How should prosecutors+courts respond to Trump's promise of a "bloodbath" if he loses the election?
by Glenn Kirschner
Mar 17, 2024
Donald Trump is on pretrial release in four felony cases. Donald Trump used inflammatory rhetoric to inspire and incite an attack on the US Capitol on January 6 to try to retain power. Now, Trump has ratcheted up his violent rhetoric, promising a "bloodbath" if he is not reelected.
In the criminal justice system, the law provides that if someone on pretrial release poses a danger to even a single person in the community, they should be revoked on release and detained pending trial.
Will prosecutors, the courts and the institutions of government receive Trump's latest violent rhetoric - signaling to his supporters that he expects them to respond with violence if he loses - with a shrug? Or will they protect the American people by applying the law as it is intended to be applied and detain him pending trial?
Transcript
well friends Donald Trump is now on
record as promising a
bloodbath if he's not
reelected how should the criminal
justice system
respond let's talk about that because
Justice
matters
hey all Glenn kersner here so friends
can we talk about Donald Trump's recent
bloodbath
comments and the
implications of a defendant who is on
pre-trial release in four felony
cases promising that the country will
experience a blood bath if he doesn't
get what he
wants start with the new reporting this
from Rolling Stone headline Trump says
there will be a blood bath and elections
will end if he isn't
reelected and that article begins Donald
Trump appeared at a rally hosted by
Super PAC Buckeye values in Dayton Ohio
on Saturday supporting Bernie Marino the
Senate candidate vying for the GOP
Primary who Trump endorsed
of course it would not be a trump rally
without him spouting off about the
election he lost being rigged and
talking in near apocalyptic terms should
he not be reelected this year quote now
if I don't get elected it's going to be
a bloodbath for the whole that's going
to be the least of it it's going to be a
bloodbath for the country that'll be the
least of it close quote he warned later
he went as far as ominously implying
that voting as we know it won't exist if
he loses quote I don't think you're
going to have another election in this
country if we don't win this election
close quote Trump said now friends let
me Circle back to the bloodbath comment
because Trump tried to walk it back
later saying he was really talking about
what would happen to the Auto industry
if he wasn't elected but
his words belly that indeed they
contradict that BS walk back after he
kind of yammered and slurred his way
through something about the Auto
industry he then pivoted and let's go to
his words again he said if I don't get
elected it's going to be a bloodbath for
the whole that's going to be the least
of it it's going to be a bloodbath for
the country that'll be the least of it
so when he was talking about the blood
bath for the country that would result
if he wasn't elected when he said
that'll be the least of it he was
setting aside his yammering about the
Auto industry he pivoted he's like uh
the auto stuff that'll be the least of
it if I'm Not Elected there will be a
blood
bath what was he doing there
friends remember proud boys stand
by right now it's it will be a blood
bath there will be a blood bath for the
country do you all hear me am I sending
the signal clearly enough do what I say
there will be a blood bath this is no
different than come to DC on January 6th
will be
wild if you don't fight like hell you
won't have a country anymore stand by
there will be a blood
bath you hear my command
magga this from a man who is on
pre-trial release in four felony cases
two Federal and two
State you know what the law provides
friends you probably do if you've
watched any of my Justice matter matters
videos over the past 6 months or a year
the law provides that if somebody is in
a pre-trial status in a felony case and
that person poses a risk to the
community or even one person in the
community that person is to be detained
pending trial that person should be
revoked on release and should sit his
big orange butt in a jail cell pending
trial to neutralize the threat he is a
threat to everyone in the United States
of America he is a threat to democracy
he launched an attack on January 6th
against our democracy and it turned out
to be a deadly attack and he launched it
with far less inflammatory language than
he just used at the rally on
Saturday there will be a bloodbath in
this country country do you understand
me that's what he just said he's
actually ratcheted up the recklessness
and the violence of his
rhetoric and he's on pre-trial release
in four felony
cases will the criminal justice system
RIT large just receive this
latest deadly threat with a
yawn or will they apply the law as it
was intended to be applied if somebody
poses a danger to the community to even
one person in the
community they are to be detained
pending trial can you imagine friends if
somebody was on pre-trial release in
let's say a homicide case and while on
pre-trial release that person said if I
don't get what I want there's going to
be a blood
bath do you know how quickly that person
would be revoked on pre-trial released
release and put in pre-trial
detention as the law
provides the law needs to be prodded
into
wakefulness you know on the danger
presented by Donald Trump I don't care
if he's a former president I don't care
if he's a candidate he shouldn't be
allowed to endanger our nation and her
people and our democracy
with this kind of violence violence
inducing rhetoric more Reckless than his
rhetoric on January 6th this is
institutional
insanity if the institutions of
government just receive this with a
shrug I mean do what the law
provides revoke Donald Trump on release
detain him pending trial and for God's
sakes let our country begin to move
forward
again because
Justice
matters friends as always please stay
safe please stay tuned and I look
forward to talking with you all again
[Music]
tomorrow
[Music]
****************************
David Corn slams Trump's claim of a ‘bloodbath’ if he loses presidential election
by MSNBC
Mar 17, 2024 #Trump #Politics #2024Election
In a campaign speech, Donald Trump says there will be a ‘bloodbath’ if he loses. David Corn joins The Weekend to react to the former President’s comments.
[b]Transcript[/b[
>>> THIS MORNING WE ARE
REMINDED ONCE AGAIN OF WHO
DONALD TRUMP REALLY IS, AT A
RALLY IN OHIO, THE FORMER
PRESIDENT SAID SOME MIGRANTS
ARE NOT PEOPLE.
HE CAST DOWN ON THE FUTURE OF
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IF HE LOSES
IN NOVEMBER.
>> IF THIS ELECTION ISN'T WON,
I'M NOT SURE YOU WILL EVER HAVE
ANOTHER ELECTION IN THIS
COUNTRY, DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
I DON'T THINK YOU WILL HAVE
ANOTHER ELECTION IN THIS
COUNTRY IN OR CERTAINLY NOT A
ELECTION THAT IS MEANINGFUL.
>> HE CONTINUED TO WHITEWASH
JANUARY 6th, HE STOOD FOR A
RECORDING OF THE NATIONAL
ANTHEM PERFORMED BY 1/6
DEFENDANT FROM JAIL.
HE CALLED THEM QUOTE HOSTAGES.
JOINING US IS DAVID CORN,
YOU'VE ALSO A POLITICAL
ANALYST.
>> DAVID WHAT DID YOU THINK
ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S BLOODBATH
COMMENTS.
AND I MUST NOTE, LOOK, DONALD
TRUMP, CAMPAIGN, THEY SAID HE
WAS TALKING ABOUT AN ECONOMIC
LIKE BACK I DON'T KNOW IF I BUY
THAT BUT THAT IS IN FACT WHAT
THE CAMPAIGN SAID.
>> TRUMP HAS ALWAYS DONE THIS.
WE'VE BEEN WATCHING THE SHOW
FOR OVER EIGHT YEARS NOW AND
I'VE SEEN IT EVEN LONGER IF
YOU'VE COVERED HIM FOR YEARS,
HE USES THESE HIGH IMPACT WORDS
THAT HAVE EITHER THE DIRECT OR
IMPLICIT TONE OF VIOLENCE.
JANUARY 6th, COME DOWN, IT'S
GOING TO BE WILD, GO TO THE
CAPITAL AND FIGHT LIKE .
>> IT IS ACTUALLY USED EXPLICIT
VIOLENT LANGUAGE AND TELLING
HIS OWN PEOPLE AT RALLIES TO
BEAT THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT OF
PROTESTERS AT THESE RALLIES.
AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME,
TRYING TO PARSE A WORD LIKE
BLOODBATH IS ABSURD.
IN THE SAME SPEECH HE CALLS
HUNDREDS WHO BEAT UP COPS,
UNBELIEVABLE PATRIOTS.
WHEN HE SAYS THE WORD
BLOODBATH, HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S
DOING, WHETHER HE MEETS AN
ECONOMIC BLOODBATH OR SOMETHING
ELSE IN THE SAME SPEECH, HE IS
ENDORSING POLITICAL VIOLENCE
AND WHEN HE SAYS HE'LL NEVER
HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION IF I
DON'T WIN, WELL, THAT, TOO, HAS
A TONE OF VIOLENCE TO IT AS
WELL.
THE ONLY WAY TO TAKE POWER
WOULD BE TO USE POWER IF
THERE'S NO ELECTION.
>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, I
WANT TO PLAY THAT SOUND FROM
THE SPEECH ON SATURDAY, IN
DAYTON.
IF WE COULD.
>> WE ARE GOING TO PUT A 100%
TARIFF ON EVERY SINGLE CAR THAT
COMES ACROSS THE LINE AND HE
WON'T BE ABLE TO SELL THOSE.
IF I GET ELECTED, AND NOW IF I
DON'T GET ELECTED IT'S GOING TO
BE A BLOODBATH, THAT WILL BE
THE LEAST OF IT.
IT'LL BE A BLOODBATH FOR THE
COUNTRY.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO SELL
THOSE CARS.
>> MY TAKE AWAY FROM THAT IS
DONALD TRUMP IS A GROWN MAN.
HE'S A GROWN MAN, AND LAST TIME
I, YOU KNOW, SAW AND HEARD HIM
SPEAK, HE COULD SPEAK THE
ENGLISH LANGUAGE WITH SOME
DEGREE OF CONCLUSION DOES MY
CONFUSION.
THOSE WERE HIS WORDS OUT OF HIS
MOUTH.
YOU HAVE THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION COME BACK WITH A
STATEMENT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY
SAYING, THIS IS WHO DONALD
TRUMP IS, A LOSER WHO GETS BEAT
BY OVER 7 MILLION VOTES AND
INSTEAD OF APPEALING TO A WIDER
MAINSTREAM AUDIENCE DOUBLES
DOWN ON HIS THREATS OF
POLITICAL VIOLENCE.
I THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT TONE.
I THINK THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN HAS
PUT THEIR FINGER ON THE RIGHT
PART OF THIS.
IS THAT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO NOW,
TO YOUR POINT, DAVID?
WE KNOW HE HAS A WAY OF USING
THESE WORDS TO SORT OF,
INSIGHT, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF
RESPONSE FROM HIS AUDIENCE BUT
THERE IS MEANING BEHIND THE
WORDS BECAUSE USE THE WORDS
THAT YOU MEAN, RIGHT?
>> HE USES APOCALYPTIC
LANGUAGE.
HE SAYS JOE BIDEN IS A RADICAL,
WORKING WITH COMMUNISTS AND
ANTIFA TO DESTROY THE SUBURBS.
THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT HE SAID
OVER AND OVER, SO HE'S SAYING,
THEY ARE COMING AT US WITH
VIOLENCE, WE HAVE TO MEET THEM
WITH VIOLENCE, OF COURSE, HIS
ANALYSIS IS ABSURD, JOE BIDEN,
HAND-IN-HAND WITH ANTIFA AND
COMMUNIST, BUT IT HAS A RACIAL
COMPONENT BECAUSE HE'S TALKING
ABOUT WHITE SUBURBS, IT'S FEAR
MONGERING.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT VIOLENCE,
YOU ARE BASICALLY APPEALING TO
PEOPLE'S FEAR, YOU ARE TRYING
TO GET THEM TO SEE THE OTHER
SIDE AS PEOPLE WHO CAN ONLY BE
DEALT WITH, WITH VIOLENCE.
SO I KEEP COMING BACK TO THIS,
IT FEELS LIKE WE ARE KIND OF
STUCK IN GROUNDHOG DAY.
WE HAVE THE SAME DISCUSSION AND
DEBATE ABOUT TRUMP, HIS USE OF
LANGUAGE, VIOLENCE, FOR THE
LAST EIGHT YEARS.
YOU KNOW, WHEN SOMEONE TELLS
YOU WHO THEY ARE, BELIEVE THEM.
AND TO ME THE SCARY THING IS NOT
THAT HE'S DOING THIS, HE'S BEEN
DOING THIS FOR EIGHT YEARS AND
IT STILL APPEALING TO TENS OF
MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, AND
THAT'S A DEEPER QUESTION WE
NEED TO THINK ABOUT AND A
DEEPER CHALLENGE FOR THE BIDEN
CAMPAIGN AND THE DEMOCRATS TO
CONTEND WITH.
>> AND I WOULD ARGUE, DAVID,
FOR THE COUNTRY.
THERE WAS ALSO AN ADDITION TO
THE VIOLENT RHETORIC THERE WAS
THE DEHUMANIZATION OF MIGRANTS.
SAYING SOME MIGRANTS ARE NOT
PEOPLE.
I THINK WE HEARD ENOUGH DONALD
TRUMP SOUND FOR TODAY BUT I
WON'T PLAY ANYMORE BUT HE DID
BRAG ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS
HAVE THE LARGEST DOMESTIC
DEPORTATION OPERATION IN
AMERICAN HISTORY.
I THOUGHT IT WAS NOTABLE THAT
HE TRIED TO ARGUE THAT THE
CRISIS WE ARE SEEING AT OUR
SOUTHERN BORDER HAS AFFECTED
HISPANIC AND AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITIES MORE THAN ANY
OTHERS, THAT SEEMS TO ME LIKE A
VERY STRATEGIC CHOICE.
WE SAT AT THIS TABLE MANY TIMES
TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE
TRUMP CAMPAIGN, THEY KNOW THEY
DON'T HAVE TO WIN LATINO VOTERS
OR WHEN BLACK VOTERS BUT THEY
JUST HAVE TO SIPHON OFF ENOUGH
MARGINS FROM DEMOCRATS TO
CREATE A BUFFER IN THE SWING
STATES.
IT'S ALARMING BOTH BECAUSE
WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
DONALD TRUMP USES THIS RACIST,
XENA PHOBIC RHETORIC BUT IT'S
ALSO DANGEROUS TO ME, SYMONE,
THAT HE IS SLIPPING AND, IN THE
MIDDLE, A CALL TO LATINOS AND
AFRICAN AMERICANS TO USE
IMMIGRATION AS A WEDGE.
>> HE'S PROBABLY BANKING ON
THAT WE ARE STUPID.
THAT BLACK AND LATINO VOTERS
ARE NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION
AND THEY CAN BE SCARED WITH HIS
XENA PHOBIC AND I WOULD ARGUE,
QUITE FRANKLY RACIST RHETORIC,
INTO PITTING THEMSELVES AGAINST
ONE ANOTHER, IN THE SAME BREATH
HE SAYS THESE THINGS, HE WILL
ALSO, YOU KNOW, GO ON TO SAY,
AND REMIND US AND SAY OH, I WAS
VERY GOOD TO THE BLACK
COMMUNITY, BLACK PEOPLE LOVE
ME, REMEMBER HE SAID THAT BLACK
PEOPLE REALLY IDENTIFIED WITH
HIM BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, FROM HIS
PERSPECTIVE IS AFTER HIM, AND
BLACK PEOPLE IDENTIFY WITH
THAT?
I THINK AGAIN, PEOPLE HAVE TO
LOOK AT NOT THE POLLS, BUT WHAT
IS HAPPENING IN COMMUNITIES.
AND THERE IS SOME SKEPTICISM
AMONG BLACK AND LATINO VOTERS
IN VARIOUS SWING STATES ACROSS
THE COUNTRY BUT I THINK PEOPLE
HAVE TO SLOW THEIR ROLE BEFORE
THEY EQUATE THAT WITH FOLKS
VOTING FOR DONALD TRUMP.
AS THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN
SAYING ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, I
HEARD A SPEECH OF HERS AND SHE
SAID THAT DEMOCRATS ARE
FIGHTING THE COUCH.
I THINK THAT IS ACTUALLY THE
MORE CONCERNING THING THESE
DEMOCRATIC CAMPAIGNS, NOT THAT
LARGE SWATHS OF PEOPLE WILL
VOTE FOR TRUMP BUT THAT THEY
COULD STAY HOME.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
I MEAN THAT'S THE BIG ISSUE
FROM THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN,
REMINDING PEOPLE AGAIN AND
AGAIN AND AGAIN, OF THE DANGERS
THAT DONALD TRUMP POSES, THIS
IS A GUY WHOSE MISMANAGEMENT OF
THE PANDEMIC COST THE LIVES OF
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
AMERICANS.
THESE WERE PREVENTABLE DEATH
ACCORDING TO THE SURVEYS BUT
PEOPLE FORGET ABOUT THAT, TO
THE EXTENT THAT SEAN KENNEDY
CAN GO ON AND SAY SHE BETTER
FOUR YEARS AGO, WE ARE WORRIED,
WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE
OR THE COUNTRY WOULD BE AND
YET, SO PEOPLE ARE YOU KNOW,
THEY MAY NOT LOVE BIDEN OR BE
JAZZED BY HIM BUT MAYBE TO
REMEMBER WHAT THOSE TRUMP YEARS
WERE LIKE.
WHAT HE REPRESENTS.
AND HE DOES THIS FIREHOSE OF
OUTRAGE, SO AS SOON AS HE SAYS
SOMETHING OR DO SOMETHING
OUTRAGEOUS, HE DOES 20 OF IN
AND OUT ALL CLOSE TOGETHER,
THEY TURN IT OFF AND IT'S TRUMP
BEING TRUMP AND THE NEW YORK
TIMES EVEN SAID HE TRAFFICS IN
STEREOTYPES. ALL OF THESE
THINGS BLUR TOGETHER AND
POINTING IT OUT AND GETTING
PEOPLE ENERGIZED ABOUT HIM IS
ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES
THAT THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN FACES.
>> THAT GOES TO ONE OF THE
THINGS I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR A
LONG TIME.
WE HAD A CONVERSATION
YESTERDAY, WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THE RECENT, YOU KNOW, THE
RECENT NOT THAT OF COURSE, THAT
THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM FINDS
ITSELF IN IN DEALING WITH HIS
CASES, HE FLOODS THE ZONE IN
SUCH A WAY THAT THE SYSTEM
DOESN'T KNOW, K, WHAT TO DO
WITH ALL OF THE INCOMING, BUT
THEN, HE GETS SORT OF, IN THE
SPACE WHERE, OKAY, HE'S A
FORMER PRESIDENT AND WE'VE
NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE AND IT'S
ALMOST A SENSE THAT HIS TEAM IS
BANKING ON THAT, OUR JUSTICE
SYSTEM, POLITICAL SYSTEM, IS
NOT BUILT TO DEAL WITH AN
ASYMMETRICAL PLAYER LIKE TRUMP,
WHO DOESN'T CARE.
HE'S GOING TO THROW IT OUT
THERE, HE'S GOING TO GO OUT AND
USE THE KIND OF LANGUAGE THAT
HE KNOWS, DELIBERATELY KNOWS
WILL OFFEND AND THAT HE'S LIKE
OKAY, I'M GOING TO LEAVE THIS
NUGGET HERE FOR YOU TO WORK
OUT.
I'M MOVING ON.
AND SO, TO YOUR POINT, I THINK
WE HAVE TO NOW FIND OURSELVES
COLLECTIVELY CLEANSING THIS OUT
OF OUR SYSTEM, AND NOT FOCUSING
SO MUCH ON EVERY LITTLE BIT BUT
STAYING FOCUSED ON THE BIGGER
QUESTION OF, THE MAN SAID HE
WANTS TO BE A DICTATOR, OKAY.
>> HE SAID HE WANTS TO BE A
DICTATOR, HE SAID THERE WON'T
BE ELECTIONS AGAIN, LAST NIGHT,
HE SAID IT WILL BE A BLOODBATH,
WHETHER RATHER ECONOMIC OR
REGULAR.
HE'S TELLING US.
I THINK MICHAEL'S POINT, I
THINK THE SYSTEM COULD HANDLE
TRUMP, IT HAS DECIDED IT'S
GOING TO TREAT HIM DIFFERENTLY
BUT MICHAEL'S OVERALL POINT, I
DON'T THINK WE SHOULD RUSH OVER
AT ALL AND MAYBE WE ALL NEED TO
TAKE A SIP AND THINK ABOUT IT
AS AMERICANS BUT WHY, WHY, WHY,
DO WE FIND IT OH, OKAY, WE HAVE
TO MOVE ONTO THE NEXT THING.
WE CANNOT, AFTER EIGHT, 10,
TREAT HIM LIKE A REGULAR
PERSON.
HE'S NOT REGULAR.
>> AND I JUST POINT OUT
SOMETHING TO YOU, MY WIFE
POINTED OUT TO ME THE OTHER
DAY, SHE SAID, I JUST WANT A
DAY WHEN I CAN GET UP AND NOT
HAVE TO THINK ABOUT TALK ABOUT
REACT TO, OR SEES DONALD TRUMP
ON MY NEWS IN MY PAPERS IN MY
MEDIA, FOLKS, WE HAVE BEEN
INUNDATED AND CONSUMED BY THIS
ONE MAN, FOR EIGHT YEARS.
YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT ANYONE IN
YOUR FAMILY THAT MUCH.
YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR
FRIENDS THAT MUCH.
ASK YOURSELVES, WHEN YOU HAVE A
CONVERSATION, HOW MANY TIMES
DOES SOMEONE RAISE HIS NAME OR
YOU BRING IT UP, THAT IS THE
PROBLEM WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY
RIGHT NOW.
WE NEED TO CLEANSE OURSELVES OF
THIS.
THE ELECTION IS THE WAY YOU DO
IT, IN MY VIEW.
I MEAN, HE'S TELLING US THAT
YOU KNOW, WHAT HIS WORLD IS
GOING TO LOOK LIKE, YOU EITHER
WANT MORE OF THAT, OR YOU
DON'T.
THIS IS FOR ME, A VERY
CLARIFYING MOMENT, BUT --
>> WE'VE HAD OTHER CLARIFYING
MOMENTS.
>> IT'S BEEN A CLARIFYING
COUPLE OF YEARS.
WE ARE AT THE INFLECTION POINT.
WE ARE RIGHT THERE, ELECTIONS
MATTER, TO BE CLEAR, WE NEED TO
SAY THIS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
HIM AND THE NEWS MEDIA IS
TALKING ABOUT HIM BECAUSE HE IS
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND IF
PEOPLE AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION
Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certification
Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:25 am
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:28 pm
https://www.scribd.com/document/7212844 ... from_embed
No. 23-939
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED
STATES
___________________________________
DONALD J. TRUMP,
Petitioner,
v.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Respondent.
____________________________________
On Writ of Certiorari to the United States Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit
______________________________________
BRIEF AMICI CURIAE OF CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN AND FOURTEEN NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENT
Richard W. Painter
Counsel of Record
University of Minnesota Law School
229 19th Avenue, South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 626-9707
rpainter@umn.edu
Table of Contents
TABLE OF AUTHORITIES ................ ii
INTEREST OF AMICI ............. 1
SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT ............... 1
ARGUMENT ................ 3
I. Why the Principle that “No Person is Above
the Law” is the Bedrock of U.S. National
Security ............ 3
II. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Encourage Use of the U.S. Military to
Commit Crimes ............... 12
III. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Damage the Chain of Command ....... 18
IV. Petitioner’s Argument for Qualified Immunity
Is as Problematic as Blanket Immunity ....... 22
V. Lack of Immunity for Official Acts Would Not
Cripple the President in War .............. 25
VI. Conclusion ............. 30
VI. .............
CASES
Boumediene et. al. v. Bush, 553 U.S. 723 (2008) .... 10
Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997) .............. 5
Connally v. General Construction Co., 269 U.S. 385
(1926) ............ 2
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. 557 (2006) ........... 10
Kolender v. Lawson , 461 U.S. 352 (1983) ............. 2
Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) ........... 9
Nixon v. Fitzgerald , 457 U.S. 731 (1982) ....... 6, 2
Papachristou v. City of Jacksonville, 405 U.S. 156
(1972) ............ 2
Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. 2412 (2020) ............ 5,
United States v. Burr, 25 F. Cas. 30 (C.C. Va. 1807)
(No. 14,692d) ............. 5
United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974) ........ 5, 6
United States v. Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir.
2024) (No. 23-3228)........... 23
Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S.
579 (1952)............... 3, 10
CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS & STATUTES
U.S. Const. Art. I, § 6 ..........
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 1 ................ 1
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 2, cl.1 ........... 3
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 3, cl. 5 ..........
U.S. Const. Art. VI, cl. 2 ...............
5 U.S.C. § 3331 ...........
10 U.S.C. § 502 ...........
10 U.S.C. § 890, Art. 90 ..........
10 U.S.C. § 892, Art. 92 ............ 1, 2
18 U.S.C. § 208 ........... 2
18 U.S.C. § 592 ........... 1
18 U.S.C. § 593 ........... 1
18 U.S.C. § 1385 ................ 1
18 U.S.C. § 1512(c) ............
18 U.S.C. § 2441 ................ 2
OTHER AUTHORITIES
Albert W. Alschuler, Limiting the Pardon Power, 63
Ariz. L. Rev. 545 (2021) ........... 16
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 69 (1788) ....... 11
Brief of Petitioner President Donald J. Trump, United
States v. Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir. 2024)
(No.23-3228), cert. granted, No. 23-939 (U.S. Feb.
28, 2024) ............. 1, 5, 8, 9, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27
Brief of Three Former Senior Military Officers and
Executive Branch Officials, as Amici Curiae
Supporting Petitioner, United States v. Trump, No.
23-939 (U.S. filed Mar. 19, 2024). ............ 14
Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter, “You’re
Fired”: Criminal Use of Presidential Removal
Power, 25 NYU J. Leg. & Pub. Pol’y 307 (2023).. 17
Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter,
Presidential Accountability and the Rule of Law:
Can the President Claim Immunity if He Shoots
Someone on Fifth Avenue?, 24 U. Pa. J. Const. L.
93 (2022).......... 4
Hearing Before the Select Committee to Investigate
the January 6th Attack on the United States
Capitol, 118th Cong. (July 12, 2022) .......... 15
John Ford, When Can a Soldier Disobey an Order? ,
War on the Rocks (July 24, 2017),
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-asoldier-
disobey-an-order/ ................ 18
Manual for Courts–Martial, United States (2024
Edition) ................ 18
Oral Argument, United States v. Trump, No. 23-3228
(D.C. Cir. Jan. 9, 2024),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFppEuJRTO4
............. 12
Randolph D. Moss, Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal
Counsel, Memorandum, A Sitting President’s
Amenability to Indictment and Criminal
Prosecution, 24 Op. O.L.C. 222 (Oct. 16, 2000) .. 16,
28
Robert G. Dixon, Jr., Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal
Counsel, Memorandum on Amenability of the
President, Vice President and Other Civil Officers
to Federal Criminal Prosecution While in Office,
Op. O.L.C. 1 (Sept. 24, 1973) .............. 16, 28
Speech by James Iredell at the North Carolina
Ratifying Convention 28 July 1788, in The Debates
in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of
the Federal Constitution as Recommended by the
General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, 4:108
(Elliot, Jonathan ed. 1888) ............... 8
INTEREST OF AMICI
Amici are national security and military
experts signing this brief in their individual
capacities.1 Amici are listed in the Appendix.
Amici are filing this brief to address the vital
national security interests that may be impacted by
the Court’s decision in this case. As national security
experts, amici have an interest in ensuring that the
Court recognizes the import of presidential
accountability for the integrity of the chain of the
command of the U.S. military.
SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
Petitioner argues that as former President of
the United States, he is immune to all criminal
charges, even after leaving office. Brief of Petitioner
President Donald J. Trump at 10, United States v.
Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir. 2024) (No.23-3228),
cert. granted, No. 23-939 (U.S. Feb. 28, 2024) (“Brief
of Petitioner”). He asks this Court to embrace a theory
of presidential authority, according to which no
prosecutor or court can hold a former president
accountable for either private or official capacity
crimes committed while he is in office, and he claims
this blanket immunity should endure permanently,
including after a president has left office. As national
1 No counsel for a party authored this brief in whole or in part,
and no party or counsel for a party made a monetary contribution
intended to fund its preparation or submission. No person other
than the amici or their counsel made a monetary contribution to
the preparation or submission of this brief.
security professionals and military experts, amici
argue that Petitioner’s broad view of immunity would
imperil U.S. national security, weaken the authority
of the President, and throw confusion into the chain of
command of the armed forces, which the President, as
Commander-in-Chief, commands. This Court must
unequivocally reject the proposed doctrine of
presidential immunity and leave no doubt in the
minds of Petitioner, the public, and all future
occupants of the Oval Office that the President, like
all individuals subject to the reach of the U.S. legal
system, is not above the law.
Of particular concern is the potential adverse
impact of presidential immunity on the principle of
military obedience to civil authority, the foundation
for our civil-military relations since the inception of
the Republic. Allowing a president to issue orders
requiring subordinates to commit criminal acts or
omissions would wreak havoc on the military chain of
command and result in an erosion of confidence in the
legality of presidential orders. It would also create the
potential for disparate interpretations of the duty to
obey orders, thereby risking military discipline. While
the duty of obedience does not extend to patently
illegal orders, an order issued by the President himself
would exert a powerful gravitational pull and thus
even if of dubious legality would create uncertainty in
the ranks. Holding everyone in the chain of command,
including the President, to the same principles of
accountability under the criminal laws of the United
States is essential for assuring the legality of military
orders and for providing the reassurance for all levels
of the chain of command of that legality.
2
Amici also unequivocally urge this Court to
reject any doctrine of qualified immunity for which
Petitioner may now be arguing in his brief to the
Court. Any form of immunity doctrine is both
unnecessary to protect the interests of the presidency
and ultimately dangerous for U.S. national security.
This Court should reject Petitioner’s theory of
absolute criminal immunity and should resist any
temptation to adopt a weaker version of this same
doctrine in the form of a qualified immunity doctrine.
ARGUMENT
I. Why the Principle that “No Person is Above the
Law” is the Bedrock of U.S. National Security
To protect against enemies, both foreign and
domestic, the Framers of the U.S. Constitution
imbued the office of the presidency with
extraordinary powers. Important among these is the
President’s role as Commander-in-Chief of the armed
forces and state militias when called into federal
service. U.S. Const. Art. II, § 2, cl.1. As this Court has
recognized, it is the rare case in which it would be
appropriate for the judiciary to interfere with
exercises of Commander-in-Chief authority. This
Court has rightly adopted a broad attitude of
deference towards executive branch action in matters
of war powers. However, when that authority is
turned “inward” and exercised toward domestic ends,
federal courts have been more than willing to reject
the legality of presidential action. See Youngstown
Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. 579, 644-45
(1952) (Jackson, J., concurring).
3
The U.S. Constitution establishes two primary
safeguards to protect against the risk of a runaway
presidency. First, a president cannot continue in
office without being reelected. Second, the
Constitution provides that a president may be
removed from office by a vote to impeach in the House
and a two-thirds vote to convict in the Senate.
Yet these two safeguards are not sufficient to
protect the country from the risk of dictatorship, since
a truly corrupt president might attempt to commit
crimes to manipulate the vote as well as to deprive
the impeachment process of effect. See Claire O.
Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter, Presidential
Accountability and the Rule of Law: Can the
President Claim Immunity if He Shoots Someone on
Fifth Avenue? , 24 U. PA. J. CONST. L. 93, 105 (2022).
This suggests that the basic principle that the
President must comply with the law, on pain of
criminal sanctions following conviction for an alleged
offense, is an even more fundamental check on the
presidency than either the vote or impeachment,
since it serves as the protection for those two
constitutional safeguards. Put otherwise, the
principle that no person is above the law serves as the
ultimate protector of U.S. democracy, since it
underpins the constitutional safeguards against
destruction of the Republic by authoritarian forces
within. The concept of immunity is antithetical to that
critical principle. And while the Constitution bestows
a limited immunity from criminal prosecution on
members of Congress in the Speech and Debate
4
Clause, U.S. Const., Art. I, § 6, it nowhere restricts
the power of Congress to enact federal criminal
statutes binding on the executive branch, including
the President.
On at least four occasions justices of this Court
have articulated the critical principle that no person,
including the President, is above the law. The first
time was in 1807 in the case of United States v. Burr ,
25 F. Cas. 30, 34 (C.C. Va. 1807) (No. 14,692d)
(Marshall, C.J.), in which Chief Justice Marshall held
that President Jefferson was amenable to criminal
subpoena issued in the treason trial of his former Vice
President, Aaron Burr. The second time was in 1974,
at the height of the Watergate crisis, where this Court
said that President Nixon must comply with a
prosecutor’s subpoena of White House tape
recordings. United States v. Nixon , 418 U.S. 683, 713
(1974). The third time was in 1997, where this Court
held that the President is amenable to civil suit for
personal conduct involving sexual harassment while
the President previously held a state office. Clinton v.
Jones , 520 U.S. 681, 705-706 (1997). The fourth time
was in Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. 2412, 2431(2020),
in which this Court held that a New York State grand
jury was entitled to subpoena a third party
accounting firm regarding the President’s personal
financial records as part of a criminal investigation
into possible crimes.
The current case, however, presents an issue
never previously before this Court because, as
Petitioner points out, no president before Petitioner
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6
has ever been criminally prosecuted for official acts
allegedly committed in office. Brief of Petitioner, at 3.
The question is whether this Court will decide the
matter of criminal indictment of a former president
for official capacity crimes in the same way it has
decided the foregoing four immunity cases, or
whether it will analogize a criminal indictment to civil
suits against a former president for actions within the
“outer perimeter” of a president’s official duties.
Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731, 756 (1982) (holding
that a former president has absolute immunity from
civil suits for official acts).
A footnote in Nixon v. Fitzgerald emphasizes
the distinction between civil actions seeking to impose
liability for official capacity acts and the question
confronted here, namely presidential amenability to
criminal liability for official capacity acts. The
footnote points out that there is a greater public
interest in prosecuting crimes than in allowing an
individual plaintiff to sue for damages: “The Court
has recognized before that there is a lesser public
interest in actions for civil damages than, for
example, in criminal prosecutions.” 457 U.S. 731, 754
n37, citing United States v. Gillock, 445 U.S. 360, 371-
373 (1980) and United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. at
711-712, 712 n.19.
The distinction between criminal and civil
enforcement is also highly relevant for defending U.S.
national security interests. Rarely if ever would a
national security interest be protected by a private
lawsuit for money damages. But national security
interests demand that federal officials remain equally
accountable to public assertions of prohibitory norms.
Making a former president immune from criminal
prosecution could make the presidency itself a
profound threat to national security, as it would
permit a president to use the great power of the office
to further personal interests, such as securing
reelection or attempting to avoid accountability for
criminal abuse of power. As national security
professionals, we emphatically reject the sweeping
proposition that all U.S. presidents enjoy legal
immunity from criminal prosecution to the “outer
perimeter” of their official duties. It is no
exaggeration to say that this proposition is potentially
the most dangerous that has ever been advanced in
a court of law by any U.S. official. Indeed, it is
a proposition that would convert the presidency
from the greatest protector of the nation to its
single greatest threat. It is also a profoundly
unethical proposal. To establish the President as
singularly unfettered by the same generally
applicable criminal laws that apply to every other
member of society erects an example of
lawlessness among the nation’s highest officials.
Such lawlessness erodes rule of law values where
such values are most needed.
That the President of the United States is
subject to the law is clear from the Constitution
itself. The Supremacy Clause of the U.S.
Constitution, Art. VI, cl. 2 provides: “This
Constitution, and the laws of the United States
which shall be made in pursuance thereof . . .
shall be the supreme law of the land,” thus making
clear that it is the law, not the President, that
7
8
is supreme. The Take Care Clause of Article II of the
Constitution also imposes upon the President the
obligation to ensure that the laws of the United States
are enforced. U.S. Const. Art. II, § 3, cl. 5
(the President “shall take Care that the Laws be
faithfully executed”).
The constitutional supremacy of the law, not
the President or any other person, is consistent with
the intent of the Framers. As James Iredell explained
in his speech to the North Carolina convention
ratifying the Constitution, it was not necessary for the
United States to have a privy council imposing
constraints on the exercise of presidential power, as it
was to constrain the King in Great Britain. Unlike the
King, the President is not above the law:
Under our Constitution we are much happier
. . .. No man has an authority to injure another
with impunity. No man is better than his
fellow-citizens, nor can pretend to any
superiority over the meanest man in the
country. If the President does a single act by
which the people are prejudiced, he is
punishable himself, and no other man merely
to screen him. If he commits any misdemeanor
in office, he is impeachable, removable from
office, and incapacitated to hold any office of
honor, trust, or profit. If he commits any crime,
he is punishable by the laws of his country, and
in capital cases may be deprived of his life.
This being the case, there is not the same
9
reason here for having a council which exists in
England.
Speech by James Iredell at the North Carolina
Ratifying Convention 28 July 1788, in The Debates in
the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the
Federal Constitution as Recommended by the
General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, 4:108–
10 (Elliot, Jonathan ed. 1888)
Petitioner presents this Court with a very
different vision, according to which the President is
immune from all criminal laws enacted by Congress,
and therefore no court can constrain the President or
impose accountability on him for acts or omissions
that violate federal criminal law. See Petitioner’s
Brief, at 20.
Petitioner’s bid for presidential immunity is
not only an unprecedented assertion of presidential
authority, but also a declaration of the impotence of
federal courts with respect to matters touching
executive authority, even matters placed explicitly
within the jurisdiction of Article III courts by
Congress. Petitioner does not attempt to disguise his
disdain for Article III courts, frankly declaring that
the President’s official acts “can never be examinable
by the courts.” Petitioner’s Brief, at 3 quoting Chief
Justice Marshall in Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137
at 166 (1803). The view of the role of Article III courts
Petitioner is proposing would revolutionize their core
function, taking them back to the days before Chief
Justice Marshall established the power of judicial
review in Marbury v. Madison. It is clearly within the
power of Article III courts to say what the law is, Id.
at 177, and to enjoin actions of the executive that
violate the law, Youngstown v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. at
588-589. Petitioner’s conception of immunity would
also leave individuals without a remedy even for
patently illegal violations of their constitutional and
statutory rights. Federal courts routinely hear cases
prosecuting executive branch officials for violating
federal criminal law, and unsurprisingly not a single
case cited by Petitioner even contains dicta that a
former president is immune from prosecution if he
commits federal crimes while in office.
While Petitioner insists that Article III courts
“lack authority to sit in judgment over a President’s
official acts,” Brief of Petitioner, at 11, he allows that
federal courts may review the validity of the acts of
subordinate executive officials. Id. at 16, 20. There is
no basis for restricting this Court’s authority to
actions against presidential subordinates, and doing
so would contradict basic criminal law principles of
accomplice liability. This Court has willingly told both
presidents, and their subordinates, what they may
and may not do under the Constitution and the
various laws of the United States. See Youngstown
Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. at 588-589;
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld , 548 U.S. 557, 633 (2006)
(holding that the Guantanamo military commissions
violate the guarantee owed to each detainee under
international law to be heard by a “regularly
constituted court.”); Boumediene et. al. v. Bush , 553
U.S. 723, 792 (2008) (holding that prisoners held at
Guantanamo Bay have a right to the writ of habeas
10
corpus). The authority of this Court and other courts
to enforce federal criminal law is no different.
The President’s duty to conform his conduct to
the law is also reflected in the oath he must take
before assuming office – itself a requirement of Article
II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution – to “preserve,
protect and defend the Constitution of the United
States.” U.S. Const. Art. II, § 1. What could be a
clearer demonstration that the President must be
subject to, and not superior to, the law of the land
than this provision requiring the President to swear
allegiance to that self-same Constitution? Members of
the armed services likewise are required to take an
oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies,
foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the
President. 10 U.S.C. § 502. But only enlisted members
swear an oath to obey the orders of the President. Id.
By contrast, commissioned officers swear an oath that
does not mention the President, according to which
they promise to “support and defend the Constitution
of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic. . ..” 5 U.S.C. § 3331.
The doctrine of substantive presidential
immunity for which Petitioner argues would exactly
reverse this constitutionally binding structure. By
Petitioner’s lights, if he, presently a candidate for the
presidency, wins the election and takes the oath of
office in January of 2025, he is licensed to do precisely
what the oath suggests he must abhor, namely to
govern the country without fidelity to the law and to
ignore the Constitution.
11
12
Any political arrangement that grants broad
command authority to a single individual, as
Hamilton says in Federalist 69, “would be
unsustainable and would risk certain dictatorship if
the same breadth of powers were extended without
the assurance of accountability under the
law.” Hamilton further says in that same Federalist
Paper: “The [President of the United States]
would be amenable to personal punishment and
disgrace; the person of the [king of Great Britain]
is sacred and inviolable.” Alexander Hamilton,
Federalist No. 69 (1788) The very extent of the
President’s power as Commander-in-Chief thus
necessitates that he be held to the same
standards as any other citizen with regard to clear
violations of generally applicable criminal laws,
absent an explicit congressional exemption.
Presidential accountability under the law is not
only compatible with broad deference to the
President in matters of war and peace; it is required
to sustain such deference.
II. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Encourage Use of the U.S. Military to
Commit Crimes
One of the most serious risks of presidential
immunity for official capacity acts arises from the
potential that the President may abuse his
Commander-in-Chief authority, thereby placing the
integrity of the armed forces at risk. Imagine a
president determined to use the U.S. military to
commit crimes against political opponents; to
constrain and control domestic civilian populations in
13
violation of federal criminal law; to coerce foreign
nations into supporting his bid for reelection by
engaging in criminally proscribed corrupt practices;
to falsify domestic election results in an effort to
criminally defraud the United States; and to coerce
the legislative and judicial branches of government
into supporting his friends and punishing his
enemies. While the Posse Comitatus Act, 18 U.S.C. §
1385 forbids use of the armed forces for civilian law-enforcement
purposes unless authorized by the
Constitution or laws of the United States, the
President could issue an illegal order for this purpose
without ramification if the Petitioner’s sought-for
immunity for official acts were to be granted, and that
order might very well be considered by military
subordinates as falling within the “authorized by the
Constitution” exception to the Act.
Or consider the shocking example of the
President ordering a Navy Seal Team Six
assassination of a political rival, which Judge Pan
discussed with Petitioner’s counsel in oral argument
of this case in the Court of Appeals for the District of
Columbia. Oral Argument at 07:35, United States. v.
Trump, No. 23-3228 (D.C. Cir. Jan. 9, 2024),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFppEuJRTO4
[https://perma.cc/KB94-V634]. Such an offense could
also be committed against members of Congress who
possess the authority and the duty to serve as a check
on executive power. What would become of
impeachment as a check and balance if a president
could order Seal Team Six to intimidate members of
Congress and then enjoy immunity unless he was
impeached by a majority of the House and convicted
14
by two-thirds of the Senate? Who in Congress would
even dare to try to impeach the President under such
circumstances? Likewise, the judiciary could be cowed
into submission and the independence of this very
Court threatened by fear of violence inflicted on its
members. The rule of law will be threatened unless
federal courts have protection against intimidation by
a criminal president in command of Seal Team Six or
any other unit of the U.S. Armed Forces.
Even the three senior military officers and
executive branch officials who have filed an amicus
brief in this case in support of Petitioner take no stand
on the presidential immunity argument made by
Petitioner, choosing to focus entirely on the illegality
of a presidential order to assassinate a political rival:
[T]he President has no authority to order the
military to assassinate someone because he is
a political rival. Nor would the military carry
out such an unlawful order. Under the Uniform
Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), any military
officer who carried out or issued such an order
would commit the crime of murder. One such
limitation is that the President has no
authority to order the military to assassinate
someone because he is a political rival. Nor
would the military carry out such an unlawful
order. Under the Uniform Code of Military
Justice (UCMJ), any military officer who
carried out or issued such an order would
commit the crime of murder. In addition,
Executive Order 12333 prohibits any person
employed by the U.S. government from
15
engaging in, or conspiring to engage in,
assassination.
Brief of Three Former Senior Military Officers and
Executive Branch Officials, as Amici Curiae
Supporting Petitioner, United States v. Trump, No.
23-939 (U.S. filed Mar. 19, 2024), 3. They conclude:
“Whether or not a President has the immunity
claimed by Petitioner in this case—a question amici
do not address in this brief—a President cannot order
the military to assassinate a political rival and have
that order carried out.” Id. at 1.
This conclusion is misleading for two reasons.
First, the President could certainly issue an order to
assassinate a political rival, and when vested with the
immunity sought by Petitioner, the risk he would do
so is necessarily increased. Second, there is simply no
guarantee a subordinate would refuse to obey such an
order once the President who issued it could claim
immunity from any legal consequence. And there is
no guarantee that the principle of presidential
immunity might then be mistakenly claimed as
authority by subordinates carrying out the
President’s claimed immunity.
Thus, even former military officers and
executive branch officials who purport to support
Petitioner in this case make clear that use of the
military to commit a crime such as murder would be
illegal and any military officer who carried out such
an order could be held legally accountable. Note that
these amici decline to address the question whether
the President would also be guilty of murder. They
acknowledge the illegality of such an order yet avoid
16
the obvious corollary that if the President is
emboldened by immunity to issue an illegal order, the
military command structure will be infected with
distrust and disarray.
The main body of this case, of which the current
matter is but an interlocutory appeal, concerns
criminal prosecution for an alleged conspiracy to
defraud the United States. The case therefore
highlights the very real risk of a sitting president
accused of committing crimes to remain in office. The
risk of a president who commits crimes to avoid the
transition of power is one of the gravest our
democracy may face. Here we wish to highlight the
risk that such crimes could be committed by making
use of the U.S. Armed Forces. The President might
deploy troops to control polls, for example, in violation
of 18 U.S.C. § 592 and 18 U.S.C. § 593 (interference
by armed forces), as the present Petitioner himself
once discussed in a December 18, 2020 meeting in the
Oval Office according to the Report of the U.S. House
January 6 Committee. See Hearing Before the Select
Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on
the United States Capitol, 117th Cong. 2d. sess. 4-5
(July 12, 2022),
https://www.congress.gov/117/chrg/CHRG-
117hhrg49355/CHRG-117hhrg49355.pdf
[https://perma.cc/86SN-TK3J]. A criminal president
could ignore these and other laws and use military
force to coerce voters, to coerce state officials counting
ballots, or to obstruct the official proceedings in which
state legislatures and Congress certify results of
elections. 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c) (criminal obstruction of
an official proceeding).
17
Moreover, a president who has committed
crimes while in office has incentive to remain in office
to deter or entirely thwart the moment at which he is
brought to justice. The risk to democracy, and hence
to U.S. national security, is gravest from a sitting
president who seeks to undermine the transfer of
power, and even greater from a president already
under scrutiny for criminal acts. By removing liability
for the criminal misuse of official capacity acts, this
Court could be eliminating the last protection from
dictatorship cognized by our constitutional system.
The blanket presidential immunity Petitioner
seeks is rendered wholly unnecessary by the fact that
a sitting president is already insulated from
prosecution in numerous ways. The Justice
Department policy forbidding indictment of a sitting
president renders justice against a president who has
committed crimes in office exceedingly challenging
and cumbersome. For example, see Robert G. Dixon,
Jr., Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal Counsel,
Memorandum on Amenability of the President, Vice
President and Other Civil Officers to Federal
Criminal Prosecution While in Office , Op. O.L.C. 1, 32
(Sept. 24, 1973) (unpublished memo) (“1973 OLC
Memo”); Randolph D. Moss, Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of
Legal Counsel, Memorandum, A Sitting President’s
Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution ,
24 Op. O.L.C. 222, 223 (Oct. 16, 2000) (“2000 OLC
Memo”). In addition, a president can pardon his
associates accused of wrongdoing and might pardon
himself, even if self-pardon is of dubious legality. See
Albert W. Alschuler, Limiting the Pardon Power , 63
ARIZ. L. REV. 545, 553-560 (2021) (discussing self18
pardons). Finally, the President as head of the
executive branch appoints, and can remove, senior
officials in the Department of Justice, although his
firing a prosecutor with the intent to obstruct a
criminal investigation of himself or his associates
could itself constitute a crime such as obstruction of
justice. See Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W.
Painter, “You’re Fired”: Criminal Use of Presidential
Removal Power , 25 NYU J. LEG. & PUB. POL’Y 307,
347 (2023).
III. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Damage the Chain of Command
Presidential immunity for official capacity
crimes would create an untenable dilemma for every
member of the military chain of command ordered to
execute an order, particularly if officers disagree as to
its legality under criminal law. Because any order
issued by a president carries with it a presumption of
legality and exerts a powerful gravitational force on
its recipients, the risk of such disparate
interpretations of the duty to obey, even if the order
appears on its face to violate federal criminal law,
would be exacerbated if the President were
unrestrained in the orders he could issue and could
therefore violate the law with impunity.
Failure to obey a lawful order for any
individual in the military chain of command whose
duty it is to obey such order is a serious offense,
subject to prosecution by general courts martial. 10
U.S.C. § 890, Art. 90 10 U.S.C. § 892, Art. 92 (in
the
19
case of a willful violation). In times of war, willful
failure to follow certain orders can result in a sentence
of death. § 890, Art. 90; § 892, Art. 92. Yet the absolute
duty to follow orders is predicated upon the
lawfulness of such orders. Any soldier receiving
illegal orders has a duty to refuse to carry out those
orders, and no one committing atrocities against a
civilian population, for example, can hope to achieve
an acquittal at court-martial on the basis of following
orders.
At the same time, the illegality of a military
order is an affirmative defense to a refusal to obey. It
is presumed that orders are lawful, and a defendant
charged with disobeying orders bears the burden of
establishing illegality. See Manual for Courts–
Martial, United States (2024 Edition), pt. IV, para.
16.c.(2)(a)(iv,
https://jsc.defense.gov/Portals/99/2024%20MCM%20f
iles/MCM%20(2024%20ed)%20(2024_01_02)%20(adj
usted%20bookmarks).pdf [https://perma.cc/DQ3VMDYR];
see also, John Ford, When Can a Soldier
Disobey an Order?, War on the Rocks (July 24, 2017),
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-asoldier-
disobey-an-order/ [https://perma.cc/984YV68V].
Any subordinate inclined to disobey an order
issued by the President assumes a grave risk of
prosecution with a heavy burden to establish the
order was in fact illegal.
Furthermore, obedience to an order that is in
fact unlawful is a complete defense in military law
unless the illegality is known to the subordinate or so
patently clear that the subordinate must have known
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it was illegal. In the case of an illegal order, the mere
fact that it was issued by a president would guarantee
uncertainty as to its legality, with the result that
obedience could provide a complete defense to any
criminal prosecution arising therefrom. This sharply
reduces the likelihood that a subordinate officer will
refuse to obey a president’s orders, even though
immunity from prosecution increases the incentive of
the President to issue illegal orders. Military
personnel who instinctively rely on the validity of an
order that is passed through the chain of command
can nonetheless be prosecuted for obeying the order if
it turns out to be illegal.
The foregoing taken together suggests that the
presidential immunity from criminal prosecution
asserted by Petitioner would create multiple
problems for the command function and good order
and discipline of the armed services. First, if
subordinates in the chain of command are aware that
the Commander-in-Chief is immune from
prosecution, some may assume this renders any order
legal for purposes of their duty to obey. Others may
reach a different conclusion, especially as senior
officers in the chain of command will tend to rely on
legal advisors to determine legality. This could easily
result in chaos, with different commanders in the
same chain reaching disparate conclusions as to their
duty to obey or disobey. Second, the mere knowledge
that the President enjoys immunity may lead
subordinates to question their duty to obey
presidential orders, something that almost never
normally occurs. In short, the expectation that the
President’s duty to the Constitution necessitates that
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all orders comply with the law and the accountability
the President would face for legal violations provides
the basis for the near absolute trust subordinates
place in the legality of presidential orders.
Third, because Petitioner emphasizes that the
immunity he asserts would in no way protect
subordinates who commit crimes in obedience to
presidential orders, they may fear liability for
executing illegal orders, thus causing hesitation to
execute other lawful commands of the President and
civilian officers. Often there is little time to assess
whether an order is legal; a subordinate must be able
to rely on the legality of all presidential orders, yet
this reliance would be unavailable were Petitioner’s
theory to hold sway. Worry within the command chain
about unconstrained presidential crime could thus
have devastating consequences for discipline within
the ranks.
Finally, there are always those who will follow
presidential orders even if they believe doing so will
violate federal criminal law, an inevitable
consequence of the extremely powerful presumption
of obedience to the Commander-in-Chief. Illegality
from the top does not come with a label marking it as
such. Knowledge that the President is immune from
criminal prosecution for official acts, even after he
leaves office, would add weight to this presumptive
obligation of obedience. Obedience could be justified
as consistent with the oath to support and defend the
Constitution as the order emanated from a
constitutionally designated president who was
permitted to issue the order even if inconsistent with
other laws. Military and civilian officers might see
presidential immunity as a constitutional blank check
to issue any order, even orders requiring subordinates
to commit crimes, including crimes that endanger
national security.
Absolute or qualified immunity of a president
could also be mixed with improper use of
the pardon power to enable a corrupt president to use
the military to accomplish otherwise unlawful
objectives. For example, in the Seal Team Six
assassination scenario, the team members would not
need to fear the consequences of committing murder
if the order to commit the murder were coupled with
the promise of a pardon. Many other scenarios,
including torture of prisoners and detainees, could be
realized in which the pardon power is used by a
legally unbound, immunized president to subvert the
military’s allegiance to the Constitution, the rule of
law, and military discipline.
IV. Petitioner’s Argument for Qualified Immunity
Is as Problematic as Blanket Immunity
Petitioner proposes, as a second-choice
alternative to absolute immunity, a burdensome and
unnecessary standard of qualified immunity that
once again seeks to place the President above
ordinary citizens with regard to “generally applicable”
criminal law. Brief of Petitioner, at 37-40. This
argument attempts to import into the criminal arena
22
23
the holding of cases immunizing the President from
civil suit for actions extending to the “outer
perimeter” of official capacity. Nixon v. Fitzgerald,
457 U.S. at 756. Petitioner further argues, as a
second-best alternative, for a “functional” view of
immunity, according to which officials with a broad
range of duties should have broader immunity from
criminal prosecution than officials with less
responsibility and less discretion. Brief of Petitioner,
at 46, citing Scheuer v. Rhodes, 416 U.S. 232, 247
(1974). The primary case he cites for this, namely
Scheuer, is only tangentially relevant to the current
case, given that it is a civil damages case against a
governor. Amici are not aware of any legal precedent
applying the doctrine of qualified immunity to public
officials in criminal cases.
Second, Petitioner claims that as President he
is entitled to a “qualified immunity” in the sense that
to hold a president criminally liable, there must be a
clarity in the law above and beyond the exacting
standard of clarity that courts already impose in
criminal cases. Brief of Petitioner, at 46-47.
Petitioner offers little support for this proposition,
however, citing only civil cases brought against public
officials, not criminal cases. Petitioner also does not
advance a coherent argument as to why the
President, or any other public official, is entitled to
insist on greater clarity in the criminal law than that
required in the criminal trial of any other citizen.
Ambiguous criminal statutes already are void for
vagueness under the Due Process Clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment. See Kolender v. Lawson,
461 U.S. 352, 357 (1983); Papachristou v. City of
Jacksonville , 405 U.S. 156 (1972); Connally v.
General Construction Co. , 269 U.S. 385 (1926).
Another possible form of “qualified immunity”
would be to allow for such immunity generally but
then deny it only in those cases in which the
President’s motive was to remain in office. Petitioner
argues that inquiring into a president’s motive for an
official act is impermissible, Brief of Petitioner, at 42,
45, and then claims that the D.C. Circuit Court held
that he was not immune from prosecution because he
was “determined to remain in power.” Id. at 48-49. But
the D.C. Circuit Court opinion does not once refer to
a president’s motive as a factor in ruling on whether
he is immune from criminal prosecution after leaving
office. Rather, the Court concludes that Petitioner’s
theory of absolute immunity from prosecution for
official acts “is unsupported by precedent, history or
the text and structure of the Constitution.” United
States v. Trump , 91 F.4th 1173, 1208 (D.C. Cir. 2024)
(No. 23-3228), cert. granted , No. 23-939, 2024 WL
833184 (U.S. Feb. 28, 2024). Contrary to Petitioner’s
contention, the Court of Appeals did not consider the
fact that Petitioner’s motive for his actions was to
remain in power beyond the expiration of his term,
however dangerous for democracy such a motive for a
president’s crimes might be.
Just as with the absolute immunity approach
for which Petitioner argues, qualified immunity from
prosecution based on the President’s office is a
dangerous doctrine to adopt, even if more selective
than absolute immunity. Perhaps more importantly,
the interests Petitioner claims would be advanced by
24
25
qualified immunity are already addressed by
traditional limitations on criminal liability. Thus,
there is no credible justification to support
Petitioner’s argument that a different and higher
level of clarity as to a federal criminal statute must be
required when the law is applied to the President
than when the same law is enforced by the
Department of Justice against an ordinary citizen.
The proposed standard, which would require
Congress to speak with specificity as to whether a
criminal statute applied to the President in every
case, would import chaos into both the legislative
drafting process for federal crimes and would
effectively nullify dozens of existing crimes where
Congress had no advanced knowledge of the need to
expressly say the statute applies to the President. It
is inconceivable that there would be one standard of
constitutional due process in cases brought against
the President and his subordinates and a different
and lower standard for cases brought against
everyone else. This could raise complex issues of equal
protection and due process for any other citizen
prosecuted for violating the same statutory provision.
V. Lack of Immunity for Official Acts Would Not
Cripple the President in War
Petitioner suggests that in the absence of
immunity for official acts, any number of presidents
throughout history might have been prosecuted for
war crimes, based on political accusations that they
were committing “crimes.” Brief of Petitioner, at 22 &
ff. However, being “prosecuted” is not the same as
being convicted. Even setting aside the exaggerated
nature of Petitioner’s argument, a conviction for war
crimes requires both the judgment of a grand jury
that a crime was committed, denial of a motion to
dismiss by an Article III judge, and a unanimous
finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt by trial
jury. But if these prosecutorial burdens are satisfied,
there is no plausible reason a president should be
immune from the criminal consequences of ordering a
war crime, a conclusion reinforced by the fact that the
federal War Crimes Act makes no exemption for the
President or any other high-ranking federal official.
Examples cited by Petitioner are inherently
misleading, as none involve orders that were so
clearly unlawful as to support criminal prosecution.
Pointing to President Roosevelt’s relocation and
detention of Japanese Americans during World War
II; President Clinton’s launching of military strikes in
the Middle East on the eve of critical developments in
the scandal involving his affair with a White House
intern; the Bush Administration providing what
was subsequently understood to be false
information to Congress about weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq; and President Obama’s
targeted killing of U.S. citizens abroad based on
a determination they were enemy belligerent
operatives, among others. Brief of Petitioner, at 23.
Petitioner points out that “In all of these instances,
the President’s political opponents routinely accuse
him, and currently accuse President Biden, of
'criminal' behavior in his official acts. In each such
case, those opponents later came to power with
ample incentive to charge him. But no former
26
27
President was ever prosecuted for official acts—until
2023.” Brief of Petitioner, at 23-24. For this reason,
Petitioner is convinced that criminal prosecution of a
president of any sort “presents a mortal threat to the
Presidency’s independence.” Id. at 25.
Yet in trotting out this parade of horribles,
Petitioner completely ignores the fact that there is a
difference between acts that are actually criminal and
acts that are merely said to be criminal by political
adversaries. None of these decisions resulted in
criminal indictment or prosecution for the obvious
reason that there was a substantial gap between
political hyperbole and evidence indicating violation
of federal criminal law. Moreover, it is not necessary
for the President to have blanket immunity to be
protected from criminal prosecution for acts ordered,
solicited, or committed in times of war. Nor would
such blanket immunity be desirable. The My Lai
massacre in which U.S. troops killed as many as 500
unarmed villagers in Vietnam in 1968 is a reminder
that U.S. troops have committed atrocities in warfare
and that criminal liability is a critical part of holding
anyone accountable who would engage in such acts.
Any president who ordered or encouraged a massacre
of civilians would rightly be subject to prosecution for
his role in such a heinous act. Furthermore, any
subordinate who acted on such orders should not be
able to claim a “following orders” defense—a defense
that has been consistently rejected, including
famously at the Nuremberg trials. See 10 U.S.C. §
892, Art. 92.
Indeed, the War Crimes Act of 1996, 18 U.S.C.
§ 2441, imposes liability on U.S. military personnel
for grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, or
Common Article III of that Convention, for acts
committed outside the territorial jurisdiction of the
United States. This provision addresses cases in
which crimes come to light only after the individual
separates from the armed forces and is no longer
subject to military criminal jurisdiction. Liability
under such circumstances is consistent with national
security interests, and absolute or qualified immunity
for the President would contradict this important
principle. Such an asymmetry of criminal
accountability is not justified and is not supported by
the tradition of command authority as restricted to
lawful actions. While a president should be tried in a
federal court, rather than a court martial, for his
crimes, the principle remains that no person is above
the law.
Presidential powers under Article II, moreover,
can be accommodated in the drafting and
interpretation of criminal statutes. Blanket immunity
is not necessary. A president, for example, has the
power to share classified information with a foreign
power in furtherance of U.S. national security
interests. A president who shares classified
information with a foreign power in return for a bribe,
however, may violate both the Espionage Act and
bribery statutes. The fact that some criminal statutes
must be construed to be consistent with lawful use of
Article II power does not mean that the President has
absolute immunity from prosecution for crimes
committed in office.
28
29
Furthermore, Congress can exempt the
President from criminal statutes if it believes a
criminal statute imposes an undue infringement on
Article II power. For example, the President and Vice
President are exempt from the criminal financial
conflict of interest statute, 18 U.S.C. § 208, which
makes it a crime for executive branch officials to
participate in a government matter in which they or
their spouse have a financial interest. If this Court
believes that a specific criminal statute
unconstitutionally intrudes upon exclusive Article II
powers of the President, the Court can hold that the
statute in all or in part does not apply to the
President. The absolute immunity theory proposed
by Petitioner is wholly unnecessary.
As Petitioner notes, not once has a criminal
indictment against a former president been
submitted to a grand jury or even contemplated for
crimes committed in wartime. Brief of Petitioner at
6-7. The current prosecutions of Petitioner are
similarly unrelated to the Commander-in-Chief
function of the President, as none of the acts for which
the former President has been indicted were
performed in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief.
The Department of Justice has several times
examined the risk of meritless criminal charges being
filed against a president, and never even hinted that
lifetime immunity from prosecution was necessary.
Instead, the Department reached the conclusion that
a sitting president cannot be indicted while in office.
The Office of Legal Counsel memoranda opining that
a current president cannot be indicted specifically
30
point out that a president can be prosecuted after
leaving office . See 1973 OLC Memo, at 32; 2000 OLC
Memo, at 255-256, 259. Prohibiting indictment and
trial during the term of office sufficiently protects the
President’s interest in ensuring the focus of his or her
duties will not be unduly burdened by having to
mount a defense to a criminal accusation while in
office, while protecting society’s interest in a fair and
impartial adjudication of alleged criminal misconduct
at a point in time when it will have no such adverse
impact on the nation.
The appropriate response to politicized
prosecutions is judicial oversight. Courts oversee
criminal cases to prevent prosecutorial abuses,
including selective or discriminatory prosecution,
indictments that are not based on probable cause or
fail to properly allege an offense, insufficient evidence
of guilt, and unethical prosecutorial conduct.
Members of Congress, cabinet members, and federal
judges all could be exposed to baseless criminal
charges, yet none is entitled to absolute immunity for
their official acts. Indeed, this argument for making
the President exempt from criminal process has
already been presented before this Court by this very
same Petitioner, Donald Trump, and it was rejected.
Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. at 2427-2429.
VI. Conclusion
Amici urge this Court to strengthen, not
weaken, the legal and moral authority of the
President, particularly as Commander-in-Chief of the
armed forces, by holding the President like every
other American accountable under the criminal laws
of the United States. Amici recognize that
construction and application of federal criminal laws
should take into account the powers and
responsibilities of the President under Article II of the
Constitution, but that is a case specific
determination. Amici urge this Court to reject
Petitioner’s absolute and qualified immunity theories
which would be exceedingly dangerous for both our
constitutional framework and for U.S. national
security.
Respectfully submitted,
Richard W. Painter
Counsel of Record
University of Minnesota Law School
Walter F. Mondale Hall
229 19th Avenue, South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 626-9707
rpainter@umn.edu
31
APPENDIX
TABLE OF APPENDICES
APPENDIX: LIST OF AMICI CURIAE..........1A
APPENDIX
List of Amici Curiae
Claire O. Finkelstein, Algernon Biddle Professor
of Law and Professor of Philosophy; Faculty
Director of the Center for Ethics and the Rule of
Law, University of Pennsylvania
John D. Altenburg, Former Deputy Judge Advocate
General of the Army, Major General, (ret.)
James E. Cartwright, U.S. Marine Corps; Former
Vice Chair, Joint Chiefs of Staff, General (ret.)
Gary Corn, Staff Judge Advocate (General Counsel)
to U.S. Cyber Command, Deputy Legal Counsel to
the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colonel
(ret.), Director, Technology, Law & Security Program
and Adj. Professor of Cyber and National Security
Law, American University College of Law
Geoffrey S. Corn, George R. Killam Jr. Chair of
Criminal Law and Director of the Center for Military
Law and Policy, Texas Tech University School of
Law, Lt. Colonel (ret)
Donald J. Guter, Rear Admiral, JAGC, USN (Ret.),
President and Dean Emeritus, South Texas College
of Law
James W. Houck, VADM, JAGC, U. S. Navy
(Ret.), Distinguished Scholar in Residence, Penn
State Law and School of International Affairs
John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General of the
Navy, Rear Admiral (ret.), former dean and president
of the University of New Hampshire School of Law
Alberto Mora, Former General Counsel, Department
of the Navy
Richard W. Painter, Counsel of Record for Amici; S.
Walter Richey Professor of Corporate Law, University
of Minnesota Law School; Former Associate Counsel
to the President and chief White House ethics lawyer
for President George W. Bush.
Harvey Rishikof, Former Director of Military
Commissions and Convening Authority and the
Department of Defense, General (ret.)
Manuel Supervielle, SJA (General Counsel) US
Southern Command, Special Counsel to the General
Counsel U.S. Army, SJA (General Counsel) US
Forces in Afghanistan, Colonel (ret.)
Ambassador Alexander Vershbow, Distinguished
Fellow, Atlantic Council, Former Assistant Secretary
of Defense, former Ambassador to NATO and Russia,
former NATO Deputy Secretary General.
Joseph Votel, General (ret.) U.S. Army, Former
Commanding General of US Central Command and
US Special Operations Command; Member of the
Executive Board of the Center for Ethics and Rule of
Law, University of Pennsylvania.
Stephen Xenakis, M.D.. U.S. Army, Brigadier
General (ret.)
No. 23-939
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED
STATES
___________________________________
DONALD J. TRUMP,
Petitioner,
v.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Respondent.
____________________________________
On Writ of Certiorari to the United States Court of
Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit
______________________________________
BRIEF AMICI CURIAE OF CLAIRE FINKELSTEIN AND FOURTEEN NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENT
Richard W. Painter
Counsel of Record
University of Minnesota Law School
229 19th Avenue, South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 626-9707
rpainter@umn.edu
Table of Contents
TABLE OF AUTHORITIES ................ ii
INTEREST OF AMICI ............. 1
SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT ............... 1
ARGUMENT ................ 3
I. Why the Principle that “No Person is Above
the Law” is the Bedrock of U.S. National
Security ............ 3
II. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Encourage Use of the U.S. Military to
Commit Crimes ............... 12
III. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Damage the Chain of Command ....... 18
IV. Petitioner’s Argument for Qualified Immunity
Is as Problematic as Blanket Immunity ....... 22
V. Lack of Immunity for Official Acts Would Not
Cripple the President in War .............. 25
VI. Conclusion ............. 30
VI. .............
CASES
Boumediene et. al. v. Bush, 553 U.S. 723 (2008) .... 10
Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997) .............. 5
Connally v. General Construction Co., 269 U.S. 385
(1926) ............ 2
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. 557 (2006) ........... 10
Kolender v. Lawson , 461 U.S. 352 (1983) ............. 2
Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) ........... 9
Nixon v. Fitzgerald , 457 U.S. 731 (1982) ....... 6, 2
Papachristou v. City of Jacksonville, 405 U.S. 156
(1972) ............ 2
Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. 2412 (2020) ............ 5,
United States v. Burr, 25 F. Cas. 30 (C.C. Va. 1807)
(No. 14,692d) ............. 5
United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974) ........ 5, 6
United States v. Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir.
2024) (No. 23-3228)........... 23
Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S.
579 (1952)............... 3, 10
CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS & STATUTES
U.S. Const. Art. I, § 6 ..........
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 1 ................ 1
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 2, cl.1 ........... 3
U.S. Const. Art. II, § 3, cl. 5 ..........
U.S. Const. Art. VI, cl. 2 ...............
5 U.S.C. § 3331 ...........
10 U.S.C. § 502 ...........
10 U.S.C. § 890, Art. 90 ..........
10 U.S.C. § 892, Art. 92 ............ 1, 2
18 U.S.C. § 208 ........... 2
18 U.S.C. § 592 ........... 1
18 U.S.C. § 593 ........... 1
18 U.S.C. § 1385 ................ 1
18 U.S.C. § 1512(c) ............
18 U.S.C. § 2441 ................ 2
OTHER AUTHORITIES
Albert W. Alschuler, Limiting the Pardon Power, 63
Ariz. L. Rev. 545 (2021) ........... 16
Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 69 (1788) ....... 11
Brief of Petitioner President Donald J. Trump, United
States v. Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir. 2024)
(No.23-3228), cert. granted, No. 23-939 (U.S. Feb.
28, 2024) ............. 1, 5, 8, 9, 21, 22, 24, 25, 27
Brief of Three Former Senior Military Officers and
Executive Branch Officials, as Amici Curiae
Supporting Petitioner, United States v. Trump, No.
23-939 (U.S. filed Mar. 19, 2024). ............ 14
Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter, “You’re
Fired”: Criminal Use of Presidential Removal
Power, 25 NYU J. Leg. & Pub. Pol’y 307 (2023).. 17
Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter,
Presidential Accountability and the Rule of Law:
Can the President Claim Immunity if He Shoots
Someone on Fifth Avenue?, 24 U. Pa. J. Const. L.
93 (2022).......... 4
Hearing Before the Select Committee to Investigate
the January 6th Attack on the United States
Capitol, 118th Cong. (July 12, 2022) .......... 15
John Ford, When Can a Soldier Disobey an Order? ,
War on the Rocks (July 24, 2017),
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-asoldier-
disobey-an-order/ ................ 18
Manual for Courts–Martial, United States (2024
Edition) ................ 18
Oral Argument, United States v. Trump, No. 23-3228
(D.C. Cir. Jan. 9, 2024),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFppEuJRTO4
............. 12
Randolph D. Moss, Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal
Counsel, Memorandum, A Sitting President’s
Amenability to Indictment and Criminal
Prosecution, 24 Op. O.L.C. 222 (Oct. 16, 2000) .. 16,
28
Robert G. Dixon, Jr., Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal
Counsel, Memorandum on Amenability of the
President, Vice President and Other Civil Officers
to Federal Criminal Prosecution While in Office,
Op. O.L.C. 1 (Sept. 24, 1973) .............. 16, 28
Speech by James Iredell at the North Carolina
Ratifying Convention 28 July 1788, in The Debates
in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of
the Federal Constitution as Recommended by the
General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, 4:108
(Elliot, Jonathan ed. 1888) ............... 8
INTEREST OF AMICI
Amici are national security and military
experts signing this brief in their individual
capacities.1 Amici are listed in the Appendix.
Amici are filing this brief to address the vital
national security interests that may be impacted by
the Court’s decision in this case. As national security
experts, amici have an interest in ensuring that the
Court recognizes the import of presidential
accountability for the integrity of the chain of the
command of the U.S. military.
SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
Petitioner argues that as former President of
the United States, he is immune to all criminal
charges, even after leaving office. Brief of Petitioner
President Donald J. Trump at 10, United States v.
Trump, 91 F.4th 1173 (D.C. Cir. 2024) (No.23-3228),
cert. granted, No. 23-939 (U.S. Feb. 28, 2024) (“Brief
of Petitioner”). He asks this Court to embrace a theory
of presidential authority, according to which no
prosecutor or court can hold a former president
accountable for either private or official capacity
crimes committed while he is in office, and he claims
this blanket immunity should endure permanently,
including after a president has left office. As national
1 No counsel for a party authored this brief in whole or in part,
and no party or counsel for a party made a monetary contribution
intended to fund its preparation or submission. No person other
than the amici or their counsel made a monetary contribution to
the preparation or submission of this brief.
security professionals and military experts, amici
argue that Petitioner’s broad view of immunity would
imperil U.S. national security, weaken the authority
of the President, and throw confusion into the chain of
command of the armed forces, which the President, as
Commander-in-Chief, commands. This Court must
unequivocally reject the proposed doctrine of
presidential immunity and leave no doubt in the
minds of Petitioner, the public, and all future
occupants of the Oval Office that the President, like
all individuals subject to the reach of the U.S. legal
system, is not above the law.
Of particular concern is the potential adverse
impact of presidential immunity on the principle of
military obedience to civil authority, the foundation
for our civil-military relations since the inception of
the Republic. Allowing a president to issue orders
requiring subordinates to commit criminal acts or
omissions would wreak havoc on the military chain of
command and result in an erosion of confidence in the
legality of presidential orders. It would also create the
potential for disparate interpretations of the duty to
obey orders, thereby risking military discipline. While
the duty of obedience does not extend to patently
illegal orders, an order issued by the President himself
would exert a powerful gravitational pull and thus
even if of dubious legality would create uncertainty in
the ranks. Holding everyone in the chain of command,
including the President, to the same principles of
accountability under the criminal laws of the United
States is essential for assuring the legality of military
orders and for providing the reassurance for all levels
of the chain of command of that legality.
2
Amici also unequivocally urge this Court to
reject any doctrine of qualified immunity for which
Petitioner may now be arguing in his brief to the
Court. Any form of immunity doctrine is both
unnecessary to protect the interests of the presidency
and ultimately dangerous for U.S. national security.
This Court should reject Petitioner’s theory of
absolute criminal immunity and should resist any
temptation to adopt a weaker version of this same
doctrine in the form of a qualified immunity doctrine.
ARGUMENT
I. Why the Principle that “No Person is Above the
Law” is the Bedrock of U.S. National Security
To protect against enemies, both foreign and
domestic, the Framers of the U.S. Constitution
imbued the office of the presidency with
extraordinary powers. Important among these is the
President’s role as Commander-in-Chief of the armed
forces and state militias when called into federal
service. U.S. Const. Art. II, § 2, cl.1. As this Court has
recognized, it is the rare case in which it would be
appropriate for the judiciary to interfere with
exercises of Commander-in-Chief authority. This
Court has rightly adopted a broad attitude of
deference towards executive branch action in matters
of war powers. However, when that authority is
turned “inward” and exercised toward domestic ends,
federal courts have been more than willing to reject
the legality of presidential action. See Youngstown
Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. 579, 644-45
(1952) (Jackson, J., concurring).
3
The U.S. Constitution establishes two primary
safeguards to protect against the risk of a runaway
presidency. First, a president cannot continue in
office without being reelected. Second, the
Constitution provides that a president may be
removed from office by a vote to impeach in the House
and a two-thirds vote to convict in the Senate.
Yet these two safeguards are not sufficient to
protect the country from the risk of dictatorship, since
a truly corrupt president might attempt to commit
crimes to manipulate the vote as well as to deprive
the impeachment process of effect. See Claire O.
Finkelstein & Richard W. Painter, Presidential
Accountability and the Rule of Law: Can the
President Claim Immunity if He Shoots Someone on
Fifth Avenue? , 24 U. PA. J. CONST. L. 93, 105 (2022).
This suggests that the basic principle that the
President must comply with the law, on pain of
criminal sanctions following conviction for an alleged
offense, is an even more fundamental check on the
presidency than either the vote or impeachment,
since it serves as the protection for those two
constitutional safeguards. Put otherwise, the
principle that no person is above the law serves as the
ultimate protector of U.S. democracy, since it
underpins the constitutional safeguards against
destruction of the Republic by authoritarian forces
within. The concept of immunity is antithetical to that
critical principle. And while the Constitution bestows
a limited immunity from criminal prosecution on
members of Congress in the Speech and Debate
4
Clause, U.S. Const., Art. I, § 6, it nowhere restricts
the power of Congress to enact federal criminal
statutes binding on the executive branch, including
the President.
On at least four occasions justices of this Court
have articulated the critical principle that no person,
including the President, is above the law. The first
time was in 1807 in the case of United States v. Burr ,
25 F. Cas. 30, 34 (C.C. Va. 1807) (No. 14,692d)
(Marshall, C.J.), in which Chief Justice Marshall held
that President Jefferson was amenable to criminal
subpoena issued in the treason trial of his former Vice
President, Aaron Burr. The second time was in 1974,
at the height of the Watergate crisis, where this Court
said that President Nixon must comply with a
prosecutor’s subpoena of White House tape
recordings. United States v. Nixon , 418 U.S. 683, 713
(1974). The third time was in 1997, where this Court
held that the President is amenable to civil suit for
personal conduct involving sexual harassment while
the President previously held a state office. Clinton v.
Jones , 520 U.S. 681, 705-706 (1997). The fourth time
was in Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. 2412, 2431(2020),
in which this Court held that a New York State grand
jury was entitled to subpoena a third party
accounting firm regarding the President’s personal
financial records as part of a criminal investigation
into possible crimes.
The current case, however, presents an issue
never previously before this Court because, as
Petitioner points out, no president before Petitioner
5
6
has ever been criminally prosecuted for official acts
allegedly committed in office. Brief of Petitioner, at 3.
The question is whether this Court will decide the
matter of criminal indictment of a former president
for official capacity crimes in the same way it has
decided the foregoing four immunity cases, or
whether it will analogize a criminal indictment to civil
suits against a former president for actions within the
“outer perimeter” of a president’s official duties.
Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 731, 756 (1982) (holding
that a former president has absolute immunity from
civil suits for official acts).
A footnote in Nixon v. Fitzgerald emphasizes
the distinction between civil actions seeking to impose
liability for official capacity acts and the question
confronted here, namely presidential amenability to
criminal liability for official capacity acts. The
footnote points out that there is a greater public
interest in prosecuting crimes than in allowing an
individual plaintiff to sue for damages: “The Court
has recognized before that there is a lesser public
interest in actions for civil damages than, for
example, in criminal prosecutions.” 457 U.S. 731, 754
n37, citing United States v. Gillock, 445 U.S. 360, 371-
373 (1980) and United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. at
711-712, 712 n.19.
The distinction between criminal and civil
enforcement is also highly relevant for defending U.S.
national security interests. Rarely if ever would a
national security interest be protected by a private
lawsuit for money damages. But national security
interests demand that federal officials remain equally
accountable to public assertions of prohibitory norms.
Making a former president immune from criminal
prosecution could make the presidency itself a
profound threat to national security, as it would
permit a president to use the great power of the office
to further personal interests, such as securing
reelection or attempting to avoid accountability for
criminal abuse of power. As national security
professionals, we emphatically reject the sweeping
proposition that all U.S. presidents enjoy legal
immunity from criminal prosecution to the “outer
perimeter” of their official duties. It is no
exaggeration to say that this proposition is potentially
the most dangerous that has ever been advanced in
a court of law by any U.S. official. Indeed, it is
a proposition that would convert the presidency
from the greatest protector of the nation to its
single greatest threat. It is also a profoundly
unethical proposal. To establish the President as
singularly unfettered by the same generally
applicable criminal laws that apply to every other
member of society erects an example of
lawlessness among the nation’s highest officials.
Such lawlessness erodes rule of law values where
such values are most needed.
That the President of the United States is
subject to the law is clear from the Constitution
itself. The Supremacy Clause of the U.S.
Constitution, Art. VI, cl. 2 provides: “This
Constitution, and the laws of the United States
which shall be made in pursuance thereof . . .
shall be the supreme law of the land,” thus making
clear that it is the law, not the President, that
7
8
is supreme. The Take Care Clause of Article II of the
Constitution also imposes upon the President the
obligation to ensure that the laws of the United States
are enforced. U.S. Const. Art. II, § 3, cl. 5
(the President “shall take Care that the Laws be
faithfully executed”).
The constitutional supremacy of the law, not
the President or any other person, is consistent with
the intent of the Framers. As James Iredell explained
in his speech to the North Carolina convention
ratifying the Constitution, it was not necessary for the
United States to have a privy council imposing
constraints on the exercise of presidential power, as it
was to constrain the King in Great Britain. Unlike the
King, the President is not above the law:
Under our Constitution we are much happier
. . .. No man has an authority to injure another
with impunity. No man is better than his
fellow-citizens, nor can pretend to any
superiority over the meanest man in the
country. If the President does a single act by
which the people are prejudiced, he is
punishable himself, and no other man merely
to screen him. If he commits any misdemeanor
in office, he is impeachable, removable from
office, and incapacitated to hold any office of
honor, trust, or profit. If he commits any crime,
he is punishable by the laws of his country, and
in capital cases may be deprived of his life.
This being the case, there is not the same
9
reason here for having a council which exists in
England.
Speech by James Iredell at the North Carolina
Ratifying Convention 28 July 1788, in The Debates in
the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the
Federal Constitution as Recommended by the
General Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, 4:108–
10 (Elliot, Jonathan ed. 1888)
Petitioner presents this Court with a very
different vision, according to which the President is
immune from all criminal laws enacted by Congress,
and therefore no court can constrain the President or
impose accountability on him for acts or omissions
that violate federal criminal law. See Petitioner’s
Brief, at 20.
Petitioner’s bid for presidential immunity is
not only an unprecedented assertion of presidential
authority, but also a declaration of the impotence of
federal courts with respect to matters touching
executive authority, even matters placed explicitly
within the jurisdiction of Article III courts by
Congress. Petitioner does not attempt to disguise his
disdain for Article III courts, frankly declaring that
the President’s official acts “can never be examinable
by the courts.” Petitioner’s Brief, at 3 quoting Chief
Justice Marshall in Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137
at 166 (1803). The view of the role of Article III courts
Petitioner is proposing would revolutionize their core
function, taking them back to the days before Chief
Justice Marshall established the power of judicial
review in Marbury v. Madison. It is clearly within the
power of Article III courts to say what the law is, Id.
at 177, and to enjoin actions of the executive that
violate the law, Youngstown v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. at
588-589. Petitioner’s conception of immunity would
also leave individuals without a remedy even for
patently illegal violations of their constitutional and
statutory rights. Federal courts routinely hear cases
prosecuting executive branch officials for violating
federal criminal law, and unsurprisingly not a single
case cited by Petitioner even contains dicta that a
former president is immune from prosecution if he
commits federal crimes while in office.
While Petitioner insists that Article III courts
“lack authority to sit in judgment over a President’s
official acts,” Brief of Petitioner, at 11, he allows that
federal courts may review the validity of the acts of
subordinate executive officials. Id. at 16, 20. There is
no basis for restricting this Court’s authority to
actions against presidential subordinates, and doing
so would contradict basic criminal law principles of
accomplice liability. This Court has willingly told both
presidents, and their subordinates, what they may
and may not do under the Constitution and the
various laws of the United States. See Youngstown
Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer , 343 U.S. at 588-589;
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld , 548 U.S. 557, 633 (2006)
(holding that the Guantanamo military commissions
violate the guarantee owed to each detainee under
international law to be heard by a “regularly
constituted court.”); Boumediene et. al. v. Bush , 553
U.S. 723, 792 (2008) (holding that prisoners held at
Guantanamo Bay have a right to the writ of habeas
10
corpus). The authority of this Court and other courts
to enforce federal criminal law is no different.
The President’s duty to conform his conduct to
the law is also reflected in the oath he must take
before assuming office – itself a requirement of Article
II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution – to “preserve,
protect and defend the Constitution of the United
States.” U.S. Const. Art. II, § 1. What could be a
clearer demonstration that the President must be
subject to, and not superior to, the law of the land
than this provision requiring the President to swear
allegiance to that self-same Constitution? Members of
the armed services likewise are required to take an
oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies,
foreign and domestic, and to obey the orders of the
President. 10 U.S.C. § 502. But only enlisted members
swear an oath to obey the orders of the President. Id.
By contrast, commissioned officers swear an oath that
does not mention the President, according to which
they promise to “support and defend the Constitution
of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic. . ..” 5 U.S.C. § 3331.
The doctrine of substantive presidential
immunity for which Petitioner argues would exactly
reverse this constitutionally binding structure. By
Petitioner’s lights, if he, presently a candidate for the
presidency, wins the election and takes the oath of
office in January of 2025, he is licensed to do precisely
what the oath suggests he must abhor, namely to
govern the country without fidelity to the law and to
ignore the Constitution.
11
12
Any political arrangement that grants broad
command authority to a single individual, as
Hamilton says in Federalist 69, “would be
unsustainable and would risk certain dictatorship if
the same breadth of powers were extended without
the assurance of accountability under the
law.” Hamilton further says in that same Federalist
Paper: “The [President of the United States]
would be amenable to personal punishment and
disgrace; the person of the [king of Great Britain]
is sacred and inviolable.” Alexander Hamilton,
Federalist No. 69 (1788) The very extent of the
President’s power as Commander-in-Chief thus
necessitates that he be held to the same
standards as any other citizen with regard to clear
violations of generally applicable criminal laws,
absent an explicit congressional exemption.
Presidential accountability under the law is not
only compatible with broad deference to the
President in matters of war and peace; it is required
to sustain such deference.
II. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Encourage Use of the U.S. Military to
Commit Crimes
One of the most serious risks of presidential
immunity for official capacity acts arises from the
potential that the President may abuse his
Commander-in-Chief authority, thereby placing the
integrity of the armed forces at risk. Imagine a
president determined to use the U.S. military to
commit crimes against political opponents; to
constrain and control domestic civilian populations in
13
violation of federal criminal law; to coerce foreign
nations into supporting his bid for reelection by
engaging in criminally proscribed corrupt practices;
to falsify domestic election results in an effort to
criminally defraud the United States; and to coerce
the legislative and judicial branches of government
into supporting his friends and punishing his
enemies. While the Posse Comitatus Act, 18 U.S.C. §
1385 forbids use of the armed forces for civilian law-enforcement
purposes unless authorized by the
Constitution or laws of the United States, the
President could issue an illegal order for this purpose
without ramification if the Petitioner’s sought-for
immunity for official acts were to be granted, and that
order might very well be considered by military
subordinates as falling within the “authorized by the
Constitution” exception to the Act.
Or consider the shocking example of the
President ordering a Navy Seal Team Six
assassination of a political rival, which Judge Pan
discussed with Petitioner’s counsel in oral argument
of this case in the Court of Appeals for the District of
Columbia. Oral Argument at 07:35, United States. v.
Trump, No. 23-3228 (D.C. Cir. Jan. 9, 2024),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFppEuJRTO4
[https://perma.cc/KB94-V634]. Such an offense could
also be committed against members of Congress who
possess the authority and the duty to serve as a check
on executive power. What would become of
impeachment as a check and balance if a president
could order Seal Team Six to intimidate members of
Congress and then enjoy immunity unless he was
impeached by a majority of the House and convicted
14
by two-thirds of the Senate? Who in Congress would
even dare to try to impeach the President under such
circumstances? Likewise, the judiciary could be cowed
into submission and the independence of this very
Court threatened by fear of violence inflicted on its
members. The rule of law will be threatened unless
federal courts have protection against intimidation by
a criminal president in command of Seal Team Six or
any other unit of the U.S. Armed Forces.
Even the three senior military officers and
executive branch officials who have filed an amicus
brief in this case in support of Petitioner take no stand
on the presidential immunity argument made by
Petitioner, choosing to focus entirely on the illegality
of a presidential order to assassinate a political rival:
[T]he President has no authority to order the
military to assassinate someone because he is
a political rival. Nor would the military carry
out such an unlawful order. Under the Uniform
Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), any military
officer who carried out or issued such an order
would commit the crime of murder. One such
limitation is that the President has no
authority to order the military to assassinate
someone because he is a political rival. Nor
would the military carry out such an unlawful
order. Under the Uniform Code of Military
Justice (UCMJ), any military officer who
carried out or issued such an order would
commit the crime of murder. In addition,
Executive Order 12333 prohibits any person
employed by the U.S. government from
15
engaging in, or conspiring to engage in,
assassination.
Brief of Three Former Senior Military Officers and
Executive Branch Officials, as Amici Curiae
Supporting Petitioner, United States v. Trump, No.
23-939 (U.S. filed Mar. 19, 2024), 3. They conclude:
“Whether or not a President has the immunity
claimed by Petitioner in this case—a question amici
do not address in this brief—a President cannot order
the military to assassinate a political rival and have
that order carried out.” Id. at 1.
This conclusion is misleading for two reasons.
First, the President could certainly issue an order to
assassinate a political rival, and when vested with the
immunity sought by Petitioner, the risk he would do
so is necessarily increased. Second, there is simply no
guarantee a subordinate would refuse to obey such an
order once the President who issued it could claim
immunity from any legal consequence. And there is
no guarantee that the principle of presidential
immunity might then be mistakenly claimed as
authority by subordinates carrying out the
President’s claimed immunity.
Thus, even former military officers and
executive branch officials who purport to support
Petitioner in this case make clear that use of the
military to commit a crime such as murder would be
illegal and any military officer who carried out such
an order could be held legally accountable. Note that
these amici decline to address the question whether
the President would also be guilty of murder. They
acknowledge the illegality of such an order yet avoid
16
the obvious corollary that if the President is
emboldened by immunity to issue an illegal order, the
military command structure will be infected with
distrust and disarray.
The main body of this case, of which the current
matter is but an interlocutory appeal, concerns
criminal prosecution for an alleged conspiracy to
defraud the United States. The case therefore
highlights the very real risk of a sitting president
accused of committing crimes to remain in office. The
risk of a president who commits crimes to avoid the
transition of power is one of the gravest our
democracy may face. Here we wish to highlight the
risk that such crimes could be committed by making
use of the U.S. Armed Forces. The President might
deploy troops to control polls, for example, in violation
of 18 U.S.C. § 592 and 18 U.S.C. § 593 (interference
by armed forces), as the present Petitioner himself
once discussed in a December 18, 2020 meeting in the
Oval Office according to the Report of the U.S. House
January 6 Committee. See Hearing Before the Select
Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on
the United States Capitol, 117th Cong. 2d. sess. 4-5
(July 12, 2022),
https://www.congress.gov/117/chrg/CHRG-
117hhrg49355/CHRG-117hhrg49355.pdf
[https://perma.cc/86SN-TK3J]. A criminal president
could ignore these and other laws and use military
force to coerce voters, to coerce state officials counting
ballots, or to obstruct the official proceedings in which
state legislatures and Congress certify results of
elections. 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c) (criminal obstruction of
an official proceeding).
17
Moreover, a president who has committed
crimes while in office has incentive to remain in office
to deter or entirely thwart the moment at which he is
brought to justice. The risk to democracy, and hence
to U.S. national security, is gravest from a sitting
president who seeks to undermine the transfer of
power, and even greater from a president already
under scrutiny for criminal acts. By removing liability
for the criminal misuse of official capacity acts, this
Court could be eliminating the last protection from
dictatorship cognized by our constitutional system.
The blanket presidential immunity Petitioner
seeks is rendered wholly unnecessary by the fact that
a sitting president is already insulated from
prosecution in numerous ways. The Justice
Department policy forbidding indictment of a sitting
president renders justice against a president who has
committed crimes in office exceedingly challenging
and cumbersome. For example, see Robert G. Dixon,
Jr., Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of Legal Counsel,
Memorandum on Amenability of the President, Vice
President and Other Civil Officers to Federal
Criminal Prosecution While in Office , Op. O.L.C. 1, 32
(Sept. 24, 1973) (unpublished memo) (“1973 OLC
Memo”); Randolph D. Moss, Asst. Atty. Gen. Office of
Legal Counsel, Memorandum, A Sitting President’s
Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution ,
24 Op. O.L.C. 222, 223 (Oct. 16, 2000) (“2000 OLC
Memo”). In addition, a president can pardon his
associates accused of wrongdoing and might pardon
himself, even if self-pardon is of dubious legality. See
Albert W. Alschuler, Limiting the Pardon Power , 63
ARIZ. L. REV. 545, 553-560 (2021) (discussing self18
pardons). Finally, the President as head of the
executive branch appoints, and can remove, senior
officials in the Department of Justice, although his
firing a prosecutor with the intent to obstruct a
criminal investigation of himself or his associates
could itself constitute a crime such as obstruction of
justice. See Claire O. Finkelstein & Richard W.
Painter, “You’re Fired”: Criminal Use of Presidential
Removal Power , 25 NYU J. LEG. & PUB. POL’Y 307,
347 (2023).
III. Presidential Immunity For Criminal Acts
Would Damage the Chain of Command
Presidential immunity for official capacity
crimes would create an untenable dilemma for every
member of the military chain of command ordered to
execute an order, particularly if officers disagree as to
its legality under criminal law. Because any order
issued by a president carries with it a presumption of
legality and exerts a powerful gravitational force on
its recipients, the risk of such disparate
interpretations of the duty to obey, even if the order
appears on its face to violate federal criminal law,
would be exacerbated if the President were
unrestrained in the orders he could issue and could
therefore violate the law with impunity.
Failure to obey a lawful order for any
individual in the military chain of command whose
duty it is to obey such order is a serious offense,
subject to prosecution by general courts martial. 10
U.S.C. § 890, Art. 90 10 U.S.C. § 892, Art. 92 (in
the
19
case of a willful violation). In times of war, willful
failure to follow certain orders can result in a sentence
of death. § 890, Art. 90; § 892, Art. 92. Yet the absolute
duty to follow orders is predicated upon the
lawfulness of such orders. Any soldier receiving
illegal orders has a duty to refuse to carry out those
orders, and no one committing atrocities against a
civilian population, for example, can hope to achieve
an acquittal at court-martial on the basis of following
orders.
At the same time, the illegality of a military
order is an affirmative defense to a refusal to obey. It
is presumed that orders are lawful, and a defendant
charged with disobeying orders bears the burden of
establishing illegality. See Manual for Courts–
Martial, United States (2024 Edition), pt. IV, para.
16.c.(2)(a)(iv,
https://jsc.defense.gov/Portals/99/2024%20MCM%20f
iles/MCM%20(2024%20ed)%20(2024_01_02)%20(adj
usted%20bookmarks).pdf [https://perma.cc/DQ3VMDYR];
see also, John Ford, When Can a Soldier
Disobey an Order?, War on the Rocks (July 24, 2017),
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-asoldier-
disobey-an-order/ [https://perma.cc/984YV68V].
Any subordinate inclined to disobey an order
issued by the President assumes a grave risk of
prosecution with a heavy burden to establish the
order was in fact illegal.
Furthermore, obedience to an order that is in
fact unlawful is a complete defense in military law
unless the illegality is known to the subordinate or so
patently clear that the subordinate must have known
20
it was illegal. In the case of an illegal order, the mere
fact that it was issued by a president would guarantee
uncertainty as to its legality, with the result that
obedience could provide a complete defense to any
criminal prosecution arising therefrom. This sharply
reduces the likelihood that a subordinate officer will
refuse to obey a president’s orders, even though
immunity from prosecution increases the incentive of
the President to issue illegal orders. Military
personnel who instinctively rely on the validity of an
order that is passed through the chain of command
can nonetheless be prosecuted for obeying the order if
it turns out to be illegal.
The foregoing taken together suggests that the
presidential immunity from criminal prosecution
asserted by Petitioner would create multiple
problems for the command function and good order
and discipline of the armed services. First, if
subordinates in the chain of command are aware that
the Commander-in-Chief is immune from
prosecution, some may assume this renders any order
legal for purposes of their duty to obey. Others may
reach a different conclusion, especially as senior
officers in the chain of command will tend to rely on
legal advisors to determine legality. This could easily
result in chaos, with different commanders in the
same chain reaching disparate conclusions as to their
duty to obey or disobey. Second, the mere knowledge
that the President enjoys immunity may lead
subordinates to question their duty to obey
presidential orders, something that almost never
normally occurs. In short, the expectation that the
President’s duty to the Constitution necessitates that
21
all orders comply with the law and the accountability
the President would face for legal violations provides
the basis for the near absolute trust subordinates
place in the legality of presidential orders.
Third, because Petitioner emphasizes that the
immunity he asserts would in no way protect
subordinates who commit crimes in obedience to
presidential orders, they may fear liability for
executing illegal orders, thus causing hesitation to
execute other lawful commands of the President and
civilian officers. Often there is little time to assess
whether an order is legal; a subordinate must be able
to rely on the legality of all presidential orders, yet
this reliance would be unavailable were Petitioner’s
theory to hold sway. Worry within the command chain
about unconstrained presidential crime could thus
have devastating consequences for discipline within
the ranks.
Finally, there are always those who will follow
presidential orders even if they believe doing so will
violate federal criminal law, an inevitable
consequence of the extremely powerful presumption
of obedience to the Commander-in-Chief. Illegality
from the top does not come with a label marking it as
such. Knowledge that the President is immune from
criminal prosecution for official acts, even after he
leaves office, would add weight to this presumptive
obligation of obedience. Obedience could be justified
as consistent with the oath to support and defend the
Constitution as the order emanated from a
constitutionally designated president who was
permitted to issue the order even if inconsistent with
other laws. Military and civilian officers might see
presidential immunity as a constitutional blank check
to issue any order, even orders requiring subordinates
to commit crimes, including crimes that endanger
national security.
Absolute or qualified immunity of a president
could also be mixed with improper use of
the pardon power to enable a corrupt president to use
the military to accomplish otherwise unlawful
objectives. For example, in the Seal Team Six
assassination scenario, the team members would not
need to fear the consequences of committing murder
if the order to commit the murder were coupled with
the promise of a pardon. Many other scenarios,
including torture of prisoners and detainees, could be
realized in which the pardon power is used by a
legally unbound, immunized president to subvert the
military’s allegiance to the Constitution, the rule of
law, and military discipline.
IV. Petitioner’s Argument for Qualified Immunity
Is as Problematic as Blanket Immunity
Petitioner proposes, as a second-choice
alternative to absolute immunity, a burdensome and
unnecessary standard of qualified immunity that
once again seeks to place the President above
ordinary citizens with regard to “generally applicable”
criminal law. Brief of Petitioner, at 37-40. This
argument attempts to import into the criminal arena
22
23
the holding of cases immunizing the President from
civil suit for actions extending to the “outer
perimeter” of official capacity. Nixon v. Fitzgerald,
457 U.S. at 756. Petitioner further argues, as a
second-best alternative, for a “functional” view of
immunity, according to which officials with a broad
range of duties should have broader immunity from
criminal prosecution than officials with less
responsibility and less discretion. Brief of Petitioner,
at 46, citing Scheuer v. Rhodes, 416 U.S. 232, 247
(1974). The primary case he cites for this, namely
Scheuer, is only tangentially relevant to the current
case, given that it is a civil damages case against a
governor. Amici are not aware of any legal precedent
applying the doctrine of qualified immunity to public
officials in criminal cases.
Second, Petitioner claims that as President he
is entitled to a “qualified immunity” in the sense that
to hold a president criminally liable, there must be a
clarity in the law above and beyond the exacting
standard of clarity that courts already impose in
criminal cases. Brief of Petitioner, at 46-47.
Petitioner offers little support for this proposition,
however, citing only civil cases brought against public
officials, not criminal cases. Petitioner also does not
advance a coherent argument as to why the
President, or any other public official, is entitled to
insist on greater clarity in the criminal law than that
required in the criminal trial of any other citizen.
Ambiguous criminal statutes already are void for
vagueness under the Due Process Clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment. See Kolender v. Lawson,
461 U.S. 352, 357 (1983); Papachristou v. City of
Jacksonville , 405 U.S. 156 (1972); Connally v.
General Construction Co. , 269 U.S. 385 (1926).
Another possible form of “qualified immunity”
would be to allow for such immunity generally but
then deny it only in those cases in which the
President’s motive was to remain in office. Petitioner
argues that inquiring into a president’s motive for an
official act is impermissible, Brief of Petitioner, at 42,
45, and then claims that the D.C. Circuit Court held
that he was not immune from prosecution because he
was “determined to remain in power.” Id. at 48-49. But
the D.C. Circuit Court opinion does not once refer to
a president’s motive as a factor in ruling on whether
he is immune from criminal prosecution after leaving
office. Rather, the Court concludes that Petitioner’s
theory of absolute immunity from prosecution for
official acts “is unsupported by precedent, history or
the text and structure of the Constitution.” United
States v. Trump , 91 F.4th 1173, 1208 (D.C. Cir. 2024)
(No. 23-3228), cert. granted , No. 23-939, 2024 WL
833184 (U.S. Feb. 28, 2024). Contrary to Petitioner’s
contention, the Court of Appeals did not consider the
fact that Petitioner’s motive for his actions was to
remain in power beyond the expiration of his term,
however dangerous for democracy such a motive for a
president’s crimes might be.
Just as with the absolute immunity approach
for which Petitioner argues, qualified immunity from
prosecution based on the President’s office is a
dangerous doctrine to adopt, even if more selective
than absolute immunity. Perhaps more importantly,
the interests Petitioner claims would be advanced by
24
25
qualified immunity are already addressed by
traditional limitations on criminal liability. Thus,
there is no credible justification to support
Petitioner’s argument that a different and higher
level of clarity as to a federal criminal statute must be
required when the law is applied to the President
than when the same law is enforced by the
Department of Justice against an ordinary citizen.
The proposed standard, which would require
Congress to speak with specificity as to whether a
criminal statute applied to the President in every
case, would import chaos into both the legislative
drafting process for federal crimes and would
effectively nullify dozens of existing crimes where
Congress had no advanced knowledge of the need to
expressly say the statute applies to the President. It
is inconceivable that there would be one standard of
constitutional due process in cases brought against
the President and his subordinates and a different
and lower standard for cases brought against
everyone else. This could raise complex issues of equal
protection and due process for any other citizen
prosecuted for violating the same statutory provision.
V. Lack of Immunity for Official Acts Would Not
Cripple the President in War
Petitioner suggests that in the absence of
immunity for official acts, any number of presidents
throughout history might have been prosecuted for
war crimes, based on political accusations that they
were committing “crimes.” Brief of Petitioner, at 22 &
ff. However, being “prosecuted” is not the same as
being convicted. Even setting aside the exaggerated
nature of Petitioner’s argument, a conviction for war
crimes requires both the judgment of a grand jury
that a crime was committed, denial of a motion to
dismiss by an Article III judge, and a unanimous
finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt by trial
jury. But if these prosecutorial burdens are satisfied,
there is no plausible reason a president should be
immune from the criminal consequences of ordering a
war crime, a conclusion reinforced by the fact that the
federal War Crimes Act makes no exemption for the
President or any other high-ranking federal official.
Examples cited by Petitioner are inherently
misleading, as none involve orders that were so
clearly unlawful as to support criminal prosecution.
Pointing to President Roosevelt’s relocation and
detention of Japanese Americans during World War
II; President Clinton’s launching of military strikes in
the Middle East on the eve of critical developments in
the scandal involving his affair with a White House
intern; the Bush Administration providing what
was subsequently understood to be false
information to Congress about weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq; and President Obama’s
targeted killing of U.S. citizens abroad based on
a determination they were enemy belligerent
operatives, among others. Brief of Petitioner, at 23.
Petitioner points out that “In all of these instances,
the President’s political opponents routinely accuse
him, and currently accuse President Biden, of
'criminal' behavior in his official acts. In each such
case, those opponents later came to power with
ample incentive to charge him. But no former
26
27
President was ever prosecuted for official acts—until
2023.” Brief of Petitioner, at 23-24. For this reason,
Petitioner is convinced that criminal prosecution of a
president of any sort “presents a mortal threat to the
Presidency’s independence.” Id. at 25.
Yet in trotting out this parade of horribles,
Petitioner completely ignores the fact that there is a
difference between acts that are actually criminal and
acts that are merely said to be criminal by political
adversaries. None of these decisions resulted in
criminal indictment or prosecution for the obvious
reason that there was a substantial gap between
political hyperbole and evidence indicating violation
of federal criminal law. Moreover, it is not necessary
for the President to have blanket immunity to be
protected from criminal prosecution for acts ordered,
solicited, or committed in times of war. Nor would
such blanket immunity be desirable. The My Lai
massacre in which U.S. troops killed as many as 500
unarmed villagers in Vietnam in 1968 is a reminder
that U.S. troops have committed atrocities in warfare
and that criminal liability is a critical part of holding
anyone accountable who would engage in such acts.
Any president who ordered or encouraged a massacre
of civilians would rightly be subject to prosecution for
his role in such a heinous act. Furthermore, any
subordinate who acted on such orders should not be
able to claim a “following orders” defense—a defense
that has been consistently rejected, including
famously at the Nuremberg trials. See 10 U.S.C. §
892, Art. 92.
Indeed, the War Crimes Act of 1996, 18 U.S.C.
§ 2441, imposes liability on U.S. military personnel
for grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, or
Common Article III of that Convention, for acts
committed outside the territorial jurisdiction of the
United States. This provision addresses cases in
which crimes come to light only after the individual
separates from the armed forces and is no longer
subject to military criminal jurisdiction. Liability
under such circumstances is consistent with national
security interests, and absolute or qualified immunity
for the President would contradict this important
principle. Such an asymmetry of criminal
accountability is not justified and is not supported by
the tradition of command authority as restricted to
lawful actions. While a president should be tried in a
federal court, rather than a court martial, for his
crimes, the principle remains that no person is above
the law.
Presidential powers under Article II, moreover,
can be accommodated in the drafting and
interpretation of criminal statutes. Blanket immunity
is not necessary. A president, for example, has the
power to share classified information with a foreign
power in furtherance of U.S. national security
interests. A president who shares classified
information with a foreign power in return for a bribe,
however, may violate both the Espionage Act and
bribery statutes. The fact that some criminal statutes
must be construed to be consistent with lawful use of
Article II power does not mean that the President has
absolute immunity from prosecution for crimes
committed in office.
28
29
Furthermore, Congress can exempt the
President from criminal statutes if it believes a
criminal statute imposes an undue infringement on
Article II power. For example, the President and Vice
President are exempt from the criminal financial
conflict of interest statute, 18 U.S.C. § 208, which
makes it a crime for executive branch officials to
participate in a government matter in which they or
their spouse have a financial interest. If this Court
believes that a specific criminal statute
unconstitutionally intrudes upon exclusive Article II
powers of the President, the Court can hold that the
statute in all or in part does not apply to the
President. The absolute immunity theory proposed
by Petitioner is wholly unnecessary.
As Petitioner notes, not once has a criminal
indictment against a former president been
submitted to a grand jury or even contemplated for
crimes committed in wartime. Brief of Petitioner at
6-7. The current prosecutions of Petitioner are
similarly unrelated to the Commander-in-Chief
function of the President, as none of the acts for which
the former President has been indicted were
performed in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief.
The Department of Justice has several times
examined the risk of meritless criminal charges being
filed against a president, and never even hinted that
lifetime immunity from prosecution was necessary.
Instead, the Department reached the conclusion that
a sitting president cannot be indicted while in office.
The Office of Legal Counsel memoranda opining that
a current president cannot be indicted specifically
30
point out that a president can be prosecuted after
leaving office . See 1973 OLC Memo, at 32; 2000 OLC
Memo, at 255-256, 259. Prohibiting indictment and
trial during the term of office sufficiently protects the
President’s interest in ensuring the focus of his or her
duties will not be unduly burdened by having to
mount a defense to a criminal accusation while in
office, while protecting society’s interest in a fair and
impartial adjudication of alleged criminal misconduct
at a point in time when it will have no such adverse
impact on the nation.
The appropriate response to politicized
prosecutions is judicial oversight. Courts oversee
criminal cases to prevent prosecutorial abuses,
including selective or discriminatory prosecution,
indictments that are not based on probable cause or
fail to properly allege an offense, insufficient evidence
of guilt, and unethical prosecutorial conduct.
Members of Congress, cabinet members, and federal
judges all could be exposed to baseless criminal
charges, yet none is entitled to absolute immunity for
their official acts. Indeed, this argument for making
the President exempt from criminal process has
already been presented before this Court by this very
same Petitioner, Donald Trump, and it was rejected.
Trump v. Vance , 140 S. Ct. at 2427-2429.
VI. Conclusion
Amici urge this Court to strengthen, not
weaken, the legal and moral authority of the
President, particularly as Commander-in-Chief of the
armed forces, by holding the President like every
other American accountable under the criminal laws
of the United States. Amici recognize that
construction and application of federal criminal laws
should take into account the powers and
responsibilities of the President under Article II of the
Constitution, but that is a case specific
determination. Amici urge this Court to reject
Petitioner’s absolute and qualified immunity theories
which would be exceedingly dangerous for both our
constitutional framework and for U.S. national
security.
Respectfully submitted,
Richard W. Painter
Counsel of Record
University of Minnesota Law School
Walter F. Mondale Hall
229 19th Avenue, South
Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 626-9707
rpainter@umn.edu
31
APPENDIX
TABLE OF APPENDICES
APPENDIX: LIST OF AMICI CURIAE..........1A
APPENDIX
List of Amici Curiae
Claire O. Finkelstein, Algernon Biddle Professor
of Law and Professor of Philosophy; Faculty
Director of the Center for Ethics and the Rule of
Law, University of Pennsylvania
John D. Altenburg, Former Deputy Judge Advocate
General of the Army, Major General, (ret.)
James E. Cartwright, U.S. Marine Corps; Former
Vice Chair, Joint Chiefs of Staff, General (ret.)
Gary Corn, Staff Judge Advocate (General Counsel)
to U.S. Cyber Command, Deputy Legal Counsel to
the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Colonel
(ret.), Director, Technology, Law & Security Program
and Adj. Professor of Cyber and National Security
Law, American University College of Law
Geoffrey S. Corn, George R. Killam Jr. Chair of
Criminal Law and Director of the Center for Military
Law and Policy, Texas Tech University School of
Law, Lt. Colonel (ret)
Donald J. Guter, Rear Admiral, JAGC, USN (Ret.),
President and Dean Emeritus, South Texas College
of Law
James W. Houck, VADM, JAGC, U. S. Navy
(Ret.), Distinguished Scholar in Residence, Penn
State Law and School of International Affairs
John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General of the
Navy, Rear Admiral (ret.), former dean and president
of the University of New Hampshire School of Law
Alberto Mora, Former General Counsel, Department
of the Navy
Richard W. Painter, Counsel of Record for Amici; S.
Walter Richey Professor of Corporate Law, University
of Minnesota Law School; Former Associate Counsel
to the President and chief White House ethics lawyer
for President George W. Bush.
Harvey Rishikof, Former Director of Military
Commissions and Convening Authority and the
Department of Defense, General (ret.)
Manuel Supervielle, SJA (General Counsel) US
Southern Command, Special Counsel to the General
Counsel U.S. Army, SJA (General Counsel) US
Forces in Afghanistan, Colonel (ret.)
Ambassador Alexander Vershbow, Distinguished
Fellow, Atlantic Council, Former Assistant Secretary
of Defense, former Ambassador to NATO and Russia,
former NATO Deputy Secretary General.
Joseph Votel, General (ret.) U.S. Army, Former
Commanding General of US Central Command and
US Special Operations Command; Member of the
Executive Board of the Center for Ethics and Rule of
Law, University of Pennsylvania.
Stephen Xenakis, M.D.. U.S. Army, Brigadier
General (ret.)
- admin
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:14 am
Secret Service MAKES PLAN for Trump GOING TO PRISON
MeidasTouch
Apr 23, 2024
The glass ceiling has been broken: The Secret Service IS IN TALKS with Law Enforcement & PRISON OFFICIALS about HOW TO JAIL TRUMP! Michael Popok breaks down the logistics being discussed either if Trump is jailed for contempt OR is sentenced to jail or prison for a criminal conviction. It is getting real….
Transcript
this Michael popak legal AF hot-take well
the glass ceiling has been broken the
Secret Service is talking about the
possibility that Donald Trump could be
jailed or imprisoned as a result of one
of his criminal trials we always thought
they were talking about it behind the
scenes but the New York Times reports
that yes the Secret Service is in talks
with law enforcement under a scenario
where Donald Trump would be jailed let
me uh make a distinction here jail is
likely a possible result for Donald
Trump being found in contempt of court
by judge Maran for violating the gag
order if that happens yeah there's a
jail in the back of the
courthouse it's like a it's like a
cooling off tank but there's actually a
jail in New York called Riker's Island
which if it were longer than a short
amount of time I think you would be
transported to but talk about what the
New York Times is reporting as the
logistics that the Secret Service who
has Donald Trump as a requirement their
remit to defend him meaning the secret
service is going to jail too or prison
now let me talk about prison if he is
sentenced in a state system like the New
York state supreme court jury right now
considering the election interference uh
uh business fraud
case then Donald Trump is not sent to a
prison per se he's sent likely to
Riker's Island at least that's where the
average Garden variety convicted
criminal goes in New York York it's not
a fun place it's not a nice place it's
one of the worst jails in the country
and let's just hold that thought for a
minute if he gets convicted in the
federal system then he's under the
control of the Federal Bureau of Prisons
the bop and the bop and the director of
the Bureau of Prisons has to decide
sometimes in consultation with the judge
um and the uh uh parole and sentencing
uh Department of the of the um
Department of Justice as to which
facility is right for Donald Trump that
we generally refer to as a prison the
secret service has to get their arms and
Minds around the possibility that Donald
Trump is going to jail or prison the New
York Times reports the thing that
instigated it it took it out of the
world of conjecture and speculation into
the world of Donald Trump potentially
wearing a jumpsuit meaning the that the
Secret Service who didn't sign up for
this per se is going to jail too is the
contempt hearing going on in New York we
don't have a ruling yet we will maybe by
the time this hotti goes up about
whether judge Maran first in an exercise
of progressive discipline fines Donald
Trump up to $1,000 a day that's the
maximum in New York after that it would
be jail time in the courthouse there's a
jail or in Riker's Island so how to
protect the guy running for the
presidency who already has a secret
service detail and under on the off
chance that he Were Somehow sent back by
the American electorate back to the
white house uh Heaven de Betsy shutter
to think then what would happen so they
got to think about these eventualities
now the secret service is going to stay
with Donald Trump even if he goes if
he's incarcerated in one of these
facilities I just outlined prison jail
he won't be in the general population
they're already talking and that's the
new reporting law enforcement the the
the directors of the jail and prison
system in New York and Secret Service
leadership is talking about how to
protect Donald Trump inside right how do
you do it because there's no talk yet of
of allowing him to serve out his time in
some other facility like a uh
decommissioned army base or a hospital
of some sort so if he's going to go in
he's going to have to be separated from
general population because even the
Trump supporters think he'll be murdered
in prison how do I know that Alan dtz a
leading lawyer for Donald Trump big
supporter of Donald Trump constitutional
scholar uh somebody who got OJ off and
not be convicted he said exactly that on
news TI a listen his wife and his
children real quickly uh Professor I
want to ask you one question here this
was news over the weekend former head of
the January 6 committee Congressman
Bernie uh Benny rather Thompson he wants
to strip Trump of his secret service
protection uh that uh he gets and that's
if he's convicted of this crime so he
would not have Secret Service if he's
Behind Bars what do you make of this
well that's ridiculous that means that
they want him killed uh because he's
obviously a Target we live in an age
where everybody is in danger look Bobby
Kennedy ought to be getting uh uh Secret
Service protection but certainly Donald
Trump needs to get a secret service
protection look he's not going to jail
um but if he goes to jail obviously the
law requires Secret Service Secret
Service protection uh we had a
presidential candidate once running from
prison he got over a million votes
that's not going to happen here the
judge is going to Bluff and fine and
regret but he's not going to throw
Donald Trump in jail okay so let's
assume as a country we'd rather Donald
Trump not being murdered in prison which
means he's going to have to have
separation from the general population
that means solitary
confinement that's what it means he's
going to have his own wing and the in
the adjoining cells I guess they'll take
the doors off and make them into little
apartments is going to be secret service
and the Secret Service is going to have
guns and weapons now you may not know
this from all the movies and television
out there but you're not generally
allowed to have a weapon unless you're a
guard but the secret service is going to
have to be given special dispensation to
protect the former president and
candidate for office Donald Trump so you
got Secret Service in there they're
going to jail with their weapons in a
segregated area for Trump and this is
all being considered I mean there's
already a
quote from uh uh Martin horn who's with
the New York prison system like this is
unchartered
territory that is the understatement of
at least the day yes this is unchartered
territory uh on the uh that that the
leadership of the prison systems law
enforcement and Secret Service are
talking about the the possibility that
Donald Trump can be jailed I know
there's a huray going out in the
audience right now they're finally
talking about it um but I wanted to
bring it to your attention now because
frankly the New York Times broken at the
story it's it's already out there and I
want to give it to you from my
perspective will this weigh on the mind
of Judge Maran when he makes his
decision about contempt slightly um you
know there there's a piece of me and
I've said it on legal AF that thinks
don't make him a bigger martyr than he
already is don't he he's he's he's he's
inviting it the prosecutors have said it
in the courtroom during the contempt
hearing judge he's inviting you he he's
he's uh he wants you to send him to jail
uh do it but you know what would happen
among mag red if he were sent to jail
for a couple of days I'm not saying
that's the condition he should be
treated like anybody else although we
have to recognize he hasn't been treated
like anybody else to date so we'll leave
it to judge Maran who's been doing the
right thing all this time about what to
do with him but if he is sent away there
is a let's just put it this way he takes
a lot of luggage and baggage along with
him he needs to be protected he needs to
be have Secret Service they have to have
guns those people have to be housed and
fed they have to be rotated out right
unless they create a super max prison
just for Donald Trump I guess they could
build that you know if you listen to the
Republicans they think you know we're on
the road to all former presidents
eventually being prosecuted convicted
and jail maybe we need a special prison
built just for former elected officials
and and uh and presidents who knows I
I'm I'm I just as you could probably
tell from from my tongue in cheek but
you know what I take away from this is a
certain amount of comfort that they're
even talking about it and as I I
jokingly started the hotti this is a um
glass ceiling that has been broken you
know sort of a seal that has been broken
much the way for me when Alvin Bragg and
the Manhattan DA got the first
indictment against Donald Trump
everybody said not in our audience but
in general everybody said oh we'll never
see the day when Donald Trump is brought
to Justice and then when then when he
was indicted and arraigned it was oh
that's the wrong case we' rather it be
another case okay so then was Georgia it
sort of Alvin brag gave permission to
other prosecutors to show that a former
president could be indicted Alvin Bragg
also gave permission and broke the glass
ceiling and signaled to other
prosecutors and attorney generals around
the country that you could um in uh
convict uh for financial fraud entities
close to Donald Trump when he got a 17c
count criminal conviction of his two MA
Trump's two major companies two years
ago you know this is the signal this is
the tone from the Top If you will having
given that permission broken that
ceiling then came fonny Willis Fon
County district attorney and her more
sprawling sweeping racketeering
indictment of Donald Trump and
arraignment along with his Co
conspirators then you had Jack Smith
following behind as the special counsel
indicting twice Mara Lago and in the DC
election interference case so but we
still have naysayers he'll never be
brought to Justice you are watching him
being brought to Justice right the
revolution may not be televised but
parts of the criminal case against
Donald Trump are and if they're not
televised we're doing what we can on
YouTube and on our podcast legal AF uh
to bring this information to you searing
information that it is in real time with
the analysis alongside and so that's
what we do on this on this network so
now we're talking about a new glass
ceiling broken people can say that un
that that secret love language about
Donald Trump how will he be housed and
protected in jail or prison and now and
now we're off and running once you can
make that leap across that Rubicon and
you can start actually talking about
that then it normalizes the issue and we
can stop on other media I won't call
them mainstream I think we're mainstream
uh you can they can stop saying he'll
never be jailed because it's too hard
it's so hard we can't figure it out out
popac they're figuring it out that's the
reporting here I'm in New York that's
not a siren to take Donald Trump away
yet uh but they're working it out
they're professionals I'm sure I would
have loved to have been a fly on the
wall Secret Service calling law
enforcement calling a prison director
about hm this is becoming more of a
reality how do we what what do we do
next I almost did my Bane voice from
Batman when he was in prison what do we
do now Batman
man I'll continue to report with or
without uh bad impersonations on legal
AF every Wednesday and Saturday at 8:00
pm Eastern Time right here on the Midas
touch Network you want to know why we
call it legal AF join the show join the
audience you'll know why we curate and
Cate and whatever other word I can think
of um and cultivate and curate the best
five stories at the intersection of Law
and politics I don't know why I'm so
Punchy today I was down at the
courthouse maybe that's what did it um
and we bring it to you with analysis uh
Wednesdays with me and Caren Freeman
nifo Saturdays with me and Ben my Salis
then on hot takes just like this one as
we follow Trump on trial so until my
next hot take until my next legal AF
until my next patreon exclusive video
about law and politics this is Michael
popac reporting
MeidasTouch
Apr 23, 2024
The glass ceiling has been broken: The Secret Service IS IN TALKS with Law Enforcement & PRISON OFFICIALS about HOW TO JAIL TRUMP! Michael Popok breaks down the logistics being discussed either if Trump is jailed for contempt OR is sentenced to jail or prison for a criminal conviction. It is getting real….
Transcript
this Michael popak legal AF hot-take well
the glass ceiling has been broken the
Secret Service is talking about the
possibility that Donald Trump could be
jailed or imprisoned as a result of one
of his criminal trials we always thought
they were talking about it behind the
scenes but the New York Times reports
that yes the Secret Service is in talks
with law enforcement under a scenario
where Donald Trump would be jailed let
me uh make a distinction here jail is
likely a possible result for Donald
Trump being found in contempt of court
by judge Maran for violating the gag
order if that happens yeah there's a
jail in the back of the
courthouse it's like a it's like a
cooling off tank but there's actually a
jail in New York called Riker's Island
which if it were longer than a short
amount of time I think you would be
transported to but talk about what the
New York Times is reporting as the
logistics that the Secret Service who
has Donald Trump as a requirement their
remit to defend him meaning the secret
service is going to jail too or prison
now let me talk about prison if he is
sentenced in a state system like the New
York state supreme court jury right now
considering the election interference uh
uh business fraud
case then Donald Trump is not sent to a
prison per se he's sent likely to
Riker's Island at least that's where the
average Garden variety convicted
criminal goes in New York York it's not
a fun place it's not a nice place it's
one of the worst jails in the country
and let's just hold that thought for a
minute if he gets convicted in the
federal system then he's under the
control of the Federal Bureau of Prisons
the bop and the bop and the director of
the Bureau of Prisons has to decide
sometimes in consultation with the judge
um and the uh uh parole and sentencing
uh Department of the of the um
Department of Justice as to which
facility is right for Donald Trump that
we generally refer to as a prison the
secret service has to get their arms and
Minds around the possibility that Donald
Trump is going to jail or prison the New
York Times reports the thing that
instigated it it took it out of the
world of conjecture and speculation into
the world of Donald Trump potentially
wearing a jumpsuit meaning the that the
Secret Service who didn't sign up for
this per se is going to jail too is the
contempt hearing going on in New York we
don't have a ruling yet we will maybe by
the time this hotti goes up about
whether judge Maran first in an exercise
of progressive discipline fines Donald
Trump up to $1,000 a day that's the
maximum in New York after that it would
be jail time in the courthouse there's a
jail or in Riker's Island so how to
protect the guy running for the
presidency who already has a secret
service detail and under on the off
chance that he Were Somehow sent back by
the American electorate back to the
white house uh Heaven de Betsy shutter
to think then what would happen so they
got to think about these eventualities
now the secret service is going to stay
with Donald Trump even if he goes if
he's incarcerated in one of these
facilities I just outlined prison jail
he won't be in the general population
they're already talking and that's the
new reporting law enforcement the the
the directors of the jail and prison
system in New York and Secret Service
leadership is talking about how to
protect Donald Trump inside right how do
you do it because there's no talk yet of
of allowing him to serve out his time in
some other facility like a uh
decommissioned army base or a hospital
of some sort so if he's going to go in
he's going to have to be separated from
general population because even the
Trump supporters think he'll be murdered
in prison how do I know that Alan dtz a
leading lawyer for Donald Trump big
supporter of Donald Trump constitutional
scholar uh somebody who got OJ off and
not be convicted he said exactly that on
news TI a listen his wife and his
children real quickly uh Professor I
want to ask you one question here this
was news over the weekend former head of
the January 6 committee Congressman
Bernie uh Benny rather Thompson he wants
to strip Trump of his secret service
protection uh that uh he gets and that's
if he's convicted of this crime so he
would not have Secret Service if he's
Behind Bars what do you make of this
well that's ridiculous that means that
they want him killed uh because he's
obviously a Target we live in an age
where everybody is in danger look Bobby
Kennedy ought to be getting uh uh Secret
Service protection but certainly Donald
Trump needs to get a secret service
protection look he's not going to jail
um but if he goes to jail obviously the
law requires Secret Service Secret
Service protection uh we had a
presidential candidate once running from
prison he got over a million votes
that's not going to happen here the
judge is going to Bluff and fine and
regret but he's not going to throw
Donald Trump in jail okay so let's
assume as a country we'd rather Donald
Trump not being murdered in prison which
means he's going to have to have
separation from the general population
that means solitary
confinement that's what it means he's
going to have his own wing and the in
the adjoining cells I guess they'll take
the doors off and make them into little
apartments is going to be secret service
and the Secret Service is going to have
guns and weapons now you may not know
this from all the movies and television
out there but you're not generally
allowed to have a weapon unless you're a
guard but the secret service is going to
have to be given special dispensation to
protect the former president and
candidate for office Donald Trump so you
got Secret Service in there they're
going to jail with their weapons in a
segregated area for Trump and this is
all being considered I mean there's
already a
quote from uh uh Martin horn who's with
the New York prison system like this is
unchartered
territory that is the understatement of
at least the day yes this is unchartered
territory uh on the uh that that the
leadership of the prison systems law
enforcement and Secret Service are
talking about the the possibility that
Donald Trump can be jailed I know
there's a huray going out in the
audience right now they're finally
talking about it um but I wanted to
bring it to your attention now because
frankly the New York Times broken at the
story it's it's already out there and I
want to give it to you from my
perspective will this weigh on the mind
of Judge Maran when he makes his
decision about contempt slightly um you
know there there's a piece of me and
I've said it on legal AF that thinks
don't make him a bigger martyr than he
already is don't he he's he's he's he's
inviting it the prosecutors have said it
in the courtroom during the contempt
hearing judge he's inviting you he he's
he's uh he wants you to send him to jail
uh do it but you know what would happen
among mag red if he were sent to jail
for a couple of days I'm not saying
that's the condition he should be
treated like anybody else although we
have to recognize he hasn't been treated
like anybody else to date so we'll leave
it to judge Maran who's been doing the
right thing all this time about what to
do with him but if he is sent away there
is a let's just put it this way he takes
a lot of luggage and baggage along with
him he needs to be protected he needs to
be have Secret Service they have to have
guns those people have to be housed and
fed they have to be rotated out right
unless they create a super max prison
just for Donald Trump I guess they could
build that you know if you listen to the
Republicans they think you know we're on
the road to all former presidents
eventually being prosecuted convicted
and jail maybe we need a special prison
built just for former elected officials
and and uh and presidents who knows I
I'm I'm I just as you could probably
tell from from my tongue in cheek but
you know what I take away from this is a
certain amount of comfort that they're
even talking about it and as I I
jokingly started the hotti this is a um
glass ceiling that has been broken you
know sort of a seal that has been broken
much the way for me when Alvin Bragg and
the Manhattan DA got the first
indictment against Donald Trump
everybody said not in our audience but
in general everybody said oh we'll never
see the day when Donald Trump is brought
to Justice and then when then when he
was indicted and arraigned it was oh
that's the wrong case we' rather it be
another case okay so then was Georgia it
sort of Alvin brag gave permission to
other prosecutors to show that a former
president could be indicted Alvin Bragg
also gave permission and broke the glass
ceiling and signaled to other
prosecutors and attorney generals around
the country that you could um in uh
convict uh for financial fraud entities
close to Donald Trump when he got a 17c
count criminal conviction of his two MA
Trump's two major companies two years
ago you know this is the signal this is
the tone from the Top If you will having
given that permission broken that
ceiling then came fonny Willis Fon
County district attorney and her more
sprawling sweeping racketeering
indictment of Donald Trump and
arraignment along with his Co
conspirators then you had Jack Smith
following behind as the special counsel
indicting twice Mara Lago and in the DC
election interference case so but we
still have naysayers he'll never be
brought to Justice you are watching him
being brought to Justice right the
revolution may not be televised but
parts of the criminal case against
Donald Trump are and if they're not
televised we're doing what we can on
YouTube and on our podcast legal AF uh
to bring this information to you searing
information that it is in real time with
the analysis alongside and so that's
what we do on this on this network so
now we're talking about a new glass
ceiling broken people can say that un
that that secret love language about
Donald Trump how will he be housed and
protected in jail or prison and now and
now we're off and running once you can
make that leap across that Rubicon and
you can start actually talking about
that then it normalizes the issue and we
can stop on other media I won't call
them mainstream I think we're mainstream
uh you can they can stop saying he'll
never be jailed because it's too hard
it's so hard we can't figure it out out
popac they're figuring it out that's the
reporting here I'm in New York that's
not a siren to take Donald Trump away
yet uh but they're working it out
they're professionals I'm sure I would
have loved to have been a fly on the
wall Secret Service calling law
enforcement calling a prison director
about hm this is becoming more of a
reality how do we what what do we do
next I almost did my Bane voice from
Batman when he was in prison what do we
do now Batman
man I'll continue to report with or
without uh bad impersonations on legal
AF every Wednesday and Saturday at 8:00
pm Eastern Time right here on the Midas
touch Network you want to know why we
call it legal AF join the show join the
audience you'll know why we curate and
Cate and whatever other word I can think
of um and cultivate and curate the best
five stories at the intersection of Law
and politics I don't know why I'm so
Punchy today I was down at the
courthouse maybe that's what did it um
and we bring it to you with analysis uh
Wednesdays with me and Caren Freeman
nifo Saturdays with me and Ben my Salis
then on hot takes just like this one as
we follow Trump on trial so until my
next hot take until my next legal AF
until my next patreon exclusive video
about law and politics this is Michael
popac reporting
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