U.N. Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese Report

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Occupied Palestinian Territory: Human rights situation - Special Rapporteur
by Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967.
United Nations
Oct 31, 2024



Press conference by Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967.

Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory said, “the genocidal violence” has expanded and “metastasized in other parts of the oPt.”

Briefing reporters in New York City today (30 Oct) she questioned, “How do you explain the 700, over 700, Palestinians who have been killed in the West Bank, including 170 children?”

Albanese further said, “And how do you explain the fact that the Palestinians from the West Bank have been exposed to the same practices and abuses, often rape, among other forms of torture, than those in Gaza? If there was no Hamas military action or presence in the West Bank? Not that the first justified what Israel has done in Gaza.”

According to Albanese, “Impunity that has been granted to Israel has allowed it to become a serial violator of international law.” She argued that the United States has been “an enabler” in Israel’s actions, suggesting it has “a conflict of interest… in orchestrating attacks against anyone who criticizes Israel.”

Albanese further pointed to what she called a “colonial erasure” in efforts to diminish Palestinian identity in the oPt, noting that “75 percent, for example, of the people in Gaza, they’re not even from Gaza. They’re from modern-day Israel.” She said these actions serve as a “reminder… of its original sin” in the creation of the Israeli state.

Additionally, she condemned attacks on UNRWA, describing it as a “symbol of Palestinianness,” and emphasized that UNRWA’s fate rests solely with the General Assembly, noting that “only the General Assembly can decide the future of UNRWA.”

Special Rapporteurs are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN Human Rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms that address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent of any government or organization and serve in their individual capacity.

Transcript

hello good afternoon and welcome to yet another press
conference you had a difficult day today but I think this is the last one so um
we have with us uh Miss Franchesca Alban special reporter on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian
territory occupied since 1967 uh Miss alanza was appointed uh by
the Human Rights Council as independent expert in May of 2022 so we'll first ask her to
um tell us a little bit about her work in the report and then there'll be time for questions
so over to you uh thank you very much good afternoon everyone um I just presented
my fifth report um third to the general
assembly which has a very uh harrowing title genocide as Colonial Erasure and
as I say in the first lines of the report this is something that were walks
on the heels of my previous report what I presented to the Human Rights Council in March this year where I concluded
that based on my findings over five months of Investigation there were reasonable grounds to believe that
Israel had committed acts of genocide in in
Gaza and I've continued to investigate what has happened in Gaza but also the
rest of the occupied Palestinian territory after presenting that
report I um I can say that for over one year I've
pleaded all concerned to all concerned parties uh particularly those States who
can exert more influence on the state of Israel to take concrete actions to stop
the destruction of Gaza the destruction of the Palestinian people to ensure the
prompt and unconditional release of all hostages both Israelis and Palestinians
and to ensure international law is respected and had international law
being respected at least in the last 12 months this would have stopped it should
have stopped it should have been stopped by the security Council last October it should have been stopped uh after the
first set of provisional measures issued by the international court of justice it
should have stopped when I presented my first report it should have stopped before Rafa was invaded or before the
invasion of Lebanon and instead the silence or Worse the
justification of a small but influential number of states as continue to enable and to to
nurture the ubis that leads Israeli conduct as we as we speak the
developments on the grounds are are gruesome and uh it is
long it has actually since the beginning the the the the the violence the
genocidal violence that they have described in my first report uh has expanded and metastized in
other parts of the occupied Palestinian territory and if you look at the patterns of violence the destruction of
Civilian infrastructure roads energy geds uh water pipelines and Reservoir
homes and if you look at the numbers of extrajudicial
killings in the West Bank as well on top of the 42,000
Palestinians have been killed a certain killed in Gaza including 177,000
children how do we explain the 700 over 700 Palestinians have been killed in um
in the West Bank including 170 children and how do we
explain the uh the fact that the Palestinians from the West Bank have
been exposed to the same practices and abuses
often rape among other forms of torture um than those in Gaza if there
was no Hamas military action or presence in the West Bank not that the the first
Justified what Israel has done in Gaza but again not only we see the past
reproducing itself in the occupied Palestinian territory we see the same indifference the same uh ability to look
away of many member states in International Community and we see a total collapse of the international
order which is premised upon the never again that was promised after the second
world war and particular in particular after the Holocaust and the genocide
mostly Jewish people um I'm
I'm very happy to take your questions I don't know what um what else what else to say other than um it's not been an
easy year because surely it has been reluctantly that I took on the the
functions of chronicler of a genocide and it's extremely disturbing to see
member states pontificating and questioning and um and uh obscuring the
meaning of intern naal law and de humanizing the victims of this um of
this last of this last 12 months but however should you have any questions I'm here
yeah you do okay um we have Abdul
Hamid thank you so much uh my name is Abdul Hamid say am from the Arabic da
Al thank you for coming again to talk to us I have a few questions first you have
been personally attacked as always the case when someone criticizes Israel then
they try to attack that person personally like Graham buul with horaa
lazarini now Karim Khan U many others so how do you uh take this uh personal
attacks on you and the second as you know international law
allows people under occupation and foreign domination to
resist I mean they become Heroes I mean we have a statue of Mandela here and
because he was resisting upper side many of the great leaders of modern time were
at at one stage fighting colonialism why only when the Palestinians fight
occupation they are labeled as terrorist thank you
um to be very clear I don't think that Israel is the only state that attacks
special repur special repur get attacked when they uh scrutinize the human rights
records of member states uh and there are states who are more vorous and virulent than others
what it's striking in the case of Israel is that is that there is a cohort of State
who Echoes and reverberates what Israel says and does
and there and there is um an army of minions at work to um to uh
produce literally Fabrications that have one and only one objective to distract
the attention from where it should stay so I will not entertain any discussion
about how I take this attacks because they're not just against me they' have been against the special reporter on the
occupied Palestinian territory who preceded me uh and this year in particular the Secretary General has
been vilified and even declared Persona nrata welcome to the club and um and so
the general assembly what is more shocking to me is that this year the United Nations have
been under an unprecedented military attack 70% of Anda premises have been
hit by Israeli fire and uh which has also hit peacekeepers in
Lebanon and uh the United Nations humanitarian functions have been
hampered at a at a moment where they were the only B the B work to continue
to provide assistance to to the Palestinians in extreme in an extreme
situation of distress and it's because of that that I do believe that while
Israel is by no means the only state that violate violates international law
and it's not even the only states that violate that violate uh the right of
self-determination of a people but it's surely unique in the determination the
the the the the protracted of uh of this conduct and the
fact that Israel has never faced any consequences and indeed I do believe
that the impunity that has been granted to Israel has allowed it to become a
Serial violator of international law which is the reason why I recommended that this is the time as it has been for
aparte South Africa to consider uh for the general assembly to consider uh the
the suspension I mean recommending the the the revision or the suspension of Israel's credential as credential as a
member of the United Nations until uh it ends uh violating
international law until he withdraws the occupation uh which is clearly unlawful
also by determination of the international court of justice and surely uh until it continues it's an
genocidal attack on the Palestinians um you and then
mik hi my name Isam newspaper good to see you again um
I have two follow-ups first on the issue of suspension uh of Israeli membership
or uh to the UN if you could elaborate on that and uh whether you believe this
is something that will get um a majority in the general assembly um and then
um my other question is regarding a third Pary role in the war that's going
on whether it has to do with delivering weapons I mean there responsibility when
it comes to international law and the lack of um Mo them taking any steps and
in and basically supporting so the accountability for not
only for isra but also for third parties and the last thing in your remarks today
to the comittee you talked about the lack of empathy that you are seeing by some member states H in uh not um um
even expressing um any empathy for the Palestinian victims and uh could you and also the
issue of uh the many states um talking about human rights in academic um
context or theoretical context but when it comes to the issue of Palestinian human rights rights uh they are even
attacking uh students they're not allowing uh or attacking people who
demonstrate against the war if you could also touch on that thank you so much yeah thank you first of all I should uh
briefly respond on the second question sorry I missed it um regarding
resistance and I think I've said it before including in this uh in this venue that there is no question that the
Palestinians have the right to resist under International law like all people who are oppressed and who cannot enjoy
the right of self-determination the right to resist is to a people um what the right to
selfdefense is to EST State and uh in the same way it has
limits so it cannot neither can touch civilian life civilian
life is sicker than should always be protected so um I I think that we should always
remind ourselves and respect respect the fact that October 7 has been an
unspeakable tragedy for the for the Israelis who call who call that event uh
the worst terrorist attack they ever suffered and as I I said before for me
those were surely were crimes to the extent they they targeted that they hit
civilians um and should have been met by
Justice this didn't legitimize the attack on the on the uh on the
Palestinians like um like if they were the nation responsible because they were
not and again ref this should have prompt a reflection on the causes on the
root courses that have led to that horrific day uh which is a horrific day both for
the Israelis and the Palestinians I want to underline although I think that this
is not the day the genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza started and
um um is it is it correct that only the
Palestinians are denied of this this this right no I don't think so I I think
that after um then after 911 there is a
an in an increasing uh intolerance for
for people's claims for self-determination and again we are no
longer in the decolonization era uh where the right of the right to resist
was to an extent even celebrated to an extent we are in an
where resistance is seen is often seen and labeled as terrorism this is the
reality for the Palestinians and others um concerning the the suspension so
there are there are different issues there but um what I what I refer to is
article six of the UN Charter which says that when a member of the United Nations
persistently persistently violates the principles containing contained in the
UN Charter it might be expelled from the organizations and there should be from
the organization and there should be uh a decision of the general ass a general assembly upon recommendation of the
security Council um there have been cases where the impass of the security Council has
been circumvented by by by decision of the general assembly to act for example
uniting for peace and this might be one opportunity to consider in this case as
well but I would like to take this opportunity to stress that again this is not an what prompted me to make that
that recommendation is not the fact that Israel violates international law full
Stope Israel violates international law from its birth and international law
includes un security Council resolution and general assembly resolution Israel
has violated including the UN resolutions that he committed to abide by as a condition to become a member of
the of the general assembly of the United Nations and uh orders or and
decisions of the international court of justice and again this year the
escalation of violence and attacks against the United Nations sets a terrible president that if left
unpunished I also encourage other states to resort to the same kind of venomous
reactions toward the the the United Nations losing all respect all respect
for these organizations and this should not happen this is why I think it should now it's time to take an Exemplar
step um considering considering why did I mention the lack
of empathy because I have I don't know if I'm I have the fortune fortune or Misfortune to always present my reports
to the general assembly after the commission of inquiry um which has a team of investigators and
so carries out a very thorough uh work of uh collection of evidence and again
for the third time I heard the member states criticizing the Mandate of the commission which means they don't even
interact with their counterparts uh in in Geneva who have Tor down their criticism toward the commission and
appreciate the work it does instead of engaging on the substance and I've heard
member states mentioning again October 7 I
understand I mean I it's not that I criticize that but like like if history started on October 7 forgetting the 56
years of Oppression and the and the tens of thousands if no more Palestinians who had been killed let alone the 1 million
people people who had been arbitrarily detained including many children so it's it's a bit Preposterous and and the fact
that 177,000 children have been killed and this was not even mentioned together
with the full destruction of Gaza made me realize that no life is not worth the
same and Palestinian life is less worth this for some member states this is a
fact and I'm and I'm also annoyed by the fact that this issue which is so
sensitive to to to Millions because again the life of the Palestinians first
and foremost but also the life of the Israelis for many of them is hell since
uh since last year and there is this sort of U let's
Pi aide attitude in the general assembly one side and the other that again it
Bears Testament to the to the loss of humanity that that has penetrated this
this institution the comment I made on human rights and is and the fact that there
has been an erosion of the value of human rights in the last 12 months was
prompted by the fact that um member states
who member states who uh praise themselves as Defenders of of Human
Rights and sponsor of Human Rights including in their international relations have not hesitated have
not have have engaged in forms of repression and cracking down fundamental
freedoms of their own citizens in in Europe including of Jewish people who
were standing in solidarity with the Palestinians for what they were going through and this is very uh it's very
telling of the of the bizarre time we live uh we live in but especially when
it comes to students who are in a way the most powerful but also the most the
most powerful they've been the most powerful voice speaking truth to power but also they're still the most the the
most frail part of the society because they are investing a lot in building their future and many of them have have
seen their future uh undermined sacrificed for standing for justice and
what kind what kind of message are liberal universities in the liberal West
sending to the students yes we can teach human rights from our um from our
podiums in universities but then don't dare fighting to have them becoming a
reality for all because this is not your job basically this is the message that is been
sent about third party ah third party responsibility is U there is a clear
obligation uh which is gener a general principle of international law law of
State responsibility when there is an international wrongdoing of any sort violations of international law human
rights law international humanitarian law any state has the every state has
the responsibility not to recognize the legal consequences of the wrongful act
and not to engage not to Aid and assist uh in the commission of the
wrongful Act but rather acting to um to uh lead to the sensation of the same and
the and ensure reparations nothing of this has been done but now we are also
in a context where as the international court of justice has recognized the
plausibility of uh the genocide uh could be committed already in
January this triggered the application of the genocide convention mean the
obligation to prevent genocide for which you don't have to wait to have acts of
genocide fully completed and a people or a group completely destroyed you need to
act so that genocide doesn't take place and so an arms embargo was uh was a
clear obligation the day after the court has passed has issued those provisional
measures instead the International Community has uh has followed isra on its uh attack against Tandra and so has
continue I mean member states continue to trade with Israel and to transfer
weapons Mike then Madam Mike wagenheim with I24 news it's been a while since
we've last spoken um a couple questions for you in your report uh you have a
line in here that says that since its establishment Israel has twe uh treated
the occupied people as a hated encumbrance and threat to be eradicated and you go on uh listing other items um
we'll leave aside the contextual and factual debate about that based on that statement it seems to infer that you
believe that Israel has been an occupier since the day of its birth is that your
position you said since its establishment Israel has treated occupied people Etc are you inferring
that Israel's been an occupier since 194 why do you have to ER instead of sticking to what I said and I'm asking
let me let me elaborate um Israel has taken and we can I can concede that
it has done it with uh with the recognition of the general assembly but from a human rights law point of view
and as I take a people centered approach I cannot uh I cannot forget it the
creation of the state of Israel has meant the dispossession of uh hundreds
of thousands of Palestinians of who have been kicked out of their homes and never allowed to return why
so and um is it does it make an occupier
it makes a state it makes of Israel a state who has forci forcibly
displaced significant part of the native population and this is the past that has never been addressed the Palestinians
with Israeli citizenship who remained in Israel have been kept for two decades
under military rule and this is why when I mhm uh when
I when I say an incumbrance I was not even referring to them but as you ask I
mean this is documented so it's not debatable it's it's history and since
1967 which is what I'm most interested in because of the Mandate I have Israel
has continued as continued this practices has extended the the custodianship system
that had been used to take control of all the properties left behind by the Palestinian
refugees but without time limit so from 1967 I think this is military order
5058 one of one of the early military orders Israel has been able to to sa and
acquire all the all the property left behind by the Palestinians the
350,000 were forcibly displaced outside the occupied Palestinian territory in
1967 and the hundreds of thousand who have been kicked out of their homes and lands ever
since so there's been a continuity so it's not just about what has been happening in the
occupied Palestinian territory for the past 57 years is the fact that
unfortunately there is a continuity with patterns of conduct that had already
been enacted in uh in what in modern day
Israel I'm I'm not sure that answers a question but it will have to suffice one other question for you because I know my
colleagues want to jump in here you know about the controversy surrounding your positions and your statements I'm not
going to repeat them here but you did comment on social media within the past
week and I'm going to read this back to you said I'm profoundly committed to human rights for all people how could I
ever be an anti-semite a few days ago you were supposed to have a briefing with members of Congress uh that
briefing was cancelled uh don't know if the the Jewish Lobby was behind it or not but oh you said Jewish Lobby Jewish
Lobby out because it's very anti-semitic appar it is I I I was I didn't use it you did don't know who you feel was
behind it um in any case uh you appeared and your
appearance there was sponsored by a group called code pink you appeared in a video with the co-founder of code pink
code pink well documented shills for some of the world's worst human rights
violators Maduro Iran where they appeared with Holocaust deniers they deny the genocide going on in China of
the weager population completely deny it how can you say appearing with a group
like that that you stand and are committed for human rights for all people and are not an anti-semite this
group is drawn to you and you happily appear with them while they shill for human rights abusers all over the world
and only focus in on Israel according to this principle I shouldn't be asking question from uh from journalists for
example unless I check their pedigree and I explain to you because I was not at an event hosted by good pink check
your sources because this is not correct I was host correct that you appeared in
a video with the co-founder can I finish sure you can I was speaking at an event
organized by B um at a bz boys and Poets a venue I've always uh where I've always
attended wonderful talks then if they have hosted uh people who have terrible
records I don't know but I wouldn't feel responsible and as I was um as I was on
my way out and looking at a Morales U Meda from code pink approached me and
can I ask you a question and I said of course do you mind being on record of course of course not and that is it now
do you want to add on the on the allegations against me because I gave a I answer a question to Mada Benjamin or
do I have to check to do a background check of any person I talk to you have
no idea who code pink is you have no prior contact with them of course I know who could pink is and I but I don't
apparently I'm not as informed as you are thank you for educating me that's part of my job as a journalist thank
you thank you very much stepan York Press
um I'm sorry because I arrived uh I think you had started
already a few minutes so I don't know if you talked about it but uh I heard about when you were talking about the the
Israeli government accusing you to be anti-semitic but
here of anti-Semitism but uh did you respond uh did you respond to that tweet
that Ambassador Linda Thomas grimfield wrote yesterday uh she wrote that as a un
special reporter Alban Alban visit New York I want to reiterate the US believes she's unfit for a role the United
Nations should not tolerate anti-Semitism from a un Affiliated official hire to promote human rights
this is the ambassador of United States at the United Nation what's your response to I have the same shock that
you have looking at how the United States is behaving in this context in the context
of the genocide that is unfolding in Gaza I'm not I'm not surprised that they
attack any anyone who who speaks to the fact acts that are uh frankly on our
watch in um in Gaza and uh they do that so um so brutally because they they feel
called um called out because it's not that is the United State is simply an
observer the United State is being in a an enabler in uh in what Israel has been
doing so of course they have a conflict of interest in uh in this in let's say
orchestrating attacks against uh against anyone who criticizes
Israel but besides this I really don't feel comfortable at entertaining any
longer discussions concerning the attacks against me because it's not about me and I'm not the story the story
is the fact that there are Palestinians who risk to be erased from their land
the questions that journalists should asked I mean this is what I would expect how do you comment on the fact that
Israel has passed laws that Outlaw un organization because other member states
who have a even a worse record than Israel could do the same human rights record than Israel
could do the same and uh and or how how do I comment the fact that Israel is
there has been a plan to erase Palestinian presence from northern Gaza
and the fact that Israel is freely talking about going going back to Gaza and reoccupy Gaza while the
international court of justice has recognize that the occupation is illegal and must go unequivocally and totally
this is what I want to talk about because if we keep on entertaining discussions on is she an anti-mite don't
I'm I'm sorry think what what you want of me I I will do my job until I have
this mandate and that is it uh just a quick followup um just to say that is about what you have
to cover in the sense you if I understood you're saying basically don't don't focus on me focus on on on what I
denounce in my reports and so on uh but if I understand that a special
reporter is effective or could be effective if it maintains is uh uh if
appears not only his but appears uh neutral or they can you know talk to
both sides so for now we seeing that US ambassador
and it's a personal tweet I mean it's a tweet attacking you so my simple
question and it's not a personal question it's about your work as a reporter in the last let's say one here
could you have done something different do you think you could have done something different to maintain your uh you know to be uh more
effective in in be able to talk talk to both side but it you you seem to be someone
who measures Effectiveness in talking to both sides and I don't even understand who both sides are what so can you be be
more specific on who are the both sides I'm talking as a journalist and
not talking as as a journalist say that we see if we do a research uh you know
we as a journalist have to quote our source and everything and unfortunately
and say unfortunately uh your name now when you we quote in
our article because uh according to the report that um Alban wrote
unfortunately you are considered not by me but by what happened in the situation
that we have also the I don't know I don't remember Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield do some an attack like this
for anybody on on Twitter unfortunately is like it doesn't
make your work your reports and what denouncing any more effective because but this is your opinion how do you
measure Effectiveness like look let's cut it short uh first of all there is a an
inaccuracy and I have to to to be uh clear about that and I don't want to put
the spot on you but because I I and thank you for that it gives me the opportunity to clarify but uh an
independent expert of the United Nations with a human rights monitoring mandate is not requested to be neutral is
requested to be impartial sorry it's different it's different tell me how I am partial
because I am the the only special reporter who has in investigated violations of international law
committed by Hamas in my in my second report and the Palestinian Authority and
I've tried I've tried to visit the prisons of the Run by the Palestinian Authority and I was prevented from doing
so by the uh by Israel and who prevented my Vis it and and if you look if you look
at the terms of reference of my resolution of the resolution creating this mandate my mandate uh obliges me to
look at the violations committed by Israel So when you say talk to both parties but I I
understand where what you're trying to say I should maintain uh a position that
allows me to be listened to by all member states and this is what I've done
until March this year I've had the discussions with everyone in March uh
already 30,000 Palestinians had been killed and it was clear that there were it was not in the in at the in the
Horizon that this would stop and again I speak what do I do I I I I tell the
facts and I point to the responsibilities of member states of course member states are not pleased
with it so I don't particularly take uh I'm not sensitive to the fact that
Ambassador uh I mean any Ambassador criticizes my work look at it seems that
there is also some misinformation about the work of special repor I mean the special repor on Iran receives criticism by Iran the
special reporter on Myanmar receives CRI criticism by Myanmar what is unique here
is that Israel is the only state that it's absolutely protected and cocooned
by the by most of the West what Craig mber calls the setler colonial
block yeah and my mandate is the only one who in fact stands looking straight
in the face at western states so again I take your criticism next time try to be
a special reporter on the op and maybe you will be more effective than me we have
a we have have a question online Don if you're still with
us um sure thank you uh Miss Al Don clany with um IPS news I wanted to ask
you about one of the recommendations that you make in your report um regarding putting some sort of Peace
Force um on the ground in in Gaza but I do think you say throughout the occupied
uh Palestinian territory I wanted to see if you could expand a little bit on what
you think think that would look like and then I also wanted to ask you how would you address the concern that if you put
some sort of Peace operation whether it's a force or whatever you want to call it if you put put that on the ground in occupied Palestinian territory
you leave the and it's and it's something that's mandated by the UN it's it's led by the UN you leave the door
open for some misinterpretation that the UN could be possibly you know fighting
Israel or squaring up to Israel um instead of it you know being a being some sort of Peace effort and I was just
wondering how you how you would respond to that thank you
uh I think that on this question we should really consult uh those who have
uh great greater experience than I do with peacekeeping operations because I'm
I'm sure that these are concerns that have been uh raised in other context as
well Israel has no right to be in the occupied Palestinian territory no right
whatsoever the international court of justice has ordered Israel to
withdraw uh unconditionally and totally as rapidly as possible its military
presence dismantling the colonies stopping the seizing the exploitation of
natural resources on the occupied Palestinian territory and making also reparations now how is it going to
happen so the having a um like what I
call protective presence and I've um uh intentionally been fluid and or
ambiguous if you want on this one I've not been very prescriptive because I don't want that the prescriptiveness of
my ideas on the one hand infringe on the on the will of the parties particularly
the Palestinians because the Palestinians are the one who need to make this request at the stage there is
no say for Israel um but this would also
make sure that there is protection for both Palestinians and Israelis while while the Israelis withdraw the
occupation so that there is like like a buffer this is as a minimum um but also
because there is there is a urgent need a urgent need to um take the Israeli
troops out of Gaza first and for most and um and in Gaza the Civil order has
collapsed because um all possible Hamas The deao Authority
related uh Administration officers have been hit Clan structures and Etc and so
there is a need to have I I think a Transit force a
transitory presence which ensures capacity to restore restablish Law and
Order but with a very limited time because it's time for the Palestinians to determine themselves but it's going
to be very very hard the longer the Israeli um army remains in Gaza and the
rest of the occupied Palestinian territory the worse is going to be both for the Palestinians and the Israelis
can I get one more uh sure Don go ahead sorry I also wanted to ask you
about the um polio campaign um as I'm sure you know there's the
successful first round of the polio campaign this second round has has been
paused because of the fighting or whatever else is happening in the north of Gaza and i' and I've seen a lot on on
social media where you know entities especially like Kat will say how can we
be committing genocide when we are helping um distribute you know polio
vaccines we're saving children and and I and I get that you know a vaccine
against polio isn't going to vaccine a child against a bomb or a bullet or anything else I'm just wondering how
that fits into the context of genocide or what what would you say to that
um I think that this confirms my my my sense that there is a general
misunderstanding of what genocide is and what genocidal intent is I've said in my first report that um Israel was not
necessarily denying to have committed I mean that the facts I was
referring to in the report had occurred like the bombing and the um and the
killing of of Palestinians on the ground it has qualified them differently and
I've said uh this is humanitarian camouflage Israel uses uh categories of
international law like humanitarian Zone and collateral damages or human Shields
to justify and to and to make an excuse that distract from the intent to destroy
the intent to destroy a people is the determination to reduce the capacity of
a group to survive um till leading to Leading to
destruction and intent does means that having the intent means that you don't
even need to have the completion of the design of the genocidal design is what
you do to the people and frankly there has been so much pressure on Israel to
allow humanitarian Aid so according to this reasoning so even the fact that during the starvation campaign that has
led many to die and to and to get sick because of the lack of food the lack of water and I've seen some of them
including children so the fact that every now and then the starvation campaign was interrupted by some tracks
allowed in oh so Israel is not really starving the Palestinians I've seen that
the the the vaccination the PO vaccination campaign when it started it was also attacked it had to be
interrupted how did we get there is it an a small Act of basic Humanity going
to hide obscure and mute what has been done for the past 12 months I believe
it's not I mean it might be considered as a as a as an exception but it doesn't
change the overall course of um the overall course of Israel's assault on
Gaza EDI uh thank you very much Miss Alban and apologies I was listening
upstairs um a follow up on what you've just said about uh getting humanitarian
Aid in um what is your reaction to the
Israeli legislation passed earlier this week that would ban the UN agency that
has been a Lifeline forade in Gaza unra um in 90 days
uh three things the act in itself is appalling and it's a blow for the UN
Charter and all what multilateralism is uh uh is premised upon uh which is the
respect of respect for the United Nations and its programs and agency and
organs organs and officials um this is
this is also it's in two respect it's this is the second element it's part of the colonial
what I call the colonial Erasure the fact that Israel in the pursuit of realizing greater Israel is attempting
to um reduce uh physically or spiritually
meaning as a collective the the presence of the Palestinian identity in the occupied Palestinian territory which
means I mean many of whom are refugees 75% for example of the people in Gaza
they're not even from Gaza they're from Modern Day Israel and and um and and
therefore the their their presence is a continuous reminder for Israel of what I
call its original sin it's fact that its creation doesn't matter the justification behind it I'm not
questioning this from a Jewish people point of view but it the creation of the
state of Israel came at a huge price for the Palestinians and it has never been addressed and as I said as after 1967
has even continue because in the attempt to expand uh Israel's control over the
the land Palestinians have been increasingly segregated increasingly
repressed and now an Anda has remained as the symbol of pales not only of
Palestinian uh capacity to to resist on the on the on the land uh but also
Palestinian refugees and so their claims the historical claims and their
historical demand for justice um this is also part and it has
huge humanitarian implications because destroying anra uh preventing anra from
functioning and anra still has the only is the only Remnant uh of the UN large
capacity to still ensure food distribution or um Aid distribution in
general or medical assistance it's very everything is very difficult I'm not even sure in fact that this is the case
because the destruction has been so massive but still anra has the know how to do that and uh this is the third
element is that this is nothing new Israel has been attacking an for the past 20 years steadily steadily seeing
it as part of the problem telling the Israel Ana was registering Palestinian
against the law for Refugee status and I've written widely about that and then I can tell you there has been a
Relentless attack on anra seen as a symbol of Palestinian and and as a quick
followup um the United States gave Israel 30 days to um get a significant
amount of humanitarian Aid into Gaza uh
several weeks ago well was your reaction to to that these are drops my reaction
is that these are drops in the oan I don't understand why member States
including the United the United States cannot simply follow what the law is I
mean I'm really I'm really worried by the lawlessness that is Advanced here
the in again I insist international law says
that Israel at this point by The Liberation of the decision of the international court of justice Israel
must withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territory there is also a time limit for that it is September next
year what the question is what is the United States doing to comply with that
decision what is the United na States doing to ensure that Israel complies
with the provisional measures of the international court of justice the rest is um again I think think it's a it's SM
in the eyes I'm afraid uh we have another question
online uh and then maybe one or two more here and I think we will have to finish so
Jordan online if you yes good afternoon this is Jordan I uh partially you answered the
my question but I have to ask ask the question in different I Ona is not only
a distributor of food Ana is uh is if you look at the W is work alsoa is the
right of rain to the people what do you think about that um as you mentioned U
75% of the people of Gaza they are not gazans they
are um I mean by international law they are Israelis they have to go back and
become Israeli citizen but they were unable to reain uh how can and um we
solved the Palestinian refugees issue with the occupation
ending because in 1967 Gaza was not occupied but Israel sent
100,000 refugees to it in 2005 Israel partially withraw and then besieged Gaza
but the refugees is there in West Bank and my
other question is do you think the war in Gaza actually war on refugees and on
unwa because Israel as many authors wrote including maybe yourself is trying
to eliminate the presence or the issue of right of rain our refugees thank you so
much um I I I'm U as someone who has devoted
many years of her life if studying Palestinian refugees including anra from an academic point of view a scholarly
point of view I can tell you no anra is not the garer of the right of Return of the Palestinian refugees that right is
enshrined in international law is solid solidly built in international law and
even resolution 194 is not the resolution that create the right of
return the the resolution 194 is the first uh durable solution map for for
Palestinian refugees for refugees in fact because it afforded refugees to choose whether to return return to their
homes or to resettle um so it's it's it's a bit more
I mean more articulated than than that I do um of course I do think I do agree
that anra is not just a provider of humanitarian assistance but this is also
one of the elements of criticism that I've brought to anra the sense that anra has withdrawn itself in humanitarian
Corner in order to avoid political controversies but the UN mandate toward
Palestinian Palestine refugees is much broader than that and it also comprises a political Dimension that is with
another body that was created before Andra it's the uncp the new hand conciliation commission for Palestine
and that's been um put out of function because again of political
reasons um concerning the status of Palestinian refugees no under international law they are not Israelis
under international law they are stateless stateless persons um because under international law yes the state of
Palestine exist but is still un UN in captivity and so cannot ensure um cannot
ensure the protection bond that is typical of uh of the relation State
citizen um but besides this besides these
technicalities what what matters to me is that the general the anra is a is a
subsidiary body of the general assembly it's not just a UN agency whatever or a
un program it's been established by the general assembly and only the general assembly can decide the future of Andra
and at the same time uh I was writing this years ago during the Trump
Administration in fact when there was the first massive attack from a US Administration against anr and it was
probably the first was quite unprecedented and again this is it's it's an attent it's an assault on
multilateralism when member states UT utilize their power uh in order to alter
the the Democratic order that exist or should exist at the international level
so they United States or Israel or others should discuss the future of of
Andra within the United Nations and not trying to attack it from outside because
again besides anra and the situation is very serious I already commented on that the other problem is that this sets an
example to get rid of the United Nations everywhere at any latitude when States
um yeah when the states are unhappy with it with the work of the United Nations
I'm sorry I think that's all the time we have because uh our special repter does have other commitments so I thank you
all for coming and with this the press conference is closed okay thank you

[admin]

“Genocide as Colonial Erasure”: U.N. Expert Francesca Albanese on Israel’s “Intent to Destroy” Gaza
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
October 31, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/10/31 ... a_albanese

We are joined by U.N. special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory, Francesca Albanese, who says Israel is committing genocide on Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Facing accusations of antisemitism from Israeli and U.S. officials, Albanese is in New York to present her report, titled “Genocide as colonial erasure,” which finds that Israel’s genocide is founded on “ideological hatred” and “dehumanization” and “enabled through the various organs of the state,” and recommends that Israel be unseated from the United Nations over its conduct. She argues that Israel’s attacks on U.N. employees, including the killings of at least 230 U.N. staff in Gaza, its flagrant violations of U.N. resolutions and international law and the unique status of “the first settler-colonial genocide to be ever litigated before [an international] court” justify this unprecedented measure. Israel’s continued impunity, Albanese warns, “is the nail in the coffin of the U.N. Charter.”

Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Israel’s deadly siege on northern Gaza has entered a 26th day. Earlier this week, the World Health Organization managed to deliver some medical supplies to the Kamal Adwan Hospital, but earlier today, Israeli fighter jets bombed the hospital’s third floor, where the supplies were being stored.

Meanwhile, Al Jazeera reports Israeli forces are continuing to shell Beit Lahia, the scene of multiple massacres this week. On Wednesday, an Israeli attack on a market in Beit Lahia killed at least 10 Palestinians. Earlier in the week, Israel struck a five-story residential building, killing at least 93 people, including 25 children.

Meanwhile, at the United Nations, the U.N. special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory, Francesca Albanese, has released a major report accusing Israel of committing genocide. Albanese concludes that Israel’s war on Gaza is part of a campaign of, quote, “long-term intentional, systematic, State-organized forced displacement and replacement of the Palestinians,” end-quote. The report is titled “Genocide as colonial erasure.”

AMY GOODMAN: Francesca Albanese is now facing intensifying personal attacks from Israeli and U.S. officials. She was set to brief Congress earlier this week, but the briefing was canceled. On Tuesday, the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield wrote on social media, quote, “As UN Special Rapporteur Albanese visits New York, I want to reiterate the U.S. belief she is unfit for her role. The United Nations should not tolerate antisemitism from a UN-affiliated official hired to promote human rights,” unquote. On Wednesday, Francesca Albanese spoke at the United Nations and responded to the U.S. attacks.

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: I have the same shock that you have, looking at how the United States is behaving in this context, in the context of the genocide that is unfolding in Gaza. I’m not — I’m not surprised that they attack anyone who speaks to the facts that are, frankly, on our watch in Gaza. And they do that so brutally because they feel called out, because it’s not that it’s that the United States is simply an observer. The United States is being an enabler in what Israel has been doing.

AMY GOODMAN: That was U.N. special rapporteur Francesca Albanese speaking at the United Nations Wednesday. She joins us here in our studio.

Welcome back to Democracy Now! Thanks so much for joining us.

Well, before we get you to further respond to what the U.S. and Israel is saying, can you lay out the findings of your report?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: Absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me.

I have to say that this report is the second I write on — and I present to the United Nations on the topic of genocide. And it has been very reluctantly that I’ve taken on the responsibility to be the chronicler of — the chronicler of an unfolding genocide in Gaza. In March this year, I concluded that there were reasonable grounds to believe that Israel had committed at least the three acts of genocide in Gaza, like killing members of the protected group, Palestinians, and inflicting severe bodily and mental harm, and creating conditions of life that would lead to the destruction of the group. And the reason why I identified these were not just war crimes and crimes against humanity is because I identified an intent to destroy. And I understand that even in this country, people are quite confused about what is genocidal intent, because it’s not a motive. One can have many motives to commit a crime. And I understand genocide is a very insidious one, and it’s difficult to identify what’s a motive. But this is not about the motives. The intent to commit genocide is the determination to destroy, which is fully evident in — especially in the Gaza Strip, as I identified in — as argued in March already.

The reason why I continue to write about genocide — and, in fact, this report walks on the heels of the previous one — is in order to better explain the intent, especially state intent, because there is another misunderstanding that there should be a trial of the alleged perpetrators in order to have — to attribute responsibility to a state. No, because not only you have had acts committed that should have been prevented by the — in a rule of law, in a proclaimed rule of law system like Israel, where there is the government, the parliament, the judiciary, working as checks and balances, genocide has not only been not prevented, has been enabled through the various organs of the state.

And I explain what has happened as of October 7, which has provided the opportunity to escalate violence, to build on the rage and on the fury of many Israelis, turning the soldiers into willful executioners, is that there was already a plan, hatred. I mean, the Palestinians, like Ilan Pappé says, are victims not of war, but of a political ideology that has been unleashed. Palestinians have always been an unwanted encumbrance in the Israeli mindset, because they are an obstacle both as an identity and as legal status to the realization of Greater Israel as a state for Jewish Israelis only.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, we’ll go back to — because I do want to ask about the Israeli state institutions that you name and the branches of the Israeli state that have been involved in forming this state’s intent. But if you could elaborate on the point that you make, the difference between intent and motive, and in particular what you say in the report about how it’s critical to determine genocidal intent, quote, “by way of inference”? You know, that’s a different phrasing than one has heard in all of this conversation about genocide so far. If you explain what you mean by that and what such a determination makes possible? So, rather than just looking at genocidal intent in other forms, what it means to infer genocidal intent?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: So, first of all, what constitutes genocide is established by Article II of the Genocide Convention, which creates a twofold obligation for member states, to prevent genocide so genocide doesn’t have to complete itself. When there is a manifestation of intent, even genocidal intent, there is already an obligation to intervene, because a crime is unfolding.

And then there is an obligation to punish. How the jurisprudence, especially after Rwanda and after former Yugoslavia, there have been cases both for criminal proceedings, where individual perpetrators have been investigated and tried, and responsibility of the state, litigated before the International Court of Justice. This is how the jurisprudence on genocide has developed.

And the intent has been further elaborated upon what the Genocide Convention says. And while it might be difficult to have direct intent, meaning to have — it’s difficult but not impossible, in fact, to have a state official say, “Yes, let’s go and destroy everyone” — although I do believe that there is direct intent in this genocide in Gaza. But the court also established that genocide can be inferred from the scale of the attack on the people, the nature of the attack, the general conduct. And what it says is that normally there should be a holistic approach in order to identify intent, which is exactly what I’ve done.

And indeed, this is why I proposed in this report what I called the triple lens approach. We need to look at the conduct, like the totality of the conduct, instead of studying with a microscope each and every crime. We need to look at the whole, against the totality of the people, the Palestinians as such, in the totality of the land, that Israel has slated as its own by divine design.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: No, absolutely. And then, if you could — the other precedent you’ve just spoken about — of course, Rwanda and former Yugoslavia — another case that you cite in the International Court of Justice is The Gambia v. Myanmar. So, how is that comparable to what we see happening in Gaza? Why is that a relevant example and different from both Rwanda and former Yugoslavia?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: Let me tell you what I see as the major differences in the case of Israel, because it’s a very complex discussion. But in all four cases, there is a toxic combination of hatred, ideological hatred, which has informed political doctrines. And this is true in all the various contexts we are mentioning. The other common element is that there is combination of crimes. Like, forced displacement is not an act of genocide per se, but the jurisprudence says that it can contribute to corroborate the intent. But the, again, mass killing or mass destruction of property, torture and other crimes against a person, which translate into an infliction of physical and mental harm to the group, not individuals as such, but individuals as part of the group, these are common elements to all genocides.

What I find characteristic in this one is, first of all, this is not — I mean, the state of Israel is not Myanmar and is not Rwanda 30 years ago. This is not war-torn former Yugoslavia. This is a state which has a separation of powers, different organs, as I said, checks and balances. And let me give you a specific example, because you asked me to comment on the state functions. In January this year, the International Court of Justice issued a set of preliminary measures in the context of its identification, before even looking at the merits of the case initiated by South Africa for Israel’s breach, alleged breach, of the Genocide Convention, which identified the plausibility of risk for the rights protected — of the rights of the Palestinians protected under the Genocide Convention, which means plausibility — it’s semantics, but it’s plausibility that genocide might be committed against the Palestinians in Gaza. And the provisional measures included an obligation to investigate and prosecute the various cases of incitement, genocidal incitement, that the court had already identified. And it mentions leaders, senior leaders, of the Israeli state. Has there been any investigation? Has there been any prosecution?

But I’m telling you more. The genocidal statements didn’t resonate as shocking in the Israeli public, not only because there was rage, an enormous rage and animosity, of course. I mean, this is understandable, that the facts of October 7 were brutal and traumatized the people. But at the same time, hatred against the Palestinians and hate speech, it’s not something that started on October 7. I do remember, and I do remember the shock I felt because no one was reacting, and years ago, there were Israeli ministers talking of — freely, of killing, justifying the killing of Palestinians’ mothers and children because they would turn into terrorists.

AMY GOODMAN: Francesca Albanese, talk about the title of your report, “Genocide as colonial erasure.”

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: This is another element which I think — and, in fact, it’s the most important, where we see the difference between this genocide and others, because there is a settler-colonial component. And again, if you look at what the International Court of Justice in July this year concluded, when it decided that the — when it found that Israel’s 57 years of occupation in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem is unlawful and needs to be withdrawn totally and unconditionally, as rapidly as possibly, which the General Assembly says before — by September 2025. The court said that it amounts to — that the colonies amount to — have led to a process of annexation and racial segregation and apartheid. And these are the features of settler colonialism, the taking of the land, the taking of the resources, displacing the local population and replacing it. This has been a feature.

Now, it is in this context that we need to analyze what is happening today. And by the way, don’t believe, don’t listen only to Francesca Albanese. Listen to what these Israeli leaders and ministers are saying — reoccupying Gaza, retaking Gaza, recolonizing Gaza, reconquesting Gaza. This is what they are saying. And there are settlers on expeditions, not only to Gaza but also to Lebanon. So, this is why I say that the main difference, the main feature of this genocide, apart all the horrible aspects of it, is that this is the first settler-colonial genocide to be ever litigated before a court, an international court.

And this is why coming to this country, which is a country birthed from a genocide, when I meet the Native Americans, for example, I feel the pain of these people. And I say if we manage to build on the intersectionality of Indigenous struggle, the cry for justice behind this case for Palestine will resonate even louder, because it will somewhat be an act of atonement from the settler-colonial endeavor, which has sprouted out of Europe, toward Indigenous peoples. So there is a lot of symbolism behind it.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, you know, the analogy — first of all, you talked about the case brought by South Africa, so what they share, apart from South Africa and Israel-Palestine, is both the fact that they were colonial-settler states, as well as the fact that apartheid has been established as having occurred in both places. Now, in the case of South Africa, it was a decision that was taken by the United Nations at the time of apartheid, was unseating South Africa from the General Assembly. There have been calls now to do the same with Israel. So, if you could — if you could comment on that? And then, I just want to quote another short sentence from your report, in which you say, “As the world watches the first live-streamed settler-colonial genocide, only justice can heal the wounds that political expedience has allowed to fester.” So, if you could talk about the International Criminal — Court of Justice’s case in that context, what role you think they can play, South Africa’s case, in resolving or addressing — seeing and addressing this wound?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: First of all, let me unpack the question of the unseating Israel, because this is one of the recommendations I made in my report. Under Article 6 of the U.N. Charter, a member state can be suspended of its credentials or its membership by the General Assembly upon recommendation of the U.N. Security Council. And the first criticism I got is that we cannot do that, because every states commit international law violations. Absolutely. Absolutely.

But there are two striking features here. First, Israel is quite unique in maintaining an unlawful occupation, which has deemed such by — in at least one full occasion, but again, there was already a case brought before the ICJ in 2004, so there have been two ICJ advisory opinion. There is a pending case for genocide. There has been the violations of hundreds of resolutions by the — on Israel, over occupied Palestinian territory, by the Security Council, the General Assembly, the Human Rights Council, and steady violation of international humanitarian law, human rights law, the Apartheid Convention, the Genocide Convention. So this is quite unique.

But all the more, this year alone, Israel has conducted an attack, an unprecedented attack, against the United Nations. It has attacked physically, through artillery, weapons, bombs, U.N. premises. Seventy percent of UNRWA offices and UNRWA buildings, clinics, distribution centers have been hit and shelled by the Israeli army. Two hundred thirty U.N. staff members have been killed by Israel in Gaza alone. U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon have been attacked. And this doesn’t even take into account the smear, the defamation against senior U.N. officials, the declaration of the secretary-general as persona non grata, the referring to the General Assembly as a cloak of antisemites.

Again, this has mounted to a level — the hubris against the United Nations and international law has been unchecked and unbounded forever, but now, especially after the Knesset passed a law outlawing UNRWA, declaring UNRWA a terrorist organization, and therefore disabling it from its capacity to deliver aid and assistance especially in Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem, this is the nail in the coffin of the U.N. Charter. And it can also contribute to that sense of colonial erasure, because here it’s not just at stake the function of a U.N. body — and UNRWA is a subsidiary body of the General Assembly, so it’s even more serious. But there is the capacity of UNRWA to deliver humanitarian aid in a desperate situation, and also the fact that UNRWA is seen by Israel as the symbol of Palestinian identity, especially the Palestinian refugees. So there is an attempt to erase Palestinianness, including by hitting UNRWA.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you about your trip here, as we begin to wrap up. The U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield quoted on — tweeted on Tuesday, “As UN Special Rapporteur Albanese visits New York, I want to reiterate the U.S. belief she is unfit for her role. The United Nations should not tolerate antisemitism from a UN-affiliated official hired to promote human rights.” If you can further address their charge of antisemitism against you?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: And talk about what happened. You were supposed to come to Congress and speak and brief them, but that was canceled this week.

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: Yes, it was canceled. But let me — first of all, I’m very embarrassed to read this, because a senior U.S. official who writes this, I mean, it shows a little bit of desperation. I’m sorry, but, you know, I’m very candid. And let me unpack my antisemitism for the audience. So, what I’ve been accused — the reason why I’ve been accused of antisemitism is because I’ve allegedly compared the Jews to the Nazis. Never done. Never done. What I’ve said, what I’ve done is saying, and I keep on saying, that history is repeating itself. I’ve never done such a comparison where I draw the parallel. It’s on the behavior of member states who have the legal and moral obligation to prevent atrocities, including an unfolding genocide. In the past, they have done nothing — nothing — until the end of the Second World War, to prevent the genocide of the Jews and the Roma and Sinti. And they’ve done nothing to prevent the genocide of the Bosnians. And they’ve done nothing to prevent the genocide of the Rwandans. And they are doing the same today. This is where I insist that now, compared to when there was the Holocaust, now we have a human rights framework that should prevent this. The Genocide Convention to prevent this. So, this is one of the points.

The second point, because — which leads to portray me as an antisemite, which is really offensive, is that I’ve said that the October 7 was not — I’ve contested, I’ve challenged the argument that October 7 was an antisemitic attack. October 7 was a crime, was heinous. And again, I’ve condemned the acts that were directed against the Israeli civilians, and expressed solidarity with the victims, with the families. I’ve been in contact with the families of the hostages. But I’ve also said the hatred that led that attack, that prompted that attack, to the extent it hit civilians, not the military, but it was prompted not by the fact that the Israelis are Jews, but the fact that the Israelis — I mean, the Israelis are part of that endeavor that has kept the Palestinians in a cage for 17 years and, before, under martial law for 37 years. And Palestinians have tried — it’s true they have used violence, but before violence, they have tried dialogue. They have tried collaboration. They have tried a number of means, access to justice, and they have gone nowhere.

I can — I mean, let me relate just this case, because last year I worked with children. And someone who was 17 before — 17 years old before October 7 last year had never set foot out of Gaza. This is the reality. And I spoke with children while I was writing my report on unchilding, the experience of Palestinians under Israeli occupation. And one of them — I mean, there were these two girls fighting, because one of them had been able to go to Israel and the West Bank because she had cancer and could be treated, and the other was jealous, because, she said, “At least she was sick, and she could go, she could travel. I’ve never seen the mountains.”

And again, this doesn’t justify violence, but, please, please, put things in context. And even Israeli scholars have said claiming that October 7 was prompted by antisemitism is a way to decontextualize history and to deresponsibilize Israel. I condemn Israel not because it’s a Jewish state. It’s not about that, but because it’s in breach of international law through and through. And were the majority of Israelis Buddhists, Christians, atheists, it would be the same. I would be as vocal as I am now.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Francesca, just one last question, and we only have a minute. Your recent book, J’Accuse, you take the title, of course, from the letter Émile Zola wrote during the Dreyfus Affair to the French president. You came under severe criticism for the choice of that title. Could you explain why you chose it and what it means in this context?

FRANCESCA ALBANESE: Absolutely. I have the sense that whatever I say comes under scrutiny and criticism. But J’Accuse is — first of all, it’s the title that was proposed by the editor, the publisher. And I was against it until October 7. When I saw the narrative, the dehumanization of the Palestinians after October 7, and what it was legitimized, I said, “This is the title. We need to use it,” because I draw the parallel between what is happening to the Palestinians and what has happened to other groups, particularly the Jewish people in Europe. I say the Holocaust was not just about the concentration camps. The Holocaust was a culmination of centuries of discrimination, and the previous decades had led the Jewish people in Europe to be kicked out of jobs, professions, to be treated like subhumans, as animals. And it’s this dehumanization that we need to look at in the face today, in the eyes today, and recognize as leading to atrocity crimes.

AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you for being with us, Francesca Albanese, U.N. special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory.