Bill Barr refuses to say Trump & Giuliani wouldn’t sell pardons by Lawrence O'Donnell MSNBC May 17, 2023 #msnbc #giuliani #trump
MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell analyzes new comments from former Attorney General William Barr about the civil lawsuit filed against Rudy Giuliani, which alleges that he and former President Donald Trump conspired to sell pardons for $2 million dollars and split the profits.
Transcript
I'M HERE, AREN'T? I >> THANK, YOU. >> HAVE A GOOD NIGHT. >> I GET THE JOKE. >> THANKS ALEX, THANK YOU. WELL, IF YOU'RE TUNING INTO THIS PROGRAM IN THE HOPE THAT FOR THE THIRD NIGHT IN A ROW I WILL BEGIN BY READING NEW PASSAGES OF A 69-PAGE CIVIL COMPLAINT AND A LAWSUIT FILED IN MANHATTAN ON MONDAY ACCUSING RUDY GIULIANI OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, WITHHOLDING WAGES, FEDERAL INCOME TAX EVASION, AND SELLING CONDOS FOR TWO BILLION DOLLARS WHICH HE SOUL SPLIT WAS ON TRUMP. I AM SORRY. GLASS TONIGHT I HAVE READ TO YOU ALL OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PASSAGES IN THAT 69-PAGE COMPLAINT THAT I CAN ACTUALLY SAY ON TELEVISION. AS GROTESQUE AS MOST OF WHAT I HAVE ALREADY READ TO YOU THIS WEEK SOUNDS, IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE MOST GRAPHIC PARTS OF THE COMPLAINT. GIULIANI HAS STAYED ABSOLUTELY SILENT FOR THE NOW MORE THAN 48 HOURS THAT THESE WRITTEN ACCUSATIONS WERE MADE PUBLIC IN COURT. ON MONDAY AFTERNOON A SPOKESPERSON FOR GIULIANI ISSUED A WRITTEN STATEMENT SAYING THAT HE DENIES THE ACCUSATIONS. THAT'S IT. IF YOU ARE WONDERING WHY THERE HASN'T BEEN MUCH MORE COVERAGE OF THIS LAWSUIT ON TELEVISION, IN MIGHT BE BECAUSE THERE ARE SO FEW PARTS OF THE COMPLAINT THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE READ ON TELEVISION. THE MOST SERIOUS ACCUSATION IN THE DOCUMENT THAT INCLUDES DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT SELLING PARDONS FOR $2 MILLION DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY. AS I MENTIONED MONDAY, WHEN I READ THAT PASSAGE TO YOU, IT APPEARS ON THE SAME PAGE ON THE COMPLAINT WHERE THERE IS A SCREENSHOT OF RUDOLPH GIULIANI'S TEXT TO HIS EMPLOYEE, NOEL DAME FEE, WHO IS SUING HIM, SAYING, CAN I SHOWER WITH YOU? ON THE TOP OF THAT PAGE IS THE STORY ABOUT THE 2 MILLION DOLLAR PARDONS. QUOTE, GIULIANI ALSO ASKED MS. NOELLE DUNPHY IF YOU KNEW ANYONE ELSE WHO NEEDED PARDON, AS HE WAS SELLING FOR $2 MILLION. HE TOLD MS. NOELLE DUNPHY THAT SHE COULD REFER INDIVIDUAL SEEKING PARDONS TO HIM SO LONG AS THEY DID NOT GO THROUGH THE NORMAL CHANNELS OF THE OFFICE OF THE PARDON ATTORNEY, BECAUSE CORRESPONDENTS GOING INTO THAT OFFICE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO DISCLOSURE UNDER THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT. RUDOLPH GIULIANI HAS LET THAT ACCUSATION SIT FOR OVER TWO FULL DAYS NOW WHILE HE MAINTAINS COMPLETE SILENCE ABOUT IT. DONALD TRUMP'S LAST SENATE CONFIRMED ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS ASKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF RUDOLPH GIULIANI SELLING 2 MILLION DOLLAR PARDONS. AND HE DIDN'T EXACTLY OFFER A STRONG DEFENSE. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU TO MORE THINGS. A 70-PAGE COMPLAINT WAS FILED IN STATE COURT NEW YORKER MONDAY. THIS IS SOMEONE WHO WORKS RUDY GIULIANI, WHO ALLEGES NOT ONLY SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT BOUGHT THAT SHE HAS EVIDENCE THAT HE TRIED TO SELL PARDONS FOR $2 MILLION APIECE WHICH HE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD SPLIT. DO YOU THINK THAT IS POSSIBLE? >> I AM SKEPTICAL ABOUT THAT. I DON'T THINK RUDY GIULIANI WOULD DO THAT. I HOPE HE WOULDN'T. BUT I DON'T KNOW. >> I DON'T KNOW? I HOPE HE WOULDN'T? BUT? I DON'T KNOW? WHAT WILLIAM BARR KNOWS RUDOLPH GIULIANI WELL. WILLIAM BYRON KNOWS DONALD TRUMP WELL. AND WHEN ASKED IF THOSE TWO COULD HAVE TEAMED UP TO SELL 2 MILLION DOLLAR PARDON SPLIT THE MONEY, WILLIAM BYRON BARS ANSWER IS, I DON'T KNOW. ASKED THAT QUESTION TO ANY OTHER ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO WAS NOT APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP OR RICHARD NIXON AND HE WOULD GET A VERY VERY STRONG ANSWER TO THAT ACCUSATION, A VERY STRONG DEFENSE AGAINST AN ACCUSATION LIKE THAT. BUT TO THE QUESTION WAS RUDY GIULIANI SELLING PARDONS $2 MILLION IS SPLITTING THE MONEY WITH DONALD TRUMP, WILLIAM BARR'S BEST ANSWER, AS WE SAW HIM THINK ABOUT IT, PAUSE, AND THINK ABOUT, IT HIS BEST ANSWER IS, I DON'T KNOW. DON TRUMP'S ANSWER TO QUESTIONS ON CNN LAST WEEK MIGHT HAVE PROVOKED ONE OF HIS LAWYERS TO QUIT. ABOUT THE DOCUMENTS THE FBI SEIZED THE SEARCH WARRANT FROM DONALD TRUMP'S RESIDENCE IN FLORIDA THE DON'T TRUMP SAID I TOOK THE DOCUMENTS, I AM ALLOWED TO. HE ACTUALLY SAID THOSE WORDS. TODAY, TIMOTHY ONE -- , OF THE LAWYERS DEFENDING DONALD TRUMP IN JACK SMITH'S SPECIAL INVESTIGATION, QUIT. JACK SMIC SERVED A SUBPOENA ON HIM THE FORCED HIM TO TESTIFY TO THE GRAND JURY. LAST MONTH IN A LETTER TO REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED HOUSE COMMITTEE, THIS LAWYER SAID THE DOCUMENTS ENDED UP IN FLORIDA BY ACCIDENT. IT WAS JUST A MISTAKE. HE CLAIMED THAT THE TRUMP STAFF, QUOTE, QUICKLY PACKED EVERYTHING INTO BOXES AND SHIP THEM TO FLORIDA. HE CLAIMED THAT NONE OF THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ENDED UP AT THE TRUMP FLORIDA RESIDENTS BECAUSE OF, QUOTE, INTENTIONAL DECISIONS BY PRESIDENT TRUMP. DONALD TRUMP TURNED THAT LETTER INTO A LIE ON CNN LAST WEEK WHEN HE SAID I TOOK THE DOCUMENTS. I'M ALLOWED TO. DONALD TRUMP, IN EFFECT, REPEATEDLY LABELED THAT LAWYERS LATTER, THAT WAS SENT TO CONGRESS, AS FALSE. >> WHY DID YOU TAKE THOSE DOCUMENTS WITH YOU WHEN YOU AT THE WHITE HOUSE? >> I HAD EVERY RIGHT TO UNDER THE PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ACT. YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS ACT I WAS THERE, I TOOK WHAT I TOOK, AND GETS DECLASSIFIED. >> WHY DID YOU NOT TURN THEM OVER WHEN YOU GOT A SUBPOENA? >> BECAUSE WE WERE NEGOTIATING WITH THEM. AND BY THE WAY, THEY BECOME AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED WHEN I TOOK THEM. >> AND NOW, THE LAWYER WHO'S LETTER TO CONGRESS COMPLETELY DISAGREES WITH THAT HAS QUIT. THE AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED DEFENSE IS APPARENTLY UNDER MORE STRESS THAN EVER TONIGHT, WITH CNN REPORTING ON THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTER FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES TO DONALD TRUMP, INFORMING HIM THAT THE ARCHIVES IS GOING TO HANDLE TO SPECIAL PROSECUTOR JACK SMITH, 16 RECORDS. THE LETTER SAYS, THE 16 RECORDS IN QUESTION ALL REFLECT COMMUNICATIONS INVOLVING CLOSE PRESIDENTIAL ADVISERS, SOME OF THEM DIRECTED TO YOU PERSONALLY, CONCERNING WHETHER, WHY, AND HOWELL YOU SHOULD WE DECLASSIFY CERTAIN CLASSIFIED RECORDS. IF NONE OF THOSE DOCUMENTS SAY THE DONALD TRUMP COULD AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, SIMPLY BY TAKING THEM HOME, THEN DONALD TRUMP WILL BE IN EVEN MORE TROUBLE WHEN JACK SMITH GETS THOSE DOCUMENTS SCHEDULED TO BE DELIVERED TO HIM FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES NEXT WEEK. IN MANHATTAN, WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS A CRIMINAL DEFENDANT, HE RECEIVED SOME CLARIFICATION FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY ABOUT THE OTHER CRIMES THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY BELIEVES DONALD TRUMP INTENDED TO COMMIT AS A RESULT OF COMMITTING THE CRIME OF FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS TO CORRUPT LONG TRANSLATOR AND 30,000 DOLLAR CASH PAYMENT OF HUSH MONEY TO ACTRESS STORMY DANIELS. IN A COURT FILING THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAID, QUOTE, THE CRIME CRIMES DEFENDED INTENDED TO COMMIT OR TO AID OR CONCEAL NAY INCLUDE VIOLATIONS OF THE
Nine different federal judges have blamed Trump for January 6th by CitizensforEthics.org May 18, 2023
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Since the January 6th insurrection and storming of the U.S. Capitol, federal judges have repeatedly and pointedly laid the blame on former President Donald Trump for inciting the attack. Other judges may soon face similar questions as they consider Trump’s legal culpability for the insurrection, including whether he is constitutionally disqualified to hold public office under the 14th Amendment.
In fifteen cases overseen by nine different judges appointed by Republican and Democratic presidents, courts have not minced words in declaring that Trump was the central cause of the January 6, 2021 insurrection, echoing the findings of the bipartisan January 6th Select Committee. Time and again judges have found that Trump inflamed his supporters with the lie of a “stolen” election, urged them to “fight” to take back their country, and sent them to the Capitol to “stop the steal.” Trump used violent rhetoric to whip his supporters into a frenzy and do illegally what he had tried and failed to do legally: stop certification of the election for Joe Biden. Although Trump has not yet faced criminal charges for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, federal judges hearing cases relating to the January 6th insurrection have repeatedly recognized the immense power and influence of Trump’s actions and words over his supporters, as well as Trump’s ultimate responsibility for the attack carried out by his supporters on his behalf and at his behest.
In a civil lawsuit brought by members of Congress and police officers who defended the Capitol on January 6th, U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta wrote that Trump’s statements at his January 6th “Stop the Steal” rally were “plausibly words of incitement not protected by the First Amendment.” The speech “was akin to telling an excited mob that corn-dealers starve the poor in front of the corn-dealer’s home. He invited his supporters to Washington, D.C., after telling them for months that corrupt and spineless politicians were to blame for stealing an election from them; retold that narrative when thousands of them assembled on the Ellipse; and directed them to march on the Capitol building—the metaphorical corn-dealer’s house—where those very politicians were at work to certify an election that he had lost.”
In another case, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly highlighted Trump’s responsibility in finding criminal defendant Danean MacAndrew guilty of several crimes for her participation in what the judge described as an “insurrection” on January 6, 2021. The judge found: “[A]t the ‘Stop the Steal’ rally, then-President Trump eponymously exhorted his supporters to, in fact, stop the steal by marching to the Capitol. Defendant marched to the Capitol where, she testified, she understood that only Congress had the power to fix the election’s outcome and that Congress was likely in session while she was around and in the Capitol. Having followed then-President Trump’s instructions, which were in line with her stated desires, the Court therefore finds that Defendant intended her presence to be disruptive to Congressional business.”
During the sentencing of January 6th defendant John Lolos, Judge Mehta noted that Lolos was heavily swayed by Trump’s rhetoric, and Lolos only left the Capitol building after being confronted by police officers who ordered him to leave. Judge Mehta pointed out that Lolos flew from Seattle to Washington, D.C. to protest what he called “voter fraud.” After Trump’s “Stop the Steal” rally, where Trump directed his followers to “fight like hell,” Lolos joined others in marching to the Capitol building, breached police barriers and the building, and spent nearly 45 minutes inside, taking photos, waving his flag, taking selfies and other photos. He joined the mob in chanting at police officers trying to clear insurrectionists out of the building.
“The fact remains that he and others were called to Washington, D.C. by an elected official; he was prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official. People like Mr. Lolos were told lies, fed falsehoods, and told that our election was stolen when it clearly was not.”-- Judge Amit Mehta
At Lolos’ sentencing, Judge Mehta said, “The fact remains that he and others were called to Washington, D.C. by an elected official; he was prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official. People like Mr. Lolos were told lies, fed falsehoods, and told that our election was stolen when it clearly was not.” Judge Mehta recognized that Lolos, like many others that day, were “pawns” in Trump’s scheme to overturn the 2020 election results.
Or take January 6th defendant Nicole Prado. She told the FBI that she anticipated violence on January 6th and willingly went into the Capitol building, despite her understanding that she was not supposed to enter the grounds. Prado eventually made her way into the office of the ranking member of the House Appropriations Committee. In her sentencing hearing, U.S. District Judge Rudolph Contreras said, “The events of January 6th involved the rather unprecedented confluence of events spurred by then President Trump and a number of his prominent allies who bear much responsibility for what occurred on that day.”
Perhaps the most direct attribution pinning January 6th on Donald Trump came from U.S. District Judge David O. Carter in a lawsuit between the January 6th Select Committee and Trump lawyer John Eastman. In ruling that certain communications were not protected by the attorney-client privilege, Judge Carter concluded it was “more likely than not that President Trump” committed a felony by “corruptly attempt[ing] to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021.” Judge Carter remarked:
“The illegality of the plan was obvious. Our nation was founded on the peaceful transition of power, epitomized by George Washington laying down his sword to make way for democratic elections. Ignoring this history, President Trump vigorously campaigned for the Vice President to single-handedly determine the results of the 2020 election. As Vice President Pence stated, ‘no Vice President in American history has ever asserted such authority.’ Every American—and certainly the President of the United States—knows that in a democracy, leaders are elected, not installed. With a plan this ‘BOLD,’ President Trump knowingly tried to subvert this fundamental principle. Based on the evidence, the Court finds it more likely than not that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021.”
In these instances and more, federal judges have drawn a direct connection between what happened at the Capitol on January 6th and former President Trump’s actions. Judges are assigning blame where it is rightly due. Instead of accepting his defeat in 2020, Donald Trump violated his oath to the Constitution by sending a violent mob of his supporters to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in American history. His abuse of power threatened to undermine our democratic institutions. The evidence could not be clearer that Trump is responsible for what happened on January 6, 2021, and judges recognize that reality.
Judge / Court / Date / Statement / Citation / Link
Judge Rudolph Contreras / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-02-07 / “The events of January 6th involved the rather unprecedented confluence of events spurred by then President Trump and a number of his prominent allies who bear much responsibility for what occurred on that day.” / Transcript of Sentencing at 38, United States of America v. Nicole Prado (D.D.C. Feb. 7, 2022) (No. 1:21-cr-00403-RC). / Source
Judge Rudolph Contreras / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-02-04 / “The events of January 6th involved a rather unprecedented confluence of events spurred by then President Trump and a number of his prominent allies who bear much responsibility for what occurred on that day.” / Transcript of Sentencing at 28, United States of America v. Richard Franklin Barnard and Jeffery Shane Witcher (D.D.C. Feb 4, 2022) (No. 1:21-cr-00235-RC). / Source
Judge Rudolph Contreras / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-01-20 / "The events of January 6th involved a rather unprecedented confluence of events spread by then President Trump and a number of his prominent allies who bear much responsibility for what occurred on that day." / Transcript of Sentencing at 68, United States v Stepakoff (D.D.C. Jan. 20, 2022) (No. 1:21-cr-00096-RC) / Source
Judge Rudolph Contreras / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-02-07 / “The events of January 6th involved a rather unprecedented confluence of events spurred by then-President Trump and a number of his prominent allies who bear much responsibility for what occurred on that day.” Transcript of Sentencing at 28, United States v. Vic Williams (D.D.C. Feb. 7, 2022) (No. 1:21-cr-00388-RC-1). / Source
Judge Amit Mehta / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-02-18 / “President Trump’s January 6 Rally Speech was akin to telling an excited mob that corn-dealers starve the poor in front of the corn-dealer’s home. He invited his supporters to Washington, D.C., after telling them for months that corrupt and spineless politicians were to blame for stealing an election from them; retold that narrative when thousands of them assembled on the Ellipse; and directed them to march on the Capitol building—the metaphorical corn-dealer’s house—where those very politicians were at work to certify an election that he had lost.”
Additional Statements: “The President argues that, at most, Plaintiffs have pleaded that the President ‘made political statements . . . at a rally meant to persuade political officials.’ But that contention misses the forest for the trees. It ignores the larger context of the Rally Speech. For months, the President led his supporters to believe the election was stolen. When some of his supporters threatened state election officials, he refused to condemn them. Rallies in Washington, D.C., in November and December 2020 had turned violent, yet he invited his supporters to Washington, D.C., on the day of the Certification. They came by the thousands. And, following a 75-minute speech in which he blamed corrupt and weak politicians for the election loss, he called on them to march on the very place where Certification was taking place.”; Plaintiffs’ allegations show a call-and-response quality to the President’s communications, of which the President would have been aware. The Complaints contain numerous examples of the President’s communications being understood by supporters as direct messages to them and, in the case of the January 6 Rally, as a call to action.; [T]he President’s January 6 Rally Speech can reasonably be viewed as a call for collective action. The President’s regular use of the word “we” is notable. To name just a few examples: “We will not take it anymore”; “We will ‘stop the steal’”; “We will never give up”; “We will never concede”; “We will not take it anymore”; “All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president”; “[W]e’re going to have to fight much harder”; “We can’t let that happen”; “We’re going to walk down . . .”; “We fight like hell”; “We’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.” / Mem. Op. & Order at 97, Thompson v Trump, 590 F. Supp. 3d 46 (D.D.C. 2022) (No. 21-cv-00400). / Source
Judge Amit Mehta / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-11-19 / “The fact remains that he and others were called to Washington, D.C. by an elected official; he was prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official. People like Mr. Lolos were told lies, fed falsehoods, and told that our election was stolen when it clearly was not.” / Transcript of Sentencing at 55, United States v. Lolos (D.D.C. Nov. 19, 2021) (No. CR 21-243). / Source
Judge Amy Berman Jackson / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-05-26 / “[t]he steady drumbeat that inspired defendant to take up arms has not faded away; six months later, the canard that the election was stolen is being repeated daily on major news outlets and from the corridors of power in state and federal government, not to mention the near-daily fulminations of the former President.” / Mem. Op. at 24, United States v. Meredith (D.D.C. May 26, 2021) (No. 21-0159 (SBJ))./ Source
Judge Amy Berman Jackson / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-05-27 / “Defendant's promise to take action in the future cannot be dismissed as an unlikely occurrence given that his singular source of information, see Reply ¶ 8 (“Trump's the only big shot I trust right now”), continues to propagate the lie that inspired the attack on a near daily basis.” / United States Of America, v. Karl Dresch, 2021 WL 2453166 at *8 (D.D.C. May 27, 2021) (No. CR 21-0071 (ABJ)). / Source
Judge Amy Berman Jackson / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-08-04 / He may very well have sincerely believed that the election had been unfair and tainted. I don't doubt that. But that belief was misguided. By that time even the Republican election officials in the challenged states had said over and over, when more than 60 judges across the country had said – including Republican judges, including judges appointed by President Trump himself -- had said over and over, there is no evidence behind these claims. At the end of the day the fact is that the defendant came to the Capitol because he placed his trust in someone who repaid that trust by lying to him. / Transcript of Plea and Sentence at 30, United States of America v. Karl Dresch (D.D.C. Aug 4, 2021) (No. 21-cr-71). / Source
Judge Amy Berman Jackson / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-12-01 / “And as for the incendiary statements at the rally detailed in the sentencing memo, which absolutely, quite clearly and deliberately, stoked the flames of fear and discontent and explicitly encouraged those at the rally to go to the Capitol and fight for one reason and one reason only, to make sure the certification did not happen, those may be a reason for what happened, they may have inspired what happened, but they are not an excuse or justification.” / Transcript of Sentencing at 22, United States v Russell Peterson, (D.D.C December 1, 2021) (No. 21-cr-309). / Source
Magistrate Judge Michael John Aloi / U.S. District Court for the Northern District of West Virginia 2021-03-22 / “Everyone in our country knows what happened on January 6th. We also generally know -- although, I don't know why Mr. Tanios was there and Mr. Khater was there -- but we know, looking at it now, that they were supporting the president who would not accept that he was defeated in an election. And it was on that day when Congress, under their oath, the Constitution was to certify the electoral college. That's not happenstance that they picked January 6th.” / United States v George Tanios, CRIMINAL ACTION NO. 1:21-mj-27 (N.D. W. Va. March 22, 2021) / Source
Judge David O. Carter / U.S. District Court for the Central District of California / 2022-03-28 / “The illegality of the plan was obvious. Our nation was founded on the peaceful transition of power, epitomized by George Washington laying down his sword to make way for democratic elections.239 Ignoring this history, President Trump vigorously campaigned for the Vice President to single-handedly determine the results of the 2020 election. As Vice President Pence stated, “no Vice President in American history has ever asserted such authority.” Every American—and certainly the President of the United States—knows that in a democracy, leaders are elected, not installed. With a plan this “BOLD,” President Trump knowingly tried to subvert this fundamental principle. Based on the evidence, the Court finds it more likely than not that President Trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the Joint Session of Congress on January 6, 2021.” / Eastman v. Thompson, 594 F. Supp. 3d 1156, 6-7 (C.D. Cal. 2022) / Source
Judge John D. Bates / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-12-28 / “These words [Trump’s J6 Speech] only encourage those at the rally to march to the Capitol—nothing more— and do not address legality at all. But, although his express words only mention walking down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, one might conclude that the context implies that he was urging protestors to do something more—perhaps to enter the Capitol building and stop the certification. But even if so, there is simply no indication that Trump informed the protestors that doing so would be legal, as required to make out either defense. His speech simply suggests that it would be an act of ‘boldness’ to ‘stop the steal.’” / Mem. Op. at 19, United States v. Alexander Sheppard (D.D.C. Dec. 28, 2022) (Criminal Action No. 21-203 (JDB)). / Source
Judge Beryl Howell / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2021-10-29 / “You admit you should have known better, but somehow that day you didn't. And you say that you headed to the Capitol Building not with any intent to obstruct and impede congressional proceedings; but because the then-President, Trump, told protesters at the "stop the steal" rally -- and I quote: After this, we're going to walk down; and I will be there with you. We're going to walk down. We're going to walk down. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol Building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. And you say that you wanted to show your support for and join then-President Trump as he said he would be marching to the Capitol; but, of course, didn't.” / Transcript of Sentencing at 36, United States v. Leonard Gruppo (D.D.C. Oct. 29, 2021) (No. 21-391). / Source
Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2023-01-17 / “ [A]t the “Stop the Steal” rally, then-President Trump eponymously exhorted his supporters to, in fact, stop the steal by marching to the Capitol. Defendant marched to the Capitol where, she testified, she understood that only Congress had the power to fix the election’s outcome and that Congress was likely in session while she was around and in the Capitol. Having followed then-President Trump’s instructions, which were in line with her stated desires, the Court therefore finds that Defendant intended her presence to be disruptive to Congressional business.” / United States v. MacAndrew, 2022 WL 17983533 at 15 (D.D.C. Jan. 17, 2023) (No. CR 21-730 (CKK)). / Source
Judge Reggie B. Walton / U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia / 2022-04-14 / "You know, I think our democracy is in trouble. Because unfortunately, we have charlatans like our former president, who doesn't in my view really care about democracy, but only about power. And as a result of that, it's tearing this country apart. I have a concern that we have, unfortunately, American citizens who were so gullible that they were willing to accept what was being said without any proof that the allegations about the election had any merit whatsoever. People are just outraged at how they feel our system is not taking seriously what happened on that day because of their fear of the future of this country." / United States v. Thompson, 21-cr-161 (D.D.C. Apr. 14, 2022) / Source
Trump lawyer [Evan Corcoran] CONFESSES and throws Trump Under the Bus by Michael Popok MeidasTouch May 30, 2023
Michael Popok of Legal AF reports on breaking developments in the Jack Smith Mar a Lago criminal investigation with former Trump attorney Evan Corcoran confessing that he was mislead as to the location of all the national security and classified documents by both Trump himself and Trump’s associates while searching Mar a Lago to comply with the DOJ subpoena, as the prosecutors continue to squeeze Trump’s personal assistant Walt Nauta to flip.
Transcript
this is Michael popock legal AF. we got some breaking news coming out of the guardian and their investigative reporting about Mar-A-Lago as Jack Smith reaches his final recommendations to indict Donald Trump related to the uh stolen and mishandled National Security information top secret classified documents at Mar-A-Lago what's the new information that's what this hot take is about Evan Corcoran has told the grand jury and prosecutors according to at least two sources and told his own Associates that he was misled about the location of documents classified National Security matters materials at Mar-A-Lago by those closest to Donald Trump himself and that Donald Trump never told Evan Corcoran or disabused them of the notion that the only location for those documents was just in one storage room when there was another hundred that were sitting just inside of Donald Trump's office and desk but Evan Corcoran never searched those areas he was he was told not to search those areas he was told that all the information all of the of the retained improperly retained documents from the White House were sitting in one location but that was a lie so now you have the the Department of Justice trying to get to the bottom of why were there boxes being moved by Walt nauta Donald Trump's personal valet after the subpoena was issued and while they were responding to it this is even before the search warrant The subpoena which is a demand under under penalties of of perjury and contempt review failed to respond is issued by lawyers under the auspices of a federal judge and requires that documents be turned over over pursue it to that subpoena if not then there's a court process for contempt if that doesn't work you go in and you get a search warrant which is what they did so you've got a June subpoena and an August search warrant against Donald Trump why the Department of Justice wants to know why did Donald Trump give the instructions for Walt now to move boxes in and out of the storage room that same room that they directed Evan Corcoran to look to look for documents it was the only place they spoon-fed misled Evan Corcoran the lawyer for Donald Trump and said just look in the storage room that's where all the documents are don't go into Daddy's office don't go into Daddy's desk drawer there's nothing for you to see there and Evan Corcoran said okay but Evan corcoran's problem is he signed along with Christina Bob a certificate under penalty of perjury that they conducted a diligent search and that they only found 38 documents top secret classified National Security documents and they put it in a sealed envelope and gave it to the Department of Justice the Department of Justice already knew from other witnesses that that was false that there were documents in other rooms at Mar-A-Lago specifically the office and desk so they caught Evan Corcoran in in a trap now Evan corcoran's defense is that's what I was told by my client that's what I was told by Donald Trump I was told that the only place to look I needed to look was the storage room and that's the only place I looked and I needed Walt now to open the doors because he had the keys and when Walt now to ask to sit in while I did my review I said no but that's the only place that I searched so that's the new testimony we know now from Evan Corcoran why do we know about it now why haven't we heard about this before because let's be frank the Department of Justice is doing strategic leaking of this information to put pressure on people like Walt nauta who as of right now have not fully cooperated with the Department of Justice in fact Walton out his lawyers have been told by the Department of Justice and and the special counsel prosecutors that their client is in deep deep that their client has not been truthful and accurate in giving his information to the Department of Justice which is a potential crime and they want Walt now to to play ball against Donald Trump and as of yet they haven't so you see these strategic leaks that I can report on in this particular hot take that's where we are as of right now we know that Evan Corcoran is throwing Donald Trump under the bus and saying I was misled I was sent into the into the storage room that's where I told document I was told documents were and I didn't search anywhere else and how do we know all this from Evan Corcoran because he turned over 50 pages of attorney notes that he took in conversation with his client Donald Trump Donald Trump's aides Walt nouda and others and he had to turn it over to the Department of Justice because he was ordered to but when the Department of Justice sought to uh have him drop the attorney-client privilege the most sacrosanct privilege between a lawyer and a client got ripped away from Donald Trump who holds the privilege and his lawyer Evan Corcoran because judge Beryl Howell the then chief judge of the D.C Circuit Court who oversees all grand juries she ruled that there was likely a crime or fraud being perpetrated by Donald Trump and therefore under the crime fraud exception of the attorney-client privilege she stripped the attorney-client privilege away from Donald Trump made Evan Corcoran testify without it about every deepest darkest conversation he had with his client had to be revealed to the um Grand Jury about Mar-A-Lago and the handling of those documents and his own documents his case his file his client file how to be turned over and now we know how big of a problem it is and what the focus of the Department of Justice is they have video surveillance uh cameras from the Trump organization out in front of the doors of the storage room and they saw two things well they saw one thing and one thing they didn't see they saw Walt Nauta the day before right after the subpoena was issued moving boxes in and out of the storage room and they don't know exactly where the boxes that were taken out went next is that bet Minster because we have a maintenance worker who testified already and has cooperated with the Department of Justice that he helped Walt now to load an SUV to drive to Bedminster from Mar-A-Lago for those that are not from this country or don't know geography that is a 18-hour drive from Mar-A-Lago to Bedminster New Jersey filled with boxes Department of Justice wants to get to the bottom of it will we see a subpoena and or search warrant for Bedminster Golf Course I predict we will but they're trying the Department of Justice to get Walt nouda right to flip he has it as of yet these strategic media placements of this news like today will help them with that Evan Corcoran and his testimony that he got misled by Donald Trump and that Donald Trump never told him to go look where he knew that the boxes were in his office that's a problem that's called Criminal Intent for Donald Trump as they try to come up with the motive for why this this ex-president held on to these documents and wouldn't let him be pulled out of his dead cold fingers why and of course now we know the Department of Justice is also searching through records and subpoenas about foreign relations between Donald Trump and foreign powers because they found boxes and and uh documents related to those foreign powers in the office in the desk during the search warrant that's the connected links there the new reporting today will continue to follow Evan Corcoran saying I was misled by my own client Walt nauta talking about uh moving of documents and having him cooperate the video camera as I said before they saw Walt nauta what they didn't see is there are gaps in the video this is like the Nixon you know 18 minutes of missing audio during Watergate where it where are the video where's the video for critical moments they've already the Department of Justice have subpoenaed and interviewed um uh Matt calamari and Matt calamari Jr the two heads of security for the Trump organization they're cooperating and they've subpoenaed the company the video surveillance company that that manages those video cameras where why are why are there gaps and the Department of Justice is trying to get to the bottom of it as they tie all this together in time to go make their recommendation in a report to Merrick Garland the Attorney General who will then after the full presentation of the material right one of the most uh important historical PowerPoint presentations in American history is coming up with with uh Jack Smith his team of prosecutors and Merrick Garland on at least Mar-A-Lago if not the three or four other grand juries that are looking at other Trump criminality and then from there back to the grand jury to seek the indictment which will initially be sealed and then unsealed for the American public there that's where we're at for those that are scratching their head and rubbing their eyes like can they believe it justice is finally going to be done Justice is finally going to be done people that didn't think Donald Trump would ever been indicted would ever be indicted or convicted his entities got convicted 17 times in New York for tax fraud he's been indicted now we're talking about the federal indictments likely by Jack Smith and his team that have been working around the clock for the last eight months and then of course funny Willis in Georgia the prosecutor who has already declared that she's going to be seeking an indictment of people read those read that as Donald Trump and others at the end of July the beginning of August this is the summer of accountability right last year was the was the year of Investigation this year is the year of indictment and trial setting and 2023 and 2024 are the trials yes it's going to coincide with the U.S election but so what he'll have to run Donald Trump will have to run for office as the leading as he likes to say the leading candidate for the Republican nomination or for the whole presidency as a twice impeached multiply indicted potentially convicted a judged sex abuser candidate and if that is okay with the majority of the Republicans that vote so be it he will go down in flames and lose horribly to the president of the United States Joe Biden that's the reporting for today I'll continue to report on the Evan Corcoran Mar-A-Lago Walt Nauta connections on hot takes just like this one only on the Meidas touch Network on Wednesdays and Saturdays I do a um I co-anchor a podcast that is at the intersection of U.S law and politics called Legal AF you can follow us on YouTube and every place you get your podcast and if you like what I'm doing on content like this one give me a thumbs up it's helpful to what we do it's meaningful to me as are the comments and you can follow me Michael popock on all things social media at Ms popoc this is Michael popock legal AF reporting
Trump Bucks SCAM Exposed DESTROYING Life Savings of MAGA Followers by Ben Meiselas MeidasTouch May 30, 2023
MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas reports on the latest grift targeting Donald Trump supporters. It’s called ‘Trump Bucks.’ Seriously.
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch Network let's take a look at the newest Maga Republican grift it's called Trump bucks and what's been happening is that Mega followers have been going into banks with these Trump bucks these Trump dollar bills and gold coins that they've been purchasing online which they've been told they will get 10x or 50x returns from and the banks have been telling them we don't accept your Trump bucks here NBC broke this story the article was called Trump bucks promise wealth for Maga loyalty some lose thousands you think the products are advertised online as a kind of golden ticket that will help Propel Trump's 2024 bid and make the quote real Patriots who support him Rich when they are cashed in the article covers one Trump supporter in particular named John Ammon of course his Twitter handle is johnama 348-28664 and it says alert if you purchased any of the trb systems items you got scammed the trb vouchers Donald J trumpgoldenchecks Donald J Trump Diamond checks trb golden checks have no monetary value they are only commemorative only you think the article goes on to talk about how these Mega Republicans believe that Trump's ouster was part of a great conspiracy and that by investing in the Trump rebate banking system trb the Trump rebate banking system or trb for short Trump will reward their loyalty by making them Rich those who buy these items the ads from a company called Patriots dynasty Patriots future and USA Patriots suggest will be rewarded when Trump unveils a new monetary system that will turn these products into legal tender worth far more than the purchase price invest in a trb membership card quote issued by Donald Trump the ads from Patriot Dynasty Patriots future and USA Patriots claim and the purchaser who spent say 99.99 on a ten thousand dollar Diamond Trump bucks bill will be able to cash it in for ten thousand dollars at Major Banks and retailers like Walmart Costco and Home Depot of course this is all all a fraud by the way here is the website for the trb collect card just so you see what it looks like and this is what it says it goes the trb black collect card is here it is finally time to claim what is yours make your dreams come true because this is your only chance to get a hold of the trb black collect card we know all of you have been waiting patiently for so long and now is the time when you will have everything that was promised with President Trump you always have a chance for a better future week leave strong stay glad to see so many of you are strong Patriots and it goes on to say makes a perfect gift for other Patriots and Trump supporters live the American dream live the life you were promised and get the things you always wanted without thinking twice enjoy the benefits as a trump supporter there are 74 million Americans and a hundred million around the world Trump supporters the trb membership is an official validation to the customer for being a member of the trb club which strives to be the biggest supporters Club of Donald Trump all United in one goal to do whatever they can to support him and here's the thing folks there has been this entire ecosystem built around Donald Trump's script and this is just one of countless examples and it's predatory and preying on people frankly who magger Republicans are attacking each and every day with their policies and they are being grifted upon and lied to with all of these fake claims meanwhile the actual political party is getting them all angry about whatever issued du jour of their culture War of the day meanwhile they're picking their pockets each and every day quite literally it's got a bunch of weird fake looking reviews from these people and it's and it's just sad to see it's like these photos of families someone named Charlotte I originally ordered 10 trb black cards but I had to come back to order 20 more my friends were really happy when they received them oh that sounds legit Ted and Miranda right I'm a loyal supporter of Donald Trump and I can say that this trb black card changed my life my family sure loved them I'm not going to read you uh the others uh the article goes on to talk about how trb system membership cards are official cards this is what the false claim is issued by Donald Trump to allow Trump bucks holders to use Trump bucks as legal tender and deposit them in Banks such as JPMorgan Chase the Bank of America and Wells Fargo a narrator identified only as John says in the advertisements and all of that is completely false the article then goes on to highlight a Alabama Grand grandmother who brought the Trump bucks into a Bank of America and the teller told her she'd seen dozens of people coming in to cash these products but it's a fraud here's what the article says one 75 year old Alabama grandmother who consented to having her picture taken by NBC but asked not to be identified by name for fear of Internet harassment told NBC News the message she got from watching the pitches on the internet was that Trump was going to make her rich but the grandmother who describes herself as quote a real Patriot said what she got for the fifteen hundred dollars she invested in the Trump bucks turned out to be Fool's Gold quote I saw all these ads on telegram that had Trump pushing coins and checks that he endorsed and how you can cash them in after a year and make a profit the grandmother who lives uh is told NBC I was told how you can go back to I was told how you can go to Bank of America or Target or Amazon to cash them in about six months ago the grandmother said she gathered up the Trump bucks and commemorative coins she had purchased and drove 60 miles east to the nearest Bank of America branch she could find in Pensacola Florida there she said she was greeted by a teller who told her she'd been scammed quote when we get there the lady tells me she's been seeing dozens of people coming in to cash these checks and they they have nothing to do with this the grandmother said it of course that was happening in Florida a Florida woman who lives north of Tampa and who also asked not to be identified by name because she fears internet harassment said her 77 year old grandmother-in-law was also fooled into investing tens of thousands of dollars into Trump bucks quote my mother-in-law has always been conservative and prone to believe in conspiracy theories that doesn't make her conservative we need to stop calling these Trump supporters conservative but quote but after Trump lost the election she went down the internet rabbit hole with this to prove to our mother-in-law that she had been swindled the Florida woman said she drove her to a nearby Bank and urged her to try to redeem the Trump bucks in her possession quote we thought she got it she even admitted she got scammed the Florida woman said quote but then giant boxes arrived at the house full of trump checks and other stuff she bought for five hundred dollars and that would supposedly be worth six million dollars one day we tell her she's getting scammed and she says quote just wait Trump will make all the Patriots Rich quote it's like she's in a cult the Florida woman said now as from Donald Trump in the Trump campaign according to this NBC article repeated attempts to reach a spokesperson for Trump and his re-election campaign by email have gone unanswered but no evidence suggests that the alleged scammers are connected to Trump or his re-election campaign but I will say this if you go to truth social don't go but if you do which I do because I do these reports you will see on these that the ads on Truth social are for products that look very similar okay I don't know if these products are the same ones that are talked about in the NBC article but look at this this is on Trump's social media platform what's being advertised patriotsurging.com Trump issues free one thousand dollar bill to all supporters claim yours now this is an ad ostensibly Trump is getting paid for this if this is on true social here's another one from Newsmax during the Trump speech and you know the links between Newsmax and Donald Trump and the right-wing ecosystem where it says Trump's speech special free gold coin unqualifying orders if you just text Trump to that phone number here's another ad by the way on Truth social tired of overpaying woke insurance companies this is the insurance company endorsed by Don Jr and as I talked about before there is this entire grifting ecosystem modeled after Donald Trump's ultimate grift if you ever go to um watch any of these videos we post about these Trump rallies for example it's all of these trumpers like grifting off of other trumpers like that's it's an ecosystem of grift here's one for example from a trump rally back in 2021 where they were selling women's P funnels for fifteen dollars during the rally and the same booth that selling P funnels was selling the Cowboy Coffee as well so Cowboy Coffee what actually looks free Cowboy Coffee if you buy the women's pee funnel right there and then you have all of these shirts that they buy and it and they sell each other it is very problematic folks going to the story of the uh women who said that her mother-in-law is in a cult we have to call thisbBehavior by its name and that's an accurate one but it's not the other c word it's not conservative this Behavior this is just not normal behavior okay this is problematic Behavior this is dangerous Behavior okay and this is what the Republican party has become today the Maga Republican party deeply distressing but it is important for us all in the pro-democracy community to call it out and that's what we do here on the Meidas touch Network each and every day hit subscribe on the YouTube channel we're on our way to 1.5 million subscribers thanks to your awesome support check us out at patreon.com Meidas Touch for the best pro-democracy membership content and wherever you get audio podcast subscribe to the Meidas touch audio podcast as well have a great day and hit subscribe on our YouTube channel
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‘Trump Bucks’ promise wealth for MAGA loyalty. Some lose thousands. The products are advertised online as a kind of golden ticket that will help propel Trump’s 2024 bid and make the “real patriots” who support him rich when they are cashed in.
Photo Illustration: Donald Trump and "membership cards" for the "Official TRB System". A get-rich-quick scam taking hold on the internet promises big profits to purchasers of "Trump Bucks" but instead delivers memorabilia that no bank will cash. NBC News / Getty Images; Golden Patriots Future by Brandy Zadrozny and Corky Siemaszko NBC News May 27, 2023, 5:00 AM MDT
In the recesses of the internet where some of Donald Trump’s most fervent supporters stoke conspiracies and plot his return to the White House, suspected con artists have been mining their disappointment over the last presidential election for gold.
They’ve been peddling “Trump Bucks,” which are emblazoned with photos of the former president, and advertising them online as a kind of golden ticket that will help propel Trump’s 2024 bid and make the “real patriots” who support him rich when cashed in.
John Amann told NBC News he bought $2,200 worth of Trump Bucks and other items over the past year only to discover they were worthless when he tried to cash them in at his local bank. So he’s gone on Twitter to warn other Trump supporters not to fall for this scam.
John Amann @JohnAma34828664·Follow Alert if you purchased any of the TRB SYSTEMS ITEMS, YOU GOT SCAMMED. THE TRB VOUCHERS, DJT GOLDEN CHECKS, DJT DIAMOND CHECKS, TRB GOLDEN CHECKS have no monetary values they are COMMEMORATIVE ONLY. 3:58 AM · Feb 3, 2023
NBC News has identified the Colorado-based companies behind the Trump Bucks as Patriots Dynasty, Patriots Future and USA Patriots and reviewed dozens of social posts, online complaints and hundreds of misleading ads for the products. Additionally, NBC News has found at least a dozen people like Amann who say they invested thousands of dollars after watching the pitches on Telegram and other websites that strongly suggested that Trump himself was endorsing these products.
“Now I’m questioning whether he is aware of this,” Amann said of Trump.
Repeated attempts to reach a spokesperson for Trump and his re-election campaign by email have gone unanswered. No evidence suggests the alleged scammers are connected to Trump or his re-election campaign.
In addition to tweeting a warning to others about the scam, Amann said he posted a review on TrustPilot, a website where consumers can rate and review businesses.
The Federal Trade Commission, in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from NBC News, confirmed it has received one fraud complaint against Patriots Dynasty that was filed in January. But it provided no further details about the single complaint or who filed it.
The Better Business Bureau has given the companies, which operate out of an industrial center in the Denver suburb of Aurora, an F rating, and the 33 complaints on the BBB site are unsparing in their criticism of the company.
Repeated attempts to reach representatives for the companies by phone and email were unsuccessful. But Bank of America spokesman Bill Halldin said he’s heard reports from bank employees of customers coming in to exchange their Trump Bucks for actual cash, but the bank routinely turns them down.
“It’s hard to put a number on how many people have come in,” Halldin said when asked for more specifics about who these people are and where they are located.
BOA, as a matter of course, is continually on the lookout for fraudsters and circulates information in-house about possible scams, Halldin said.
That’s little comfort to Amann, who is 77 and lives in Houston. “There’s no way to cash out what I have,” he said.
What it is
Since 2020, when Joe Biden defeated Trump in the presidential election, internet hucksters have been selling pro-Trump products like coins, checks and cards and marketing them as novelty items.
The fine print on the websites offering these items usually notes that they are memorabilia.
But on social media and in promotional videos — many featuring faked celebrity endorsements — the sellers have tapped an audience that believes Trump’s ouster was part of a great conspiracy and that by investing in the Trump Rebate Banking System, or TRB for short, Trump will reward their loyalty by making them rich.
Those who buy these items, the ads from Patriots Dynasty, Patriots Future and USA Patriots suggest, will be rewarded when Trump unveils a new monetary system that will turn these products into legal tender worth far more than the purchase price.
A booklet, a check and a collection of coins an Alabama grandmother bought when she invested $1,500 in “Trump Bucks.” Dan Anderson for NBC News
Invest in a TRB membership card “issued by Donald Trump,” the ads from Patriots Dynasty, Patriots Future and USA Patriots claim, and the purchaser who spent, say, $99.99 on a “$10,000 Diamond Trump Bucks” bill will be able to cash it in for $10,000 at major banks and retailers like Walmart, Costco and Home Depot.
“TRB system membership cards are official cards issued by Donald Trump to allow Trump Bucks holders to use Trump Bucks as legal tender and deposit them in banks such as JP Morgan Chase, the Bank of America and Wells Fargo,” a narrator identified only as “John” that appears to be a computer-generated voice says in one YouTube ad just moments after cautioning viewers that “Trump Bucks are not legal tender.”
“Wells Fargo has no affiliation with this product, and cannot accept it for deposit,” a bank spokesperson said.
JP Morgan Chase did not immediately respond to an email from NBC News seeking additional comment.
It’s a get-rich-quick scam that is catnip to a certain kind of Trump supporter — including QAnon believers and others who believe the former president is the only solution to America’s problems.
NBC also reached out to representatives for Walmart, Costco and Home Depot by email to see if they’ve had customers come in to try to cash in their Trump Bucks.
“We don’t have any connection to this, and it isn’t a problem we’re seeing at our stores,” Home Depot spokesman Terrance Roper said in an email to NBC News.
Walmart spokesman Robert Arrieta said “we have not heard of this scam.”
An Alabama grandmother holds one of the coins she bought online in her apartment in Mobile on May 19. Dan Anderson for NBC News
“We don’t have any program that resembles this,” Arrieta said and referred a reporter to the company’s fraud alert page.
Michael J. Clark, a former FBI agent who teaches criminal justice at the University of New Haven, said it’s likely many of the victims have not yet figured out they’ve been conned.
“If this is indeed a scam, the victims have not had enough time to realize they have been scammed as they will be awaiting the result of the 2024 presidential elections to receive the benefit of their initial outlay of money,” Clark said via email.
How it spreads
Fawning reviews are posted on dozens of websites with the headlines “SCAM OR LEGIT” that can stack Google with positive results and in hundreds of YouTube videos.
In AI-generated promotional videos shared on social media and in chat groups, celebrities and politicians, including Trump, appear to endorse the scam.
In one, Trump appears to announce the launch of the TRB system on Fox News.
“Let’s make America wealthy again,” the artificially generated voice of Trump says.
In another, Twitter-owner Elon Musk appears to say “That Trump certificate is not a joke, it’s real. Everyone needs to get as many as they can. I spend one million dollars on Trump certificates and this week I’m going to cash out my Trump items. Soon I will be the richest person on the planet again.”
In reality, the advertisement features footage lifted from Musk’s appearance at a TED event in 2022. The video ends with a slide advertising a free app that promises to “make your favorite celebrity say anything.
It’s so pervasive that even pro-Trump websites and Trump supporters have been sounding the alarm.
Blogger Noah Christopher, who is the moderator of the “WeLoveTrump” Telegram group with 26,000 subscribers, has urged his followers more than 30 times this year alone to “not get conned.”
“The faked videos have been posted relentlessly by fake social media accounts on Facebook, TikTok, and in Telegram groups catering to devoted Trump supporters,” Noah wrote last month. “Unreal how pervasive and aggressive this scam is.”
Christopher did not respond to an email from NBC News seeking additional comment.
One 75-year-old Alabama grandmother, who consented to having her picture taken but asked not to be identified by name for fear of internet harassment, told NBC News the message she got from watching the pitches on the internet was that Trump was going to make her rich.
But the grandmother, who describes herself as a “real patriot,” said what she got for the $1,500 she invested in Trump Bucks turned out to be fool’s gold.
An Alabama grandmother said a Bank of America teller told her that she'd seen dozens of people coming in to cash the products. Dan Anderson for NBC News
“I saw all these ads on Telegram that had Trump pushing coins and checks that he endorsed and how you can cash them in after a year and make a profit,” the grandmother, who lives in Mobile, told NBC News. “I was told how you can go to Bank of America or Target or Amazon to cash them in.”
About six months ago, the grandmother said, she gathered up the Trump Bucks and commemorative coins she had purchased and drove 60 miles east to the nearest Bank of America branch she could find in Pensacola, Florida.
There, she said, she was greeted by a teller who told her she’d been scammed.
“When we get there the lady tells me she’s seen dozens of people coming in to cash these checks and they have nothing to do with this,” the grandmother said.
A Florida woman who lives north of Tampa, and who also asked not to be identified by name because she fears internet harassment, said her 77-year-old mother-in-law was also fooled into investing tens of thousands of dollars in Trump Bucks.
“My mother-in-law has always been conservative and prone to believe in conspiracy theories,” she said. “But after Trump lost the election, she went down the internet rabbit hole with this.”
This isn’t the first time her mother-in-law has fallen prey to a Trump-inspired scam.
“Several years back, she got into Nesara, which says that a radical reset of the U.S. economy is coming and all debts are going to be wiped out,” the Florida woman said. “She thinks she’s getting all the money back and that she’ll make a huge profit too.”
First, the Florida woman said, her mother-in-law “started buying all this support Trump memorabilia from a website that clearly states it's memorabilia.”
Patriots Dynasty, Patriots Future and USA Patriots claim purchasers will be able to cash in coins and checks like these at major banks and retailers like Walmart, Costco and Home Depot. Dan Anderson for NBC News
“From there, she went to other sites which has all sorts of people claiming that if you buy these Trump coins or these Trump checks for, say, a hundred dollars, you’ll be able to take them to a bank and cash them in for thousands of dollars.”
To prove to her mother-in-law that she had been swindled, the Florida woman said she drove her to a nearby bank and urged her to try to redeem the Trump Bucks in her possession.
“We thought she got it, she even admitted she got scammed,” the Florida woman said. “But then giant boxes arrived at the house full of Trump checks and other stuff that she bought for $500 and that would supposedly be worth $6 million one day. We tell her she’s getting scammed and she says, ‘Just wait, Trump will make all the patriots rich.’”
“It’s like she’s in a cult,” the Florida woman said.
Who profits?Good question. It’s not clear who concocted the TRB system scheme or created the fake promotional videos.
A 2022 New York Times investigation reported a Romanian marketing company to be at the origin of so-called Trump coins — which had been wildly popular in 2022 and were also fraudulently marketed as a kind of alternative currency.
Most of the posts and videos for the TRB system currently link to websites registered with the company names Patriots Dynasty, Patriots Future and USA Patriots, whose listed address can be traced to Shipoffers.com, a shipping center in Aurora, Colorado.
Shipoffers warehouse manager Josh Pier said the center ships Trump-related products but said it doesn't manufacture them. He declined to discuss what those products are and would not confirm the names of the companies it ships for. The company handles shipping for a variety of companies, he said.
Pier was echoed by Tony Grebmeier, one of the Shipoffers owners, who said he was unaware of any problems with any of the products the company ships and said if he was aware of any issues he’d take care of them.
Responding to overwhelmingly negative Google reviews, Shipoffers tells unhappy buyers that it doesn't actually make the products or bill customers.
The TRB products are purchased through online retailers ClickBank and Digistore24, which are affiliate marketing networks based in Idaho and Florida that connect would-be promoters with products to sell and earn commissions.
The unique links posted across social media and in the captions of YouTube videos contain the usernames of these affiliate marketers, who get a cut from each sale generated by the fraudulent ads.
A list of URLS for just one website, shows hundreds of affiliate marketers associated with a TRB membership booklet, a product falsely marketed as necessary to redeem the TRB products for real money.
NBC News has also reached out to ClickBank, Digistore24 and ShipOffers for comment. When an NBC News reporter called the Patriots Dynasty phone number, she got a busy signal. There was also no response to an email sent to the address associated with Patriots Dynasty.
The Alabama grandmother said she initially thought the products were a good investment but realized later they were worthless. Dan Anderson for NBC News
The Alabama grandmother says she was initially fooled by the AI version of Trump she saw in the ads. She trusted Trump’s supposed business acumen and thought this was a good investment to have something to leave behind for her children.
“Now I realize, well, that was stupid,” she said. “But I bought them because I believed President Trump, because he knows all about finance, and he was going to help the real Trump Patriots get rich.”
Brandy Zadrozny is a senior reporter for NBC News. She covers misinformation, extremism and the internet.
Corky Siemaszko is a senior reporter for NBC News Digital.
Jack Smith holds PRESS CONFERENCE on Trump INDICTMENT by Ben Meiselas and Karen Agnifilo MeidasTouch Jun 9, 2023
Special Counsel Jack Smith held his first press conference since Donald Trump was criminally indicted in federal court in Florida.
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch Network we are just moments away from special counsel Jack Smith delivering a press conference after Donald Trump has been criminally indicted in federal court in the southern district of Florida that indictment has just been unsealed I of course want to break down everything that's in that indictment with my co-host from legal AF Karen Friedman agnifolo who joins us here as well and uh Karen first I'm getting word that special counsel Jack Smith is about to give the press conference let's play the press conference of special counsel Jack Smith and then let's uh respond to that and then let's go through the indictment let's go to the press conference good afternoon today an indictment was unsealed charging Donald J Trump with felony violations of our national security laws as well as participating in a conspiracy to obstruct Justice this indictment was voted by a grand jury of citizens in the southern district of Florida and I invite everyone to read it in full to understand the scope and the gravity of the crimes charged the men and women of the United States intelligence community and our Armed Forces dedicate their lives to protecting our nation and its people are laws that protect National Defense information are critical to the Safety and Security of the United States and they must be enforced violations of those laws put our country at risk adherence to the rule of law is a Bedrock principle of the Department of Justice and our nation's commitment to the rule of law sets an example for the world we have one set of laws in this country and they apply to everyone applying those laws collecting facts that's what determines the outcome of an investigation nothing more and nothing less the prosecutors in my office are among the most talented and experienced in the Department of Justice they have investigated this case hewing to the highest ethical standards and they will continue to do so as this case proceeds it's very important for me to note that the defendants in this case must be presumed innocent until proven guilty Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in a court of law to that end my office will seek a speedy trial in this matter consistent with a public interest and the rights of the accused we very much look forward to presenting our case to a jury of citizens in the southern district of Florida there you have it and uh special counsel Jack Smith concluded his speech right there walked off did not take any further questions so there's nothing else that we miss that's the entire press conference that's bringing Karen Friedman agnifolo co-host of legal AF CNN correspondent Karen used to be of course the number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's office and has provided incredible legal analysis here on the Midas touch Network Karen Friedman agnifolo what's your response to that press conference before getting into the recently unsealed indictment yeah Jack Smith I think really felt like he had to explain to the American people what happened here and what's going on you know I think that if you recall with the Alvin Bragg case we knew that he was indicted because his K because he was surrendered uh he was given a surrender date I'm sorry and so we knew that there was a date he was going to come in and then he because the indictment was sealed he then managed to tell the narrative and and give his version of things and really spin the story so by the time he was by the time he was arraigned there he had the I think he had the upper hand in terms of The Narrative of the story of the Alvin Brad case Well Jack Smith clearly learned from that and wasn't going to give Donald Trump uh the weekend to do all his tweeting and his threatening and his bullying and going on Fox News and and you know saying all the things that he will definitely say okay and instead went to a judge and had this indictment unsealed and released it and his press conference was Jack Smith control and what it is and what it is and he urged people to read this indictment he specifically said that and I urge people to read this indictment it is not like Alvin Bragg's indictment that is a Bare Bones legal indictment which is typical of most indictments this is what they call a talking indictment or a speaking indictment and it tells a story and Jack Smith told a story here and he urged people to come read the indictment he thanked the people who worked on the case and he said this isn't about politics this is about one set of laws that applies to everyone it applies to everyone in this country and what we do is we apply the law the facts to the law nothing more nothing less they adhere to high ethical standards they will continue to do so he also reminded everybody that defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty and he also I think when he said we will to that and we will seek a speedy trial I think what he's trying to signal is he recognizes there's an election coming up and he wants to to get this done quickly so that's what the statement spoke volumes to me and I think that's the purpose behind the indictment he has to get out in front of Donald Trump who will go and try and make this you know his own sideshow it was a very short but powerful Press Conference held by special counsel Jack Smith of course it was the first time that we've heard from special counsel Jack Smith is the first time we've heard his voice and to your point he emphasized he wants to pursue a speedy trial at his office is adhering to the highest ethical standards he mentioned the fact that this is National Defense information and the seriousness and the gravity of the crimes being charged for someone who mishandles that and treats the National Security of our country uh in such abhorrent ways and then special counsel Jack Smith invited everybody to read this unsealed indictment in full let's talk about this unsealed indictment uh this indictment was announced on Thursday we got word about it of course we reported about it here on the Midas touch Network we knew there were going to be a number of charges including Espionage Act violations which is the willful retention of National Defense information we knew there was a conspiracy count obstruction of justice but we now have this full unsealed indictment it is very detailed it has a very detailed narrative component there are 38 separate counts uh in this case both Donald Trump and uh his personal aide who was a valet When Donald Trump was in the White House Walt now to then a personal aide after Donald Trump left the white house uh is also a criminal defendant in this case and then of course there's just a lot of detailed text messages that were sent from Walt now to others including Donald Trump's family members talking about moving the boxes messages from Walt now to other employees he's talking about Donald Trump moving the boxes and then of course there are photographs of these boxes that include highly classified information so there are boxes in a storage room in a Auditorium room there are boxes that are in a bathroom and you see classified documents that are just like on the floor in a uh in a shower and those are in this uh indictment so Karen what were your main takeaways from this indictment that was just unsealed so again I I like Jack Smith I urge everybody to read this indictment it really does tell a powerful compelling story of why this is a righteous prosecution and why this isn't just a situation of well everybody does it and you know they found them at Biden's house and they find classified documents at Pence's house and it's an accident and you know and thankfully in his CNN Town Hall he took that it was an accident uh defense off the table when he said I I could possess it you know there's nothing wrong with me possessing it and and so he underscored the willfulness in his own words but what what Jack Smith uh and the Department of Justice did in this indictment is they really just explained uh to everybody what is in there and why this is an important case and why this affects our national security our military our foreign allies our foreign enemies and how he really possessed all of these documents that were you know he Jack Smith talked about the different classification levels he spelled it out so that none of us had to guess right some people might not know what's is top secret more is that worse than classified he spelled all all the levels and he described them he even talked about certain levels of class classification that I have never heard before one was called No foreign or something that meant no foreign government you know people should be able to have access to this and he spelled out all the classification levels and and the briefings that Donald Trump would get and then he went on to describe in painstaking details scale the efforts that the Department of Justice made to to get these documents and then the uh the criminal efforts that Donald Trump with others including Walt nada did to conceal them that and they puts the dates out there of you know on this date we asked for something and then two weeks later waltonatta moves the document the boxes of documents so that when we go search it you know it's not it's not there and you know he just goes through it in in detail um there was and and so they really just build a case I mean in some ways it's like it's like the opening statement of of the trial is really this indictment you know they're going to talk about it who who's Donald Trump who's Walt natto what do they do who are these documents what do they mean what is the classification system who's allowed to have them who's not what are the facts that shows that Donald Trump knew that he wasn't supposed to do this and they talk about statements that Donald Trump made during his campaign and while he was president and so that he knew that you have to be careful and that these are things that you know are needed to protect the nation and then Jack Smith Goes On To You Know describe with photos and and and uh evidence um evidentiary photos in there of that that's a box of documents of top secret documents that Spilled Out and Walt NADA took a picture of it and texted it saying you know there's there's top secret uh documents in here and this is a room that is often unlocked there are people who come in and out of there and you know there's another another one uh in his bathroom right so in his shower in his bathroom those had had top secret documents and then there was a ballroom on a stage which I found stunning that they said they were classified in top secret National Security documents in there and there were thousands of people who came in and out of there I mean it's on Mar-A-Lago itself isn't considered a secure place to have these documents you know these these documents some of them are are only allowed to be looked at in something called a skiff which stands for I don't even remember what it stands for um instead of department and information facility thank you there you go and and Mar-A-Lago is not a skiff you know so you the the fact that he had these documents that anyone could get to people went in and out it just really and and that he didn't do it unintentionally he did it intentionally he knew he did it and they talked about those that recording that we've heard about uh in Bedminster New Jersey where he was was waving around um some kind of paper talking to somebody in a in the in the mark Meadows um uh autobiography you know he was he was showing off that he had talked secret information going oh but I'm not supposed to show this to you you know and whatever like so Jack Smith even puts that in the indictment to show that um you know that Trump knew what he was doing so I just think it's stunning it's dangerous he's he's a uh he's a danger to to the world frankly I mean there were nuclear codes of of a foreign country I think it was I think you were you were reading it earlier um when we were talking about it count five you know he had the nuclear codes of a foreign country and I mean it's just crazy you know the military capabilities and attack plans I mean the guy is just dangerous and so this was this was a willful retention of information related to the National Defense and that's what this was um you know I think it's a very righteous prosecution and Jack Smith made the case in this indictment to show that this was a a righteous prosecution yeah and I want to let's focus on just a few more portions of this indictment that was unsealed you go to page 44 you see that it was signed by the four person um this you know this was uh not special counsel Jack Smith just doing this on his own this was not President Biden right this was the Department of Justice that appointed a special counsel the special counsel presented to a grand jury and a grand jury is who ultimately voted to indict Donald Trump uh the evidence against Donald Trump went before a jury a grand jury of Donald Trump's peers turning to uh paragraph three of this unsealed indictment on page two it talks about how the classified documents Trump stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries United States nuclear programs potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put out risk the National Security of the United States far relations the safety of the United States military and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods you go to paragraph six it talks about two specific occasions where there is actually recordings and documented proof where Donald Trump was just showing classified information and sensitive compartmented information to just like random people um in paragraph 6A it talks about how Donald Trump was showing uh information about plans regarding a military attack involving Iran uh to uh to a ghost writers who were writing Mark Meadows uh book and then in 6B it talks about Donald Trump showing a military map involving classified military operations to someone affiliated with his political action organization the uh unsealed indictment goes on to show those photographs that we put up earlier where these documents were being being kept at Mar-A-Lago how they were just kind of on the floor you see from this image that we're showing right now you can actually see the classified border on the documents on the bottom right by the box that's how it was just being kept and again this is highly highly sensitive information there's this photograph of classified information being kept in a bathroom the com the unsealed indictment details uh how Walt nauta and Donald Trump would try to move these documents to different locations board them on airplanes bring them to Bedminster and then just one example of these text messages there's a ton of examples of text messages here that shows how uh special counsel Jack Smith got a lot of this information about these documents being moved but you go to page 22 and page 23 and it talks about uh here let's go to page 23 uh and this is from paragraph 58c and it says on May 30th 2022 at 12 33 PM a trump family member texted nauta good afternoon Walt happy Memorial Day I saw you put boxes to POTUS room just FYI and I will tell him as well not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the plane we will not have room for them plane will be full of luggage thank you and now to reply good afternoon ma'am smiley face emoji thank you so much I think he wanted to pick from them I don't imagine him wanting to take the boxes he told me to put them in the room and that he was going to talk to you about them there's countless other examples like this but his picking from the boxes to take classified information with him from different locations and we're even hearing from people in Trump's orbit someone like a lawyer by the name of Jonathan Turley who's like the right wing kind of Spin Master who always talks about the doj's politicized and all of these things even he's saying when he went on Fox that this was incredibly damaging to Donald Trump and this is a very serious indictment and very very very damaging final words Karen Friedman eggniffilo about the press conference and everything we're seeing yeah so I indictment it was red was written it wasn't written for lawyers and and judges and I think it really is important to to to read it everybody to know it to be able to fight back when people say but everybody does it when his supporters say that and I just think uh there's going to be a lot more to come here you know that's going that we're going to see but the allegations are obviously very very strong and it's a I think it's great work that was done by Jack Smith and his people and people like Evan Corcoran his his lawyer you know the notes that he took it's very clear that that was a road map for Jack Smith to to know that Donald to show Donald Trump's state of mind that he was intimately involved in the packing and the moving of these boxes and of these documents that he knew what he had and that this was a willful intentional obstruction of justice thank you very much Karen Friedman agnifolo thank you everybody who's watching this and we will of course keep you posted as we learn more we will do analysis on other aspects of this indictment we'll do uh analysis of what we expect to happen next and of course any breaking news we will bring to you here on the Midas touch Network thank you for watching hit subscribe on the YouTube channel And subscribe to the legal AF podcast and don't forget to uh watch legal AF live tomorrow at 5 Pacific 8 Eastern uh we could watch that on Saturday five Pacific 8 Eastern have a great day and hit subscribe
[First] Indictment USDC, Southern District of Florida United States of America v. Donald J. Trump and Waltine Nauta Case No. 23-80101-CR-Cannon/Reinhart by Jack Smith, Special Counsel 6/8/23
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA, Defendants.
INDICTMENT
The Grand Jury charges that:
GENERAL ALLEGATIONS
At times material to this Indictment, on or about the dates and approximate times stated below:
Introduction
1. Defendant DONALD J. TRUMP was the forty-fifth President of the United States of America. He held office from January 20, 2017, until January 20, 2021. As president, TRUMP had lawful access to the most sensitive classified documents and national defense information gathered and owned by the United States government, including information from the agencies that comprise the United States Intelligence Community and the United States Department of Defense.
2. Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents.
3. The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military, and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.
4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.
5. The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP's presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club-including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.
6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others, as follows:
a. In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey ("The Bedminster Club"), during an audio-recorded meeting with a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a "plan of attack" that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was "highly confidential" and "secret." TRUMP also said, "as president I could have declassified it," and, "Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret."
b. In August or September 2021, at The Bedminster Club, TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.
7. On March 30, 2022, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI") opened a criminal investigation into the unlawful retention of classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club. A federal grand jury investigation began the next month. The grand jury issued a subpoena requiring TRUMP to turn over all documents with classification markings. TRUMP endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal his continued retention of classified documents by, among other things:
a. suggesting that his attorney falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
b. directing defendant WALTINE NAUTA to move boxes of documents to conceal them from TRUMP's attorney, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that his attorney hide or destroy documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the grand jury subpoena, while claiming that he was cooperating fully; and
e. causing a certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury falsely representing that all documents called for by the grand jury subpoena had been produced-while knowing that, in fact, not all such documents had been produced.
8. As a result of TRUMP's retention of classified documents after his presidency and refusal to return them, hundreds of classified documents were not recovered by the United States government until 2022, as follows:
a. On January 17, nearly one year after TRUMP left office, and after months of demands by the National Archives and Records Administration for TRUMP to provide all missing presidential records, TRUMP provided only 15 boxes, which contained 197 documents with classification markings.
b. On June 3, in response to a grand jury subpoena demanding the production of all documents with classification markings, TRUMP's attorney provided to the FBI 38 more documents with classification markings.
c. On August 8, pursuant to a court-authorized search warrant, the FBI recovered from TRUMP's office and a storage room at The Mar-a-Lago Club 102 more documents with classification markings.
TRUMP's Co-Conspirator
9. Defendant NAUTA was a member of the United States Navy stationed as a valet in the White House during TRUMP's presidency. Beginning in August 2021, NAUTA became an executive assistant in The Office of Donald J. Trump and served as TRUMP's personal aide or "body man." NAUTA reported to TRUMP, worked closely with TRUMP, and traveled with TRUMP.
The Mar-a-Lago Club
10. The Mar-a-Lago Club was located on South Ocean Boulevard in Palm Beach, Florida, and included TRUMP's residence, more than 25 guest rooms, two ballrooms, a spa, a gift store, exercise facilities, office space, and an outdoor pool and patio. As of January 2021, The Mar-a-Lago Club had hundreds of members and was staffed by more than 150 full-time, part-time, and temporary employees.
11. Between January 2021 and August 2022, The Mar-a-Lago Club hosted more than 150 social events, including weddings, movie premieres, and fundraisers that together drew tens of thousands of guests.
12. The United States Secret Service (the "Secret Service") provided protection services to TRUMP and his family after he left office, including at The Mar-a-Lago Club, but it was not responsible for the protection of TRUMP's boxes or their contents. TRUMP did not inform the Secret Service that he was storing boxes containing classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
Classified Information
13. National security information was information owned by, produced by, produced for, and under the control of the United States government. Pursuant to Executive Order 12958, signed on April 17, 1995, as amended by Executive Order 13292 on March 25, 2003, and Executive Order 13526 on December 29, 2009, national security information was classified as "TOP SECRET," "SECRET," or "CONFIDENTIAL," as follows:
a. Information was classified as TOP SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
b. Information was classified as SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
c. Information was classified as CONFIDENTIAL if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
14. The classification marking "NOFORN" stood for "Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals" and denoted that dissemination of that information was limited to United States persons.
15. Classified information related to intelligence sources, methods, and analytical processes was designated as Sensitive Compartmented Information ("SCI"). SCI was to be processed, stored, used, or discussed in an accredited Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility ("SCIF"), and only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SCI permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information.
16. When the vulnerability of, or threat to, specific classified information was exceptional, and the normal criteria for determining eligibility for access to classified information were insufficient to protect the information from unauthorized disclosure, the United States could establish Special Access Programs ("SAPs") to further protect the classified information. The number of these programs was to be kept to an absolute minimum and limited to programs in which the number of persons who ordinarily would have access would be reasonably small and commensurate with the objective of providing enhanced protection for the information involved. Only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SAP permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information, which was subject to enhanced handling and storage requirements.
17. Pursuant to Executive Order 13526, information classified at any level could be lawfully accessed only by persons determined by an appropriate United States government official to be eligible for access to classified information and who had signed an approved non-disclosure agreement, who received a security clearance, and who had a "need-to-know" the classified information. After his presidency, TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain classified documents.
18. Executive Order 13526 provided that a former president could obtain a waiver of the "need-to-know" requirement, if the agency head or senior agency official of the agency that originated the classified information: (1) determined in writing that access was consistent with the interest of national security and (2) took appropriate steps to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure or compromise and ensured that the information was safeguarded in a manner consistent with the order. TRUMP did not obtain any such waiver after his presidency.
The Executive Branch Departments and Agencies Whose Classified Documents TRUMP Retained After His Presidency
19. As part of his official duties as president, TRUMP received intelligence briefings from high-level United States government officials, including briefings from the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, senior White House officials, and a designated briefer. He regularly received a collection of classified intelligence from the United States Intelligence Community ("USIC") known as the "President's Daily Brief."
20. The USIC's mission was to collect, analyze, and deliver foreign intelligence and counterintelligence information to America's leaders, including the president, policymakers, law enforcement, and the military, so they could make sound decisions to protect the United States. The USIC consisted of United States executive branch departments and agencies responsible for the conduct of foreign relations and the protection of national security.
21. After his presidency, TRUMP retained classified documents originated by, or implicating the equities of, multiple USIC members and other executive branch departments and agencies, including the following:
a. The Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA"). CIA was responsible for providing intelligence on foreign countries and global issues to the president and other policymakers to help them make national security decisions.
b. The Department of Defense ("DoD"). DoD was responsible for providing the military forces needed to deter war and ensure national security. Some of the executive branch agencies comprising the USIC were within DoD.
c. The National Security Agency. The National Security Agency was a combat support agency within DoD and a member of the USIC responsible for foreign signals intelligence and cybersecurity. This included collecting, processing, and disseminating to United States policymakers and military leaders foreign intelligence derived from communications and information systems; protecting national security systems; and enabling computer network operations.
d. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency was a combat support agency within DoD responsible for the exploitation and analysis of imagery, imagery intelligence, and geospatial information in support of the national security objectives of the United States and the geospatial intelligence requirements of DoD, the Department of State, and other federal agencies.
e. The National Reconnaissance Office. The National Reconnaissance Office was an agency within DoD responsible for developing, acquiring, launching, and operating space-based surveillance and reconnaissance systems that collected and delivered intelligence to enhance national security.
f. The Department of Energy. The Department of Energy was responsible for maintaining a safe, secure, and effective nuclear deterrent to protect national security, including ensuring the effectiveness of the United States nuclear weapons stockpile without nuclear explosive testing.
g. The Department of State and Bureau of Intelligence and Research. The Department of State was responsible for protecting and promoting United States security, prosperity, and democratic values. Within the Department of State, the Bureau of Intelligence and Research was a member of the USIC and responsible for providing intelligence to inform diplomacy and support United States diplomats.
TRUMP's Public Statements on Classified Information
22. As a candidate for President of the United States, TRUMP made the following public statements, among others, about classified information:
a. On August 18, 2016, TRUMP stated, "In my administration I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law."
b. On September 6, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need to fight this battle by collecting intelligence and then protecting, protecting our classified secrets. ... We can't have someone in the Oval Office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified."
c. On September 7, 2016, TRUMP stated, "[O]ne of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information."
d. On September 19, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need the best protection of classified information."
e. On November 3, 2016, TRUMP stated, "Service members here in North Carolina have risked their lives to acquire classified intelligence to protect our country."
23. As President of the United States, on July 26, 2018, TRUMP issued the following statement about classified information:
As the head of the executive branch and Commander in Chief, I have a unique, Constitutional responsibility to protect the Nation's classified information, including by controlling access to it. ... More broadly, the issue of [a former executive branch official's] security clearance raises larger questions about the practice of former officials maintaining access to our Nation's most sensitive secrets long after their time in Government has ended. Such access is particularly inappropriate when former officials have transitioned into highly partisan positions and seek to use real or perceived access to sensitive information to validate their political attacks. Any access granted to our Nation's secrets should be in furtherance of national, not personal, interests.
TRUMP's Retention of Classified Documents After His Presidency
24. In January 2021, as he was preparing to leave the White House, TRUMP and his White House staff, including NAUTA, packed items, including some of TRUMP's boxes. TRUMP was personally involved in this process. TRUMP caused his boxes, containing hundreds of classified documents, to be transported from the White House to The Mar-a-Lago Club.
25. From January through March 15, 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were stored in The Mar-a-Lago Club's White and Gold Ballroom, in which events and gatherings took place. TRUMP's boxes were for a time stacked on the ballroom's stage, as depicted in the photograph below (redacted to obscure an individual's identity).
26. In March 2021, NAUTA and others moved some of TRUMP's boxes from the White and Gold Ballroom to the business center at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
27. On April 5, 2021, an employee of The Office of Donald J. Trump ("Trump Employee 1") texted another employee of that office ("Trump Employee 2") to ask whether TRUMP's boxes could be moved out of the business center to make room for staff to use it as an office. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Woah! Ok so potus specifically asked Walt for those boxes to be in the business center because they are his 'papers.'" Later that day, Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2 exchanged the following text messages:
Trump Employee 2:
We can definitely make it work if we move his papers into the lake room?
Trump Employee 1:
There is still a little room in the shower where his other stuff is. Is it only his papers he cares about? Theres some other stuff in there that are not papers. Could that go to storage? Or does he want everything in there on property
Trump Employee 2:
Yes - anything that's not the beautiful mind [movie: A Beautiful Mind, directed by Ron Howard] paper boxes can definitely go to storage. Want to take a look at the space and start moving tomorrow AM?
28. After the text exchange between Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2, in April 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were moved from the business center to a bathroom and shower in The Mar-a-Lago Club's Lake Room, as depicted in the photograph below.
29. In May 2021, TRUMP directed that a storage room on the ground floor of The Mar-a-Lago Club (the "Storage Room") be cleaned out so that it could be used to store his boxes. The hallway leading to the Storage Room could be reached from multiple outside entrances, including one accessible from The Mar-a-Lago Club pool patio through a doorway that was often kept open. The Storage Room was near the liquor supply closet, linen room, lock shop, and various other rooms.
30. On June 24, 2021, TRUMP's boxes that were in the Lake Room were moved to the Storage Room. After the move, there were more than 80 boxes in the Storage Room, as depicted in the photographs below.
31. On December 7, 2021, NAUTA found several of TRUMP's boxes fallen and their contents spilled onto the floor of the Storage Room, including a document marked "SECRET/REL TO USA, FVEY," which denoted that the information in the document was releasable only to the Five Eyes intelligence alliance consisting of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2, "I opened the door and found this ... " NAUTA also attached two photographs he took of the spill. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Oh no oh no," and "I'm sorry potus had my phone." One of the photographs NAUTA texted to Trump Employee 2 is depicted below with the visible classified information redacted. TRUMP's unlawful retention of this document is charged in Count 8 of this Indictment.
TRUMP's Disclosures of Classified Information in Private Meetings
32. In May 2021, TRUMP caused some of his boxes to be brought to his summer residence at The Bedminster Club. Like The Mar-a-Lago Club, after TRUMP's presidency, The Bedminster Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents.
33. On July 21, 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP gave an interview in his office at The Bedminster Club to a writer and a publisher in connection with a then-forthcoming book. Two members of TRUMP's staff also attended the interview, which was recorded with TRUMP's knowledge and consent. Before the interview, the media had published reports that, at the end of TRUMP's term as president, a senior military official (the "Senior Military Official") purportedly feared that TRUMP might order an attack on Country A and that the Senior Military Official advised TRUMP against doing so.
34. Upon greeting the writer, publisher, and his two staff members, TRUMP stated, "Look what I found, this was [the Senior Military Official's] plan of attack, read it and just show ... it's interesting." Later in the interview, TRUMP engaged in the following exchange:
TRUMP: Well, with [the Senior Military Official] -- uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack [Country A]. Isn't it amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They presented me this -- this is off the record, but -- they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him.
WRITER: Wow.
TRUMP: We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him. All sorts of stuff -- pages long, look.
STAFFER: Mm.
TRUMP: Wait a minute, let's see here.
STAFFER: [Laughter] Yeah.
TRUMP: I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know.
STAFFER: Mm-hm.
TRUMP: Except it is like, highly confidential.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]
TRUMP: Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. You attack, and --
* * *
TRUMP: By the way. Isn't that incredible?
STAFFER: Yeah.
TRUMP: I was just thinking, because we were talking about it. And you know, he said, "he wanted to attack [Country A], and what ... "
STAFFER: You did.
TRUMP: This was done by the military and given to me. Uh, I think we can probably, right?
STAFFER: I don't know, we'll, we'll have to see. Yeah, we'll have to try to --
TRUMP: Declassify it.
STAFFER: -- figure out a -- yeah.
TRUMP: See as president I could have declassified it.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]
TRUMP: Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter] Now we have a problem.
TRUMP: Isn't that interesting?
At the time of this exchange, the writer, the publisher, and TRUMP's two staff members did not have security clearances or any need-to-know any classified information about a plan of attack on Country A.
35. In August or September 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP met in his office at The Bedminster Club with a representative of his political action committee (the "PAC Representative"). During the meeting, TRUMP commented that an ongoing military operation in Country B was not going well. TRUMP showed the PAC Representative a classified map of Country B and told the PAC Representative that he should not be showing the map to the PAC Representative and to not get too close. The PAC Representative did not have a security clearance or any need-to-know classified information about the military operation.
36. On February 16, 2017, four years before TRUMP's disclosures of classified information set forth above, TRUMP said at a press conference:
The first thing I thought of when I heard about it is, how does the press get this information that's classified? How do they do it? You know why? Because it's an illegal process, and the press should be ashamed of themselves. But more importantly, the people that gave out the information to the press should be ashamed of themselves. Really ashamed.
TRUMP's Production of 15 Cardboard Boxes to the National Archives and Records Administration
37. Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA"), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, beginning in June, NARA warned TRUMP through his representatives that if he did not comply, it would refer the matter of the missing records to the Department of Justice.
38. Between November 2021 and January 2022, NAUTA and Trump Employee 2 -- at TRUMP's direction -- brought boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence for TRUMP to review.
39. On November 12,2021, Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP a photograph of his boxes in the Storage Room by taping it to one of the boxes that Trump Employee 2 had placed in TRUMP's residence. Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP the photograph so that TRUMP could see how many of his boxes were stored in the Storage Room. The photograph, shown below, depicted a wall of the Storage Room against which dozens of TRUMP's boxes were stacked.
40. On November 17, 2021, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about the photograph Trump Employee 2 had provided to TRUMP, stating, "He mentioned about a picture of the 'boxes' he wants me to see it?" Trump Employee 2 replied, "Calling you shortly."
41. On November 25, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA about TRUMP's review of the contents of his boxes, asking, "Has he mentioned boxes to you? I delivered some, but I think he may need more. Could you ask if he'd like more in pine hall?" Pine Hall was an entry room in TRUMP's residence. NAUTA replied in three successive text messages:
Nothing about boxes yet He has one he's working on in pine hall Knocked out 2 boxes yesterday
42. On November 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA, asking, "Next you are on property (no rush) could you help me bring 4 more boxes up?" NAUTA replied, "Yes!! Of course."
43. On December 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted a TRUMP representative who was in contact with NARA ("Trump Representative 1"), "box answer will be wrenched out of him today, promise!" The next day, Trump Representative 1 replied in two successive text messages:
Hey - Just checking on Boxes ... would love to have a number to them today
Trump Employee 2 spoke to TRUMP and then responded a few hours later in two successive text messages:
12 Is his number
44. On January 13, 2022, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about TRUMP's "tracking" of boxes, stating, "He's tracking the boxes, more to follow today on whether he wants to go through more today or tomorrow." Trump Employee 2 replied, "Thank you!"
45. On January 15, 2022, NAUTA sent Trump Employee 2 four successive text messages:
One thing he asked Was for new covers for the boxes, for Monday m. Morning *can we get new box covers before giving these to them on Monday? They have too much writing on them..I marked too much
Trump Employee 2 replied, "Yes, I will get that!"
46. On January 17, 2022, Trump Employee 2 and NAUTA gathered 15 boxes from TRUMP's residence, loaded the boxes in NAUTA's car, and took them to a commercial truck for delivery to NARA.
47. When interviewed by the FBI in May 2022 regarding the location and movement of boxes before the production to NARA, NAUTA made false and misleading statements as set forth in Count 38 of this Indictment, including:
a. falsely stating that he was not aware of TRUMP's boxes being brought to TRUMP's residence for his review before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA in January 2022;
b. falsely stating that he did not know how the boxes that he and Trump Employee 2 brought from TRUMP's residence to the commercial truck for delivery to NARA on January 17, 2022, had gotten to the residence; and
c. when asked whether he knew where TRUMP's boxes had been stored before they were in TRUMP's residence and whether they had been in a secure or locked location, NAUTA falsely responded, "I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don't know. I don't -- I honestly just don't know."
48. When the 15 boxes that TRUMP had provided reached NARA in January 2022, NARA reviewed the contents and determined that 14 of the boxes contained documents with classification markings. Specifically, as the FBI later determined, the boxes contained 197 documents with classification markings, of which 98 were marked "SECRET," 30 were marked "TOP SECRET," and the remainder were marked "CONFIDENTIAL." Some of those documents also contained SCI and SAP markings.
49. On February 9, 2022, NARA referred the discovery of classified documents in TRUMP's boxes to the Department of Justice for investigation.
The FBI and Grand Jury Investigations
50. On March 30, 2022, the FBI opened a criminal investigation.
51. On April 26, 2022, a federal grand jury opened an investigation.
The Defendants' Concealment of Boxes
52. On May 11, 2022, the grand jury issued a subpoena (the "May 11 Subpoena") to The Office of Donald J. Trump requiring the production of all documents with classification markings in the possession, custody, or control of TRUMP or The Office of Donald J. Trump. Two attorneys representing TRUMP ("Trump Attorney 1" [Matthew Evan Corcoran?] and "Trump Attorney 2" [Lindsey R. Halligan?]) informed TRUMP of the May 11 Subpoena, and he authorized Trump Attorney 1 to accept service.
53. On May 22, 2022, NAUTA entered the Storage Room at 3:47 p.m. and left approximately 34 minutes later, carrying one of TRUMP's boxes.
54. On May 23, 2022, TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 at The Mar-a-Lago Club to discuss the response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 told TRUMP that they needed to search for documents that would be responsive to the subpoena and provide a certification that there had been compliance with the subpoena. TRUMP, in sum and substance, made the following statements, among others, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
a. I don't want anybody looking, I don't want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don't, I don't want you looking through my boxes.
b. Well what if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them?
c. Wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything here?
d. Well look isn't it better if there are no documents?
55. While meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP, in sum and substance, told the following story, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
[Attorney], he was great, he did a great job. You know what? He said, he said that it -- that it was him. That he was the one who deleted all of her emails, the 30,000 emails, because they basically dealt with her scheduling and her going to the gym and her having beauty appointments. And he was great. And he, so she didn't get in any trouble because he said that he was the one who deleted them.
TRUMP related the story more than once that day.
56. On May 23, TRUMP also confirmed his understanding with Trump Attorney 1 that Trump Attorney 1 would return to The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2 to search for any documents with classification markings to produce in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 made it clear to TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 would conduct the search for responsive documents by looking through TRUMP's boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club. TRUMP indicated that he wanted to be at The Mar-a-Lago Club when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review his boxes on June 2, and that TRUMP would change his summer travel plans to do so. TRUMP told Trump Attorney 2 that Trump Attorney 2 did not need to be present for the review of boxes.
57. After meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club to The Bedminster Club for the summer so that he would be present at The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review the boxes.
58. Between TRUMP's May 23 meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 to discuss the May 11 Subpoena, and June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to The Mar-a-Lago Club to review the boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA removed -- at TRUMP's direction -- a total of approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room and brought them to TRUMP's residence, as set forth below:
a. On May 24, 2022, between 5:30 p.m. and 5:38 p.m., NAUTA removed three boxes from the Storage Room.
b. On May 30, 2022, at 9:08 a.m., TRUMP and NAUTA spoke by phone for approximately 30 seconds. Between 10:02 a.m. and 11:51 a.m., NAUTA removed a total of approximately 50 boxes from the Storage Room.
c. On May 30, 2022, at 12:33 p.m., a Trump family member [Melania Trump?] texted NAUTA:
Good afternoon Walt, Happy Memorial Day!
I saw you put boxes to Potus room. Just FYI and I will tell him as well: Not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the plane. We will NOT have a room for them. Plane will be full with luggage. Thank you!
NAUTA replied:
Good Afternoon Ma'am [Smiley Face Emoji] Thank you so much.
I think he wanted to pick from them. I don't imagine him wanting to take the boxes.
He told me to put them in the room and that he was going to talk to you about them.
d. On June 1, 2022, beginning at 12:52 p.m., NAUTA removed approximately 11 boxes from the Storage Room.
59. On June 1, 2022, TRUMP spoke with Trump Attorney 1 by phone and asked whether Trump Attorney 1 was coming to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day and for exactly what purpose. Trump Attorney 1 reminded TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 was going to review the boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club so that Trump Attorney 1 could have a custodian of records certify that the May 11 subpoena had been complied with fully.
60. On June 2, 2022, the day that Trump Attorney 1 was scheduled to review TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, TRUMP spoke with NAUTA on the phone at 9:29 a.m. for approximately 24 seconds.
61. Later that day, between 12:33 p.m. and 12:52 p.m., NAUTA and an employee of The Mar-a-Lago Club moved approximately 30 boxes from TRUMP's residence to the Storage Room.
62. In sum, between May 23, 2022, and June 2, 2022, before Trump Attorney 1's review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA -- at TRUMP's direction -- moved approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence and brought to the Storage Room only approximately 30 boxes. Neither TRUMP nor NAUTA informed Trump Attorney 1 of this information.
The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury
63. On the afternoon of June 2, 2022, as TRUMP had been informed, Trump Attorney 1 arrived at The Mar-a-Lago Club to review TRUMP's boxes to look for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the review. NAUTA escorted Trump Attorney 1 to the Storage Room.
64. Between 3:53 p.m. and 6:23 p.m., Trump Attorney 1 reviewed the contents of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room. Trump Attorney 1 located 38 documents with classification markings inside the boxes, which Trump Attorney 1 removed and placed in a Redweld folder. Trump Attorney 1 contacted NAUTA and asked him to bring clear duct tape to the Storage Room, which NAUTA did. Trump Attorney 1 used the clear duct tape to seal the Redweld folder with the documents with classification markings inside.
65. After Trump Attorney 1 finished sealing the Redweld folder containing the documents with classification markings that he had found inside TRUMP's boxes, NAUTA took Trump Attorney 1 to a dining room in The Mar-a-Lago Club to meet with TRUMP. After Trump Attorney 1 confirmed that he was finished with his search of the Storage Room, TRUMP asked, "Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?"
66. TRUMP and Trump Attorney 1 then discussed what to do with the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings and whether Trump Attorney 1 should bring them to his hotel room and put them in a safe there. During that conversation, TRUMP made a plucking motion, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
He made a funny motion as though -- well okay why don't you take them with you to your hotel room and if there's anything really bad in there, like, you know, pluck it out. And that was the motion that he made. He didn't say that.
67. That evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted the Department of Justice and requested that an FBI agent meet him at The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day, June 3, so that he could turn over the documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena.
68. Also that evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted another TRUMP attorney ("Trump Attorney 3" [Christina Bobb?]) and asked her if she would come to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next morning to act as a custodian of records and sign a certification regarding the search for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 3, who had no role in the review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, agreed.
69. The next day, on June 3, 2022, at Trump Attorney 1's request, Trump Attorney 3 signed a certification as the custodian of records for The Office of Donald J. Trump and took it to The Mar-a-Lago Club to provide it to the Department of Justice and FBI. In the certification, Trump Attorney 3 -- who performed no search of TRUMP's boxes; had not reviewed the May 11 Subpoena, and had not reviewed the contents of the Redweld folder -- stated, among other things, that "[ b]ased upon the information that [had] been provided to" her:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
70. These statements were false because, among other reasons, TRUMP had directed NAUTA to move boxes before Trump Attorney 1's June 2 review, so that many boxes were not searched and many documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena could not be found -- and in fact were not found -- by Trump Attorney 1.
71. Shortly after Trump Attorney 3 executed the false certification, on June 3, 2022, Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 met at The Mar-a-Lago Club with personnel from the Department of Justice and FBI. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 turned over the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings, as well as the false certification signed by Trump Attorney 3 as custodian of records.TRUMP, who had delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club, joined Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 for some of the meeting. TRUMP claimed to the Department of Justice and FBI that he was "an open book."
72. Earlier that same day, NAUTA and others loaded several of TRUMP's boxes along with other items on aircraft that flew TRUMP and his family north for the summer.
The Court-Authorized Search of The Mar-a-Lago Club
73. In July 2022, the FBI and grand jury obtained and reviewed surveillance video from The Mar-a-Lago Club showing the movement of boxes set forth above.
74. On August 8, 2022, the FBI executed a court-authorized search warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club. The search warrant authorized the FBI to search for and seize, among other things, all documents with classification markings.
75. During the execution of the warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club, the FBI seized 102 documents with classification markings in TRUMP's office and the Storage Room, as follows:
Location / Number of Documents / Classification Markings
Willful Retention of National Defense Information (18 U.S.C. §793(e))
76. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
77. On or about the dates set forth in the table below, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
having unauthorized possession of, access to, and control over documents relating to the national defense, did willfully retain the documents and fail to deliver them to the officer and employee of the United States entitled to receive them; that is -- TRUMP, without authorization, retained at The Mar-a-Lago Club documents relating to the national defense, including the following:
Count / Date of Offense / Classification Marking / Document Description
1 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//NOFORN//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 3, 2018, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
2 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 9, 2018, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
3 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN//FISA / Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States, with handwritten annotation in black marker
4 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 6, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to foreign countries, including military activities and planning of foreign countries
5 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated June 2020 concerning nuclear capabilities of a foreign country
6 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated June 4, 2020, concerning White House
7 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Document dated October 21, 2018, concerning communications with a leader of a foreign country
8 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//REL TO USA, FVEY / Document dated October 4, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
9 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country
10 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//TK//NOFORN / Document dated November 2017 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
11 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / No marking / Undated document concerning military contingency planning of the United States
12 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//REL TO USA, FVEY / Pages of undated document concerning projected regional military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States
13 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States
14 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated January 2020 concerning military options of a foreign country and potential effects on United States interests
15 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated February 2020 concerning policies in a foreign country
16 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated December 2019 concerning foreign country support of terrorist acts against United States interests
17 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/TK//ORCON/IMCON/NOFORN / Document dated January 2020 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
18 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Document dated March 2020 concerning military operations against United States forces and others
19 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA / Undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States
20 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN / Undated document concerning timeline and details of attack in a foreign country
21 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Undated document concerning military capabilities of foreign countries
22 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//RSEN/ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated August 2019 concerning regional military activity of a foreign country
23 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated August 30, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries, with handwritten annotation in black marker
24 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//HCWS-P/SI//ORCON-USGOV/NOFORN / Undated document concerning military activity of a foreign country
25 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//HCS-P/SI//ORCON-USGOV/NOFORN / Document dated October 24, 2019, concerning military activity of foreign countries and the United States
26 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Document dated November 7, 2019, concerning military activity of foreign countries and the United States
27 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Document dated November 2019 concerning military activity of foreign countries
28 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated October 18, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
29 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/SI/TK//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated October 18, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
30 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Document dated October 15, 2019, concerning military activity in a foreign country
31 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Document dated February 2017 concerning military activity of a foreign country
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 793(e).
COUNT 32 Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice (18 U.S.C. § 1512(k))
78. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
The Conspiracy and its Objects
79. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and with others known and unknown to the grand jury, to engage in misleading conduct toward another person and corruptly persuade another person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(2)(A), and to corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512( c)(1).
The Purpose of the Conspiracy
80. The purpose of the conspiracy was for TRUMP to keep classified documents he had taken with him from the White House and to hide and conceal them from a federal grand jury.
The Manner and Means of the Conspiracy
81. The manner and means by which the defendants sought to accomplish the objects and purpose of the conspiracy included, among other things, the following:
a. Suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
b. moving boxes of documents to conceal them from Trump Attorney 1, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 hide or destroy documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena, while TRUMP claimed he was cooperating fully;
e. causing a false certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury representing that all documents with classification markings had been produced, when in fact they had not; and
f. making false and misleading statements to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1512(k).
COUNT 33 Withholding a Document or Record (18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(b)(2)(A), 2)
82. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
83. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly engage in misleading conduct toward another person, and knowingly corruptly persuade and attempt to persuade another person, with intent to cause and induce any person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding; that is -- (1) TRUMP attempted to persuade Trump Attorney 1 to hide and conceal documents from a federal grand jury; and (2) TRUMP and NAUTA misled Trump Attorney 1 by moving boxes that contained documents with classification markings so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United states Code, Sections 1512(b)(2)(A) and 2.
COUNT 34 Corruptly Concealing a Document or Record (18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(c)(1), 2)
84. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
85. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
did corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object, and attempted to do so, with the intent to impair the object's integrity and availability for use in an official proceeding; that is -- TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed boxes that contained documents with classification markings from Trump Attorney 1 so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1512(c)(1) and 2.
COUNT 35 Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation (18 U.S.C. §§ 1519, 2)
86. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
87. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and. elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly conceal, cover up, falsify, and make a false entry in any record, document, and tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, and influence the investigation and proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of a department and agency of the United States, and in relation to and contemplation of any such matter; that is -- during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, (1) TRUMP and NAUTA hid, concealed, and covered up from the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings at The Mar-a-Lago Club; and (2) TRUMP caused a false certification to be submitted to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1519 and 2.
COUNT 36 Scheme to Conceal (18 U.S.C.§§ 1001(a)(1), 2)
88. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
89. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully falsify, conceal, and cover up by any trick, scheme, and device a material fact; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed from the grand jury and the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(1) and 2.
90. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
91. On or about June 3, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make and cause to be made a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP caused the following false statements and representations to be made to the grand jury and the FBI in a sworn certification executed by Trump Attorney 3:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
92. The statements and representations set forth above were false, as TRUMP knew, because TRUMP had directed that boxes be removed from the Storage Room before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the June 2, 2022 search for documents with classification markings, so that Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not include all of TRUMP's boxes that were removed from the White House; Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not locate all documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena; and all responsive documents were not provided to the FBI and the grand jury with the certification. In fact, after June 3, 2022, more than 100 documents with classification markings remained at The Mar-a-Lago Club until the FBI search on August 8, 2022.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(2) and 2.
COUNT 38 False Statements and Representations (18 U.S.C.§ 1001(a)(2))
93. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
94. On May 26, 2022, NAUTA participated in a voluntary interview with the FBI. During the interview, the FBI explained to NAUTA that the FBI was investigating how classified documents had been kept at The Mar-a-Lago Club, and the FBI asked NAUTA questions about the location and movement of TRUMP's boxes before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA on January 17, 2022. NAUTA was represented by counsel, and the FBI advised NAUTA that the interview was voluntary and that he could leave at any time. The FBI also advised NAUTA that it was a criminal offense to lie to the FBI. The interview was recorded.
95. On or about May 26, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- in a voluntary interview during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, NAUTA was asked the following questions and gave the following false answers:
Question: Does any -- are you aware of any boxes being brought to his home -- his suite?
Answer: No.
* * *
Question: All right. So, so to the best of your knowledge, you're saying that those boxes that you brought onto the truck, first time you ever laid eyes on them was just the day of when [Trump Employee 2] needed you to --
Answer: Correct.
Question: -- to take them. Okay.
* * *
Question: In knowing that we're trying to track the life of these boxes and where they could have been kept and stored and all that kind of stuff --
Answer: Mm-hm.
Question: -- do you have any information that could -- that would -- that could help us understand, like, where they were kept, how they were kept, were they secured, were they locked? Something that makes the intelligence community feel better about these things, you know?
Answer: I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don't know. I don't -- I honestly just don't know.
* * *
Question: And what -- so, so you only saw the 15 boxes, 15, 17 boxes --
Answer: Mm-hm.
Question: -- the day of the move? Even -- they just showed up that day?
Answer: They were in Pine Hall. [Trump Employee 2], just asked me, hey, can we move some boxes?
Question: Okay.
Answer: And I was like, okay.
Question: So, you didn't know -- had no idea how they got there before?
Answer: No.
96. The underscored statements and representations above were false, as NAUTA knew, because (1) NAUTA did in fact know that the boxes in Pine Hall had come from the Storage Room, as NAUTA himself, with the assistance of Trump Employee 2, had moved the boxes from the Storage Room to Pine Hall; and (2) NAUTA had observed the boxes in and moved them to various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001(a)(2),
A TRUE BILL
____________ (Signed) FOREPERSON
____________ (Signed) JACK SMITH SPECIAL COUNSEL UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Trump INDICTMENT and WHAT’S NEXT Legal AF MeidasTouch Streamed live 22 hours ago Legal AF Podcast - Full Episodes 6/10/23
The top-rated legal and political podcast Legal AF is back for another hard-hitting look at the most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this special edition, all three Legal AF anchors, Ben Meiselas, Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo, join together to discuss the historic 37 count criminal federal indictment of Donald Trump for violations of the Espionage Act and for conspiracy to obstruct justice, among other things and what happens next including the arraignment next week, and so much more.
Transcript
0:00 foreign [Music] has been criminally indicted for his 0:06 willful retention of National Defense information false statements conspiracy 0:14 and obstruction of justice in federal court in the southern district of 0:20 Florida by a grand jury there in a powerful detailed speaking indictment 0:27 with 38 criminal counts special counsel Jack Smith lays out the case against 0:35 criminal defendant Donald Trump and his criminal code defendant and personal 0:41 aide Walt nauta the criminal indictment contains photographs of boxes with 0:48 highly classified information in bathrooms on the floor in auditoriums 0:55 all totally unsecured the indictment contains text messages from from Trump's 1:01 employees like Walton out to end others showing Donald Trump was directly 1:07 involved at every step in trying to deceive the FBI and the Department of 1:13 Justice by trying to keep these classified records the indictment also 1:19 includes underwrote testimony from Witnesses against Donald Trump and It 1:24 quotes audio recordings of Donald Trump showing classified documents to people 1:30 and bragging about it Donald Trump will be criminally arraigned in a Miami 1:35 Federal Courthouse this Tuesday and already Donald Trump and groups like The 1:42 Proud boys and other right-wing extremists are trying to incite violence 1:47 in front of the courthouse meanwhile Donald Trump's lawyers Jim trustee and 1:53 John Rowley who led his legal defense in connection with special counsel Jack 1:58 Smith's criminal investigation into Trump's theft of these government records have officially left the legal 2:06 team but get this the case against Donald Trump has been randomly assigned to 2:13 disgraced federal judge Eileen cannon from the southern district of Florida a 2:18 2020 Trump appointee who we all know because she was previously reprimanded 2:24 by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals not once but twice for improperly asserting 2:31 jurisdiction for Donald Trump over the department of Justice's search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago last year we will 2:39 break down all aspects of this criminal indictment and what happens next also 2:45 let's not forget that special counsel Jack Smith has another criminal investigation still taking place of 2:52 Donald Trump relating to the January 6th Insurrection and Donald Trump's attempt 2:58 to overthrow our government and destroy our democracy and Jack Smith is moving 3:03 closer to another criminal indictment in that matter on Friday the federal judge 3:10 presiding over that grand jury in Washington D.C partially unsealed his 3:15 order from March when he compelled former vice president Mike Pence to 3:21 testify before the grand jurian when you read this order it also shows how very 3:28 very damaging the evidence is against Donald Trump in that matter a historic 3:34 episode of legal AF and no other way to do this when with both co-hosts Michael 3:40 popock and Karen Friedman agnifolo how you doing both popock how are you doing 3:45 I'm doing I'm doing great Proud to be an attorney an American 3:51 a patriot at a part of the justice system in my own way and here with you 3:56 and Karen um to unpack it all we've done it in hot ticks kind of on the fly but this is our 4:02 first opportunity together to analyze what's happened talk about things that are agitating our listeners 4:09 and followers hopefully give them some remedy some bomb for that and then talk about what's going to happen next with 4:15 Tuesday's arraignment hi Karen Karen how are you I'm good thanks for letting me join 4:21 I'm excited about it always not only is it an honor when you join but it is it 4:28 adds extra Delight to these uh weekend legal AFS when the gang is all here together but let's dive right into it 4:36 first let's talk about what this indictment is when we learned about it 4:42 what the various accounts are 38 counts what the charges are let's just break 4:50 down Michael popock what is actually in this indictment I laid out in very broad 4:55 terms what's in there but let me pass it to you great I'll do that then and um 5:01 secondly I do want to address the elephant in the room no pun intended with the GOP Eileen Cannon being 5:08 assigned I have a different theory about what may happen on Tuesday and I will share it and analyze it here but I'll 5:14 tease that but let's get back to what you asked me um I'm going to give two two keys key e 5:19 k e y that people can use when they read disintitement we of course have posted it all over and we'll talk about it at 5:25 length today there are 37 counts against Donald Trump 5:30 and and including some with that he shares with Walt nauta his valet Butler 5:36 body man it depends on what era you grew up uh that was his role from uh from the 5:42 White House all the way forward forward to Mar-A-Lago and uh one count alone against Walt NADA for false statement 5:49 that gives us a total of 38. the easiest way to group it is of course the way the 5:54 government has grouped it 31 of those counts are for individual violations of 6:01 the Espionage Act document by document by document that's why there's 31 of 6:06 them so there's a list here that we're showing on the screen from the chart within the complaint that shows the 31 6:13 times at least based on current knowledge to the Department of Justice and the grand jury of times when the 6:20 Espionage Act Donald Trump using secreting not returning 6:27 transmitting National Defense information ndi which includes as a 6:34 subset classified and top secret and the highest levels of National Security 6:39 documents that this country owns and possesses including nuclear 6:44 the the fighting capacity of our adversaries and of our allies things 6:50 that if any of those pieces of paper found their way out of the bathroom Ballroom storage room or any other 6:57 semi-public area of Mar-A-Lago or Bedminster or the airplane or the SUV 7:03 all or all the people's hands who touched it who aren't qualified or to 7:08 have classified uh top secret information this country would be imperiled that is 7:14 the gravaman the foundation of this complaint and think about how many people there's 150 people or more that 7:21 work at Mar-A-Lago there's another dozens and dozens that work at Bedminster we know what we know we know 7:28 what was returned forcibly by execution of search warrant and subpoena and a little bit that was 7:35 dribbled back by Donald Trump to the National Archive back at the very beginning we don't need we don't even know what's missing we don't know there 7:42 has to be a working hypothesis that there are documents that are no longer within the care custody and control of 7:48 even Donald Trump because of the way he carelessly maintained these documents so 7:54 that's the breakdown of the 38 it goes across eight different Federal statutes but I'll give you the big picture on 8:00 them you've got um conspiracy to obstruct Justice which 8:06 is what we always thought this was going to be an obstruction case we talked about frequently in legal AF and this 8:11 was going to be a uh Espionage Act case we've been talking about that since day one both those counts are there both 8:18 those counts are shared um uh well the conspiracy count is 8:23 shared with Walt nauda he's a co-defendant in that one the um Espionage Act is right now just 8:30 against Donald Trump himself then you've got various counts that sound the same but arise under different 8:37 Federal statutes concealing documents a 8:42 conspiracy to conceal documents a scheme to conceal documents uh and then you 8:48 have the stuff related to false statement both the false so what are the false statements for Donald Trump it is 8:54 his efforts to allow uh because he misled his lawyers on purpose Corcoran 9:02 and we'll talk about Corcoran and Bob who's certified under penalty of perjury on June the second 2022 before the 9:10 execution of the search warrant that they had done a diligent search when Trump knew or should have known 9:16 that at least 30 boxes that he directed be taken out of the storage room 9:22 remained in his personal Residence at Mar-A-Lago therefore could not have been searched by uh Corcoran prior to his 9:29 meeting with the FBI Trump didn't want them searched they remained with Donald 9:34 Trump until after the search was completed that Trump allowing them to sign that knowing that they were meeting 9:41 with the government the next day that they needed to comply with the subpoena um that is him also participating in a 9:48 false statement and then you've got the false statements that Walt NADA has made independently and this is you know we 9:53 all speculated the best we could that Walt NADA was in deep trouble because not only do they have him on video and 10:00 that's reflected in the complaint by timestamp moving boxes in and out of the 10:07 um of the White House sorry of mar-a-lago's various locations and always ending up in the personal 10:13 residence section of Mar-A-Lago in the pine Hall which is some sort of hallway in front of the bedrooms in the offices 10:20 that Donald Trump resides in they are at Mar-A-Lago putting Trump right into the 10:25 jackpot he's reviewing the boxes that he's making Trump is making the personal 10:31 decision based on his own personal review about what does spoon feed back to the National Archive at the very 10:37 beginning of this process when only 15 boxes arrived even those had classified documents inside of them and then Trump 10:44 coach his lawyers Corcoran and Halligan we'll talk about Lindsey Halligan in a 10:50 minute to why don't we say that we isn't it better if we tell the government in 10:56 response to the subpoena that there aren't any documents wouldn't that be better and then using examples that he 11:01 thinks come out of the Hillary Clinton server era to to suggest to them their testimony to tamper with them and to and 11:09 to obstruct Justice wouldn't it be better if some of those documents just and then he made a plucking according to 11:15 Evan corcoran's notes which are referenced to the complaint he made a plucking motion just if they just kind 11:21 of disappeared when they were in your hotel room Mr Corcoran it wouldn't that be good or how about that I.T person for 11:28 Hillary Clinton that made a bunch of emails disappear that he didn't get in trouble he's telling that story because 11:34 he's trying to coach his lawyers into obstructing justice with him and Evan 11:39 Corcoran takes it all down in his notes if you're on trying to unlock the key of the complaint Ben and for our audience 11:46 I'll give you some of the names that are obvious attorney number one for Trump is obviously Corcoran who turned over 50 11:53 pages of notes an audio tape of his musings and testified to the grand jury attorney number two has to be Lindsay 12:00 Halligan because Lindsey Halligan was present during the search warrant and during some of the other uh document 12:07 attempted document collection by uh Corcoran and attorney number three has 12:12 to be Christina Bob because she's the one that signed that certification the other fascinating like bombshell there's 12:19 so many I mean you've done a million hot takes on them and I I could too that's in the complaint is that Christina Bob 12:25 without participating at all in the search of even the documents that Donald 12:30 Trump self-selected for Corcoran to look at she didn't even participate in that 12:36 he called Corcoran called her up told her to come over put a form in front of her and she's signed it having not 12:43 looked at the documents and didn't even know there was a subpoena or what was in The subpoena that was 12:48 gobsmacking to me and the other thing there was gobsmacking to me is based on the time stamp 12:55 um Evan Corcoran spent like 35 minutes looking at what was in the storage unit 13:01 in order to find or not find whatever Donald Trump had had placed there for 13:06 him you know this pla this this theater that was going on this Kabuki theater for Donald Trump he spent 35 minutes 13:13 I've been doing this a long time I've gone into a a room full of boxes that I've had a search for Discovery purposes 13:20 or or or because there was a subpoena outstanding and you can't even order your cup of coffee in 30 how do you 13:26 review that picture of documents that we've just put on the screen piled high to the ceiling and wide to the edge of 13:33 the room in 35 minutes but he did because that's what it said he came in and came out and have the timestamp for 13:38 that so you have you have all of that the other uh person that is you can kind of piece 13:44 together is the is is there's two instances that are referenced that we talked about on legal AF where 13:51 highly compartmented sense sensitive information including What's called the five eyes meaning only five of our 13:58 allies Canada Australia us and two others can look at New Zealand can look 14:04 at this material it's called five eyes material he was showing five eyes material Donald Trump at Bedminster 14:10 because he secreted documents and boxes through Walt now to got them to Bedminster on his plane and then was 14:17 showing them off to people including Taylor budowich who just testified earlier in 14:24 the week in Miami at the Grand Jury that's the guy who's member of the pack 14:29 that got shown at least one of those war maps or or uh or or War planning 14:35 documents that is another violation under the 38 other the you know the 1-31 14:40 counts of Espionage Act that is cited that is is ridiculous and then lastly 14:46 there's even a little I think a little warning not only to the 14:51 people who are like Walton outa around Trump who have not come forward to to 14:57 cooperate with the government they could be next in being indicted but you have a reference it has to be to Melania Trump 15:04 within the document now they could have left it out because it doesn't really it 15:09 doesn't really move the ball ahead in terms of the crimes that are being alleged but there is a reference we put 15:16 up up on the screen there's only one female member of his family that would 15:21 be responsible for moving from house to house and that's Melania it's not the 15:26 daughters it's not anybody else it's Melania and you can tell from the way this this is written and sort of not 15:33 English as a first language type language that she's telling Walt nouda there's no room on the plane to 15:39 Bedminster for all the boxes that Donald Trump wants to take with him to get them 15:44 away from Mar-A-Lago and the prying eyes of the FBI and the Department of Justice 15:49 that's Melania why is it in there because they're sending a shot across the bout of Donald Trump that says 15:55 nobody is safe we've got text messages we've got emails we've got video we've 16:01 got testimony we got it all and if you don't play ball with us and if you think 16:06 we're not serious we're putting your wife in there as well that's my takeaway from where we're at I want to do one 16:13 thing in Eileen Cannon because I have a different View and I just want to give people a little bit of 16:18 I know that this is an agitating issue that she got quote unquote assigned to this I'm not sure that's going to happen 16:26 on Tuesday and I'm not sure she's the permanent judge I'll tell you why first of all here time for the pope quarter 16:32 board first of all the chief judge of Miami is altanaga her Chief magistrate 16:38 is Torres Torres opened the unsealed the 16:43 indictment not Bruce Reinhardt who's listed on the complaint on the on the 16:48 indictment as being the Magistrate Judge you see up top right it says Reinhardt but Reinhardt it sits in West Palm Beach 16:54 and he did not unseal Torres unsealed the clerk stamp on the top right corner 17:01 is the clerk Madam Clerk of the Miami court so yes I understand that there was 17:07 a grand jury that may have been West Palm Beach based that ended up in Miami for coveted reasons but all signs so far 17:13 point to Miami and then finally Canon's magistrate when she sits in Miami because these judges sort of run the 17:20 circuit they run the southern district from Fort Pierce down to Miami is not Torres her magistrate when she's in 17:27 Miami is otatso Reyes and so far that person's not involved so I am not yet on 17:34 board with all the reporting that it's definitely Eileen Cannon because her name is listed at the top we're going to 17:40 see on Tuesday yes there's a random wheel selection in in the southern district 17:46 um so people are like how could it be there's 15 and plus senior judges how could that possibly be I'm not sure it 17:52 is and then the chief judge is permitted under the local administrative orders of 17:57 the southern district to change the trial judge if she so fits if she's if 18:03 she sees fit so Alta Naga can change her out by Tuesday or thereafter and if the 18:08 Department of Justice doesn't like Canon and it really is Canon on Tuesday they file either Canon recuses herself which 18:15 she is required to do if she believes there's an appearance of impropriety or bias based on her prior rulings When 18:22 Donald Trump ran to her courtroom to get uh to stop the Mar-A-Lago investigation in its tracks and their 11th circuits 18:29 slapping her back I think she recuses if she doesn't recuse they can file a motion It ultimately goes up to the 11th 18:36 circuit and the 11th circuit decides which judge presides over this case having said all that I don't think at 18:41 the end of the day Eileen Cannon is going to be the presiding judge for the trial of Donald Trump I have my own 18:47 thoughts that I want to share about Eileen Canon which is similar but 18:52 um slightly different but I think it will still be very reassuring to all of 18:58 our viewers out there that I'm ultimately not worried about that assignment I also want to talk about 19:04 some of my views within the indictment but I really want to get your 19:10 perspective Karen Friedman agnifolo you were the former number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's office as 19:17 a former prosecutor you've prepared indictments at the state level but you 19:23 know the process you've worked with special counsel Jack Smith before from the very outset when special counsel 19:30 Jack Smith was announced as the special counsel from the very very very first 19:36 moment you were here on the Mindless touch Network I remember that day in November very vividly because a lot of 19:43 the public had no clue who this guy was a lot of the large media networks were 19:49 basically trashing this guy and you came on and you said I've worked with special 19:54 counsel Jack Smith he is one of the most diligent prosecutors there is and if he 20:00 is getting on this case then this is very very serious and Karen you were 20:05 right I want to get your thoughts on 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grand jury in the southern 23:14 district of Florida uh in the first segment we heard Michael popock's take 23:19 on the uh criminal indictment and now I want to hear from Karen Friedman agnifolo former prosecutor number two at 23:28 the Manhattan District Attorney's Office you've prepared very very serious indictments you've been in the room 23:34 working with top prosecutors prepared documents just like this in fact you've 23:40 worked before with special counsel Jack Smith before he was a special counsel back when he was a prosecutor in the 23:48 office where you work so Karen Friedman agnifolo your thoughts yeah so 23:54 so indictment I want to just talk about some overall observations so first of 23:59 all this is what's called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment which is different than a Bare Bones indictment which is the other type of 24:06 indictment which the more usual kind of indictment if you recall Alvin Bragg when he brought his case against Donald 24:12 Trump uh that was a Bare Bones indictment that just lists the legal language on or about this date at this 24:19 location the defendant committed the crime of falsifying a business record and they really Bare Bones indictments 24:26 are what they typically look like it's just to inform you of the charges but there is a a tool that prosecutors use 24:32 sometimes which is called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment and that's usually when the charge is either 24:39 conspiracy which there are conspiracy charges in this indictment or if there's a RICO or racketeering charge which is 24:47 the type of indictment that we know funny Willis is considering bringing down in Fulton County Georgia so I would 24:54 expect that there would would be a speaking indictment there and a speaking indictment all it is is a story you're 25:01 telling the story of the crime and of the defendants and of the what's 25:07 happening there and this story that uh that Jack Smith told you can tell it was 25:14 written so that anyone can understand it so that the American public can 25:19 understand it a court can understand it and a defendant can understand it and it's it's what's required in a 25:26 conspiracy uh indictment you have to spell out the conspiracy and the 25:31 agreement and all of that but but Jack Smith did this in a way so that there was a coherent story that anyone could 25:39 understand and that's because this is such a historic indictment you know indicting the former president of the 25:46 United States for for violating the laws he sort of uphold to indict a former 25:53 president and charge him with obstructing the very agencies that he used to lead and to indict the former 25:59 commander-in-chief and charge him with endangering our national security by violating the Espionage Act I mean there 26:07 is no more serious accusation you can make and so this is such a significant 26:13 indictment because of what it is doing that in order to sell this indictment to 26:19 the American people Jack Smith had to write this in a way that really 26:25 Justified it it's more this indictment is more than just these are the charges and what he's charged with this 26:31 indictment is a story and it's a justification for why this indictment is so significant and why Trump's conduct 26:38 was was not at all like The Accidental possession of classified or national 26:45 security information the way um you know Hillary Clinton's server or the way Pence uh found some and Biden 26:53 found some those were accidental uh possessions all of them unintentional 26:58 and so what happened when they found them they discovered them they gave them back and I think that's significant 27:04 because that's another thing Jack Smith puts in his indictment is all the efforts that the Department of Justice 27:10 made to try and get the documents back had Donald Trump just said oh here I 27:16 didn't realize I had them here they are and give them back this indictment would never have occurred this we would never 27:23 have him be charged but this isn't just about possession this is about him 27:28 thinking that he's Above the Law and nothing no laws apply to him and he can 27:35 do whatever he wants you know the one thing that wasn't in the indictment that 27:40 struck me was motive their motive isn't required to prove these cases you know and motive is is 27:47 why why did someone do it and and we know that Jack Smith was looking into whether he had whether Trump had uh 27:54 business dealings in the countries where um where these the the 28:00 um documents pertained to and so that was not in here now that doesn't mean 28:06 that that doesn't exist it just means that Jack Smith wasn't able to uh to 28:12 prove that or to get that information in time for the indictment or maybe it 28:17 didn't happen at all so we don't know what the motive is and and you know I I was reading uh I was reading um an 28:24 interview that someone gave who knows Trump well and said he thought that he 28:31 kept this stuff as a trophy so he can you know he he thinks he won the election and you know he still thinks 28:38 he's president and so he still thinks he can keep these and use them to show people that he can do whatever he wants 28:43 but who knows motive wasn't in there and it doesn't have to be proven but that was the one thing that I noticed that 28:50 was missing that frankly could help with the court of public opinion and persuading people that this is a 28:57 righteous prosecution now Jack Smith when he brought this case 29:03 you know there was a lot of chatter that this was going to be in DC and the reason that's the case was 29:09 there were aspects of this crime that happened in Washington DC right there was he was president in in Washington 29:15 and these documents existed in Washington and they had to be taken from Washington to be brought to the various 29:20 locations whether it's Florida or the or the ones in in Bedminster that that are in the indictment and we know that there 29:27 was a grand jury in uh in Washington not because the justice department or 29:32 anybody leaked it necessarily but because Witnesses were called to testify and and defense attorneys you know a lot 29:39 of the witnesses had defense attorneys or attorneys and so people talk and there were reporters stationed outside 29:44 and would know who went in and and so you could tell that there was activity going on in the Washington grand jury 29:50 and then at some point towards the end and we know we were at the end of the presentation because of the types of 29:57 witnesses who were being called and the types of Cooperators you know they move 30:02 up the chain of command uh in order of of importance and you could tell who where they were based on the types of 30:09 witnesses that they were getting getting to and again we know that largely because attorneys we think leaked this 30:17 information not you know not the attorneys at the justice department but attorneys representing the witnesses who 30:23 went in to testify and so we knew we were at the end and that's what all the 30:28 experts were be could you know you can sort of read the tea leaves and say okay based on what's Happening Now we can 30:34 tell we're sort of near the end and turns out uh people were right because it's it's fairly 30:39 um it's not that complicated to understand when you put all the puzzle pieces together and so and so we knew we 30:46 were at the end and then all of a sudden everything stopped and at that point I 30:51 had surmised at least in my mind I thought well I think that's um that's when uh he's uh Jack Smith is talking to 30:57 Merrick Garland that's when he's presenting his recommendations and his prosecution memo and that was just a 31:02 guess but that's what I was thinking and at towards the end when uh on Wednesday 31:08 when we had legal AF um popoc and I were going back and forth because a lot of people were saying is this going to be 31:14 in DC or is this going to be in Florida don't forget at that point uh there was there was information that 31:20 this case uh was also being presented in Florida and one of the things we discussed and that I posited was I think 31:27 this whole thing is going to be in Florida and not in Washington for the following reasons 31:32 getting a trial if you're Jack Smith getting any trial going before the 31:37 presidential election is is what you want that is the goal you want this case to go to trial because we know Donald 31:44 Trump will never plead guilty that will never ever happen so you want a trial and the only chance you have at going to 31:51 trial because we know Donald Trump's number one trial strategy is what he does everywhere is to try to create 31:57 delay and how do you create delay in a federal criminal trial you make motions 32:03 you make legal arguments and you you make arguments that you think you want 32:09 the judge to rule on and then if the judge doesn't rule your way you know Trump what does he do he appeals it and 32:14 then what does he go from there he appeals it to the Supreme Court of the United States and so what does that do 32:19 all of that takes time because Donald Trump does not want a trial he doesn't want a trial in DC he doesn't want a 32:25 trial in Florida he doesn't want to trial anywhere because a trial will expose all of this evidence in excrucia 32:32 creating detail and it will risk him being a convicted felon the first in our 32:37 nation's history so his goal will be to delay and the number one problem with 32:42 bringing this case in Washington is something in the law called venue an event the venue is is where do you 32:49 bring the case where does it have to happen and the law says the Paul and the policy says it has to be where the 32:57 Essential Elements of the crime substantially happened and here that is Mar-A-Lago and you can see that now in 33:04 the indictment and so in order to take venue off the table as a legal argument 33:09 because that really is his number one legal argument that that I think has the most would have had the most legs or at 33:16 least the most appellate legs I think he would have ultimately lost but he could at least make the argument and so that 33:22 would have delayed the trial and so if I'm Jack Smith and Merrick Garland I think okay if I take this down to 33:28 Florida it takes a venue off the table and at least I have a chance of a trial and there's depending on how many judges 33:35 were in the mix of who could get this some people say 15 other people say 33:41 fewer because but I don't really know how how Florida works so I defer to popoc and he says uh it's likely there 33:47 were 15 judges in the mix if that's the case I'm thinking if I'm the prosecutor 33:52 there's a 1 in 15 chance it's Eileen Cannon we know she was a disaster so I'm going to take my chances because I want 33:58 to have a trial and of course lo and behold where are we we are in front of Eileen Cannon but I think that's why the 34:05 prosecutor Jack Smith here decided to take it down to Florida and you know look are there going to be 34:11 some Logistics with trying a former president of the United States yes I mean one of them is is assuming fawny 34:18 Willis also brings her case in July and August and Jack brings his January 6th case it's going to be so we know they're 34:25 gonna have to coordinate at least three criminal trials maybe four which one goes first is anybody's guess the 34:31 biggest logistical hurdle though I think in this case is the fact that this trial involves evidence of classified 34:39 documents so on the one hand these are our nation's most uh most top secret 34:45 classified documents and and you know Donald Trump Donald Trump had you know had uh over at 34:54 over 300 documents that had classified markings that we know of and over a 34:59 hundred were recovered during this execution of the search warrant he took 35:05 over 12 000 government documents total but so let's say there were over let's 35:11 say there's either 100 or 300 classified documents that were in play that Jack 35:16 Smith could have used in this indictment he chose 31 of them and one question we 35:22 will all have to ask ourselves is how did he choose those 31 counts and because that's a very careful careful 35:29 thing that prosecutors do when you have lots and lots and lots of evidence you know I remember when when we used to 35:36 when we used to charge uh crimes that had you know you'd recover you know thousands of images of child porn for 35:43 example you wouldn't necessarily you know each one could be its own count you wouldn't necessarily charge a thousand 35:50 counts first of all it bogs down the uh the jury it's a giant indictment and so 35:55 what you do is you carefully select a representative number and so uh he would 36:00 have done that here and the 31 counts that he would have chosen he would have carefully selected and the question is 36:06 why did he pick these documents and you know know one question I have to ask myself is perhaps he chose ones that 36:14 wouldn't endanger our national security If he if these come out in public right 36:22 um for example did he did he work with intelligence professionals and only use 36:27 those that could be used in open court and shown to the jury but that cuts both 36:33 ways because Trump will say see they're not National Security documents the jury sees them you see them the whole world 36:39 sees them right so kind of by their very nature you can't necessarily use the 36:46 most secret ones because they can't possibly be shown to everybody because 36:52 they would endanger our national security and so there or perhaps there's 36:57 another there's another question maybe dot maybe Jack Smith worked with the intelligence Professor professionals to 37:04 say okay if you can get Donald Trump to agree not to show these to the public in the jury you can use them until that 37:11 point but there is something called the classified information procedures act and 37:17 um and and the judge will have to utilize the procedures there they'll have a hearing they call it cepa they'll 37:23 have a sipa hearing to determine uh how and in what capacity these documents can 37:28 be used while still ensuring that Donald Trump receives a fair trial and it's 37:35 complicated though so Jack Smith would have chosen uh these these charges very very carefully when creating this 37:42 indictment and and that's how how these 31 documents got in there 37:50 another couple things just to put some more other thoughts out there to keep in mind 37:55 um to keep in mind about this is you know Jack Smith will have to when he tries this case really keep it simple 38:01 for the jury and it really is a simple case this isn't a complicated case and that's what any prosecutor does is you 38:08 you simplify it so that anyone can understand it and and you have to do it 38:13 in a way that again shows this isn't inadvertent this isn't okay you know Donald Trump is going to say well I can 38:20 declassify things with my mind you know that defense will easily be debunked uh 38:26 and like I said venues off the table which is good and you know Donald Trump has come out and said also the 38:32 presidential records act allows him to possess these documents I guess that's going to be one of his defenses well 38:38 anyone can read the presidential records act it's written in plain English not legalese and it very clearly it says the 38:45 opposite of what he's saying and so the jury will not you know will be sworn to follow the law 38:52 um but you know but Jack Smith has to get this case going and has to get this going quickly because once uh if it has 38:59 to happen before the general election um and hopefully before the the nominating process because otherwise 39:06 they'll have to press pause and it will not get tried if he is elected president 39:11 and of course if a republican wins uh they could pardon him or stop the prosecution 39:17 um these charges are very serious he faces over 400 years in prison if 39:23 convicted of all of them but of course you know people who have been charged with this type of of crime before it 39:29 didn't get anywhere near that but certainly I've never seen a case this serious of somebody who held the highest 39:36 office in the country and swore to uphold the law so so who knows what he will get and 39:43 um and there's just one other thing I want to talk about which is something you know uh I I watched um Ben's hot 39:50 Take On Eileen Cannon and how he's not worried if she is ultimately the judge 39:57 uh so let's talk a little bit about about what is going to happen if she's ultimately the judge and what are some 40:04 of the Mischief rulings she can do in this case so number one as Ben and 40:09 Michael hope both said I can't believe I called you Michael I always just call you popoc but his popock and Ben just 40:14 said it's not clear that she's going to ultimately end up with the case but 40:20 there's a couple of issues with this if she does end up with the case so number 40:25 one uh she could be um for the reasons Ben has talked about in his hot takes and I'm sure we'll 40:31 we'll talk about more here in detail uh there could be an issue that she has to be recused from the case because she has 40:38 already shown um that she's not competent to you know 40:43 to to have the case and I think that um you know I think that she has made a 40:50 couple of rulings in the prior it's a civil case that she had right the there 40:55 was the execution of a search warrant and then she inserted herself in a civil proceeding and appointed a self 41:00 um a special master and was reversed so I think there's a chance that you can bring a like like Ben has said you can 41:07 bring a uh a an action to recuse her from this case because she has shown 41:14 that she's uh biased and not competent to to hear this case so I think there's a good chance of that uh but also like 41:22 say she's not recused from this case and she does take this case you know there is some Mischief she can do and there 41:28 are ruling she first of all she can delay it you know so that it doesn't happen before uh before the election 41:35 which would be potentially fatal to this to this um prosecution 41:40 she could rule for example that the um you know if you were called Barrel Howe 41:46 ruled uh all the attorney-client conversations between 41:52 um between Evan Corcoran and Trump and others and Trump they fall under the crime fraud exception which is why the 41:59 doj got all of that evidence and that testimony well that doesn't that ruling 42:04 doesn't follow it's not the law of the case because that that had that case 42:09 this is a trial judge who can make trial rulings so she can reverse that if she 42:15 wanted now I don't think she will but she can she can create Mischief the 42:20 other possibility is she wants to redeem herself if she keeps this case and suddenly becomes a real judge and wants 42:26 to because she was raked through the coals by the 11th circuit which is the circuit that rules uh her and reversed 42:33 her and and essentially called for Lawless so maybe she wants to redeem herself who knows so there's lots of 42:39 possibilities with with Eileen Cannon but for anyone who says oh a judge just a referee and takes but just calls balls 42:47 and Strikes and you know this is this is um Smith's prosecution there isn't much she can do they're 100 wrong a trial 42:54 judge can make or break a case they can suppress evidence they can rule evidence in admissible important evidence or rule 43:01 other evidence admissible that shouldn't be and a lot of that is not appealable mid-trial you have to wait until appeal 43:07 and if there's an acquittal there's no appeal for Jack Smith so uh let's hope 43:13 and pray that it's not Eileen Cannon I don't trust her I think she's a terrible judge and I think she can harm this case 43:20 significantly and even possibly make it so it not go to trial so whatever anyone can do to 43:27 um to figure out how to get her off I think it'll be uh it'll be the best 43:33 thing for justice um I think uh I think at that at this 43:39 point um that's about all I I the comments I have to say I'm going to bring in my my 43:44 my co-hosts um but I think that's those are my overall observations and comments about 43:50 about this case about this indictment and about this prosecution
[Ben Meiselas] well I think the analysis both from you Michael 43:58 popock from you Karen Friedman agnifolo is incredible um one of the cases that I think the 44:05 prosecutors are going to lean on in trying to get Eileen Cannon recused is a 44:11 2006 case called U.S versus Martin and I want to talk about it because it's 44:17 binding 11th circuit precedent on the issue of recusal or reassignment of a 44:23 judge where a judge has made multiple rulings in the past that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has overruled 44:30 so it seems to be directly on point but I also want to touch upon sipa which you 44:35 men because I think we're going to be hearing a lot about sifa this is a case involving the theft of classified 44:42 information top secret information as you mentioned Karen it stands for the classified information procedures act 44:50 we're going to be hearing a lot about that and I think in particular uh section 6A and section 6C which 44:59 basically deal with the hearing regarding classified information and whether or not stipulated facts could be 45:08 substituted in place of actually showing a jury classified information while 45:14 preserving the due process rights of uh criminal defendants in the case there is 45:21 a whole procedure for how the different parties petition to have a document be 45:27 determined as classified information and again this is where if judge Eileen Cannon is conducting the initial review 45:34 there could be some Mischief done there but sipa also has a process where 45:40 petitions are made to the Circuit Court given the unique nature of classified 45:45 information but in theory what the substitution does so that jury is and 45:52 the public are not actually exposed to the highly classified information they 45:57 get a stipulated set of facts or there's some other way to convey the exact same information about what the documents are 46:04 so for example when we go to the 31 counts on page 28 of the indictment and 46:12 they talk about these records at page 2829 they go you know documents relating to military records of an adversary 46:19 military records of an ally nuclear records that description would be 46:24 similar to what a substituted stipulated set of facts can be so everybody will 46:30 start introducing that term sipa the classified information's uh procedures 46:35 act and I want want to give my own view about Eileen Cannon and I want to go 46:40 over a little bit of additional facts that are in that speaking indictment 46:45 that was just unsealed that and more after this quick break let's take a quick break to talk about our next 46:51 partner zbiotics now if you're like me you've probably skipped a workout because of drinks the night before like 46:57 it happens but if you're committed to your Healthy routine you need zbiotics zebiotics pre-alcohol probiotic is the 47:05 world's first genetically engineered probiotic it was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings 47:11 after 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save 10 off the journey pack today 50:10 welcome back to Legal AF we are live I want to thank Karen Friedman agnifolo 50:16 for her analysis unfortunately Karen had to go so you just got me and popock here 50:24 um but I really always love uh to hear from Karen Friedman agniflo and by the way remember she was the first person I 50:32 remember that day so vividly last November when everyone was saying who's this Jack Smith guy Merrick Garland is 50:39 just trying to you know you know put this on someone else so that they could you know you know not actually charge 50:44 Donald Trump and Karen Friedman agnifola was the first voice that pushed back on 50:50 that and pushed back on it powerfully and then the large media Network started catching up to it and saying hey this 50:57 this Karen Friedman agnifilo is right and I was like yeah she ran the Manhattan District Attorney's office she was like the acting Manhattan district 51:03 attorney she was the number two of course she's right Karen Friedman agnifolo is absolutely the best where we 51:09 last left off before where we took that brief break I was talking about the case 51:14 law in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals that's the court of appeals the circuit court that uh supervises or oversees 51:23 Florida federal courts among other federal courts like those in Georgia and 51:28 I talked about The Binding precedent on reassignment and recusal here and it is 51:34 very much in favor of Eileen Cannon recusing herself whether she recuses 51:39 herself on her own she's previously has demonstrated a propensity for not doing 51:44 the right thing will special counsel Jack Smith on his own seek the recusal 51:50 or will the doj Seeker recusal motion or will the 11th circuit kind of Sue a sponte or a presiding judge basically 51:58 say no Eileen Cannon you are not on this case and uh and and demand a 52:04 reassignment and make the reassignment happen but here's what happened in this U.S versus Martin case on section 4 52:11 reassignment the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals reviews the record in that case where a district court judge continued 52:19 to make rulings in a in a sentencing matter that the 11th Circuit Court of 52:24 Appeals continued to overrule not once but twice for the 11th Circuit Court of Appeal said you're not following the 52:30 guidelines you're not following for whatever reason with respect to this specific defendant who by the way was 52:36 not the defendant to appointed you to the position but you keep making the 52:41 incorrect ruling and we're giving you the guidelines so finally in this section the 11th circuit set our settled 52:47 practice is to direct a specific Judge to reassign a case you know whereas here 52:53 the district court on multiple occasions has been overruled and reprimanded by 52:59 the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and let's not forget judge Eileen Cannon was not just overruled once by the 11 53:06 circuit court bills there are two orders by the 11th Circuit Court of appeals stating that Eileen Cannon never had 53:13 jurisdiction in the first place that she intentionally interfered with the 53:19 Department of Justice's criminal investigation and by the way not in just any all matter in this matter in the 53:26 search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago by the Department of Justice at Mar-A-Lago back in August 8th of 2022. that's where 53:33 she improperly illegally unlawfully interfered with two 11th Circuit Court 53:39 of Appeal orders saying that she impermissibly and improperly interfered and didn't file and didn't follow 11th 53:45 circuit precedent I I think that the 11th circuit will not want her to be a 53:51 stain on that circuit court and as a result I think they will ultimately I think that she will be recused however 53:59 I do think while there is a ton of Mischief as Karen mentioned that a district court judge could bring I do 54:06 think that and again this is why I'm very very confident here um this indictment is so powerful and so 54:15 bulletproof you even had people like Jonathan Turley who is the right wing uh 54:21 kind of legal spokesperson for all things kind of Mega legal conspiracy 54:26 theories it's so unfortunate that that's what happened to Jonathan turley's career he's a con law professor at the 54:32 George Washington University where I went to undergrad not where I went to uh law school I went to the competing 54:38 school at Georgetown but um I I think that when even Jonathan Turley looks at this and goes wow this 54:46 is very very damaging and he did it on Fox that speaks volume so I want to go 54:51 into oh and by the way have you seen this New York Post cover as well Chamber 54:56 of Secrets um and it's showing the photographs from the indictment uh and these are the 55:04 boxes that are in the bathroom right by the shower uh in Mar-A-Lago and by the 55:10 way you know you have a lot of right wing you know disinformation uh sources 55:15 all basically saying looks like the FBI did it again is it the FBI is taking 55:20 these photographs and making a messy no though if you just read the lawsuit if 55:27 you just read like we have the photo up now for those who are listening and audio and obviously for all of our uh 55:32 all of our YouTube Watchers you can actually see this but this is Walt nauta 55:38 texting another Donald Trump employee so Trump employee who's been indicted now to texting Trump employee too saying I 55:46 opened the door and found this it's Trump's employees photos isn't a doj photo and then for all of the people who 55:53 say oh um you know I don't see any classified information just read the indictment 56:00 like that's the thing with these right-wing people you know they lie and 56:05 they don't show their viewers the actual text because if you read this the next 56:10 sentence says nauta also attached two photographs he took of the spell Trump 56:15 employee two replied oh oh oh no and I'm sorry POTUS had my phone one of the 56:23 photographs now detected to Trump employee to is depicted below with the visible classified information 56:30 redacted Trump's unlawful retention of this document is charged in count eight 56:35 of this indictment so it is redacted that is why you can't see it in the photo but if you look on the uh kind of 56:43 the the the the right of the box where the documents are flowing out of you can 56:49 see the cover page with the classified border and it is redacted they're not 56:54 referring to the newspapers the issue is is that the classified information is being hidden within the newspaper 57:00 clippings and the classified information page is redacted and if you just read the document it says that that's why 57:07 it's important that we read this document let's let's just read some portions of this document okay let's go 57:14 to paragraph uh three of this which I think is one of the most powerful of the 57:21 paragraphs which says the classified documents Trump stored in his boxes included information regarding defensive 57:28 weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries United States nuclear poke programs potential 57:35 vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack and plans for possible retaliation in 57:43 response to a foreign attack the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put out risk 57:51 the National Security of the United States Foreign Relations the safety of the United States military and human 57:57 sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection 58:02 methods and then if you go to page 28 and 29 of this indictment on the 31 58:08 counts for the willful retention of the records page 28 and 29 like they list 58:14 what is in paragraph three like that's why you got to read these things and you got to follow you got to follow them so 58:21 here's an example uh count number three for willful retention of national uh 58:26 information National Defense information and it gives the classification top 58:32 secret sensitive information no foreign meaning it can't even be shown to any 58:37 foreign governments it's so top secret even among their intelligence communities undated document concerning 58:43 military capabilities of a foreign country on the United States with handwritten annotations in black marker 58:50 okay that's Donald Trump and black mark are doing it as you go to count five document dated June 2020 concerning the 58:57 nuclear capabilities of a foreign of a foreign country uh count six document 59:03 dated June 4th 2020 concerning White House intelligence briefings relating to 59:08 various foreign countries so on and so forth with all of the counts they're all like that going to paragraph 6A and 6 B 59:17 of the complaint um in July 2021 at Trump National Golf 59:22 Club in Bedminster New Jersey during an audio recorded meeting with the writer a publisher and two members of his staff 59:29 none of whom possessed the security clearance Trump showed and described a plan of attack that Trump said was 59:35 prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official Trump told the individuals that the plan 59:40 was highly confidential and secret Trump also said as president I could have Declassified it and now I can't you know 59:47 but this is still a secret and then 6B in August or September 2021 at the 59:53 Bedminster Club Trump showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security 59:59 clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the 1:00:04 representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get 1:00:11 uh too close and then if we then go uh kind of deeper into the complaint where 1:00:18 we actually see from 6A and from 6B let's turn to page 1:00:26 22 and 23 for a second these are messages text messages as well from Walt 1:00:33 now to members of Donald Trump's family and on page 22 and on page 23 as popoc 1:00:42 described earlier these are Communications with it seems to be Melania where she's saying Donald Trump 1:00:48 wants very specific documents polled Donald Trump wants to uh you know bring 1:00:54 certain ones with him but not the full boxes and so again you have very detailed factual allegations here here's 1:01:01 the actual uh a message on May 30th 2022 at 12 33 PM a trump family member texted 1:01:07 now to good afternoon Walt happy Memorial Day I saw you put boxes to POTUS room just FYI and I will tell him 1:01:14 as well not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the plane we will not have room for them uh plane will be full 1:01:22 with luggage thank you and so again they're talking about Donald Trump taking very specific documents and this 1:01:28 was right before June 3rd of 2022 where the Department of Justice showed up at 1:01:33 Mar-A-Lago to obtain all of the classified records in response to in 1:01:39 response to The subpoena finally I just want to show you from that allegation 1:01:44 that we had just mentioned 6A and 6B turn to page 15 and 16 uh for a second 1:01:52 and when you look at 15 it has the entire audio recording of Donald Trump bragging about this classified 1:01:58 information I mean just just look at these at this this dangerous idiocracy here Trump goes well with uh talking 1:02:06 about a senior military official who we believe to be General milley chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he goes well 1:02:12 with the senior military official let me see that I'll show you an example he said that I wanted to attack country 1:02:19 a and we believe country a to be Iran isn't it amazing I have a big pile of 1:02:24 papers this thing just came up look this was him they presented me this this is 1:02:29 off the Record but they presented me with this this was him this was the defense department and him and then some 1:02:36 random writer who's like ghost writing a book for Mark Meadows who Donald Trump is showing this classified information 1:02:43 about a plan of attack on Iran goes wow and then Donald Trump goes we looked at 1:02:49 some this was him this wasn't done by me this was him all sorts of stuff pages long look Donald Trump is showing him 1:02:56 here the classified information and a staffer goes and Trump goes wait a 1:03:01 minute let's see here and then the staffer like starts laughing and Trump goes I just found this isn't that 1:03:08 amazing this totally wins my case you know and the staffer who has to be like a yes person with him goes and Trump 1:03:16 goes except it is like highly confidential and then the staffer goes yeah and starts laughing and Trump goes 1:03:23 secret this is secret information look at this you attack and and by the way 1:03:28 isn't this incredible and then the staffer goes yeah and the Trump goes I was just thinking because we were 1:03:34 talking about it and you know he said he wanted to attack Iran and what staffer you did Trump this was done by the 1:03:41 military and given to me uh I think we can probably write staffer I don't know we'll have to see yeah we'll have to try 1:03:47 to then Trump goes declassify it and staffer goes figure it out yeah then Trump goes see as president I could have 1:03:55 Declassified it and the staffer goes yeah Trump now I can't you know but this 1:04:01 is still a secret the staffer yeah now we have a problem Trump isn't that 1:04:06 interesting this is life or death stuff folks this is life or death stuff you know how many 1:04:13 of our assets people in our military people who defend our country could have 1:04:18 been and may have been killed because of this and they're laughing at it and Trump's 1:04:24 showing it to just random people don't have security clearances and if he's just showing it to random people and 1:04:30 saying that kind of lunatic stuff imagine what he's doing on a daily basis 1:04:35 when it wasn't recorded like that horrific horrific horrific but I just wanted to drill down on Those portions 1:04:42 finally I just want to mention that Donald Trump's lawyers have left uh Jim 1:04:48 trustee that is and John Rowley who were the leaders of his uh defense in 1:04:54 connection with the investigation prior to the uh indictment being issued and 1:04:59 then unsealed Donald Trump put out a message that seemed to imply that he fired them and then I wrote on my 1:05:06 Twitter account I go how soon after do we find out that they resigned like literally within three minutes later 1:05:11 they stated that they tender their resignation and they claim the reason they are resigning is because special 1:05:19 counsel Jack Smith venued this he filed the case in the southern district of Florida and that's why they don't 1:05:26 practice there is what they said in their resignation which absolutely makes no sense to me because the lawyer who 1:05:32 Donald Trump now has leading the legal team Todd Blanche is a New York Wall 1:05:37 Street lawyer not a Miami lawyer not a Florida lawyer and Jim trustee previously was handling Donald Trump 1:05:45 cases in Florida in federal court in Florida as well as before the 11th 1:05:50 Circuit Court of Appeal so I don't buy that at all and then popoc finally what what what what do we look forward to 1:05:57 next week we have the arraignment can you just maybe briefly explain what what an arraignment is there's no there's not 1:06:03 going to be cameras in the federal court building there aren't cameras in federal courthouses I think they should be so 1:06:08 what what happens on Tuesday all right well let me start there and I'll back up a couple things Karen said a couple things that you said that I thought were 1:06:14 interesting that I can amplify we're gonna have an arraignment on Tuesday we're going to know who the initial judge is going to be the the initial 1:06:21 part of the arraignment is usually done by a by a Magistrate Judge even though it says Reinhardt who was the Magistrate 1:06:28 Judge that issued the search warrant I don't think it's going to be Reinhardt the speculation 1:06:34 and people that practice down there think it's going to be Chief Magistrate Judge Edwin Torres who unsealed the 1:06:41 indictment um and uh they'll be kind of the what we call you know first day orders let's 1:06:48 talk about Trial in this case Gentlemen let's talk ladies and Gentlemen let's talk about when when it can happen uh 1:06:54 motion practice related to that a song about pre-trial um conditions of release from arrest 1:07:01 because he is going to be Donald Trump will be arrested second time in two months indicted second time in two 1:07:08 months he has to go through the same process DNA fingerprinting uh pictures and all that it's it's less uh it's more 1:07:16 stringent than even what happened to him in the Manhattan side he'll do that with the federal officers come back through 1:07:23 the doors with his attorneys whoever they may be in addition to Todd Blanche where is Chris kais by the way Chris 1:07:30 kais is a Florida lawyer that he gave over five million dollars to through his political action committee because 1:07:35 supposedly he was a Florida lawyer that knew what he was doing he's nowhere to be found Lindsey Halligan is a insurance 1:07:42 defense lawyer a very young one at that in Fort Lauderdale even though she's been brought to various meetings there's 1:07:48 no way she's going to remain in the case so but we'll see who the lawyers are going to be on Tuesday who the Magistrate's going to be on Tuesday 1:07:54 ultimately who the judge if if this judge issue is not resolved by her recusing between now and Tuesday and and 1:08:02 we've been involved with cases Ben you and I've been involved with cases where we thought we had one judge federally and then they recused or disqualified 1:08:08 themselves for various reasons we had another judge or or two other judges we've been involved with the cases where a third judge got a sign within a week 1:08:15 so I think that could all get sorted out even before you can't bury the lead there of what the case was it was when 1:08:21 we sued Marjorie Taylor green and she ended up settling with us um 1:08:27 I mean like let's talk about that okay so I forgot that was the lawyer for 1:08:32 Midas Touch sued Marjorie Taylor the green for blocking us on Twitter Marjorie Taylor green settled with us 1:08:38 paid us ten thousand dollars um and then we took the ten thousand dollars and then we donated it to uh two 1:08:45 groups that uh were for uh supportive responsible gun ownership but we had 1:08:51 three results based on the signed settlement agreement is not allowed to block anybody ever 1:08:56 again on her Twitter account so anyway back to you but we had three judges within five days so I think it gets 1:09:02 sorted out on Tuesday matches when I when I when I hear the reporting for those that are in the room I won't be 1:09:08 able to get down to Miami for this one um I'll know Edwin Torres magistrate because Edwin Torres is not Eileen 1:09:15 Cannon's magistrate when she goes to Miami very rarely she is the least senior as we've talked about in the past 1:09:20 of the 15 judges in sorry seniority she is still the least senior because there hasn't been a new appointment by Biden 1:09:26 the southern district because there hasn't been an opening there hasn't been an expansion of those seats so that's going to tell us a lot she either gets 1:09:33 out chief judge altanaga takes her out under the discretion that the chief judge has under the local rules and 1:09:39 administrative orders or ultimately on motion by the Department of Justice on the case 1:09:45 law that you cited Ben the 11th circuit ultimately takes her out so I don't think we have to worry about her but if 1:09:51 if Jack Smith comes into the room and uh Jay Bratt who signed the certificate of 1:09:57 trial lawyer which we have here in the back in which he picked West Palm Beach by the way as the venue as the Court 1:10:05 division within the southern district said it's it's about a 21-day trial this 1:10:11 is part of the speedy trial that Jack Smith said in his press conference when he said we believe that people are 1:10:17 innocent until they're proven guilty so we got to get to trial quickly in order to do that they are going to go like 1:10:22 full steam ahead as Karen outlined to get this thing to trial whether it's cited in Miami or back in West Palm 1:10:28 Beach whoever it's going to be and if it's not Eileen Canada and it is in West Palm Beach it probably rotates to judge 1:10:34 Middlebrooks wouldn't that be a special delight for everybody judgmental Brooks who already sanctioned Donald Trump once 1:10:40 for civil filings that had no merit so um we'll see how that plays out on Tuesday will he be detained pre-trial 1:10:48 pending the trial no not based on the crimes even as egregious as they are 1:10:53 will they pick up his passport it'll be discussed will they limit his travel it'll be discussed he has to assure 1:11:01 everybody that he'll appear back in these courtrooms for the various proceedings almost all of them that are 1:11:07 done live and not by video so he'll have to appear for those and they'll set a potentially set an initial trial date or 1:11:15 come back for a hearing in 30 days for an initial trial date and set that as 1:11:20 well government wants to do what they say is a four-week trial maybe six weeks or eight weeks but 1:11:26 that's it and they want to do it in you know uh early 2024 I'm sure they've of 1:11:32 course Donald Trump's other concern is he's got another criminal trial in Mar in uh in May of 2024 1:11:39 in New York May March March of 2024. so you got all that going on in terms of 1:11:45 the accounts that we talked about I think it's important as Jay Bratt signed 1:11:52 in his own filing the penalty sheet God I never thought I'd see the day whether it be a penalty sheet a sign that Donald 1:11:58 Trump and federal court most of the Espionage Act claims are 10 years but 1:12:05 for each count uh with supervised release of three years and 250 000 in fines the 1:12:11 obstruction of justice conspiracy is 20 years withholding a document a record 20 1:12:16 years concealing a document 20 years concealing a document in a federal investigation 20 years scheme to conceal 1:12:24 that's five years and there's a false statement is five years you had it all up it's like you know 400 years in 1:12:30 prison if they were done not concurrently but uh that's the government's position in terms of the 1:12:36 things you hit all the highlights but I just want to give a couple that were interesting to me the the 1:12:43 doj's indictment through the grand jury says emphatically that Donald Trump 1:12:49 misled the Secret Service as well that the Secret Service didn't even know he had highly classified top secret 1:12:55 documents that's one I was shocked by the level of involvement personal 1:13:01 involvement by Donald Trump in the search for documents in with holding 1:13:07 documents for the National Archive the president the presidential records himself selecting the 15 boxes in the 1:13:14 dress rehearsal that he would try to serve up to the National Archive that he personally Donald Trump reviewed those 1:13:21 that He personally gave the commands and had boxes uh 80 of them removed from the storage 1:13:29 room and only uh 50 of them returned and Lord knows what happened within those 1:13:35 boxes those were based on Donald Trump's personal review of those documents the 1:13:40 the quality of the evidence that they have developed to be able to say that emphatically in the complaint was 1:13:47 mind-boggling I always suspected that he would be involved but that there would be levels of buffers between him and 1:13:52 others no he was doing the bring me two more boxes texting himself to Walt now 1:13:58 to give me another box I need I need a new lid for one of these boxes and then 1:14:03 you know get him to Bedminster so they were the shell game of moving them all out of the White House and then him him 1:14:12 Donald Trump picking which ones would go back to the National Archive holding back 70 or 80 other boxes including 1:14:19 classified but even screwing that up because they had classified documents in the initial return to the National 1:14:24 Archive which led to the doj J referral which led to the summons and then to the search warrant and then just the 1:14:30 brazenness in which he thought he'd be protected by attorney-client privilege to tell Evan Corcoran hey when you get 1:14:37 that envelope went back to your hotel room if kind of poof some of them disappeared you know that wouldn't be 1:14:44 bad uh like the Hillary Clinton I.T guy do that I mean the fact that he would 1:14:50 even say that out loud and thank God we've got judges Ben sitting in the District of Columbia Chief Judges like 1:14:56 Barrel Howell and now Jeb bosberg who who listened to this evidence early on 1:15:01 we didn't have privy to it and were able to decide that there was a crime or fraud perpetrated likely by the 1:15:09 president of the United States in in the way he dealt with his attorney and thank God Evan Corcoran he didn't know it at 1:15:16 the time but that his 50 pages of handwritten detailed notes about his interaction with Donald Trump and his 1:15:22 audio musings thank God they got turned over to the government and we we said when that first happened I think you 1:15:28 remember the the legal AF Ben we were like wow notes attorney notes I mean I'm 1:15:33 thinking well maybe some random scribblings 50 pages of detail this guy was like methodical the other thing that 1:15:39 was fascinating about it and really damning for Donald Trump for being the indictment and it may answer the question that that 1:15:46 Karen posed before she left which is what was the motive the motive apparently looks to me like these were 1:15:54 my papers these are mine he said to his staff these are mine mine mine mine he 1:16:03 told his lawyers Corcoran so you have what do you got to do for the subpoena response well I gotta look through all 1:16:09 of your documents uh Mr President I don't really want this is quote quoted in the indictment I don't really want 1:16:14 you looking in my boxes I don't want you really looking in my papers they're mine so this mind this possessiveness this 1:16:22 narcissism is how he is how he treated these documents his own staff joked and 1:16:29 this is in the indictment referencing the movie A Beautiful Mind about John Nash 1:16:34 the um the troubled um economist and if you people remember the scene in 1:16:40 the movie where he's lost his literally lost his mind and is living in a shack behind his house where he writes on the 1:16:47 Windows of his house all sorts of crazy formulas and he's and the house is just packed with with with you know documents 1:16:54 piling out of things so they joked that they called it the Beautiful Mind paper boxes which were just stuff that this 1:17:02 guy in larceny Trump threw into the boxes spilling out with classified a top 1:17:07 secret he wanted the Beautiful Mind boxes for his own that whether it was a 1:17:12 Memento he thought he was going back to the presidency he wanted to show it off transactionally or use it whatever 1:17:18 that's the motive because otherwise right doesn't make any sense like why is he just give it back what he doesn't 1:17:24 give it back because he he believes that he owns it and not the American people and sees nothing wrong and then finally 1:17:30 Ben I love that they hoisted him on his own patar Donald Trump and Jack Smith's the way they wrote this really elegant 1:17:36 efficient word economy every word every word every sentence Advance the cause 1:17:43 there is no wasted sentences in this indictment very very elegantly written but simply written in the narrative I 1:17:50 love that they said to him hey um you you yourself in 2016 and 2017 2018 made a lot of statements about 1:17:57 classified documents you made a lot of statements about how you would protect the national interests and how people 1:18:04 who leave office that continue to have access to classified documents would only you know who have a political 1:18:11 partisan role in their future life should never have access to these 1:18:16 classified documents that is a that is a a moment of inadvertent self 1:18:23 self-admission by Donald Trump because he just described himself leaving office having no reason to hold on to these 1:18:30 things he's a partisan running for office holding on a top secret documents really really well done everything we it 1:18:37 was about I I learned about 40 new things that we 1:18:42 couldn't even have speculated about the deep deep involvement personal involvement up to his elbows Donald 1:18:49 Trump himself in the document scandal yeah and I definitely think the motive 1:18:55 also and you touched on it was transactional was money you know the 1:19:00 examples that we have in this indictment um were Donald Trump just showing it 1:19:05 around like trophies and bragging it about it as a tool of trying to have 1:19:10 continued relevance based on being a malignant narcissist hey isn't this cool I I really am the winner here like not 1:19:17 only is it so dangerous like just a complete and utter idiocracy you know which is what we always call out here on 1:19:24 the Midas dead network but Donald Trump has said before he's like Nixon traded his documents for 18 million dollars so 1:19:30 clearly in the back of his mind he had views as a prior criminal who held the 1:19:36 office um and Donald Trump makes up these stories in his head and Donald Trump again what we have in the indictment are 1:19:42 two examples where it was recorded of of him bragging about these documents and 1:19:47 showing it those are exemplars those are not the totality of instances is When 1:19:53 Donald Trump did this they just it's on tape so how could a jury ever go well that didn't happen we here it is play 1:20:00 tape but if he did it in those two instances I think the point of those is think about every time he uh he he did 1:20:07 that uh before as well and and would continue to do it if he's not stopped 1:20:12 you mentioned uh the ruling by the federal judges in Washington DC 1:20:18 presiding over the grand jury finding that the crime fraud exception applied that Donald Trump was using his lawyers 1:20:25 for the commission of ongoing criminal conduct such that they couldn't assert 1:20:30 the attorney-client privilege to Shield documents and try to preserve their their class their confidentiality from 1:20:38 being turned over to the Department of Justice and a lot of those rulings were by federal judge Beryl Howell who used 1:20:44 to be the presiding judge uh in Washington D.C over uh the criminal 1:20:50 grand juries there um and now it's someone by the name of James boseberg who goes by Jeb boseberg who presides 1:20:56 over the grand juries as the presiding judge in Washington D.C District Court and he's made a number of very important 1:21:03 and favorable rulings in the other case that's still being investigated by 1:21:08 special counsel Jack Smith for Donald Trump's election interference for Donald 1:21:13 Trump's attempts to overthrow our democracy and we've got some insight 1:21:19 into the type of powerful evidence that has already been presented before first 1:21:25 judge Beryl Howell and now judge bowsberg in that case that investigation 1:21:30 is proceeding we expect the same way we were predicting the indictments on the 1:21:36 case involving Trump's theft of government records and obstruction of justice to land pretty much precisely we 1:21:42 were spot on I think when we if you go back and Rewind the episodes of when we said that one was coming I think we said 1:21:49 May or June you know potentially a little bit later but but definitely definitely summer probably early summer 1:21:54 we all think that the other indictment is going to happen sometime in September 1:21:59 October um maybe late August but we believe there's definitely another indictment 1:22:06 coming from special counsel Jack Smith and again that's from everything for the conduct on January 6 the day of the 1:22:12 Insurrection itself leading up to it wire fraud campaign Finance violations threatening state and local election 1:22:20 officials and uh the fake elector scheme all of the that criminal conduct by 1:22:26 Donald Trump but an order that was just unsealed by judge bosberg and it's very 1:22:32 rare that we get insight into what's going on in the grand jury process so 1:22:37 what judge boseberg did because Pence gave a media interview and there's just 1:22:43 been a lot publicly discussed about um former vice president Pence testifying before the grand jury 1:22:50 Trump's talked about it Pence has talked about it Trump's lawyers have talked about it and so the judge basically got 1:22:56 a motion from media uh interveners who said they want to get their hands on the 1:23:03 transcripts and everything relating to former vice president Pence's uh testimony before the grand jury and the 1:23:09 judge is like look grand jury proceedings are confidential they always are in secret however I can release 1:23:16 portions of the order compelling former vice president Pence to testify where 1:23:22 the court overruled the assertion by former vice president Pence that the 1:23:27 speech and debate clause privilege a privilege for senators and members of 1:23:33 the House of Representatives not to have to testify in other actions and Immunity from uh various types of cases when the 1:23:42 court overruled that largely the court found that the speech and debate clause in a limited sense applied to former 1:23:48 vice president pence in his ceremony role as the president of the Senate so 1:23:55 when he was in that capacity and leading up in his preparation for his role as 1:24:01 having these ceremonial duty of counting the electoral votes the court said for 1:24:07 that limited purpose I'll acknowledge the speech and debate clause applies but for everything else 1:24:13 and everything else is what special counsel Jack Smith really cared about all of Pence's observations of Donald 1:24:20 Trump committing crimes all of Pence Donald Trump threatening Pence all of 1:24:25 that is fair game and uh former vice president Pence can testify on that I 1:24:31 just want to show you just a few pages here where the judge seems to you know certainly hint at the evidence before 1:24:39 them that yes it's fair game because Donald Trump was committing crimes um so if you go to page 16 of uh 1:24:46 bozeberg's order that was just unsealed again this order comes from March of 1:24:52 this year but it's now first being unsealed on Friday last Friday and the 1:24:57 court basically says having set out the ground rules the court may now get down to business it assesses these specific 1:25:04 topics and those are redacted in order to provide guidance to the parties going forward and note several areas within 1:25:11 those categories that the privilege does or does not cover the bottom line is that the conversations exhorting pens to 1:25:19 reject electors on January 6 are not protected they fall under Brewster's 1:25:25 rule Brewster's just a the Brewster is a case involving a senator who is taking 1:25:30 bribes okay so that's what Brewster refers to they fall under Brewster's rule that Communications 1:25:37 urging a legislator to act unlawfully or Ultra viries are not Preparatory or at 1:25:44 most only incidentally so to a legislative function there is no dispute 1:25:50 in this case that Pence lack the authority to reject electoral votes then 1:25:55 there's a redaction indeed as Pence described in his book he never believed that the vice president's role on 1:26:00 January 6 was anything more than ceremonial so here the basis of the 1:26:06 Court's ruling is that where someone is being instructed to act unlawfully those 1:26:12 are not legislative in nature so they're analogizing Trump to this other case 1:26:17 where someone acted unlawfully and then finally uh the uh if you go to page 19 1:26:24 it goes and explains this privilege that Pence is a side is citing up and and how the court is 1:26:32 construing it applies in a way that is Broad enough to ensure the historic Independence of the legislative branch 1:26:39 but narrow enough to guard against the excess of those who would corrupt the 1:26:47 process by corrupting its members okay so in compelling former vice president 1:26:53 Pence to testify what the court is saying there is that Donald Trump was 1:27:00 corrupting the process by corrupting its members if Pence was trying to claim an 1:27:07 immunity like being the president of the Senate it's subtle but very very powerful and tells you that that case is 1:27:15 moving towards uh very very serious charge as well and I'll pass it to you popoc but if we saw 38 charges that were 1:27:24 brought in this case in the southern district of Florida for the willful retention of National Defense 1:27:30 information and obstruction of justice I've always said I thought you're going to see hundreds of counts in connection 1:27:36 with the January 6th case that's being investigated I think you will see hundreds 200 300 you know close 1:27:44 definitely I think close to 200 counts uh in that uh in that indictment popock 1:27:49 I think you just made a hot tick for the all the Pence things there I don't think that's it you're done salty cut it 1:27:55 you're ready to go but let me see what I can hit I want to make a statement as you and I 1:28:01 have been talking about things for over two years to the audience members globally and 1:28:06 locally what we are describing in sometimes excruciating but hopefully 1:28:12 entertaining detail is a justice system that works 1:28:17 I know that we talk about you know how many times is he going to get away with it Donald Trump how many times is he 1:28:24 going to be yes there'll be a suit but will he will he be forced by a jury to pay anything the answer to that has been 1:28:31 yes look at all the suits that he files 90 of them attacking the election will 1:28:37 maybe one of them will be successful they weren't um maybe he'll his appeals to even to 1:28:44 the Supreme Court that he has packed with Maga right wing six to three majority will give him a uh will give 1:28:52 him wind at a sale it doesn't the federal judges on the Circuit Court some of them are appointed by him maybe 1:28:59 they'll come to his rescue in response to something they haven't they won't and 1:29:05 they can't and so we talk about Eileen cannon at length for good reason and she 1:29:10 was a poor example of the federal Judiciary at a moment that was important to our nation's history but 1:29:17 for every for everything else that you and I have talked about in the last two years involving Donald Trump trump his 1:29:24 henchmen and his cronies the justice department especially the federal one but even state 1:29:30 works so and it's something to be proud of and I'm proud today I know there's a whole bunch of lawyers and lackeys and 1:29:37 and Hangar honors and bootlickers for Donald Trump like Alina Haba who got on television they're still doing it Carrie 1:29:43 Lake made a comment during a press rally that there's a second amendment solution to Merrick Garland and Jack Smith's 1:29:48 indictment of Donald Trump I mean that sounds like the Secret Service should start opening an investigation into 1:29:54 Kerry Lake's threats against the Department of Justice and they should um so the the right-wing Maga are coming 1:30:01 out with oh sad day sad day in America sad day for justice I'm I'm ashamed to be a lawyer it's it's the opposite this 1:30:09 is what the founding fathers wanted it is a major protection guardrail firewall 1:30:14 firewall for our democracy the conscience of our democracy and every time you and I tell tell this of what's 1:30:22 Happening whether it's Jeb Bose Barrel Howell the judges of the DC Circuit Court even the judges of the Supreme 1:30:28 Court in rejecting Donald Trump's and treaties to interfere in Justice we are 1:30:34 watching this in real time some people get frustrated and get fatigued and like I'm tired of hearing about it tell me 1:30:40 when he's in jail but this is the process the journey that we're on together this journey that we're on together is 1:30:47 our justice system it's like the old John Lennon line life is what is life is 1:30:53 what happens when you're making plans we are in this is the justice system it all 1:30:58 if it's in all of its glory and and and warts and all but at the end of the day 1:31:04 when adults are in the room wearing the black robes and you have uh lawyers like 1:31:10 some of the finest at the Department of Justice handling the case with Jack Smith good things come out of it and thank God 1:31:16 that they do this is our this is why the rest of the world should be proud of our system of justice because we just 1:31:23 indicted twice in two months a former president of the United States for the 1:31:28 first time in American history and although it may not mean something so those that are continuing to run for 1:31:33 office and to grift it means something to everyone else that cares about democracy and Justice and we are so 1:31:40 proud that all of the legal a efforts everybody watching this who has been 1:31:45 with us from day one or if you're just joining us now welcome um but none of this is possible you know 1:31:51 without you this community this pro-democracy community that speaks the 1:31:56 truth you know Michael Popa Karen Friedman agnifolo myself my brothers all of the other hosts on the Midas touch 1:32:01 Network we just got sick and tired of large media networks gaslighting us and not giving us the facts and not spending 1:32:08 the time to explain the justice system and not spending the time to go through what's actually stated in the complaint 1:32:16 and showing the photos and explaining the complexity and talking about issues that may be difficult or complex but we 1:32:24 ultimately know that that's why that's why you're here you want to learn about that we wanna we wanted the media to be 1:32:31 like that and so when we didn't see the media doing that we just said we're going to create it ourselves so we did it we built the Midas touch Network we 1:32:37 built out legal AF and all of the other shows on this network but most importantly what you built is what's 1:32:44 been most impressive to me and that's real Community a real unapologetically pro-democracy community and I know after 1:32:51 you watch these shows or after you listen to these shows on the Midas touch Network like legal AF you share this 1:32:58 knowledge with your family friends co-workers colleagues you spread the 1:33:03 word you you you let people know these facts so that we can rebut all of the 1:33:09 disinformation out there and we're so grateful for you and so from the bottom of all of our hearts here at legal AF 1:33:16 and the Midas touch Network we say thank you and it's an honor to be working by 1:33:22 your side historic episode today on legal AF we'll see you for the midweek 1:33:27 Edition with Michael popock and Karen Friedman agnifola which is always live on uh Wednesday evenings I'm sure 1:33:34 there's going to be a lot of information to report I'm sure there'll probably will even be a lot of breaking news live 1:33:40 coverage here that we will be bringing to you on Tuesday and perhaps even Monday as we learn more information 1:33:48 make sure you subscribe to the Midas touch Network it's free to subscribe to 1:33:53 our YouTube channel if you watch this on YouTube be sure to subscribe on audio as well wherever podcasts 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Trump’s FEDERAL ARRAIGNMENT Transcript FINALLY Released by Karen Friedman Agnifilo MeidasTouch Jun 15, 2023
Legal AF Host and Former Prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo reports on the newly released transcripts from Trump’s federal indictment arraignment in Miami.
Transcript
transcripts are out I'm Karen Friedman agnifolo from legal AF and we just got the transcripts from the arraignment in federal court of Donald Trump in the southern district of Florida we heard lots of reporting from reporters who were in the room don't forget there were no cameras allowed there was no recording allowed so we did get lots of reporting from people who were in the room but we finally got the transcripts I got to read them myself and so let's talk about exactly what happened in Donald Trump's Federal arraignment in the southern district of Florida so he was arraigned by judge Jonathan Goodman Jack Smith was also there we were are told by reporters he wasn't sitting in the well so he wasn't mentioned in the transcript anywhere but we we know he was there the arraignment started at 2 55 pm and it ended at 3 44 pm and it was in courtroom 13-3 this was both the initial appearance and the arraignment of both Donald Trump and Walt waltin also known as Walt Nauta an initial appearance is the first time you go to court the arraignment is when you are told what your charges are they most of the time happen at the same time but not always so this was both the initial appearance and the arraignment of Donald Trump it was only the initial appearance of Walt Nauta his arraignment has been put over a couple of weeks and I'll tell you why in a minute the lawyers who were there the prosecutors were Jay Bratt David harbach and Julie Edelstein and the lawyers for Donald Trump or Chris kais and Todd Blanche and Stanley Woodward appeared for Walt Nauta pre-trial Services was also there and pre-trial Services is a really important agency that works for the federal government and they interview every single person who's arrested and they make a recommendation to the court about whether the person should be released and if they or or should they be held you know in other words should they be they held in jail pre-trial or should bail be set or are there conditions on their release and pre-trial services will also monitor somebody who's released with conditions so that's what pre-trial Services is I don't know whether or not they interviewed Donald Trump I assume they did because that's part of the standard arrest processing and uh so so we'll get to that in a minute uh when I when we explain what the conditions are that the judge said so the judge started by thanking everyone Under the Sun including the entire literally the entire law enforcement Community uh court reporters everybody just thanked everybody and then he reminded everybody that there's no photos or videos of anyone uh in the room you're not allowed to use devices and that includes people in the spillover room so what that told me is they had a spillover room there was a room which is very common to do if the courtroom's not big enough to hold all the people that there is you know when there's cases that have a lot of interest they open up another room and they and they stream on video what's happening in in the courtroom and so the judge was speaking to both rooms both the people in the courtroom as well as the spillover room that there's no photos no videos no recording whatsoever so they uh the judge took the defendants both Trump and Nauta uh separately and they they didn't in other words he didn't do both at the same time he just did Donald Trump first and he asked Donald Trump's lawyers are they temporarily representing him or are they permanent and that's important because you know sometimes attorneys appear for arraignment only and then uh and then and then a defendant goes and looks for a more permanent lawyer you can also change lawyers at any time but these lawyers Todd Blanche and Chris kise indicated to the judge that they were permanently representing Donald Trump and so they might add new lawyers to the team there was lots of reporting that they're interviewing other lawyers but apparently these two lawyers are in for both the trial and the appeal they said that on the record as well the the judge then said you know normally in this in this uh District people wave the formal reading of the indictment because it's 44 pages long if a defendant doesn't waive the formal reading of the indictment they would have sat there and the judge would have or the clerk would have read every single thing that's in that 44-page indictment however Donald Trump's lawyers said as is very common uh we waive the formal reading of the indictment and entered a plea of not guilty which is also was expected that's obviously he's going to enter a plea of not guilty and he demanded a jury trial and that's a formality that you have to do you demand a jury trial and and so that's noted on the record and he'll get a jury trial the judge then went on to explain what's typical in our district is how he put it so he said you know and so it sounded like he was he was educating both the lawyers who don't necessarily practice their everyday and Donald Trump as well as everybody else who's reading these transcripts knowing that we would read them he wanted to make sure that he was educating everybody so he would say things like uh what what typically happens in our district the typical steps in our district are that the defense would request a standing discover Discovery order is that what your uh what you're requesting Mr Blanche and Mr Blanche would say yes your honor so at standing Discovery order means that uh that there's an order by the judge standing means it's in effect the whole the whole time the whole pendency of the case and in order means it's a court order because only the court can order you to do anything in a criminal case and it's a discovery order which means the government is under an obligation to provide Discovery at the appropriate time to the defense then the judge says and I assume you want a Brady order and he said I assume that the prosecutors know their Brady obligation but I'm doing a standard Brady order as well and Brady is comes from a very famous case Brady versus Maryland which is a Supreme Court case um that's been around for decades and it basically says if a prosecutor has any information in their possession that is exculpatory to the defense they must turn it over and they must turn it over right away you can't hold on to it you have to turn it over at the soonest possible practical time and you have to say I have this information in in my possession that tends to exculpate you means it tends to show your innocence even if you think the person's lying as a prosecutor it's not up to you to say well I think that person's lying I have a witness who came forward and said it wasn't him that's considered Brady you have to turn it over so the judge issued a standard Brady order again standard so then they get to the part and this is the part that that I found frankly somewhat disgraceful uh because they get to the part about bail or Bond right about release because you know everyone was calling this arraignment perfunctory you know and I heard a lot of people say it's just perfunctory it's just an arraignment well you know now I've been a prosecutor for a very long time and now I'm a defense attorney there's nothing at all perfunctory about bail I mean about um about an arraignment you were formally told what your charges are and and you know I tell all my clients and um and frankly you know most as a prosecutor you assume the same I tell my clients bring your toothbrush you don't know there you can't there is there is no way you can assume that you are not going to have bail Set uh in a case or you could be remanded which means you know no amount of money will get you out and means there are no it means you are held and detained period full stop no bail um but oftentimes if you do set bail there are large amounts of money especially in really serious cases so I didn't I'm probably the only person uh who didn't think this but I didn't think it was it was going to be you know no conditions to Donald Trump in a case like this but apparently that's what happened so the judge asked the prosecutor Mr harbach uh you know I'm I'm seeing that you are recommend not recommending any dollar amount uh for bail here and the prosecutor said that is correct your honor and you are recommending a personal recognizance release which just means you get to walk out that's it on your own that's correct your honor and that is recommended by the United States right right and you don't want any conditions imposed other than the because there's two standard conditions number one and number five which basically are like come back to court and don't get arrested that's it just don't commit any other crimes while you're out but the other conditions that are standard conditions that everyone else has to abide by they don't apply right you don't you don't view him as a Flight Risk do you government government says no so you're not asking for any special conditions nope no Financial component nope and he says you know 18 USC 3142 sub a sub 1 allows a defendant to be released on their own recognizance on an unsecured Bond if they're not a Flight Risk and the person won't endanger the safety of another person or the community and he said basically are you asking that he not surrender his passport Port are you requesting that that's standard I've never had a client who hasn't had to surrender their passport in federal court that's outrageous okay nope no limitation on international travel what about domestic travel is there any limitation on that because you know it's standard a standard condition is no travel outside the southern district of Florida or whatever District you're in in a federal case again all my clients can't leave the district that uh that the case is in that's a standard condition of release nope your honor we don't see that as necessary okay then they get to you know they get to one that says uh how about how about the standard condition of forbidding him from possessing firearms government uh what's your position on Firearms ammunition and dangerous devices nope no problem he can do that too and then the judge says what about are you requesting that he avoid contact with the co-defendants and you know what they said nope we're not requesting that either judge he works for Walt Nauta works for Trump so that would not be practicable so nope he can have contact with the co-defendants and the judge then said are you requesting that Donald Trump report to priest trial services in any way again every one of my clients has to go to pre-trial services and they said no they said we're not asking for that at all they're not asking for any special condition of release and pre-trial Services said the same thing they said we're not requesting anything either judge and so the judge says well okay and clearly this judge was surprised because this is so highly unusual and Donald Trump is being treated differently than everybody else once again the judge said you know what despite the part of course the defense has no objection to that right why as a defense attorney would you have any objection to these incredible terms and these incredible conditions because Donald Trump this doesn't matter he can just go about living his life despite the fact that he has another open indictment and we know of two more open criminal uh cases you know pending investigations both uh January 6 with Jack Smith and um and Fulton County with uh fonnie Willis but despite the fact that there's two indictments now and two other pending cases no conditions judge and I bet if you looked in the entire country you will not find another case involving a defendant who has two separate indictments and two separate jurisdictions and two other pending uh Court in the I mean two other pending criminal investigations and they get this kind of a deal but he's Donald Trump and so here he he gets this but I think the judge was a little taken aback that that there was Zero conditions and he is going to protect the Integrity of the case because you know he's the judge that's all he really cares about is the Integrity of the case so he says however despite the party's recommendations to me I am going to take it upon myself to impose some additional special conditions think thank you judge thank you for you know being the grown-up in the room and seeing that you know what guess what Donald Trump is a criminal defendant and shouldn't be treated differently than everybody else and he says I'm going to require that Donald Trump avoid all contact with Witnesses and victims except through counsel and this will be effective once the defense attorney receives a written list of those Witnesses and victims from the prosecutor and the prosecution this prohibition is only effective to those people who are written on the list and he's also said the second condition is he can't communicate with his co-defendant Walt Nauta about the case except through Council so in other words he can have contact with uh Mr Nauta since he still works for Donald Trump but they can't talk about the case unless they're with their lawyers now Todd Blanche uh Trump's attorney objected to these conditions he says this isn't practical the witnesses include his protection detail and everyone who's around him every day is just like with Nauta this happened at his home in Mar-A-Lago it also happened at his other Home Bedminster these people work with him every day and he says you know then he says and one witness is the president's lawyer obviously that doesn't work that was surprising that I'm sure he means Evan Corcoran and so Evan Corcoran is still his lawyer and even though we know he's the one who is turned over his notes and is telling everybody what uh telling the prosecutor what um uh exactly what happened and what Donald Trump did and said so that was interesting that Trump still considers Evan Corcoran his lawyer and then um the prosecutor says okay you know what let's just let me make a suggestion Mr harbox says let me make a suggestion the government will come up with a list not all the witnesses but a list of people who this requirement is necessary for and that will accommodate Mr blanche's uh issue about incidental contact because Mr Trump you know speaks to these people uh every day so he and Mr Blanche um Todd Blanche said you know what uh you know I'm not sure about this I don't want this I don't want this requirement but but harbox says the prosecutor says you know what judge let us let let me and Mr uh Blanche try and come up with something a proposal for you judge and we'll come to you with a list and and we'll I think we can sort this out amongst ourselves clearly they were caught flat-footed and didn't realize this was going to happen and they were totally unprepared because they spent the next I'd say 10 15 minutes going back and forth about this we have two lists you know one for no contact at all and others for don't discuss the case and Blanche is upset about this and says we can't do this and you know and then and then um and then harbox says well give us time to try to work it out and they're going back and forth and backing back and forth and um one point Blanche says you know why should there be any conditions everybody although all the witnesses have lawyers you know and then the court says that's a really broad statement in fact every single witness has their own lawyer but then of course he hems and Haws and walks that back because he doesn't want to admit that yes everyone has a lawyer how do I know because Trump is paying for everyone's lawyers but but that's neither here nor there that's what I think he didn't mean to spill that that can of beans um and so you know they go back and forth on this for quite some time and um and they ultimately land on uh the you know because I think Todd Blanche realizes um realizes at a certain point going wait a minute because he says is the Court's requirement that the government is going to give us a full witness list because we'll take that and so I think they realized you know oh my God you don't normally get a full witness list in fact some people are secret you have no idea that they're cooperating and you don't want to let the defense know that they're cooperating because we know Donald Trump will then you know bully them put their name out there and and really intimidate them and and and you know like he has for every other every other person out there call them names you know whatever so so Todd Blanche wakes up and realizes the this could be a gift but you know uh but the judge says no no no not so much let's just do this okay let's just get a list of people from the government that will tell us that who it is that that uh Trump should not speak about the facts of the case that's it and if if the person's not on the list and he talks about the facts of the case then he's not in violation of this order just people on the list so the government's gonna have to go back and say they're probably they're going to probably say this is not a full witness list these are just the people that we don't want Donald Trump to talk about the case with so we'll see what they come up with but that was a little bit of a inelegant um back and forth that people did not expect and um and there was a lot of time spent on that but then they turned to the co-defendant Walt Nauta Stanley Woodward appeared for him but he's not admitted in the southern district of Florida which is a requirement to appear in court there so the judge used his discretion and allowed Mr Woodward to represent him and appear on the record for his initial appearance but not for the arraignment and so the initial the initial appearance he gave the same conditions on Mr Nauta that he did to Mr Trump which is nothing and so it's the exact same Bond and they put over his arraignment for June 27th at 9 45 a.m before the chief magistrate Edwin Torres but then he said you know there's a Federal Criminal procedure 10B that indicates Mr Nauta doesn't have to appear physically if he doesn't want to for arraignment if he follows the procedures of the rule but the lawyer does have to appear which I found very interesting because that is very different from New York State Court where a defendant has to appear for his arraignment but I guess federally you don't have to so he may or may not appear he may appear on video he may appear in person or he might not appear at all his bond is already set as as exactly what what Trump had and then the judge ends it with the good news is when Mr Nauta appears it will not be with me it'll be the chief Magistrate Judge Ed Torres my involvement in this case I think ends right about now so he clearly didn't want to have anything to do with this he just you know it was his day uh that he was signed up to be the duty judge to handle any arraignments that came in and that was that so now um after Mr Nauta is arraigned the entire matter will go before judge Eileen Cannon who has been assigned this case uh through the wheel which means it was a random just assignment you know that that comes up on the wheel um you know when when they got Eileen Cannon uh Jack Smith basically was the opposite of winning the lotto it was the worst possible hand you can draw because she's already made some terrible rulings on this case in the past during the investigation and showed that she has bias against Trump so we'll see where that goes um I'm sorry she has bias for Trump not against Trump uh she has bias against the government for bringing this case um so it was not a great not a great draw um I think this you know arraignment was fairly outrageous because you know I want to just draw your attention to a couple of other cases uh do you remember Airman Jack Tashara who was arrested a while back in Massachusetts he was a young kid with the Air National Guardsmen uh he he's the one who posted classified documents about the word on in Ukraine on social media and he also sought to obstruct investigators he also had a history of violent and racist remarks and he is also a target for hostile foreign power you know this is a guy who worked on I.T for classified computer systems and you know what he also possessed the documents and only showed them to a small group of people to brag right just to kind of show off look what I can get look what I can do doesn't this sound familiar the entire set of facts getting these documents and bragging to a small group of people and showing it to them then obstructing investigators you know when they try to retrieve this back and uh and and also having a history of violent and racist remarks well guess where Jack Tashara is he is in jail why because he's dangerous and he's a Flight Risk and this is a serious case and so he's in jail awaiting his trial also compare it to Chelsea Manning Edward Snowden other cases of of uh you know leaked documents and you know it's just a very familiar that anyone else who who does this is considered a threat to National Security but someone who who foments a violent insurrection who spews racist hateful uh violent remarks and who recklessly and willfully possesses and maintains and shows off classified documents that are our most secret materials and who also has several criminal cases that are either pending or under investigation somehow he is released with no conditions because he is once again treated differently than everybody else but not in the way he means he gets away with everything that nobody else does because he thinks he is above the law and it is time now to hold him accountable thank you for joining I'm Karen Friedman agnifolo from legal AF you can catch me on Wednesdays with Michael popock at 8pm Eastern Live on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts and you can also watch legal AF on Saturdays with Ben Meiselas and Michael popock also Saturdays at 8 pm Eastern