by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 25, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/25/ ... transcript
Bergen-Belsen 1945.
George Rodger The LIFE Picture Collection
At least 320 bodies have been discovered buried in a mass grave at the destroyed Nasser Medical Complex in Khan Younis, just weeks after a similar mass grave containing up to 400 bodies was discovered amid the ruins of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. Some of the bodies, which include children, medical staff and patients, appear to have been executed or buried alive. Meanwhile, Israel continues its bombardment of Gaza as its assault of the beleaguered enclave surpasses 200 days. “Every single body that is being unearthed, you find tens of people rushing for the sake of identifying whether those are their relatives,” says Akram al-Satarri, a journalist based in Gaza. “Some of the people were tied. Some of the people had medical accessories on their hands, like the cannulas. And when they were unearthed from the ground, it was apparent that they were buried alive. Some people were tortured. Some of the bodies were extremely mutilated, which means that those bodies, some of their organs were taken by the Israeli occupation.”
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: In Gaza, medics and Civil Defense workers are still recovering bodies from mass graves found at the Nasser Medical Complex for the sixth day in a row following Israel’s siege on the hospital. Over 320 bodies have so far been discovered, including women, children, patients and medical staff, according to Al Jazeera. Another mass grave with up to 400 bodies was discovered weeks earlier at Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. Civil Defense officials have said bodies were found stacked together and showed indications of field executions or being buried alive. The United Nations and the European Union have called for an independent probe into the mass graves, and the White House on Wednesday also called for an investigation.
This comes as Israel continues its bombardment of Gaza, with at least 43 people killed over the last 24 hours, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. At least five of them were killed in the southern city of Rafah, where Israel has conducted near-daily airstrikes as it prepares for an offensive in the city.
AMY GOODMAN: A spokesperson for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government told Reuters Israel is moving ahead with a ground operation in Rafah, but gave no timeline. An unnamed Israeli defense official said Israel had bought 40,000 tents, each able to hold between 10 and 12 people, to house Palestinians evacuated from Rafah ahead of its assault on the city. Israeli news outlets report Israel will forcibly evacuate civilians to the nearby city of Khan Younis, which has been virtually destroyed by Israeli forces. Over 1.3 million Palestinians are seeking shelter in Rafah, the southernmost city in Gaza.
We go now to Rafah, in Gaza, where we’re joined by Akram al-Satarri, a journalist based in Gaza.
Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Akram. Just moments ago, Palestinian officials held a press conference in Rafah regarding the mass graves at the Nasser Medical Complex. Can you tell us the latest? I know there’s a delay in the broadcast.
AKRAM AL-SATARRI: Good morning, Amy, to you and all the viewers.
I have just come back from Khan Younis area. I was at Nasser Hospital. I spoke to the Civil Defense official who’s now giving this press conference about the situation in Nasser Hospital and about the number of the people who were killed, the way they were killed, and an account of the potential suffering they had been seeing even before they did.
It looks like the mass graves, the three different mass graves, are containing around 700 bodies. Up to this particular moment, around 400 bodies were unearthed and discovered. Around 300 bodies or even more are still in the ground. The bulldozer — one bulldozer, because of the very limited resources, working — is working there for the sake of just digging out the bodies.
Family members are lined up there. Family members are trying and rushing with passion and with great deal of sorrow to identify the bodies of their dears. Some of them managed to identify the bodies. Then you hear the outcry. You hear the people screaming, crying and mourning the death of their dears. But at the very same time, they feel a little bit relief, because they finally found the body of their dears.
I spoke to a mother who’s around 42, 43 years old. She was trying to identify her son. And then she found the body of her son. She was crying. The sister also, her daughter, was crying. And they were calling for the family to come and join them in the burial, because in our culture as Muslims and Arabs, we find a burial as the best fitting homage for the people who are dead.
People are continuously digging out the bodies. People are continuously — and this is very ironic — they’re trying to save the dead. People, when they die, are supposed to be resting in peace. And I was saying that people in Gaza, when they die, they’re neither resting nor in peace. The bodies, those bodies, were collected twice by the Israeli occupation forces. They were taken for some forensic investigation. They were returned to Nasser Hospital. They’re stockpiled in this very big hall, three different halls. And then they were buried. And then, a second time, the Israeli occupation forces came back to Nasser Hospital. They invaded all different departments of the hospital. They targeted the specialized surgery department, the reception and emergency. And they once again unearthed those hundreds of bodies and took them once again. And then they returned them to this mass grave or mass graves. So, the suffering even for the dead people in Gaza is still continuous.
And the heartache for their families is nonstop. Every single body that is being unearthed, you find tens of people rushing for the sake of identifying whether those are their relatives or otherwise. You see also many families looking into these individual graves in the Nasser Hospital area. You see written on the tombstone that “This guy is a tall guy. He has long hair. He’s wearing a gray shirt. And this is all we know.” And then it’s up to the family to try and to find and for people to recall what their dears were wearing the day they were parting from them, what were they wearing the day they were killed. So, a very emotionally draining process.
The numbers are quite shocking. But the account of the loss and the death that led to that eventual mass grave is extremely shocking, where some of the people — like you have just said, some of the people were tied. Some of the people had medical accessories on their hands, like the cannulas. And when they were unearthed from the ground, it was apparent that they were buried alive. Some people were tortured. Some of the bodies were extremely mutilated, which means that those bodies, some of their organs were taken by the Israeli occupation. Some lost their eyes. I could see some bodies with no eyes. I could see some bodies with no liver, with no kidney, some bodies that are — you see them, like the outer skin is just covering the skeleton, and that’s it. So, the account of that experience is quite heart-wrenching.
The families that have been suffering for the sake of just identifying their dears are also broken. They have been crying. But at least they say, “We feel comfortable because we found our dear.” So, it gives you an insight, a glimpse, into the suffering people of Gaza have been living. It gives you a glimpse into the bereavement the women, men, children and girls in Gaza have been experiencing for the last six months also.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Akram al-Satarri, just for our audience to know, you know, whenever we speak to you, we have — there’s this constant noise around you, and those are drones, of course, flying overhead, as they have been for months now. But if you could respond? You know, the European Union, the United Nations and now also the United States have called for an independent investigation into these mass graves. So, your response to that? And we’re speaking to you in Rafah. If you could also describe what conditions there are on the ground?
AKRAM AL-SATARRI: Well, as to the independent scrutiny or investigation committee that needs to be developed, I’ve been working in journalism for around 16 years now. I have been hearing about the independent committees, commissions, inquiries, fact-finding committees and international reports and tribunals about the situation in Gaza, looking into the particular details of the incidents that were taking place, investigating the death of several people in mass killing incidents, including the war in 2008, the war in 2014 and the war in 2021. I have been hearing a book about Gaza and the war in Gaza from 2014, and I was reading the exact words that I’m going to say now: “Palestinians struggle to dig out the bodies.” So, this is something that happened in 2014. This is something that happened in 2008. This is something that happened in ’21, ’22 and is still happening throughout 2023 and 2024.
The international community has failed to preserve and — to preserve and observe the dictates of the international humanitarian law. The humanity at large is facing a challenge. All the political systems worldwide are asked now and expected to do something tangible for the sake of just saving the Gaza Strip. Rhetoric is no longer needed. Rhetoric is no longer satisfactory. We need them to do something tangible to stop the things that are happening in Gaza.
Some of the things that Gazans are suggesting, the no-fly zone to protect the civilians in Gaza. Some of the things that Gazans are suggesting, that Israel should be held accountable for what they call crimes that were committed against the humanity, against people, against civilians. The international humanitarian law is rich with terms and vocab that are related to the, what they call the civil objects, civil objects that are protected, journalists that are protected, medical teams that are supposed to be protected, medical facilities that are supposed also to be protected. But when you review the shocking numbers about the way that the journalists are being killed, for instance, the medical teams are being killed, for instance, you conclude that the international community is failing so far to do something tangible, rather than the statements, the condemnations, the calls for independent inquiries or commissions to look into the investigation. We need something tangible. And that something tangible has not been achieved so far. And Gazans have been dying constantly because of that.
Something should be done. Something swift should be done. Otherwise, the death would continue. Now in Gaza today, 79 people were killed. And an average number of around 65 to 79 is killed every day. And if nothing is done, this means the international community accepts the killing of Gazans and accepts the justification of Israel to continue that killing. [coughs] Sorry.
And when it comes to the situation in Rafah, in Rafah, around 1.4 to 1.2 million, because of the influx of people from Rafah in the last few days. People are so scared because of the looming ground operation. They understand that the Israeli occupation is going to target them, and they understand that death would be chasing them. So some of them moved from Rafah. Around 150,000 Gazans have already left Rafah and moved to the area in al-Mawasi, a buffer zone between Rafah and Khan Younis, in the hope that they would survive. The ones who are in Rafah and the ones who are in Khan Younis and the ones in Gaza, at the entirety of Gaza, are all IDPs, around 2.1 million IDPs, because of the destruction of the infrastructure, the destruction of the homes, the destruction of the streets, and because of the continuous bombardment that has been taking their life. And those people are living in areas that have no infrastructure. No infrastructure means that they don’t have water supplies that are regular. They don’t have sewage systems. They don’t have food. They don’t have even drinkable water with which they can cook the food. They don’t have houses. They’re living in tents. And today is a very hot day. Today and yesterday were very hot days in this specific season. And now people in the tents are struggling. They are sweating all day. The children that have respiratory — even the adults that have some respiratory disorders are suffering more than any other people, and this suffering is continuous.
And this situation, when it comes to the humanitarian situation in Gaza, is unbearable, unimaginable and unacceptable. When I tell you the situation is unimaginable, because, for me, some parts of Gaza and some part of those camps that I have seen, the suffering of the people is unimaginable. You will see them living just by the minimum, and even there is no minimum. And they have no other choice to continue living and waiting and hoping some solution would be developed or concluded sometime soon. This is the truth about the situation, something I have never seen in my life, let alone someone who’s living thousands of miles away from Gaza.
People are buried in the streets. People are buried on the pavement. People are buried everywhere, in their homes. And some of the bodies, around 10,000 bodies, are in Gaza, are still under the rubble, and they have not been retrieved so far. You walk down the streets, and you smell death everywhere. You go to the hospital, that is supposed to be the temple of protection and humanity, you find the hospital totally devastated by death. You find the patients, who were supposed to be receiving the medical treatments, buried within the hospital. And you smell their decomposed bodies after the bodies were desecrated and unearthed. And wherever you turn your face, you see the children, you see the adults, you see the women and the men, the girls and the boys, suffering from that unjust situation that is still continuous. And no one single international power could stop that or bring an end to that ongoing suffering and misery.
AMY GOODMAN: Akram al-Satarri, we want to thank you so much for being with us. Be safe. Akram is a Gaza-based journalist, speaking to us from Rafah.
***
Amnesty International: Global Breakdown of Int’l Law Amid Flagrant War Crimes in Gaza & Beyond
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 25, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/25/ ... transcript
Amnesty International has released its annual report assessing human rights in 155 countries. The report highlights Israel’s assault on Gaza with evidence of war crimes continuing to mount, as well as U.S. failures to denounce rights violations committed by Israel. It also points to Russia’s ongoing aggression against Ukraine, and the rise of authoritarianism and massive rights violations in Sudan, Ethiopia and Myanmar. We speak to Agnès Callamard, the organization’s secretary general, who warns “the international system is on the brink of collapse” and decries the failure of rights mechanisms and Israel’s top ally, the United States, to rein in its “unprecedented” assault on Gaza.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: “The world is reaping a harvest of terrifying consequences from escalating conflict and the near breakdown of international law,” Amnesty International said yesterday as it launched its annual report on human rights in 155 countries. The report highlights Israel’s assault on Gaza with evidence of war crimes continuing to mount, as well as U.S. failures to denounce rights violations committed by Israel. It also called out Russia’s ongoing aggression against Ukraine and pointed to the rise of authoritarianism and massive rights violations in Sudan, Ethiopia and Myanmar.
AMY GOODMAN: Amnesty International Secretary General Agnès Callamard said, quote, “Israel’s flagrant disregard for international law is compounded by the failures of its allies to stop the indescribable civilian bloodshed meted out in Gaza. Many of those allies were the very architects of that post-World War II system of law,” end-quote. Well, Agnès Callamard joins us now from London.
Welcome to Democracy Now! We so appreciate you being on with us. If you can start off by talking about the situation in Gaza right now? You just heard in our previous segment the Gaza-based journalist describing the discovery of the hundreds of bodies in a mass grave at the Nasser Medical Complex following Israel’s siege of the hospital. What are you calling for right now?
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Thank you very much for welcoming me on your program.
You know, I have listened to the journalist, and what can we — what can I add more? Since October 7, we have been documented a plethora of violations committed, first by Hamas and then by the Israeli authorities. But in particular, the Israeli authorities have been — you know, have committed an extraordinary amount of violations of international law, the indiscriminate and targeted bombing of civilians. We know now that there is at least 30,000 of them that have been killed. Seventy percent of the infrastructure of Gaza have been destroyed. I’m talking civilian infrastructure — schools, hospitals, cemeteries, cultural institutions. We know that there has been the highest number of journalists killed in any conflict, the highest number of humanitarian workers killed in any conflict. We know that famine is being used as a weapon of war. We know that collective punishment has been waged against the Palestinian people. And we also know of, you know, clear evidence of extrajudicial killings, as highlighted by the discovery of those mass graves, that are coming on top of all the detentions and use of torture and ill-treatment. So, the scale of the violations committed over the last six months is unprecedented. And I want to insist on that. It is unprecedented. The harm to civilians is unprecedented.
And what is making matters worse is that this is all broadcasted every day in front of our very eyes, and yet nothing — nothing — is being done to prevent that bloodshed. The United States has been using its right of veto at the Security Council to prevent any kind of meaningful intervention. It has shielded Israel from the denunciation that was required. It has protected them. It has pretended for the longest period of time that no violations were committed.
This is why Amnesty International is concluding that the international system is on the brink of collapse right now. International law is not just violated. People who are violating international law are justifying their violations. And that means they are pretending that international law either has no meaning or does not apply to them. But whatever intention they have, the outcome is the emptying out of international law, the emptying out of the Geneva Convention, that was supposed to regulate war, the emptying out of the Genocide Convention, the emptying out of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the completely uselessness of the Security Council. We have an International Court of Justice that could play a role, and yet its rulings are being ignored. So, all in all, coming on the heels of Russia’s aggression of Ukraine, the only conclusion that we can reach is that the international system is collapsing and that the world is being plunged back to where we were promised will happen again.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Dr. Agnès Callamard, we want to go to U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan, who on Wednesday called for an investigation into the mass graves at Nasser Hospital.
JAKE SULLIVAN: We have been in touch at multiple levels with the Israeli government. We want answers. We want to understand exactly what happened. You have seen some public commentary from the IDF on that, but we want to know the specifics of what the circumstances of this were. And we want to see this thoroughly and transparently investigated, so that the whole world can have a comprehensive answer, and we, the United States, can, as well.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, that’s Jake Sullivan speaking Wednesday. If you could respond to that, and what kind of investigation you believe needs to happen? And who should conduct this investigation?
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Well, first and foremost, Amnesty International and others have been calling for those investigations for a very long time. The journalist that was speaking before me pointed out that those investigations have been called on since 2014, and nothing has ever happened. You cannot rely on the Israeli authorities to deliver any kind of meaningful investigation.
Right now no one can enter Gaza. No one can provide the expertise required for this investigation. We have mass graves. People are looking — and that’s absolutely humane — are looking for their loved ones, which means that the crime scene itself is going to be meaningless within a few hours or a few days. There are absolutely nobody there who can protect the crime scene, who can provide the necessary expertise so that at least we have a sense of how people died, when did they die, and the kind of violations that have been perpetrated against them. So, yes, we want an investigation, but I don’t think this is a genuine demand for an investigation. People know that mass graves are extremely fragile. And right now there are probably no crime scene left to be investigated effectively.
But we don’t need that investigation to conclude that Israel has been committing war crimes after war crimes after war crimes. We have plenty of evidence since October 7 of many of those violations. We at Amnesty International have documented, with good evidence, indiscriminate shelling of civilians. We know from people on the ground that almost all civilians’ infrastructures have been destroyed. And this cannot be justified just by the notion of military objective, of military necessity. We have the evidence required to conclude that Israel has, you know, repeatedly, repeatedly, to an extent unprecedented, unprecedented extent, violated international law.
It is now time for the United States, more than time — it’s too late, in fact — for the United States to take a stand, to denounce Israel’s violations, to stop arming Israel — because that’s what they are still doing — and to do everything in their power to put an end to this bloodshed, to the killings of the Palestinians that we are all witnessing, that we are all made to witness.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk, Dr. Callamard, about the U.S. disconnect of the Biden administration, on the one hand calling vaguely for a ceasefire and saying, from Blinken to President Biden, their hearts are broken when it comes to Palestinian casualties, but on the other hand continuing to supply the weapons?
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: It’s not a disconnect. I think it’s very well organized and very well scripted. You know, they are making some sound that they feel they have to make, but that has absolutely no impact on their actions. We are now middle of April. A month ago, finally, the United States agreed to a ceasefire, adding, though, that it was nonbinding. So, you know, that also shows that their heart was not really into the ceasefire.
AMY GOODMAN: The last one, the U.S. abstained.
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Yes, and insisting that the ceasefire was actually not — that the resolution was nonbinding. They have had plenty of opportunities since October 7 to demand a ceasefire, but they use their right of veto to stop it — and let me add, and as well as the release of all hostages. So, you know, it’s not a disconnect. I think it’s a very well-planned, very well-scripted commitment to support Israel all the way, including to a possible genocide, because let’s recall that the International Court of Justice has concluded that the risks of genocide were extremely high. And we have every evidence in front of us of those risks. Indeed, some eminent legal scholars have concluded that genocide was already occurring.
So the United States is providing support to a country that is violating international law repeatedly, that is justifying those violations in the name of going after Hamas, without due respect for the proportionality and the discrimination that should accompany their actions. By so doing, the United States is making itself complicit to some of the worst possible crimes being committed right now.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Dr. Agnès Callamard, if you could put this in the wider context of what your report finds? You’ve said that the world is facing the demise of the 1948 international order created after the Second World War —
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Yeah.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: — amid both the conflict in Gaza and in Ukraine. If you could elaborate on your conclusions?
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Sure. So, I’ve already highlighted what’s happening in Gaza and how Israel is violating international law and is justifying those violations. This is coming hot on the heels of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, itself a violation of the U.N. Charter. Russia, too, is justifying its violation of international law. It’s justifying its violation of the U.N. Charter in the name of some kind of vision of its own security. Russia, too, has been justifying its repeated violations of international Geneva Convention through its bombardment of Ukrainians, through the forced transfer of populations. So, over the last 14 — 24 months, we have seen some of the main superpowers in this world claiming that the international legal system that was established after World War II does not apply to them. We have seen Russia doing that. We have seen Israel doing that. And we have seen the United States doing that by proxy through its support to Israel.
Those institutions that were established after World War II, including the Security Council and, later on, the International Criminal Court, the International Court of Justice, these are the backbone of preventing the very worst happening to the world. And those institutions have been rendered, you know, useless, really. The Security Council cannot do anything for peace and security because of the abuse of the veto power. The International Court of Justice is delivering very strong rulings that everyone is ignoring. The International Criminal Court is delivering warrants, including against President Putin, that most people are ignoring. So, those institutions, that are supposed to protect us all, are not protecting us anymore.
And the international legal framework, the international normative framework, is being progressively emptied out through those actions and through the justification of those violations. When Israel is saying, “International law does not apply to us because we have a well-founded military objective and military necessity,” they are pretending that this military necessity takes precedence over everything. That is not the case. That is not the case. When Russia is saying, “International U.N. Charter does not apply to us because of whatever NATO may be doing,” they are also emptying out the U.N. Charter. That is not the purpose of the U.N. Charter. That is not there to be violated by Russia in that way.
So, the entire legal normative framework right now is at risk of completely collapsing. And what do we have instead? Nothing. We have the power of the arms, the weapons. And, you know, we are basically going back to our pre-1940 situation. We are back to where we were supposed not to ever, ever again go back to.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And if you could also talk about, you know, a number of places that the report highlights that receive very little media attention, Myanmar and Sudan? If you could talk about the massive rights violations going on there?
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Yes, absolutely. And that, too, I should have mentioned. These are the so-called forgotten crises. They are characterized by massive violations by parties to that conflict. Sudan, in particular, has seen thousands of people dead over the last 12 months, the largest number of people, refugees, abroad in a very short period of time, the massive use of sexual violence, ethnic violence. And finally, when the Security Council took action — it took them almost a year — their resolution has been completely ignored. So, the suffering in Sudan is falling off the international agenda, and yet it is extremely, extremely heartbreaking.
In Myanmar, there, the military government has been protected by China. We finally saw the Security Council a year and a half ago taking a resolution, that was quite timid but a first step. But, meanwhile, the militaries have been armed by China. They have continued their indiscriminate or even targeted attacks on civilians throughout the territory. Hundreds of people have been arrested, tortured. Even political prisoners have been condemned to death and sentenced to death and killed. That’s the situation in Myanmar.
I’m not mentioning the Democratic Republic of Congo, that has completely fallen the agenda for the last 20, 30 years, and yet it is probably the longest-ever crisis, again, where no one is taking action or the kind of action that is being required.
So, the forgotten crises around the world are multiplying. They are increasing, in fact. According to the experts, we are witnessing an increase in the number of armed conflicts around the world — a reflection of a very unstable international system, a reflection of the conflict between the three superpowers vying for hegemony — the United States, Russia and China. And the multiplication of those conflicts by proxy, I will say, between them, is costed in human lives, in hundreds and thousands, millions of human lives around the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Agnès Callamard, if you can talk about the alarm that you’re sounding in this report on artificial intelligence and its role in furthering racism, discrimination, division during public elections? You note the dominance of Big Tech risks a “supercharging” of human rights violations. Talk about what you see as the dangers.
AGNÈS CALLAMARD: Absolutely. So, we know that over the last 12 months we have seen generative artificial intelligence coming into our almost daily reality. It is a technology that no one really fully understands, certainly not politicians and policymakers. It is one that is completely unregulated as of now. And if what has happened with artificial intelligence, nongenerative one, is to be the benchmark by which to assess what is going to happen in the future, then we need to be very worried.
Over the last few years, Amnesty International has been monitoring how artificial intelligence, you know, through, for instance, platforms, social media platforms, in facial recognitions, through the spywares, all of those technologies have had a disastrous impact on human rights. Over the last 12 months in Facebook, for instance, platforms have been used to launch and to spread ethnic violence in Ethiopia. In Serbia, we have documented that semiautomated algorithms have been used, particularly in the context of the provision of public social assistance, in ways that has discriminated against Roma people and people with disability.
Spywares, that were denounced, that have been denounced since 2020, 2021, with the Pegasus Project, well, guess what: In 2023, we found more evidence of Pegasus being used in many countries around the world, including India, where we’re going to have elections coming up. So, the control of the spyware is not happening. In addition to Pegasus, that continue to be used around the world, we have monitored this year the use of the Predator Files, which is EU, European-based. And that, too, has been used and sold around the world, including against journalists, activists, human rights defenders.
So, abusive facial recognition, abusive mass surveillance, abusive use of spyware, all of those things are extremely dangerous for human rights, including in a context where there is a multiplication of armed conflict. And they should be the object of moratorium. We are calling, as well, on those Big Tech companies, whose business model is feeding the multiplication of data, of certain kind of data — we are calling on them, as well, A, to be much better regulated than they are now, but also to take action to regulate their own content.
But it’s the Wild West. It’s the Wild West in a context of the collapse of the international system. This is why we are sounding the alarm. I mean, you know, as of today, we have the international system on the brink of collapse. We have an industrial revolution, a revolution of information technology, that no one is regulating effectively and that has the potential to run, you know, a major disaster for societies. It is more than time — more than time — to wake up to the reality that we are confronting, if we want to deliver to our children and grandchildren a safer planet. I haven’t even mentioned the climate crisis in the midst of it all. So, I’m sorry if I’m being very apocalyptic here, but I think people need to wake up to that, to the reality that we are really, really facing an incredibly serious, dangerous situation for all of us.
AMY GOODMAN: Agnès Callamard, we want to thank you so much for being with us, Amnesty International secretary general, speaking to us from London.
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Hundreds Arrested: Students Across U.S. Protest for Palestine as Campus Crackdown Intensifies
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 25, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/25/ ... transcript
Student protests calling for university divestment from Israel and the U.S. arms industry have rocked campuses from coast to coast. The nonviolent protests, which have been characterized as “antisemitic” for their criticism of Israel, have been met with an intensifying police crackdown as university administrators threaten academic discipline and arrests. On Wednesday, local and state troopers violently arrested dozens at the University of Texas at Austin. Meanwhile, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson visited Columbia University in New York City, the site of a high-profile student encampment and one of the first to be met with police action, where he called on university president Minouche Shafik to resign. We hear from two Jewish students involved in protests at their schools. Joshua Sklar, a graduate student at the University of Texas at Austin and an organizer with Jewish Voice of Peace Austin, says concern over campus antisemitism is insincere, and that, in fact, “The people who are being targeted are Muslim students, Arab students, and especially Palestinian students.” Sklar and Sarah King, a member of Columbia University Apartheid Divest who was arrested at the campus’s Gaza Solidarity Encampment, also point out that a large percentage of protesters are Jewish anti-Zionists concerned about their safety from state repression. “The threat is really coming from Columbia University, which has set the police on hundreds of its students who are entrusted to its care,” says King.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Protests against Israel’s assault on Gaza have rocked campuses from coast to coast over the past week amid an intensifying police crackdown. At the University of Texas in Austin, school officials called in local and state police, including some on horseback, who violently broke up a student encampment on campus. At least 50 people were arrested, including at least one journalist. Some faculty at UT Austin are going on strike today to protest the police crackdown.
Meanwhile, the Gaza Solidarity Encampment at Columbia University continues a week after over a hundred students were arrested in a failed attempt by the university administration to clear the demonstration. University President Minouche Shafik had said on Tuesday — had set on Tuesday a midnight deadline to reach an agreement on clearing an encampment, but the school extended negotiations for another 48 hours. On a visit to campus Wednesday, House Speaker Mike Johnson called on Shafik to resign.
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON: I am here today joining my colleagues in calling on President Shafik to resign if she cannot immediately bring order to this chaos. As speaker of the House, I am committing today that the Congress will not be silent as Jewish students are expected to run for their lives and stay home from their classes, hiding in fear.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we’re joined in New York by Sarah King, member of Columbia University Apartheid Divest. She is Jewish, one of the students arrested at the encampment last week who’s now suspended. We’re also joined by Joshua Sklar, a graduate student at University of Texas Austin, a member of Jewish Voice for Peace Austin, who was at Wednesday’s protest.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Josh, there were more than 50 arrests at UT Austin. If you can respond to the House speaker, who’s saying that these encampments around the country are antisemitic and pro-Hamas?
JOSHUA SKLAR: It’s absolutely ridiculous. I was there with a contingent of Jewish students, and we were received very warmly. There were even Jewish Zionists there, and they were not harassed at all. In fact, I would say that they probably felt safer than the majority of protesters.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Sarah King, if you could describe what’s happening now at Columbia University and your own position? You were suspended?
SARAH KING: Yes, I was one of the over 100 students who was arrested as part of a peaceful protest in the Gaza Solidarity Encampment, and I’m one of the student who’s been suspended, as well, so I’m currently not allowed to be on campus. And I have to say it’s — the camp itself is very beautiful. It’s been a real place of interfaith celebration and solidarity, in support of the people of Gaza, who are now at over 200 days of genocide. But, you know, the threat is really coming from Columbia University, which has sent the police on hundreds of its students who are entrusted to its care.
AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk, Sarah, about what’s happened, how you got suspended and your treatment? I’ve been talking to a number of Columbia and Barnard students who said that some of them were given 15 minutes to get out of their dorm, and your meal card canceled, as you’re banned from campus, as well.
SARAH KING: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I’m one of the lucky ones, because I live off campus. But many students live in Columbia housing, and so they were evicted from their homes or locked out from their homes, probably illegally in many cases. We’re looking into it. And they lost access to their normal food. I had an undergraduate who is low-income and was staying with me, because she was evicted with no notice and lost access to her meal plan.
And it’s really very concerning the way Columbia uses the threat of — initially it was just — “just,” quote-unquote — the threat of housing, the threat of loss of food to try to — you know, as a cudgel to get students into the correct political line that is best for its pocketbook, its investment portfolio. And now they’re threatening to set the National Guard on us, risking another Jackson State, another Kent State, where students have been killed because the National Guard were set on students. And they’re willing to risk the threat of violence at their hands because we’re not, you know, consistent with what’s best for their board of trustees or for their portfolios.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Sarah, what about your response to Mike Johnson being invited to speak at Columbia University on campus yesterday?
SARAH KING: Yeah. I mean, first, I think it’s shameful that he was allowed there. Like, I myself am not allowed on campus. I’m, you know, one of many talented and promising students with bright futures who have been banned from campus, but Mike Johnson, who is an open racist and white supremacist, along with people like Gavin McInnes, the head of the Proud Boys, they were welcomed on campus yesterday.
And to me, that really tells the story of what’s at stake here, which is that, you know, the students fighting for Palestinian liberation are part of an interracial coalition — so many Jewish students, Muslim students, Black, Brown, Arab students — working together for the cause of freedom, on one side, and then, on the other side, you have political opportunists, like the House speaker, who, you know, will take any excuse they can get to come after that kind of interfaith, multigenerational coalition fighting for freedom. And right now it happens to be under the guise of something like antisemitism. But, you know, there’s no substance to it at all. And I think anybody who came to campus and saw, the worst prosecution that the Jewish students on campus are facing is from Columbia University. We were disproportionately banned by Columbia because so many of us are part of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment trying to prevent a genocide in our name.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Joshua Sklar, wrote a piece in The Austin Chronicle. “We need a ceasefire now,” it was called, the subtitle, “Anti-Palestinian violence is not 'on the other side of the globe.' It’s here in Austin, too.” If you can talk about that and how protesters were treated yesterday? You had riot police on horseback?
JOSHUA SKLAR: Yeah. I think that there’s been this narrative that there’s been rampant antisemitism. And this simply is not the case. The people who are being targeted are Muslim students, Arab students, and especially Palestinian students. Police came in on horseback, and they attacked protesters. I heard from other students that during an earlier part of the protest, they were clearly targeting Brown people and women. I wasn’t there personally, but this is what I heard.
AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask Sarah King a final question. We have 10 seconds. And that is, 48-hour extension goes ’til tonight. What are the plans? Ten seconds, Sarah.
SARAH KING: You know, I think most of the people at the encampment have already agreed to risk arrest, and they won’t move unless moved by force or until Columbia concedes to our demands, which are for divestment, amnesty and financial transparency.
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you both for being with us, Sarah King, Columbia University Apartheid Divest, and Joshua Sklar at UT Austin. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.