Historic Gaza Protests at Columbia U. Enter Day 6; Campus Protests Spread Across Country
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 22, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/ ... transcript
Columbia University canceled in-person classes Monday as campus protests over the war in Gaza enter a sixth day. The protests have swelled after the school administration called in the police to clear a student encampment last week, resulting in over 100 arrests. Solidarity protests and encampments have now sprouted up on campuses across the country, including at Yale, MIT, Tufts, NYU, The New School and University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Palestinian reporter Jude Taha, a journalism student at Columbia University, describes events on campus as “an unprecedented act of solidarity” that student organizers are modeling on antiwar protests in 1968. She says Columbia University President Minouche Shafik’s claims of an unsafe environment on campus are contradicted by the generally calm and productive atmosphere among the protesters, adding that the school’s heavy-handed response, including suspensions and evictions, is being seen as “an intimidation tactic” by organizers.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We begin here in New York, where Columbia University has canceled in-person classes today as campus protests over Israel’s war on Gaza enter a sixth day. Classes will be held online today. The protests have swelled after the arrest last week of over 100 students who had set up an encampment to call for the school to divest from Israel. Organizers say at least 50 students have been suspended from Barnard, 35 from Columbia. A growing number of Columbia and Barnard alumni, employees and guest speakers have also publicly condemned or announced they’re boycotting the prestigious institutions.
Over the weekend, solidarity protests and encampments also began on other college campuses here in New York City at NYU, at The New School, as well as across the country, including at Yale, MIT, Tufts, Vanderbilt and University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
We’re joined right now by two guests. In a moment we’ll speak with Columbia University professor Mahmood Mamdani, who addressed students participating in the Gaza Solidarity Encampment on Columbia’s campus multiple times last week. But we begin with Jude Taha, Palestinian Jordanian journalist and journalism student at Columbia University Journalism School. She’s on Columbia’s campus here in New York, where the student-led Gaza Solidarity Encampment is still underway. She’s joining us from her school at Columbia Journalism School right now.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Jude. Can you lay out what’s happened over the weekend, what are people’s demands, and the fact that today, the president — who all this happened a day after she testified before Congress — has shut down the university for in-person classes, all online today?
JUDE TAHA: Thank you for having me.
Right now what we’re seeing at Columbia is an unprecedented act of solidarity, set up by students who initially set it up on the South Lawn and then faced violent arrests and a lot of repression from administration and ended up moving to the opposing lawn. And what we’re seeing right now is just swaths of people, initially without tents, sleeping on the ground, in sleeping bags, some of them without sleeping bags, on grass, outside in the cold, under the rain.
And what we’re seeing is just they have three solid demands. The first is divestment. The second is for Columbia to disclose their financial investments and the financial records, especially in relation to their workings with Israel. And the third is amnesty toward students. The students have been very clear in the fact that they are not moving, that they are very set in their demands.
Some negotiations are happening, from what I’ve heard from organizers at the encampment. However, nothing has been announced yet. I know there are a few things that came up yesterday that were a bit surprising, which was the repitching of the tents. Organizers have said that the administration is aware of the tents; however, that does not necessarily mean that they agree. Organizers held a town hall last night where they emphasized that, obviously, with an act of solidarity and act of protest as large as this, to take over the space in the lawn comes a level of risk. And they are very comfortable in that. They are making sure everyone is aware. There is transparency, and there’s just a community being built. And they are very clear in their demands. They have three top demands, first and furthermost which is divestment.
AMY GOODMAN: So, Jude, if you can talk about the whole progression of what happened, from Shafik, President Shafik, testifying before Congress to these, I won’t say “unprecedented,” arrests — over a hundred students were arrested — but since, I think, 1968, the protests against the Vietnam War?
JUDE TAHA: I think what had happened initially was students showed up at the lawn at around 4:30 a.m. They are members of a solidarity group called Columbia University Apartheid Divest, which is made up of many student groups. And they had been planning this for months, according to my interviews with organizers. They studied the 1968 protests. They studied the tactics used. And they were prepared to go. Initially, we did not know this as outsiders. The tents were set up, and a lot of people were caught off guard. But this has been something that the organizers have planned for, especially in relation to Minouche Shafik’s hearing. But what happened is, after they set up tents, we quickly saw an outpour of support. Picket lines were forming. Students were joining from outside. And initially what I saw to be like 40 to 50 students is now, on the opposite lawn, nearly a hundred to a hundred students coming in and out of the encampment.
The arrests were shocking. However, what was truly inspiring to see is that students did not let that deter them. Shortly after the arrests were carried out and after protests were surrounding the lawn where the original encampment was at, students starting jumping into the opposing lawn and pitching up tents there. And this is a reaction not only to Columbia’s silencing of students and the fact that students feel unheard, uncared for and not represented well by the institution that they attend, but this is also, very much so, focused towards the ongoing genocide in Gaza and the way the students are feeling, seeing the massacres happen every day, with nearly over 30,000 people have been killed. Their frustration is that they are complicit in this and their university is complicit in this. And they want to make sure that their voices are heard. And they want to make sure that what they’re asking is met. And so, this is inspired by the 1968 protests. They just decided to follow course.
AMY GOODMAN: So, something unusual was tweeted on Friday. You’re speaking to us from the Columbia J School, from the Columbia Journalism School.
JUDE TAHA: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: I had just been at the protest after the arrests, the encampment on Thursday night. To say the least, it was not easy for anyone to get in who did not have a student ID. Even that won’t get you in right now. It was a true lockdown. And the next morning, at about 10:00, where you are, the Columbia J School tweeted, “Columbia Journalism School is committed to a free press. If you are a credentialed member of the media and have been denied access to campus, please send us a DM. We will facilitate access to campus.” This is a direct rebuke of the president, of President Shafik?
JUDE TAHA: I cannot — I cannot speak to that. I do know that our dean, Jelani Cobb, is very committed to having a space where freedom of press can thrive. And I know that Dean Cobb has been incredibly supportive of the students who have been reporting on this and is very interested in ensuring that media has access and that information is being transferred clearly and accurately. Whether it is a direct rebuke, that is unfortunately not something I am aware of.
However, I will say that since then, facilitating entrance has been increasingly challenging. I am not sure of the dynamics of the journalism school. I have been speaking with multiple journalists who are coming in to cover the encampment, and increasingly it’s been harder and harder to try and get them in. There has not been really any clear guidelines that I can share about what does that entail for the journalism school to facilitate, but what I have also been seeing is people are believing that the facilitation through the journalism school means access to the encampment. And I would like to emphasize the encampment is not facilitating with the journalism school. It is an entity that is functioning on its own. And it is a living space as much as it is, you know, a private space within the university. Students are very vulnerable there. They’re also very hesitant to speak to media. But while they do believe that the media presence is important, there has been this notion of belief that the journalism is facilitating access into the encampment, which is not true. The journalism school is helping facilitate entrance into campus for credentialed press.
AMY GOODMAN: And if you also can talk about what the police chief said in response to the Columbia president? New York Police Chief John Chell said President Shafik identified the demonstration as a “clear and present danger,” but that officers found the students to be peaceful and cooperative, Shafik warning all students participating in the encampment would be suspended. And the level of suspensions, Jude, if you can talk about that, both at Columbia and even more at Barnard, and what exactly this means? Students are locked out of their rooms almost immediately and lose their meal cards in addition to everything else?
JUDE TAHA: Yeah. To be quite honest, we have — me and a few other journalists have been reporting on this for months now. We are familiar with these students. We are familiar with these demands. And we were present from day one, from nearly 6:00 in the morning, in the original encampment. And there was no instance of violence that I am able to report. The protesters were incredibly peaceful. Their demands are largely focused on divestment. And they have community guidelines that they are asking everyone who is entering the encampment to abide by. And the community guidelines are to ensure safety, are to ensure that everyone feels comfortable in the space and to ensure that Gaza is being centered first.
In relation to what the police chief said, I have to agree that I was not able to identify any violence or any danger that is present from these students, especially right now in the second encampment, where there is a thriving community, where people are bringing food, blankets. Students are leaving their belongings, their personal belongings, for hours with no worry that they will be taken. There is no fear amongst them.
Therefore, it is truly an intimidation tactic, and the response that we have seen from President Minouche Shafik has been incredibly disheartening toward students. Students have been evicted. An organizer that I’ve spoken to yesterday is terrified. They are not comfortable walking out alone. They had to leave the state. They are being given 15 minutes to access their belongings. They are being suspended, with waiting for an appeal or waiting for a meeting with administration to understand the grounds of the suspension or what that entails. They are leaving students in limbo. The students do not feel supported. They do not know where they’re going. And it is incredibly disheartening and terrifying, for some are 18-, 19-year-olds, to be deserted by their campus.
And another thing is that the organizers have made it clear that this is an intimidation tactic by the administration, and especially in relation to President Shafik’s email that was sent at 1 a.m. last night. The organizers have stated that this is an intimidation tactic to try and scare people who are in the encampment out of their solidarity with the Gaza Solidarity Encampment and with the demands of the movement. But a lot of students are learning these risks, and they’re banding together and they’re standing together to demand amnesty. It is unclear why this is happening or the levels of suspension. Students who have been suspended but have not been evicted are concerned about when are they going to lose access to their housing. And students who have lost access to their housing were not given any clear instructions, as far as I know, for where to go next. So it is just this great limbo. And these students are sacrificing a lot for the movement and for the demands that they are asking for, but they are not being met with any support from administration or guidance. And it is unclear what President Shafik is citing when she says “danger.” And therefore, that is leaving a lot of organizers confused as to what is actually happening.
AMY GOODMAN: And among those arrested was Congressmember Ilhan Omar’s daughter, Isra Hirsi, both suspended and arrested. And finally, very quickly, before we go to professor Mamdani, the J school speaker for May 15th — and this is a long time away, so we’ll see what happens — is the Haaretz Israeli reporter Amira Hass, deeply critical of the occupation, of the war on Gaza, lived in Gaza, the only Israeli Jewish journalist to have lived there for years. Is that right?
JUDE TAHA: Yep, that is correct. As far as we know, that has not been changed. The speaker has been chosen for quite a long time now. And as far as I know, that has not been changed.
***
“No Due Process”: Columbia Prof. Mamdani Slams Arrests & Suspension of Students at Gaza Protests
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 22, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/ ... transcript
We speak with Mahmood Mamdani, a professor of government at Columbia who has spoken with many of the pro-Palestine protesters camping out on school grounds to show solidarity with Gaza and demand the school divest from Israel. He says there is growing outrage from faculty after the school’s leadership called in the police to raid the Gaza Solidarity Encampment and conduct mass arrests, while administrators have started suspending and evicting some students. “There has been no due process on the Columbia campus,” says Mamdani.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined by Mahmood Mamdani. Mahmood Mamdani is a Columbia University professor who addressed students participating in the Gaza Solidarity Encampment on the South Lawn in Columbia’s campus, professor of government and the author of a number of books, including Neither Settler Nor Native: The Making and Unmaking of Permanent Minorities.
Professor Mamdani, welcome back to Democracy Now! If you can just respond to what’s happening? Describe the scene as you gave your address to the students. You’ve spoken several times at the encampment.
MAHMOOD MAMDANI: I was asked by the Columbia divest committee to give a talk on the historical origins of the divestment campaign, particularly in South Africa. And I gave a talk which basically outlined that divestment was a response to settler colonialism. And I explained to them how you identify settler colonialism as a regime which has different sets of rules and laws for different groups of people in the same society; and, secondly, the point of these different rules and laws is to regulate unequal access to public resources, all the way from residence to occupation to public health to education and so on; and, finally, that this state, which enforces this unequal treatment, institutionalized, legally enforced unequal treatment of different groups, this state, its sovereignty is under the group that benefits from this inequality. So that’s the talk that I gave.
And the next day, I was invited back to talk again, because we had organized a faculty panel on antisemitism. And the point of this panel was to consider the report, the first report, of the antisemitism task force set up by the university. There were five of us on the panel. And I was invited to talk about that, which I did. And I told them that we went through this report, we combed through this report, because we had been — prior to the issue of the report, there had been a faculty discussion on what is antisemitism. And the co-chair of the panel had sort of said that, “No, we don’t have a definition of 'antisemitism,' but we know it when we hear it or when we see it.” She was using a judge’s response to a question decades ago on what you understand by “pornography.” But the problem was that this particular panel was supposed to educate the campus. So, for the rest of us who don’t know it when we see it or hear it, what is antisemitism? So we were reading the report to see if there was an answer in this.
And there was only one sentence in this report which referred to antisemitism, and that sentence said, roughly — I’m just paraphrasing it here — that many Jewish students who support the state of Israel are afraid, and many other Jewish students who are critical of the state of Israel are also afraid. So, this was no evidence of antisemitism. This was evidence of a dividing, of an increasing polarization amongst Jewish students, those for and those against the state of Israel. Apart from that, the entire report was like a law-and-order report. It was all about what kind of regulations, what kind of notice needs to be given in advance, where students can gather to demonstrate, where they cannot gather to demonstrate, the hours, etc., etc.
Prior to that report, there had been a statement signed by 18 deans of Columbia University which identified a set of slogans, which they said, believed had created and incited the climate on campus. And these slogans included “from the river to the sea,” “intifada,” “by any means necessary,” etc., etc. There were, I think, about six, seven slogans. I had written a piece in the Spectator saying —
AMY GOODMAN: The student newspaper.
MAHMOOD MAMDANI: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: The student newspaper.
MAHMOOD MAMDANI: The Spectator, the Columbia University newspaper. So, I had written a piece in it saying that these seven, eight different expressions indicated the lines of differences within the campus. And what’s the point of saying that these should not be discussed? If we want a discussion, then we should promote a discussion on this, not silence different voices on it.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to get your response, very quickly, to the president, to the White House, to read you a statement from Andrew Bates, the White House deputy press secretary, who said, “While every American has the right to peaceful [protest], calls for violence and physical intimidation targeting Jewish students and the Jewish community are blatantly Antisemitic, unconscionable, and dangerous — they have absolutely no place on any college campus, or anywhere in the United States of America. And echoing the rhetoric of terrorist organizations, especially in the wake of the worst massacre committed against the Jewish people since the Holocaust, is despicable. We condemn these statements in the strongest terms,” the White House deputy press secretary said. Your response, Professor Mamdani?
MAHMOOD MAMDANI: Well, I think calls for violence against any group of students, against Jewish students, against non-Jewish students, these are despicable. They need to be taken seriously, and they need to be dealt with. But we need to be sure that all disciplining is done after proper investigation and due process. There has been no due process on the Columbia campus. There has been no proper investigation. The Columbia University president spoke to the University Senate and laid out her plans. And the Senate disagreed unanimously, and still she went ahead. In the past, the response to differences on the Columbia campus have been negotiations. She has not resorted — she has not even talked about negotiations.
AMY GOODMAN: And finally, do you plan to go back to give a speech? And your final comments on the lockdown right now, all in-person classes canceled, online classes only, Professor Mamdani?
MAHMOOD MAMDANI: There is a 12:00 meeting of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences in law library. I will attend that meeting. And then there is a 2 p.m. gathering of faculty on the steps of law library, and I will also be attending that gathering.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we thank you so much for being with us. Mahmood Mamdani is a professor of government in the anthropology department at Columbia University who’s addressed the students participating in the Gaza Solidarity Encampment on Columbia’s campus several times last week.
***
“Collective Punishment”: As Gaza Assault Continues, Israel Ramps Up Violence in Occupied West Bank
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 22, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/ ... transcript
As the death toll in Gaza tops 34,000 Palestinians killed since October 7, Israeli forces and settlers have continued to ramp up violence in the occupied West Bank. The army killed at least 14 people during a two-day raid on the Nur Shams refugee camp near the city of Tulkarm over the weekend, and separately killed a Palestinian ambulance driver near Nablus as he was trying to reach Palestinians injured in an attack by Jewish settlers. Ramallah-based writer Mariam Barghouti says the Israeli military and armed settlers “are trying to continue the illegal annexation of lands in the West Bank” and says Israel is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, just as in Gaza, to make life unbearable. She also responds to reports that the Biden administration is preparing to sanction the Netzah Yehuda battalion, a notorious unit within the Israeli military composed of ultra-Orthodox soldiers that is accused of carrying out human rights violations against Palestinians in the West Bank. “It should not be against a select few. This entire regime is engaging in crimes against humanity, and it is U.S.-sponsored. It is being paid for by American tax dollars.”
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
We turn now to the occupied West Bank, where Palestinians staged a general strike Sunday after Israeli forces killed at least 14 people during a raid that lasted more than 50 hours on the Nur Shams refugee camp near the city of Tulkarm. The residents of Nur Shams said the Israeli siege left the refugee camp uninhabitable.
AHMAD AL-AZZEH: [translated] Seeing it is not like hearing about it. You can see with your eyes what happened: destruction, Gaza number two. What happened is that they left no trees, nor people, nor stones. It is unbearable, uninhabitable by humans. What happened is destruction. Destruction. They turned the camp into something uninhabitable. It is terrible.
AMY GOODMAN: In a separate attack, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society reports Israeli settlers shot dead a Palestinian ambulance driver south of Nablus as he was trying to reach Palestinians injured during a raid by Jewish settlers.
For more, we go to Ramallah, to Mariam Barghouti, Palestinian writer and journalist. Her recent op-ed for Al Jazeera is headlined “Palestinians and the world must not lose hope.”
Mariam, welcome back to Democracy Now! If you can explain what happened over the weekend, not only — just in the occupied West Bank overall?
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: Thanks for having me back, Amy.
So, what we have seen in the West Bank, across the weekend and in general and in this month, is an intensification and escalation by the Israeli military, as well as armed Israeli settlers, that are trying to continue the illegal annexation of lands in the West Bank. The concentration of these attacks, as we have seen earlier, have been in Tulkarm and Jenin, which is north of the West Bank. And that is because there is few youth groups that are engaging in armed confrontation. But as you have seen, the Israeli military, just as it is conducting in Gaza, is trying to focus on the attack of the civilian infrastructure. It is making any life for Palestinians unbearable, and it is using excessive violence and slaughter to do so. So, what we are seeing is a disregard for Palestinian lives. And we are seeing it happen in the most brutal and savage ways, that I don’t think any of us really could have imagined.
And over the weekend, Palestinians went on a strike, yesterday, in mourning of 14 Palestinians killed in one of the longest siege being conducted by the Israeli military on Nur Shams refugee camp. This is an attack on Palestinians that were already displaced from their homes in 1948 only to have the same army come back and attack the generations that came afterwards that chose to fight for life. Fourteen were killed, and of those, two were children, which is on brand for Israel. A fifth of all Palestinians killed in the West Bank were children, as we have seen in Gaza, where nearly half of all Palestinians killed are children and minors.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the significance of Nur Shams, the refugee camp there in Tulkarm?
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: The significance of Tulkarm and Nur Shams is like the significance of Jenin refugee camp, is like the significance of the Old City in Nablus, in that it allows for youth who have refused to be silenced, who have witnessed the brutality engaged against them, from arrests under administrative detention by the Israeli military to the continuation of Israeli settler attacks. So, you have the Nur Shams Brigade, and you have the Jenin Brigade, which is youth with very humble weapons, that are no match — no match — for Israel’s nuclear army, who have chosen to confront the Israeli military.
And we need to keep in mind that the Israeli military went and engaged in an offensive, in an attack on the refugee camp, and these youth engaged in confrontation to try and protect the refugee camp from the destruction. And what Israel did is go ahead and greenlight an attack on the civilian infrastructure in order to punish Palestinians in a punitive and collective measure, which, again, is part of Israel’s policy in order to ensure the pushing out of Palestinians, in order to ensure the erasure of Palestinian existence and to create the space to replace them by Israeli settlers.
AMY GOODMAN: Mariam, the Biden administration is reportedly preparing to issue sanctions on Netzah Yehuda, an ultra-Orthodox Israeli military unit accused of committing human rights abuses against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank. Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, has vowed to fight any sanctions on the battalion. The Guardian reports soldiers from the unit were accused in the death last year of Omar Assad, a 78-year-old U.S. citizen who died of a heart attack after being detained, bound, gagged, then abandoned by members of the unit. Can you tell us more about them?
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: I mean, I think, in this regard, it’s really fruitless to give more attention to the Biden administration’s symbolic gestures, that are very hollow. Likewise, Benjamin Netanyahu is corrupt, known for corruption, has engaged in crimes against humanity. These sanctions mean nothing in light of the billions of dollars that the U.S. Congress just approved for Israel in support, again, for this military that is conducting crimes against humanity.
And in regards to sanctions in order to preserve citizenship rights — right? — the dual citizen, let’s go back to Shireen Abu Akleh, who was a journalist, was wearing a press vest that had the press insignia on it, and still was shot and killed on May 11th, 2022, by the Israeli military. And until now, no accountability was held — none — for Shireen Abu Akleh, who was press, who was a dual citizen with the United States and Palestinian. So, the Biden administration is really trying to scurry, using these words like “sanctions,” while putting amendments of it’s against a select few. It should not be against a select few. This entire regime is engaging in crimes against humanity, and it is U.S.-sponsored. It is being paid for by American tax dollars. And the U.S. is also sending soldiers on the ground to engage in these crimes. So I think these are just hollow.
AMY GOODMAN: I also wanted to get your response to the breaking news that Israel’s chief of military intelligence has resigned. Major General Aharon Haliva is the first senior Israeli official to resign over Hamas’s October 7th attack on Israel. In a statement, he said his office, quote, “did not live up to the task we were entrusted with.” Many see this as a direct hit on Benjamin Netanyahu, calling for him to resign, as well.
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: I think Haliva’s resignation again is telling of how the Israeli security institution is failing. It has constantly tried to showcase to the world that it is an institution that provides national security, when it is an institution that perpetuates crimes of persecution and apartheid. And what is happening now is his resignation is an attempt to evade future accountability as a commander or as a senior position in this institution of repression and abuse. So, again, what I see as an evasion of accountability for what is to come, because Israel is committing and engaging in crimes of genocide, in not just Gaza but in the West Bank and as well as against Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, where the Israeli police shot and killed four Palestinians with Israeli citizenship so far.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Mariam Barghouti, I wanted to ask you about the attack on journalists. You mentioned Shireen Abu Akleh, who was killed May 11th, 2022 — May 11th, 2022 or ’23, was it?
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: ’22.
AMY GOODMAN: '23, 2023 [sic]. The memorial — 2022. But I wanted to ask you about the other journalists. I mean, it's about 100 Palestinian journalists who have been killed since October 7th.
MARIAM BARGHOUTI: Thank you for asking that, Amy. The numbers are actually higher than that. It’s closer to 135 Palestinian media personnel being attacked and killed since October 7th by the Israeli military. And this is really important, because what Israel is doing is targeting journalists. It is not accidental. It is a strategic attack with precision in order to attempt and control the narrative of what is happening on the ground. And, you know, as Palestinian journalists, there’s not a lot, right? There’s few media personnel. So, this attack is very dangerous, because the more and more we’re risking our lives, the more and more we’re getting killed, with the impunity being provided to Israel, then more and more it is able to try and control the narrative and dub its attack and its attempt at erasing Palestinians as self-defense, when it is de facto the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of a population under the pretext of defense.
AMY GOODMAN: Mariam Barghouti, I want to thank you for being with us, Palestinian journalist in the occupied West Bank, in Ramallah. We’ll link to your piece at Al Jazeera, “Palestinians and the world must not lose hope.”
***
“Enormous Expansion of the Law”: James Bamford on FISA Extension, U.S.-Israel Data Sharing
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow!
April 22, 2024
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/ ... transcript
President Biden has signed legislation to reauthorize Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act despite years of protest from rights groups and privacy experts who say the law is routinely used to conduct warrantless surveillance on millions of American citizens. The Senate approved the FISA bill on Friday in a 60-34 vote, and critics say it not only reauthorizes domestic spying but also dramatically expands its scope. “It’s an enormous amount of data that they’re collecting and very few rules” limiting its collection, says investigative journalist James Bamford. He warns that personal information collected by U.S. intelligence is also shared with Israel, which uses the data to target people in Gaza. “The U.S. has got to stop supplying all this data and the targeting materials,” he says. Bamford’s new article for The Nation is headlined “The NSA Wants Carte Blanche for Warrantless Surveillance.”
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.
President Biden signed legislation to reauthorize Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, known as FISA, despite warnings from privacy experts the bill could greatly expand the ability of the government to conduct warrantless domestic surveillance. The Senate approved the FISA bill Friday in a 60-to-34 vote. Critics included Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, who described the bill as, quote, “one of the most dramatic and terrifying expansions of government surveillance authority in history.”
SEN. RON WYDEN: If you have access to any communications, the government can force you to help it spy. That means anybody with access to a server, a wire, a cable box, a Wi-Fi router, a phone or a computer. … If this provision is enacted, the government can deputize any of these people against their will and force them, in effect, to become what amounts to an agent for Big Brother.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we’re joined by James Bamford, longtime investigative journalist, who writes about this in his new piece for The Nation headlined “The NSA Wants Carte Blanche for Warrantless Surveillance.” In 1982, Jim Bamford published The Puzzle Palace, the first book exposing the inner workings of the NSA, much larger than the CIA.
Jim Bamford, thanks so much for being with us again. Explain what this FISA law now allows.
JAMES BAMFORD: Thanks, Amy.
Well, it’s an enormous expansion of the law. It started out fairly modestly, and now it’s expanded enormously. Few people understand how much data really is collected. The NSA has this enormous facility out in Utah, a data center. It’s five times the size of the U.S. Capitol. And it holds up to a zettabyte or a yottabyte. That’s the highest numbers there are in terms of storage of data, enormous amounts of data. And that’s what is going to happen now, is the expansion of the law, the expansion of the collection of data. And a lot of that data will be American, Americans who have no idea they’re being eavesdropped on, because they’re going to become repositories in that data center.
The way the law works right now is that if you want to eavesdrop on an American in the United States, then you need a warrant. However, if you’re calling somebody outside of the United States, another person outside the United States who’s not an American citizen, then you have really no rights. They can eavesdrop on that conversation as much as possible. They can collect all those conversations and store them in the Utah data center. And then the FBI will then have the opportunity to go in there and search for whatever they want without a warrant. So, they could get your email address or your name on Facebook or whatever they — whatever identifying information they can, and then search that database to see what communications you have had outside the United States. So, it’s an enormous amount of data that they’re collecting and very few rules in terms of warrant requirements to obtain that data.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the parallels you see between the illegal eavesdropping from the Watergate scandal of the '70s then and the warrantless surveillance permitted under Section 702 that's just been signed off on so it wouldn’t lapse?
JAMES BAMFORD: Well, after Watergate, there was a focus on eavesdropping. But again, that was a very long time ago, and that was when most people communicated on telephones. And there was no data collection. There was no email. So it was microscopic compared to what there is today.
The way it works is the NSA has satellites all over outside the Earth collecting satellite data from digital receivers, from communications devices, from iPhones and so forth. They have taps on undersea cables that come ashore. It’s called cable heads. And they have facilities there to pick up the data. All that data funnels into both NSA in Maryland and also in Utah. So there’s an enormous collection of data that I don’t think people have really a real concept of how much the NSA collects. It’s just enormous compared to what it was in the days of Watergate.
AMY GOODMAN: Jim Bamford, I wanted to ask you about another new piece you’ve written for The Nation, headlined “How US Intelligence and an American Company Feed Israel’s Killing Machine in Gaza.” Earlier this month, we spoke to Israeli investigative journalist Yuval Abraham, who first reported this story for +972 and Local Call headlined “'Lavender': The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza.” I asked him to describe the program.
YUVAL ABRAHAM: After October 7th, the military basically made a decision that all of these tens of thousands of people are now people that could potentially be bombed inside their houses, meaning not only killing them but everybody who’s in the building — the children, the families. And they understood that in order to try to attempt to do that, they are going to have to rely on this AI machine called Lavender with very minimal human supervision.
AMY GOODMAN: So, if you can talk about this, Jim Bamford, and also talk about Palantir and what it is?
JAMES BAMFORD: Israel has an equivalent of the NSA. It’s called Unit 8200. They’re very sophisticated. It’s basically the same type of organization as the NSA. And Palantir is one of the companies that’s given — it’s an American company that’s based in Denver, and it has given an enormous amount of assistance to Unit 8200 in terms of targeting. And that goes to the military. So, the military targets civilians, lots of civilians. Most of the people killed were civilians. Women and children have been the people who have been targeted in the Occupied Territories, in Gaza. So, the NSA gives Unit 8200 an enormous amount of data from what it collects. When I interviewed Ed Snowden back in Moscow after he went to Moscow, taking all the data from NSA, he said that was one of the worst offenses he saw when he was at NSA, that they were giving all this American data, Palestinians talking overseas to relatives or friends in Palestine and the occupied territory, and NSA was giving that data to Unit 8200.
So, you have Unit 8200 that’s collecting a lot of data from the United States, from Americans. They’re using it for targeting. And Palantir is one of the companies that’s enormously sophisticated in terms of targeting. So, what the problem is here is that you’re getting information from the United States that the Israelis are using to target the civilians in Gaza. And there’s been 33,000 killed now, so it’s just an enormous problem that the U.S. has got to stop supplying all this data and the targeting materials to Gaza — or, rather, to the Israelis to target Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: Jim Bamford, we’d like to do Part 2 of this discussion and post this online at democracynow.org. James Bamford is a longtime investigative journalist. We’ll link to your pieces for The Nation magazine, one called “The NSA Wants Carte Blanche for Warrantless Surveillance,” and the other, “How US Intelligence and an American Company Feed Israel’s Killing Machine in Gaza.”