Watergate Prosecutor: Trump ‘Up To His Eyeballs In Criminality’
by Katie Phang
Jun 30, 2022
The January 6th Committee held a special last minute hearing this past week containing bombshell testimony from former aide to Mark Meadows Cassidy Hutchinson. Watergate prosecutor Nick Akerman joins Katie Phang to discuss. »
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>>> WE ARE STILL PROCESSING
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TODAY'S EXPLOSIVE -- EXCUSE ME,
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TUESDAY'S EXPLOSIVE JANUARY 6th
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HEARING WITH CASSIDY HUTCHINSON,
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A FORMER TOP AIDE TO TRUMP CHIEF
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OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS.
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AND AMID ALL THE NEW
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REVELATIONS, THERE IS ONE KEY
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THREAD THAT THE COMMITTEE LAID
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OUT THAT MADE THIS THE MOST
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IMPORTANT HEARING YET.
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IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS, THE
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COMMITTEE HAS DETAILED THAT
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TRUMP'S ONLY PEOPLE EXPLAINED TO
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HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT THE
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2020 ELECTION WAS NOT STOLEN.
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AND YET STILL HE PUSHED HIS
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CONSPIRACIES IN ORDER TO
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PRESSURE STATE OFFICIALS TO
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OVERTURN THEIR RESULTS.
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ON TUESDAY, WHAT CASSIDY
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HUTCHINSON POINTED TO IN HER
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TESTIMONY IS THAT WHEN TRUMP'S
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SCHEMES BEGAN TO FALL APART,
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TRUMP AND HIS INNER CIRCLE SET
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THEIR SIGHTS ON JANUARY 6th.
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>> AS MR. GIULIANI AND I WHERE
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WALKING TO OUR VEHICLES THAT
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EVENING HE LOOKED AT ME AND SAID
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SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF,
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CASS, ARE YOU EXCITED, THE 6th
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IS GOING TO BE A GREAT DAY,
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WE'RE GOING TO THE CAPITOL, IT'S
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GOING TO BE GREAT, THE PRESIDENT
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IS GOING TO BE THERE, HE'S GOING
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TO LOOK POWERFUL, HE'S GOING TO
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BE WITH THE MEMBERS, GOING TO BE
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WITH THE SENATORS.
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TALK TO THE CHIEF ABOUT IT, HE
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KNOWS ABOUT IT.
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HE REMEMBER HIM LEANING AGAINST
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THE DOORWAY AND SAYING, I HAD AN
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INTERESTING CONVERSATION WITH
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RUDY, MARK, IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE
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GOING TO GO TO THE CAPITOL.
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HE DIDN'T LOOK UP FROM HIS PHONE
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AND SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT
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OF, THERE'S A LOT GOING ON,
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CASS, BUT I DON'T KNOW, THINGS
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MIGHT GET REAL, REAL BAD ON
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JANUARY 6th.
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>> VIDEO AND AUDIO RELEASED BY
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THE COMMITTEE SHOW THAT ON THE
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MORNING OF JANUARY 6th, THERE
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WERE TRUMP RALLY ATTENDEES THAT
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HAD WEAPONS INCLUDING PISTOLS,
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MAKESHIFT SPEARS AND AR-15s.
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ACCORDING TO MS. HUTCHINSON,
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DONALD TRUMP KNEW THEY WERE
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ARMED AND WANTED THEM TO MARCH
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ON THE CAPITOL ANYWAY.
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>> I OVERHEARD THE PRESIDENT SAY
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SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, I
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DON'T EFFING CARE THAT THEY HAVE
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WEANS, THEY'RE NOT HERE TO
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HURT ME, TAKE THE EFFING MAGS
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AWAY, LET THE PEOPLE IN, TAKE
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THE EFFING MAGS AWAY.
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>> IF MS. HUTCHINSON'S SWORN
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TESTIMONY IS TRUE, HE KNEW WHAT
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THEY HAD COME PREPARED FOR WHEN
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HE TOLD THEM TO FIGHT LIKE HELL.
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THE VIOLENCE ON JANUARY 6th WAS
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NOT A MISTAKE.
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IT WAS THE PLAN.
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NOW WE KNOW THE COMMITTEE IS NOT
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DONE YET.
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FAR FROM IT.
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ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT THEY
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SUBPOENAED FORMER WHITE HOUSE
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COUNSEL PAT CIPOLLONE, A NAME
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THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP
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REPEATEDLY IN THESE HEARINGS AND
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FEATURED PROMINENTLY IN MS.
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HUTCHINSON'S TESTIMONY.
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>> MR. CIPOLLONE SAID SOMETHING
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TO THE EFFECT OF, PLEASE MAKE
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SURE WE DON'T GO UP TO THE
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CAPITOL, CASSIDY, KEEP IN TOUCH
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WITH ME, WE'RE GOING TO GET
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CHARGED WITH EVERY CRIME
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IMAGINABLE IF WE MAKE THAT
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MOVEMENT HAPPEN.
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>> CIPOLLONE'S TESTIMONY COULD
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CORROBORATE AND FILL IN KEY
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DETAILS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S
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ACTIONS LEADING UP TO AND ON
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JANUARY 6th.
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AND IT WOULD ONLY BOLSTER THIS
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THRUST OF THE COMMITTEE'S CASE,
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THAT WHAT WE SAW THAT DAY WAS
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DONALD TRUMP'S DESPERATE,
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VIOLENT, AND POTENTIALLY ILLEGAL
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LAST-DITCH EFFORT TO STAY IN
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POWER.
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JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER
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ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
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AND FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL
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WATERGATE PROSECUTOR NICK
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ACKERMAN.
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NICK, IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO
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SPEND TIME WITH YOU.
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WE'LL GET TO PAT CIPOLLONE IN A
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MINUTE.
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>> SURE.
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>> BUT FIRST I HAVE TO ASK YOU,
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AFTER CASSIDY HUTCHINSON'S
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TESTIMONY, JUST HOW MUCH DEEPER
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DID TRUMP'S LEGAL EXPOSURE GET?
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>> OH, IT'S -- HE'S UP TO HIS
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EYEBALLS IN CRIMINALITY AT THIS
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POINT.
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I MEAN, THIS TOOK HIM OVER THE
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LINE.
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IF EVER THERE WAS A QUESTION
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BEFORE ABOUT HIS INTENT, WHAT HE
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WANTED TO DO, THIS WAS IT.
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I MEAN, WE KNEW THAT AT LEAST A
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FEW DAYS BEFORE JANUARY 6th,
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THAT TRUMP KNEW THAT HIS VICE
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PRESIDENT WAS NOT GOING TO DO
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HIS BIDDING.
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HE KNEW THAT HIS SCHEME TO GET
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PENCE TO BASICALLY IGNORE THE
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ELECTORAL COLLEGE COUNT AND
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DECLARE HIM THE WINNER BY VIRTUE
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OF ALL OF THESE RIGGED ELECTORAL
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COLLEGE VOTES THAT HE PUT OUT
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THERE, THAT WASN'T GOING TO
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HAPPEN.
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PENCE WASN'T GOING TO SEND THE
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ELECTION BACK TO THE STATES.
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AND SO HIS ONLY ALTERNATIVE HERE
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WAS TO CREATE VIOLENCE AND
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MAYHEM AT THE CAPITOL IN ORDER
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TO STOP THAT COUNT AND THEN HOPE
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THE NEXT DAY, BECAUSE CONGRESS
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HAD NOT CERTIFIED THE VOTE, THAT
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HE SOMEHOW COULD SEND THE VOTE
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BACK TO THE BATTLEGROUND STATES.
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THAT WAS HIS PLAN, AND THAT IS
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CLEARLY A VIOLATION OF FEDERAL
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CRIMINAL LAW.
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IT'S A FRAUD ON THE GOVERNMENT.
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AND IT'S ALSO AN EFFORT TO
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BASICALLY OBSTRUCT CONGRESS
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PERFORMING ITS CONSTITUTIONAL
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FUNCTION.
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>> NICK, I WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER
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PART OF CASSIDY HUTCHINSON'S
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TESTIMONY.
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THIS IS A CONVERSATION SHE
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OVERHEARD BETWEEN MARK MEADOWS
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AND PAT CIPOLLONE ON JANUARY
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6th.
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TAKE A LISTEN.
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>> I REMEMBER PAT SAYING
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SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF,
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MARK, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING
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MORE, THEY'RE LITERALLY CALLING
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FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO BE
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EFFING HUNG.
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AND MARK HAD RESPONDED SOMETHING
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TO THE EFFECT OF, YOU HEARD HIM,
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PAT, HE THINKS MIKE DESERVES IT,
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HE DOESN'T THINK THEY'RE DOING
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ANYTHING WRONG, TO WHICH PAT
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SAID SOMETHING, THIS IS EFFING
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CRAZY, WE NEED TO BE DOING
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SOMETHING MORE.
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>> YOU KNOW, NICK, HOW CRUCIAL
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IS A DEPOSITION OR SOME VERSION
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OR FORM OF SWORN TESTIMONY FROM
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PAT CIPOLLONE GOING TO BE FOR
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THIS COMMITTEE?
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I MEAN, THEY OBVIOUSLY ARE GOING
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TO WANT TO ASK HIM ABOUT THAT
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EXCHANGE AND OTHERS THAT WE
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HEARD ABOUT DURING HUTCHINSON'S
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TESTIMONY, RIGHT?
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>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.
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AND YOU REALLY LAID IT OUT ON
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THE MONEY RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING
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OF THIS THING, WHEN YOU SAID
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THAT WHAT PAT CIPOLLONE DOES IS,
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HE CORROBORATES THE TESTIMONY OF
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CASSIDY HUTCHINSON.
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I MEAN, THERE'S NO REASON FOR
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ANYBODY TO DISBELIEVE PAT
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CIPOLLONE.
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HE'S THE LAWYER WHO ACTUALLY
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DEFENDED DONALD TRUMP IN THE
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FIRST IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING.
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HE BASICALLY SHOULD BE ABLE TO
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CONFIRM EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF
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CASSIDY HUTCHINSON'S TESTIMONY.
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AND IF HE DOES, THEN THERE'S
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REALLY NO QUESTION AT THAT
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POINT.
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IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS HAVING A
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TAPE RECORDING.
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THAT'S WHY PAT CIPOLLONE IS SO
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IMPORTANT.
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WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO CASSIDY
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HUTCHINSON IS THE SAME THING
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THAT THE REPUBLICANS DID TO JOHN
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DEAN AFTER HE TESTIFIED IN THE
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WATERGATE COMMITTEE.
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THEY CAME OUT AT HIM,
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QUESTIONING HIS CREDIBILITY, AND
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THEN LO AND BEHOLD, WHAT
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HAPPENS?
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THEY FOUND OUT THERE ARE TAPES
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IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE TAPES
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CORROBORATED JOHN DEAN TO THE
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"T."
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AND I THINK PAT CIPOLLONE IS
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GOING TO DO THE SAME THING HERE,
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ONCE HE COMES IN AND IS
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QUESTIONED UNDER OATH.
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>> NICK, THOUGH, CIPOLLONE SERVE
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AS WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.
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SO OBVIOUSLY HE COULD TRY TO
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CLAIM EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE ON TOP
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OF OTHER TYPES OF PRIVILEGES,
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RIGHT, FOR SOME TOPICS.
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DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE
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A SUCCESSFUL DEFENSE FOR
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CIPOLLONE TO AVOID HAVING TO
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APPEAR BEFORE THE 1/6 COMMITTEE?
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>> IT'S AN ABSURD DEFENSE.
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FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S NO
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ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE.
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PAT CIPOLLONE WAS NOT THE LAWYER
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FOR DONALD TRUMP.
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HE WAS NOT HIS PERSONAL LAWYER.
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HE WAS ONLY HIS LAWYER FOR THE
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OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY.
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THERE IS NO ATTORNEY/CLIENT
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PRIVILEGE HE COULD POSSIBLY
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CLAIM.
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SECONDLY, WITH RESPECT TO
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EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, THE SUPREME
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COURT MADE IT EXTREMELY CLEAR,
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COULDN'T BE ANY CLEARER, 1974,
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U.S. V. NIXON, WHEN YOU HAVE
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CONVERSATIONS IN FURTHERANCE OF
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CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, IF DONALD
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TRUMP IS TALKING ABOUT THINGS
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HE'S GOING TO DO THAT ARE A
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CRIME, THERE IS NO EXECUTIVE
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PRIVILEGE.
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EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE ONLY APPLIES
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FOR MATTERS THAT ARE OF STATE,
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THAT RELATE TO NATIONAL
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SECURITY, NATIONAL DEFENSE.
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THE SUPREME COURT COULDN'T HAVE
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LAID IT OUT ANY CLEARER IN U.S.
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V. NIXON.
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THERE ARE NO PRIVILEGES.
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HE HAS TO TESTIFY.
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>> NICK, YOU AND I HAVE HAD THE
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OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK BEFORE
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ABOUT THE GEORGIA INVESTIGATION.
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IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU AND I
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ARE VERY INTERESTED IN AS MOST
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PEOPLE SHOULD BE.
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I WANT TO BRIEFLY TURN TO THAT
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INVESTIGATION.
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THAT IS DONALD TRUMP'S EFFORTS
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TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION IN
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GEORGIA.
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THINGS CONTINUE TO BE BUILDING
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THERE.
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THE DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER WHO
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FILMED TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY IN
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THE WEEKS AFTER THE ELECTION,
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ALEX HOLDER, HAS BEEN SUBPOENAED
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IT TESTIFY IN THAT SPECIAL GRAND
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JURY BY THE D.A., FANI WILLIS.
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IT LOOKS LIKE THIS INVESTIGATION
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IS LOOKING AT OTHER PEOPLE IN
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TRUMP'S WORLD INCLUDING HIS
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LAWYER RUDY GIULIANI.
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NICK, WHAT DO THOSE DEVELOPMENTS
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SIGNAL TO YOU ABOUT THE STATUS
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OF THAT PARTICULAR
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INVESTIGATION?
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I SEEM TO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS
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GOING TO BE MAYBE THE ONE
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INVESTIGATION THAT DOES DONALD
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TRUMP IN.
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>> OH, I TOTALLY AGREE, THIS IS
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THE INVESTIGATION EVERYBODY
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SHOULD KEEP THEIR EYES ON.
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BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT DONALD TRUMP
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ON TAPE TWICE, WITH BRAD
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RAFFENSPERGER, TRYING TO
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THREATEN AND PRESSURE HIM INTO
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BASICALLY FINDING MORE VOTES SO
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HE CAN TAKE THE ELECTORAL VOTES
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IN GEORGIA.
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YOU'VE GOT HIM ON TAPE WITH THE
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CHIEF INVESTIGATOR.
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AND YOU'VE GOT RUDY GIULIANI ON
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TAPE ALSO, TALKING TO THE
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GEORGIA SENATE, AND ON TOP OF
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ALL THAT, YOU'VE GOT THE
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GOVERNOR OF THE STATE, BRIAN
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KEMP, WHO WAS PRESSURED AND
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THREATENED BY DONALD TRUMP TO
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CHANGE THE VOTE AND TO CALL THE
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LEGISLATURE INTO SESSION.
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I MEAN, THIS IS THE KIND OF
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EVIDENCE WHERE YOU'VE GOT TAPE
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RECORDINGS, YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF
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WITNESSES, THEY ALL CORROBORATE
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EACH OTHER.
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I THINK IF THERE IS ONE CASE
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THAT IS GOING TO DO IN DONALD
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TRUMP, THIS IS IT, BECAUSE AT
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THE END OF THE DAY, MERRICK
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GARLAND HAS TO MAKE A DECISION
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HERE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
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THERE'S GOING TO BE A FEDERAL
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CASE.
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AND HE'S GOT A MAJOR PROBLEM IN
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DOING SO, BECAUSE OF A CONFLICT
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IN THE SENSE THAT HE WOULD BE
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PROSECUTING NOT JUST A FORMER
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PRESIDENT BUT HE WOULD BE
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PROSECUTING SOMEBODY WHO IS
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LIKELY TO BE THE PRIME OPPONENT
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OF JOE BIDEN IN THE 2024
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ELECTION.
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SO HE EITHER HAS TO DEFER TO
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GEORGIA, WHICH HE CAN DO UNDER
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THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
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GUIDELINES, HE CAN BASICALLY
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DECLINE PROSECUTION IN FAVOR OF
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THE GEORGIA PROSECUTION, WHICH
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IS SOMETHING I THINK HE COULD
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DO.
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OR HE COULD APPOINT SOMEBODY
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WHO'S REALLY A SPECIAL
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PROSECUTOR, NOT UNDER THE
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RIDICULOUS GUIDELINE THAT THEY
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HAVE NOW IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
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JUSTICE, THAT LETS THEM PUT THE
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THUMB ON THE SCALE OF THE AND
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PROSECUTOR, SPECIAL COUNSEL, AND
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BE A REAL SPECIAL COUNSEL LIKE
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THEY HAD IN WATERGATE WITH
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ARCHIBALD COX, WHO HAD TOTAL
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INDEPENDENCE.
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IT DEPENDS WHAT THE POTENTIAL
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DEFENSES ARE TRUMP CAN RAISE AND
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HOW STRONG THE GEORGIA CASE IS.
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AND RIGHT NOW, I PUT MY MONEY ON
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THE GEORGIA CASE.
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>> NICK ACKERMAN, THANK YOU FOR
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YOUR TIME.
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WE'LL KEEP ON WATCHING THAT
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GEORGIA CASE.
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WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK SO WE CAN
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START BREAKING DOWN EXACTLY WHAT
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HAPPENS IF AN INDICTM