An historical step towards ending Israel's impunity ! FRANCESCA ALBANESE reacts to ICC decision.
by Frank Barat
Nov 22, 2024
In this conversation, Frank Barat and Francesca Albanese discuss the recent arrest warrants issued by the International Criminal Court (ICC) against Israeli leaders, including Benjamin Netanyahu. They explore the implications of these warrants for international law, the reactions from various states, and the broader context of accountability for war crimes and genocide in Palestine. Albanese emphasises the historical significance of the ICC's decision and the ongoing challenges faced by Palestinians, while also addressing the responsibilities of member states in enforcing these warrants.
Audio podcast here: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show...
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Context of the ICC Arrest Warrants
02:05 Significance of the ICC's Decision
04:45 Legal Obligations of Member States
06:57 Potential for Broader Accountability
10:59 Implications of Ongoing Violence
17:42 Understanding Genocide as Colonial Erasure
Transcript
Introduction and Context of the ICC Arrest Warrants
0:01
hi Franchesca hi
0:04
Frank um it's it's really great to to
0:06
have you on today I know how busy you
0:08
are so it's much much
0:11
appreciated thank you thank you very
0:13
much it's always a pleasure to be with
0:15
you I I wanted to talk to you obviously
0:18
about the international criminal court
0:21
coming back after months and months with
0:24
ARs warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu
0:29
yav galand
0:30
and Muhammad de um Hamas leader Israel
0:35
said you they killed Muhammad de in
0:38
August so we're not sure if he's alive
0:40
or not but obviously I'm going to focus
0:42
more about what it means in regards to
0:44
Netanyahu and Gallant I'll give a brief
0:47
background so on May 21st Karim K the
0:51
pro prosecutor of the international
0:53
criminal court asked the court to issue
0:56
arrest warrants against Netanyahu Galant
0:58
Han Di and sinir Han was assassinated in
1:02
Iran sinir died in Gaza recently and
1:06
again we're not sure if Dave is is alive
1:09
or not following Karim can um you know
1:14
demand in may we know the court and some
1:18
judges were put under huge pressure by
1:20
various actors actually one of the judge
1:24
the Romanian judge had to leave the
1:25
court this is very unusual then in
1:28
August Kim Khan asked the court for an
1:30
Urgent Response to his request because
1:33
between May and August we didn't hear
1:34
anything from the court and then finally
1:37
yesterday and to be honest I didn't
1:40
expect this anymore I was like this is
1:41
over I'm not sure what's going to happen
1:43
with the IC you know international law
1:45
is dead International Justice is dead
1:47
but yesterday for me out of the blue we
1:50
get the news the IC comes back with the
1:53
RS warrants against Natan gallant and
1:56
Dave how did you react to the news and
2:01
why is it important in your opinion yeah
Significance of the ICC's Decision
2:05
I have to say that I I share your
2:08
feelings I mean like many I've been
2:11
disheartened by the delay uh because
2:16
uh Israel has consistently evaded
2:20
accountability for decades and the
2:23
pressure that has been excerted on the
2:26
international justice system and
2:28
particularly the uh ICC has led many
2:32
including myself to think that this
2:36
yesterday decision would never see the
2:40
uh the light of the day so I reacted
2:43
yeah with a moment of I I felt elated
2:47
there was a moment
2:49
of yeah Joy satisfaction thinking of
2:52
what accountability means although the
2:55
problems on the ground are many and I
2:58
don't think that this step in particular
3:02
in particular although necessary is
3:04
going to make the life of the
3:06
Palestinians in Gaza any better in the
3:08
in the in the immediate short term I
3:11
mean in the last 24 hours the the
3:14
attacks on the population of
3:16
Gaza have intensified but the this
3:20
decision represents an historical and
3:23
overdue step toward dismantling the
3:25
decades long impunity enjoyed by by
3:29
Israel and it's a I mean it's a moment
3:32
that signals a pivotal turning point in
3:35
the global pursuit of Justice holding
3:37
Israel leaders accountable and also the
3:41
state apparatus that has allowed Decades
3:44
of impunity and including what I for me
3:47
it's without the without any doubt a
3:50
genocide so it is the opportunity to H
3:53
to hold that status apparatus
3:55
accountable for orchestrating and perpet
3:58
perpetuating
4:00
the gravest international
4:04
crimes so so what happens what happens
4:07
now you know as you know following a
4:09
year of genocide with very little um you
4:12
know um action you know to con to
4:15
actually condemn Israel uh I mean
4:18
condemning Israel has happened but very
4:19
little concrete action to stop the
4:21
genocide a lot of people including
4:23
myself I've lost trust in international
4:26
Justice and international law
4:28
international Humanity militarian law
4:31
but um it's different with the IC right
4:34
it's it's a binding decision what does
4:36
it mean now for the
4:38
124 states that are signatory to the ICC
4:42
and the Rome statute do they have a
4:44
binding obligation to act yes well let
Legal Obligations of Member States
4:47
me say that when we talk
4:49
about uh the right of self-determination
4:52
of the Palestinians that has been
4:53
crucially reaffirmed by the
4:55
international court of justice this year
4:57
ordering the immediate I mean as rapidly
5:00
as possible uh the dismantlement of the
5:02
occupation the dismantlement of the
5:05
military apparatus in the West Bank the
5:07
Gaza Strip and Jerusalem the
5:09
dismantlement of the settlements the end
5:11
of the uh control of Israel Over
5:14
Palestinian national sorry natural
5:18
resources um this is all binding because
5:20
it's premised upon uh erga omness
5:23
obligations of member states so there is
5:25
a critical element of law of State
5:28
responsibility uh that has been violated
5:30
but also the provisional measures
5:32
ordered by the international court of
5:34
justice this year in the genocide case
5:37
initiated by South Africa they are
5:39
binding so but you're right these adds
5:42
something more because it uh imposes an
5:47
obligation on all member states party to
5:51
the Rome statute to
5:54
arrest uh the the the the IND indicted
5:58
uh the the identified
6:00
um responsible so the two Israeli
6:04
leaders and one Hamas leader this is a
6:07
crucial step toward ending Decades of
6:09
suffering and ensuring the
6:10
accountability particularly this is a
6:13
test for the Western world because I I
6:16
would disagree with you it's not that
6:18
all member states have done very little
6:21
member states in the global South have
6:23
done more than any anyone else including
6:27
incl I mean particularly South Africa
6:29
but this is a test for the Western World
6:32
particularly the the states parties to
6:35
the Rome status state to demonstrate
6:37
their commitment to International
6:40
Justice uh to international law and here
6:43
as I've often said the system is at a
6:46
Breaking Point either it is strengthened
6:49
by accountability and respect for
6:51
fundamental principles of international
6:53
law or it will
Potential for Broader Accountability
6:57
break so in concrete terms let's say um
7:01
if Netanyahu or Galant or Mohammed Dave
7:05
um travels tomorrow to
7:07
Spain what are the Spanish
7:10
authorities obligated to do yes uh to
7:16
arrest to arrest them to arrest them and
7:19
make sure they are transferred to the he
7:22
so for the trial to start so look the
7:26
laws the international laws that have
7:28
been uh uh breached are very clear and
7:32
the evidence of crimes and violations is
7:36
overwhelming beyond what has been used
7:40
relied upon within the realm and the
7:43
confines of the current investigation
7:45
initiated by the the office of the
7:48
prosecutor but we know that the IC has
7:51
no power power to enforce the arrest
7:54
warrants on its own so the power rests
7:57
with the governments of the world so yes
8:00
there is an obligation to arrest and
8:03
it's very interesting the reaction that
8:05
has been registered by member states
8:08
it's a clear black and white there are
8:10
member states who have who have uh said
8:14
that they would they would comply with
8:16
the ICC uh with the ICC arrest warrants
8:21
which is totally obvious to me there are
8:23
member states who have uh who
8:28
have like
8:30
really asserted unable
8:33
unable um that who have made untenable
8:37
arguments um accusing the court of being
8:40
anti-semitic accusing the court of
8:42
having made a comparison between Israeli
8:46
leaders and terrorists so again these
8:48
denotes the immense bias that rests with
8:52
this with this countries but again I
8:54
want to stress that governments are
8:56
morally and legally obliged to to ensure
9:00
that um war criminals do not go
9:02
unpunished and let me say there is
9:04
another there is a flip side of it what
9:07
the international criminal court does is
9:10
operating delivering Justice over
9:12
International crimes on the basis of
9:14
complimentarity this doesn't absolve
9:17
member states from their uh
9:19
responsibility to investigate and
9:22
prosecute International crimes uh
9:25
including the crime of genocide there
9:28
therefore I do expect that member states
9:31
initiate their own investigations over
9:34
war crimes crimes against humanity and
9:36
the crime of including the crime of
9:38
apartheid and the crime of genocide that
9:41
has been committed that have been
9:42
committed in the occupied Palestinian
9:45
territory and there is an even more
9:47
stringent responsibility because a
9:50
number of um people allegedly
9:54
responsible apparently involved in these
9:57
crimes have double nationalities a
9:59
number of them have nationality from the
10:02
UK France Belgium Italy even Arab
10:06
countries I discovered Australia Canada
10:09
the US so it's an even greater
10:12
responsibility that these states have
10:15
toward Justice ensuring that their
10:18
citizens have are are brought to Justice
10:21
if they have committed uh or they are
10:23
suspected of having committed
10:26
crimes I I wanted to ask you about this
10:28
actually um is it the beginning of the
10:31
inway investigation or or the end what I
10:35
mean by that is could the IC now come
10:39
with more arrest warrants for example I
10:41
mean your recent report um genocide as
10:45
Colonial eraser focused a lot as well
10:48
about on what's happening in the West
10:49
Bank so could the IC come back with
10:52
arrest warrants for settlers and for
10:55
others or for other sort of senior
10:58
officials yeah I I think that there is
Implications of Ongoing Violence
11:00
no doubt that this is the beginning of
11:03
uh a potentially much broader uh
11:07
accountability process for a number of
11:09
reasons first of all because this is
11:11
what the office of the prosecutor and
11:13
through the prosecutor himself uh
11:17
declared months ago when the arrest
11:20
warrants were
11:21
demanded um and um and this leaves a
11:25
room to further arrest warrants but also
11:29
further crimes I was um initially not
11:33
disappointed but surprised by the narrow
11:36
scope of the investigation initiated by
11:40
the office of the prosecutor because he
11:43
has only looked at what has happened in
11:46
the occupied Palestinian territory Gaza
11:48
in particular um after October 7 but
11:52
what about what has happened before
11:54
which amounts
11:56
to war crimes and crimes against
11:58
humanity so these for sure it should be
12:01
broaden but also I think there there are
12:03
questions about the the crimes that um
12:07
the current arrest warrants have been
12:10
issued for because there is the uh the
12:13
crime of starvation of civilians as a
12:17
method of warfare um and as a war crime
12:21
the crime of extermination has not been
12:25
uh has not been identified doesn't
12:28
appear in the arrest warrants so does it
12:32
mean that the court is not looking into
12:35
a into extermination as someone has uh
12:38
has claimed I don't think so because my
12:41
understanding is that the office of the
12:44
prosecutor linked extermination
12:46
primarily to starvation and the lack of
12:48
humanitarian aid but in fact in my view
12:51
and there the evidence of the
12:54
extermination is still limited because
12:56
back then within the cutting date of the
12:59
investigation uh which is May this year
13:02
uh only 40 only 46 people had been
13:06
reported uh having died because of
13:08
starvation but there is extermination
13:11
and the numbers are shocking we are
13:14
talking of almost
13:16
45,000 people are certained uh killed
13:20
primarily by bombing a sniper fire
13:23
including 177,000 children so the the
13:26
crime of Investigation is still uh to be
13:29
investigated and prosecuted Again by
13:32
connect connected to another sort of
13:35
evidence not linked to starvation per
13:38
se and I've read the the press release
13:41
that the court issued um yesterday Court
13:44
said that um they have really strong you
13:48
know they strongly believe that these
13:49
crimes are continuing right now and also
13:53
I think they've mentioned something very
13:54
important they've mentioned the
13:56
intentional targeting of the civilian
13:59
population because we've heard over and
14:01
over and over again from the Israeli
14:03
press office from the Israeli Prime
14:05
Minister from the US from the lot of
14:08
people in the mainstream media yes a lot
14:11
of civilians have died but poor them
14:13
it's collateral damage but now the court
14:15
is saying it's
14:17
intentional this is something very
14:19
serious right absolutely there are so
14:22
many elements that I was surprised to
14:25
see in the arrest warrants and I would
14:28
like to return part particularly to uh
14:31
to a couple of them uh but definitely
14:34
the there is a without saying that there
14:38
is a the the the acknowledgment of what
14:44
I have denounced like um as humanitarian
14:47
camouflage the fact that Israel uh has
14:50
used concept of international
14:53
humanitarian law which if observed would
14:57
have prevented the
14:59
these numbers of people killed for
15:02
example Israel has has not denied the
15:06
the the the numbers of people killed
15:08
yeah we might have complained at times
15:11
that they were inflated but because now
15:14
they have beened and verified with
15:17
identity um name family name identity
15:20
numbers associated with them it's it's
15:23
it cannot be denied however Israel has
15:25
Justified this killings as saying
15:28
blaming Hamas saying that Hamas was
15:31
hiding uh and using the
15:34
population of Gaza as human Shields this
15:37
has not been proved I'm not saying that
15:39
this didn't happen but then not only
15:41
there is no evidence that Hamas has not
15:43
used Palestinians as human Shields as a
15:46
method of War there is evidence that
15:48
Israel has used Palestinians as human
15:51
Shields also um we cannot interpret
15:55
international law does not allowed to
15:58
interpret Shield as a blanket argument
16:01
to obscure the fact the fact that Urban
16:04
Gua
16:06
um
16:07
Warfare implies the moving of um
16:11
combatants in uh in a he in a heavily
16:14
populated areas which implies more
16:16
precautions to be taken by the
16:19
belligerant parties another element is
16:21
collateral damage this is a an affront
16:25
to the meaning the pure meaning of
16:27
principles of distinct iction precaution
16:30
proportionality in the military conduct
16:33
and also the way Israel has used the
16:35
concept of evacuation zones sorry
16:38
evacuation orders and safe zones we know
16:41
that evacuation orders are that have
16:43
been issued are not in compliance with
16:46
international law because it they have
16:48
failed the principle of Distinction and
16:50
the principle of military necessity but
16:52
also what were the precautions taken how
16:54
the safety of the forcibly displaced
16:57
Palestinians not evacuated from possibly
16:59
displac Palestinians were met where were
17:01
the the shelters where was the
17:04
humanitarian Aid the food the Medical
17:06
Aid afforded to these people and Al also
17:10
the the safe zones have been bombed
17:13
there are people who have been burned
17:14
alive intense so look it's it's
17:17
untenable and I'm so glad the court
17:19
picked on this the first question is are
17:22
you worried that Israel will actually
17:23
react even more feroc you know
17:26
ferociously in in Gaza and the second
17:29
part is why did you think it was
17:31
important to write this report genocide
17:33
as Colonial eraser so first of all this
17:36
is the second report I write on the
17:38
topic of genocide h a report that I it
Understanding Genocide as Colonial Erasure
17:42
was clearly not in my mind as I started
17:47
and as I travel through the first year
17:49
and a half of my mandate as a special
17:52
report so when I uh wrote anatomy of a
17:57
genocide uh highlighting that there were
18:00
uh reasonable grounds to believe that
18:02
Israel had committed acts of genocide
18:04
and had used international humanitarian
18:06
law in fact as a camouflage uh for its
18:09
crimes and its its conduct um I thought
18:14
that this would contribute on the one
18:16
hand to the work of the of the Court
18:18
which somewhat it did somewhat it did
18:21
because the the South African legal team
18:23
has used some of the argument I made but
18:25
also I would have expected a greater
18:27
response uh uh from member states
18:30
greater pressure particularly because
18:31
there is an obligation that the court
18:33
has mentioned for member states not to
18:37
transfer weapons to a state that might
18:39
be committing atrocities and this was uh
18:42
uh established in the Nicaragua versus
18:46
Germany case
Francesca Albanese: so after the release of my
18:50
report in fact anatomy of genocide I've
18:52
noticed and this is an this links to the
18:55
first question you were asking I've
18:57
noticed that at
18:59
legal development at the international
19:01
Justice level there has been a sort
19:05
of apparent
19:07
Vengeance uh against the Gaza Strip
19:11
certain massacres have occurred in the
19:13
immediate after math of the of the icj
19:18
provisional measures or uh the ICC
19:21
arrest warrants and same yesterday as I
19:24
said I I still need to go through the
19:26
entire evidence that comes out out of
19:29
that but in the past 24 hours I have
19:31
received notice of nine massacres that
19:34
have been carried out so I'm really
19:36
scared of the impact that this important
19:39
development might have on the people of
19:41
Gaza but going to my my report why did I
19:44
write a second report because genocide
19:47
was continuing and genocide was
19:49
continuing as a as as part of a of a
19:53
long trajectory over Erasure of the
19:55
Palestinian people especially in the
19:57
past six months the elements of
20:00
Vengeance and the rasure have
20:02
intensified for example the discourse of
20:05
pal the discourse of Israeli leaders
20:08
wanting to resettle Gaza starting from
20:12
the northern uh Gaza uh which is matched
20:16
by the evidence on the ground and the
20:18
recent statements of the military that
20:20
they will not allow the population uh
20:23
forcibly displaced from northern Gaza to
20:25
return the fact that the settlers have
20:28
visited several times Northern Gaza and
20:30
even made plans to how to rebuild the
20:33
settlements The Continuous call for
20:36
forceable transfer and ethnic cleansing
20:39
of the entire occupied Palestinian
20:41
territory The Continuous land grab in
20:44
the West Bank so I took a step back from
20:47
all these and I said what is the plan
20:50
here because the genocidal intent is
20:53
pretty clear but it needs to be
20:55
understood Beyond any reasonable ground
20:58
and this is why I refer to Greater
21:00
Israel greater Israel has been pursued
21:04
since the very foundation of the state
21:06
of Israel and since the very beginning
21:08
of the occupation of what remained of
21:11
historical Palestine I understand that
21:14
there was opposition to this within
21:15
Israel among many including many in the
21:18
military system nonetheless the facts on
21:21
the ground reveal that this plan has
21:24
continued today 60% of the Gaza Strip is
21:28
completely under Israel's control the
21:30
this Jerusalem is completely annexed
21:33
which is a crime and Gaza is happening
21:36
so I think that in line with what has
21:39
happened in other uh cases um genocide
21:44
is a especially settler Colonial
21:47
genocides this genocide has happened as
21:49
a as a means to an end as a means to
21:53
advance Israel's settler Colonial plan
21:56
and so the intent is clear and shouldn't
21:59
be confused with the motives Frank I
22:01
mean I know that Israeli leaders have
22:03
said we are here to eradicate AAS
22:06
whatever it means we are here to um
22:09
Liberate the hostages and simply defeat
22:11
a mass this is not matched by the
22:13
reality on the ground and this might be
22:15
motives but it it doesn't nothing of
22:17
this um disprove the main intent meaning
22:22
the determination of Erasure and
22:24
Destructor which has been said
22:26
predicated and enacted upon so it's a
22:30
it's a long it's the it's a escalation
22:32
of a steady violence against the
22:35
Palestinians which has been over
22:38
especially 57 years of occupation Fast
22:40
Pace low Pace at different times of
22:43
history but again we cannot miss the
22:46
forest for the
22:50
trees thank you
22:52
Francesca um you know gra for for you
22:56
know it's it's was very important to um
22:59
to highlight you know the you know way
23:02
what's happening at the IC but I think
23:04
it's crucial as You' just said you know
23:07
and did to put it in you know to put it
23:10
Israel's action in the broader context
23:13
um of the anyway of the great Israel
23:15
project so um so again thank you uh
23:19
thank you Franchesca thank you very much
23:21
Frank