Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:33 pm

Part 1 of 4 (Tape No. 4)

Interview with Kay Griggs
by Pastor Strawcutter
Full Transcript
[Transcribed from the video by Tara Carreon]

Tape No. 4 of 4

Start of Tape 4

[Pastor Strawcutter] Your name is Katherine Pollard Griggs.

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] You are the wife of Colonel George Griggs?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] 11 years of marriage?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] It’s true that your husband has been the head of Special Operations under Admiral [Frank B.] Kelso, NATO?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And it’s true you were the head of the Hospitality Committee?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] You were a member of the Executive Board of NATO’s Wives’ Club?

[Kay Griggs] Yes. Absolutely.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And also, your husband’s background includes NATO Defense College in Rome?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Princeton Class of 1959.

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] His intelligence career, his spy career, began in Vietnam?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And it’s also true that it continues until this day?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely, under General Wilhelm.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And that your husband was the liaison between the White House and President Gemayel of Beirut, Lebanon, at the time of the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And in fact your husband was an alcoholic?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely. Incredible.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And continues to this day?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely.

[Pastor Strawcutter] During these drunken stupors, he would, so to speak, blab on and tell you everything he knew about the intelligence community?

[Kay Griggs] Everything.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Nothing was hid?

[Kay Griggs] No.

[Pastor Strawcutter] It was like he wanted to relieve himself and unburden his heart?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And so he told you everything that you now know about the intelligence community that you are talking about?

[Kay Griggs] Yes.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And in fact, he told you that they knew the bombing was coming down in Beirut before it occurred?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And also, by your association with him, you have come to understand and know, as shocking as this may sound to the people who are viewing this, that the United States military is literally run by sexual deviants heavy on the homosexual side?

[Kay Griggs] Truly.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And the U.S. military, people like Jeffrey Dahmer and [Ted] Kaczynski and [Timothy] McVeigh and [Lee Harvey] Oswald, and a host of other people, who have a sexual deviant background, primarily homosexual, these individuals are actually sought out by people in the military –

[Kay Griggs] Army.

[Pastor Strawcutter] -- the Army for advancement into intelligence-type work because they are so easy to control? And they actually become mind slaves? And that the U.S. military literally, as outrageous as this sounds, is a mind control operation?

[Kay Griggs] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Totally now. They’ve gotten rid of the good folks, like [General] MacArthur. They got rid of them, one by one. It’s a total takeover.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Okay. Let’s talk about the individual who told you that we’ve never actually been an enemy of the Soviet Union, that somehow that’s all just been a scam.

[Kay Griggs] Well, my husband. The first three years that we were married, he was drinking three or four straight gin-vodkas a night, a bottle of wine, and there was a beer machine beside his desk. I only knew him two months before he asked me to marry him. He had been married before. And his first wife was a total alcoholic.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Now someone would ask, why would you marry a man after only knowing him two months?

[Kay Griggs] I’m a strong protestant Christian, and I had a lot of predestination [ideas]. I had a Scottish grandmother, and I was working as Assistant Director of the Chamber of Commerce. I had a brand new, relatively new Saab – my first car. It was a 1983 Saab I bought second-hand from somebody who was 84 [years old]. And my husband was driving a 1983 Saab. Mine was a turbo; his was not. He rented part of my house.

I had a young doctor and his wife and two children who were renting the house. They were leaving before the end of the lease time, and they put the ad in the paper, and told me about all of these people. And I said, “No, no, no, no.” And I had been engaged to someone else. I was just renting my house out. And they said there was this man who had a dog, and a mother-in-law, and a son, and he was a widower, and a Marine colonel. And because of his dog, I said absolutely not.

So the point I’m trying to make is that he was someone I did not cotton to. He sort of acted like a robot. He was very clipped, and I didn’t want to like him. But when I heard he was a Princeton graduate, I always thought that was kind of great; when I heard he spoke fluent French, and I speak fluent French; when I found out he drove a Saab when I drove a Saab; and when I found out that he went to the same high school that my uncle had gone to, was in the same eating club in Princeton that my Uncle Ben had gone to; he was on scholarship, and went to Princeton, everything the same as my uncle who was also in intelligence – but I didn’t think about that then. I was just thinking, “This is God. This is too much; too many similar things.” And so it overwhelmed me. He was also very, very good looking at that time. Now he’s aged and haggard.

[Pastor Strawcutter] He had a rough life.

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. So I was overwhelmed by him. Plus, my job at the Chamber was very demanding. I was doing a great job. But he said that he wanted me to retire, because he wanted to make General. And the man who could make him General was General Louis Buehl. Because it was just a matter of having somebody who would make you General to be General. It wasn’t what you did. Louis just happened to die. We went to his funeral. And George didn’t make General, because Louis died.

But his first wife had been, I’m sure, battered to death. I was battered. But I just thought it was Vietnam, and all this kind of thing. And I was trying to get him to stop drinking. Because I couldn’t imagine how the Marine Corps would allow someone to be a total alcoholic. He couldn’t even carry on a normal conversation dry. I mean, he couldn’t even carry on a normal conversation with anyone unless he’s drinking. He never smiled unless he had a glass in his hand. He drank solidly.

I have a letter in his own hand that tells – and this is the truth – he drank solidly this amount that I just said for 30 years. His booze bill – and he and his first wife never entertained – was $250 per month. And this is from the Naval store. Now think about that. He was totally snockered, his whole brain. And yet he’s working. He’s head of running half the world’s Marine Corps under General Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray].

[Pastor Strawcutter] He’s a man who is mentally incapacitated unless he’s inebriated, and then when he’s drunk, he’s in a different, altered state of mind?

[Kay Griggs] He can’t discern anything. All he does is follow orders. And he told me in one of our many conversations where he was trying, he thought because my family were all Naval officers. and I was out in the world with the Chamber, that I just sort of went along with this stuff.

[Pastor Strawcutter] How many wives of high-up military people are there, like yourself, who are speaking out?

[Kay Griggs] None. I mean, they are all 30-year Marine wives. They are Stepford wives. They are petrified.

I have had conversations before I went public, before I went to live with Sarah McClendon, who saved my life. She’s the senior White House Correspondent, the little red-headed feisty Texan who broke the Billie Sol Estes thing. She doesn’t go along with the clone group of reporters who are all – most of them – Intelligence officers. I think she was in Intelligence, because she was in the Army in World War II. And she has just a remarkable mind. And I lived with her for five or six months. And what’s interesting is that she called my home after I had called her and seen her on C-Span. She couldn’t even get through to my house. I was living there by myself. Every time she called my home – this is 1996 from March until she finally got hold of me -- she had to go to another phone in Maryland to get me on the phone. Every time she called me from her home she was told, “This is a military base, and the Griggs’ don’t live here anymore.” Now that was my phone number long before I met George Griggs. It’s my granddaddy’s farm, the house that I own.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So your phone was being diverted?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely diverted. It’s electronic warfare. It’s part of their deception. They have many levels. But it’s all under a big operation. They have an operation now to totally ruin me. His first wife was murdered.

[Pastor Strawcutter] You’ve discovered about this large operation through a diary you discovered. Could you hold that diary up so we can get a look at that? Does the military or people in the Intelligence community realize you have a copy of that?

[Kay Griggs] They do now. I had a phone conversation with General Jim Joy in February 1996. They knew I was on the move, trying to find out information, and my husband had mentioned General Jim Joy. And I had to call a General Miller in Jacksonville who was in my husband’s address book. And I told him I was looking for General Joy for a Christmas card list, and I needed General Joy’s telephone number because one of the colonels who I trusted, Colonel Ken Millice [Colonel Kenneth P. Millice], lied to me. Captain Phil Holwager lied to me. So I got this General Jim Joy, who is the one who was in the Operation Just Cause, the one in Panama. He was in charge of all of the psychological operations: the booming music that they hit Noriega with; the chasing him around –

[Pastor Strawcutter] That was the same stuff they did at Waco, too.

[Kay Griggs] Of course. That’s General Jim Joy who was behind Waco, and General Carl Stiner, the snake, who tried to steal Desert Storm away from [General] Schwarzkopf.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So you were trying to get some addresses, and they were giving you the complete run-around?

[Kay Griggs] Oh, they don’t even know him. And I knew him because my husband told me that he worked with General Joy and General Stiner. They were the triumvirate. But they had different names. They were in plain clothes. They had different passports. So I got him on the phone. I was given the number by this General Miller. I said, “General Joy, I’m Kay Pollard Griggs. My husband, George Griggs, was in the Marine Corps. He’s battered me badly. And we‘re looking for him because this has been going on too long.” And blah blah blah.

And I was recording this conversation. I was sitting on my bed with the diary right out in front of me. And he didn’t know I had the diary. He didn’t know anything. It was a cold call, like they do cold murders when they graduate from SEAL school. Cold murders. I was doing a cold telephone call. And he said, “No, I don’t believe I know your husband.” And those were his exact words. I have a card that General Jim Joy sent my husband after the murder, the death of his first wife, saying “Call me anytime.” Here I was traumatized, battered, beaten, and he lies to me.

So I said, “Well, General Joy, that’s funny, because I’m looking at my husband’s diary when he was in Beirut, and you’re meeting with him almost every day.” And before that, I said, “You know, he was the chief of staff for General Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray]. He’s one of Gray’s boys. You know, Chief of Staff of Fleet Marine Force Atlantic, runs half the world, all the Middle East, NATO Defense College. You don’t know my husband, and you’re a General? You live outside of Quantico, and you don’t know my husband?” I made it very clear. “Nope, nope, can’t say as I do.” So then I told him about the diary. And these are all immature adolescent males. These are men who don’t know how to deal properly with adults. They lie. They are deceptive. They hide behind trees.

[Pastor Strawcutter] But when you nailed him on the diary, he realized –

[Kay Griggs] His exact words were, “Oh, THAT George Griggs.”
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:30 am

Part 2 of 4 (Tape No. 4)

[Pastor Strawcutter] And that’s just the beginning of the run-around and deception you’ve found with these people, and no doubt why they want to have this diary. This one page I found particularly interesting. Read these notes that he had recorded there?

[Kay Griggs] A number of the Marines told me a little bit about [Colonel] Dale Dorman. Dale Dorman is not a happy camper. Dale Dorman, because of some mistakes my husband made, was shot. It’s 7/15-7/30.

“Dorman exited Riviera.” That was sort of a hiding place, whatever. “Grey and tan Mercedes. Up to five shots were fired. He raised his left arm. One round penetrated his arm. One struck his chest. Walked back into Riviera to the desk and called Post 1. Security vehicle went to pick him up. Returned to door. Found 15-18 meters away, and treated. Medvac called 7:50. Medvac wheels down at 0810 in an H-Bird helicopter. Riviera Hotel approximately 0.9 mile west of the Embassy. Dorman has been there since arrival, except briefly during a period of siege. He was not wearing protection. Saw three men in the vehicle. One leaned out back with a shortened rifle or automatic weapon. Sentry at B1 saw and heard nothing.”

It’s just one page of the diary.

[Pastor Strawcutter] “Sentry saw and heard nothing.” In other words –

[Kay Griggs] “Don’t talk.”

[Pastor Strawcutter] There’s just a whole world of these types of assassinations and murders. And at one point your husband discussed people being eliminated like shooting ducks.

[Kay Griggs] We had innumerable discussions over dinner. He’d already had his four gins. Now, he’ll talk to any woman or anybody who drinks with him. This man, what is he doing in security? You know what I’m saying? When he was at NATO – I’ll get right back to that – but when he was at NATO, and he was the head of Special Operations, in fact, I’ve got copies of his secret check-in-and-out papers at NATO. He had them at home. I hope I still have those. But the point is, I could get in and out of the NATO headquarters just walking in. And there were all these shady looking garbage men. And George would leave his office door wide open at lunchtime. He was flirting with a secretary who was a Chief who knew everything. The point is, what lax security.

And I had to say, “George, look, you have got to do something about the security here at NATO, because I can walk in and out.” He said, “Oh, just forget it. Don’t do anything.” And I’m a very demonstrative person when it comes to security and honor and integrity, and your word is your bond. My culture, my father, my people believe in this nation; in my state, Virginia; in my people; my culture; my God. This is important. You don’t just treat that kind of thing lightly. So I said to him, “If you don’t do something, I’m going to Landess Kelso.” I was in the wives’ club. She is the wife of Admiral Frank Kelso, who is a wonderful man, honorable man. And she’s a wonderful woman. And I had great rapport with her.

I sort of stopped an international incident with the French, the English, and the British who were ganging up against the French over something that was really minor, but it was huge. And she helped me. I determined that it was a problem, called her up, and she helped me. And we diverted and averted a major thing. So he knew what I would do. And I said, “Look, if you don’t write a report and do something about this, then I’m just going to go to Landess and say what’s happening.”

The point is, the man, when he was in Beirut, he was sleeping with a spy and double-agent, Mary Clark Yost Hallab, whose husband was a double agent, an Arab at the American University of Beirut. He leaves his briefcase wide open. He was with her for five weeks in a hotel. This is a married woman with two children, who followed him all around the United States, and is still seeing him. She met him in London; lived in Virginia Beach; was working in international programs at ODU, while he was married.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Would you say your husband is fairly typical of these powerful men?

[Kay Griggs] Oh, absolutely typical. When I was single working at the Virginia Center for World Trade, four of us old friends that I went to school with -- Molly Holt and a few others -- we would go altogether to a place called Poppy’s. At that time, he was Captain Jerry Unruh. Now he’s an Admiral – three stars – Jerry Unruh. This man, again, was married. He was running around with the Tailhook crowd. I did not know he was married. I knew he was a Navy captain. I was told by him that he would be taking command of the carrier Saratoga. He followed me everywhere. He even went up to Wintergreen. He sent me private separate pictures of the Israeli guys waving to him. He was a Tailhook pilot, these airplanes. And he was a Mustang. But he was totally immoral. And he knew that he would never get caught. In fact, he was in Tailhook. They had a big party down at the beach. I mean, I didn’t go by that time because I learned that he was married. The point is, he and this whole group. I found out about General Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray].

[Pastor Strawcutter] What is this consistent thread about the sexual degeneracy and the homosexuality, and the raw, base nature that seems to be so prevalent? Have you ever determined what it is?

[Kay Griggs] It’s a way to handle them, to control them.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Years ago, you used to think of people like General Eisenhower as an upright man.

[Kay Griggs] Oh, I don’t know. I know some things about him.

[Pastor Strawcutter] How far back do we have to go where you find people who are decent and moral and upright, where you had real people who defended the Constitution, and were nationalists, and America First? You gotta go back a good ways.

[Kay Griggs] Oh, absolutely. Robert E. Lee was. You see, growing up in Norfolk, Virginia, my whole family had been Naval officers. And they were also working. In other words, they would enter the service during a time of war, of need, and then they would go back to being fathers and husbands. I had a wonderful father, wonderful grandparents, wonderful family, who put their family first. Well, they put their God first, Christ, and then their wives and sons and children. This is the way America was built.

Now these Generals in the Marine Corps and Army, they don’t look at it that way, according to my husband. They are ordered, and my husband being Chief of Staff, told his men it was like this: “It’s the Marine Corps first, the brotherhood, the cherry Marine bonding that goes on. The Marine Corps comes before God, before Jesus Christ, before the country.” And then it’s whatever religion they have, because my husband is not a Christian. He’s an existentialist. And most of these guys are. Certainly Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray] is. [General Charles C.] Krulak. I think his wife goes to church.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Their “God” is this brotherhood?

[Kay Griggs] The brotherhood. And it’s very German.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Does it have Masonic leanings?

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely Masonic leanings. In fact, the Admiral who was the last Admiral whose car my husband bought – he was very impressed with this Norwegian Admiral – they are all Masons now. Not all Masons, but this brotherhood is Opus Dei or the Mob.

The one thing that I’ve been able to determine about the current Marine Corps, the Marine Corps that my husband came in with, [General Alfred M.] Gray, [Tom] Reep [?], [General John J.] Sheehan – they are all Mob. New Jersey Mafia. Brooklyn/New Jersey. The Marine Corps guys are the hitmen. And they are mercenaries. They will work for anybody.

You think the Marine Corps is under the Navy? No way. They can just as easily be under an Army Colonel. And if the Army colonel meets a Marine Corps colonel, the Army colonel is superior. They will switch hats just like that. My husband said, “Iit’s just no big deal. I’ll go work for the State Department.” The Marine Corps is just like a smoke and mirrors thing. And they are run out of New Orleans, the 4th Marines. [Lee Harvey] Oswald.

On his level, he said “We’ve never been an enemy of the Soviet Union.” They work with these Communists. The man who started this whole intelligence operation, the OSS, he was recruiting known Communists, who were involved in subverting Spain. They are not Americans. They are not Christians. They are German existentialists.

Now, what are they doing running our nation? They have more of an affinity for the State of Israel right now than they do our nation. They don’t care about American citizens. The judges now in the courts are military officers following chain of command orders. They’re not independent judges. They are all Marines and Army officers. Who is John Warner? A Marine. Who is Chuck Robb? A Marine. They control the powerful committees. Dick Davis, Lieutenant Governor of Virginia, is a Marine. His wife is – I hate to say it, but everybody knows in Norfolk – a prostitute. You know, Martha was a wonderful woman I’m sure to him, but they were involved in organized crime.

Now I know that our present governor in Virginia is an Army officer. He takes orders.

So the question that all of us wives are asking now is, “Well, who gives the orders?” If they are told that we wives are enemies, how are the sons going to grow up? If the mothers who are teaching them truth are lied to, and the husbands are ordered by the likes of Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray], a major homosexual when he was in Marseilles – I shouldn’t say this, but it’s true. The boys are called “Gray’s Boys.” He never married. Everybody under Al Gray. And he had a separate organization while he was Commandant. It was a contract organization to get information on people. And if they weren’t corrupted, to corrupt them. Farming people so that he would have something on them, so that they could use that later to control and manipulate them.

It’s like what happened to Newt Gingrich and all these guys, Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton who have gone through the sweats. What happens is they get a little tiny thing on them to prove how much power they have. They use guys like Michael Isikoff in Newsweek, or their little clones like Woodward and Bernstein, who are operatives. I believe it was Bob Woodward, it’s either Woodward or the other one [Carl Bernstein].

See, I knew some British Intelligence people. And I was told the whole story about how he [Carl Bernstein] was running around with Peter Jay’s wife [Margaret] who was the ambassador to Great Britain. This man [Carl Bernstein] was sleeping with Peter Jay’s wife [Margaret], and there was a movie. I think Jack Nicholson was this guy [Carl Bernstein]. And this was her story [Nora Ephron] about what she went through while her husband [Carl Bernstein], the columnist, was sleeping with the ambassador’s wife to get information on what was going on in Great Britain.

Now this is the team that broke Watergate. So what were the motives? Of course, Watergate was horrible, and Nixon had something like 60 military JAGs alone working for him, and doing dirty tricks. One of those JAGs was Ernest Frank Reynolds, who changed his name to Ern Reynolds. He came to me. I was farmed. Tim Hunter, an Intelligence Army operative, came to me with this story about hard luck, Saudi Arabia. He was in the Army, and he said, “I have a friend who could help you out with your legal case. He’s a really good guy.” Ern Reynolds. “And if you meet him, I know he’ll do some free legal work for you.”

So I was staying with Sarah, and I didn’t have any money. But I took the train into Fairfax where he was. He met me in his Volvo station wagon with his jacket on. I didn’t know what the big “4” meant on his leather jacket, but it meant 4th Marine, an Operative. And he had the most fantastic apartment.

See, I’m a big book person. I love reading history and everything. And I’m impressed by people who read, who are intelligent, and who are wise. I have a Masters myself in Scottish history. I have an undergraduate in Virginia history. I worked on the Dunmore papers. I studied with people like Ian [B.] Cowan [The Renaissance in Scotland] and Geoffrey Barrow [The Kingdom of the Scots] and [Sir] Tom Devine [The Scottish Nation]. These are scholars in Great Britain who are experts in the Reformation. And my interest was Mary Queen of Scots at the Reformation. And also Lord Dunmore, who was the last royal governor of Virginia. And I was working on the Dunmore papers. And I was impressed by Ern Reynolds. And he was divorced, and had a sad story and everything. He worked for the Justice Department. He was supposedly a whistleblower. Supposedly a Christian. So he’s really going to help me out. Boy, did I buy into that.

So I caught him sneaking around my house at 2:00 one morning. And of course, I was the most gullible in school. And I’m trusting. I’m a Christian. And I always look to the good side of somebody. I see the good little part. It took me about three times. The guy had my original documents that had just been in my briefcase under his car seat. He invites me to a Cybernetics conference in Champaign, Illinois. I leave Martha Roundtree’s apartment, and it’s arranged so that all of my things are in his safe little car. And we’re going to his parents’ house in Roanoke, “And of course you know, you can’t take all of your things to the Cybernetics conference,” he says. Because I was going home. But this is a smooth psychological operations guy. He is doing psychological operations on a woman in Champaign, Illinois, who is the lover of a German spy. He’s been writing letters to her. He’s showing me these letters. The guy is perverted. He’s writing Susan Parenti these letters, invading her mind. And Susan’s written him two or three letters. She’s very beautiful. And he’s got pictures. But he’s sharing these letters with a group of seven men, one of whom is head of computers and Intelligence for the Army, Ron Jarmuth. Now Ron Jarmuth comes right out and says, “I’m an anarchist.” His family are New York old Zionist Jews. He met his wife, I think. in a kibbutz. I mean, he’s a nice, personable guy, but when you say to somebody like me, “I’m an anarchist,” just so blithely --And he’s always over at Ern’s house.

And Ern’s got a picture by his bedstead drawn by a man who is a known homosexual, who he met while he was at the University of Virginia. He was the Chaplain at Hollins College. And my best friend was there. And she said, “He’s a well-known homosexual.” And I’m thinking, “What is a picture of Ern Reynolds doing being painted, when he is young, by this known homosexual?” And then I find out that the man who enlisted him in the Republican party was doing dirty tricks for seven years for the Republican National Committee, dirty tricks, underneath this man from West Virginia who was a homosexual. And he left all of his money to Ern’s son, and took his son on a trip. And Ern is a lobbyist for homosexuals. He’s working in the Episcopal Church. He’s got a group of women that he meets with at the Seminary.

I’m sure that my case, my profile, he probably has charge of it now. He’s the expert on Katherine Pollard Griggs. But he’s not. The guy is absolutely not grown up. He’s a thief. He was a JAG. A sabotager. He turned on me right in the middle of the Commissioner’s hearing. He laughed at me when I cried. You know, this is a guy who hates women.

And the interesting thing is, I went to his family home. And he had a wonderful mother. And he told me that his father battered his mother. His father was in the Marine Corps. And there was a picture of Chesty Puller in the basement.

[Pastor Strawcutter] That fits the profile, doesn’t it? His father battered the mother, and he grew up in this dysfunctional environment. So when he hit the military, he was noticed in college, or ROTC, or whatever, who said, “here’s a guy who is susceptible to mind control.” I think you used the term “budding.” He was recognized as a potential bud. And he’s moving up the ranks.

[Kay Griggs] Yes. Totally dysfunctional [family]. Yes. His roommate was from New York, and was a Zionist. And he was an outcast at the University of Virginia. He felt he was an outcast. So he had this roommate. And I don’t know this man who was the homosexual from West Virginia. And we had to go through his town. The guy died. But this homosexual was a friend of the homosexual Chaplain at Hollins College, who I met. We had lunch with him one day. The father had the picture of Chesty Puller. and so forth.

Well, I knew Ern was trying to sabotage me and so forth, because I had already had Alexander Robinson come down from Princeton every other weekend, he was my husband’s teacher, and he was also a Marine. His family brought over the Saudi royals. He was one of my husband’s teachers. And I caught him walking around my house at 2:00 in the morning. I overheard him talking to my best friend’s mother saying, “Now, we just” – undercutting me – “We just don’t know. Kay is just under SO MUCH STRESS!” And he’s a very handsome, dignified guy. He went to Columbia University. He was in the area of Algeria with the Marine Corps. Then he went into the boy’s school, the Hun School. He’s in Intelligence without a doubt. His brother-in-law was Colonel Bill Eddy who was, I believe, his brother-in-law. He was a translator for the Saudi Royals during the Roosevelt administration. And the Roosevelt New York crowd was trying to steal all of those countries away from Great Britain. The Balfour Declaration had come in. And there was a guy named Moose -- not the present [George Edward] Moose, who has the Africa desk at the State Department, who is an African-American. But this was a guy named Moose, who helped the State Department steal Saudi Arabia away from Britain. Because Britain was allowing the Saudis to be Saudis, to keep their religion, and to keep their culture. They were not trying to kill people right off the bat, you know.

So George is part of that OSS crowd.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And their stock and trade is murder, assassination, creating conflicts, phoney baloney wars, for the purpose of?

[Kay Griggs] Selling weapons. Money. Drugs. Controlling the drug flow.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Let’s talk about the drug flow in the U.S. Based on your conversations with your husband –

[Kay Griggs] I met drug lords through him. I met the head guy – see George was telling me everything the first three years of marriage. It was like, “You’re with me, gal.” Because he was so used to talking to Mary Hallab and Ambu Shu [sp?], you know the group partnerships with sex and all this stuff. And you know, I’m a pretty loving woman, and I’m fun. I was then.

[Pastor Strawcutter] But you’re not into swinging.

[Kay Griggs] No, I’m not into swinging! And George was into swinging. He and Sue and Nancy and Jim Earl. And I heard about that from Colonels, and one Navy Captain. I met Fahim. George told me what they did. Fahim was a Colonel. He’s in the diary too. [Colonel Fahim Qortabawi]. George said what they do is they cultivate the sons of prominent families. The State Department finds them. They are called “Rising Stars”. And they “turn” – that’s the word they use – they “turn” them. They rope them in. If they are alcoholics, they give them more booze than anybody. If they want women, they find the women. They “turn” them, and then let them know that if they ever get in any trouble, they can come on over here, and we’ll take care of you.

Well, Fahim had come on over here. Things were getting hot in Beirut. He was a Catholic. He was from a very prominent family. And he was going up and hiding in Maine. I remember I had his number. And I talked to his sister. But they’ve culled a lot of stuff out of the house the first time when George disappeared. And then I found out what happened to Sue, his first wife, and all that.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Did you come to learn how drugs actually come into the country? I saw a newspiece one time where a pilot who was in prison alleged that they actually landed on military bases with huge planes loaded with dope.

[Kay Griggs] This is how they all brought them in, the Norwegians, and the Brits. The drugs would come down through Burma, Turkey. They come through the Bekaa Valley. The banks were in Beirut, and they were in Panama, Mexico, and in St. Thomas. They are laundering the cash. That’s why some of the banks in New York, you can very easily find out who the drug lords are.

Barry McCaffrey I saw him two weeks ago. He let it slip out. He’s an Army General. He said, “We haven’t done any more or any less in the last five years in terms of the war on drugs.” They are just holding it. The word he used was “holding.” And you could tell it was a word they used in briefings.

The guys who are doing the drugs, controlling the flow, are military officers. In fact, one of George’s best friends, Colonel Ray Moore, I suspect that Ray Moore was from the gang-ghetto area in California. His wife, Charlotte, was a very good friend of mine. He’s dead. When George would sort of just disappear all of a sudden, they would appear and be in the house to calm me down, take me over, exercise, and do all this mystical stuff. And it was really funny, because they came back from Mexico, and George just happened to disappear, and they were right there.

I knew all this stuff about Ray Moore’s background, and I started thinking, “What’s going on in Mexico? Why the heck is Ray going down to Lake Chapala?” And he would talk about his day. His day would be going out with the men playing golf, and going to the spa with the men. They were doing deals, and going to Guadalajara. And there would be Tom Reep, another former chief of staff for Al Gray [General Alfred M. Gray], going to Mexico. There would be [Colonel] Ken Millice, another temporary chief of staff. When George’s wife’s funeral took place, there was Ken Millice [Colonel Kenneth P. Millice].

Now these guys are part of what we call “The Brotherhood.” And they are all going down to Mexico. So what’s going on in Mexico. Ray’s one of these guys who wants to go sit in the sun. He doesn’t want to go down there to Mexico and do all that stuff. But he did. And he got cancer all of a sudden. And another guy got cancer all of a sudden right after he got out of the Marine Corps.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:17 am

Part 3 of 4 (Tape No. 4)

[Pastor Strawcutter] Not to diverge, but did your husband ever tell you anything about disease warfare, like giving people sicknesses?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah, yeah, that’s part of what George called “ABC” – atomical, biological, chemical. And “NBC” was something like nuclear, biological, chemical. They call it “biologicals.” And in fact, I’m not going to mention his name, because this is a guy who is really a good guy who is scared, the word they use is “shitless.” Excuse me. But that’s the word. This guy is petrified, because he’s doing that work. Dealing, subterfuge, and deception in the Middle East. He’s a Marine Corps Colonel. They use disease-causing drugs in missiles. This is an elaborate big business. Like Peter Kawaja, a Marine Corps guy, who is working in plain clothes at one of the plants in Florida. This is why George is in Florida. We manufactured the chemicals and biologicals that were in Iraq.

Now if you don’t believe me, you don’t believe Peter Kawaja, Marine Corps Colonel who says they killed his wife -- I believe him. He worked in one of these factories that was supposedly a candy factory, where the Marine Corps were manufacturing deadly killer things. [General Alfred M. Gray] Al Gray, [General Charles C.] Krulak, [Commandant] Carl [Epting] Mundy. He’s in the CFR. He was in Ken Millice's [Colonel Kenneth P. Millice] class, who was the chief of staff, the one who controlled me. I went to his mother’s house in Seven Mile, Ohio -- Flow. His father was a German Nazi. I’m not saying that being a German Nazi is bad, but he’s part of this group. And if you don’t believe me, if you don’t believe Peter Kawaja about the drugs, everybody knows.

There’s a guy named Randy Aber, Lieutenant Colonel. [Actually a Major]. He’s a hero, an American patriot. This is the guy who should be the commandant of the Marine Corps.

[General Charles C.] Krulak -- I’m talking to you. I’m talking to [General Alfred M. Gray] Al Gray. I’m talking to you Carl Mundy. You all are adolescent, and immature. I call you twerps. You’re liars. You cheat. You steal. You kill. You’re beneath the contempt of any of your wives. They are scared to death. Why do you do this to your wives, guys? Look at that tape of Randy Aber. I knew Chesty Puller, and this is a strong, wonderful guy. I knew his wife, Virginia Mack [Montague Evans]. I knew a real Marine. You can’t say that you knew them, because you didn’t. I did. Randy Aber sat, and he could hardly talk. He was leading a platoon into Iraq. His wife was sitting to his left, and his wonderful father was sitting to his right. And he said his Colonel – he’s a Lieutenant Colonel at that time; I believe he was a Lieutenant Colonel [Actually a Major] – he said, ‘All of our registers were saying, this is dangerous. There are chemicals and biological everywhere,’ I was told. And I followed orders.’ And he was having a hard time talking. This is a young guy. His wife was having to interpret for him. He was crying. He’d been turned on by you guys. He said, ‘On those canisters, on those boxes, were American, AMERICAN flags. Those were American biologicals that we were walking into that killed me, that YOU [Al] Gray, and YOU [Brent] Scowcroft, and YOU [Robert] McFarlane, and YOU guys knew, and Ed Wilson (best friend of my husband), that you all sold to Saddam Hussein. And not only that, I talked to the man who trained the woman who was sent over from Iraq to learn how to build the biologicals and chemicals plants. She was trained here in the United States. And you all know that.’ And Randy Aber’s testimony says everything that I could say a million times better, because this is a man who is a real man, unlike the Generals. Unlike the Colonels. This is a real hero.”

[Pastor Strawcutter] Is Randy Aber still alive?

[Kay Griggs] I don’t know. And I hope and I pray to God that he is. Because this is the man who should take over our Marine Corps. Or his wife! That’s why they don’t have any women in Special Operations. That’s why they don’t have any African-Americans. They are too honest. They are too strongly Christian.

Now, the only guy I know who is involved is a homosexual. And his buddy is an Israeli agent. And they are lovers. They are a pair. But now he’s a Colonel. He is under the guidance of Ken Millice [Colonel Kenneth P. Millice].

[Pastor Strawcutter] So these Generals, over a period of years, it’s consolidated to where they are all part of this Club –

[Kay Griggs] Members of The Firm.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So as The Firm grows, even as the grey-heads get old and die off, or retire, they’ve already set into motion a system that culls out these young, budding, rising stars, and they move their way up. And in time, it consolidates to where no one is in this unless they are in the Club.

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So is your conclusion, based upon your husband’s revelations, diaries, and this sort of thing, is there anybody in the U.S. military, the Army, and Marines, anyone on the level of Generals and Colonels, is there anybody who would not be in this Club?

[Kay Griggs] There’s nobody who doesn’t know in Special Operations, I would say. And I would put money in the bank on this. Not one of them is not a party to this. Once they get that Bird Colonel, that Bird, they go through an initiation ceremony. And my husband told me about that too, guys.

[Pastor Strawcutter] What’s the initiation ceremony like?

[Kay Griggs] They get them drunk: dining in, shellback, anal sex. But they get them really drunk. The guys who are that way do it. It’s a group situation thing. And I was told by two Colonels who said, “It’s normal, Kay. This is just what we do in battle. This is just what we do, Kay.” They get drunk, and they ejaculate. They beat each other off. It’s awful!

Now, I’m not God, and I’m not going to judge them and their souls. This is a well-oiled system! And when you’ve got the Commandant well-known as a cherry Marine, that means they are the bottom. The Navy guys are on the top.

Think about this. There’s Walter Chrysler in Norfolk. Each Port has a hierarchy. The wealthy are at the top: Walter Chrysler and Phil Hornthal. Everybody in Norfolk knows that. Where did they meet? In the Navy.

I was engaged to Jack Mace when I was at the Virginia Center for World Trade. He ran the Maritime Association and the Shipping Association. He always dealt with the labor union guys. They always had all-male banquets. And I couldn’t understand why, if I was engaged, I couldn’t even go to the Thousand Man Banquet. I had a big argument about that. Rock Hudson. Where did he meet his guy? Navy. Jim Nabors? Navy. All of these guys: Navy. So they are tapped for whatever it is: acting, singing, Liberace.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Was he Navy?

[Kay Griggs] I believe he was. [Walter Liberace. His brother was in the Navy.] Someone told me that he was a friend of one of the guys in Norfolk. There was a ring, a VMI ring of men, in Norfolk. And I knew they met once a month. And some of them were married, and some of them weren’t. But they were all Army and Navy. It was a group of men in Norfolk.

And then I found out that the organizations, like Al-Anon, is run by homosexuals. The Better Business Bureau. The guy who runs the Community Fund, Jack Mace. And I’m wondering which ones aren’t. They all are. And the guys know it.

So what’s going on here? Old Dominion University, Clyburn: Intelligence family. He was well-known. Two reporters on the Virginia-Pilot, who do the very important columns, and so forth. So I’m saying, “Who is making the decisions to do this?” They are military. “What is the reason behind it? Why do they keep the wives out of the loop?”

[Pastor Strawcutter] So when people say America is becoming a modern-day Sodom and Gomorrah, this is not a broad generalization? This Club, as it has grown over the years, places and promotes the key people in every strata of life –

[Kay Griggs] Absolutely. Banking.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And not only is the Military run by degenerates, and top heavy-weight degenerates, people who are moral can’t possibly move their way up?

[Kay Griggs] They kill them. They get rid of them. Because they can’t be controlled.

Here’s one example. I was the executive secretary – well, the Virginia Center for World Trade had a board of supposedly the most important leaders, who were picked out by Jerome [Bookin-] Weiner, Jerry Weiner. I was a shill for that. I had done a lot of great things at Old Dominion. They wondered why I did it, because they don’t understand Christians. And he knew I was a worker. So they hired me to go over to the World Trade Center, the Virginia Port Authority. I had an office in there. And Jerome Weiner – what’s interesting is that Mary Clark Hallab worked for him. The girl who had my job who was a normal woman like me, because there were a few who were not so normal, like Bobby Bray. Not the Bobby Bray who ran the Port Authority, but another Bobby Bray. He was very nice, but he was a known homosexual, and he worked with Weiner. But his secretary was pushed out of a window. And it was all hushed up. This was a young mother who had a baby who knew too much about his money laundering. I reported the money laundering to Bookin-Weiner.

Now this is a professor, head of international programs at Old Dominion University, Jerry Weiner, whose father was very high up in this Zionist group. Jerry Weiner was doing Intelligence work in Algeria, and in Morocco in particular. He organized this board that I was the secretary for. He was a very sick, mean guy. But Jack Mace was on the board. And there was a banker on the board. But Gustavo, I love the guy. He was from Columbia. He was in Virginia National Bank, which is now Nations Ban, and I didn’t put him, because I had studied Latin American history under a wonderful Dr. Blossom. I knew a lot of stuff about Latin America and Nerenio [sp?], and how Panama became a part of our country. I mean, I understand it was drugs and running things through and everything. But Gustavo was in charge of all the laundering that was going on in Virginia National Bank and the Port. And where did he go after that? He went to Florida. And he introduced me to Ana Maria Quintero, whose brother was one of the big mobsters, I mean the big Columbian. I met Ana Maria Quintero.

See, I don’t forget things like this. That’s why they don’t like me. Because I imprint on wonderful foreign people. I want to know them. I want to send them Christmas cards. And it’s not very good to have somebody like a little magnet. I’m sort of like a Monica [Lewinsky]. She’s seeking out sex with important guys, and I’m wanting to meet people like that from different cultures, because I want to learn about them. Because that’s what Christ said. He said, “You go out, and you minister to the people who are foreigners. You don’t just spend your time with the home people. You need your home people as a base, but you need to go out and find out truth, and spread goodness everywhere. Truth is goodness. Truth is light.”

And that’s what Christ is all about. You’re not afraid to learn truth. All these cathedrals and things that were built in his honor. Why? He was wonderful. Why was he wonderful? Not because he hung around a little group, but because he was out trying to tell the big guys, “Look, stop being bullies and cowards. Let the poor people into your church.”

God gives us all a unique spirit. Our timing is different. Everybody’s fingerprints are different. Our eyes are different. We have the right to read the gospel. They shouldn’t keep the Bible from us. The church is not a political organization, where you’ve got a few little guys up here telling the mothers what to do. Who were the ones with Jesus Christ on the third day? There was not one disciple there with him. There were the three women. So why are we leaving women out?

Women in Scotland at least, my culture, we’re partners with our men. We need the authority of a husband. We want a strong, moral husband. But what is that passage about the good wife? Proverbs: the virtuous woman. She’s buying and selling property. She’s doing everything. So why keep her at home barefoot and pregnant, and not being able to read and speak three languages, and welcome all the foreigners to come in?

Hey, that’s what Jesus Christ would be doing if he were right here. He would be right here with me saying, “Go for it little woman. I’m giving you the strength to tell the daggone truth. And if you get killed tomorrow, you’re going up there.”

[Pastor Strawcutter] When you get to be a bird Colonel, then they have this initiation that involves all of this sexual debauchery, where they get them big-time drunk. Because there would be some of these, if they were sober, who couldn’t go through with it. They’d have to be blasted. When they go through all this stuff that they do, are there people there gathering information, intelligence on them?

[Kay Griggs] Of course! The Chaplains are Intelligence. In Nazi Germany, you had to tell on your parents. And in the Soviet Union, they encourage you to tell on your parents.

Phil Holwager, the guys who go to Yale who have become Chaplains, the Chaplain Corps is there to tell all the tales on everybody. They have collection agencies. These Marines are ordered to go and collect so-and-so at so-and-so. If a Marine tells truth, if he’s a whistleblower, if the wife is too much trouble, they “collect” them, they throw them in, they fill them full of chemicals, and they’ll implant little things in them. I believe my husband has an implant.

[Pastor Strawcutter] McVeigh said he had a chip implant.

[Kay Griggs] I believe George did. Now ask yourself, I know George had a male friend. He has male friends. My husband is bisexual. And I was told that by a Colonel and a Captain, and by a psychiatrist.

[Pastor Strawcutter] What percentage of these higher-ups are bisexual?

[Kay Griggs] All of them. If they are in Special Operations, if they’re Marines, they are all bisexual. They have all had to do it. In order to get to be a bird colonel, the SEALs, it’s kind of like the fast road to the top.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So a guy could not be a SEAL without having gone through this?

[Kay Griggs] Oh, I don’t believe so. I haven’t met one that I don’t believe would have done it. And judging from what a couple of Colonels told me, that’s the norm. “It’s just you women. You all are so sissy. You don’t understand how it is. We’re under so much pressure.” And when Valerie Wilhelm told me that about Charlie, I just could not believe it. Charlie Wilhelm is a General now down in Miami. And she was just saying, “He has to, he’s under so much pressure.” Of course, I had met Charlie in Norway, and Charlie is somebody my husband just absolutely idolizes.

And Michael O’Boyle is another one. Michael is my husband’s special friend. And when my husband retired, we went to Al Gray’s office. This was a traumatic thing for me. It was a really weird day. We drove up with George’s son Douglas, and my son Garland. We went to the Commandant’s office. They had something for us to nibble on and eat. And the Commandant’s wife Jan [Goss] came over from 8th and “I” street, the Commandant’s house, with her dogs. She sleeps with stuffed animals and dogs. I don’t think there’s any lovemaking that goes on with Al Gray and his wife, quite honestly, and neither do the Colonels. She is a wonderful sweet person, and scared to death. She worked for his Intelligence organization. And then she supposedly “took care” of his mother. And then they married, because he would not have made it. Everybody knew he was a homosexual, not a bisexual. This is a homosexual Commandant.

I talked to one woman who went to one of the parties, who was French. And she married a Naval officer. And it was when George and I were first married. And I told George about what she said about General Gray. She said, “You cannot believe it, but this man is totally debauched. This man does these group sex orgies outside of Marseille, France. He is just horrible.” She said, “Now I have to admit, I was a party girl, and went to these parties.” And so forth.

But what would happen is, and I met a guy in the Laundromat who was enlisted, and he was involved in Beirut, and he knew my husband. He was going back and forth from Gaeta to New Jersey to ship, and then into Beirut on the beach and everything. He worked for an Admiral. And this is a big Admiral. And the Admiral, they would go to these parties at this big mansion outside of Marseille. What they did is they invited the wild girls, the secretaries. And this went on in Indonesia. My husband had a secretary. Ambu Shu’s husband Hank was sleeping with the secretary. My husband was sleeping with a secretary and Ambu Shu [sp?], because my husband’s wife wasn’t there. So they had their little ménage a quatre. And of course, my husband was sleeping with Ambu Shu, who he says now is a lesbian. But he was sleeping with her. He called her right after his wife died. And I found the telephone numbers, and her address, and her birthday, and all of these letters he was writing to her.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Isn’t there a disease that runs rampant with these people?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. So this guy would guard the parties. Now how does that make a young guy feel who has got a child? He’s guarding an orgy. And there were Israelis at these parties, Intelligence people. Intelligence? That’s not intelligence there. That’s perversion. These guys are abnormal. They are adolescent. They are not full, complete people. So he’s guarding the parties, and he says, “The girls come in, and stay until about 11:00.” They are all nudists. Jim and Nancy Earl, my husband, Ty Kroll, and most of the Chiefs are nudists. It makes it easier, you know, to see the little -- it’s terrible. But the women leave at about 11:00. This is what he said. I mean, I knew the girls were there because I’d already talked to the French girl. And he said that what they do is the women leave about 11:00, maybe 1:00, and the guys all stay around there. It’s just the ritual. This is what they do.

Then I found out, because my husband would mention this guy and that guy who he went to school with. Bob Edwards is involved with this stuff. But the guy that recruited him, Charles Caddock, is a well-known homosexual who is the “head teacher,” and the bodyguard for the Saudi boys. See, the Saudi boys were encouraged to do this in order to corrupt them. They were corrupting Muslims, who would not have done this ordinarily. The parties at Aramco, they would get the young boys really drunk, and encourage Muslim sons to do this kind of stuff.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Muslim sons who would have a strong tendency towards morality, and abhor this kind of thing. If they could get them drunk, and loaded enough to do this one time, then they would gain a controlling edge on these guys.

[Kay Griggs] That’s right. And who do you think did it? Charles Caddock and Borland [sp?]. These guys, like Alexander Robinson and [Paul R.] Chesebro, who was the headmaster. The Saudis bought Russell House at the Hun School in Princeton. They brought over Mohammed Faisal, Khaled Faisal, and Saud Faisal. They didn’t really go to classes. And who was the young man who was partying with them? My husband, George Griggs. Who was in the group with them? Einstein. My husband was partying with Albert Einstein. This is in 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955. I believe he said that Mohammed came over in 1954. It was right after the murder, the poisoning of the one who was really good.

When they first got to him, he was in high school. So he was in 9th grade. He was at the school with these homosexuals. They sent his parents to California. His father got him a little boy scout job. He didn’t see his parents for 8 solid years.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:43 am

Part 4 of 4 (Tape No. 4)

[Pastor Strawcutter] And Albert Einstein was in this group.viewtopic.php?f=179&t=968&start=161

[Kay Griggs] Yes, in that homosexual, bisexual group. Absolutely. Also Camus and Sartre. I don’t believe my husband actually met Camus, but Camus was a lover of his French teacher at Princeton. Not Todavey, the one who helped him with his paper, and who he had an affair with. And I was told that by his normal roommates who he had later on, and by another roommate, who knew George was doing this stuff. George was a cheerleader. He was a French major.

Another young teenager who was cultivated was Bob Edwards, who was a Marine Corps Colonel. He was part of that group. Bob Edwards went on to Fort Benning. He was in psychological warfare. In fact, he was involved with the subterfuge after I was injured.

My husband socked me in the breast, and I had to have surgery because he’d already broken my leg. And I was starting to document the violence. But I’m such an upfront person, and all I wanted him to say was, “I’m sorry Kay I did this.” But I was trying to do what they say Rosey Grier did. If you are battering your wife, you put a mirror up in front of yourself, or a photograph, and you try to imprint the lower brain. Because I wanted to save his soul. I mean, this guy had murdered his first wife, battered her to death, and dragged her body back. Sue had a cerebral hemorrhage. It’s too much for me to get into. And he was doing that to me. And I stopped him from drinking thinking that this would stop the battering. But I started taking notes, and taping things while he would go on these rages. Because I wanted somebody to know. I wanted somebody to help me, so I wouldn’t die. And I had had surgery. I had broken bones. And I was trying to reach out for some help. So I was trying to get him to realize what he was doing to me. And I said to him, “George, I know you did this to Sue. Do you really want me dead?” But he started getting scared. He was cool.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Did he ever admit to you that he was responsible for his first wife’s death?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. He admitted that they didn’t get along. He admitted that he didn’t love her. He admitted that he’d hurt her. He admitted that he dragged her body back after she supposedly collapsed at dinner. Now, this is a 200-pound woman. She is huge, because she’s not happy. She’s sleeping with her dog. She doesn’t sleep with her husband, because he’s too busy sleeping with other people. He doesn’t find her attractive. He’s sleeping with Nancy Earl. And she loves him, because he’s handsome. And what is she going to do? She never worked a day in her life. Her mother loves him. It’s like me. Who would believe you that a handsome wonderful guy [would batter you?] “Oh, but George is so nice.” This is what the wives go through. They know that it will be hard.

What George did is he had clout in the State Department. And they knew that I just loved showing people around. So he would plan something that I just had to do, and I would be hooked like a fish. And he got some dignitaries, parliamentarians from Panama. And of course we had to go to Richmond. So I had to stay overnight with them. And George didn’t want to go with me. And it just so happened that Bob Edwards, his Army Colonel friend, invited him to come up and meet with some of the guys at New Hope, Pennsylvania, or Bucks County, wherever it was.

Well, he had already been talking to Phil Holwager about the abuse, because I had gone in for surgery. And I thought it was very unusual that [Captain] Phil Holwager was there during the surgery, kind of holding George’s hand. It wasn’t for me. It was to make sure George didn’t fall apart. And to make sure I didn’t say anything to the doctor when I was under sodium pentothal. He was covering George’s ass, excuse my French. He was the Chaplain at Fleet Marine Force Atlantic. And he was the Chaplain for Sue’s funeral. He knew what George had done. And he runs around on his wife. He’s playing golf all the time. He and George were playing golf with this single woman. And I found out. And I said, “What are you all doing?” He’s the so-called “Chaplain.” And he went to school with Gary Hart. He was a classmate of Gary Hart at Yale, and a colleague of Pat Robertson’s. That’s not to say that Pat Robertson does that kind of thing. I don’t think he does. I’m sure he doesn’t. But they went to Yale.

So George was a violent man, and he started knowing that I was sort of going to do something. So he started doing certain things. Now I can see why, because of the violence. He wouldn’t have been able to use his .45 anymore if he’d been convicted of battering me. He would not have been able to use his pistol anymore, or carry it. So they wanted to make sure that he was protected. So the wife has got to go. The wife is way down the totem pole. And it doesn’t matter what wife. And that’s the reason why the Marine wives are so afraid. And they all talk cryptically. They even talk outside the house.

[Intelligence and Electronic Warfare Operations] This is interesting. It talks about sabotage, and subterfuge. This is the standard Army book that teaches men to lie, cheat, steal, and be peeping toms on women. Now if they don’t allow women in there, and they can peeping-tom all the wives they want, they don’t need movies, and pornography. And they go on all the TADs they want. They just take off, and don’t tell their wives where they are going. And they can lie. Because it’s all secret. They don’t have to tell their wives anything.


[Holds up T-Shirt] This is just a mild SEAL commando T-shirt:


[Pastor Strawcutter] That’s a T-shirt that a SEAL would wear?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. I played Nancy Drew, Miss Marple, and infiltrated the SEAL reunion this year. They spent a lot of money showing off. They were jumping out of helicopters. And they probably spent $100,000. I don’t know how much. But the Military was providing the funds for this little game on the beach at Fort Story. And then each one of the teams has T-shirts, that are all sexual.

[Pastor Strawcutter] The driving motivation for all this stuff is?

[Kay Griggs] Go for it! So I went to the party. I took my life in my hands. I called a couple of friends and said, “If I don’t come back, I’m at the SEAL party. And I’m going to pretend that I’m a SEAL wife. And I’m going to go to this drunken party.” And of course, I have an eagle on my car. They tried to get me to get rid of it. So I went in there, and 90% of the people there were men. They didn’t have wives at this party. There were a few wives, but they were all feeling very uncomfortable. So I sort of got in with some of the older SEALs.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Did your husband ever mention someone by the name of Lt. Col. Bo Gritz?

[Kay Griggs] No, but I know who he is. But he has a lot of Army friends. It’s not like he doesn’t know Bo Gritz. I’m sure that Bo Gritz is well-known to some of these guys. I believe he’s Army. I’m sure he’s not a Marine. I know he’s not a Marine. But he’s a guerrilla. He’s a commando. My husband was way above Bo Gritz’s level. My husband mentioned people like [Robert] McFarlane, and Krow [sp?]. Krow was his tennis buddy I think. [Alexander] Haig, [Henry] Kissinger and Victor [H.] Krulak. See, [Al] Gray is the control guy. Gray and [General] Joy. Joy is a big guy. But Joy lost his job at Morale Welfare Recreation, I believe, because I told – it wasn’t because of me that he lost his job, but they made him move on somewhere else. Because he was at Morale Welfare Recreation, which is kind of a money laundering thing. They run all the Officers’ Clubs, all the recreation. It’s all run by the Military, even though it’s supposedly not Military. And they give the good old boys these jobs. He was probably earning $200,000. The retirement for a Colonel, my husband, just the retirement salary, was $50,000-60,000. Then they give them these other jobs so their income is $200,000-$300,000. Now, that is not right. They all get swimming pools behind their houses.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Who is ever going to bite the hand that feeds that?

[Kay Griggs] Nobody. It’s dirty business. All of the Captains, and all of the Admirals, know this, and wink. It’s sick. It’s just really really really bad. This is taxpayer money, coming from hard-working people who are just wondering where the money is going to come from to pay their taxes. From mothers of children who are having to work two jobs to feed their three children. And they are spending $10 million on phallic-shaped weapons.

I went to the Army show just last week. I was up there. They had a hearing on Okinawan rapes. They call it ”A murder-rape-a-day, a crime-a-day,” by Marines in Okinawa. And I went up there. John Conyers had a hearing. And they also had the Army show, which I had gone to a couple of years before. And in the basement of this big hotel, they have these 200 or more vendors of weapons. Israel has a joint venture, IAI has a joint venture with TRW that does all the credit reports on Americans. They have the computers together. The Israelis stole the whole Inslaw system, and sold it back to the Justice Department. And there were murders over that. Mike Fuller knows about that. Mike Fuller was a former assassin who is talking, and they are after him, believe me. I met him through Sarah.

An odd informant named Michael Fuller predicted to Washington D.C. correspondent Sarah McClendon the day that Wilcher would die and die on that date he did. Fuller also claimed to me that he knew Danny Casolaro although no documentation supported his allegation.

-- Inslaw Update, by Virginia McCullough

[Pastor Strawcutter] What about this Victor Marchenko [sp?]?

[Kay Griggs] He is a typical example of the mercenary who is brought over from Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Romania -- the Eastern bloc countries -- who are actually KGB double agents. His family came over, and they weren’t even citizens. In other words, they bring over the young men. They work for five years, and then they become citizens. I’ve read his books. I wanted to meet the guy. He knows George. He knows who George is. I read two of his books to see if it’s what George said. If you read Marchenko’s book, you’ll see what my husband, the arrogance. “Well, sure we’re going to go into this embassy. We’re gonna put a whore with this person, and we’re going to spy on them, and what they are doing. And we’re going to steal that statue just for the hell of it.”

Now when you multiply every one of the teams, all the graduates, and think in terms of 100 men applying, and maybe 90 go through most of the training, but they don’t quite make it. And then they’ve got 400, 600 men who don’t make it. And then you multiply that over time. This gathering of SEALs that I went to, there were probably 1,000 guys there. Now they have to do a cold kill. Kill somebody. Murder somebody just to prove they can do it. Kill them like ducks.

[Pastor Strawcutter] The SEALs?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah, the SEALs.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So all thousand of these guys have killed somebody?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah, they’ve done a cold kill. It’s a graduation exercise.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Who would they kill?

[Kay Griggs] Oh, just somebody. Just anybody. Just go into a hotel, and whack off somebody. I was told for graduation exercises, the greatest thing they could do was to break into a General or Admiral’s wife’s house and steal some things, like personal items.

[Pastor Strawcutter] To prove you were good enough to get in and out?

[Kay Griggs] Oh yeah! My underwear disappeared, my lingerie. And the funny thing is -- I don’t know if it was Michael O’Boyle doing it -- because from 1991 to 1993, Michael O’Boyle was three miles away from my husband. He was at his graduation exercise. He was very close to my husband. And yet he was just down the road. And I started questioning my husband, “What is this about you and Michael?” Michael was there, and my husband never told me he was there. And he saw him all the time. And I’m looking back to when my teddies disappeared. But all this time, Michael -- he and his first wife had divorced, and that’s okay. But he had an affair with a woman and a child, a secretary. So he was having an affair with a woman, and Michael is both ways. But in order to get into the system, he sort of did it with my husband. He was my husband’s younger friend. And that started when he was in the Seventh Fleet under [Charles C.] Krulak and [General Louis H.] Buehl in Intelligence on the ship. But Michael, there he was at Little Creek, and my husband’s best friend. He never invited him over. But he saw him. So you can guess what that means.

The teams, the biological electronic warfare school -- see after my husband left FMFLand[sp?], he went to the Special Operations School which ran the teams, the foreigners, and everywhere.

[Pastor Strawcutter] The term MACSOG, what does that mean?

[Kay Griggs] It was kind of a code word for sending platoons to kill people in Vietnam. “SOG” is Special Operations Group. Special Operations SO, SS, OSS, Secret Service SS, Nazi Spetsnaz, the German Storm Troopers. If you know anything about the German High Command, it’s the Brotherhood. They are connected with Opus Dei, which is an Italian kind of business group, that works within the Vatican. And I’m told, and I like the Pope [John Paul II] -- I think he’s a wonderful guy -- but I’m told that he was involved with that during World War II.

[Pastor Strawcutter] I’ve heard that too.

[Kay Griggs] And that the guy who was the Pope before [John Paul I] was murdered, so that he could get in.

[Pastor Strawcutter] So I’m still curious about the SEALs and this murder thing. Now a SEAL, in order to complete his indoctrination for becoming a “full-fledged SEAL”, part of that includes the fact he has to have killed somebody?

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. SEAL Team 6. Right. The Red Team. The Getto[sp?] was the Captain of that team. And his wife and I had a wonderful conversation.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Would she confirm this as well?

[Kay Griggs] I guess so. She is scared. She is frightened. Most of these women are scared to death. Because they are warned. They know what happened to Sue Griggs.

[Pastor Strawcutter] But they support you philosophically in their hearts, at least, if not with their lips?

[Kay Griggs] Oh, yeah! We talk about it. Some of them have to go out of their house. Some of them won’t even talk in the office in which they work. They’ve had men come by their houses. They have had their papers stolen.

[Pastor Strawcutter] I mean, association with you could be the kiss of death.

[Kay Griggs] Yeah. Oh sure. And they know that. But we talk anyway. And you’re talking about some really brave women here. And when I talked to a couple of Colonels’ wives, before I went public, there were a couple of them talking to me, except for Carolyn Millice who turned on me just like that. She was the one whose house I was in when I told about the go-go dancers in the Officers’ Club, and me taking pictures, and thinking about writing a letter to the wives. And she said, “Oh, you can’t do that. You’ll ruin George’s career.” In other words, Carolyn has really bought into the system. She’s very pretty, and she’s very influential with the wives group. But she’ll turn on you in a second. And it really hurt me, because I kind of depended on her and Charlotte Moore.

But when I went public, when I started telling people what I knew little-bit-by-little-bit, just to get up my courage, and when I finally went to visit Sarah McClendon it was like, “You see! I told you!” Sarah McClendon called my house, and they told her it was a military base, and they said that the Griggs’ didn’t live there anymore. “Ha ha ha. See this paper!” Then I was totally shut off. But until that point, I went to see Peggy Sheehan. We had tea and food. And General [John J.] Sheehan was the head of NATO. And his wife Peggy said, and this was so strange, she said, “Just leave a note on your refrigerator for George.” In other words, “He’s coming in the house, they are coming in the house, and it will get to George.” This is SOP, standard operating procedure. “Just get used to it, get used to being battered.”

[Pastor Strawcutter] Well, she was a worshipper of the security of the position, the money, and everything. And “just don’t rock the boat, because this is the way it is.”

[Kay Griggs] Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Strawcutter] “And we don’t want it different.”

[Kay Griggs] No, no. “If you have to divorce your husband, then that’s just the way it is.” But it’s cold and calculating, and so un-American. I mean, I know what America is like, because everybody in my family were World War II. My brother was a briefer for the [inaudible] staff. He went on to be a medical doctor. Of course, he got out as soon as he could.

[Pastor Strawcutter] You know, people who love this country and love its history are just completely confused, from cab drivers to bartenders. Nobody can figure out why everything goes the wrong direction.

[Kay Griggs] Do you know what I say? When I started this, I thought it was like maybe a 2,000 piece puzzle. Now I know it’s like a puzzle for a two-year-old, or a one-year-old, with six pieces. It’s so easy to see. And everybody who talks to me sees it the same way. I’m sort of an interpreter. I kind of give a lot of the wives hope, and the guys too who are already out and scared. And they say, “Hey, this little woman, she’s a real feisty you-know-what. And I don’t know whether they’re going to kill her, or what they’re going to do.” And they say, “Aren’t you afraid?” And I say, “Yes.” I’ve had death threats. It’s been hell. But truth and light, and the hell these other women are going through, being put through hell because their husbands are cowards and bullies. I mean, they are people who dress up in black, who hide behind trees, who shoot people from behind, who break into houses and steal their papers. This is in the Constitution. You don’t break into someone’s home. You don’t steal their papers. You don’t try to destroy the core that God has given them when they were born. Mothers have sons. And their sons are 18 years old. And they are telling them, “Join the Marine Corps to be a man.” That’s not a man! It’s not a man who does this! It’s a pervert! That’s why they’re not joining up anymore. That’s why they are having trouble with retention. Because the mothers are finding out. McVeigh’s mother has talked. The Unabomber’s mother and brothers have talked. People like Colonel Ron Ray is talking. What’s the name of the new boy who refused to wear the U.N. uniform? Michael New. These are the heroes. Michael New is a MacArthur. Randy Aber is the future Patton. These are the leaders. These are the Americans. And there are a lot of them. There are hundreds of thousands of them.

And just like in the days of Jesus Christ, these modern-day Sadducees and Pharisees are saying, “Ha ha ha, we’re going to kill Jesus. We’re going to get rid of MacArthur. We’re going to get rid of Patton. We’re going to get rid of Michael New. We’re going to get rid of Colonel Sabow.” They murdered him. But this is physics. Every one, like Sue Griggs that was murdered, Sabow was murdered, the wives who are murdered, Ron Brown -- for every one that is murdered, there are a hundred who will spring up and say, “No, no, no. Now you got me to worry about.” This is why these guys have little places hidden all over the place, where they are training all the guys to say, “Oh, the American citizens are bad.” But the guys they are training are also going to wake up to what is going on.

It’s Caspar Weinberger. It’s Henry Kissinger. It’s Walt Whitman Rostow. It’s Eugene Debs Rostow. What’s going on here? These guys aren’t even born in America. What’s happening here? They are training mercenaries now to flip around and say, “we’ll kill on an order.” They’re not killing because people are breaking into their homes. They’re not killing because they are bad. They’re killing because they want to control this country. That’s what George told me: it’s political. The Military, the Marine Corps, is a political arm of a group that wants to run everything, and control the drugs and sell the weapons, keep the weapons flow going. And this isn’t what guys are going to sign up to do. Their hearts aren’t in it. They’re not even going to do it for the money. They’d rather die than have hit squads come after them, collection groups from the Great Lakes. They have a group of Marines who goes out and collects guys who have gone to their psychiatrists, and are talking a little too much. They get rid of them. But they’re not told why. They are just told that they are enemies who have done bad things, so they won’t have any guilt and culpability. They make it cold. “Just get rid of this guy.” “Okay.” Then they get a promotion, they get a new car, and get some stock.

After my husband did what he did in Beirut, I found these stubs. He got all this stock, like AT&T. Major stock, thousands of dollars worth of stock. And it was from a company that was like a quasi-government company. It was all on a sheet of paper. And of course, it was big-time stock. And that’s how he was paid off, with stock.

[Pastor Strawcutter] And paid off for?

[Kay Griggs] For doing criminal activities. Selling weapons illegally. Going through Tel Aviv and the Bank in Rome. The Israeli agents are the middlemen. And all of the money is going to Israel. This is the truth. Not just the money that is given to them free and clear, but also the criminal black budget money that Meyer Lansky’s group started back in the ‘40s, that has been growing and growing and growing. It’s like a pyramid scheme. And the Jesuits, I’ve been told, are really controlled by this group now.

[Pastor Strawcutter] Now surely Oliver North is a good guy.

[Kay Griggs] No! I think he was farmed. Because Olly was involved in Vietnam with the JAGs who were covering up a lot of the stuff that was going on. He was involved with a major case where there was a Marine – George told me this. George was involved with a lot of the cover-ups with Marines who went crazy.

Remember that movie, “A Few Good Men”? It was a movie about a Marine Colonel. Jack Nicholson played the colonel. Do you remember? George, my husband, was the Chief of Staff who tried to cover this up, the true story. My husband was the guy who was covering this up. They were so arrogant. And the woman who was the JAG who got this thing going [Lt. Deborah Sorkin?], it was not Navy JAG, because he was going to cover it up. He was just a loose kind of guy. And if he had been the JAG, then it wouldn’t have been prosecuted. But it was the woman who was working with him, it was the woman [Lt. Deborah Sorkin?] who got these other guys off. They were targeting these other guys [David Cox, Kevin Palermo, Ronald Peterson Jr., Brett Bentley, Dennis Snyder and Christopher Lee Valdez]. I mean, they would have put him in jail for just a little bit and then let him out. But the point is, this guy [David Cox] was murdered. And the Colonel [Col. Sam Adams?] laughed it off. It was down there in Guantanamo Bay. It was Al Gray. Just that one alone. And [Clayton J] Lonetree. They were involved with that. It’s just so sick.

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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:32 am


Interview with Eric Hufschmid
[Transcribed from the video by Tara Carreon]



Click here to see Kay Griggs on How the Government Works -- Little Movie, Part 1
Click here to see Kay Griggs on How the Government Works -- Little Movie, Part 2






[Colonel Griggs, Kay Griggs' husband, was a Marine Corps Chief of Staff, and head of NATO's Psychological Operations.]

"They get rid of the good guys. The Marine Corps are the assassins for the Mob. The military is run by the Mob. The military IS the Mob."


"They took with them the most perverted aspects of Nazi Germany and brought them over to the United States."

-- Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Eric: One reason that people dismiss the possibility that the September 11th attack was a government operation is that they cannot believe everybody in the U.S. Government would remain silent about such an incredible crime. A woman named Kay Griggs, the second wife of Marine Corp Colonel George Griggs, can help us understand why everybody is silent. Her information about the U.S. Government comes from her husband, her personal observations, her husband's diary, and people she met. Even if some of her information is incorrect, the top military and political leaders of America are routinely blackmailed, bribed, threatened, and manipulated. She mentions many government officials by name, so if her accusations are false, she is making a lot of slanderous remarks about a lot of people. For example:

Kay: I found my husband's diary, which I have here, which they have been not anxious to have get out.

Eric: Now, "they" meaning ...?

General John J. Sheehan, USMC (Retired)

General Charles C. Krulak, Commandant of the Marine Corps

General Alfred M. Gray (left), former Commandant U.S. Marine Corps

General Donald G. Cook (Retired Aug. 1, 2005)

Brigadier General James R. Joy (right), U.S. Marine Corps (Retired)

General Carl Stiner (Retired)


Kay: The -- uh -- well -- "they." General [John J.] Sheehan, General [Charles C.] Krulak, Generals Al Gray, [Donald G.] Cook, and especially General [James R.] Joy. General Jim Joy and General Carl Stiner are, they are evil men. And they are in this diary meeting with my husband almost every day in Beirut. They trained the Men in Black who killed those people in Waco.




Eric: Not only does she claim that Waco was a deliberate killing, but later in the interview, she says that the military knew that the Marine Corps barracks was going to be bombed in Beirut, Lebanon. That bombing occurred in 1983, and more than 200 marines died. The official story is that the bombing was a result of Arab terrorists. She doesn't explain why the military would allow hundreds of Marines to die, so we are left to wonder if the bombing was intended to give the Marines an excuse to get out of Lebanon, or if it was intended to create anger towards Arabs. As with the September 11th attack, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the killings at Waco, it is difficult to find a sensible motive. But perhaps Kay Griggs is correct that many top government officials are under the control of criminals and lunatics. She explains that one of the methods to control government officials is to pressure them into doing unusual sexual activities, which can then be used to blackmail them. She believes that some universities have special fraternities for this purpose. For example, Princeton University has a fraternity called Cap and Gown, which her husband belonged to. Yale University has a fraternity called Skull & Bones. Supposedly, President Bush and John Kerry were members of that fraternity. To most people, and some of its members, these fraternities are meaningless organizations. But she believes that some of them are used as recruitment centers for government officials.

Kay: George got into Cap and Gown which is the same kind of fraternity. I mean it's a eating club at Princeton for intelligence officers.

Eric: In Cap and Gown did they have anybody involved who wasn't intelligence oriented?




Kay: Football players, and so forth. But I have a feeling that Cap and Gown has a lot of intelligence officers and boys who may have been raped. Of course, they'd never talk about it. But I know that in the initiation they get very drunk, even in the Marine Corp they do that, it's called "Dining in." They have the "shellback" ceremony. They do a lot of homosexual enticement. The boys, when they come in, when they are new recruits, they strip them nude, they violate their personal parts, and a lot of that is going on even now.


Eric: What about "tailhook"? Is there a connection?

Kay: Yeah, sure! Because the "cream of the crop" is doing this. They are having group sex parties.

Eric: That was a Navy operation too, wasn't it?

Kay: Yeah.

Eric: She points out that "tailhook" has a double meaning.


Kay: You know what "tailhook" means, don't you?

Eric: No. What is tailhook?

Kay: Laughter.

Eric: Uh oh. I got a feeling. Is it a homosexual reference?

Kay: Yeah, sure.

Eric: Really?

Kay: Sure.

Eric: Did you know that, Steve? Isn't that something?

Kay: Yeah.


Eric: She accuses a Marine Corp General of being a "Cherry Marine."

Kay: What I want to tell you about General Al Gray, my husband was the chief of staff for General Al Gray who was the Commandant of the Marine Corp. And I probably shouldn't say this on the tape, and you all can get rid of it, but he's a homosexual. Gray is what they call a "Cherry Marine."

Eric: She then describes the initiation ceremonies in more detail, and notice that her husband is one of the sources of this information.

Eric: I mean, if this really got out that these guys are all inducted because they've got some kind of homosexual thing on them ...


Kay: Right, indoctrination or induction. They have to do that. They do that. In a coffin. And it's even now coming into the military totally. The chiefs do that. They put them in the coffin. They do the bowling ball trick.

Eric: Okay, you've got to explain this. What happens when you get in the coffin? Why do you get in a coffin?

Kay: Oh, when you get your eagles -- that's a German thing you know -- it's what the German high command did, and most of them had the boyfriends and stuff, the croups and all of that. It is a German thing that they say goes back to Greece. And it's all the male Marine looking men that they do it with, you see. So now the chiefs have to do that. What they do is they get -- George said it's like a zoo -- they get everybody really drunk, and they sometimes call it "dining in." "Shellback" is another time that they do it. Not everybody does it, but the ones who do it, if they're young, they get right up to the top.

Eric: Okay, what actually do they do? They've got a coffin, they get inside ...

Kay: Anal sex. Oh, that! They put them in the coffin and they do things.

Eric: Okay, they perform things on each other?

Kay: Yeah, yeah, while they're all around there going drunk and ...

Eric: Okay, I see, so there's a guy in the coffin ...

Kay: Yeah, and he's the one who is the ...

Eric: ... recipient of all the acts?

Kay: Right, right.

Eric: We can probably say to conclude that these are oral sex acts on this guy, or something like that.

Kay: Yeah, yeah. Oral and anal.

Eric: But what's the significance of the coffin?

Kay: I don't know.

Eric: Although she never explained what the bowling ball trick is, you should ask yourself, "Would a top military official or any other man tell his wife that he was pressured into joining these bizarre ceremonies if they were not true? Not every man in the military is enthusiastic about homosexual sex, so there are also orgies with women.

Kay: These orgies are going on all over the Mediterranean. The captains, the lieutenants, the men who rise to the top, are the ones who were picked to play the games, the pool parties, the nude pool parties. And they have secretaries who come in. I've talked to three guys, and of course my husband, who went to these parties. But what they do is, and this is General Al Gray who was the main prime mover, they would go to a place like Isle Rose where Charles Haddock, this teacher who inducted, got my husband into it, he retired in one of these all-male party houses on the Mediterranean. And my husband kept up with him all through the years.

Eric: And these sex parties and orgies, they're all homosexual in nature or is there some heterosexual ... ?

Kay: They start off with the wild secretaries. It's kind of, you know, my husband did those in Indonesia. He did them in a place in Northern Virginia with his first wife ...

Eric: She was told by military leaders and their wives that this is normal.

Eric: What percentage do you think of these higher up people are bisexual?

Kay: Oh, all of them! If they're in Special Operations, if they're Marines, they're all bisexual. They've all had to do it. In order to get to be a bird colonel, the Seals, it's kind of like the fast road to the top.

Eric: So a guy could not be a Seal without having gone through this?

Kay: Oh, I don't believe so. I haven't met one that I don't believe would have done it. And judging from what a couple of colonels told me, that's just the norm. "It's just you women, you know. You all are so sissy. You don't understand how it is. We're under so much pressure." And when Valerie Wilhelm told me that about Charlie, I just could not believe what she was saying.

Eric: Charlie Wilhelm would be ...

General Charles E. Wilhelm, Former Commander, U.S. Southern Command

Kay: He's a general now down in Miami. And she was just saying, "Oh, well, you know, he's running around -- he has to!," she said. "He's under so much pressure." And she was saying that -- of course I had met Charlie in Norway, and Charlie is someone my husband just sort of idolizes. And he and Michael Boyle is another one. Michael is my husband's "Special Friend."

Eric: After watching all eight hours of her interview, when I see a top government official, I find myself wondering, "Did this guy get his promotion because he joined in on the homosexual sex?


What about this guy?


Or him?


This one?


Do the Air Force generals do it also?


Kay Griggs implies that General Al Gray enjoys the homosexual sex. But I would expect some of the men to become fed up with it after a certain number of years. After all, how many times would you have to be pressured into homosexual acts before you refused to do it? Whoever has control of the U.S. Government has to deal with the men who become rebellious. Kay Griggs suspects that murder was used to keep her husband under control.

Kay: And you see, my husband is frightened to death. I believe that his brother was murdered to keep him in. Because he had gone through four years of this mind control. And the man who did it, and you can see it on the video, his name was Charles Haddock, and another man named Alexander Robinson.

Eric: She also suspects other men were murdered such as former CIA director William Colby. She also mentions the technique of condemning a person to a mental institutionm which almost happened to a person named Bob.

Kay: There were a couple of others: Paisley who was murdered almost like this other man. Paisley was murdered like William Colby. Paisley was also hanging around with other homosexuals. He went to the Rush River Lodge, and so did Bob Woodward, Bob Woodward the reporter. Henry Kissinger was a well-known, totally a homosexual. Not even both ways.

Eric: And so his wife is a marriage of cover or convenience?

Kay: Oh, it's just a convenience, yeah. I mean, maybe he's discovered women in his late age. I don't know. But I heard through a very well grounded German that Henry's best friend's father told Henry to stay away from him. And that's why Henry left. The family were embarrassed. And Henry went to Britain where they did this, and then changed his name from Heinz to Henry. And I interviewed a man named Bob, who's an army enlisted person, who told me about Henry in Cambodia. So up through Cambodia, he was actually raping young men. And of course, that experience destroyed the lives of these five young men, according to the source. I mean, he said, he was crying -- and this man was a perfectly wonderful functioning young married man who worked for a newspaper on the Eastern shore, and had three young children -- he went to Vietnam as an enlisted man, was put into Cambodia, which he said it was a lie living there, and then ran into Henry Kissinger. Or Henry Kissinger ran into him, and did certain things to him. Invited him into his tent with some other men. It was horrible. But he said, "It's wartime," and so forth. But he said, "You know, I could have taken it mentally if it had been a bunk-mate or something, but when it's someone like Henry Kissinger who does it to you, you're ruined." He said he came back home -- Oh! And this is interesting, and I really believe that Bob's right, he said Kissinger said to him, "If you ever tell anybody, if you ever mention to a soul, it's the end of you. Don't you ever tell anybody." Well, when Bob got back, he went to a special hospital, and they were going to keep him locked up forever. A lot of the other boys just ... my feeling is that he was flagged the way I was flagged when General Gray and Wilhelm had me flagged because I broke up the go-go dancing in the Officer's Club. I was labeled a troublemaker because I thought it was wrong for married men to be going out with topless go-go dancers in the Officer's Club Dining Room, and I took pictures of it. And my husband got really mad, and so forth.

Eric: How could it be that all top government officials are willing to allow this corruption, rape and blackmail? Kay Griggs says that people in control of the government are grooming emotionally weak boys for top government positions. She explains that this recruitment process starts while the boys are teenagers or younger.

Kay: They have little boys that they pick out and they call them "special." They use the word "special," meaning elite, irregular, in order to entice these boys because they don't have much ego ...

Eric: They look for boys who suffer from low self-esteem, poverty, and mental disorders. People who are not happy with themselves are easy to manipulate with praise. And children from poor families are more susceptible to promises of top government positions. She explains that some of these boys are put into all boys schools, and exposed to homosexual activities. She accuses a man named Charles Haddock of being one of the men who manipulated the young boys.

Kay: Charles Haddock was the bodyguard, quote unquote "teacher" for these guys. So they would go out and play in the woods. And they were doing homosexual things with them.

Eric: She investigated her husband's background and believes that these people were pushing him into homosexual activities.

Kay: I called all his roommates, at the Hun (sp?) School and at Princeton. They told me things about George, you know, holding hands with Haddock and other people, about being a cheerleader, and going off, and so forth.

Eric: "Cheerleader." This is kind of a trade name, right?

Kay: He was a cheerleader at Princeton. And he traveled with the football team. And here is a guy like that, they put him in the Marine Corp? I don't think that was very nice. Do you know what I'm saying? It was hard for him.

Eric: She believes that President Bill Clinton was also selected for this program of abuse and blackmail.

Eric: You know, as you describe this, I can't help but think of Bill Clinton.

Kay: Well, of course he was one of those profile boys. But the difference between Bill Clinton, and I'm not saying Bill Clinton's better, but Bill Clinton didn't know anything about the assassinations.

Eric: How would you feel if you had been put into an all boys school when you were a teenager, subjected to homosexual sex, and offered high level government jobs, and when you rebelled, your brother was murdered? Kay described her husband as drinking every day. He would often pass out on the floor, and even in the yard. Sometimes he would sit naked in his room. His attitude was often unpleasant, and he was sometimes very violent. You might think that a government official could hold a press conference and complain about the corruption, but unless he is given support by other government officials, and the American people, he will meet the same fate as the other people who resisted.

On page 149 of my book, "Painful Questions: An Analysis of the September 11th Attack," I have a section: "There is nobody to protect us." I wrote, "More amazing to me, we cannot even get support from the American citizens. Rather, most of them will insult us as being 'conspiracy nuts.' This situation reminds me of the child who ran away from Jeff Dahmer, went to the police for help, and the police handed him back to Dahmer. How is America going to improve when the majority of American citizens, including the police, FBI and military, have no desire to know what is going on in their nation, and have no desire to make the nation better?"

Kay: I think they're trying to destroy America.

Eric: Let's listen to more accusations before trying to understand who "they" are.

Kay: And keep in mind, my husband is infamous: Princeton graduate, Chief of Staff for Al Gray, who runs all the dirty tricks for the army. You know, Linda Tripp worked for Carl Stiner who was a partner of, you know, Jim Joy, Carl Stiner and my husband were the triumvirate in Beirut, and Linda Tripp worked for Carl Stiner down there.

Eric: Okay, this would be approximately ...?

Kay: I think in the 80's. See, she and her husband were both Delta Force duos. They send them, and then they divorced, so that broke up that. But she's a dirty tricks person, Linda.

Eric: She believes that Linda Tripp was helping to set President Clinton up for blackmail. She also claims that the U.S. military was manipulated during the 1991 Iraqi war for purposes of selling weapons, smuggling drugs, and laundering money.

Kay: It's kind of like Monica and Bill. I think they put Monica in there to have something on Bill. That's my own feeling. Sarah McClendon feels the same way.

Eric: And Linda Tripp was there to guide the situation?

Kay: Absolutely. Of course. Linda Tripp was Delta Force. Linda Tripp was trained by Carl Stiner, who's in the diary with my husband. Carl Stiner is called a "Snake." And he tried to trip up Schwarzkopf. I mean, he was trying to take the whole Iraqi thing over because they had been baiting, you know, using the Israeli rogues in Turkey. They were having little zig-zag wars. It's all to sell weapons. It's all about weapon sales. It's all about drugs. It's all about funny money.

Eric: Most people assume that the U.S. military wanted the Vietnam war. But she claims that the military was pushed into Vietnam by the same people who were behind the bombing of Dresden during World War II. She supports the accusation that the American military was fooled into bombing Dresden simply to slaughter the German civilians. She also supports the accusation in Michael Piper's book, "Final Judgment," that some Israelis were the masterminds of the President Kennedy assassination.

Walt Whitman Rostow

President Johnson with Walt Whitman Rostow

Kay: You didn't used to kill women and children in war, you know, when the British army were pure, kind of. You know, you didn't go out and kill. I think at Dresden they did do some of that, but that was Walt Whitman Rostow and his crowd. And he's a very dangerous man. Because Walt Whitman Rostow is a Communist.

Eric: Okay, in what capacity is he?

July 29, 1989: Ronald Reagan with traveling companion retired U.S. Marine Lt. General Victor Krulak (in the yellow shirt)

Kay: Oh, he was one of the wise men in Kennedy's administration. I think he was probably responsible for the movement that got Kennedy murdered. I believe it was an Israeli group which did it, with some of these rogues. Walt Whitman Rostow was the one who got us into the Vietnam war because he wanted to sell the weapons and stuff. He and Victor Krulak who is the present Commandant's father, Krulak was his lackey. Walt Whitman Rostow went with General Taylor and wrote the report that got us into the Vietnam war. And all the time that the Pentagon was saying, "No, no, no, no," he was a cheerleader for the weapon sales. He and Henry Kissinger. He and Henry. Walt Whitman Rostow, [1] Eugene Debs Rostow, [2] these were Communists, names for Communists. Eugene Debs Rostow, and, it's either his son or his other brother, runs the big Boston mob, the Port there. His name is Nicholas Rostow.

Eric: She claims that the war in Bosnia was also manipulated by these people, and that the CIA is not as important as we assume it is. She believes that most of the secret operations are coming from a group of criminals working within our military and NATO. Sometimes she refers to them as "The Joint."

Kay: The war in Bosnia is simply a stage to train assassins, to be a market for brand new weapons, and to be a marketplace so the drug money can be used. And the Army runs the whole show. It's totally run by the Army. The CIA is a bogus thing, you know. It's training in doctrine command, it's NATO, it's SHAPE: Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, started by Eisenhower. It's a totally independent corporation. It's main function is to sell weapons and launder money.


Eric: You're talking about the CIA?

Kay: No, I'm talking about SHAPE. The CIA is kind of bogus. It's just there. [3]

Eric: That's just a trade name for the media to use.

Kay: It's just to confuse us, to get us off the track. It's all being done by Army people who are now Joint.

Eric: She describes "The Joint" as being in New York, and that it acts as a funding organization for their criminal activities.

Kay: The funding organization, one of the funding organizations, was out of New York, and it was called "The Joint." And Meyer Lansky -- see, our Mob, the organized crime, the Jewish Kabbalhist group ...

Eric: Unlike the gangsters of Al Capone's era, Meyer Lansky and his friends can manipulate entire nations rather than just a few cities. In this next segment, she mentions that one of the operations that "The Joint" was funding, was the illegal immigration of Nazis into America. Since she describes "The Joint" as being Jewish, your first thought might be to assume they were helping Jews escape Nazi Germany. However, what she describes may be what other people refer to as Operation Paperclip, although she does not use that expression. She is going to mention that many of these Nazis had "The German Disease." And she refers to them as "The Pink Triangle Boys." She is referring to homosexuality and sex with children. The Nazi party had the same problem that the Republican party suffers from. Specifically, there are a lot of accusations that many top Nazi and Republican leaders are homosexual, that some are raping children on a regular basis, and that some are covering up the slave trade. In Nazi Germany, some of the rapists and homosexuals were arrested and put into prison camps, and pink triangles were put on their uniforms to identify them from the other prisoners. She believes that thousands of these Pink Triangle Boys were brought to America at the end of World War II. She also claims that the Nazi Government was brought down by the German people when reports about the raping of children started spreading through the population. This seems to be happening right now with the Bush Administration. The Jeff Gannon incident seems to be forcing a lot of people to face the possibility that many top government officials are not what they claim to be.

The Pink Triangle Boys

Jeff Gannon, Homosexual Prostitution

Kay: This funding group in New York, they would pay for passports which were illegal. In fact, my grandfather was involved with that. That's how I know so much about it, because my grandfather was told to keep silent and not tell anybody. And of course he told my grandmother, and my grandmother told me, and I've told my children. Everybody knows they brought in probably more than 200,000 Nazi soldiers, and SS, and you know, whacko scientists and psychologists. And all of them, most of them, had "The German Disease." You know, because it was their culture.

Eric: The German Disease?

Kay: Yeah, "The German Disease" is what the Pink Triangle Boys were. Colonel Ron Ray writes about this. He's a Marine Colonel who's a Christian who's writing about the "Cherry Marines," about homosexuality, and the group sex orgies, and so forth, which brought down the German government. Because Naples, which is where all of the Navy is doing their playing, I mean today, in Naples, these orgies are going on. It was where Krupp, [4] the weapons manufacturer, used to take the German High Command, and they would go onto the Isle of Capri into the Blue Grotto. And they would have big orchestras, and they'd bring in little boys, little Italian boys, who would be raped. They'd give them trinkets. And of course the mothers gradually found out, and just like me, it was one thing when there was just one of me, now there a lot more of us wives who are talking and telling truth. And those Italian women went to newspapers in Italy. They wouldn't listen. But when they went to the wives of these guys in Germany, it brought it all out. It brought the German government down, because they were duplicitous in it. But what they were doing was pedophilia. They were raping, bringing in little boys. They involve the Catholic Priests, you know, who were bringing in ... Anyway, but what happened was this whole group came over to the United States. And it's an old culture. But it's the reason there are a lot of things going on with children these days. And it explains why it's all being covered up. Because if you've got police officers who are playing these games, and they're going into the woods, like what is that place where, I mean, even Eisenhower played these games, even Mike Kemp out at it's called "The Hermitage" in California, where they all get drunk and they run around nude in the woods and stuff.

Eric: The Hermitage? Bohemian Grove?

Kay: That's it! Bohemian Grove.

Eric: Rather than Hermitage?

Kay: Bohemian Grove. That's the name of it. My brain's tired. And there was a big one in Washington called Rush River Lodge where they used to all go. And there are lots of places now, but the problem, as I see it, is that I think they are trying to destroy America.

Eric: She also accuses Caspar Weinberger of being part of this group of criminals.


Kay: They are selling weapons! I mean, that is what the military is doing. It's totally controlled by the Mob. Look at this. Weinberger was General Douglas MacArthur's -- he spied on MacArthur in Korea. Who was MacArthur's nemesis, albatross? It was none other than little old intelligence "I'm-going-to-tell-every-move-you-make" Weinberger. Young. But he did it. He brought down MacArthur. Every move MacArthur was going to make, he broadcast it through the Chaplain, his little intelligence network. And he got brownie points with the group because he brought down the big lion. When you bring down a big lion like that, you get a big job. You've done good work. And they needed to get rid of MacArthur because he didn't want to keep the wars going. He wanted it over and, you know, it's like General Truffey (sp?) who took over after the Vietnam War was over. And he was on C-Span in August 1996 with former Ambassador Whitehead, and a few of the other State Department Vietnam people, and General Truffey had been holding these things in for years. He was on C Span. This man let it all out. He said, "I took over at the end of the Vietnam War. I was in control, right? Big general in charge. So I say, 'Cut off the shipment of weapons.' So I tell the Pentagon, 'Cut off the shipment of weapons.' " He said, "I got a phone call from Henry Kissinger saying, 'The weapons are going to continue at the wartime rate.'

Eric: Just when you think you've heard the strangest accusation possible, she comes up with another one that's even more difficult to believe. For example, she claims that some Communist dictators were also put through the homosexual mind control procedure by these criminals.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:50 am




Kay: Because already the Communist agents, the New York, Brooklyn, New Jersey Mob, were already training Mao. Mao was trained in Paris. So was, you know, the one in Cambodia. What's his name? I can't think of his name. The one who was Pol Pot. They were homosexually -- bless their little hearts -- by priests. They were wonderful little boys, sent there, you know, "turned," which is the word when they believe their mothers, and then all of a sudden the world's horrible, and they have these wonderful friends who are going to make them leaders. They are turned, psychologically, and it's a pattern. And so this is why it's so important to know what they are doing to innocent little boys in the Army and the Marine Corps today.

Eric: In her eight hours of interview, she lets out a lot of accusations. And she accuses a lot of high ranking government officials of a lot of serious crimes. She does not show any signs of hesitation or fear except when asked one particular question. In this next segment, she is explaining that both her uncle and her husband were involved in secret weapons sales to a certain country for "The Joint." Which country? And who is "The Joint"? This is the only issue that she hesitates to talk about. However, after saying the "Z" word, she returns to normal and resumes her accusations of murder, corruption and sexual perversion.

Kay: You know, selling weapons to whatever country. I know the country, but in other words, they were doing work for "The Joint" under the table all these years.

Eric: Okay, and directly under whose instructions to sell these weapons? Do you know that?

Kay: Yeah.

Eric: Okay, who would that be?

Kay: Well, it's an Israeli Zionist group in New York.

Eric: Mossad?

Kay: Well, yeah, but everybody thinks Mossad like they think CIA. CIA is just sort of a bogus kind of thing. It's really Army Intelligence that does just about everything. They run a lot of the psychological profiling which is done at Quantico with the FBI. It's all a very small group. Harvard professors connected with Tavistock, Darisalom (sp?), and there's a sexual perversion group in Vienna, and one in Colorado. I think that little girl was part of that experiment, you know who ...

Eric: Jon Benet?

Kay: Yeah.

Eric: Well, that raises an interesting point because here is a high profile murder that goes nowhere. No investigation. Nobody's pinned. It just goes on and on and on.

Kay: The parents are involved in that program.

Eric: But someone higher up is protecting them.

Kay: Absolutely.

Eric: And it's the same thing that you're describing about the military.

Kay: Sure.

Eric: If you're in the clique, you can get away with murder.

Kay: Yeah, absolutely. Murder. Literally murder.

T. Parker Host, Inc., Ship Agents and Brokers

Eric: As many women do, she would introduce people to one another to help them find friends. She helped both her husband and one of her friends from school meet a man named T. Parker Host. She later decided that Parker Host was connected with organized crime. However, her friend from school married him anyway.


Kay: This is his wife Ann. And I introduced him to her.

Eric: Good work.

Kay: She's my school friend, you know.

Eric: Is she still married to him?

Kay: Yeah. I mean he's loaded. She wants a lot of money. Her uncle is one of the guys who went to the moon. Collins.

Eric: She mentions that her friend is related to Michael Collins, who went to the moon on Apollo 11. If you believe that NASA sent people to the moon, take a look at my Science Challenge at my website. Six groups of astronauts were sent to the moon, but not one of them saw stars. NASA claims that stars cannot be seen on the moon because the sun is too bright. A video called "A Funny thing happened on the way to the moon," shows the portion of the press conference where the astronauts were asked about the stars. Neal Armstrong answers, and afterwards Michael Collins makes a remark that he does not remember seeing any stars. Michael Collins was in the command module circling the moon, while the other two astronauts were on the surface of the moon.

Q. When you looked up at the sky, could you actually see the stars and the solar corona in spite of the glare?



Neal Armstrong: We were never able to see stars from the lunar surface or on the daylight side of the moon by eye without looking through the optics. I don't recall during the period of time that we were photographing the solar corona what stars we could see.

Michael Collins: I don't remember seeing any.

Eric: Collins wants us to believe that during his entire trip to and from the moon, he never bothered to look out the window. These three astronauts just accomplished the most incredible achievement the human race has ever made. But notice how sad, nervous and worried they look?



Why would NASA fake a moon landing? Perhaps, as Kay Griggs says, "I think they're trying to destroy America." A fake moon landing can destroy morale among scientists, and make America look like a nation of idiots. The news reporters also seem to be controlled by these criminals and their Pink Triangle boyfriends. News reports about child sex and homosexuality among government officials are quickly suppressed. For example, do you remember when Colin Powell discussed the issue of sex slaves? "We're talking about women and girls as young as 6 years old trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation." Not many people know about this issue because the television news reporters prefer to talk about Michael Jackson and Terry Schiavo. A hundred years ago, Al Capone and other gangsters were manipulating city governments. Today, the criminals are manipulating entire nations. Most people's reaction is to complain about the criminals. However, the criminals are not the problem. As I wrote on page 150 of my book, "A nation that has an incompetent government is vulnerable to abuse from both its own citizens and from foreign nations." Complaining about corruption will not make the world better. Instead, we should be discussing the issue of how to provide ourselves with better governments.


[1] Walt Whitman Rostow, by

Walt Whitman Rostow (also known as Walt Rostow or W.W. Rostow) (1916-2003) was an American economist and political thinker prominent for his staunch opposition to Communism and belief in the efficacy of capitalism and free enterprise. Rostow served as an adviser on national security affairs under John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson administrations. He supported American military involvement in the Vietnam war, believing it possible and desirable to halt the advance of Communism by force if needed. In his later years he taught at Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas in Austin. He wrote extensively in defense of free enterprise economics, particularly in developing nations.

Walt Rostow was born in City of New York in a Russian immigrant family. His name is a reference to Walt Whitman, an American poet. Rostow attended Yale University, graduating at age 19 and completing Ph.D. dissertation in 1940. He also won the prestigious Rhodes Scholarship to study at University of Oxford. After completing his education he started teaching economics at Columbia University.

During World War II he served in the OSS under William Donovan. Rostow became Assistant Chief of the German-Austrian Economic Division in the United States State Department in Washington D.C. immediately after the war. From 1946 to 1947, he returned to Oxford to teach as the Harmsworth Professor of American History. Rostow became the Assistant to the Executive Secretary of the Economic Commission for Europe, in 1947 and was involved in the development of the Marshall Plan. He spent a year in 1949 at Cambridge University as the Pitt Professor of American History. Rostow was Professor of Economic History at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology from 1950 to 1961 and a staff member of the Center for International Studies, MIT from 1951 to 1961. In 1958, he became a speech writer for President Dwight Eisenhower.

In 1961, President John F. Kennedy appointed Rostow Deputy Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs reporting to McGeorge Bundy. Late in 1961, he was then appointed as counselor of the Department of State and Chairman of the Policy Planning Council, Department of State. Rostow wrote President Johnson's first state of the union speech and was appointed by Johnson in May 1964 United States Member of the Inter-American Committee on the Alliance for Progress (CIAP).

In early 1966, he was named special Assistant for National Security Affairs (the post now known as National Security Advisor) where he was a main figure in developing the government's policy in the Vietnam War, and where he remained until February 1969. His pro-war and pro-free-enterprise views made him highly unpopular in the social sciences sector of the American academia that was staunchly left wing at the time. However, he was able to get an academic position at Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas in Austin the Rex G. Baker, Jr. Professor Emeritus of Political Economy. He continued to teach history and economics until his death in 2003 at the age of 86.

Rostow developed the Rostovian take-off model of economic growth, one of the major historical models of economic growth. The model argues that economic modernization occurs in five basic stages of varying length - traditional society, preconditions for take-off, take-off, drive to maturity, and high mass consumption. He received the Order of the British Empire (1945), the Legion of Merit (1945), and the Presidential Medal of Freedom (1969).


Walt Whitman and homosexuality, by Wikipedia:

Walt Whitman, 1884.

Another topic intertwined with Whitman's life and poetry is that of homosexuality and homoeroticism, ranging from his admiration for 19th-century ideals of male friendship to outright masturbatory descriptions of the male body ("Song of Myself"). This is in contradiction to the outrage Whitman displayed when confronted about these messages in public, praising chastity and denouncing onanism. He also long claimed to have a black female paramour in New Orleans, and six illegitimate children. Modern scholarly opinion believes these poems reflected Whitman's true feelings towards his sexuality, but he tried to cover up his feelings in a homophobic culture. In "Once I Pass'd Through A Populous City" he changed the sex of the beloved from male to female prior to publication.

During the American Civil War, the intense comradeship (which often turned sexual) at the front lines in Virginia, which were visited by Whitman in his capacity as a nurse, fueled his ideas about the convergence of homosexuality and democracy. In "Democratic Vistas", he begins to discriminate between amative (i.e., heterosexual) and adhesive (i.e., homosexual) love, and identifies the latter as the key to forming the community without which democracy is incomplete:

It is to the development, identification, and general prevalence of that fervid comradeship (the adhesive love, at least rivaling the amative love hitherto possessing imaginative literature, if not going beyond it), that I look for the counterbalance and offset of our materialistic and vulgar American democracy, and for the spiritualization thereof.
In the 1970s, the gay liberation movement made Whitman one of their poster children, citing the homosexual content and comparing him to Jean Genet for his love of young working-class men ("We Two Boys Together Clinging"). In particular the "Calamus" poems, written after a failed and very likely homosexual relationship, contain passages that were interpreted to represent the coming out of a gay man. The name of the poems alone would have sufficed to convey homosexual connotations to the ones in the know at the time, since the calamus plant is associated with Kalamos, a god in antique mythology who was transformed with grief by the death of his lover, the male youth Karpos. In addition, the calamus plant's central characteristic is a prominent central vein that is phallic in appearance.

Whitman's romantic and sexual attraction towards other men is not disputed. However, whether or not Whitman had sexual relationships with men has been the subject of some critical disagreement. The best evidence is a pair of third-hand accounts attributed to fellow poets George Sylvester Viereck and Edward Carpenter, neither of whom entrusted those accounts to print themselves. Though scholars in the field have increasingly supported the view of Whitman as actively homosexual, this aspect of his personality is still sometimes omitted when his works are presented in educational settings.

[2] Eugene Victor Debs, by Wikipedia

Eugene Victor Debs from a pamphlet during his 1912 presidential candidacy
Born November 5, 1855 Terre Haute, Indiana
Died October 20, 1926 Elmhurst, Illinois

Eugene Victor Debs (November 5, 1855 – October 20, 1926) was an American labor and political leader and five-time Socialist Party of America candidate for President of the United States

Rise to prominence

Debs was born in Terre Haute, Indiana (where he lived most of his life), to middle-class immigrant parents, from Colmar, Alsace. At the age of fourteen, he left home to work on the railroads, becoming a fireman. He returned home in 1874 to work as a grocery clerk, and the next year was a founding member of a new lodge of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. He rose quickly in the Brotherhood, becoming first an assistant editor for their magazine and then the editor and Grand Secretary (in 1880). At the same time, he became a prominent figure in the community and was elected to the Indiana state legislature (as a Democrat).

The railroad brotherhoods were comparatively conservative unions, more focused on providing fellowship and services than in collective bargaining. Debs gradually became convinced of the need for a more unified and confrontational approach. After stepping down as Grand Secretary, he organized, in 1893, the first industrial union in the United States, the American Railway Union (ARU). The Union successfully struck the Great Northern Railway in April 1894, with most of its demands met.

Pullman Strike

National Guard fires on Pullman strikers, from Harper's Weekly (1894)

He was jailed later that year for his part in the Pullman Strike, which grew out of a strike by the workers who made Pullman's cars and who appealed to the ARU at its convention in Chicago, Illinois for support. Debs tried to persuade the ARU members who worked on the railways that the boycott was too risky, given the hostility of both the railways and the federal government, the weakness of the ARU, and the possibility that other unions would break the strike. The membership ignored his warnings and refused to handle Pullman cars or any other railroad cars attached to them.

The federal government did, in fact, intervene, obtaining an injunction against the strike on the theory that the strikers had obstructed the railways by refusing to show up for work, then sending in the United States Army on the grounds that the strike was hindering the delivery of the mail. That provoked a violent reaction from strikers in what had otherwise been a relatively peaceful strike. The strike was broken and the ARU destroyed.

Socialist leader

Campaign poster from his 1912 Presidential campaign. Debs was a frequent Socialist candidate for President in the early 1900s

The experience radicalized Debs still further. He was a candidate for President of the United States in 1900 as a member of the Social Democratic Party. He was later the Socialist Party of America candidate for President in 1904, 1908, 1912, and 1920, the final time from prison.

Debs was, however, largely dismissive of the electoral process: he distrusted the political bargains that Victor Berger and other "sewer socialists" had made in winning local offices and put much more value on the organization of workers, particularly on industrial lines. Yet Debs was equally uncomfortable with the apolitical syndicalism of some within the Industrial Workers of the World. While he was an early supporter of the IWW, he was later appalled by what he considered the IWW's irresponsible advocacy of direct action, especially sabotage.

Although Debs criticized the apolitical "pure and simple unionism" of the railroad brotherhoods and the craft unions within the American Federation of Labor, he practiced a form of pure and simple socialism that underestimated the lasting power of racism, which he viewed as an aspect of capitalist exploitation. As Debs wrote in 1903, the party had "nothing specific to offer the negro, and we cannot make special appeals to all the races. The Socialist party is the party of the working class, regardless of color—the whole working class of the whole world". Yet Debs was more advanced on this issue than many others in the Socialist Party: he denounced racism throughout his years as a socialist, refusing to address segregated audiences in the South and condemning D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation".

Debs was a charismatic speaker who called on the vocabulary of Christianity and much of the oratorical style of evangelism—even though he was generally disdainful of organized religion. As Heywood Broun noted in his eulogy for Debs, quoting a fellow Socialist: "That old man with the burning eyes actually believes that there can be such a thing as the brotherhood of man. And that's not the funniest part of it. As long as he's around I believe it myself."

Debs himself was not wholly comfortable with his prowess as a speaker. As he told an audience in Utah in 1910:

I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I lead you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition.

Return to prison

Debs giving his speech at Canton

On June 16, 1918 Debs made an anti-war speech in Canton, Ohio, protesting World War I, and was arrested under the Sedition Act of 1918. He was convicted and sentenced to serve ten years in prison and disenfranchised for life, losing his citizenship.

Debs made his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing:

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."

Debs appealed his conviction all the way to the United States Supreme Court. In its ruling on Debs v. United States, the Court examined several statements Debs had made regarding WWI. While Debs had carefully guarded his speeches in an attempt to comply with the Espionage Act, the Court found he still had the intention and effect of obstructing the draft and recruitment for the war. Among other things, the Court cited Debs's praise for those imprisoned for obstructing the draft. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes stated in his opinion that little attention was needed since Debs' case was essentially the same as that of Schenck v. United States, where the Court upheld a similar conviction.

Debs in the Atlanta Penitentiary

He went to prison on April 13, 1919. While in prison in Atlanta, Georgia, he ran for president in the 1920 election. He received 913,664 votes (3.4%), the most ever for a Socialist Party presidential candidate in the U.S. and slightly more than he had won in 1912, when he obtained six percent of the vote. This stint in prison also inspired Debs to write a column deeply critical of the prison system, which appeared in sanitized form in the Bell Syndicate and was collected into his only book, Walls and Bars, with several added chapters (published posthumously).

On December 25, 1921, President Warren G. Harding released Debs from prison, commuting his sentence to time served. Debs, however, never recovered his health from that time in prison and died 5 years later at the age of 70 in Elmhurst, Illinois.

In 1976 Debs's citizenship was restored posthumously.

[3] "The Trail of the Octopus," by Donald Goddard with Lester Coleman:

"The octopus had had him in its sights for so long that the security vetting should have been a formality, but a month went by without a word. And that was the first thing Coleman learned about the Defense Intelligence Agency: it never knowingly took chances. It would sooner not employ him than take an unnecessary risk, said McCloskey. He had known them junk a whole operation that had taken hundreds of people months to put together just because there was an outside chance that if anything went wrong the DIA might break cover.

McCloskey was unperturbed by the delay. This wasn't the CIA, he said. The CIA was a showboat civilian agency. These were the professionals, the military, the combined intelligence arms of the United States Army, the United States Navy and the United States Air Force. Together, they formed the largest and most discreet intelligence agency in the world; 57,000 people operating out of Arlington Hall, Virginia, and Bolling Airforce Base, Washington, D.C., on a budget five times bigger than the CIA's. No restrictions, no oversight -- and nobody even heard of it. Why? Because it didn't make mistakes. And because the director reported to the joint chiefs of staff, who didn't tell anybody anything they didn't have to know. And that included the Secretary of Defense.

But wasn't that dangerous? asked Coleman. To have a covert agency that big and powerful, and not directly accountable to anyone? Not even to the President of the United States? Their commander in chief?

The White House leaked like a colander, McCloskey said. It was full of politicians, and politicians came and went. Same thing with Congress. The military had never trusted politicians. It didn't trust civilians. Period. The military was America's backbone, its power and its honor. It didn't take sides. It didn't have to make promises it couldn't keep or gamble with the national interest to get elected. You could count on the military to see things straight, to see things through and to do things right. The DIA was only dangerous to the nation's enemies.

But where did the CIA fit in? And the National Security Agency? Didn't the DIA have to share these responsibilities?

The National Security Agency took care of the electronic and satellite stuff, McCloskey replied. And all that was filtered through the DIA before it went to Langley. The NSA did an important, technical job. As for the CIA, its main use as far as the military was concerned was as cover, as a front operation. While Congress, the media and the whole world watched the CIA, America's real spy shop could get on with its work the way it was supposed to -- in secret. Everybody knew about the CIA. It was good for a scandal a year at least because it leaked from top to bottom. It was a public agency, pinned down by White House directives and Congressional committees. It's director was a public figure. Everybody knew about William Colby, Richard Helms, George Bush, William Casey, William Webster, Robert Gates -- but who even knew the name of the DIA director?

'Not me,' said Coleman.

'Damn right,' said McCloskey. 'Not that I guess you'll ever get to meet him anyhow. Or even see the inside of Arlington Hall, come to that. The only DIA personnel you're ever likely to meet will be your handler and maybe a couple of agents you'll work with. (And he was right. It was only after the DIA froze him out that Coleman finally learned that the name of his boss, the agency's director of operations, was Lt General James Kappler.)"


"America Betrayed," by Rhawn Joseph, Ph.D.


In 1974, there were only the grossest hints as to the CIA’s involvement in assassinations, torture, mind-control experiments, and the manipulation of the media. It was to be the job of Rockefeller, as well as Rumsfeld and Cheney, to cover all tracks and to stop any House or Senate investigation, or at least throw it off the track (15).

Despite the efforts of the Ford-Rockefeller White House, the Senate and House each established their own Select Committee on Intelligence Activities, chaired by Frank Church and Otis Pike (respectively). Rockefeller, with the assistance of Kissinger, Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney, began obstructing Senate and House inquiries, particularly those which in any way concerned the training and employment of CIA assassination teams (10,15,19) or terrorist attack squads, such as Operation Gladio.

The Pike Committee finally issued a contempt of Congress citation against Henry Kissinger for his refusal to provide documentation of covert operations. Kissinger, Rockefeller et al., thumbed their noses at Pike.

The coverup effort was a partial success. For example, there is only a brief mention of “Operation Stay Behind” within the Church reports (Pike’s report being suppressed). Operation Stay Behind was a CIA terrorist operation aimed at the citizens and politicians of European countries and their democratically elected leaders (20).

According to the 1976 Senate report on the CIA by the Church Committee, this program was first conceived by the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, was staffed and funded by the CIA, and put into operation in 1948 by the National Security Council.

Essentially, the CIA was using Nazis, Neo-Nazis, SS-officers, and CIA-trained terrorists to indiscriminately murder European men, women and children, and to assassinate or otherwise remove or eliminate communist, socialist, and left-wing politicians.

In Italy, this program was referred to as “Operation Gladio (which means “sword”). In Austria it was named “Schwert” (“sword”). In France it was called “Glaive” (“sword”). It was called “Operation Sheepskin” in Greece. “Sveaborg” in Sweden. In Belgium, Operation Stay Behind had the name: “SDR-8.” Likewise in Switzerland it was given an alpha-numerical name: “P26.” Regardless of country, Operation Stay Behind was run by the CIA and British Intelligence under the umbrella of NATO, and involved the use of snipers, police officers, and paramilitary units to kill people at random and to conduct brutal raids on supermarkets, theaters, and other public places (21-28). In one series of attacks, in Brussels in the mid 1980’s, 28 people were murdered while shopping at local supermarkets. Again, the purpose of these attacks was to strengthen the hand of right-wing governments and to prevent left-wing governments or politicians from coming to power.

It was the duty of Bush, Kissinger, Rockefeller, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, to try to cover up these crimes. Indeed Rumsfeld (the Secretary of Defense when the U.S. was attacked on 9/11) had served as U.S. Ambassador to NATO in Brussels, Belgium in 1973 and 1974—when some of the worst atrocities were taking place— and thus had a special personal interest in preventing any damaging disclosures.


“The Americans had gone beyond the infiltration and monitoring of extremist groups to instigating acts of violence.” -- General Gianadelio Maletti, Director of Italian Counter-Intelligence 1971- 1975.

Operation Sword (“Gladio/Schwert/Glaive, etc.”) was an outgrowth of Dulles’ “Operation Stay Behind.” Initially, this program served to recruit high ranking Nazis and SS Gestapo agents into the OSS and the CIA after the close of WWII. By 1952, Dulles and his CIA had created a secret guerrilla terrorist army whose primary mission was terrorism and assassination—often of random targets who might be murdered by snipers, as they shopped or walked down the street. Dulles believed that through random acts of terror, left-wing governments could be overthrown, or prevented from ever coming to power if the blame for those terrorist acts could be placed on leftists (20). Right wing governments are always the beneficiaries of terrorism.

Operation Sword was first put into operation in Italy, in 1947. Italian citizens were gunned down by snipers, trains were derailed, and buildings and planes were blown up by CIA-Nazi agents, and then blamed on “communists.” The purpose of this terrorist campaign was to prevent a communist electoral victory in the 1947 Italian elections. This CIA orchestrated terrorist campaign was a success (21).

These and other acts of random terror (Operation Stay Behind), although directed by the CIA (in conjunction with British Intelligence) were administered under the protective umbrella of the Clandestine Coordinating Committee at the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe “SHAPE” (22). SHAPE would later became the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

Although these CIA-terrorist cells were spread all over Europe, the training bases were located in Germany, Italy and France. Likewise, these terrorist operations were directed and funded by CIA agents working in the US Embassies in Rome, Paris, and Berlin. These same CIA agents not only controlled these terrorists cells, but had infiltrated and often directed the Intelligence services of these and other countries (23).


Hitler's Managers: Gustav and Alfried Krupp - The Weapons Builder

In July 1948, Alfried Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach was adjudged by an U.S. Military Tribunal to 12 years imprisonment and confiscation of his whole estate. No other German industrialist was punished as hard as him after World War II. Originally, Krupp should be seated next to Göring in the main war criminal trial of Nuremberg where he presumably would have expected the death penalty. No other company was as hated by the allies as Krupp, the weapons builder of the Reich. Benjamin Ferencz, prosecutor at the Nuremberg trial, summarizes: "The name Krupp as the munitions king for the Führer already had a residence throughout the world. Everybody in the world was so outraged by the crimes of the Nazis that the whish was so enormous that the public throughout the world demanded that the perpetrators be brought to justice."

As the greatest armament manufacturer of the German Reich the Krupp family forged over generations the weapons for the Prussian kings and the German emperor. The elitist family was very loyal to the emperor and later on they supported the conservative parties of the new democracy. Consequently, the steel barons from Essen declined the aimer Hitler during the Weimarer Republic. Alfried's parents, Gustav and his wife Bertha, saw the advancement of Hitler with a mixture of disdainfulness, scepticism and cautious submitting. Therefore the nomination of Adolf Hitler as chancellor of the Reich in January, the 30th 1933 released perplexity at the Krupp family. Anyhow, Gustav Krupp, the chairman of the company at that time, worked together with the new government. Hitler nominated him as "Wehrwirtschaftsführer" (economic leader of the Third Reich) and conferred him the golden party-emblem to use him and his company for the NS propaganda.

After his studies, Alfried joined the company and became the official follower of his father. In 1943 he became chairman of Krupp instead of Gustav who went deadly sick. At that time, although the war was already lost, the heir was driven to build even more weapons, getting support of an army of slave labours. Alfried accomplished his mission and that is why he was blamed one of the primarily responsible, who exploited the concentration camp prisoners and over 100.000 slave labours. But for all that the NS leaders were disappointed: Alfried had none of the characteristics the regime expected for a manager in his category: blind fanaticism and unscrupulous leadership.

When the American troops conquered Essen in April 1945, the young Krupp was immediately captured and brought to justice. Originally, his father Gustav should be accused, but his poor health impeded him to appear in court. He died in 1950. In 1951, the judgment amnestied Alfried Krupp and he got back his whole estate since America needed strong confederates in the Cold War against communism.

While many Germans tried to forget Hitler's Reich, Alfried recognized his duty: already in the fifties he arranged compensations for former Jewish slave labours. He also made the fundamental decision that Krupp wouldn't produce any weapons anymore. The film persecutes the way of life of Gustav and Alfried Krupp and tells how they became "Hitler's Managers" in spite of their opposition against him. In this context close family members, Alfried's advocate and a prosecutor from the Nuremberg trials were interviewed for the first time. Previously unreleased coloured film footage is shown in the documentary as well as sensational snapshots of Hitler visiting the Krupp family and showing him abased due to the disrespectful treatment by the Krupps.

"Gustav and Alfried Krupp - The Weapons Builder" was created by on behalf of the ZDF as part of the series "Hitler's Manager" and was first broadcast in November, the 30th 2004 on ZDF.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:16 am

David M. Satterfield
by Wikipedia
Accessed: 12/10/17



David Michael Satterfield

David Michael Satterfield (born December 18, 1954) is an American diplomat and U.S. Ambassador, who has served extensively in the Middle East, including the Persian Gulf area, Lebanon, and Iraq. He later served as a Senior Advisor on Iraq for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and is currently Director General of the Multinational Force and Observers, the peacekeeping force for the Sinai Peninsula. He was chargé d'affaires to Egypt from August 2013 to January 2014. He is currently serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.[1]

When I was living with Sarah McClendon, and helping her in 1986, I went everywhere she went, because she’s the senior national White House correspondent. And I went to the State Department one day because I was curious about why there isn’t peace in the Middle East. And I wanted to go to what I thought was the Middle East Department. There was a group of students, and I got a press pass ostensibly to go in and interview them. So I left them, and meandered up to the Near East section. And I had quite a few hours. I thought they were going to say, “What are you doing here?,” because all the doors were open. They had these little buttons on each door that they could have closed, and you could have known somebody to get in, which I think is terrible to have the American people not know, and not be allowed in to the State Department without a special Sarah McClendon. If I hadn’t been living with this senior White House correspondent, I as a citizen would not be welcome at the State Department. Now, if they are interested in peace, and they are interested in that kind of thing, they are certainly not showing it by the closed-door policy.

So I went in, and there were about 8 or 10 offices. I went in every single one. I was looking to find out who the leaders were. I knew about Aaron David Miller. I knew about David Satterfield, who really wasn’t David Satterfield. His family were Zionists, who changed their name to David Satterfield, who was a Virginia senator back in the ‘30s who had a wonderful name. Like Jonathan Pollard who took the name “Pollard,” which wasn’t his name, because of Governor Pollard. I was married to Governor Pollard’s grandson for 21 years. They take the names of honorable people, and then they’re not honorable.

[Pastor Strawcutter] What was his name previous to Satterfield?

[Kay Griggs] Now Aaron David Miller, I think that is possibly his name. It might have been Muller. But I’m not saying that just because they change their name they are bad. But what I am saying is that there is this idea that, “go ahead and change it, and be somebody else.” Kind of like a snake, changing colors for the moment; not being honorable and truthful. Saying, “my family is Bzezinski” – heck, I’d be “Brzezinski,” I’m the 8th Katherine in a row from Scotland; it’s ridiculous. But my daughter’s Katherine and my granddaughter’s Katherine. It’s a family tradition -- weird -- but we’re happy with that.

So David Satterfield, the reason I went there is because in the Spring I went to a dinner or luncheon that the World Affairs Council had in Norfolk. And he was speaking. And I’m very interested in peace, because as a Christian I want it. I know it’s possible if people are reasonable. And this talk that David Satterfield gave, there were probably twenty mentions of Israel to one of the Palestinians. He was extremely biased and arrogant. The arrogance is what bothers me. Because you can’t have peace or justice where there’s imbalance.

-- Interview with Kay Griggs, by Pastor Strawcutter


Born in Baltimore, Maryland, Satterfield graduated from the University of Maryland, College Park, with a Bachelor of Arts in 1976.

He entered the Foreign Service in 1980, and has served overseas in Jeddah, Tunis, Beirut, and Damascus. Director of the Department of State Executive Secretariat Staff from 1990 to 1993, Satterfield served on the National Security Council Staff from 1993 to 1996 as Director for Near East and South Asian Affairs. He held the position of Director of the Department of State’s Office of Israel and Arab-Israeli Affairs from 1996 to 1998, and was the Ambassador to Lebanon from September 1998 to June 2001.

The United States Senate confirmed Satterfield to succeed Edward William Gnehm, Jr. as Ambassador to Jordan, but shortly thereafter (on June 1, 2004) the Secretary of State designated him Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Near East Affairs (NEA) (having served for the previous three years as NEA Deputy Assistant Secretary), and in May 2005 he was sent to Iraq as Deputy Chief of Mission. As a result, he never assumed his post in Jordan. On 19 May 2006, the U.S. Department of State announced Satterfield’s appointment as Coordinator for Iraq and Senior Adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. [1]

In May 2009, Satterfield retired with the rank of career minister from his nearly 30-year career in the Foreign Service. Upon nomination by the U.S. government, he was then appointed director general of the Multinational Force and Observers (MFO), an independent international organization, by the Arab Republic of Egypt and State of Israel, and assumed office on July 1, 2009. The MFO, whose mission is the implementation of the security provisions of the Egyptian-Israeli Treaty of Peace, is headquartered in Rome, with peacekeeping responsibilities in the Sinai. The director general is responsible for exercising his authority through his staff at the headquarters in Rome, the force staff commander and his staff in the Sinai, and the director general's representatives and their staffs in Cairo and Tel Aviv. Satterfield served as chief of mission in Cairo from August 2013 to January 2014 and was special advisor to the Secretary of State for Libya from May to September 2014.[2] On 5 September 2017 he was appointed to serve as Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.[1]

Ambassador Satterfield is the recipient of the:

Presidential Distinguished Executive Rank Award;
Presidential Meritorious Executive Rank Award;
The Secretary of State's Distinguished Service Award (for Iraq service);
Department of State Distinguished Honor Award;
Four Department of State Superior Honor Awards, notably for his work on the Middle East peace process;
Department of the Army Outstanding Civilian Service Award (for Iraq service).


1. "David M. Satterfield". U.S. Department of State. Retrieved 8 December 2017.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:33 am

Jerry L. Unruh, VADM, USN (Ret.)
Accessed: 12/12/17




Date of Designation: 28 March 1961

Dates of Active Duty: 28 January 1958 - 1 October 1994

Total Flight Hours: 5,100

Carrier/Ship Landings: Fixed wing: 720

Approximate Flight Hours:
Jet: 4,900 Prop: 200 VF/VA: 4,100
VU/VFP: 750 VT: 250

Combat Tours:
Vietnam: VF-211, USS Hancock, Dec. 1964-Mar. 1966 (F8)
Vietnam: VF-211, USS Hancock, Nov. 1970-May 1972 (F8)
Total - 295 missions

Aviation Commands:
CO, VF-142, Jun. 1975 - Nov. 1976
CO, Navy Fighter Weapons Squadron - TOPGUN, Mar. 1978 - Jan. 1979
CO, VF-124, Feb. 1979 - May 1980
CO, USS Wichita (AOR-1), Jan. 1983 - Jul. 1984
CO, USS Saratoga (CV-60), May 1985 - Apr. 1987
COMCARGRU ONE, Jul. 1989 - Apr. 1991
Commander, Third Fleet, Apr. 1991 - Oct. 1994

Combat Awards:
Legion of Merit
4 Meritorious Service Medals
14 Air Medals
Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry


Duty Assignment Chronology
1/57-1/58 Naval Reserve (Active duty service periods).
1/58-7/59 Enlisted training bases & COMNAVAIRLANT
7/59-3/61 Flight Training, Pensacola FL, Kingsville, TX.
4/61-9/63 VU-7, San Diego (FJ-4, F-8, F-9, T-33).
10/63-1/64 VF-124, San Diego (F-8).
2/64-4/66 VF-211, San Diego (F-8).
5/66-12/69 VF-124, San Diego (F-8).
1/70-5/72 VF-24, San Diego (F-8).
6/72-3/74 U.S. Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA. BS Degree - Computer Science.
4/74-2/75 VF-124, San Diego (F-14A).
3/75-11/76 VF-142, Virginia Beach, VA (F-14A).
11/76-2/78 COMNAVAIRLANT, Norfolk, VA.
3/78-1/79 Navy Fighter Weapons Squadron - TOPGUN.
2/79-5/80 VF-124, (F-14).
12/80-6/82 USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63). Executive Officer.
1/83-7/84 USS Wichita (AOR-1), Commanding Officer.
5/85-4/87 USS Saratoga (CV-60), Commanding Officer.
6/87-4/88 CNO Strategic Studies Group.
4/88-6/89 NATO, SACEUR Staff.
7/89-4/91 Commander, Carrier Group One.
4/91-10/94 Commander Third Fleet.

Summary of Significant Career Events
(1) One of five pilots to fly the F-8 Crusader in excess of 3,000 hours.
(2) As CO, USS Saratoga: directed and captured Libyan terrorists who had taken over the cruise ship Achille Lauro in the Mediterranean Sea.
(3) Made the first ever night transit of the Suez Canal by an aircraft carrier.
(4) Took the carrier inside the lagoon and pierside at Diego Garcia, Indian Ocean. Evaluated too risky for future carriers.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:53 am

Togo D. West Jr.
by Wikipedia
Accessed: 12/12/17



Togo D. West, Jr.
3rd United States Secretary of Veterans Affairs
In office
May 4, 1998 – July 10, 2000
President Bill Clinton
Preceded by Jesse Brown
Succeeded by Anthony Principi
United States Secretary of the Army
In office
November 22, 1993 – May 4, 1998
President: Bill Clinton
Preceded by: Gordon Sullivan (Acting)
Succeeded by Mike Walker (Acting)
General Counsel of the Navy
In office
April 22, 1977 – January 13, 1979
President: Jimmy Carter
Preceded by: Grey Lewis
Succeeded by: Coleman Hicks
Personal details
Born Togo Dennis West Jr.
June 21, 1942 (age 75)
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, U.S.
Political party: Democratic
Spouse(s): Gail Berry
Children: 2 daughters
Education: Howard University (BS, JD)
Military service
Allegiance: United States
Service/branch: United States Army
Years of service 1965–1973
Unit: Army Judge Advocate General's Corps
Awards: Legion of Merit; Meritorious Service Medal

Togo Dennis West Jr. (born June 21, 1942) is an American attorney and public official who was the third person to occupy the post of Secretary of Veterans Affairs. He was nominated by President Bill Clinton on January 27, 1998, during Clinton's second term, and was confirmed by the Senate on May 4, 1998. He had previously served as Secretary of the Army from 1993 to 1998. From January 2, 1998 through May 4, 1998, he served a dual role as Acting Secretary of Veterans Affairs and Secretary of the Army while awaiting confirmation as Secretary of Veterans Affairs. He was the second African American to be Secretary of Veterans Affairs.

Personal life

West was born in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, where he became an Eagle Scout with Bronze Palms, and attended Atkins High School (where his parents were teachers), graduating as valedictorian in 1959.

He subsequently entered Howard University, obtaining a Bachelor of Science degree in engineering in 1965. He received his Juris Doctor degree from the Howard University School of Law in 1968, receiving cum laude honors and graduating first in his class.

While a freshman at Howard University, he became a brother of Zeta Phi chapter of Alpha Phi Omega service fraternity. West is a member of the Kappa Psi chapter of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity.

While a law student at Howard, West became the managing editor for the Howard Law Journal. Around that time, he met Gail Berry, who later became his wife. The Wests have two daughters.

A member of St. John's Episcopal Church, Lafayette Square, he served as a vestryman and Senior Warden.[1]

West is a member of the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America, the organization's governing body.[2] He has been named a Distinguished Eagle Scout by the Boy Scouts of America and was awarded the Silver Buffalo Award for his national contributions to America’s youth. He previously served as the President of the National Capital Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America.[citation needed]

Military and government career

After completing law school and clerking for a federal judge, West entered the United States Army and served in the Judge Advocate General's Corps. He was in the Army Field Artillery Corps from 1965–68 and the Army Judge Advocate General's Corps from 1969-73.

From his military service, he earned the Legion of Merit and the Meritorious Service Medal. He subsequently practiced law at the firm of Covington & Burling before being appointed an Associate Deputy Attorney General in the administration of President Gerald Ford.

West held several posts in the administration of Jimmy Carter: General Counsel of the Navy (1977–79), Special Assistant to the Secretary and to the Deputy Secretary of Defense (1979), and General Counsel of the Department of Defense (1980–81). As the Secretary of the Army, West weighed in on the Aberdeen scandal, prompting stricter enforcement and investigation into the Army's sexual harassment policies.

West returned to private practice in 1981 with the firm of Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler and later worked as senior vice president for government relations of the Northrop Corporation until he became a member of the Clinton administration.[3]

Post-government career

Since leaving the government, West has practiced law and served on the boards of various institutions. From 2004-06, he served as president of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a Washington-based think tank focused on issues of concern to minorities.[4] He is a strong supporter of and past board member of the Mount Vernon preservation society.[citation needed]

West and former Chief of Naval Operations retired Admiral Vernon Clark led the Defense Department's investigation into the Fort Hood massacre, issuing a report in January 2010.[5]


1. "Fall 2004: Togo West". Alpha Phi Omega @ VCU. Alpha Phi Omega, Alpha Delta Iota Chapter. Archived from the original on February 9, 2005. Retrieved December 10, 2008.
2. Boy Scouts of America Annual Report 2011
3. American President: Bill Clinton
4. "Togo West". Center for Infrastructure Protection & Homeland Security. George Mason University. Archived from the original on February 9, 2005. Retrieved 2015-04-26.
5. Bumiller, Elisabeth; Shane, Scott (2010-01-15). "Pentagon Report on Fort Hood Details Failures". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2015-04-26.
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Re: Mrs. Kay Griggs on How the Government Works

Postby admin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:41 am

Interview with Debra von Trapp
by Sherman H. Skolnick
Transcribed by Brian Francis Redman
May 5, 1995



SHERMAN SKOLNICK: I had sent some faxes of some of our stories to Debra von Trapp. And she's with Trapp Technologies. And she called me, Friday evening, May 5th, 1995. And I told her I would like to tape a lengthy interview with her, to use on whatever media I could get it on -- whether on a radio show, or elsewhere. And so, this is the interview and discussion that I had with her.

I may pause, from time to time, to -- well, I may have to go back, in fact, and look in our file and spell some of the names that are mentioned here, that are complicated. We've got some backup documents (news stories and so on, that support her story) with complicated names from where she used to work.

But I'll begin the interview right now.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What I wanted to find out first are some of the details; why you believe these things have been happening.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: You mean which points?

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Well, as I understand... Well, the point is, you have been a high-level technical expert, sort of on the cutting edge of high technology. Am I correct?


SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In the computer field, and you've done work, apparently, worldwide.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: That's correct.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In the course of your work, you found out certain things, such as that some companies were actually committing espionage and so on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP: Yes. As an outside consultant to Xerox Corporation, I was selecting foreign management for a division called Shugart back in the early '80s in Germany, when I discovered that the Shugart division of Xerox was, in fact, bringing disk drives -- which were manufactured by [Matshusta(?)] in Japan -- they were manufactured there, brought into Sunnyvale, California, labeled for Shugart, and then sent to the Shugart Munich facility in Germany, where, after having been received under Cocomm(?) freight documents (which were legally forwarded in the U.S.), the freight documents were then changed to show that they were forwarded to destinations at Olivetti, Italy and a company in France (which were legal trading partners of the U.S.) when, in fact, the sales records were being changed and ultimately destroyed by the Shugart employees -- allegedly, for tax evasion purposes. But, in fact, the [disk] drives were being put on trucks and sent into the East Bloc, to an entity called IsoTempex(sp?); they were selling to the KGB.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words, this was early in the '80s, when it was really quite unlawful for American companies to be sending hard disk drives to the Eastern Bloc, am I correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP: That's correct.And at the same time, Xerox Corporation was, in fact, conducting CIA training camp at its Leesburg, Virginia facility.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So some of the big companies in America have been into East-West espionage.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: Yes. In fact, Aldrich Ames was the chief of Russian counter-intelligence at the time. And "Rick" Ames and a director of operations at Xerox/CIA (which was Daniel Starkey), he and Ames and a few senior officials, both at Xerox and the CIA, were pocketing the cash out of that operation.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words, there's some angles of the Aldrich Ames spy scandal that the, has not come out, which you're just mentioning now.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: Right. But in fact, that all connects forward to what we're looking at today: with some of the same team of people out of CIA and FBI... Ultimately, that were involved with all of these folks.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In other words, that the Aldrich Ames scandal, they haven't gone into this; there's a lot to it yet, in other words.


SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Tell me this: in the process of learning about this, this type of thing, I understand that you became knowledgeable about the fact that the Japanese have been spying on the Clinton White House. Is that correct?

DEBRA VON TRAPP: That's correct. But it wasn't outside knowledge; I was inside that operation. Some of the same people that came out of that Xerox/"Rick" Ames scenario in the early '80s then transitioned... There's a specific person, Robert Goetzman, who is a high-ranking FBI official, who has what is known as "dual agency" -- he operates, also, out of the CIA -- and had a heavy relationship with Daniel Starkey out at Xerox.

When I had, ultimately, decided to go to the FBI over what I knew about Xerox and then discovered that that investigation had been completely closed. And then I was ultimately threatened -- both myself and my son -- by Xerox officials and their outside counsel.
When they failed to intimidate me, and I had actually ended up in litigation with them.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Yeah, I noticed some of the stories from '91 and '92 about your litigation with Xerox.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: That actually went up through this year. We were still in federal court, as of last year, over that.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So in other words, some of these things have been a matter of court record, but are not too well-known to the public.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: That's right. And actually, we have substantial court records, between myself and MCA, Mitsubishi, and Xerox, at different times while they've tried to insure that I wouldn't discuss this with any of the mainstream media or have the public become knowledgeable about it.

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So you are of the opinion that, from what you know, that there's a tremendous fight between the Washington government and the Tokyo government -- sort of a financial fight, having to do with the Yen/Dollar ratio, and so on?

DEBRA VON TRAPP: Yes. And that's derivative of the fact that Robert Goetzman, when he approached me on behalf of Xerox in 1991 to dissuade me, by threat, to get out of court with them, he did not identify himself as FBI. He introduced himself as being from the Executive Office of the President, under Mr. Bush. And ultimately, [he] persuaded me, by threat, as a trade-off to not having my son killed, to cooperate with them in introductions to CEOs and chairmen within the computer industry to be able to view their, what we would know as their "black hole technology", which was technology and development that was very advanced, that was not released to the public and was well-ahead of the government developments in various projects, in many cases. And that introduction, and that project that we were on, was actually a national network surveillance project that was partially based out of an Air Force base in Alabama, and was related to the officers from the Air Force that were in the downed aircraft in Alabama, two days before the Oklahoma...

SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Yeah. In other words, a day-and-a-half before, on Monday, April 17th, 1995, there was a high-level military group on a military Lear Jet, that crashed -- apparently... Well, the story in the press said that they were on their way from Andrews Air Force Base to San Antonio. But, apparently, the plane blew up, or something happened to it, as they were over Alabama.

DEBRA VON TRAPP: Yes. Because the same, the Special Ops team that was under Goetzman, contracted by he and his team, and paid for with Japanese government funds through MCA Universal and administered through the Embassy of Japan, in Washington... Some members of a Special Ops team out of Alabama are responsible -- both for the downing of that craft, and for taking down the Oklahoma federal building.


Interview with Debra von Trapp
by Chuck ___
June 25, 1995



Here's an interview I did again with Debra Von Trapp on 6/25/95. My intent was to answer a lot of questions I've been asked by people who read the original interview by Sherman Skolnick and ones that I had myself.

Chuck: Let's see. You say your information was classified as "A2".

Debra: The statement is from the new interim commander of the militia, that . . .

Chuck: Militia of Michigan, right?

Debra: . . . Militia of Michigan . . . that one of the members stepped forward during the meeting in which he was appointed interim commander and he furnished him with information regarding a translator that dealt with a document for the Japanese government that confirmed my information and this person described this document which classified it as "A2". . .

Chuck: Okay

Debra: . . . which in his common language, he described it being verified information and verified participants. Uh, so that's why the interim commander gave me a call just a few days after he was appointed and discussed that with me and then additionally, that an ex-White House official who is still with the government has been transferred to another post, stepped forward and signed a document for Sherman Skolnick a few days ago which confirms my information and that was the reason why Sherman Skolnick called me and stated to me that he had confirmed my information, and ...

Chuck: Now when you say confirmed your information, you're talking about that the Japanese hired, or contracted the job to bomb the building in Oklahoma City, right?

Debra: The way . . . the way . . Sherman was not specific in that detail, Sherman said "your information" and left it at that. And so . . . I haven't . . . Sherman was on two other phone calls as I understood . . .

Chuck: That sounds like him.

Debra: . . . when I called him back from my call. And I asked him to follow up with me on it and he told me that he was preparing one of his reports that he usually puts out . . .

Chuck: Yeah, he faxes them to me.

Debra: . . . and that his report would contain as much information as he could provide without revealing the identity of the person signing the statement for him because at this point he is concerned that that person is jeopardized. And I can certainly understand that because, considering that I worked with the people that killed Vince Foster, and the individual that confirmed my information to him, additionally confirmed that Vince Foster died as a result of being part of that larger operation which included the Japanese surveillance on White House communications and Skolnick did confirm that much to me, that it was absolutely confirmed, that the Japanese government had in fact conducted that surveillance operation on the Executive Office of the President.

Chuck: So, um . . .

Debra: Of course I went out and helped purchase the equipment for it and operated with the Japanese officials on it, so, you know, it didn't need to be confirmed to me, but . . . .

Chuck: So, were you aware that this type of capability was in place when you were purchasing the equipment? I mean were you...

Debra: Did I know we were bugging the White House?

Chuck: Yeah.

Debra: Absolutely.

Chuck: Oh . . okay.

Debra: I didn't know at that time that we were operating on Japanese government funds. I found that out later. I knew that we were actively surveilling the Clinton administration.

Chuck: And who did you think was . . was . . uh . .

Debra: I thought that I was conducting consulting to certain government offices. The persons that were conducting that operation had been identified to me as CIA, FBI and Defense Intelligence Agency. And so, I was, um, operating, if you will or accompanying government employees conducting that operation.

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: So, to the best of my knowledge at that moment, I believed that we were still operating on behalf of CIA, black budget funds.

Chuck: How did they commission you to do this. Did you have to pass some kind of security, like an EBI (extended background investigation) or something like that, or, I mean how did you kind of get into the business of doing things like these.

Debra: That's an interesting question Chuck. That's the kind of information that I will bring forward at an unedited live civic hearing.

Chuck: Oh, I see.

Debra: And if it can't be conducted there then it will be conducted sooner at a live unedited press conference with the surviving members of that event and their families, including Edye Smith and her father.

Chuck: And do you anticipate that being . . . soon . . or . .

Debra: I believe that that's going to take place, um, . . . I would say within the next 30 days. I know that the state panel that's been, uh . . proposed and should be embodied within the next week will have subpoena power. And as long as they have subpoena power that I intend to become part of their investigation. Additionally there are federal procedures that allow third parties to intercede in criminal hearings and I intend to have counsel intercede on my behalf in the prosecution proceeding against Tim McVeigh. So I will enter that proceeding as a third party on behalf of myself and on behalf of the victims and survivors.

Chuck: I see.

Debra: To provide the testimony that I have regarding that event.

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: It would be reasonable to believe that McVeigh's attorney will subpoena me anyway as a witness.

Chuck: Oh yes, definitely.

Debra: The prosecution obviously, would rather that I didn't discuss any us this because it doesn't help their . . the . . fabricated story that they have created.

Chuck: Well, who is Tim McVeigh, I mean as far as your perspective goes. I mean . . how . . was he involved, was he not. I mean it's just kinda like somebody that they happened to find out on the road at that time of the morning. I mean where did they find this guy.

Debra: Well, it sounds like you haven't followed Brian Redman's transcript of Skolnick's interview with, to ask that kind of question.

Chuck: Well, actually, I did, I read it, but it's been awhile. In fact I have a copy of it in my briefcase. I don't recall you addressing, other than uh, . . I don't know . . I read so many things. I don't know if he was a patsy or not.

Debra: The statement that I have made about Tim McVeigh is the following:

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: Tim McVeigh, had nothing to do with the Oklahoma City bombing. He was not present at the bombing. He did not have a Ryder truck there. There was no Ryder truck in front of the building. There was no fertilizer bomb. And there was no fertilizer bomb inside a Ryder truck in front of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City, on April 19th, 1995.

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: And to date, that statement that I have made consistently, daily since April 19th, 1995, is consistent with all known evidence brought forward at this time.

Chuck: Okay, but what about that . . remember the . . they show the axle, I've seen this on TV, I don't know . . .

Debra: Yeah, the infamous axle.

Chuck: Yeah!

Debra: Yeah, did you hear the first reports they ever brought out where none other than Governor Keating(sp?) himself personally found it?

Chuck: (laughs) No, I didn't hear that!

Debra: Well, if you were in the midwest at all, all major news broadcasts reported for a couple of days that he personally found it, retrieved, and turned it over for evidence. Then miraculously . . . sort of like the Ryder truck, um, the vehicle that came from Arizona and pulled over with McVeigh but then was found in a driveway in Arizona with rusted axles in place.

Chuck: (laughs) I see.

Debra: Miraculously that story changed and suddenly Governor Keating was never there and never found it. It became "a policeman found it".

Chuck: Oh, I see.

Debra: But if you compare the original newscast to the later newscast, it's another FBI fairytale. And . . and . . I don't have time to go into the details now, but if you choose to pursue Governor Keating's personal friendships and relationships politically you will find an interesting tie between the Governor, the persons prosecuting Tim McVeigh, the ATF, and the FBI.

Chuck: And you know they did mention that uh, the VIN number was on the axle? The Vehicle Identification Number? Now, I've worked in the automotive business, and I know where the VIN numbers are and they are not on the axle. They just aren't. They're in the door jam, they're on the . . . you know . . . they're all over the place, but they aren't on the axle! I can tell you that right now.

Debra: Yeah, but they had to be on this story. It's like Tim McVeigh had to . . . you know, a week later they decided he must have had a folded up Ryder truck in the front pocket of his shirt. (laughs) And the story that came out right after he was arrested and they couldn't explain why they left his car on the side of the road for a couple of days, you know the most important piece of evidence in America at the time.

Chuck: You would think so.

Debra: And then they came out with this story that they expected to find the missing license plate off the back of his car in the rubble of the Murrah building.

Chuck: Yeah, because it "fell off", or . . I don't know . . .

Debra: Yeah, now that was what was really going to be the magic . . . better than the magic bullet with Kennedy, we're going to have the magic license plate, because according to their theory, the axle blew off a Ryder truck and went blocks down the street the other direction, but he had run to a car, a getaway car, positioned somewhere far away from the front of the building and only the license plate would have miraculously jumped off the back of the car into the rubble, it must have passed the axle, mid-air, going off in the other direction . . .

Chuck: (sarcastically) Well, I guess it could happen . . .

Debra: Yeah, you know, it probably saw the Roadrunner go by and honk (laughs). The stories just stretch credulity and all reasonable thinking to the point at this moment most of America must be sitting in stunned disbelief that the FBI, the ATF, Janet Reno, anybody else, would have them believe any part of this story regarding Tim McVeigh. It's just, uh . . .

Chuck: It's way out there.

Debra: It's . . it's so far out, it's past science fiction at this point.

Chuck: (laughs) It's not even good fiction, at that.

Debra: It's not! You know and then I get attacked (laughs) by Dateline who decides not to air my interview, carefully words an attack on me where if you play . . . replay their tape you see that they've put together two phone mail messages that were unrelated to each other and even the intonations are different and in fact where they say I am making a statement about them, a lot of reasonable people have pointed out to me that independent of my statement regarding that, they noticed that it is actually in question form, uh, where they're accusing me of a statement that I had suggested that they were the front for somebody. You know, I think everybody has pretty much figured out on the Dateline piece as well that they didn't present any of the information that's allegedly known to 3 to 5 million people. There's not one detail that they advanced.

Chuck: Yeah, I know.

Debra: So that's why I suggested that it might be prudent to go ahead and put out the Dateline tape and what I've offered to do at the end of the live interview between me and Chris Hanson, I'm including one of the recorded telephone conversations between myself and one of the federal employees . . .

Chuck: Um . .

Debra: . . . making a threat directly against me, telling me that I will be killed if I talk about the Embassy of Japan or the Executive Office operation.

Chuck: Now was that before they actually attempt that . . I remember . . now this is a part I remember . . in the interview with you and Sherman, you said that they left you for dead 100 miles from your house.

Debra: (solemn) That's correct.

Chuck: Um . . .

Debra: And that's not even a subject that I'm going to discuss. And I haven't discussed it with anybody other than to make that statement.

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: I actually have the tape recordings of them discussing that with me as well.

Chuck: But that is verifiable, right?

Debra: (very quiet) Yes, it is.

Chuck: Because that is probably the most commonly asked question I get when people read the interview that you did with Sherman, is that, why is this woman still alive.

Debra: I have $25,000 worth of medical bills, that's why I'm still alive.

Chuck: And I say, "read the interview and she talks about it."

Debra: They aren't sure why I survived what I was put through either. I think it was the sheer determination, not to um, . . .

Chuck: Not to give . . not to . .

Debra: . . to come back to my son.

Chuck: Hmm.

Debra: I think the government has wholly under-estimated a mother's will. Both with Edye Smith and myself. They consistently told Edye to quit asking questions and to shut up.

Chuck: Now, who's Edye Smith?

Debra: She's the mom of the . . Coulton and Chase, the two little boys killed in the daycare center.

Chuck: The two and the three year old?

Debra: Right. And I've talked with Edye a couple of times and I've talked with her dad, more than that, and I've committed to them, no matter what sort of personal attack that I face over this, that I will not be dissuaded from bringing this information forward, providing the evidence, standing shoulder to shoulder with them, asking the same questions and demanding that the American public be given the actual information regarding this whole circumstance.

Chuck: The moral of this story being, don't mess with mom, right?

Debra: I think it's don't mess with the American public.

Chuck: Well, that's the bigger story.

Debra: Yeah, and this isn't a nation of two separate sets of people which is what it's beginning to look like. We have a number of people within the government and within the intelligence community that have determined that for their own personal gain and power that they are going to have this country, and that the rest of us are here at their convenience or their will, and that includes their view that there should be no repercussion, no explanation and no prosecution for murdering innocent citizens in their behind-the-scenes turf wars and that's what that effectively was about.

Chuck: Now who are, when you say, "these people", are you referring to the CIA or is it the New World Order crowd.

Debra: You know, I had never even heard the term New World Order. I mean I'm very conservative, mainstream, Republican, professional, you know, I didn't, I . . .

Chuck: Well, you live in Orange County, you have to be.

Debra: You're right, you know. I'm the same gal that stood at the door at the Nixon library with the Presidents during the funeral. I'm obviously, according to this government, this Secret Service and to this military, one of the most trust-worthy people in this country. Yet I start talking about the middle of the operation I was in, and people are attacking me and suggesting otherwise. And I had never heard the term, "New World Order". As far as I know these are the terms I am intimately familiar with: the Justice Department, The Organized Crime and Racketeering section, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Nuclear Regulatory Agency or however it was classified that we were dealing with, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the National Security Council. These are the places that I experienced, worked around with, through, on a daily basis for a number of years and those are terms and places that the American public don't ever deal with, rarely encounter, even discuss, and certainly usually are unaffected by, and those are the places that I have been and exposed to for all of this time. And I'm politically know as not being a person that discusses myself politically and if anything would be described as a conservative. My actual view is the best person that we could have as the next President, is Pat Buchanan. That we could certainly, you know . . it couldn't hurt this country to get into a very mainstream, conservative mode and go clean up a lot of the mess we're in and that doesn't sit well with the people that are trying to paint me as being . . somehow . . having some kind of relationship with the militia or you know any of these other things I've heard including this Dateline statement that I've said I had government enemies. I have never made that statement, have never suggested it. I know that the people that I'm discussing currently, that are part of the government operation that I was involved in, can't be happy about what I'm discussing, but I have never termed them as enemies. I spent virtually every day of my life for years with these men, you know, either in person or on the phone. I mean I've been closer and more intimately familiar with these people than I have been with my family members, for the most part, except with my son, for all of this time.

Chuck: Over what period of time was that?

Debra: Oh, uh, I first crossed the Aldrich Ames and CIA operation back in 1982.

Chuck: Okay.

Debra: So I have a long history with government intelligence.
Um, and it's been, exposed to, familiar with, introduced to, other agencies, other areas, for you know, all of these years up until now. So, it's not, you know . . I don't today characterize anybody that I'm even discussing in terms of the crimes they've committed as my enemy. I think they are extremely unhappy probably with what I'm discussing but, I have never even characterized them that way.

Chuck: Okay . . I think . . .

Debra: It's hard to tell, especially when they're not responding. (laughs) I mean Leon Paneta's assistant in his office has flatly stated to me that I am welcome to call or fax any time. I was given a 24 hour phone number to Mr. Perry's office. He's the Secretary of Defense. I have an administrative assistant's phone number into Mr. Clinton's office, and I happened to know that, the documents that I provide into that office, are hand delivered to him, and not, uh . . .

Chuck: Into Clinton's office?

Debra: . . . into Clinton's office . . because of the circumstances surrounding all of this. You know, that has been stated to me. Um, I feel that if someone was very disturbed about what I'm discussing, they would step forward and say so. And so far Mr. Clinton hasn't called me and suggested that. Other than a few of the people I've actually named like Robert Goetzman, and Jim Coefield(sp?) and Wes Thomas, these are some of the people that have quite pointedly told me to quit talking or I will be killed.

Chuck: Goetzman and the other two?

Debra: Yeah.

Chuck: Oh, okay.

Debra: But they're also widely known to be government intelligence and they've made the mistake of trying to deny that now to certain people, but yet on the other hand, they've been so unabashedly careless about disclosing that to people even in meetings that I've conducted with them, with third parties, that they have no way of taking that back.

Chuck: Yeah.

Debra: Their cover is blown.

Chuck: Yeah that's what really surprised me, especially about Goetzman the way he was handing out the MCA cards and kinda . .

Debra: Goetzman openly, in the computer industry, introduced himself as being from the Executive Office of the President. So, it's a little hard for him to try to retract that now and put on this front of "Gee, I'm just a businessman in Florida."

Chuck: Do you think that that was just because of . . maybe . . he was kind of full of the fact that he was from the Executive Office. He was kinda like "Gosh I'm a big wheel now" type of thing.

Debra: Well, I think that . .

Chuck: I mean why would he compromise himself like that? It, . . . you know . . it seems like he's compromising himself, anyway.

Debra: They all are, but this is my take on this. These are old guard, high level, intelligence members of the government, that have , um, . . that operate in more than one capacity, in more than one agency, that have a tremendous amount of authority and autonomy and huge budgets to deal with, and not unlike many of the high ranking government officials that I've been around lead a lifestyle that conflicts financially with government employment where they enjoy the finer things of life. They enjoy making a point of that, they enjoy the social side of that, they especially enjoy engaging in cocktail type functions which includes a lot of drinking. I have been around all of these men when they engaged in that on a consistent basis. I have freely described in my personal opinion, not a medical opinion, because I'm not medically qualified, but in my personal observations of a great deal amount of time, over a number of years, in many different locations around this country, I have spent a great deal of time, personally viewing Robert Goetzman ingesting a great amount of alcohol and believe that his propensity to do so, in combination with, his . . what I believe is a great ego, leads him to make statements which he carelessly makes and which ultimately blow his cover, as a government's intelligence . . er, a member of the government intelligence community.

Chuck: And does that seem to be especially him, or are they all that way?

Debra: They're pretty much are all that way. It's a good old boy network, they're all pretty much in that same mode.

Chuck: I see, the tough guy, party hardy type, huh?

Debra: These are all guys that are in their 50's that are senior and very comfortable. I think that they don't worry about that at all. In fact there was only one occasion that I ever saw Robert Goetzman not drinking around me and we were out to dinner in Atlanta and he was with another person who was introduced to me as FBI, that I will not name, and it was Goetzman, this other man, myself and a person that I brought along with me at the last minute that I had previously discussed with Goetzman but he did not know was going to be part of the dinner party and this person is a well regarded journalist, who was previously with a major network and the correspondent to the State Department. And when we showed up together, Goetzman became enraged, sort of, off-to-the-side making a point to me that he was extremely upset that I had brought this person along because these guys were out to have a good time on the town in Atlanta that night. He even said, "I know what you're doing. You're not going to get away with it," which was, he believed that I brought this person along to somehow expose him or set him up. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. The other person and I were simply friends. I have a high regard for him. He had no other plans that evening. We had already been to a social function attached to COMDEX together at two locations and I simply invited him to complete the evening with us. And we ended up on some COMDEX transportation, you know how they do these shuttle bus things?

Chuck: Uh, huh.

Debra: . . . and he was gonna get off at the next stop and my next stop was to meet Goetzman and this other guy, and I simply said, "Just tag along, all we're gonna do is eat dinner." And instead, Goetzman just went into orbit over it.

Chuck: Really

Debra: And that's the only time he refused to drink. He was so uptight. That . . . I mean, he was just beside himself the whole evening.

Chuck: Probably the one time he needed it, right?

Debra: Yeah! (laughs)

Chuck: Also, in the interview with Sherman, you had mentioned . . . kinda going off in another track here . . . INSLAW software.

Debra: Uh huh.

Chuck: Now that's banking software, right?

Debra: Yep. Well, there are different versions of the PROMIS software. The CIA did a number of different things with that code. So it . . it's . . that code is . . um . .extremely useful. It, in it's capabilities, can do high speed transmission of a number of things and the range goes all the way from monetary transactions to video transmission.

Chuck: But wouldn't that also depend on the hardware? I mean as far as being able to handle that type of throughput? Is that where the satellite technology comes in?

Debra: Well, now, you know what, the hardware isn't such an issue on that kind of technology.

Chuck: Okay. What kind of transfer . . when you say "high speed transfer rates" is that like what? Or am I getting into an area I shouldn't be getting into?

Debra: Well, it's not an area that I can discuss. But I can tell you that when you think in terms . . . this is what I . . at the most . . . I guess . . "common man", level of description, that . . when you think in terms of how you can use your VISA card at a store and in just moments it goes into a system nationwide and comes back to you, and ID's you and can check your signature (nothing checks your signature except for the clerk) or your banking pattern of purchases and all of that . . .

Chuck: Or the credit balance.

Debra: Right. And how momentary that is. Consider doing public surveillance and taking photographs of just someone standing on a street corner, and instantaneously being able to do video transfer, comparison, and to databanks of known suspects, terrorists, political enemies, people you would like to set up, if you were in the government. Anything like that, you know, being able to instantaneously compare it and place it even back, that information back to some person, close to the locality you just viewed.

Chuck: That's pretty scary stuff.
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