Part 3 of 10
level 3
lingua42
26 days ago
That makes a lot of sense to me, and I really appreciate your frank sharing your perspective on this and all the rest.
I'm personally quite fortunate in that, while I've passed through some circles I'd call Shambhala-adjacent, my teachers and communities have all been with other, much more ethical and transparent people. Closer to home has been the stories coming out about abuse by Lama Norlha at KTC, though I didn't know him personally.
So yes, I've read a book or two by Ani Pema, but she was never particularly central to my practice life. But it's concerning that saying unpleasant things about her could be really disruptive to some people's practice. I wonder if famous people like her are too often not seen as ordinary people because they're just too famous. We learn more from the teachers and mentors we actually get to know, and since we see them as human beings, I hope our faith won't be as affected if anything should go wrong.
level 3
mycatnameddog
15 days ago
As her granddaughter who loves her very much I wholeheartedly agree with you.
level 4
allthewholeworld
14 days ago
yes, she is worth that love, just like you are mycatnameddog. thank you for the posts you have given on reddit about this. I have read them and learned a lot from your willingness to speak about things so close to your heart.
level 5
mycatnameddog
14 days ago
Thank you. I really, really respect what you’re doing here. I’m sorry for the garbage you’ve endured.
level 1
Horsetravelor
25 days ago
to allthewholeworld, deepest thanks and gratitude. I came to a big city Dharmadhatu in 1978, a very long time ago. I gained a lot and was deeply involved in every aspect of my life in integrating my Buddhist practice. I believe everything you say because I saw it in those first ten years. I was a humble and devout practitioner, spending sometimes 4 hours a day in my practice and others did as well at the center I belonged to. I went to Dhatun, Seminary with Chogyam Trungpa, many solitary retreats etc. As did most of the people at that Center. But
after the Regent's behavior I had to leave. Moved far away into the mountains. Heartbroken. Very sad. Still kept up my meditation practice. Read. tried to practice at a small Shambhala Center with good people. But I felt that the higher ups were corrupt. So much charisma with darkness beneath. I had seen too much. Now the pieces are coming together. Thank you so much for what you've shared. I can stop blaming myself for not being a better community member -- when in fact all I really ever wanted was to practice meditation, and go deeper on my spiritual path. Believe me I know how easy it is to get sucked into the vortex and then not be able to see or think clearly. I was lucky that I was doing therapy with a fine woman Jungian therapist, and I also went to 12 step programs, and then later I spent a lot of time in the mountains, in nature, and riding my horses out to think alone.. These things I think saved me from going down. I'm grateful. But most grateful for your exposure of all this..... thank you.
level 2
tashi8888
25 days ago
Thank you for speaking up, Horsetravelor -- you are not alone. When narayana was appointed regent, I stepped back. Had seen his 'ordinariness' at Tail and sensed something was amiss. There are many fine VJ teachers and practitioners all over the globe -- quite a few horses get it as well. IMAO you made the right choice. Stay safe, travel well.
level 2
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
and thank you for sharing this. you have quite a story to share. if you want to use this platform to speak up anonymously, please do. it really helps, and it will make you strong.
level 2
EdmundButler
24 days ago
That's a very sad, beautiful trajectory, Horsetraveler. Nothing wrong with Thinking Like a Mountain, at all! This is a very confusing time for many of us associated with this crowd just now so voices like yours are really helpful for perspective. Best wishes to you...
level 1
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
details #4
[from 2015ish]
I was invited to develop a program of meditation at an enormous health club, one with more members than all of Shambhala. I collaborate with a popular, well respected, not-in-shambhala teacher who looked forward to developing a "non-religious" program to the public that referenced the latest neuroscience. This had nothing whatsoever to do with Shambhala, it was an outside invitation.
We went through several meetings, got outside advice, and then set a date to begin our work. This could have provided livelihood for this teacher, and for me.
During this time, I was called to the kalapa court. At the court, Mipham grabbed my arm and walked with me around his yard, praising my activities (which he surely didn’t even know).
I mentioned that I was excited by an opportunity to develop a program that would give me a chance to do something good with meditation. He looked at me and raised an eyebrow and cocked his head, as in “tell me the details”. So I did.
He paused, and started to nod his head a little and then looked right at me and said, “The thing is, what’s my cut?” I laughed out loud, I didn’t take it seriously. But he got serious. “You are using my tech. I am tired of people using my tech and taking all the money. I need a cut.” Then he arranged for his secretary to meet with me to discuss the cut.
I did not agree to give him a cut, and wondered how that would unfold. But the project fell through, so I’ll never know.
I did not learn how to meditate from him. My “tech” at the time was a mixture of Yongey Mingyur and Khenpo Tsultrim, and the traditional materials from the sutras. His claim on my knowledge showed me early signs of his delusions of grandeur, thinking he had invented the dharma. This is around the time he really started fleecing the flock.level 2
CheredeDarievea
17 days ago
I haven't been keeping up with the Reddit discussion; thanks for posting these little character studies. The Mipham you describe is not the man I remember, but I have to keep in mind how I was seeing him through the eyes of wanting him to be more than he was.
Amazing to hear he thought of his own bafflegab as
"tech". Perhaps he sees himself as a startup whizkid, too? Lol. Such hubris.
And now he DONE RUNOFF to India... The next few days will be an important trial for the cognitive dissonance of the Believers. Thanks dude, keep it up.
level 2
metal-tiger
12 days ago
again ATWW, so very glad you have spoken out in this platform.
level 2
BaronAsh
17 days ago
Stunned -- truly -- at how underwhelming these stories are.
So will continue to await investigation results before forming an opinion as regards possible criminality.
level 3
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
yeah, i keep it pretty tame to some, and to others this is confirming a bigger picture and is horrible.
it is not meaningful to you because you have so little direct knowledge of the situation (as you have more than generously acknowledged). I am not posting for the benefit of people like you although i welcome your presence. I am doing something different than you understand me to be doing.
level 4
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
Ash: don't hear this the wrong way, but nobody gives a hoot about your conclusions in this matter. you are not part of the conversation, you are a bystander with opinions. you have no skin in this game — at least the one I am speaking to.
level 4
BaronAsh
17 days ago
Fair enough. I think we all have to be careful of making accusations of criminality without respect for normal due process. But there are many things which do not rise to the level of being crimes that are very serious, of course, though how to determine such things is also fraught with peril.
Some have said it is because of fear of being sued. No doubt that plays a part. But also
it is actually very hard to accuse anyone of anything. Ultimately, all such things end up being some sort of he-said-she-said.
In any case, I don't think nearly enough is out there yet to dissuade most hard-core loyalists to shift their view. Well, we'll see. It ain't over yet....
Is it for sure SMR went to India and/or Orissa? Any notion of for how long?
level 5
allthewholeworld
16 days ago
yes, and I think hard-core loyalists have the right to their views, it is no one else's business but theirs. it is the conduct, the behavior, that needs to shift. I am sure most loyalists are nonagressive to begin with and are practitioners on top of that.
many people have come forward on fb giving confirmation of his departure to india, so yes, i think it happened.
level 4
BaronAsh
16 days ago
I am doing something different than you understand me to be doing.
So I'll try to define and you can correct where wrong:
It is ATTW's mission here to persuade SMR students that their teacher is unworthy of ever being a spiritual teacher of any sort and anyone involved should immediately up and leave the Shambhala Community and Path because the entire thing is altogether too corrupt. Rather, if they want to continue some sort of spiritual path, they should get into more traditional Buddhadharma lineages.
How's that?
level 1
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
Final post of today from me, the OP.
I am tired, it is waaaay past my bedtime. I have a lot on my plate this week, but I feel the timeliness of this so I will stay in the conversation this week at least. Originally I planned to do this for just today. Didn't know that it would get such a heartfelt response.
For now, while supplies last, I commit to responding to genuine comments (and they have all been so genuine today, I appreciate you) one by one. I will need a few days at the rate things are flooding in, but this is very important I think. If it gets beyond what I can handle, I don't know what I will do. I got a family!
Basically, I will listen and help as I can, while supplies last!
I said a lot today that was frank and wrathful. I will also be saying things that are appreciative, but in my own way. And just know that I may change my opinion, or take back my words if it seems right to do so. I said a lot about the acharyas because, well, why is no one calling them out? To say what I said will surely stimulate pressure on them to speak. And they will see this. they will chatter their teeth together and ask yet again, is this person telling the truth? is this what my life has become? and then they will read the rest, and they will -- some of them -- start to cry. and when that happens and the first one speaks, thousands of people, not dozens, will begin to heal.
That acharya will be a real hero, and I already forgive them in advance for all the complicity (?) they demonstrated during their tenure. Now they will have spoken up, spoken out. Who will be the first hero? Who do you all think will be the first acharya of shambhala to say a non scripted, critical thinking, independent thing in line with the larger perception of Shambhala and the Mukpos growing in the media every day?
I am not trying to make anyone the enemy, but many powermongery people have been causing harm and sometimes you gotta risk upsetting some people in order to cut through the cult messaging and slow aggressors down. At least I think you do. Don't mean to harm, just to slow or stop the harm.
Goodnight everyone. I will be friendly, to you, especially if you are in this mess, too. Please speak up if I seem not to be, but do give me a chance, like you already have.
goodnight, allthewholeworld
level 2
cedaro0o
26 days ago
He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King Jr.Thank you. Looking forward to less passivity and more protesting from future others inspired by yourself and other survivors.
level 2
barleyfat
26 days ago
Thank you so much for posting all of this. You have walked a fine line by reporting craziness worse than we suspected without straying into bitter rancor.
level 2
tashi8888
25 days ago
edited 25 days ago
Thank you allthewholeworld u hav opened the gate -- touch my head to your feet.level 3
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
tashi I am happy for you.
level 4
tashi8888
24 days ago
edited 24 days ago
we need to clarify the real story for sincere Shambalians caught up in the con -- the truth is available -- old dogs and western students with Asian experience can set record straight -- no fear -- have you given thought to setting up a tech rally point for publication (any/all media)? This has been a very good start.
level 5
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
what does that even mean? tech/rally point? yes the story must be available, not all souls are lost
level 6
tashi8888
24 days ago
last century we would have gathered stories together and hard copy published as rick fields did -- today not necessary -- can self-publish stories on medium or another platform with integrity -- the response to you and your authenticity speaks for itself -- deferring to you and encouraging you to make it happen...
level 7
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
encouragement like this comment hits me right in my heart. I have been a coward for so long, didn't even know I COULD speak. but you telling me that really moves me and encourages me. it means a lot
level 8
tashi8888
24 days ago
100% with you -- got your back -- have been quite shocked over the last year to discover what's been going on with vj in the west -- first tsogyal then norlha then sham and know there are many many others -- very glad for met and times up and current spotlight on 'buddhist' perverted cons -- very powerful and POSITIVE changes now happening -- speak from year one or two from my side -- will tell you all when we connect.
level 1
imperatorprime
25 days ago
I'm just wondering something. I've been attending my local Shambhala center for ~12 years or so. I've donated $5 - $20 a couple times a year hoping that it would go to upkeep of our center,
I've taken a few of the weekend levels over 12 years I've sat in the timer's seat semi-regularly, and hoped to one day get to where I could offer 'authorized' instruction to others, because I've found meditation beneficial. I like the company of the other people who sit at our Wednesday open houses and I've liked engaging with the center's teachers, who when the scandals really started breaking hard in the last year or so seemed genuinely shocked and appalled, like I was when I started hearing about the abuse and exploitation. I've never taken it so seriously as to get really invested in hierarchies or politics, never felt bound by loyalty to Mipham or any of the others (though I've appreciate their books), and
as I see it the whole top of the organization should be deposed. The same clearly goes for many of the others at my center.
Do you think it's possible to reconcile the disparate worlds of the grassroots membership, where we just want a place to sit and learn from each other, and the rot at the head? Do the centers need to be shuttered or is the organization something that can be adapted to survive with a more democratic government?level 2
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't.
I am so disappointed in the leadership, and that is barely saying it, that I can't see them capable of doing anything wise or responsive to the needs of modern people in a modern world facing today. I think people should start meditation co-ops if they don't want a hierarchy. Shambhala does not have a track record of success in anything, so I don't know what they are going to do to turn that around.level 3
BaronAsh
24 days ago
To me the issue there is about transmission. If I had my druthers, I would teach stroke to secular types right off the bat, before sitting. Met many like that.
I also taught it to my 4 yr old son who took to it like a duck to water. I guess that's all illegal, but what's the legality of stroke transmission anyway?Stroke practice is a contemplative calligraphy discipline for graduates of Warrior Assembly and other authorized practitioners. It involves cutting through self-concept by executing the "stroke of Ashe", which represents unconditional confidence.
-- Ashe Society - Stroke Practice, by Shambhala.org
More importantly,
if you want to go off on your own and start teaching etc., or if you simply find yourself in a place where you're the only one and want to get something going, what are the parameters? Because of the tendency to hold on tightly to and fixate on the higher/inner/secret levels (like the cabin at Kalapa Valley for the dark retreat and the closed gate to the property which is otherwise undeveloped and of no benefit to the struggling local community whose mayor lives 150 yards away across the 'sacred river Ingonish'), we have little idea of lineage and path beyond dealing with these high-falutin' super-duper tulku-type throne holders.
I believe that we in Shambhala should be able to do better than 'my way or the highway.' In other words, either you stick with the official program or you go into exile and are not permitted to teach most of what you learned without being an oath-breaker. This is a very important issue, or 'rub,' as in 'aye, there's the rub!'
I think it's almost criminal how many thousands (literally) of dedicated, good-hearted students have ended up in this sort of exile. It's okay to leave Mama Sangha at some point, but
it should also be okay to go off spreading wild dharma oats as one sees fit, including sharing what we've learned. In a strange way, I think this constipation at the top in terms of encouraging more spontaneous, free-form, non-institutional dharma practice, study and teaching has almost intensified a bottled-up need to explode the whole thing, in which case the diseased behaviors being uncovered are acting as some sort of protector principle to ensure the whole thing isn't suffocated in overly protective super-sacred super-secret BS, which has been ongoing, imo, for most of the last 20 years, but whose roots go back to a messy transition following CTR's death and VROT's painful, and administratively even more dysfunctional and damaging, exit.
level 2
TharpaLodro
25 days ago
Do the centers need to be shuttered or is the organization something that can be adapted
I'd like to ask a follow up: is there a third path, that of the teachings being liberated from the present organisation? Per its own claims, the "Shambhala dharma" is a universal heritage that doesn't belong to anyone...
level 3
markszpak
25 days ago
CTR saw the story of the mythical kingdom of Shambhala as an inspiration toward building an enlightened, or at least more sane!, society. He had often talked about "buddhadharma without credentials": and then, to the chagrin and puzzlement of many of his students, actually tried walking that talk in experimenting (and yes, he did consider it an experiment, that might or might not work) with what forms that might take. So you did not have to be a buddhist to be a full citizen of Shambhala society, but could come to it with whatever practice tradition was authentic and real to you. This is what our diverse, multi-cultural global society needs.
Many of the problems that have arisen with the Shambhala Buddhism (which essentially is a buddhist sect with Shambhala vocabulary and branding) created by SMR, especially those having to do with conflating buddhist samayas and guru-ship with secular leadership, have arisen from mashing these two distinct (but of course related, including historically) ways.
So re that third path: yes!
level 4
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
boy, i remember that original vision. it just vanished after 2000 Kalapa Assembly.
the third step is the only way that makes sense to me. gotta take it on yourself and take the risk of keeping it real and not becoming a charlatan. if you don't do it, some charlatan will. If you love the teachings, you can keep them alive. trust yourselflevel 2
DismalPerformance
14 days ago
The reality of the situation is that if you want a communal place to sit besides a friends house, you need to rent space. Nowadays, that cost a lot of money for rent and at the least volutes are needed to keep it going. Therefore you need a organization that magnetizes funds. That's life in the material world.
level 2
SunnyClouds5
25 days ago
I haven’t read through all the thread yet today, but please go on Chronicles of Chogyam Trungpa and check out Ocean. Teachers trained in meditation instruction and dharma teaching are offering classes and an online shrine room. I’m an old practitioner from CTRs sangha and I see nothing cultish going on at Ocean. It’s about the teachings, which is the point, isn’t it?
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
yes, if you want teachings, it is important that those are prioritized over group membership. I don't want to opine on Ocean, but if you feel it is serving your needs, and you feel safe or even better, supported, then you should try it out and tell others of your experience, if you wouldn't mind. If it is a good thing, it will get a response and survive.
level 1
TsoDewa
22 days ago
edited 22 days ago
How can we best help and support the survivors?level 2
waterbuffalo777
21 days ago
Listen to them. Don't try to comfort them with Buddhist platitudes or contextualize their abuse as a teaching or karma. Challenge those who unquestioningly defend abusive teachers. Sign petitions, contact lawmakers, withdraw financial support from teachers and organizations that commit and enable abuse.level 2
keikobear
22 days ago
Is there a fund set up where we can donate to them?
level 3
cedaro0o
22 days ago
Of course. It must be front and center on Shambhala's main web page and on all local center's web pages. It's the simplest thing a compassionate caring transparent organization would do.
Image what a terrible indictment it would be were it not the case.
level 4
EdmundButler
22 days ago
It is of course a terrible indictment that it is neither the case nor the inclination of the Administrators.
In my 2015 Care & Conduct Complaint I submitted that $10,000 compensation was due to me as a result of illegal dismissal and forced relocation out of the Province of Nova Scotia due to my (internally uninvestigated) attempted murder at Dorje Denma Ling in 2014. The response I got from David Brown in reviewing my Appeal of the Panel's formal Findings in the case, was that Lennart Krogoll said that I had resigned my position and that I was therefore not due any compensation. Brown knew I objected to this assessment, if only because he refused to provide evidence of my resignation and declined to comment on the fact that Krogoll was lying out of self-interest. Clearly had Brown found that Krogoll had overseen my illegal dismissal (which I assert to be the case, on account of his sense of self-preservation for his position as Director of Dorje Denma Ling), Krogoll would have been liable.
So Brown refused my compensation claim, avoiding the issue of the whitewash investigation conducted by Torgny Vigerstad of Halifax and fired Krogoll while writing a glowing review of his, "... devoted service to the Sakyongs as Director of Dorje Denma Ling for three years", on his "...resignation". That's right: he was privately fired (in large part because of how he mishandled my attempted murder by his friend Jeremy Blackburn) and then publicly exalted on his fake resignation. Blackburn, incidentally was banned from ever entering Dorje Denma Ling again, unbeknownst to me. Brown also asked me to clarify, simultaneously, why on earth I felt unsafe at Dorje Denma Ling.
So no,
I think compensation for survivors is the furthest thing from their minds. It seems clear that even acknowledging survivors is impossible for these reprobates.https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.comlevel 2
allthewholeworld
22 days ago
thank you TsoDewa, please build as much interest in this question as you can!
level 1
Metropolion
7 days ago
Hi Allthewholeworld and everybody!
I'm writing to you from the Southern Hemisphere. Thank you for all the work done and the healing process you've put in motion with your bodhisattva attitude and clear sensitivity.
I'm writing now with answers on the detail of what happened in Chile 2002.I've been a Shambhala practitioner since 93. I've been director, director of practice and education several times, teacher, MI, Ngöndro Instructor and all the other possible roles up to SS. So I know everybody there for a very long time. I have to say that I'm happy to feel that writing to you I'm among like minded and good heart human beings that have woken up from this sticky dream. The dream or aspiration of having a healthy good place on Earth where decency abides and makes all life flourish. But that's not the case of Shambhala and the Sakyong and of course in the Shambhala center in Santiago Chile.
I'm deeply sad, hurt and troubled on the way the "incident" in Chile has been silenced and covered up all these years. And of course I'm part of it, since as director I'm complicit in following the party line on that regards. I'm deeply ashamed for having done so and having faded out my critical intelligence.As you may be aware of, every time we had teachers they really loooved the country, they used to say that everybody wanted to come teach here since it was so cool and pleasant. But if you looked at it deeply here, it was a place where that culture of abuse flourished without obstruction.
All criticism was silenced, avoided, neglected and of course punished, with the smiley and soft Shambhala way of course, that was both brutal and cold and ad hominem. If you were not in total agreement with the right ones, one should forget about belonging to a sane "enlightened community", it becomes the best amplified version of the worse of any dysfunctional human group. The Catholic church scandals and Shambhala are twins in the way they deal with what they have created
So that's the environment, let's introduce you to the main players of the sexual assault that happened here.
The Sakyong have come invited by the actual Director Veronica Guzman, an old practitioner and also the promoters of the culture of abuse in Chile. Public talks were given with great success. The farewell dinner was held at the department where the Sakyong and his entourage was staying. That department belonged to a sangha member.
But if you want names about who was there, please ask Acharya Magaly Meneses. She was the Sakyong's translator in Chile and she was there. She was at the meeting where the sexual assault occurred (it wasn't rape since it was no penetration, if you want to have a technical clarity on it). Along with her was the actual Shastri Jaime Sepulveda and Francesca Nilo. All of them knew it all, so it's unbelievable when Meneses says publicly here in Chile that sexual abuse is something that happens in the North only, that she's talked to the victim and all is clear with no bad feelings from her side. Speaking like that is a crime, she only wants to keep her position and avoid any possible legal action against her. The same with the rest. Jaime Sepulveda was there too exchanging a row of drinks with the Sakyong. But of course he hasn't said a word in all these years and he keeps his position remaining in a convenient silence, the same with Francesca Nilo. All off them have been trying to brush things under the carpet, clenching their theets in order to pass the perfect storm that threatens to end their unchallenged positions. They want to remain alive in their positions for a better future. But things have been falling down little by little without stopping.
And don't forget Veronica Guzman, the director at the time of the sexual assault happened and actual executive director of a mindfulness institute in Santiago (http://www.mindfulness.cl). She made all the possible efforts to silence the whole situation, she's the first complicit. She created the standard that was followed later on this regard. And Julia Sagebien....oh please! She had her sexual predatory tours while in Chile. She is part of this culture because she wanted to behave like CT but her problem was that she doesn't like Mipham. That's why she was ostracized after all this. And now she speaks out loud against it! Why she didn't tell earlier? I do remember her garcon-like chauvinistic predatory behaviour here. To see her speaking as if something happens without her knowing is an insult to basic human intelligence.
These are the main actors, the players on what happened here in Chile in 2002. All of them know it all all the time. And they are part of the culture of abuse here in Chile. Their abusive actions continued later on regarding the Acharya and Shastris, they are the big part of the cultural problem Shambhala has. Here in Chile they are simply unwilling to see their long string of power and clerical abuses they have made here and to simply ask themselves if they have played a role in this catastrophe. Why? because Magaly Meneses became a close friend to the Sakyong after his visit in 2002 where she was her confident and translator. So whoever was protected by her had the protection of Shambhala International granted.level 2
sadderbutwisernow
4 days ago
Much gratitude to you for sharing this story. The more stories that become public, the more we both redress the past wrongs and create safety for survivors to tell their truth, and -- very important to me -- ensure that anyone who is new to Shambhala or newly becoming a member have transparent access to the complete history and viewpoints concerning the past and present operations, leadership, and behavior they are becoming part of.
Many ex-members (and some members) are pressing for a full release of the (Wickwire Holm) stories (the ones that weren't investigated), the Olive Branch submissions, and the contract wording under which WH did their work. As far as I know, the Shambhala community paid for these services, and the community has a right to see the full information. Metropolion, if you know of others who would be willing to anonymously post here, that would help the cause of transparency and protect future generations of meditators. Not putting a burden on you, just by posting here you have offered so much helpful information.
level 3
Metropolion
3 days ago
I'll do so Sadderbutwisernow! and that's my aspiration too, to offer a history that could be talked about and not forgotten. Long term history is made by footnotes only.
This account doesn't have all the clerical and power abuses this leadership did in all these years. Where do you think it'd be good to post these documents?
level 4
sadderbutwisernow
2 days ago
I think if you post here, the accounts and docs will be found, if you prefer to remain anonymous.
level 2
Cashoobutter
4 days ago
Thank you Metropolion.
there are so many snakes hungry for power -- thank you for this enlightening account.
level 2
CachitadelBoddhi [Julia Sagebien]
3 days ago
Buenos dias Metropolion. Greetings from the Caribbean. I read your post about events in the Chilean sangha. It inspired me to write to you to suggest that you and I open up the discussion about some of the themes you explore in you post.
Three points are particularly important for me to clarify:
You bring up a very important question: why is there no further investigation on SMR's inappropriate behaviour towards 'Andrea'. You seem to imply that -- because the incident has not been mentioned since the Sunshine Report where the details of the incident were described by Ms. Merchasin, and
I posted my addendum to that report published in Shambhala Facebook -- there must be some sort of cover up. However, the reality is quite different. Andrea herself felt that, as far as far as she was concerned, the issue had been laid to rest.
I suggest that you write to Carol Marchasin directly and review the process that involved several conversations between her, Andrea, and me as a 'corroborating witness.' I also suggest you read the Facebook posting with my recollections of the Chile incident.2) You allege that my distancing myself from Shambhala is the result of the fact that I don’t like the Sakyong. Have you ever spoken to me directly or is this an impression you got from conversation you have had with many others who have not spoken to me either? Despite all the rebuff that I have experienced from SMR and from the administration for my public resistance to a path I simply no longer recognized -- I actually, love the man. I recognize all his limitations and confusions, but he is part of my ‘family’. Nevertheless, I have serious differences with him regarding the self-serving elimination of the Kagyu and Nyingma Lineages (other live teachers who hold transmission and are accomplished) from our sangha's spiritual command.
3) As per my alleged 'sexually predatory trips' -- I would like you to provide specific evidence of your claims. As an educator in academic settings and as an educator in dharma -- I consider my students absolutely off limits. I have very close women friends in Chile -– but that is all they were –- very close friends. Once during a seminary at SMC, I had a relationship with a member of the Iberoamerican sangha. I immediately recused myself as her MI and the relationship was conducted between two rather mature consenting adults. Yes -- power differentials are implied in this relationship -- but how are we even going to date across power strata? I am not sure a total ban is most productive approach. I suggest you ask those who you think I preyed upon and provide evidence that there was indeed such an abuse of authority and abrogation of duty on my part. Stylistically -- yup -- you got me. I am flamboyant, extroverted, loving and do have a certain le garcon style. That is simply who I am -- in Chile, in Havana, in Canada and everywhere else. Perhaps you are reading too much into a style? If you find this style offensive, I apologize for any unintended disturbance I may have caused you. But, in return, I request that you consider that perhaps you have a deep prejudice towards people of my style of personality and are projecting all sorts of malfeasance when there is none. Worth contemplating.
Metropolion -- we definitely need to have to our collective inappropriate behaviour outed. But making the kinds of unfounded allegations you itemized in your post -- only confuses the matter because finding the truth becomes simply a matter of 'I said -- you said' instead of a constructive collective understanding of the real dynamics that need to be changed. Please, consult with Attorney Merchasin, Andrea, and those you think I sexually preyed upon. Let me us know what you find.
In addition, should you want to enter a private conversation with me, I am also open to that. Perhaps together we can address the real harm and leave the spurious allegations of harm aside. We have enough serious and real harm to worry about.
Thank you for reading to you and all on this thread.
JS
level 2
barleyfat
3 hours ago
I encourage you to move this to a first level post. Not many people will see it here on a two week old thread. Until yesterday most of this sub was "maybe something happened in Chile, maybe not" Add this to the Kusang account with the increased visibility of a fresh thread.
level 1
barleyfat
26 days ago
Does the Sakyong have anyone in his life like a mentor or peer? The Zen teachers have an informal network that can offer peer review, I like to think the Kagyus do too although they might be more competitive about students and book sales. Does SMR stay in touch with anyone from the days he trained with Dilgo? As he has moved Shambhala away from Buddhism and to just Shambhala has he put himself on an island? Is there anyone? maybe his father in law?
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
god i love this question! this is the sort of question that is never asked in shambahala.
NO. the sakyong only answers to beings who appear to him in visions. He is the king of the dharma on earth, and has no peers.
Mipham has no friends, and is competitive with absolutely everyone, especially other tulkus. To my knowledge there is not a single tulku in the Tibetan system that sees him as legitimate. he is a charlatan, but he sits at the helm of Trungpa's legacy and so they are intimidated because they are tibetans. They don't have much cultural encouragement to thing for themselves and speak out. Only Mingyur and HHDL have been willing to do so. And Dzongsar has said many deeply snarky (but I admit, accurate) things about the downfall of Shambhala under Mipham.
He is not on the best terms with his father-in-law [His Eminence Namkha Drimed Rinpoche], who has his own questionable reputation to deal with.
To repeat: mipham does not have peers, none AT ALL. No one to work through his stuff with. It is sycophants only. No other Tibetans. And: he doesn't practice meditation. He views all the tulkus who were around Dilgo Khyentse as his arch enemies. Especially Ponlop Rinpoche and Dzongsar Khyentse. They do not seem to view him with the same level of antagonism, but I don't know them like I know Mipham. I did get the feeling that he has a careful respect of Mingyur and Tsoknyi, but I can't be sure. Those two are 100% unafraid of him, or of nearly anyone. They speak out as they feel inspired. As does Dzongsar, but he really seems to be in the midst of a similar downfall, sadly.thanks for asking this question
level 3
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
And: he doesn't practice meditation
I only spent about a month doing court service but I never saw anything that indicated he was practicing while I was there. It was something I wondered about. Glad to have this suspicion confirmed.
He did work out a lot.level 4
buddhadao
8 days ago
so to be accurate you didn't see him practice meditation in the 1 month you were there, which is quite different than saying he doesn't practice meditation. you don't really know, and why would you know as it is a private, silent practice.level 5
Arupajhana7
7 days ago
I never said I had direct knowledge. ATWW said he had direct knowledge that SMR never practiced. I said I had strong suspicions that he never practiced the whole time I was there and that what ATWW said validated my suspicions.
We knew everything else he was up to. "He is going for a run". "He is working out in his gym". "He is leaving to teach". "He is having dinner now". "He is having X for dinner." "He is going to bed now".
His Kusung knew his daily activities and schedule down to some specific details.
If he was practicing, I believe it would have been a really popular topic. Everyone was filled with this idea that everything he did was blessed and auspicious. If he were sitting at that moment I imagine people would have talked about it and encouraged us to "feel" him in that moment.
He had an ornate meditation hall behind the mansion that I know he didn't use the whole time I was there.level 2
SunnyClouds5
25 days ago
I want to add that it is strong tradition in Tibetan Buddhism that teachers oversee each other and interact as colleagues. This is essential to keeping the teachings pure. That’s why it has always felt wrong to me that Mipham shut out any other teachers and feedback.
FALSE
In Woodstock, New York, I escorted Rinpoche to a meeting with about seven other Tibetan lamas. I was seated on a meditation cushion next to Rinpoche's chair. Everyone was speaking in Tibetan. After about an hour Rinpoche looked down at me and said, "Do you know what they are saying?"
"No, Sir," I answered. "You know I don't understand Tibetan."
"Well," Rinpoche explained in English, loudly and distinctly, "they are saying they don't want to give the real teachings to their Western students because then the students will take over."
There was complete silence in the room. I looked around, not meeting any eyes, and responded to Rinpoche. "Well, we don't do that, do we?"
"You bet we don't!" came his reply.
We left soon after that and on the way out I kept a sharp eye out in case I had to whack one of those monkeys. But as usual, everyone was very polite. In the car I asked Rinpoche, "Does that happen very often? Not wanting to give students the real teachings?"
Rinpoche took a sip of sake from a Dixie cup and said, "Quite often."
I realized again how fortunate we all were to be his students and how the dance of the slogans was victory over war.
-- The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant, by John Riley Perks
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
me too
level 1
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
I uploaded a photo of some of my identifying trinkets. it is in the parent thread to this post for those who want to see it. Everything you see is for sale, btw. hahaha
level 1
breathing216
26 days ago
Hi. A little bit about myself before my questions. I am one of those Shambhala members wondering what is happening. I had been reading this sub for a while, to try to get info that is not coming from "official sources". I am sure I am not the only one who was lurking, and your post convinced me to create an account just so I could post here.
I have been in Shambhala for a little over 15 years. I have gone to VY Seminary and did 2 Scorpion Seal Assemblies. I have received teachings from other Kagyu and Nyingma teachers as well, both through Shambhala and outside. I have never been in the inner circle, although I have done some shifts at the court during programs.
I had a question about Penor Rinpoche, but you pretty much answered that already.
My other question is like a conundrum that I can't figure out, and I also am quite sure many other Shambhala practitioners are stuck in the same situation. I was never necessarily impressed by Sakyong Mipham as a person (I never was much around him anyway), but I have been impressed with many of his teachings. I know this might sound crazy to many people here, and maybe to you. I am not talking about his public books or teachings. But I would say that
most of his vajrayana teachings do feel "legit", and when he is "re-packaging" some aspects, it is usually comes out as what still feels to me as a helpful way to clarify some points.
So this is really confusing. How can someone who seems to understand and have some high level of experience with the teachings still behave in the way we are now learning he behaves? What are your thoughts on this?
(I will probably have other questions on other aspects, but i will go one at a time.)
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
thank you so much for posting 216. I am touched by your question. I am not a person made of steel, and I really am touched.
First of all: Mipham knows his stuff. That sounds like I am saying two things at once. He is not unknowledgeable about dharma, not at all. You got the first two years of SS and the materials for that are him at his best. We all stayed around him because when he taught well, he really inspired. It was his other side, his sakyong side, that caused harm. he was not a healthy or wise leader, he was narcissistic. His teachings were excellent. You are right on, in my opinion. That is what I loved about him.
We now have ample evidence that people who are held up as enlightened and who display remarkable clarity of view are not necessarily mature in other areas in their lives.
I interpret Chogyam Trungpa's life this way, for example. I think he was a deeply "enlightened" person, emptiness was a direct experience for him. Yet it did not correct personal weaknesses that became very dangerous to others. Mysteriously, direct insight into emptiness did not turn him into a paragon of buddhist virtue. We used to interpret his actions to show how they DID, but now we have stopped doing that because it took too much work to keep it up in light of all the new voices coming out with an unvoiced history.
Now we know that either enlightened beings need to practice virtue, or Chogyam Trungpa was not an enlightened being. It did not make him ethical, and his lack of ethical strength killed him by age 47, functionally, much earlier.
messy logic I know. take care friend.
level 3
breathing216
26 days ago
edited 26 days ago
Thank you for your answer. I think what you are doing here is more helpful than what some others are doing on Facebook just attacking and insulting Shambhala and anyone associated with it.
I will take some time to ponder what you wrote, and your other posts, before I ask anything else on that matter.
One thing that keeps me worried since we started learning about all the harm in Shambhala, is what will happen to those who were harmed. Do you know of any initiative under way to offer them support?
level 4
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
i don't know of such an initiative. that is part of my motivation, and I am just a person who once was in.
level 2
CheredeDarievea
26 days ago
I'm new to the Reddit commenting apparatus, so it's unclear to me whether allthewholeworld has replied to this yet. In the meantime, I'd like to give it a go.
I first met Mipham in 1990, before he was considered a tulku. Or a sakyong. I didn't know it at the time, but this was around the time that Patrick Sweeney (the "Regent's Regent") was being touted as a possible successor to Trungpa. Mipham (Osel Mukpo, "the sawang") was being paraded before audiences as the "real" successor. His presentation style was terrible. He could barely string two sentences together. He was just a giggly kid, about my age, and I felt sorry for him.
Then I went to his first Seminary, 1992. His ineptness as a teacher was in full flower, there. He had a severe speech impediment that made him extremely hard to understand. His lack of teaching skill was quite out in the open, and people talked about it, and asked him directly about it in talks. He would just giggle and shrug. It was Pema Chodron who really saved that Seminary from utter disaster. To my knowledge, all of my fellow 1992 Seminarians have dropped out of the sangha.
Then Mipham (after being recognized as "Mipham" and enthroned as "Sakyong") went through a rigorous training regime. He went on retreat in Pharping, outside Kathmandu, and received basic instruction in Buddhism 101 from Jules Levinson. He got the entire cycle of Mipham the Great's (the REAL Mipham)'s teachings in a series of dbang's given by Penor. I attended some of that and saw how well Our Mipham got along with one of Penor's other tulkus, Lama Steve Seagal, who was still considered quasi-legit at that point, but who to my eyes was a fraud.
Long story short, it was a case of incredible transformation. Mipham mastered his speech impediment. He could teach buddhism. I was quite impressed when I saw him in the later 90's, by the change that came over his teaching style.
I go on like this to give some context to your question about "someone who seems to understand and have some high level of experience". I believe that seeming high-level of experience was learned. Normally tulkus learn how to express that kind of "realized" attitude when they are young. Mipham had to learn it much later, and he worked hard at it.All of this took place prior to the events that allthewholeworld has related, but I think it's important to lay out the history, much as LostMeadow has done.
level 3
CheredeDarievea
25 days ago
Maybe I should clarify what I said about the "rigorous training regime" -- This was rigorous, but it was also brief. His study retreat at Pharping, where he studied under Jules and one of Penor's khenpos (Namdrol, I think, but I may be wrong), took place, as best I can recollect, from fall of 1997 to sometime in 1998 (I think there was a Seminary in '98, wasn't there? So he had to be back by then in order to teach at it). Jules also gave him some Tibetan language tutoring at other times, but to my knowledge, Mipham's only hardcore tulku training took place in that brief window of 1997-98 and then he was off to the races. Others may be able to elaborate on the timeline.level 4
saffronandsage
25 days ago
edited 25 days ago
Khenchen Namdrol still oversees the Palyul monastery in Pharping. Interesting that he would be who Mipham studies under. He likes wealthy donors! Namdrol is the main Palyul lama helping to prop Rigpa up since it's scandal. He shamed Sogyal's abuse survivors for speaking out saying they were possessed and trying to destroy the dharma.https://whatnow727.wordpress.com/2017/0 ... to-change/level 5
CheredeDarievea
25 days ago
I recently became aware of Khenchen Namdrol, the despicable shamer of the Rigpa abuse survivors, but didn't realize he was the same as Khenpo Namdrol, Mipham's former tutor. Thanks for making that connection.level 4
BigLoveNow
24 days ago
Re: education -- Mipham Mukpo, then called the Sawang, was tutored for intensive intervals by Lama Ugyen. From what I recall, Mipham was not always so happy to be studying, even when in the Casa Werma setting of Mexico.
level 5
CheredeDarievea
24 days ago
I completely forgot about Lama Ugyen. He was a kind and patient teacher.
level 3
Arupajhana7
25 days ago
It seems to me that Mukpo had a very rich intellectual education, shedra style, in Buddhism, but somehow he wasn't able to integrate this into his conduct and lifestyle. Do you have any thoughts about why this was?
level 4
tashi8888
25 days ago
not correct.
virtually no education. check with the old dogs who knew him from his arrival in the US -- others in Scotland. What I understand is that Dilgo Khyentse took pity on him after his father died and gently suggested he come to India to learn Tibetan language and culture ... which he did, but with little success. Then tom rich situation developed and things snowballed out of control. He may have a Tibetan primary school education -- certainly not shedra level. can't comment on his US high school certificate.level 5
BaronAsh
24 days ago
He is dyslexic. And had definite problems leaving Bir and arriving in England where he was abused by Akong for a while then came to US around 10 and into a very difficult family situation with somewhat hostile (and often absent) step-mother, and crazy wisdom on steroids (during that period) dad. He had learning problems. Could be he was stupid, but I don't think so and never experienced him as such, albeit definitely not an intellectual type. I passed into Oxford UK so have a pretty high IQ. His is higher, for sure. (We high IQ types can tell!!)When you put together that English was a second language and dyslexia, then his learning problems when younger make perfect sense.
I was with him in Dharamsala when he started learning Tibetan (and indeed left the house for 2 months so that it could be a Tibetan-only situation, my idea and I insisted). He enjoyed it and made rapid progress because it was his native language. How far he got with it I don't know.
Rinpoche's other son, Gesar, who is brilliant, also has had a very difficult time with education and suchlike. Rinpoche himself often lamented that he was a lousy father. He was, though he got to spend lots of quality time with SMR, and the two were closely bonded on a deep level.
So I think ATWW is correct: if SMR is deserving of censure etc. then you are also going to have to take a good second look at CTR.
But I'm still a dy'd in the wool 50-50 on this. Figuring mahasiddha level stuff out is notoriously difficult. But I do think some major ef-ups have happened, by both father and son even though I am forever grateful for having spent considerable time with both. And so it goes.
it is actually very hard to accuse anyone of anything. Ultimately, all such things end up being some sort of he-said-she-said.
level 5
Arupajhana7
24 days ago
I read the seminary transcripts from 1999 and 2000. It seemed pretty knowledgable. I don't knew if he had notes on hand... But it did seem at least that he had intellectual information on hand and presented it ok.
level 6
tashi8888
24 days ago
What I was told was he had translators and handlers preparing him heavily. Seems like someone who was there could speak to his mastery of, ie, personal understanding of, the material. Understand there are many lecturers on buddhism in western universities now -- no need for cult apparatus for intellectual learning.
level 4
CheredeDarievea
25 days ago
I think the OP's observation that he stopped practicing at some point is quite telling. Not that practice is necessarily a panacea -- I've met lots of diligent meditators who are just selfish jerks, myself included -- but given that Mipham did not have a solid foundation in practice and study, had an agonizing childhood (as /u/LostMeadow relates), and didn't actually do the practices (per /u/allthewholeworld), well, to be honest it's hard to see how he could have integrated the teachings into his conduct and lifestyle.