?
2. Have you ever damaged crops?
3. Have you ever used bad breeding stock?
4. Have you ever eliminated good breeding stock?
5. Have you ever crippled or killed living creatures for fun?
6. Have you ever cut down trees without replanting?
7. Have you ever let weeds take over cultivated areas?
8. Have you ever failed to fertilize crops?
9. Have you failed to provide water for livestock? crops?
10. Have you ever put life forms to strange uses?
11. Have you ever polluted water sources?
12. Have you ever killed off a useful species faster than it could breed?
13. Have you ever abused a living creature?
14. Have you ever castrated or spayed domestic animals?
15. Have you ever bred warped life forms?
16. What life forms have you eaten?
17. What life forms have you fed to other life forms?
18. Have you ever kept a life form in an unsuitable environment?
19. Have you ever destroyed other life forms?


1. Have you ever failed to maintain a machine properly?
2. Have you ever destroyed a useful object? beautiful object?
3. Have you ever hid an object?
4. Have you ever made harmful combinations of matter?
5. Have you ever wasted metals? chemicals? inorganic materials?
6. Have you ever misused a tool? machine?
7. Have you ever forgotten how to build something?
8. Have you ever perverted the use of a scientific discovery?
9. Have you ever built something destructive?
10. Have you ever built something that didn’t work?
11. Have you ever made an ugly “work of art”?
12. Have you ever put things too far apart?
13. Have you ever put things too close together?
14. Have you ever made a location a mystery?
15. Have you ever misplaced something in time?
16. Have you ever forgotten a place?
17. Have you ever made an object mysterious?
18. Have you ever made something vanish?
19. Have you ever made something imperceptible?
20. Have you ever misapplied energy?


1. Have you ever denied the existence of Beings?
2. Have you ever made people believe they weren’t Beings?
3. Have you ever persuaded others some thoughts are bad?
4. Have you ever made a Being believe he was evil?
5. Have you ever made another forget?
6. Have you ever forced a beingness on another?
7. Have you ever made another believe he was somewhere else?
8. Have you ever made another believe he was in a different time?
9. Have you ever made another believe he was someone else?
10. Have you ever confused another’s memory?
11. Have you ever persuaded another there were things he must resist?
12. Have you ever prevented another from perceiving?
13. Have you ever prevented another from being something?
14. Have you ever convinced another his postulates didn’t work?
15. Have you ever made another experience something he didn’t wish to?
16. Have you ever convinced another that he was weak?
17. Have you ever convinced another that he was incompetent?
18. Have you ever convinced another that he was insane?
19. Have you ever convinced another that he was stupid?
20. Have you ever convinced another that he was dishonorable?
21. Have you ever driven another insane?
22. Have you ever enslaved another?


1. Have you ever doubted the truth of your religion?
2. Have you ever desecrated a holy place? sacred object?
3. Have you ever disobeyed God’s commandments?
4. Have you ever failed to perform your religious duties?
5. Have you ever neglected an opportunity to save a sinner?
6. Have you ever been disrespectful to a holy person?
7. Have you ever compromised your religious convictions?
8. Have you ever attacked a religion?
9. Have you ever tolerated a bad religion?
10. Have you ever perverted a religion?
11. Have you thought evil thoughts?
12. Have you ever concealed (denied) your religion?
13. Have you ever changed your religion?
14. Have you ever committed a sin?
15. Have you ever convinced others that some things are unknowable?
16. Have you ever convinced another that there were effects he couldn’t create?
17. Have you ever convinced another there were places he couldn’t be?
18. Have you ever convinced another that there were Beings with whom he couldn’t communicate?
19. Have you ever convinced another that some things cannot be communicated?
20. Have you ever convinced another there were places he couldn’t leave?
21. Have you ever persuaded another that he never created anything?

-- The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology," by L. Ron Hubbard

Then the next Congress. And there were what, 20 or 30 of these fucking congresses? Maybe 200 hours or some shit. Every fucking congress is, "I got it this time!


Now we've got Clear handled. We've finally got Clear!" And this is going on over -- I'm listening from 1964 to 1970 -- and they still haven't fucking handled Clear, but they're selling you Clear. And I said "What the fuck? That's exactly what they're doing to me now."

And I went back, and I'm talking to Dave Petit, who is the head of CC, who is now handling my case personally. He's at my house. We're taking walks. I almost killed him once. I fucking took him by the tie and he was -- "Jason, please, don't hurt me!" I actually secretly recorded it. It's funny. I have it on audio tape. He didn't want me to leave: "Please don't leave! Please don't leave!" I said, "Motherfucker, get out of the way or I will fucking kill you!" And he wouldn't get out of the way. So I took him by the tie and put him down on the floor. And then I walked out. Because it'll get you pissed. That's how mad I was. My mind was fucked up.

It's one thing to feel unhappy. When I walked into Scientology, remember, I was on the top of the thing? It must have been false, though. I mean, I was fucking happy. And I'm fucking UNhappy. And they're making me pay to get fucked up. And they're telling me what's wrong with me.

And that's another fucking thing: they won't tell you what the next thing is. They're like "Believe me, it's good." You gotta fucking buy the thing for $50,000 a pop or whatever, and it's wrong! "Ooops. We made a mistake. We're going to do this now." Are you fucking crazy? Do you see how stupid I was?


And that's the game. I'm telling you. That's the game.

So at any rate, the congresses helped me out because I said, "What the fuck?" Because I never met LRH, and I figured he was good. I figured Scientology works, it's just these fucking mortals can't give me Scientology. If Scientology works 100% of the time, this ain't fucking working, so I'm not getting Scientology. And that's what I said to them. That's why I said they should give me the fucking money. It's one thing to make a fucking mistake, but let's say the last $600,000 was a fucking mistake. I mean, I feel like I got a case --


because if Scientology works, and they agreed this didn't work, I bought Scientology, THEN YOU SHOULD GIVE ME MY FUCKING MONEY BACK! And there's nothing to indicate that they have any fucking hope for "my case" now.


So I just said, "You know, babies" -- and I was trying to be nice, for six or eight months -- "Why don't you just let me go. Just let me go. Just let me go! It's better. You don't want to get into a whole fucking thing with me." And they wouldn't. And they had to keep changing Terminals. I'm talking about big fucking Terminals, because I would put doubt in their universe. Because you can't argue with my story. When you saw what happened to me, and you're a trained auditor, and you look in my fucking folder -- THEY FUCKED ME UP!


I mean, I'm talking about insane. I'm like [tortured gestures] "Huuhhhh. Huuuuhh!"


I mean, I've never been like that in my life. If I walked out, I was like "Hey, hi." I was never shy. I was never introverted. I'm sitting there, I'm like [angry suppressed motions] "Fhhhttt.





I'M FUCKED UP NOW! THEY FUCKED ME THE FUCK UP! "Oh, well, the way out's the way through." I mean, there's no reason to get in that room.

Maybe that was the hidden deep shit. I'm looking at my kid, he's five years old. He's a happy fucking guy. He's not fucked up yet. He might get fucked up later.

Q. Are you sure you were fucked up? Maybe you were just PTS to an SP.

A. Well, that's what I'm saying. And that's another thing. I had this big fucking car accident. In the middle of OT5 I nearly died. I was in a coma for 3-1/2 weeks. Everybody thought I was going to die. So of course, we've got to find my PTS terminal. That happened 8-1/2 years ago. And I got out of Scientology a year ago. In the last 7-1/2 years in Scientology, still no PTS item until I finally said, "It's you guys."


And they couldn't deny it. I said, "Look at the data." "Are you sure it's not that person? He's gay," somebody told me. I mean, that's how naive some of these people are. That's an RTC Terminal, which is like the gold standard of technical perfection, and they think that's a homosexual. So they believe that homosexuals are all 1.1.

Q. They still believe that?

A. There's some that do. I never believed that. I interpreted it differently. But it was something where I had to do some mental gymnastics in order to make it work.

Q. Well, that's what Hubbard wrote, though, that they were 1.1.

A. Well, it's debatable. Well, I know that he said something like "You're homosexuals" when he's saying the 1.1. So I don't know if it's all homosexuals or what.

Q. Yet, the Church has said that they no longer think negatively about homosexuals.

A. I've never heard the word "faggot" more than when I hang around the people at Gold, until the point where I said, "I don't like it. My brother's gay, and he sure ain't 1.1. I've got great friends of mine that are gay. You're telling me that Leonard da Vinci is 1.1? I don't think so. If he's covertly hostile, I mean he's got so much that he did that was good, that as much hostility as he may have exuded, I think he made up for it." I don't buy it. I never bought it. And again, in my own universe, when I was in it --


part of the thing when you're in it is that LRH is this super duper guy. So you make him into your own super duper guy, I suppose.

Q. If you're looking at the current management, David Miscavige COB, and you're thinking, "Well, is he in it for the money?" what's your view of L. Ron Hubbard now?

A. Again, I don't have all the data. I read some of the books that are critical. "Bare-faced Messiah" and "Madman or Messiah" and "Piece of Blue Sky." And then there's stories. So I don't know if all that's true. But it's consistent.

One of the ways for me that I can detect something is true or false is inconsistencies. You say the guy wore blue shoes and here's a picture of him in red shoes. So I never saw anything inconsistent. I didn't see it with my own eyes, but the person seems reliable. But again, here I am, I'm just pulling out of this thing, and I thought LRH was reliable. And I don't think so now. And you look at the whole death, and the death certificate, and all this stuff, it's hard to argue with. And you know, his kids.

Like my wife. My wife is an interesting person to talk to as well, because she's Class 4, OT5. But she's one of those people who could probably do heroin for a year, and just say, "You know what, it's making me too skinny," and just put it down. You know what I mean? And everybody loved her -- I mean, she was Jason Beghe's wife to some degree over there -- but she's a remarkable person in her own right. And one of the ways is that she's one of those people you just can't brainwash.

So when she got out, it was kind of like, you know, "That's it!" We didn't even talk about it. I said, "You know, honey, I'm thinking about doing this thing." I think she was like, "Okay. Fine. Whatever." Flip the burger. Because she had always pointed out things that were inconsistent also.

Q. Like what?

A. Like all these fucking OTs that aren't OT.


Like "That's a fucking OT?"


Q. And what's an OT supposed to be?

A. Somebody who is at least able. Somebody who can walk and chew gum. I mean, there's people who are "OT" that are some of the most incompetent, stupid people. My definition of "stupid" doesn't have anything to do with data or education. I'm talking about people who put their hand on the stove and go, "Hey! Hey! Hey! My hand's hot! My hand is hot!" I'm talking about that kind of stupid. Like unreal. What's wrong with you? There's some real dopes. But they have money, and they're successful, and they feel good about themselves. Because they're on 7.


"Well, I'm on 7 now. It's fucking great. I gotta tell you, you gotta get on 7." It's that kind of thing. And it gives them a thing. And I talked to [inaudible] and I said, "What the fuck? What is that?" Because these people, I might have had an issue with them, and they'll write me up and bring me to ethics. I got to handle this thing. And to the thing they wrote up I'd say, "What do you want me to say? It's true I guess." And they go, "Well, you know." I'm not going to say the name. You know who he is. I go, "Yeah." "Okay. We just had to bring it in because it's written up. Do you want to write anything?" "I don't give a fuck. Put it in the folder." Do you understand what I'm saying?

So that was some of the stuff that she would go nutty on. And even me, here I was, I told you the further I went up the Bridge, the more "casey" I became. You know, I met this girl, and she could see the more I did this shit, I wasn't handling dick.
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Re: How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:53 am

Part 4 of 6


Q. So once you left, how did you leave?

A. They wouldn't let me leave. They just kept saying, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." So I said, "Okay, give me my money back." And what I had was money on account. And per their policy, if you asked for your money, that was it.

Q. And they did give it back?

A. They gave my wife's money back. They offered to give me my money back, and they want me to sign a piece of paper that says I have no further claim against them. And I told them I can't do that, because I feel I do. I don't have the time or the money to get into a legal battle -- even though it's a million dollars they owe me conservatively, and in this country you do pain and suffering and maybe I can get a couple of extra bucks -- I just don't --

Q. It's tough to litigate Scientology.

A. Yeah, but I'm not going to sign some paper. It's just my own integrity. I couldn't say that.

Q. So what's happened since you left Scientology? I was talking to your wife a little bit earlier, and she was talking about the friends cut off from her, those who are still in Scientology.

A. Yeah. You know. Jesus. I got a little son, too. And he was in a little Scientology school. And he was four at the time. And we moved. So we were in the process of moving, and we moved to this big property out here -- it's a big different thing, and it's a long, long way away -- and they kicked him out of school.

Q. It was a Scientology school.

A. Yeah, they kicked him out. So he had nothing to do, and it fucked him up because, "Why can't I see my friends?" And that was all his friends. And this was a time when mom and dad were really busy. I'm working. We've got a little tiny infant at the time. And we're moving to an enormous thing. And plus, this whole place you're in, was under construction. There was a period when we were in one of those Airstream type of things. And nothing for him to do.

Our friends? I could see I was pulling away. I'm kind of an anti-social personality anyway, so I don't really hang around people. But my wife, with the kids and stuff. I remember a wonderful girl, Kelly Daniels, terrific chick, she found out, some ethics person told her, and she was just inconsolable. So I know there are a lot of broken hearts on the other side. And now there's not. I saw some fucking kid that I hardly know -- I do voice-overs, too -- so I went to a voice-over, and there was some kid from Scientology. And usually if I'd see him at a voice-over, he'd be like, "Hey, Jason!"


And he went -- and I said, "You fucking punk!" That's all I said to him.

You see, that's it in a nutshell. Both of them are a lie: the "Jason!" because we're Scientologists, and the [turns away] because you're out.

Like Tory's husband left her.


These people, their families are destroyed. There's the proof. There's the proof! You're incapable of being a good friend if you're a Scientologist, because you're a Scientologist.


And "Jason Beghe the Scientologist" is willing to lose David, is willing to sacrifice certainly the quality of my relationship with mom and dad and brothers and sisters, and God knows who else I could have made friends with who weren't Scientologists, because maybe they just didn't understand. And the most important thing in my life, again, going back to who I was as a kid, was a guy who was interested in people. And I wasn't judging people. I was just willing to be them. And maybe that's why I became an actor. And I grew up in New York. And I was like, this is people, people, people. Every day, growing up, I would meet somebody. You're on the subway. And now people go to the Home Depot with me, and we go, and I hang, and we talk, and we do a thing. That's who I am. And to some degree, you're not able to communicate, because you've got a bubble around yourself.

And another thing that made it a little easier for me to get out of Scientology than other people, was that I would always look at the religion side. Because, again, I was always interested in religion. And when they get exclusive, you got to wonder. I don't have anything against anybody's religion. It's fine. But the evangelicals are the only ones going to heaven. And the Muslims are the only ones going to Allah, or whatever. And the Scientologists are the only people who know. Then I go, "Well, I don't think so." It doesn't make sense to me.

One of the things that took the biggest hits is religion in this century. It fucked up a lot of people. You know, World War I was a vicious, awful war, different than others, with gases, and mustard gas, and it was terrible. And people were slaughtered. And it fucked up a lot of Germans and Americans when they'd go and see their bodies, and they saw that they had the same Bible. And they said, "Whoa! I thought God was on my side." So when things are bringing people further away from others, and distancing them --


and Scientology to the degree that I'm a different species -- "You're a WOG, I'm a homo novus, and I'm a homo novus enough to be loving of you" -- you see what I'm saying? That's pretty bad. And then you look at that and radical Islam, it's not that different.

Q. And yet Scientology says that they're not exclusive, that you can certainly be any other religion, and be a Scientologist.

A. Let me tell you something. I talked to many, many, many Terminals about this.

Because after a certain point, when I'm down on the fucking bottom after going through this -- And I've never complained about money. And I'm not rich. But I never complained about it. You never had to beg me for a fucking thing. I'd go throw down. When I was ready to do it, I'd say, "Let's go." And if I wasn't ready it wasn't because I didn't have the bread. If I'm going to fucking do this thing, I'm going to do it. And I got to be behind it. And that's where I was at as a Scientologist.

You know why they need all this money? You know what their real goal is? It's to Clear the planet. And you know what the good news is? We only have to clear about 3/4 of it. And just the fact of us being so Theta, the other 1/4 will just Clear instantly, and the SPs will crumble. You saw the little wicked witch when she got water thrown on her? That's what will happen to the SP. "Eeeeehhhh!"


Because after a while you start feeling like, "Hey man. This isn't a little mistake. That cost me $50,000." And when you do that a couple of thousand times you say, "Hey, I'm getting pissssed. That's a lot of monneyyy!" And I said, "Where's the money going?" And nobody ever gives you a fucking answer. And then, "We're trying to Clear the planet." I said, "Babies, I've got news for you. There's no fucking way. You can't fucking Clear Beverly Hills with these prices. There's no fucking way. It's physically impossible. Like they say Obama and Clinton can't reach the number? There's no way. There's not enough money. It can't be done. So that's a lie. They're not trying to Clear any fucking planet. And if they are, the price is going to have to go so far down, I said, "I'll wait then. I'll do it next lifetime when it's $250 to go Clear. Because I can wait another 40 years. And it'll save me a million bucks, and I'd rather my own kid go to private school. So, fuck it! *
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Re: How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:55 am

Part 5 of 6


Q. How are celebrities treated inside Scientology?

A. All I know is how I was treated, and my peers, who I hung out with. I know that it's a lot different. Actually, I do. Like this was another question for me. Like, here I was. I had Ray Mithoff, who is the head, top auditor on the planet, the senior CS International. I had RTC technicians, people, in L.A. And I had my own auditor, the CS, the Senior CS. And then they would all go over my folder. And they'd send it to Richard Reese at Flag, who is the Senior CS at Flag. And they'd go over it. Do you know how long it took me to get a fucking CS? Like I'd do a thing, and I'd make an origination like: "I'm not sure I like this." My next session would be about a month later, because they couldn't fucking handle it. Because there were so many vias on the com line.

So how was I handled? I was handled with the best attention ever. And I said, "If this is the best of the best" -- that's what I was saying to them at the end -- "If you're the best motherfuckers in the world, and you admitted you fucked the shit out of me, what happens to poor Schmo at Orange County Org when you first say, 'You just need ethics' or some fucking thing." He's still stuck in some ethics cycle going, [like a retarded person] "Where are you from?"


Because they fucked him up. And they say, "NO, YOU NEED MORE SEC CHECKING!"


And he can't afford it. And it's not even the right fucking thing!

These guys don't know what they are doing. They're fucking hoping. And the fucking crime of the bitch is them saying, "Aha! We're going to work this out. I'm going to put in a little oregano." And the other guy says, "too much salt." And "Here's your folder." And of course, "We've got it CSed and ready to go." And I'd be like, "This fucking sucks! It's the wrong fucking item!" And your needle's floating which indicates that it is the wrong item. And you go right back to the motherfuckers for another month.


And meanwhile, I've already bought $100,000 worth of auditing.


And it's more going through this thing. Then it's like talking about some stupid fucking overts to start, because I haven't had a session. "Well, I masturbated." And you're coming up with like -- who the fucking cares? I got nothing! It's not like I'm fucking killing people or beating my children or something. "You know what I do? Oooh, Internet porn. And I don't know. I got mad at work." You got nothing to fucking say! And this is it! And that'll eat the whole cock-sucking thing. It's just fucking unbelievable!

Q. Celebrities are used heavily for recruiting, and they recruit young actors coming to town. I see every weekend in Back Stage West, there's now up to five or six ads for different workshops they do. Are you familiar with this at all?

A. Yeah, I gave one. They got me to do one once. Yeah, people got interested, and they signed up for courses. Yeah, and they use people to do that. I suppose they are targeting actors. That's what I've understood. It's good public relations for them, I suppose. Or if somebody hits big, it's thanks to Scientology. I know a lot of people who do them. And at first they are very reticent to do some of the things, say some of the things they are pressured to do, in other words, say Scientology, and use the ethics conditions all the time in your career, and these kind of things. But then after they've done a couple of them, they even start to believe it.

It's very hard. I mean, these are decent good people. I don't want to say so many alarming things. But how do people get involved in these destructive relationships, just between two people? There's a lot of people who get knocked around and come back. And I doubt the person knocked them around on the first date. It's sad.

And just looking at those celebrities, you sell a little piece of your soul when you tell that lie. But you've got it all justified that, "It's good people; and it's for the Church; and I'm helping the group." And da da da. But I'm telling you, you know that you're full of it a little bit. And you know if you really look at it, it's okay. And in any other universe, if that came up in session, it would be an overt.


But not there. I mean, this whole hard sale thing, and what they do to recruit. Shit. Actors are one thing. What about the little children they get into the Sea organization with billion year contracts?

Q. What's your reaction to the Sea Org and the way that Sea Org members are treated, as opposed to the celebrity clientele? Are you aware of some of the things that happen to Sea Org members?

A. Again, I've heard things. And they seem quite plausible. I've never seen anybody be abused. I've seen people kind of screamed at. But I've never seen that kind of abuse. Let's say you hear my story. And I got out, and I've got some sad tales. Maybe I got ripped off for a good chunk of money, and this, that, and the other thing. If you look at that as compared to somebody who joins the Sea Org, it's not even comparable.

Can you imagine what it would be like to have a person at your beck and call and complete disposal? Your slave who not only was a slave by force, but you've got them by the mind -- not the balls -- you've got them by the mind. So they're in love with you, devoted to you, to do whatever you want for their entire lifetime. So they're working, let's say, a person working 100 hours probably is what the average Sea Org person works per week. I'd say about 80-100 hours a week. What's minimum wage on that? I mean, it's not even minimum wage shit. They build the buildings. They do everything. High tech stuff. It's worth at least $75,000 per year. And then you get that for 50 years, or 40 years, because they get them when they're teenagers. And they've also hired a dentist who takes care of their teeth. They've also hired all these kind of things as part of their organization. What is that? That's just millions and millions of dollars worth of free labor. Plus, their whole life. And what do they get in exchange? They believe that they are saving this sector of the galaxy. And that's enough for them. And they are the few people who have the ethical fortitude to make that kind of a commitment.

Q. What's your reaction to the RPF?

A. Those are the rules of the game. But to me, it is more of a way to control. People end up there if they are -- I would think -- to some degree they feel they are getting out of control. And so what do you do? You put more control over them, until you get them back in control. And whether that's physical abuse or mental abuse or both, it's what it is.

Q. When you were in, did you know the ins and outs of RPF, where families would be split up, and people couldn't communicate for months or even years?

A. No. They don't talk about that much. When I was in a little bit longer, and spent more time at the upper organizations, like Gold, I would hear about things like that, and find out. But they try to keep that stuff away from everybody, especially celebrities. Because the company line is that the Sea Org is made up of OTs. It's a group of OTs. So for these people to fail is saying OTs are failing. And it's kind of like a one shot Clear joining the Sea Organization. And you have the EPF, which is the precursor, where you get ready. And when you're finally posted in the Sea Org, the end phenomena of the EPF, which is called the Estates Project Force, which is basically where you run around and do a lot of physical labor and take a couple of courses, the end phenomena of that is supposed to be an OT.

Which is interesting to me. I've many times blown my stack when I had to get in touch with somebody at Flag. I always had to call the president. And of course, they've got a new person answering the telephone at Flag. And Scientology touts itself as the cutting edge in communication, whereas they have somebody answering the fucking phone who does not speak English. However, they ARE an OT. They happen to be an OT from Poland, who is now 14 years old, and is now the main receptionist for an international fucking hotel.


And you call and say, "What the fuck is wrong with this person?" "Well, they're posted, and they should be there." You've got to get that job done. And if their stats are down, I'm sure they're back on the RPF if they hadn't learned to speak English quick enough. And that's not an exaggeration. Insanity.

Q. So you didn't know that much about what was going on in the RPF?

A. No, I learned some things online, but --

Q. How are you as public kept away from the en theta that's going on in the real world? I mean, if there's some really negative story about Scientology in the paper or on TV, are you aware of that?

A. It's a funny thing. Like I remember my wife had seen Ted Koppel interview David Miscavige. And she thought that he kind of fucked up. He certainly wasn't very OT. And she talked to Susan Watson, who was the president of CC, and Susan was like, it's almost like gaslighting somebody. Do you know that expression? Kind of make them seem like, "Are you crazy? He was just doing a toadscale joke, because you know Ted Koppel." To just "not is" the thing. I think it is called dead agenting. I had a similar experience just seeing Tom Cruise acting a little bit in a way that could distress a lot of people. And they make it into like, "This is the greatest thing. No, this is good. People just can't handle his level of enthusiasm." And it's like, "Okay! So that's the company line."


Q. Even now, with the release of the Tom Cruise tape, and global attention to this, they are trying to spin it as a positive, that all these people are coming to our site, and learning about Scientology, and joining, whereas the rest of the world is saying, "Tom Cruise is nuts."

A. Well, that's the thing, though. In their own little world, it makes sense. That is a Scientologist talking to Scientologists. That's Tom Cruise sitting there -- I've done these kind of videos, being interviewed -- knowing that his audience is going to be made up completely of Scientologists, and his job is to get some fire under their asses so they can jump out and start behaving more like him. And that's basically what it is in their universe. I think that's an unedited tape, but that's basically him. I mean, I've been around the guy. I twinned on him in some courses. When I was getting auditing from Marty Rathbun, we were on turnabout for a month and a half. It was like Tom would go in, and then I would go in, Tom would go in, and I would go in. So I spent a little bit of time with him. And that's him.

You know, he's a very focused guy. That's what I see. I mean, this guy is not a namby pamby panty waste. He's a totally dedicated person. I can't call him a friend, or say I know him, but I can tell you that's who he is. So if it seems crazy, that's interesting. That seems like the ideal to most Scientologists, and that's an interesting comment. Because they showed that as a "Come on, babies. Get off your asses! Don't you want to be like Tom?" And it's interesting that the rest of the world, who are not caught up in that Truman Show -- they see it as "What's wrong with this guy?" It's crazy.

Q. It looks very much to an outsider as though your reality is stripped away and replaced with Scientology's reality.

A. That's what I saw. I watched a little of that Tom Cruise interview, and I'd seen it before then. I went to that event. It was an IS event where he won the Freedom Medal. There's some part in there where he says, "You know, as a Scientologist, you can't pass that accident, because you know you're the only person who can do something about it." And he does know that. And to me, that's part of what I'm finding is destructive in terms of a religion that pulls people apart. Whereas to them it seems like, "No, he's really helping people." So you could say that. But he's also putting himself above it. He's a Homo Novus. He's somewhat condescending. He knows he's going to heaven. And I find that very worrisome.


It really is. I don't think it bodes well for the planetary community when you have people sectifying into these groups that think they are the only way out. It starts to look crazy. I think that's where war comes from.

Q. You mentioned having done some of those videos like Cruise. You've done a lot of Scientology --

A. Let me tell you something. Like the main recruiting film for the Sea Organization, I spent well over a year doing that up at Gold with David Miscavige, and he and I and one other guy on the final day, because we had to finish it for Sea Org Day. So if you ever get recruited to join the Sea Org, that will be me talking. Unless they hear this. Maybe they'll take me off, but "We live in a world gone mad where pain and strife create war and human suffering. A world rife with drugs." Yeah. It starts like that. It's very serious. And it's all about the Sea Organization, and how it was formed, and blah blah blah. So apparently, it's working. That's what I've heard, what they told me. But their stats never go down.

The last thing I did before I left, I don't know what the hell they were calling it, but it was this big public push. They were going to put these videos in every org, so when new public walk in, they can learn what is CCR, what is the volunteer ministers. What is -- I must have done 10 or 12 of these things. And that's my voice, too. Shit.

Then the technology of Scientology is learning how to Clear people, and bring them to higher states of spiritual freedom. And that takes a lot of learning. You have to go to course. And part of the course is technical films where they tell a story -- they're all written by L. Ron Hubbard, and some are even directed by him -- but I'm in, Jesus, shit, plenty of them.

Q. Do they have to purge you now?

A. I don't know if they'll purge me. You know, there was a girl who had left and they kept her. I mean, they re-did the film finally. There are some of them that will take a while to re-do. I mean, they take forever to make a film anyway. Shit, I did a little half hour film for them and it took months.

My experience personally is that Scientology is destructive and a rip-off, and that it's very, very dangerous for your spiritual, psychological, mental, emotional health, and evolution. I think it stunts your evolution.
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Re: How I Got Into Scientology and Why I Got Out: Interview

Postby admin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:58 am

Part 6 of 6


And joining the Sea Org is the greatest commitment to that. And it requires the greatest amount of commitment from that individual. You know, there's a different standard for a new public, for a Scientology public, an OT public, and then above that is a Sea Org member.


And what is required and expected is far beyond. And so the degree to which you have to be completely devoted, and again, in my perception, the more devoted you are, the more brainwashed you are. The less you are yourself, the more you are just a Scientologist. When I said earlier you become "Jason Beghe the Scientologist," "Jason Beghe the Sea Org Member" would be further gone than "Jason Beghe the Scientologist." And I hear about some of these hard core top execs that are now leaving -- these were heavy duty in the Sea Org 25 years who made it to the top -- I would imagine that, to use your word, the decompression for them could be in danger of the bends. I mean, that's some heavy shit to get that far in.

Right now I'm just getting an inkling. Like one of the big, big concepts in Scientology is overts, which is sins you've committed. These are naughty things you've done. These are your peccadillos. These are your big big awful secrets that you would never tell anybody. These are some mistakes you made. They can all add up to overts. I'm beginning to get a concept, and maybe part of the reason why I'm doing this is to try and make up the damage for some of the people I've influenced getting into Scientology, because I feel BAAADDDD!


I feel that was BAAADDDD! That maybe somebody would look to me and say, "Hey, he's cool." Or "He's no fool." Whatever the hell they say. And that makes me feel BAAADDDD! You know that Sea Org slideshow, COB told me that it's gotten a whole bunch of people into Sea Org. It's working like gang busters. So you ask me if I fully really face that without flinching? It would be a tough pill to swallow. I mean, that's some heavy shit. If I really look at that, I mean, that's taking people's lives away.


That's enslaving somebody's mind. And when I was talking about the levels of ethics where somebody doesn't even know they are out of ethics, shit, baby, we're talking about people who don't even know that they're enslaved. That's a hard fucking thing. I mean, they can create their own reality where they will show up when they are 21 next lifetime and come back. That's fucking feasible. I'm talking about brainwashed.

I don't know how far it goes, but it ain't a joke.


And if Scientology is real, then something is fucked up. Because it ain't delivering what it has promised. That's for goddamn sure! It is not! It says it delivers what it promises. Where's the fucking Clear? You're talking about OTs -- let me meet a motherfucking Clear. I would like to meet a motherfucking Clear. I'm "Clear," right? I'm declared Clear as a fucking bell. I went Clear twice as a matter of fact.

So pull out a fucking copy of Dianetics, and let's hear the definition of Clear. And then they change it a little bit more, and say "no longer has his own reactive mind" -- "his own," so they can sell the OT levels.

But what I see, see now it ain't a joke when you're talking about this. This is the bad stuff. I think, from my own experience, and from what I've seen, the further up you go the Bridge, the worse you get. That's what I see. Some people are "happier" --


but who is happy? I submit to you that it's not them anymore. And I know people that are troubled to death. They just finished OT8 and they have migraines. Migraines!? A fucking Clear doesn't have migraines! This is an OT8 for God's sake! Migraines? "Migraines is an engram that you can handle in Clear."

I mean, come on! And they're still fucking gung ho, and OT ambassadors, and all this shit, and running around trying to do the job of the OT8s who are really the powerhouses. And so they believe that. And so they're "happy" because they're fucking doing something to save the planet. And they're running around doing this stuff, but it's just like that theta trap. It's just one guy stuck in a theta trap and he's unhappy, and another guy's stuck in it and he's "happy."


Because he's convinced himself. And he's just "Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!"


I mean, it's awful. What's worse? I'd rather be depressed than that. Oy yo yoy. It's sad.

Q. So what would you say to people who are still in?

A. If somebody's still in, listen, you've got to make your own move.


It's like this. Hopefully this will communicate. Like I said before, I used to smoke. I have my little son, and I never smoked in front of my son. But kids are smart. And he'd find a cigarette and he'd be going like this --


And he couldn't even walk, and he'd be going like this [lighting a cigarette]. And I said, "I've gotta fucking quit! You know, and I couldn't quit. I'd tried to quit a bunch of times. I found this thing called "The Easy Way to Stop Smoking," and it worked for me. And it was easy. It was very easy. Part of the whole smoking thing -- according to this thing that worked for me -- is that it's not as bad as you think it is.


So for somebody who is in, as far gone as I say you are going up, the difference between waking up and being asleep is the difference between waking up and being asleep.


And it's like sometimes, when you're asleep, you can still hear the shit that's going on around you because you're only half asleep.


YOU'RE NOT THAT FUCKING BRAINWASHED! So I'm here to tell you. This is what I say. WAKE UP! And you can hear it.


There was actually a little process that LRH ran -- some processes are good -- and he used to run it and say, "Sometimes you can actually cure people of insanity," which is what we're talking about. And the command is, in Tone 40 -- which means with no possibility of the communication not arriving and making the effect intended -- saying to the insane person, who is "Waa waa waa" -- I'm talking about a fucking David Berkowitz -- "COME UP TO PRESENT TIME, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT THERE. AND GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE THERE. SO COME ON!




That's what I would say to that person. "THERE YOU ARE!








And it's a no-brainer. So it's not that hard. It really isn't. You know me, I got out, it was a slow process, but I know most of it.




Besides the fact that all these fucking claims, how about a little fucking evidence? I'm not talking about prove to me there's God.


I mean, it's just some pretty fucking sweeping things like, "Well, you know, you have to take responsibility for salvaging beings." Like this whole Xenu thing is insane. People believe it. Why? Because LRH said it. Just like I was talking about the psyches. There's no fucking evidence. It's just chatter about nothing. There's no fucking evidence. And they call it "Scientology" -- like it's got some fucking hypothesis and some "if then" and "here's the proof," and "this is this."

And that's the other fucking thing I realize in listening to all the congresses. This motherfucker! Listen, if you're doing something Scientology, some science, you gotta have a bunch of fucking people to test the fucking thing. What did he do it on? Three of his fucking friends? "That's it! You're clear now!


Okay! Let's have a congress, because it worked!"


You change the wording from "Come up to present time," to "COME up to present time."


And that's a congress! And it worked on Joe! "Joe, yeah, go try that." I mean, it's insane. I think he believed it some of the time.

Q. What would you say to current management?

A. Well I don't get it. I don't get it. The lower level people that I know in the Sea Org, like Dave Petit, I can talk to Dave right now. "DAVE, YOU KNOW! YOU GOTTA JUSTIFY. YOU FUCKING KNOW. I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW.



I would imagine these people get so justified. And when you get into a group, I would imagine they have their own little group. And in my opinion, just to use more of that nomenclature from Scientology, another way to say it is the further up the Bridge you get, and the further up the Sea Org you get, the more PTS you get. And you think PTS is "I'm feeling shitty," or "I've got a cold," or "I broke my leg." You think that's what it is. That's a level of PTSness where at least you're aware something's wrong. When you're sitting there and you're so "PTS" --


that you think you're saving this sector of the galaxy, I mean, what can you say? Either hopefully, for your own sake, you're just a plain old SP and you want money and power. If you actually believe that shit, because remember, you can wake up just like that. If you really believe that, then you're so far gone. I mean, that's gone! That's gone! And I don't believe anybody's that gone. It's like a guy who has a $500 a day habit. You know, he started with one toke, or whatever the fuck it is.

You start eating more and more of this shit to the point where you believe -- because I know if you're that far up in the exec management level you've committed so many fucking "overts" and justified so many evil fucking deeds --



That's why I'm so happy Mike Rinder got out. And he was the worst piece of PR you guys had. Because I would look at that guy and you could just tell that guy was bad.


He had done a lot of bad things. I just saw it! You could tell. I mean, they put him on to defend people in Scientology? You put the Dalai Lama on, and you look at him, and you say, "There's a sweet guy. I don't know what Buddhism is, but you can tell that's good." Deepak Chopra -- okay, he wants a couple of bucks, he's trying to help people. But this is a guy who's like dark.


He is what you would cast as a villain in some cheap fucking B movie. What, are you crazy? Did you believe it? I'm sorry, I hope he's out, that's great. But that's what I saw.




So, whatever, you know.

But listen, the bottom line is, there's some beautiful fucking people in there, public and Sea Org people. Great, great, great people. You'd be lucky to have a friend like that. But that's the shame of it. Maybe I've gone too far, because I do not want to hurt somebody's feelings. I don't want to shake somebody's universe. Like right now I'm feeling a little "Uhhh."


There's the unsugar-coated version. But it's got a little English on it. And my intention is not to put English on any of this. I mean, I talk in a way that's full of English, but I don't have an agenda, I don't think. Like most people, I guess I want to help. And I suppose that's why I got into Scientology. That IS why, because I wanted to help. And right now I'm trying to help.


And I know that the Scientologists are trying to help. They're just trying to help. I think that's what most people are trying to do, they're just trying to help.


I don't want to be a terrorist about it, and shake anybody up, and upset anybody.


I have the luxury of having gotten into Scientology, and after having been in it, been out. And that's a perspective that those people who are in and who are not out do not have.


Mr. Justice Latey Judgment, Royal Courts of Justice, July, 1984

No recruit or Scientologist can have these services without paying for them. There is no tempering of the wind to a shorn lamb. Scientology claimed recently that they would "clear the planet" within five years. Herein is a paradox. How can they clear all pre-clears when the majority cannot possibly hope to pay? But, I suppose, it is swallowed by the adherents just as everything else is. Their reasoning powers have been blocked out.
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