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Jack Smith holds PRESS CONFERENCE on Trump INDICTMENT
by Ben Meiselas and Karen Agnifilo
MeidasTouch
Jun 9, 2023
Special Counsel Jack Smith held his first press conference since Donald Trump was criminally indicted in federal court in Florida.
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch
Network we are just moments away from
special counsel Jack Smith delivering a
press conference after Donald Trump has
been criminally indicted in federal
court in the southern district of
Florida that indictment has just been
unsealed I of course want to break down
everything that's in that indictment
with my co-host from legal AF Karen
Friedman agnifolo who joins us here as
well and uh Karen first I'm getting word
that special counsel Jack Smith is about
to give the press conference let's play
the press conference of special counsel
Jack Smith and then let's uh respond to
that and then let's go through the
indictment let's go to the press
conference
good afternoon
today an indictment was unsealed
charging Donald J Trump with felony
violations
of our national security laws as well as
participating in a conspiracy to
obstruct Justice
this indictment was voted by a grand
jury of citizens in the southern
district of Florida
and I invite everyone to read it in full
to understand the scope
and the gravity of the crimes charged
the men and women of the United States
intelligence community and our Armed
Forces dedicate their lives to
protecting our nation and its people
are laws that protect National Defense
information are critical to the Safety
and Security of the United States
and they must be enforced
violations of those laws put our country
at risk
adherence to the rule of law is a
Bedrock principle of the Department of
Justice
and our nation's commitment to the rule
of law sets an example for the world
we have one set of laws in this country
and they apply to everyone
applying those laws collecting facts
that's what determines the outcome of an
investigation
nothing more
and nothing less
the prosecutors in my office are among
the most talented
and experienced in the Department of
Justice
they have investigated this case hewing
to the highest ethical standards and
they will continue to do so as this case
proceeds
it's very important for me to note that
the defendants in this case must be
presumed innocent until proven guilty
Beyond A Reasonable Doubt in a court of
law
to that end my office will seek a speedy
trial in this matter
consistent with a public interest and
the rights of the accused
we very much look forward to presenting
our case to a jury of citizens in the
southern district of Florida
there you have it and uh special counsel
Jack Smith concluded his speech right
there walked off did not take any
further questions so there's nothing
else that we miss that's the entire
press conference that's bringing Karen
Friedman agnifolo co-host of legal AF
CNN correspondent Karen used to be of
course the number two at the Manhattan
District Attorney's office and has
provided incredible legal analysis here
on the Midas touch Network Karen
Friedman agnifolo what's your response
to that press conference before getting
into the recently unsealed indictment
yeah Jack Smith I think really felt like
he had to explain to the American people
what happened here and what's going on
you know I think that if you recall with
the Alvin Bragg case we knew that he was
indicted because his K because he was
surrendered uh he was given a surrender
date I'm sorry and so we knew that there
was a date he was going to come in and
then he because the indictment was
sealed he then managed to tell the
narrative and and give his version of
things and really spin the story so by
the time he was by the time he was
arraigned there he had the I think he
had the upper hand in terms of The
Narrative of the story of the Alvin Brad
case Well Jack Smith clearly learned
from that and wasn't going to give
Donald Trump uh the weekend to do all
his tweeting and his threatening and his
bullying and going on Fox News and and
you know saying all the things that he
will definitely say okay and instead
went to a judge and had this indictment
unsealed and released it and his press
conference was Jack Smith control
and what it is and what it is and he
urged people to read this indictment he
specifically said that and I urge people
to read this indictment it is not like
Alvin Bragg's indictment that is a Bare
Bones legal indictment which is typical
of most indictments this is what they
call a talking indictment or a speaking
indictment and it tells a story and Jack
Smith told a story here and he urged
people to come read the indictment he
thanked the people who worked on the
case and he said this isn't about
politics this is about one set of laws
that applies to everyone it applies to
everyone in this country and what we do
is we apply the law the facts to the law
nothing more nothing less they adhere to
high ethical standards they will
continue to do so he also reminded
everybody that defendants are presumed
innocent until proven guilty and he also
I think when he said we will to that and
we will seek a speedy trial I think what
he's trying to signal is he recognizes
there's an election coming up and he
wants to to get this done quickly so
that's what the statement spoke volumes
to me and I think that's the purpose
behind the indictment he has to get out
in front of Donald Trump who will go and
try and make this
you know his own sideshow
it was a very short but powerful Press
Conference held by special counsel Jack
Smith of course it was the first time
that we've heard from special counsel
Jack Smith is the first time we've heard
his voice and to your point he
emphasized he wants to pursue a speedy
trial at his office is adhering to the
highest ethical standards he mentioned
the fact that this is National Defense
information and the seriousness and the
gravity of the crimes being charged for
someone who mishandles that and treats
the National Security of our country uh
in such abhorrent ways and then special
counsel Jack Smith invited everybody to
read this unsealed indictment in full
let's talk about this unsealed
indictment uh this indictment was
announced on Thursday we got word about
it of course we reported about it here
on the Midas touch Network we knew there
were going to be a number of charges
including Espionage Act violations which
is the willful retention of National
Defense information we knew there was a
conspiracy count obstruction of justice
but we now have this full unsealed
indictment it is very detailed it has a
very detailed narrative component there
are 38 separate counts uh in this case
both Donald Trump and uh his personal
aide who was a valet When Donald Trump
was in the White House Walt now to then
a personal aide after Donald Trump left
the white house uh is also a criminal
defendant in this case and then of
course there's just a lot of detailed
text messages that were sent from Walt
now to others including Donald Trump's
family members talking about moving the
boxes messages from Walt now to other
employees he's talking about Donald
Trump moving the boxes and then of
course there are photographs of these
boxes that include highly classified
information so there are boxes in a
storage room in a Auditorium room there
are boxes that are in a bathroom and you
see classified documents that are just
like on the floor in a uh in a shower
and those are in this uh indictment so
Karen what were your main takeaways from
this indictment that was just unsealed
so again I I like Jack Smith I urge
everybody to read this indictment it
really does tell a powerful compelling
story of why this is a righteous
prosecution and why this isn't just a
situation of well everybody does it and
you know they found them at Biden's
house and they find classified documents
at Pence's house and it's an accident
and you know and thankfully in his CNN
Town Hall he took that it was an
accident uh defense off the table when
he said I I could possess it you know
there's nothing wrong with me possessing
it and and so he underscored the
willfulness in his own words but what
what Jack Smith uh and the Department of
Justice did in this indictment
is they really just
explained uh to everybody what is in
there and why this is an important case
and why this affects our national
security our military our foreign allies
our foreign enemies and how he really
possessed all of these documents that
were you know he Jack Smith talked about
the different classification levels he
spelled it out so that none of us had to
guess right some people might not know
what's is top secret more is that worse
than classified he spelled all all the
levels and he described them he even
talked about certain levels of class
classification that I have never heard
before one was called No foreign or
something that meant no foreign
government you know people should be
able to have access to this and he
spelled out all the classification
levels and and the briefings that Donald
Trump would get and then he went on to
describe in painstaking details scale
the efforts that the Department of
Justice made to to get these documents
and then the uh the criminal efforts
that Donald Trump with others including
Walt nada
did to conceal them that and they puts
the dates out there of you know on this
date we asked for something and then two
weeks later waltonatta moves the
document the boxes of documents so that
when we go search it you know it's not
it's not there and you know he just goes
through it in in detail
um there was and and so they really just
build a case I mean in some ways it's
like it's like the opening statement of
of the trial is really this indictment
you know they're going to talk about it
who who's Donald Trump who's Walt natto
what do they do who are these documents
what do they mean what is the
classification system who's allowed to
have them who's not what are the facts
that shows that Donald Trump knew that
he wasn't supposed to do this and they
talk about statements that Donald Trump
made during his campaign and while he
was president and so that he knew that
you have to be careful and that these
are things that you know are needed to
protect the nation and then Jack Smith
Goes On To You Know describe with photos
and and and uh evidence
um evidentiary photos in there of that
that's a box of documents of top secret
documents that Spilled Out and Walt NADA
took a picture of it and texted it
saying you know there's there's top
secret uh documents in here and this is
a room that is often unlocked there are
people who come in and out of there and
you know there's another another one uh
in his bathroom right so in his shower
in his bathroom those had had top secret
documents and then there was a ballroom
on a stage which I found stunning that
they said they were classified in top
secret National Security documents in
there and there were thousands of people
who came in and out of there I mean it's
on Mar-A-Lago itself isn't considered a
secure place to have these documents you
know these these documents some of them
are are only allowed to be looked at in
something called a skiff which
stands for I don't even remember what it
stands for
um instead of department and information
facility thank you there you go and and
Mar-A-Lago is not a skiff you know so
you the the fact that he had these
documents that anyone could get to
people went in and out it just really
and and that he didn't do it
unintentionally he did it intentionally
he knew he did it and they talked about
those that recording that we've heard
about uh in Bedminster New Jersey where
he was was waving around
um some kind of paper talking to
somebody in a in the in the mark Meadows
um uh autobiography you know he was he
was showing off that he had talked
secret information going oh but I'm not
supposed to show this to you you know
and whatever like so Jack Smith even
puts that in the indictment to show that
um you know that Trump knew what he was
doing so I just think it's stunning it's
dangerous he's he's a uh he's a danger
to to the world frankly I mean there
were nuclear codes of of a foreign
country I think it was I think you were
you were reading it earlier
um when we were talking about it count
five you know he had the nuclear codes
of a foreign country and I mean it's
just crazy you know the military
capabilities and attack plans I mean the
guy is just dangerous and so this was
this was a willful retention of
information related to the National
Defense and that's what this was
um you know I think it's a very
righteous prosecution and Jack Smith
made the case in this indictment to show
that this was a a righteous prosecution
yeah and I want to let's focus on just a
few more portions of this indictment
that was unsealed you go to page 44 you
see that it was signed by the four
person
um this you know this was uh not
special counsel Jack Smith just doing
this on his own this was not President
Biden right this was the Department of
Justice that appointed a special counsel
the special counsel presented to a grand
jury and a grand jury is who ultimately
voted to indict Donald Trump uh the
evidence against Donald Trump went
before a jury a grand jury of Donald
Trump's peers turning to uh paragraph
three of this unsealed indictment on
page two it talks about how the
classified documents Trump stored in his
boxes included information regarding
defense and weapons capabilities of both
the United States and foreign countries
United States nuclear programs potential
vulnerabilities of the United States and
its allies to military attack and plans
for possible retaliation in response to
a foreign attack the unauthorized
disclosure of these classified documents
could put out risk the National Security
of the United States far relations the
safety of the United States military and
human sources and the continued
viability of sensitive intelligence
collection methods you go to paragraph
six it talks about two specific
occasions where there is actually
recordings and documented proof where
Donald Trump was just showing classified
information and sensitive compartmented
information to just like random people
um in paragraph 6A it talks about how
Donald Trump was showing uh information
about plans regarding a military attack
involving Iran uh to uh to a ghost
writers who were writing Mark Meadows uh
book and then in 6B it talks about
Donald Trump showing a military map
involving classified military operations
to someone affiliated with his political
action organization the uh unsealed
indictment goes on to show those
photographs that we put up earlier where
these documents were being being kept at
Mar-A-Lago how they were just kind of on
the floor you see from this image that
we're showing right now you can actually
see the classified border on the
documents on the bottom right by the box
that's how it was just being kept and
again this is highly highly sensitive
information there's this photograph of
classified information being kept in a
bathroom the com the unsealed indictment
details uh how Walt nauta and Donald
Trump would try to move these documents
to different locations board them on
airplanes bring them to Bedminster and
then just one example of these text
messages there's a ton of examples of
text messages here that shows how uh
special counsel Jack Smith got a lot of
this information about
these documents being moved but you go
to page 22 and page 23 and it talks
about uh here let's go to page 23 uh and
this is from paragraph 58c and it says
on May 30th 2022 at 12 33 PM a trump
family member texted nauta good
afternoon Walt happy Memorial Day I saw
you put boxes to POTUS room just FYI and
I will tell him as well not sure how
many he wants to take on Friday on the
plane we will not have room for them
plane will be full of luggage thank you
and now to reply good afternoon ma'am
smiley face emoji thank you so much I
think he wanted to pick from them I
don't imagine him wanting to take the
boxes he told me to put them in the room
and that he was going to talk to you
about them there's countless other
examples like this but his picking from
the boxes to take classified information
with him from different locations and
we're even hearing from people in
Trump's orbit someone like a lawyer by
the name of Jonathan Turley who's like
the right wing kind of Spin Master who
always talks about the doj's politicized
and all of these things even he's saying
when he went on Fox that this was
incredibly damaging to Donald Trump and
this is a very serious indictment and
very very very damaging final words
Karen Friedman eggniffilo about the
press conference and everything we're
seeing yeah so I
indictment it was red
was written it wasn't written for
lawyers and and judges and I think it
really is important to to to read it
everybody to know it to be able to fight
back when people say but everybody does
it when his supporters say that and I
just think uh there's going to be a lot
more to come here you know that's going
that we're going to see but the
allegations are obviously very very
strong and it's a I think it's great
work that was done by Jack Smith and his
people and people like Evan Corcoran his
his lawyer you know the notes that he
took it's very clear that that was a
road map for Jack Smith to to know that
Donald to show Donald Trump's state of
mind that he was intimately involved in
the packing and the moving of these
boxes and of these documents that he
knew what he had and that this was a
willful intentional obstruction of
justice thank you very much Karen
Friedman agnifolo thank you everybody
who's watching this and we will of
course keep you posted as we learn more
we will do analysis on other aspects of
this indictment we'll do uh analysis of
what we expect to happen next and of
course any breaking news we will bring
to you here on the Midas touch Network
thank you for watching hit subscribe on
the YouTube channel And subscribe to the
legal AF podcast and don't forget to uh
watch legal AF live tomorrow at 5
Pacific 8 Eastern uh we could watch that
on Saturday five Pacific 8 Eastern have
a great day and hit subscribe
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
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Part 1 of 2
[First] Indictment
USDC, Southern District of Florida
United States of America v. Donald J. Trump and Waltine Nauta
Case No. 23-80101-CR-Cannon/Reinhart
by Jack Smith, Special Counsel
6/8/23
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
Case No. 23-80101-CR-CANNON/REINHART
18 U.S.C. § 793(e)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(k)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(2)(A)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(1)
18 U.S.C. § 1519
18 U.S.C. § 1001(a)(1)
18 U.S.C. § 1011(a)(2)
18 U.S.C. § 2
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
v.
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
Defendants.
INDICTMENT
The Grand Jury charges that:
GENERAL ALLEGATIONS
At times material to this Indictment, on or about the dates and approximate times stated below:
Introduction
1. Defendant DONALD J. TRUMP was the forty-fifth President of the United States of America. He held office from January 20, 2017, until January 20, 2021. As president, TRUMP had lawful access to the most sensitive classified documents and national defense information gathered and owned by the United States government, including information from the agencies that comprise the United States Intelligence Community and the United States Department of Defense.
2. Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents.
3. The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military, and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.
4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.
5. The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP's presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club-including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.
6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others, as follows:
a. In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey ("The Bedminster Club"), during an audio-recorded meeting with a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a "plan of attack" that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was "highly confidential" and "secret." TRUMP also said, "as president I could have declassified it," and, "Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret."
b. In August or September 2021, at The Bedminster Club, TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.
7. On March 30, 2022, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI") opened a criminal investigation into the unlawful retention of classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club. A federal grand jury investigation began the next month. The grand jury issued a subpoena requiring TRUMP to turn over all documents with classification markings. TRUMP endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal his continued retention of classified documents by, among other things:
a. suggesting that his attorney falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
b. directing defendant WALTINE NAUTA to move boxes of documents to conceal them from TRUMP's attorney, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that his attorney hide or destroy documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the grand jury subpoena, while claiming that he was cooperating fully; and
e. causing a certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury falsely representing that all documents called for by the grand jury subpoena had been produced-while knowing that, in fact, not all such documents had been produced.
8. As a result of TRUMP's retention of classified documents after his presidency and refusal to return them, hundreds of classified documents were not recovered by the United States government until 2022, as follows:
a. On January 17, nearly one year after TRUMP left office, and after months of demands by the National Archives and Records Administration for TRUMP to provide all missing presidential records, TRUMP provided only 15 boxes, which contained 197 documents with classification markings.
b. On June 3, in response to a grand jury subpoena demanding the production of all documents with classification markings, TRUMP's attorney provided to the FBI 38 more documents with classification markings.
c. On August 8, pursuant to a court-authorized search warrant, the FBI recovered from TRUMP's office and a storage room at The Mar-a-Lago Club 102 more documents with classification markings.
TRUMP's Co-Conspirator
9. Defendant NAUTA was a member of the United States Navy stationed as a valet in the White House during TRUMP's presidency. Beginning in August 2021, NAUTA became an executive assistant in The Office of Donald J. Trump and served as TRUMP's personal aide or "body man." NAUTA reported to TRUMP, worked closely with TRUMP, and traveled with TRUMP.
The Mar-a-Lago Club
10. The Mar-a-Lago Club was located on South Ocean Boulevard in Palm Beach, Florida, and included TRUMP's residence, more than 25 guest rooms, two ballrooms, a spa, a gift store, exercise facilities, office space, and an outdoor pool and patio. As of January 2021, The Mar-a-Lago Club had hundreds of members and was staffed by more than 150 full-time, part-time, and temporary employees.
11. Between January 2021 and August 2022, The Mar-a-Lago Club hosted more than 150 social events, including weddings, movie premieres, and fundraisers that together drew tens of thousands of guests.
12. The United States Secret Service (the "Secret Service") provided protection services to TRUMP and his family after he left office, including at The Mar-a-Lago Club, but it was not responsible for the protection of TRUMP's boxes or their contents. TRUMP did not inform the Secret Service that he was storing boxes containing classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
Classified Information
13. National security information was information owned by, produced by, produced for, and under the control of the United States government. Pursuant to Executive Order 12958, signed on April 17, 1995, as amended by Executive Order 13292 on March 25, 2003, and Executive Order 13526 on December 29, 2009, national security information was classified as "TOP SECRET," "SECRET," or "CONFIDENTIAL," as follows:
a. Information was classified as TOP SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
b. Information was classified as SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
c. Information was classified as CONFIDENTIAL if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
14. The classification marking "NOFORN" stood for "Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals" and denoted that dissemination of that information was limited to United States persons.
15. Classified information related to intelligence sources, methods, and analytical processes was designated as Sensitive Compartmented Information ("SCI"). SCI was to be processed, stored, used, or discussed in an accredited Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility ("SCIF"), and only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SCI permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information.
16. When the vulnerability of, or threat to, specific classified information was exceptional, and the normal criteria for determining eligibility for access to classified information were insufficient to protect the information from unauthorized disclosure, the United States could establish Special Access Programs ("SAPs") to further protect the classified information. The number of these programs was to be kept to an absolute minimum and limited to programs in which the number of persons who ordinarily would have access would be reasonably small and commensurate with the objective of providing enhanced protection for the information involved. Only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SAP permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information, which was subject to enhanced handling and storage requirements.
17. Pursuant to Executive Order 13526, information classified at any level could be lawfully accessed only by persons determined by an appropriate United States government official to be eligible for access to classified information and who had signed an approved non-disclosure agreement, who received a security clearance, and who had a "need-to-know" the classified information. After his presidency, TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain classified documents.
18. Executive Order 13526 provided that a former president could obtain a waiver of the "need-to-know" requirement, if the agency head or senior agency official of the agency that originated the classified information: (1) determined in writing that access was consistent with the interest of national security and (2) took appropriate steps to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure or compromise and ensured that the information was safeguarded in a manner consistent with the order. TRUMP did not obtain any such waiver after his presidency.
The Executive Branch Departments and Agencies Whose Classified Documents TRUMP Retained After His Presidency
19. As part of his official duties as president, TRUMP received intelligence briefings from high-level United States government officials, including briefings from the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, senior White House officials, and a designated briefer. He regularly received a collection of classified intelligence from the United States Intelligence Community ("USIC") known as the "President's Daily Brief."
20. The USIC's mission was to collect, analyze, and deliver foreign intelligence and counterintelligence information to America's leaders, including the president, policymakers, law enforcement, and the military, so they could make sound decisions to protect the United States. The USIC consisted of United States executive branch departments and agencies responsible for the conduct of foreign relations and the protection of national security.
21. After his presidency, TRUMP retained classified documents originated by, or implicating the equities of, multiple USIC members and other executive branch departments and agencies, including the following:
a. The Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA"). CIA was responsible for providing intelligence on foreign countries and global issues to the president and other policymakers to help them make national security decisions.
b. The Department of Defense ("DoD"). DoD was responsible for providing the military forces needed to deter war and ensure national security. Some of the executive branch agencies comprising the USIC were within DoD.
c. The National Security Agency. The National Security Agency was a combat support agency within DoD and a member of the USIC responsible for foreign signals intelligence and cybersecurity. This included collecting, processing, and disseminating to United States policymakers and military leaders foreign intelligence derived from communications and information systems; protecting national security systems; and enabling computer network operations.
d. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency was a combat support agency within DoD responsible for the exploitation and analysis of imagery, imagery intelligence, and geospatial information in support of the national security objectives of the United States and the geospatial intelligence requirements of DoD, the Department of State, and other federal agencies.
e. The National Reconnaissance Office. The National Reconnaissance Office was an agency within DoD responsible for developing, acquiring, launching, and operating space-based surveillance and reconnaissance systems that collected and delivered intelligence to enhance national security.
f. The Department of Energy. The Department of Energy was responsible for maintaining a safe, secure, and effective nuclear deterrent to protect national security, including ensuring the effectiveness of the United States nuclear weapons stockpile without nuclear explosive testing.
g. The Department of State and Bureau of Intelligence and Research. The Department of State was responsible for protecting and promoting United States security, prosperity, and democratic values. Within the Department of State, the Bureau of Intelligence and Research was a member of the USIC and responsible for providing intelligence to inform diplomacy and support United States diplomats.
TRUMP's Public Statements on Classified Information
22. As a candidate for President of the United States, TRUMP made the following public statements, among others, about classified information:
a. On August 18, 2016, TRUMP stated, "In my administration I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law."
b. On September 6, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need to fight this battle by collecting intelligence and then protecting, protecting our classified secrets. ... We can't have someone in the Oval Office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified."
c. On September 7, 2016, TRUMP stated, "[O]ne of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information."
d. On September 19, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need the best protection of classified information."
e. On November 3, 2016, TRUMP stated, "Service members here in North Carolina have risked their lives to acquire classified intelligence to protect our country."
23. As President of the United States, on July 26, 2018, TRUMP issued the following statement about classified information:
TRUMP's Retention of Classified Documents After His Presidency
24. In January 2021, as he was preparing to leave the White House, TRUMP and his White House staff, including NAUTA, packed items, including some of TRUMP's boxes. TRUMP was personally involved in this process. TRUMP caused his boxes, containing hundreds of classified documents, to be transported from the White House to The Mar-a-Lago Club.
25. From January through March 15, 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were stored in The Mar-a-Lago Club's White and Gold Ballroom, in which events and gatherings took place. TRUMP's boxes were for a time stacked on the ballroom's stage, as depicted in the photograph below (redacted to obscure an individual's identity).
26. In March 2021, NAUTA and others moved some of TRUMP's boxes from the White and Gold Ballroom to the business center at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
27. On April 5, 2021, an employee of The Office of Donald J. Trump ("Trump Employee 1") texted another employee of that office ("Trump Employee 2") to ask whether TRUMP's boxes could be moved out of the business center to make room for staff to use it as an office. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Woah! Ok so potus specifically asked Walt for those boxes to be in the business center because they are his 'papers.'" Later that day, Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2 exchanged the following text messages:
28. After the text exchange between Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2, in April 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were moved from the business center to a bathroom and shower in The Mar-a-Lago Club's Lake Room, as depicted in the photograph below.
29. In May 2021, TRUMP directed that a storage room on the ground floor of The Mar-a-Lago Club (the "Storage Room") be cleaned out so that it could be used to store his boxes. The hallway leading to the Storage Room could be reached from multiple outside entrances, including one accessible from The Mar-a-Lago Club pool patio through a doorway that was often kept open. The Storage Room was near the liquor supply closet, linen room, lock shop, and various other rooms.
30. On June 24, 2021, TRUMP's boxes that were in the Lake Room were moved to the Storage Room. After the move, there were more than 80 boxes in the Storage Room, as depicted in the photographs below.
31. On December 7, 2021, NAUTA found several of TRUMP's boxes fallen and their contents spilled onto the floor of the Storage Room, including a document marked "SECRET/REL TO USA, FVEY," which denoted that the information in the document was releasable only to the Five Eyes intelligence alliance consisting of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2, "I opened the door and found this ... " NAUTA also attached two photographs he took of the spill. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Oh no oh no," and "I'm sorry potus had my phone." One of the photographs NAUTA texted to Trump Employee 2 is depicted below with the visible classified information redacted. TRUMP's unlawful retention of this document is charged in Count 8 of this Indictment.
TRUMP's Disclosures of Classified Information in Private Meetings
32. In May 2021, TRUMP caused some of his boxes to be brought to his summer residence at The Bedminster Club. Like The Mar-a-Lago Club, after TRUMP's presidency, The Bedminster Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents.
33. On July 21, 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP gave an interview in his office at The Bedminster Club to a writer and a publisher in connection with a then-forthcoming book. Two members of TRUMP's staff also attended the interview, which was recorded with TRUMP's knowledge and consent. Before the interview, the media had published reports that, at the end of TRUMP's term as president, a senior military official (the "Senior Military Official") purportedly feared that TRUMP might order an attack on Country A and that the Senior Military Official advised TRUMP against doing so.
34. Upon greeting the writer, publisher, and his two staff members, TRUMP stated, "Look what I found, this was [the Senior Military Official's] plan of attack, read it and just show ... it's interesting." Later in the interview, TRUMP engaged in the following exchange:
At the time of this exchange, the writer, the publisher, and TRUMP's two staff members did not have security clearances or any need-to-know any classified information about a plan of attack on Country A.
35. In August or September 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP met in his office at The Bedminster Club with a representative of his political action committee (the "PAC Representative"). During the meeting, TRUMP commented that an ongoing military operation in Country B was not going well. TRUMP showed the PAC Representative a classified map of Country B and told the PAC Representative that he should not be showing the map to the PAC Representative and to not get too close. The PAC Representative did not have a security clearance or any need-to-know classified information about the military operation.
36. On February 16, 2017, four years before TRUMP's disclosures of classified information set forth above, TRUMP said at a press conference:
TRUMP's Production of 15 Cardboard Boxes to the National Archives and Records Administration
37. Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA"), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, beginning in June, NARA warned TRUMP through his representatives that if he did not comply, it would refer the matter of the missing records to the Department of Justice.
38. Between November 2021 and January 2022, NAUTA and Trump Employee 2 -- at TRUMP's direction -- brought boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence for TRUMP to review.
39. On November 12,2021, Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP a photograph of his boxes in the Storage Room by taping it to one of the boxes that Trump Employee 2 had placed in TRUMP's residence. Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP the photograph so that TRUMP could see how many of his boxes were stored in the Storage Room. The photograph, shown below, depicted a wall of the Storage Room against which dozens of TRUMP's boxes were stacked.
40. On November 17, 2021, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about the photograph Trump Employee 2 had provided to TRUMP, stating, "He mentioned about a picture of the 'boxes' he wants me to see it?" Trump Employee 2 replied, "Calling you shortly."
41. On November 25, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA about TRUMP's review of the contents of his boxes, asking, "Has he mentioned boxes to you? I delivered some, but I think he may need more. Could you ask if he'd like more in pine hall?" Pine Hall was an entry room in TRUMP's residence. NAUTA replied in three successive text messages:
42. On November 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA, asking, "Next you are on property (no rush) could you help me bring 4 more boxes up?" NAUTA replied, "Yes!! Of course."
43. On December 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted a TRUMP representative who was in contact with NARA ("Trump Representative 1"), "box answer will be wrenched out of him today, promise!" The next day, Trump Representative 1 replied in two successive text messages:
Trump Employee 2 spoke to TRUMP and then responded a few hours later in two successive text messages:
44. On January 13, 2022, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about TRUMP's "tracking" of boxes, stating, "He's tracking the boxes, more to follow today on whether he wants to go through more today or tomorrow." Trump Employee 2 replied, "Thank you!"
45. On January 15, 2022, NAUTA sent Trump Employee 2 four successive text messages:
Trump Employee 2 replied, "Yes, I will get that!"
46. On January 17, 2022, Trump Employee 2 and NAUTA gathered 15 boxes from TRUMP's residence, loaded the boxes in NAUTA's car, and took them to a commercial truck for delivery to NARA.
47. When interviewed by the FBI in May 2022 regarding the location and movement of boxes before the production to NARA, NAUTA made false and misleading statements as set forth in Count 38 of this Indictment, including:
a. falsely stating that he was not aware of TRUMP's boxes being brought to TRUMP's residence for his review before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA in January 2022;
b. falsely stating that he did not know how the boxes that he and Trump Employee 2 brought from TRUMP's residence to the commercial truck for delivery to NARA on January 17, 2022, had gotten to the residence; and
c. when asked whether he knew where TRUMP's boxes had been stored before they were in TRUMP's residence and whether they had been in a secure or locked location, NAUTA falsely responded, "I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don't know. I don't -- I honestly just don't know."
48. When the 15 boxes that TRUMP had provided reached NARA in January 2022, NARA reviewed the contents and determined that 14 of the boxes contained documents with classification markings. Specifically, as the FBI later determined, the boxes contained 197 documents with classification markings, of which 98 were marked "SECRET," 30 were marked "TOP SECRET," and the remainder were marked "CONFIDENTIAL." Some of those documents also contained SCI and SAP markings.
49. On February 9, 2022, NARA referred the discovery of classified documents in TRUMP's boxes to the Department of Justice for investigation.
The FBI and Grand Jury Investigations
50. On March 30, 2022, the FBI opened a criminal investigation.
51. On April 26, 2022, a federal grand jury opened an investigation.
The Defendants' Concealment of Boxes
52. On May 11, 2022, the grand jury issued a subpoena (the "May 11 Subpoena") to The Office of Donald J. Trump requiring the production of all documents with classification markings in the possession, custody, or control of TRUMP or The Office of Donald J. Trump. Two attorneys representing TRUMP ("Trump Attorney 1" [Matthew Evan Corcoran?] and "Trump Attorney 2" [Lindsey R. Halligan?]) informed TRUMP of the May 11 Subpoena, and he authorized Trump Attorney 1 to accept service.
53. On May 22, 2022, NAUTA entered the Storage Room at 3:47 p.m. and left approximately 34 minutes later, carrying one of TRUMP's boxes.
54. On May 23, 2022, TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 at The Mar-a-Lago Club to discuss the response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 told TRUMP that they needed to search for documents that would be responsive to the subpoena and provide a certification that there had been compliance with the subpoena. TRUMP, in sum and substance, made the following statements, among others, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
a. I don't want anybody looking, I don't want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don't, I don't want you looking through my boxes.
b. Well what if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them?
c. Wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything here?
d. Well look isn't it better if there are no documents?
55. While meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP, in sum and substance, told the following story, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
TRUMP related the story more than once that day.
56. On May 23, TRUMP also confirmed his understanding with Trump Attorney 1 that Trump Attorney 1 would return to The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2 to search for any documents with classification markings to produce in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 made it clear to TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 would conduct the search for responsive documents by looking through TRUMP's boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club. TRUMP indicated that he wanted to be at The Mar-a-Lago Club when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review his boxes on June 2, and that TRUMP would change his summer travel plans to do so. TRUMP told Trump Attorney 2 that Trump Attorney 2 did not need to be present for the review of boxes.
57. After meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club to The Bedminster Club for the summer so that he would be present at The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review the boxes.
58. Between TRUMP's May 23 meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 to discuss the May 11 Subpoena, and June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to The Mar-a-Lago Club to review the boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA removed -- at TRUMP's direction -- a total of approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room and brought them to TRUMP's residence, as set forth below:
a. On May 24, 2022, between 5:30 p.m. and 5:38 p.m., NAUTA removed three boxes from the Storage Room.
b. On May 30, 2022, at 9:08 a.m., TRUMP and NAUTA spoke by phone for approximately 30 seconds. Between 10:02 a.m. and 11:51 a.m., NAUTA removed a total of approximately 50 boxes from the Storage Room.
c. On May 30, 2022, at 12:33 p.m., a Trump family member [Melania Trump?] texted NAUTA:
NAUTA replied:
d. On June 1, 2022, beginning at 12:52 p.m., NAUTA removed approximately 11 boxes from the Storage Room.
59. On June 1, 2022, TRUMP spoke with Trump Attorney 1 by phone and asked whether Trump Attorney 1 was coming to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day and for exactly what purpose. Trump Attorney 1 reminded TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 was going to review the boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club so that Trump Attorney 1 could have a custodian of records certify that the May 11 subpoena had been complied with fully.
60. On June 2, 2022, the day that Trump Attorney 1 was scheduled to review TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, TRUMP spoke with NAUTA on the phone at 9:29 a.m. for approximately 24 seconds.
61. Later that day, between 12:33 p.m. and 12:52 p.m., NAUTA and an employee of The Mar-a-Lago Club moved approximately 30 boxes from TRUMP's residence to the Storage Room.
62. In sum, between May 23, 2022, and June 2, 2022, before Trump Attorney 1's review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA -- at TRUMP's direction -- moved approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence and brought to the Storage Room only approximately 30 boxes. Neither TRUMP nor NAUTA informed Trump Attorney 1 of this information.
[First] Indictment
USDC, Southern District of Florida
United States of America v. Donald J. Trump and Waltine Nauta
Case No. 23-80101-CR-Cannon/Reinhart
by Jack Smith, Special Counsel
6/8/23
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
Case No. 23-80101-CR-CANNON/REINHART
18 U.S.C. § 793(e)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(k)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(2)(A)
18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(1)
18 U.S.C. § 1519
18 U.S.C. § 1001(a)(1)
18 U.S.C. § 1011(a)(2)
18 U.S.C. § 2
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
v.
DONALD J. TRUMP and WALTINE NAUTA,
Defendants.
INDICTMENT
The Grand Jury charges that:
GENERAL ALLEGATIONS
At times material to this Indictment, on or about the dates and approximate times stated below:
Introduction
1. Defendant DONALD J. TRUMP was the forty-fifth President of the United States of America. He held office from January 20, 2017, until January 20, 2021. As president, TRUMP had lawful access to the most sensitive classified documents and national defense information gathered and owned by the United States government, including information from the agencies that comprise the United States Intelligence Community and the United States Department of Defense.
2. Over the course of his presidency, TRUMP gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, official documents, and other materials in cardboard boxes that he kept in the White House. Among the materials TRUMP stored in his boxes were hundreds of classified documents.
3. The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. The unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military, and human sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods.
4. At 12:00 p.m. on January 20, 2021, TRUMP ceased to be president. As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to The Mar-a-Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida, where he maintained his residence. TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents.
5. The Mar-a-Lago Club was an active social club, which, between January 2021 and August 2022, hosted events for tens of thousands of members and guests. After TRUMP's presidency, The Mar-a-Lago Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents. Nevertheless, TRUMP stored his boxes containing classified documents in various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club-including in a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.
6. On two occasions in 2021, TRUMP showed classified documents to others, as follows:
a. In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey ("The Bedminster Club"), during an audio-recorded meeting with a writer, a publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a "plan of attack" that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was "highly confidential" and "secret." TRUMP also said, "as president I could have declassified it," and, "Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret."
b. In August or September 2021, at The Bedminster Club, TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.
7. On March 30, 2022, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI") opened a criminal investigation into the unlawful retention of classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club. A federal grand jury investigation began the next month. The grand jury issued a subpoena requiring TRUMP to turn over all documents with classification markings. TRUMP endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigations and conceal his continued retention of classified documents by, among other things:
a. suggesting that his attorney falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
b. directing defendant WALTINE NAUTA to move boxes of documents to conceal them from TRUMP's attorney, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that his attorney hide or destroy documents called for by the grand jury subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the grand jury subpoena, while claiming that he was cooperating fully; and
e. causing a certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury falsely representing that all documents called for by the grand jury subpoena had been produced-while knowing that, in fact, not all such documents had been produced.
8. As a result of TRUMP's retention of classified documents after his presidency and refusal to return them, hundreds of classified documents were not recovered by the United States government until 2022, as follows:
a. On January 17, nearly one year after TRUMP left office, and after months of demands by the National Archives and Records Administration for TRUMP to provide all missing presidential records, TRUMP provided only 15 boxes, which contained 197 documents with classification markings.
b. On June 3, in response to a grand jury subpoena demanding the production of all documents with classification markings, TRUMP's attorney provided to the FBI 38 more documents with classification markings.
c. On August 8, pursuant to a court-authorized search warrant, the FBI recovered from TRUMP's office and a storage room at The Mar-a-Lago Club 102 more documents with classification markings.
TRUMP's Co-Conspirator
9. Defendant NAUTA was a member of the United States Navy stationed as a valet in the White House during TRUMP's presidency. Beginning in August 2021, NAUTA became an executive assistant in The Office of Donald J. Trump and served as TRUMP's personal aide or "body man." NAUTA reported to TRUMP, worked closely with TRUMP, and traveled with TRUMP.
The Mar-a-Lago Club
10. The Mar-a-Lago Club was located on South Ocean Boulevard in Palm Beach, Florida, and included TRUMP's residence, more than 25 guest rooms, two ballrooms, a spa, a gift store, exercise facilities, office space, and an outdoor pool and patio. As of January 2021, The Mar-a-Lago Club had hundreds of members and was staffed by more than 150 full-time, part-time, and temporary employees.
11. Between January 2021 and August 2022, The Mar-a-Lago Club hosted more than 150 social events, including weddings, movie premieres, and fundraisers that together drew tens of thousands of guests.
12. The United States Secret Service (the "Secret Service") provided protection services to TRUMP and his family after he left office, including at The Mar-a-Lago Club, but it was not responsible for the protection of TRUMP's boxes or their contents. TRUMP did not inform the Secret Service that he was storing boxes containing classified documents at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
Classified Information
13. National security information was information owned by, produced by, produced for, and under the control of the United States government. Pursuant to Executive Order 12958, signed on April 17, 1995, as amended by Executive Order 13292 on March 25, 2003, and Executive Order 13526 on December 29, 2009, national security information was classified as "TOP SECRET," "SECRET," or "CONFIDENTIAL," as follows:
a. Information was classified as TOP SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
b. Information was classified as SECRET if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
c. Information was classified as CONFIDENTIAL if the unauthorized disclosure of that information reasonably could be expected to cause damage to the national security that the original classification authority was able to identify or describe.
14. The classification marking "NOFORN" stood for "Not Releasable to Foreign Nationals" and denoted that dissemination of that information was limited to United States persons.
15. Classified information related to intelligence sources, methods, and analytical processes was designated as Sensitive Compartmented Information ("SCI"). SCI was to be processed, stored, used, or discussed in an accredited Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility ("SCIF"), and only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SCI permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information.
16. When the vulnerability of, or threat to, specific classified information was exceptional, and the normal criteria for determining eligibility for access to classified information were insufficient to protect the information from unauthorized disclosure, the United States could establish Special Access Programs ("SAPs") to further protect the classified information. The number of these programs was to be kept to an absolute minimum and limited to programs in which the number of persons who ordinarily would have access would be reasonably small and commensurate with the objective of providing enhanced protection for the information involved. Only individuals with the appropriate security clearance and additional SAP permissions were authorized to have access to such national security information, which was subject to enhanced handling and storage requirements.
17. Pursuant to Executive Order 13526, information classified at any level could be lawfully accessed only by persons determined by an appropriate United States government official to be eligible for access to classified information and who had signed an approved non-disclosure agreement, who received a security clearance, and who had a "need-to-know" the classified information. After his presidency, TRUMP was not authorized to possess or retain classified documents.
18. Executive Order 13526 provided that a former president could obtain a waiver of the "need-to-know" requirement, if the agency head or senior agency official of the agency that originated the classified information: (1) determined in writing that access was consistent with the interest of national security and (2) took appropriate steps to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure or compromise and ensured that the information was safeguarded in a manner consistent with the order. TRUMP did not obtain any such waiver after his presidency.
The Executive Branch Departments and Agencies Whose Classified Documents TRUMP Retained After His Presidency
19. As part of his official duties as president, TRUMP received intelligence briefings from high-level United States government officials, including briefings from the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, senior White House officials, and a designated briefer. He regularly received a collection of classified intelligence from the United States Intelligence Community ("USIC") known as the "President's Daily Brief."
20. The USIC's mission was to collect, analyze, and deliver foreign intelligence and counterintelligence information to America's leaders, including the president, policymakers, law enforcement, and the military, so they could make sound decisions to protect the United States. The USIC consisted of United States executive branch departments and agencies responsible for the conduct of foreign relations and the protection of national security.
21. After his presidency, TRUMP retained classified documents originated by, or implicating the equities of, multiple USIC members and other executive branch departments and agencies, including the following:
a. The Central Intelligence Agency ("CIA"). CIA was responsible for providing intelligence on foreign countries and global issues to the president and other policymakers to help them make national security decisions.
b. The Department of Defense ("DoD"). DoD was responsible for providing the military forces needed to deter war and ensure national security. Some of the executive branch agencies comprising the USIC were within DoD.
c. The National Security Agency. The National Security Agency was a combat support agency within DoD and a member of the USIC responsible for foreign signals intelligence and cybersecurity. This included collecting, processing, and disseminating to United States policymakers and military leaders foreign intelligence derived from communications and information systems; protecting national security systems; and enabling computer network operations.
d. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency was a combat support agency within DoD responsible for the exploitation and analysis of imagery, imagery intelligence, and geospatial information in support of the national security objectives of the United States and the geospatial intelligence requirements of DoD, the Department of State, and other federal agencies.
e. The National Reconnaissance Office. The National Reconnaissance Office was an agency within DoD responsible for developing, acquiring, launching, and operating space-based surveillance and reconnaissance systems that collected and delivered intelligence to enhance national security.
f. The Department of Energy. The Department of Energy was responsible for maintaining a safe, secure, and effective nuclear deterrent to protect national security, including ensuring the effectiveness of the United States nuclear weapons stockpile without nuclear explosive testing.
g. The Department of State and Bureau of Intelligence and Research. The Department of State was responsible for protecting and promoting United States security, prosperity, and democratic values. Within the Department of State, the Bureau of Intelligence and Research was a member of the USIC and responsible for providing intelligence to inform diplomacy and support United States diplomats.
TRUMP's Public Statements on Classified Information
22. As a candidate for President of the United States, TRUMP made the following public statements, among others, about classified information:
a. On August 18, 2016, TRUMP stated, "In my administration I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law."
b. On September 6, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need to fight this battle by collecting intelligence and then protecting, protecting our classified secrets. ... We can't have someone in the Oval Office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified."
c. On September 7, 2016, TRUMP stated, "[O]ne of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information."
d. On September 19, 2016, TRUMP stated, "We also need the best protection of classified information."
e. On November 3, 2016, TRUMP stated, "Service members here in North Carolina have risked their lives to acquire classified intelligence to protect our country."
23. As President of the United States, on July 26, 2018, TRUMP issued the following statement about classified information:
As the head of the executive branch and Commander in Chief, I have a unique, Constitutional responsibility to protect the Nation's classified information, including by controlling access to it. ... More broadly, the issue of [a former executive branch official's] security clearance raises larger questions about the practice of former officials maintaining access to our Nation's most sensitive secrets long after their time in Government has ended. Such access is particularly inappropriate when former officials have transitioned into highly partisan positions and seek to use real or perceived access to sensitive information to validate their political attacks. Any access granted to our Nation's secrets should be in furtherance of national, not personal, interests.
TRUMP's Retention of Classified Documents After His Presidency
24. In January 2021, as he was preparing to leave the White House, TRUMP and his White House staff, including NAUTA, packed items, including some of TRUMP's boxes. TRUMP was personally involved in this process. TRUMP caused his boxes, containing hundreds of classified documents, to be transported from the White House to The Mar-a-Lago Club.
25. From January through March 15, 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were stored in The Mar-a-Lago Club's White and Gold Ballroom, in which events and gatherings took place. TRUMP's boxes were for a time stacked on the ballroom's stage, as depicted in the photograph below (redacted to obscure an individual's identity).
26. In March 2021, NAUTA and others moved some of TRUMP's boxes from the White and Gold Ballroom to the business center at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
27. On April 5, 2021, an employee of The Office of Donald J. Trump ("Trump Employee 1") texted another employee of that office ("Trump Employee 2") to ask whether TRUMP's boxes could be moved out of the business center to make room for staff to use it as an office. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Woah! Ok so potus specifically asked Walt for those boxes to be in the business center because they are his 'papers.'" Later that day, Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2 exchanged the following text messages:
Trump Employee 2:We can definitely make it work if we move his papers into the lake room?
Trump Employee 1:There is still a little room in the shower where his other stuff is. Is it only his papers he cares about? Theres some other stuff in there that are not papers. Could that go to storage? Or does he want everything in there on property
Trump Employee 2:Yes - anything that's not the beautiful mind [movie: A Beautiful Mind, directed by Ron Howard] paper boxes can definitely go to storage. Want to take a look at the space and start moving tomorrow AM?
28. After the text exchange between Trump Employee 1 and Trump Employee 2, in April 2021, some of TRUMP's boxes were moved from the business center to a bathroom and shower in The Mar-a-Lago Club's Lake Room, as depicted in the photograph below.
29. In May 2021, TRUMP directed that a storage room on the ground floor of The Mar-a-Lago Club (the "Storage Room") be cleaned out so that it could be used to store his boxes. The hallway leading to the Storage Room could be reached from multiple outside entrances, including one accessible from The Mar-a-Lago Club pool patio through a doorway that was often kept open. The Storage Room was near the liquor supply closet, linen room, lock shop, and various other rooms.
30. On June 24, 2021, TRUMP's boxes that were in the Lake Room were moved to the Storage Room. After the move, there were more than 80 boxes in the Storage Room, as depicted in the photographs below.
31. On December 7, 2021, NAUTA found several of TRUMP's boxes fallen and their contents spilled onto the floor of the Storage Room, including a document marked "SECRET/REL TO USA, FVEY," which denoted that the information in the document was releasable only to the Five Eyes intelligence alliance consisting of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2, "I opened the door and found this ... " NAUTA also attached two photographs he took of the spill. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Oh no oh no," and "I'm sorry potus had my phone." One of the photographs NAUTA texted to Trump Employee 2 is depicted below with the visible classified information redacted. TRUMP's unlawful retention of this document is charged in Count 8 of this Indictment.
TRUMP's Disclosures of Classified Information in Private Meetings
32. In May 2021, TRUMP caused some of his boxes to be brought to his summer residence at The Bedminster Club. Like The Mar-a-Lago Club, after TRUMP's presidency, The Bedminster Club was not an authorized location for the storage, possession, review, display, or discussion of classified documents.
33. On July 21, 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP gave an interview in his office at The Bedminster Club to a writer and a publisher in connection with a then-forthcoming book. Two members of TRUMP's staff also attended the interview, which was recorded with TRUMP's knowledge and consent. Before the interview, the media had published reports that, at the end of TRUMP's term as president, a senior military official (the "Senior Military Official") purportedly feared that TRUMP might order an attack on Country A and that the Senior Military Official advised TRUMP against doing so.
34. Upon greeting the writer, publisher, and his two staff members, TRUMP stated, "Look what I found, this was [the Senior Military Official's] plan of attack, read it and just show ... it's interesting." Later in the interview, TRUMP engaged in the following exchange:
TRUMP: Well, with [the Senior Military Official] -- uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack [Country A]. Isn't it amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They presented me this -- this is off the record, but -- they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him.
WRITER: Wow.
TRUMP: We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him. All sorts of stuff -- pages long, look.
STAFFER: Mm.
TRUMP: Wait a minute, let's see here.
STAFFER: [Laughter] Yeah.
TRUMP: I just found, isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know.
STAFFER: Mm-hm.
TRUMP: Except it is like, highly confidential.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]
TRUMP: Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. You attack, and --
* * *
TRUMP: By the way. Isn't that incredible?
STAFFER: Yeah.
TRUMP: I was just thinking, because we were talking about it. And you know, he said, "he wanted to attack [Country A], and what ... "
STAFFER: You did.
TRUMP: This was done by the military and given to me. Uh, I think we can probably, right?
STAFFER: I don't know, we'll, we'll have to see. Yeah, we'll have to try to --
TRUMP: Declassify it.
STAFFER: -- figure out a -- yeah.
TRUMP: See as president I could have declassified it.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter]
TRUMP: Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.
STAFFER: Yeah. [Laughter] Now we have a problem.
TRUMP: Isn't that interesting?
At the time of this exchange, the writer, the publisher, and TRUMP's two staff members did not have security clearances or any need-to-know any classified information about a plan of attack on Country A.
35. In August or September 2021, when he was no longer president, TRUMP met in his office at The Bedminster Club with a representative of his political action committee (the "PAC Representative"). During the meeting, TRUMP commented that an ongoing military operation in Country B was not going well. TRUMP showed the PAC Representative a classified map of Country B and told the PAC Representative that he should not be showing the map to the PAC Representative and to not get too close. The PAC Representative did not have a security clearance or any need-to-know classified information about the military operation.
36. On February 16, 2017, four years before TRUMP's disclosures of classified information set forth above, TRUMP said at a press conference:
The first thing I thought of when I heard about it is, how does the press get this information that's classified? How do they do it? You know why? Because it's an illegal process, and the press should be ashamed of themselves. But more importantly, the people that gave out the information to the press should be ashamed of themselves. Really ashamed.
TRUMP's Production of 15 Cardboard Boxes to the National Archives and Records Administration
37. Beginning in May 2021, the National Archives and Records Administration ("NARA"), which was responsible for archiving presidential records, repeatedly demanded that TRUMP turn over presidential records that he had kept after his presidency. On multiple occasions, beginning in June, NARA warned TRUMP through his representatives that if he did not comply, it would refer the matter of the missing records to the Department of Justice.
38. Between November 2021 and January 2022, NAUTA and Trump Employee 2 -- at TRUMP's direction -- brought boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence for TRUMP to review.
39. On November 12,2021, Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP a photograph of his boxes in the Storage Room by taping it to one of the boxes that Trump Employee 2 had placed in TRUMP's residence. Trump Employee 2 provided TRUMP the photograph so that TRUMP could see how many of his boxes were stored in the Storage Room. The photograph, shown below, depicted a wall of the Storage Room against which dozens of TRUMP's boxes were stacked.
40. On November 17, 2021, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about the photograph Trump Employee 2 had provided to TRUMP, stating, "He mentioned about a picture of the 'boxes' he wants me to see it?" Trump Employee 2 replied, "Calling you shortly."
41. On November 25, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA about TRUMP's review of the contents of his boxes, asking, "Has he mentioned boxes to you? I delivered some, but I think he may need more. Could you ask if he'd like more in pine hall?" Pine Hall was an entry room in TRUMP's residence. NAUTA replied in three successive text messages:
Nothing about boxes yet
He has one he's working on in pine hall
Knocked out 2 boxes yesterday
42. On November 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted NAUTA, asking, "Next you are on property (no rush) could you help me bring 4 more boxes up?" NAUTA replied, "Yes!! Of course."
43. On December 29, 2021, Trump Employee 2 texted a TRUMP representative who was in contact with NARA ("Trump Representative 1"), "box answer will be wrenched out of him today, promise!" The next day, Trump Representative 1 replied in two successive text messages:
Hey - Just checking on Boxes ...
would love to have a number to them today
Trump Employee 2 spoke to TRUMP and then responded a few hours later in two successive text messages:
12
Is his number
44. On January 13, 2022, NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2 about TRUMP's "tracking" of boxes, stating, "He's tracking the boxes, more to follow today on whether he wants to go through more today or tomorrow." Trump Employee 2 replied, "Thank you!"
45. On January 15, 2022, NAUTA sent Trump Employee 2 four successive text messages:
One thing he asked
Was for new covers for the boxes, for Monday m.
Morning
*can we get new box covers before giving these to them on Monday? They have too much writing on them..I marked too much
Trump Employee 2 replied, "Yes, I will get that!"
46. On January 17, 2022, Trump Employee 2 and NAUTA gathered 15 boxes from TRUMP's residence, loaded the boxes in NAUTA's car, and took them to a commercial truck for delivery to NARA.
47. When interviewed by the FBI in May 2022 regarding the location and movement of boxes before the production to NARA, NAUTA made false and misleading statements as set forth in Count 38 of this Indictment, including:
a. falsely stating that he was not aware of TRUMP's boxes being brought to TRUMP's residence for his review before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA in January 2022;
b. falsely stating that he did not know how the boxes that he and Trump Employee 2 brought from TRUMP's residence to the commercial truck for delivery to NARA on January 17, 2022, had gotten to the residence; and
c. when asked whether he knew where TRUMP's boxes had been stored before they were in TRUMP's residence and whether they had been in a secure or locked location, NAUTA falsely responded, "I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don't know. I don't -- I honestly just don't know."
48. When the 15 boxes that TRUMP had provided reached NARA in January 2022, NARA reviewed the contents and determined that 14 of the boxes contained documents with classification markings. Specifically, as the FBI later determined, the boxes contained 197 documents with classification markings, of which 98 were marked "SECRET," 30 were marked "TOP SECRET," and the remainder were marked "CONFIDENTIAL." Some of those documents also contained SCI and SAP markings.
49. On February 9, 2022, NARA referred the discovery of classified documents in TRUMP's boxes to the Department of Justice for investigation.
The FBI and Grand Jury Investigations
50. On March 30, 2022, the FBI opened a criminal investigation.
51. On April 26, 2022, a federal grand jury opened an investigation.
The Defendants' Concealment of Boxes
52. On May 11, 2022, the grand jury issued a subpoena (the "May 11 Subpoena") to The Office of Donald J. Trump requiring the production of all documents with classification markings in the possession, custody, or control of TRUMP or The Office of Donald J. Trump. Two attorneys representing TRUMP ("Trump Attorney 1" [Matthew Evan Corcoran?] and "Trump Attorney 2" [Lindsey R. Halligan?]) informed TRUMP of the May 11 Subpoena, and he authorized Trump Attorney 1 to accept service.
53. On May 22, 2022, NAUTA entered the Storage Room at 3:47 p.m. and left approximately 34 minutes later, carrying one of TRUMP's boxes.
54. On May 23, 2022, TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 at The Mar-a-Lago Club to discuss the response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 told TRUMP that they needed to search for documents that would be responsive to the subpoena and provide a certification that there had been compliance with the subpoena. TRUMP, in sum and substance, made the following statements, among others, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
a. I don't want anybody looking, I don't want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don't, I don't want you looking through my boxes.
b. Well what if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them?
c. Wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything here?
d. Well look isn't it better if there are no documents?
55. While meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP, in sum and substance, told the following story, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
[Attorney], he was great, he did a great job. You know what? He said, he said that it -- that it was him. That he was the one who deleted all of her emails, the 30,000 emails, because they basically dealt with her scheduling and her going to the gym and her having beauty appointments. And he was great. And he, so she didn't get in any trouble because he said that he was the one who deleted them.
TRUMP related the story more than once that day.
56. On May 23, TRUMP also confirmed his understanding with Trump Attorney 1 that Trump Attorney 1 would return to The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2 to search for any documents with classification markings to produce in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 1 made it clear to TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 would conduct the search for responsive documents by looking through TRUMP's boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club. TRUMP indicated that he wanted to be at The Mar-a-Lago Club when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review his boxes on June 2, and that TRUMP would change his summer travel plans to do so. TRUMP told Trump Attorney 2 that Trump Attorney 2 did not need to be present for the review of boxes.
57. After meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 on May 23, TRUMP delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club to The Bedminster Club for the summer so that he would be present at The Mar-a-Lago Club on June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to review the boxes.
58. Between TRUMP's May 23 meeting with Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 2 to discuss the May 11 Subpoena, and June 2, when Trump Attorney 1 returned to The Mar-a-Lago Club to review the boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA removed -- at TRUMP's direction -- a total of approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room and brought them to TRUMP's residence, as set forth below:
a. On May 24, 2022, between 5:30 p.m. and 5:38 p.m., NAUTA removed three boxes from the Storage Room.
b. On May 30, 2022, at 9:08 a.m., TRUMP and NAUTA spoke by phone for approximately 30 seconds. Between 10:02 a.m. and 11:51 a.m., NAUTA removed a total of approximately 50 boxes from the Storage Room.
c. On May 30, 2022, at 12:33 p.m., a Trump family member [Melania Trump?] texted NAUTA:
Good afternoon Walt,
Happy Memorial Day!
I saw you put boxes to Potus room. Just FYI and I
will tell him as well:
Not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the
plane. We will NOT have a room for them. Plane will
be full with luggage.
Thank you!
NAUTA replied:
Good Afternoon Ma'am [Smiley Face Emoji]
Thank you so much.
I think he wanted to pick from them. I don't imagine
him wanting to take the boxes.
He told me to put them in the room and that he was
going to talk to you about them.
d. On June 1, 2022, beginning at 12:52 p.m., NAUTA removed approximately 11 boxes from the Storage Room.
59. On June 1, 2022, TRUMP spoke with Trump Attorney 1 by phone and asked whether Trump Attorney 1 was coming to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day and for exactly what purpose. Trump Attorney 1 reminded TRUMP that Trump Attorney 1 was going to review the boxes that had been transported from the White House and remained in storage at The Mar-a-Lago Club so that Trump Attorney 1 could have a custodian of records certify that the May 11 subpoena had been complied with fully.
60. On June 2, 2022, the day that Trump Attorney 1 was scheduled to review TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, TRUMP spoke with NAUTA on the phone at 9:29 a.m. for approximately 24 seconds.
61. Later that day, between 12:33 p.m. and 12:52 p.m., NAUTA and an employee of The Mar-a-Lago Club moved approximately 30 boxes from TRUMP's residence to the Storage Room.
62. In sum, between May 23, 2022, and June 2, 2022, before Trump Attorney 1's review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, NAUTA -- at TRUMP's direction -- moved approximately 64 boxes from the Storage Room to TRUMP's residence and brought to the Storage Room only approximately 30 boxes. Neither TRUMP nor NAUTA informed Trump Attorney 1 of this information.
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:20 am
Part 2 of 2
The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury
63. On the afternoon of June 2, 2022, as TRUMP had been informed, Trump Attorney 1 arrived at The Mar-a-Lago Club to review TRUMP's boxes to look for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the review. NAUTA escorted Trump Attorney 1 to the Storage Room.
64. Between 3:53 p.m. and 6:23 p.m., Trump Attorney 1 reviewed the contents of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room. Trump Attorney 1 located 38 documents with classification markings inside the boxes, which Trump Attorney 1 removed and placed in a Redweld folder. Trump Attorney 1 contacted NAUTA and asked him to bring clear duct tape to the Storage Room, which NAUTA did. Trump Attorney 1 used the clear duct tape to seal the Redweld folder with the documents with classification markings inside.
65. After Trump Attorney 1 finished sealing the Redweld folder containing the documents with classification markings that he had found inside TRUMP's boxes, NAUTA took Trump Attorney 1 to a dining room in The Mar-a-Lago Club to meet with TRUMP. After Trump Attorney 1 confirmed that he was finished with his search of the Storage Room, TRUMP asked, "Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?"
66. TRUMP and Trump Attorney 1 then discussed what to do with the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings and whether Trump Attorney 1 should bring them to his hotel room and put them in a safe there. During that conversation, TRUMP made a plucking motion, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
67. That evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted the Department of Justice and requested that an FBI agent meet him at The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day, June 3, so that he could turn over the documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena.
68. Also that evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted another TRUMP attorney ("Trump Attorney 3" [Christina Bobb?]) and asked her if she would come to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next morning to act as a custodian of records and sign a certification regarding the search for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 3, who had no role in the review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, agreed.
69. The next day, on June 3, 2022, at Trump Attorney 1's request, Trump Attorney 3 signed a certification as the custodian of records for The Office of Donald J. Trump and took it to The Mar-a-Lago Club to provide it to the Department of Justice and FBI. In the certification, Trump Attorney 3 -- who performed no search of TRUMP's boxes; had not reviewed the May 11 Subpoena, and had not reviewed the contents of the Redweld folder -- stated, among other things, that "[ b]ased upon the information that [had] been provided to" her:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
70. These statements were false because, among other reasons, TRUMP had directed NAUTA to move boxes before Trump Attorney 1's June 2 review, so that many boxes were not searched and many documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena could not be found -- and in fact were not found -- by Trump Attorney 1.
71. Shortly after Trump Attorney 3 executed the false certification, on June 3, 2022, Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 met at The Mar-a-Lago Club with personnel from the Department of Justice and FBI. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 turned over the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings, as well as the false certification signed by Trump Attorney 3 as custodian of records. TRUMP, who had delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club, joined Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 for some of the meeting. TRUMP claimed to the Department of Justice and FBI that he was "an open book."
72. Earlier that same day, NAUTA and others loaded several of TRUMP's boxes along with other items on aircraft that flew TRUMP and his family north for the summer.
The Court-Authorized Search of The Mar-a-Lago Club
73. In July 2022, the FBI and grand jury obtained and reviewed surveillance video from The Mar-a-Lago Club showing the movement of boxes set forth above.
74. On August 8, 2022, the FBI executed a court-authorized search warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club. The search warrant authorized the FBI to search for and seize, among other things, all documents with classification markings.
75. During the execution of the warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club, the FBI seized 102 documents with classification markings in TRUMP's office and the Storage Room, as follows:
COUNTS 1-31
Willful Retention of National Defense Information
(18 U.S.C. §793(e))
76. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
77. On or about the dates set forth in the table below, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
having unauthorized possession of, access to, and control over documents relating to the national defense, did willfully retain the documents and fail to deliver them to the officer and employee of the United States entitled to receive them; that is -- TRUMP, without authorization, retained at The Mar-a-Lago Club documents relating to the national defense, including the following:
COUNT 32
Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice (18 U.S.C. § 1512(k))
78. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
The Conspiracy and its Objects
79. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and with others known and unknown to the grand jury, to engage in misleading conduct toward another person and corruptly persuade another person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(2)(A), and to corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512( c)(1).
The Purpose of the Conspiracy
80. The purpose of the conspiracy was for TRUMP to keep classified documents he had taken with him from the White House and to hide and conceal them from a federal grand jury.
The Manner and Means of the Conspiracy
81. The manner and means by which the defendants sought to accomplish the objects and purpose of the conspiracy included, among other things, the following:
a. Suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
b. moving boxes of documents to conceal them from Trump Attorney 1, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 hide or destroy documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena, while TRUMP claimed he was cooperating fully;
e. causing a false certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury representing that all documents with classification markings had been produced, when in fact they had not; and
f. making false and misleading statements to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1512(k).
COUNT 33
Withholding a Document or Record
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(b)(2)(A), 2)
82. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
83. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly engage in misleading conduct toward another person, and knowingly corruptly persuade and attempt to persuade another person, with intent to cause and induce any person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding; that is -- (1) TRUMP attempted to persuade Trump Attorney 1 to hide and conceal documents from a federal grand jury; and (2) TRUMP and NAUTA misled Trump Attorney 1 by moving boxes that contained documents with classification markings so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United states Code, Sections 1512(b)(2)(A) and 2.
COUNT 34
Corruptly Concealing a Document or Record
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(c)(1), 2)
84. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
85. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object, and attempted to do so, with the intent to impair the object's integrity and availability for use in an official proceeding; that is -- TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed boxes that contained documents with classification markings from Trump Attorney 1 so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1512(c)(1) and 2.
COUNT 35
Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1519, 2)
86. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
87. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and. elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly conceal, cover up, falsify, and make a false entry in any record, document, and tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, and influence the investigation and proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of a department and agency of the United States, and in relation to and contemplation of any such matter; that is -- during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, (1) TRUMP and NAUTA hid, concealed, and covered up from the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings at The Mar-a-Lago Club; and (2) TRUMP caused a false certification to be submitted to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1519 and 2.
COUNT 36
Scheme to Conceal
(18 U.S.C.§§ 1001(a)(1), 2)
88. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
89. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully falsify, conceal, and cover up by any trick, scheme, and device a material fact; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed from the grand jury and the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(1) and 2.
COUNT 37
False Statements and Representations
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1001(a)(2), 2)
90. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
91. On or about June 3, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make and cause to be made a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP caused the following false statements and representations to be made to the grand jury and the FBI in a sworn certification executed by Trump Attorney 3:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
92. The statements and representations set forth above were false, as TRUMP knew, because TRUMP had directed that boxes be removed from the Storage Room before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the June 2, 2022 search for documents with classification markings, so that Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not include all of TRUMP's boxes that were removed from the White House; Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not locate all documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena; and all responsive documents were not provided to the FBI and the grand jury with the certification. In fact, after June 3, 2022, more than 100 documents with classification markings remained at The Mar-a-Lago Club until the FBI search on August 8, 2022.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(2) and 2.
COUNT 38
False Statements and Representations
(18 U.S.C.§ 1001(a)(2))
93. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
94. On May 26, 2022, NAUTA participated in a voluntary interview with the FBI. During the interview, the FBI explained to NAUTA that the FBI was investigating how classified documents had been kept at The Mar-a-Lago Club, and the FBI asked NAUTA questions about the location and movement of TRUMP's boxes before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA on January 17, 2022. NAUTA was represented by counsel, and the FBI advised NAUTA that the interview was voluntary and that he could leave at any time. The FBI also advised NAUTA that it was a criminal offense to lie to the FBI. The interview was recorded.
95. On or about May 26, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- in a voluntary interview during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, NAUTA was asked the following questions and gave the following false answers:
96. The underscored statements and representations above were false, as NAUTA knew, because (1) NAUTA did in fact know that the boxes in Pine Hall had come from the Storage Room, as NAUTA himself, with the assistance of Trump Employee 2, had moved the boxes from the Storage Room to Pine Hall; and (2) NAUTA had observed the boxes in and moved them to various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001(a)(2),
A TRUE BILL
____________ (Signed)
FOREPERSON
____________ (Signed)
JACK SMITH
SPECIAL COUNSEL
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
The False Certification to the FBI and the Grand Jury
63. On the afternoon of June 2, 2022, as TRUMP had been informed, Trump Attorney 1 arrived at The Mar-a-Lago Club to review TRUMP's boxes to look for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. TRUMP met with Trump Attorney 1 before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the review. NAUTA escorted Trump Attorney 1 to the Storage Room.
64. Between 3:53 p.m. and 6:23 p.m., Trump Attorney 1 reviewed the contents of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room. Trump Attorney 1 located 38 documents with classification markings inside the boxes, which Trump Attorney 1 removed and placed in a Redweld folder. Trump Attorney 1 contacted NAUTA and asked him to bring clear duct tape to the Storage Room, which NAUTA did. Trump Attorney 1 used the clear duct tape to seal the Redweld folder with the documents with classification markings inside.
65. After Trump Attorney 1 finished sealing the Redweld folder containing the documents with classification markings that he had found inside TRUMP's boxes, NAUTA took Trump Attorney 1 to a dining room in The Mar-a-Lago Club to meet with TRUMP. After Trump Attorney 1 confirmed that he was finished with his search of the Storage Room, TRUMP asked, "Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?"
66. TRUMP and Trump Attorney 1 then discussed what to do with the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings and whether Trump Attorney 1 should bring them to his hotel room and put them in a safe there. During that conversation, TRUMP made a plucking motion, as memorialized by Trump Attorney 1:
He made a funny motion as though -- well okay why don't you take them with you to your hotel room and if there's anything really bad in there, like, you know, pluck it out. And that was the motion that he made. He didn't say that.
67. That evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted the Department of Justice and requested that an FBI agent meet him at The Mar-a-Lago Club the next day, June 3, so that he could turn over the documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena.
68. Also that evening, Trump Attorney 1 contacted another TRUMP attorney ("Trump Attorney 3" [Christina Bobb?]) and asked her if she would come to The Mar-a-Lago Club the next morning to act as a custodian of records and sign a certification regarding the search for documents with classification markings in response to the May 11 Subpoena. Trump Attorney 3, who had no role in the review of TRUMP's boxes in the Storage Room, agreed.
69. The next day, on June 3, 2022, at Trump Attorney 1's request, Trump Attorney 3 signed a certification as the custodian of records for The Office of Donald J. Trump and took it to The Mar-a-Lago Club to provide it to the Department of Justice and FBI. In the certification, Trump Attorney 3 -- who performed no search of TRUMP's boxes; had not reviewed the May 11 Subpoena, and had not reviewed the contents of the Redweld folder -- stated, among other things, that "[ b]ased upon the information that [had] been provided to" her:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
70. These statements were false because, among other reasons, TRUMP had directed NAUTA to move boxes before Trump Attorney 1's June 2 review, so that many boxes were not searched and many documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena could not be found -- and in fact were not found -- by Trump Attorney 1.
71. Shortly after Trump Attorney 3 executed the false certification, on June 3, 2022, Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 met at The Mar-a-Lago Club with personnel from the Department of Justice and FBI. Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 turned over the Redweld folder containing documents with classification markings, as well as the false certification signed by Trump Attorney 3 as custodian of records. TRUMP, who had delayed his departure from The Mar-a-Lago Club, joined Trump Attorney 1 and Trump Attorney 3 for some of the meeting. TRUMP claimed to the Department of Justice and FBI that he was "an open book."
72. Earlier that same day, NAUTA and others loaded several of TRUMP's boxes along with other items on aircraft that flew TRUMP and his family north for the summer.
The Court-Authorized Search of The Mar-a-Lago Club
73. In July 2022, the FBI and grand jury obtained and reviewed surveillance video from The Mar-a-Lago Club showing the movement of boxes set forth above.
74. On August 8, 2022, the FBI executed a court-authorized search warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club. The search warrant authorized the FBI to search for and seize, among other things, all documents with classification markings.
75. During the execution of the warrant at The Mar-a-Lago Club, the FBI seized 102 documents with classification markings in TRUMP's office and the Storage Room, as follows:
Location / Number of Documents / Classification Markings
TRUMP's Office / 27 / Top Secret (6); Secret (18); Confidential (3)
Storage Room / 75 / Top Secret (11); Secret (36); Confidential (28)
COUNTS 1-31
Willful Retention of National Defense Information
(18 U.S.C. §793(e))
76. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
77. On or about the dates set forth in the table below, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
having unauthorized possession of, access to, and control over documents relating to the national defense, did willfully retain the documents and fail to deliver them to the officer and employee of the United States entitled to receive them; that is -- TRUMP, without authorization, retained at The Mar-a-Lago Club documents relating to the national defense, including the following:
Count / Date of Offense / Classification Marking / Document Description
1 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//NOFORN//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 3, 2018, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
2 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 9, 2018, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
3 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN//FISA / Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States, with handwritten annotation in black marker
4 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated May 6, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to foreign countries, including military activities and planning of foreign countries
5 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated June 2020 concerning nuclear capabilities of a foreign country
6 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated June 4, 2020, concerning White House
7 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Document dated October 21, 2018, concerning communications with a leader of a foreign country
8 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//REL TO USA, FVEY / Document dated October 4, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
9 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Undated document concerning military attacks by a foreign country
10 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//TK//NOFORN / Document dated November 2017 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
11 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / No marking / Undated document concerning military contingency planning of the United States
12 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//REL TO USA, FVEY / Pages of undated document concerning projected regional military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States
13 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Undated document concerning military capabilities of a foreign country and the United States
14 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated January 2020 concerning military options of a foreign country and potential effects on United States interests
15 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated February 2020 concerning policies in a foreign country
16 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated December 2019 concerning foreign country support of terrorist acts against United States interests
17 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/TK//ORCON/IMCON/NOFORN / Document dated January 2020 concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
18 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Document dated March 2020 concerning military operations against United States forces and others
19 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA / Undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States
20 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN / Undated document concerning timeline and details of attack in a foreign country
21 / January 20, 2021 - August 8, 2022 / SECRET//NOFORN / Undated document concerning military capabilities of foreign countries
22 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//RSEN/ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated August 2019 concerning regional military activity of a foreign country
23 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated August 30, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries, with handwritten annotation in black marker
24 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//HCWS-P/SI//ORCON-USGOV/NOFORN / Undated document concerning military activity of a foreign country
25 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//HCS-P/SI//ORCON-USGOV/NOFORN / Document dated October 24, 2019, concerning military activity of foreign countries and the United States
26 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Document dated November 7, 2019, concerning military activity of foreign countries and the United States
27 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Document dated November 2019 concerning military activity of foreign countries
28 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SPECIAL HANDLING / Document dated October 18, 2019, concerning White House intelligence briefing related to various foreign countries
29 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]/SI/TK//ORCON/NOFORN / Document dated October 18, 2019, concerning military capabilities of a foreign country
30 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//[redacted]//ORCON/NOFORN/FISA / Document dated October 15, 2019, concerning military activity in a foreign country
31 / January 20, 2021 - June 3, 2022 / TOP SECRET//SI/TK//NOFORN / Document dated February 2017 concerning military activity of a foreign country
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 793(e).
COUNT 32
Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice (18 U.S.C. § 1512(k))
78. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
The Conspiracy and its Objects
79. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and with others known and unknown to the grand jury, to engage in misleading conduct toward another person and corruptly persuade another person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(2)(A), and to corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512( c)(1).
The Purpose of the Conspiracy
80. The purpose of the conspiracy was for TRUMP to keep classified documents he had taken with him from the White House and to hide and conceal them from a federal grand jury.
The Manner and Means of the Conspiracy
81. The manner and means by which the defendants sought to accomplish the objects and purpose of the conspiracy included, among other things, the following:
a. Suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 falsely represent to the FBI and grand jury that TRUMP did not have documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
b. moving boxes of documents to conceal them from Trump Attorney 1, the FBI, and the grand jury;
c. suggesting that Trump Attorney 1 hide or destroy documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena;
d. providing to the FBI and grand jury just some of the documents called for by the May 11 Subpoena, while TRUMP claimed he was cooperating fully;
e. causing a false certification to be submitted to the FBI and grand jury representing that all documents with classification markings had been produced, when in fact they had not; and
f. making false and misleading statements to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1512(k).
COUNT 33
Withholding a Document or Record
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(b)(2)(A), 2)
82. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
83. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly engage in misleading conduct toward another person, and knowingly corruptly persuade and attempt to persuade another person, with intent to cause and induce any person to withhold a record, document, and other object from an official proceeding; that is -- (1) TRUMP attempted to persuade Trump Attorney 1 to hide and conceal documents from a federal grand jury; and (2) TRUMP and NAUTA misled Trump Attorney 1 by moving boxes that contained documents with classification markings so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United states Code, Sections 1512(b)(2)(A) and 2.
COUNT 34
Corruptly Concealing a Document or Record
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1512(c)(1), 2)
84. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
85. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object, and attempted to do so, with the intent to impair the object's integrity and availability for use in an official proceeding; that is -- TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed boxes that contained documents with classification markings from Trump Attorney 1 so that Trump Attorney 1 would not find the documents and produce them to a federal grand jury.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1512(c)(1) and 2.
COUNT 35
Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1519, 2)
86. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
87. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and. elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
did knowingly conceal, cover up, falsify, and make a false entry in any record, document, and tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, and influence the investigation and proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of a department and agency of the United States, and in relation to and contemplation of any such matter; that is -- during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, (1) TRUMP and NAUTA hid, concealed, and covered up from the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings at The Mar-a-Lago Club; and (2) TRUMP caused a false certification to be submitted to the FBI.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1519 and 2.
COUNT 36
Scheme to Conceal
(18 U.S.C.§§ 1001(a)(1), 2)
88. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
89. From on or about May 11, 2022, through in or around August 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendants,
DONALD J. TRUMP and
WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully falsify, conceal, and cover up by any trick, scheme, and device a material fact; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP and NAUTA hid and concealed from the grand jury and the FBI TRUMP's continued possession of documents with classification markings.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(1) and 2.
COUNT 37
False Statements and Representations
(18 U.S.C. §§ 1001(a)(2), 2)
90. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
91. On or about June 3, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
DONALD J. TRUMP,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the judicial branch and executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make and cause to be made a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- during a federal grand jury investigation and a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, TRUMP caused the following false statements and representations to be made to the grand jury and the FBI in a sworn certification executed by Trump Attorney 3:
a. "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida";
b. "This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena"; and
c. "Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification."
92. The statements and representations set forth above were false, as TRUMP knew, because TRUMP had directed that boxes be removed from the Storage Room before Trump Attorney 1 conducted the June 2, 2022 search for documents with classification markings, so that Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not include all of TRUMP's boxes that were removed from the White House; Trump Attorney 1's search would not and did not locate all documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena; and all responsive documents were not provided to the FBI and the grand jury with the certification. In fact, after June 3, 2022, more than 100 documents with classification markings remained at The Mar-a-Lago Club until the FBI search on August 8, 2022.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001(a)(2) and 2.
COUNT 38
False Statements and Representations
(18 U.S.C.§ 1001(a)(2))
93. The General Allegations of this Indictment are re-alleged and fully incorporated here by reference.
94. On May 26, 2022, NAUTA participated in a voluntary interview with the FBI. During the interview, the FBI explained to NAUTA that the FBI was investigating how classified documents had been kept at The Mar-a-Lago Club, and the FBI asked NAUTA questions about the location and movement of TRUMP's boxes before TRUMP provided 15 boxes to NARA on January 17, 2022. NAUTA was represented by counsel, and the FBI advised NAUTA that the interview was voluntary and that he could leave at any time. The FBI also advised NAUTA that it was a criminal offense to lie to the FBI. The interview was recorded.
95. On or about May 26, 2022, in Palm Beach County, in the Southern District of Florida, and elsewhere, the defendant,
WALTINE NAUTA,
in a matter within the jurisdiction of the executive branch of the United States government, did knowingly and willfully make a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement and representation; that is -- in a voluntary interview during a federal criminal investigation being conducted by the FBI, NAUTA was asked the following questions and gave the following false answers:
Question: Does any -- are you aware of any boxes being brought to his home -- his suite?
Answer: No.
* * *
Question: All right. So, so to the best of your knowledge, you're saying that those boxes that you brought onto the truck, first time you ever laid eyes on them was just the day of when [Trump Employee 2] needed you to --
Answer: Correct.
Question: -- to take them. Okay.
* * *
Question: In knowing that we're trying to track the life of these boxes and where they could have been kept and stored and all that kind of stuff --
Answer: Mm-hm.
Question: -- do you have any information that could -- that would -- that could help us understand, like, where they were kept, how they were kept, were they secured, were they locked? Something that makes the intelligence community feel better about these things, you know?
Answer: I wish, I wish I could tell you. I don't know. I don't -- I honestly just don't know.
* * *
Question: And what -- so, so you only saw the 15 boxes, 15, 17 boxes --
Answer: Mm-hm.
Question: -- the day of the move? Even -- they just showed up that day?
Answer: They were in Pine Hall. [Trump Employee 2], just asked me, hey, can we move some boxes?
Question: Okay.
Answer: And I was like, okay.
Question: So, you didn't know -- had no idea how they got there before?
Answer: No.
96. The underscored statements and representations above were false, as NAUTA knew, because (1) NAUTA did in fact know that the boxes in Pine Hall had come from the Storage Room, as NAUTA himself, with the assistance of Trump Employee 2, had moved the boxes from the Storage Room to Pine Hall; and (2) NAUTA had observed the boxes in and moved them to various locations at The Mar-a-Lago Club.
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001(a)(2),
A TRUE BILL
____________ (Signed)
FOREPERSON
____________ (Signed)
JACK SMITH
SPECIAL COUNSEL
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:00 pm
Part 1 of 2
Trump INDICTMENT and WHAT’S NEXT
Legal AF MeidasTouch
Streamed live 22 hours ago Legal AF Podcast - Full Episodes
6/10/23
The top-rated legal and political podcast Legal AF is back for another hard-hitting look at the most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this special edition, all three Legal AF anchors, Ben Meiselas, Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo, join together to discuss the historic 37 count criminal federal indictment of Donald Trump for violations of the Espionage Act and for conspiracy to obstruct justice, among other things and what happens next including the arraignment next week, and so much more.
Transcript
0:00
foreign [Music] has been criminally indicted for his
0:06
willful retention of National Defense information false statements conspiracy
0:14
and obstruction of justice in federal court in the southern district of
0:20
Florida by a grand jury there in a powerful detailed speaking indictment
0:27
with 38 criminal counts special counsel Jack Smith lays out the case against
0:35
criminal defendant Donald Trump and his criminal code defendant and personal
0:41
aide Walt nauta the criminal indictment contains photographs of boxes with
0:48
highly classified information in bathrooms on the floor in auditoriums
0:55
all totally unsecured the indictment contains text messages from from Trump's
1:01
employees like Walton out to end others showing Donald Trump was directly
1:07
involved at every step in trying to deceive the FBI and the Department of
1:13
Justice by trying to keep these classified records the indictment also
1:19
includes underwrote testimony from Witnesses against Donald Trump and It
1:24
quotes audio recordings of Donald Trump showing classified documents to people
1:30
and bragging about it Donald Trump will be criminally arraigned in a Miami
1:35
Federal Courthouse this Tuesday and already Donald Trump and groups like The
1:42
Proud boys and other right-wing extremists are trying to incite violence
1:47
in front of the courthouse meanwhile Donald Trump's lawyers Jim trustee and
1:53
John Rowley who led his legal defense in connection with special counsel Jack
1:58
Smith's criminal investigation into Trump's theft of these government records have officially left the legal
2:06
team but get this the case against Donald Trump has been randomly assigned to
2:13
disgraced federal judge Eileen cannon from the southern district of Florida a
2:18
2020 Trump appointee who we all know because she was previously reprimanded
2:24
by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals not once but twice for improperly asserting
2:31
jurisdiction for Donald Trump over the department of Justice's search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago last year we will
2:39
break down all aspects of this criminal indictment and what happens next also
2:45
let's not forget that special counsel Jack Smith has another criminal investigation still taking place of
2:52
Donald Trump relating to the January 6th Insurrection and Donald Trump's attempt
2:58
to overthrow our government and destroy our democracy and Jack Smith is moving
3:03
closer to another criminal indictment in that matter on Friday the federal judge
3:10
presiding over that grand jury in Washington D.C partially unsealed his
3:15
order from March when he compelled former vice president Mike Pence to
3:21
testify before the grand jurian when you read this order it also shows how very
3:28
very damaging the evidence is against Donald Trump in that matter a historic
3:34
episode of legal AF and no other way to do this when with both co-hosts Michael
3:40
popock and Karen Friedman agnifolo how you doing both popock how are you doing
3:45
I'm doing I'm doing great Proud to be an attorney an American
3:51
a patriot at a part of the justice system in my own way and here with you
3:56
and Karen um to unpack it all we've done it in hot ticks kind of on the fly but this is our
4:02
first opportunity together to analyze what's happened talk about things that are agitating our listeners
4:09
and followers hopefully give them some remedy some bomb for that and then talk about what's going to happen next with
4:15
Tuesday's arraignment hi Karen Karen how are you I'm good thanks for letting me join
4:21
I'm excited about it always not only is it an honor when you join but it is it
4:28
adds extra Delight to these uh weekend legal AFS when the gang is all here together but let's dive right into it
4:36
first let's talk about what this indictment is when we learned about it
4:42
what the various accounts are 38 counts what the charges are let's just break
4:50
down Michael popock what is actually in this indictment I laid out in very broad
4:55
terms what's in there but let me pass it to you great I'll do that then and um
5:01
secondly I do want to address the elephant in the room no pun intended with the GOP Eileen Cannon being
5:08
assigned I have a different theory about what may happen on Tuesday and I will share it and analyze it here but I'll
5:14
tease that but let's get back to what you asked me um I'm going to give two two keys key e
5:19
k e y that people can use when they read disintitement we of course have posted it all over and we'll talk about it at
5:25
length today there are 37 counts against Donald Trump
5:30
and and including some with that he shares with Walt nauta his valet Butler
5:36
body man it depends on what era you grew up uh that was his role from uh from the
5:42
White House all the way forward forward to Mar-A-Lago and uh one count alone against Walt NADA for false statement
5:49
that gives us a total of 38. the easiest way to group it is of course the way the
5:54
government has grouped it 31 of those counts are for individual violations of
6:01
the Espionage Act document by document by document that's why there's 31 of
6:06
them so there's a list here that we're showing on the screen from the chart within the complaint that shows the 31
6:13
times at least based on current knowledge to the Department of Justice and the grand jury of times when the
6:20
Espionage Act Donald Trump using secreting not returning
6:27
transmitting National Defense information ndi which includes as a
6:34
subset classified and top secret and the highest levels of National Security
6:39
documents that this country owns and possesses including nuclear
6:44
the the fighting capacity of our adversaries and of our allies things
6:50
that if any of those pieces of paper found their way out of the bathroom Ballroom storage room or any other
6:57
semi-public area of Mar-A-Lago or Bedminster or the airplane or the SUV
7:03
all or all the people's hands who touched it who aren't qualified or to
7:08
have classified uh top secret information this country would be imperiled that is
7:14
the gravaman the foundation of this complaint and think about how many people there's 150 people or more that
7:21
work at Mar-A-Lago there's another dozens and dozens that work at Bedminster we know what we know we know
7:28
what was returned forcibly by execution of search warrant and subpoena and a little bit that was
7:35
dribbled back by Donald Trump to the National Archive back at the very beginning we don't need we don't even know what's missing we don't know there
7:42
has to be a working hypothesis that there are documents that are no longer within the care custody and control of
7:48
even Donald Trump because of the way he carelessly maintained these documents so
7:54
that's the breakdown of the 38 it goes across eight different Federal statutes but I'll give you the big picture on
8:00
them you've got um conspiracy to obstruct Justice which
8:06
is what we always thought this was going to be an obstruction case we talked about frequently in legal AF and this
8:11
was going to be a uh Espionage Act case we've been talking about that since day one both those counts are there both
8:18
those counts are shared um uh well the conspiracy count is
8:23
shared with Walt nauda he's a co-defendant in that one the um Espionage Act is right now just
8:30
against Donald Trump himself then you've got various counts that sound the same but arise under different
8:37
Federal statutes concealing documents a
8:42
conspiracy to conceal documents a scheme to conceal documents uh and then you
8:48
have the stuff related to false statement both the false so what are the false statements for Donald Trump it is
8:54
his efforts to allow uh because he misled his lawyers on purpose Corcoran
9:02
and we'll talk about Corcoran and Bob who's certified under penalty of perjury on June the second 2022 before the
9:10
execution of the search warrant that they had done a diligent search when Trump knew or should have known
9:16
that at least 30 boxes that he directed be taken out of the storage room
9:22
remained in his personal Residence at Mar-A-Lago therefore could not have been searched by uh Corcoran prior to his
9:29
meeting with the FBI Trump didn't want them searched they remained with Donald
9:34
Trump until after the search was completed that Trump allowing them to sign that knowing that they were meeting
9:41
with the government the next day that they needed to comply with the subpoena um that is him also participating in a
9:48
false statement and then you've got the false statements that Walt NADA has made independently and this is you know we
9:53
all speculated the best we could that Walt NADA was in deep trouble because not only do they have him on video and
10:00
that's reflected in the complaint by timestamp moving boxes in and out of the
10:07
um of the White House sorry of mar-a-lago's various locations and always ending up in the personal
10:13
residence section of Mar-A-Lago in the pine Hall which is some sort of hallway in front of the bedrooms in the offices
10:20
that Donald Trump resides in they are at Mar-A-Lago putting Trump right into the
10:25
jackpot he's reviewing the boxes that he's making Trump is making the personal
10:31
decision based on his own personal review about what does spoon feed back to the National Archive at the very
10:37
beginning of this process when only 15 boxes arrived even those had classified documents inside of them and then Trump
10:44
coach his lawyers Corcoran and Halligan we'll talk about Lindsey Halligan in a
10:50
minute to why don't we say that we isn't it better if we tell the government in
10:56
response to the subpoena that there aren't any documents wouldn't that be better and then using examples that he
11:01
thinks come out of the Hillary Clinton server era to to suggest to them their testimony to tamper with them and to and
11:09
to obstruct Justice wouldn't it be better if some of those documents just and then he made a plucking according to
11:15
Evan corcoran's notes which are referenced to the complaint he made a plucking motion just if they just kind
11:21
of disappeared when they were in your hotel room Mr Corcoran it wouldn't that be good or how about that I.T person for
11:28
Hillary Clinton that made a bunch of emails disappear that he didn't get in trouble he's telling that story because
11:34
he's trying to coach his lawyers into obstructing justice with him and Evan
11:39
Corcoran takes it all down in his notes if you're on trying to unlock the key of the complaint Ben and for our audience
11:46
I'll give you some of the names that are obvious attorney number one for Trump is obviously Corcoran who turned over 50
11:53
pages of notes an audio tape of his musings and testified to the grand jury attorney number two has to be Lindsay
12:00
Halligan because Lindsey Halligan was present during the search warrant and during some of the other uh document
12:07
attempted document collection by uh Corcoran and attorney number three has
12:12
to be Christina Bob because she's the one that signed that certification the other fascinating like bombshell there's
12:19
so many I mean you've done a million hot takes on them and I I could too that's in the complaint is that Christina Bob
12:25
without participating at all in the search of even the documents that Donald
12:30
Trump self-selected for Corcoran to look at she didn't even participate in that
12:36
he called Corcoran called her up told her to come over put a form in front of her and she's signed it having not
12:43
looked at the documents and didn't even know there was a subpoena or what was in The subpoena that was
12:48
gobsmacking to me and the other thing there was gobsmacking to me is based on the time stamp
12:55
um Evan Corcoran spent like 35 minutes looking at what was in the storage unit
13:01
in order to find or not find whatever Donald Trump had had placed there for
13:06
him you know this pla this this theater that was going on this Kabuki theater for Donald Trump he spent 35 minutes
13:13
I've been doing this a long time I've gone into a a room full of boxes that I've had a search for Discovery purposes
13:20
or or or because there was a subpoena outstanding and you can't even order your cup of coffee in 30 how do you
13:26
review that picture of documents that we've just put on the screen piled high to the ceiling and wide to the edge of
13:33
the room in 35 minutes but he did because that's what it said he came in and came out and have the timestamp for
13:38
that so you have you have all of that the other uh person that is you can kind of piece
13:44
together is the is is there's two instances that are referenced that we talked about on legal AF where
13:51
highly compartmented sense sensitive information including What's called the five eyes meaning only five of our
13:58
allies Canada Australia us and two others can look at New Zealand can look
14:04
at this material it's called five eyes material he was showing five eyes material Donald Trump at Bedminster
14:10
because he secreted documents and boxes through Walt now to got them to Bedminster on his plane and then was
14:17
showing them off to people including Taylor budowich who just testified earlier in
14:24
the week in Miami at the Grand Jury that's the guy who's member of the pack
14:29
that got shown at least one of those war maps or or uh or or War planning
14:35
documents that is another violation under the 38 other the you know the 1-31
14:40
counts of Espionage Act that is cited that is is ridiculous and then lastly
14:46
there's even a little I think a little warning not only to the
14:51
people who are like Walton outa around Trump who have not come forward to to
14:57
cooperate with the government they could be next in being indicted but you have a reference it has to be to Melania Trump
15:04
within the document now they could have left it out because it doesn't really it
15:09
doesn't really move the ball ahead in terms of the crimes that are being alleged but there is a reference we put
15:16
up up on the screen there's only one female member of his family that would
15:21
be responsible for moving from house to house and that's Melania it's not the
15:26
daughters it's not anybody else it's Melania and you can tell from the way this this is written and sort of not
15:33
English as a first language type language that she's telling Walt nouda there's no room on the plane to
15:39
Bedminster for all the boxes that Donald Trump wants to take with him to get them
15:44
away from Mar-A-Lago and the prying eyes of the FBI and the Department of Justice
15:49
that's Melania why is it in there because they're sending a shot across the bout of Donald Trump that says
15:55
nobody is safe we've got text messages we've got emails we've got video we've
16:01
got testimony we got it all and if you don't play ball with us and if you think
16:06
we're not serious we're putting your wife in there as well that's my takeaway from where we're at I want to do one
16:13
thing in Eileen Cannon because I have a different View and I just want to give people a little bit of
16:18
I know that this is an agitating issue that she got quote unquote assigned to this I'm not sure that's going to happen
16:26
on Tuesday and I'm not sure she's the permanent judge I'll tell you why first of all here time for the pope quarter
16:32
board first of all the chief judge of Miami is altanaga her Chief magistrate
16:38
is Torres Torres opened the unsealed the
16:43
indictment not Bruce Reinhardt who's listed on the complaint on the on the
16:48
indictment as being the Magistrate Judge you see up top right it says Reinhardt but Reinhardt it sits in West Palm Beach
16:54
and he did not unseal Torres unsealed the clerk stamp on the top right corner
17:01
is the clerk Madam Clerk of the Miami court so yes I understand that there was
17:07
a grand jury that may have been West Palm Beach based that ended up in Miami for coveted reasons but all signs so far
17:13
point to Miami and then finally Canon's magistrate when she sits in Miami because these judges sort of run the
17:20
circuit they run the southern district from Fort Pierce down to Miami is not Torres her magistrate when she's in
17:27
Miami is otatso Reyes and so far that person's not involved so I am not yet on
17:34
board with all the reporting that it's definitely Eileen Cannon because her name is listed at the top we're going to
17:40
see on Tuesday yes there's a random wheel selection in in the southern district
17:46
um so people are like how could it be there's 15 and plus senior judges how could that possibly be I'm not sure it
17:52
is and then the chief judge is permitted under the local administrative orders of
17:57
the southern district to change the trial judge if she so fits if she's if
18:03
she sees fit so Alta Naga can change her out by Tuesday or thereafter and if the
18:08
Department of Justice doesn't like Canon and it really is Canon on Tuesday they file either Canon recuses herself which
18:15
she is required to do if she believes there's an appearance of impropriety or bias based on her prior rulings When
18:22
Donald Trump ran to her courtroom to get uh to stop the Mar-A-Lago investigation in its tracks and their 11th circuits
18:29
slapping her back I think she recuses if she doesn't recuse they can file a motion It ultimately goes up to the 11th
18:36
circuit and the 11th circuit decides which judge presides over this case having said all that I don't think at
18:41
the end of the day Eileen Cannon is going to be the presiding judge for the trial of Donald Trump I have my own
18:47
thoughts that I want to share about Eileen Canon which is similar but
18:52
um slightly different but I think it will still be very reassuring to all of
18:58
our viewers out there that I'm ultimately not worried about that assignment I also want to talk about
19:04
some of my views within the indictment but I really want to get your
19:10
perspective Karen Friedman agnifolo you were the former number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's office as
19:17
a former prosecutor you've prepared indictments at the state level but you
19:23
know the process you've worked with special counsel Jack Smith before from the very outset when special counsel
19:30
Jack Smith was announced as the special counsel from the very very very first
19:36
moment you were here on the Mindless touch Network I remember that day in November very vividly because a lot of
19:43
the public had no clue who this guy was a lot of the large media networks were
19:49
basically trashing this guy and you came on and you said I've worked with special
19:54
counsel Jack Smith he is one of the most diligent prosecutors there is and if he
20:00
is getting on this case then this is very very serious and Karen you were
20:05
right I want to get your thoughts on this indictment but first let's take a quick break your pet's a member of the
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AF that's athleticgreens.com legal AF check it out welcome back we are live here on legal
23:07
AF a historic Edition Donald Trump indicted by a grand jury in the southern
23:14
district of Florida uh in the first segment we heard Michael popock's take
23:19
on the uh criminal indictment and now I want to hear from Karen Friedman agnifolo former prosecutor number two at
23:28
the Manhattan District Attorney's Office you've prepared very very serious indictments you've been in the room
23:34
working with top prosecutors prepared documents just like this in fact you've
23:40
worked before with special counsel Jack Smith before he was a special counsel back when he was a prosecutor in the
23:48
office where you work so Karen Friedman agnifolo your thoughts yeah so
23:54
so indictment I want to just talk about some overall observations so first of
23:59
all this is what's called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment which is different than a Bare Bones indictment which is the other type of
24:06
indictment which the more usual kind of indictment if you recall Alvin Bragg when he brought his case against Donald
24:12
Trump uh that was a Bare Bones indictment that just lists the legal language on or about this date at this
24:19
location the defendant committed the crime of falsifying a business record and they really Bare Bones indictments
24:26
are what they typically look like it's just to inform you of the charges but there is a a tool that prosecutors use
24:32
sometimes which is called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment and that's usually when the charge is either
24:39
conspiracy which there are conspiracy charges in this indictment or if there's a RICO or racketeering charge which is
24:47
the type of indictment that we know funny Willis is considering bringing down in Fulton County Georgia so I would
24:54
expect that there would would be a speaking indictment there and a speaking indictment all it is is a story you're
25:01
telling the story of the crime and of the defendants and of the what's
25:07
happening there and this story that uh that Jack Smith told you can tell it was
25:14
written so that anyone can understand it so that the American public can
25:19
understand it a court can understand it and a defendant can understand it and it's it's what's required in a
25:26
conspiracy uh indictment you have to spell out the conspiracy and the
25:31
agreement and all of that but but Jack Smith did this in a way so that there was a coherent story that anyone could
25:39
understand and that's because this is such a historic indictment you know indicting the former president of the
25:46
United States for for violating the laws he sort of uphold to indict a former
25:53
president and charge him with obstructing the very agencies that he used to lead and to indict the former
25:59
commander-in-chief and charge him with endangering our national security by violating the Espionage Act I mean there
26:07
is no more serious accusation you can make and so this is such a significant
26:13
indictment because of what it is doing that in order to sell this indictment to
26:19
the American people Jack Smith had to write this in a way that really
26:25
Justified it it's more this indictment is more than just these are the charges and what he's charged with this
26:31
indictment is a story and it's a justification for why this indictment is so significant and why Trump's conduct
26:38
was was not at all like The Accidental possession of classified or national
26:45
security information the way um you know Hillary Clinton's server or the way Pence uh found some and Biden
26:53
found some those were accidental uh possessions all of them unintentional
26:58
and so what happened when they found them they discovered them they gave them back and I think that's significant
27:04
because that's another thing Jack Smith puts in his indictment is all the efforts that the Department of Justice
27:10
made to try and get the documents back had Donald Trump just said oh here I
27:16
didn't realize I had them here they are and give them back this indictment would never have occurred this we would never
27:23
have him be charged but this isn't just about possession this is about him
27:28
thinking that he's Above the Law and nothing no laws apply to him and he can
27:35
do whatever he wants you know the one thing that wasn't in the indictment that
27:40
struck me was motive their motive isn't required to prove these cases you know and motive is is
27:47
why why did someone do it and and we know that Jack Smith was looking into whether he had whether Trump had uh
27:54
business dealings in the countries where um where these the the
28:00
um documents pertained to and so that was not in here now that doesn't mean
28:06
that that doesn't exist it just means that Jack Smith wasn't able to uh to
28:12
prove that or to get that information in time for the indictment or maybe it
28:17
didn't happen at all so we don't know what the motive is and and you know I I was reading uh I was reading um an
28:24
interview that someone gave who knows Trump well and said he thought that he
28:31
kept this stuff as a trophy so he can you know he he thinks he won the election and you know he still thinks
28:38
he's president and so he still thinks he can keep these and use them to show people that he can do whatever he wants
28:43
but who knows motive wasn't in there and it doesn't have to be proven but that was the one thing that I noticed that
28:50
was missing that frankly could help with the court of public opinion and persuading people that this is a
28:57
righteous prosecution now Jack Smith when he brought this case
29:03
you know there was a lot of chatter that this was going to be in DC and the reason that's the case was
29:09
there were aspects of this crime that happened in Washington DC right there was he was president in in Washington
29:15
and these documents existed in Washington and they had to be taken from Washington to be brought to the various
29:20
locations whether it's Florida or the or the ones in in Bedminster that that are in the indictment and we know that there
29:27
was a grand jury in uh in Washington not because the justice department or
29:32
anybody leaked it necessarily but because Witnesses were called to testify and and defense attorneys you know a lot
29:39
of the witnesses had defense attorneys or attorneys and so people talk and there were reporters stationed outside
29:44
and would know who went in and and so you could tell that there was activity going on in the Washington grand jury
29:50
and then at some point towards the end and we know we were at the end of the presentation because of the types of
29:57
witnesses who were being called and the types of Cooperators you know they move
30:02
up the chain of command uh in order of of importance and you could tell who where they were based on the types of
30:09
witnesses that they were getting getting to and again we know that largely because attorneys we think leaked this
30:17
information not you know not the attorneys at the justice department but attorneys representing the witnesses who
30:23
went in to testify and so we knew we were at the end and that's what all the
30:28
experts were be could you know you can sort of read the tea leaves and say okay based on what's Happening Now we can
30:34
tell we're sort of near the end and turns out uh people were right because it's it's fairly
30:39
um it's not that complicated to understand when you put all the puzzle pieces together and so and so we knew we
30:46
were at the end and then all of a sudden everything stopped and at that point I
30:51
had surmised at least in my mind I thought well I think that's um that's when uh he's uh Jack Smith is talking to
30:57
Merrick Garland that's when he's presenting his recommendations and his prosecution memo and that was just a
31:02
guess but that's what I was thinking and at towards the end when uh on Wednesday
31:08
when we had legal AF um popoc and I were going back and forth because a lot of people were saying is this going to be
31:14
in DC or is this going to be in Florida don't forget at that point uh there was there was information that
31:20
this case uh was also being presented in Florida and one of the things we discussed and that I posited was I think
31:27
this whole thing is going to be in Florida and not in Washington for the following reasons
31:32
getting a trial if you're Jack Smith getting any trial going before the
31:37
presidential election is is what you want that is the goal you want this case to go to trial because we know Donald
31:44
Trump will never plead guilty that will never ever happen so you want a trial and the only chance you have at going to
31:51
trial because we know Donald Trump's number one trial strategy is what he does everywhere is to try to create
31:57
delay and how do you create delay in a federal criminal trial you make motions
32:03
you make legal arguments and you you make arguments that you think you want
32:09
the judge to rule on and then if the judge doesn't rule your way you know Trump what does he do he appeals it and
32:14
then what does he go from there he appeals it to the Supreme Court of the United States and so what does that do
32:19
all of that takes time because Donald Trump does not want a trial he doesn't want a trial in DC he doesn't want a
32:25
trial in Florida he doesn't want to trial anywhere because a trial will expose all of this evidence in excrucia
32:32
creating detail and it will risk him being a convicted felon the first in our
32:37
nation's history so his goal will be to delay and the number one problem with
32:42
bringing this case in Washington is something in the law called venue an event the venue is is where do you
32:49
bring the case where does it have to happen and the law says the Paul and the policy says it has to be where the
32:57
Essential Elements of the crime substantially happened and here that is Mar-A-Lago and you can see that now in
33:04
the indictment and so in order to take venue off the table as a legal argument
33:09
because that really is his number one legal argument that that I think has the most would have had the most legs or at
33:16
least the most appellate legs I think he would have ultimately lost but he could at least make the argument and so that
33:22
would have delayed the trial and so if I'm Jack Smith and Merrick Garland I think okay if I take this down to
33:28
Florida it takes a venue off the table and at least I have a chance of a trial and there's depending on how many judges
33:35
were in the mix of who could get this some people say 15 other people say
33:41
fewer because but I don't really know how how Florida works so I defer to popoc and he says uh it's likely there
33:47
were 15 judges in the mix if that's the case I'm thinking if I'm the prosecutor
33:52
there's a 1 in 15 chance it's Eileen Cannon we know she was a disaster so I'm going to take my chances because I want
33:58
to have a trial and of course lo and behold where are we we are in front of Eileen Cannon but I think that's why the
34:05
prosecutor Jack Smith here decided to take it down to Florida and you know look are there going to be
34:11
some Logistics with trying a former president of the United States yes I mean one of them is is assuming fawny
34:18
Willis also brings her case in July and August and Jack brings his January 6th case it's going to be so we know they're
34:25
gonna have to coordinate at least three criminal trials maybe four which one goes first is anybody's guess the
34:31
biggest logistical hurdle though I think in this case is the fact that this trial involves evidence of classified
34:39
documents so on the one hand these are our nation's most uh most top secret
34:45
classified documents and and you know Donald Trump Donald Trump had you know had uh over at
34:54
over 300 documents that had classified markings that we know of and over a
34:59
hundred were recovered during this execution of the search warrant he took
35:05
over 12 000 government documents total but so let's say there were over let's
35:11
say there's either 100 or 300 classified documents that were in play that Jack
35:16
Smith could have used in this indictment he chose 31 of them and one question we
35:22
will all have to ask ourselves is how did he choose those 31 counts and because that's a very careful careful
35:29
thing that prosecutors do when you have lots and lots and lots of evidence you know I remember when when we used to
35:36
when we used to charge uh crimes that had you know you'd recover you know thousands of images of child porn for
35:43
example you wouldn't necessarily you know each one could be its own count you wouldn't necessarily charge a thousand
35:50
counts first of all it bogs down the uh the jury it's a giant indictment and so
35:55
what you do is you carefully select a representative number and so uh he would
36:00
have done that here and the 31 counts that he would have chosen he would have carefully selected and the question is
36:06
why did he pick these documents and you know know one question I have to ask myself is perhaps he chose ones that
36:14
wouldn't endanger our national security If he if these come out in public right
36:22
um for example did he did he work with intelligence professionals and only use
36:27
those that could be used in open court and shown to the jury but that cuts both
36:33
ways because Trump will say see they're not National Security documents the jury sees them you see them the whole world
36:39
sees them right so kind of by their very nature you can't necessarily use the
36:46
most secret ones because they can't possibly be shown to everybody because
36:52
they would endanger our national security and so there or perhaps there's
36:57
another there's another question maybe dot maybe Jack Smith worked with the intelligence Professor professionals to
37:04
say okay if you can get Donald Trump to agree not to show these to the public in the jury you can use them until that
37:11
point but there is something called the classified information procedures act and
37:17
um and and the judge will have to utilize the procedures there they'll have a hearing they call it cepa they'll
37:23
have a sipa hearing to determine uh how and in what capacity these documents can
37:28
be used while still ensuring that Donald Trump receives a fair trial and it's
37:35
complicated though so Jack Smith would have chosen uh these these charges very very carefully when creating this
37:42
indictment and and that's how how these 31 documents got in there
37:50
another couple things just to put some more other thoughts out there to keep in mind
37:55
um to keep in mind about this is you know Jack Smith will have to when he tries this case really keep it simple
38:01
for the jury and it really is a simple case this isn't a complicated case and that's what any prosecutor does is you
38:08
you simplify it so that anyone can understand it and and you have to do it
38:13
in a way that again shows this isn't inadvertent this isn't okay you know Donald Trump is going to say well I can
38:20
declassify things with my mind you know that defense will easily be debunked uh
38:26
and like I said venues off the table which is good and you know Donald Trump has come out and said also the
38:32
presidential records act allows him to possess these documents I guess that's going to be one of his defenses well
38:38
anyone can read the presidential records act it's written in plain English not legalese and it very clearly it says the
38:45
opposite of what he's saying and so the jury will not you know will be sworn to follow the law
38:52
um but you know but Jack Smith has to get this case going and has to get this going quickly because once uh if it has
38:59
to happen before the general election um and hopefully before the the nominating process because otherwise
39:06
they'll have to press pause and it will not get tried if he is elected president
39:11
and of course if a republican wins uh they could pardon him or stop the prosecution
39:17
um these charges are very serious he faces over 400 years in prison if
39:23
convicted of all of them but of course you know people who have been charged with this type of of crime before it
39:29
didn't get anywhere near that but certainly I've never seen a case this serious of somebody who held the highest
39:36
office in the country and swore to uphold the law so so who knows what he will get and
39:43
um and there's just one other thing I want to talk about which is something you know uh I I watched um Ben's hot
39:50
Take On Eileen Cannon and how he's not worried if she is ultimately the judge
39:57
uh so let's talk a little bit about about what is going to happen if she's ultimately the judge and what are some
40:04
of the Mischief rulings she can do in this case so number one as Ben and
40:09
Michael hope both said I can't believe I called you Michael I always just call you popoc but his popock and Ben just
40:14
said it's not clear that she's going to ultimately end up with the case but
40:20
there's a couple of issues with this if she does end up with the case so number
40:25
one uh she could be um for the reasons Ben has talked about in his hot takes and I'm sure we'll
40:31
we'll talk about more here in detail uh there could be an issue that she has to be recused from the case because she has
40:38
already shown um that she's not competent to you know
40:43
to to have the case and I think that um you know I think that she has made a
40:50
couple of rulings in the prior it's a civil case that she had right the there
40:55
was the execution of a search warrant and then she inserted herself in a civil proceeding and appointed a self
41:00
um a special master and was reversed so I think there's a chance that you can bring a like like Ben has said you can
41:07
bring a uh a an action to recuse her from this case because she has shown
41:14
that she's uh biased and not competent to to hear this case so I think there's a good chance of that uh but also like
41:22
say she's not recused from this case and she does take this case you know there is some Mischief she can do and there
41:28
are ruling she first of all she can delay it you know so that it doesn't happen before uh before the election
41:35
which would be potentially fatal to this to this um prosecution
41:40
she could rule for example that the um you know if you were called Barrel Howe
41:46
ruled uh all the attorney-client conversations between
41:52
um between Evan Corcoran and Trump and others and Trump they fall under the crime fraud exception which is why the
41:59
doj got all of that evidence and that testimony well that doesn't that ruling
42:04
doesn't follow it's not the law of the case because that that had that case
42:09
this is a trial judge who can make trial rulings so she can reverse that if she
42:15
wanted now I don't think she will but she can she can create Mischief the
42:20
other possibility is she wants to redeem herself if she keeps this case and suddenly becomes a real judge and wants
42:26
to because she was raked through the coals by the 11th circuit which is the circuit that rules uh her and reversed
42:33
her and and essentially called for Lawless so maybe she wants to redeem herself who knows so there's lots of
42:39
possibilities with with Eileen Cannon but for anyone who says oh a judge just a referee and takes but just calls balls
42:47
and Strikes and you know this is this is um Smith's prosecution there isn't much she can do they're 100 wrong a trial
42:54
judge can make or break a case they can suppress evidence they can rule evidence in admissible important evidence or rule
43:01
other evidence admissible that shouldn't be and a lot of that is not appealable mid-trial you have to wait until appeal
43:07
and if there's an acquittal there's no appeal for Jack Smith so uh let's hope
43:13
and pray that it's not Eileen Cannon I don't trust her I think she's a terrible judge and I think she can harm this case
43:20
significantly and even possibly make it so it not go to trial so whatever anyone can do to
43:27
um to figure out how to get her off I think it'll be uh it'll be the best
43:33
thing for justice um I think uh I think at that at this
43:39
point um that's about all I I the comments I have to say I'm going to bring in my my
43:44
my co-hosts um but I think that's those are my overall observations and comments about
43:50
about this case about this indictment and about this prosecution
Trump INDICTMENT and WHAT’S NEXT
Legal AF MeidasTouch
Streamed live 22 hours ago Legal AF Podcast - Full Episodes
6/10/23
The top-rated legal and political podcast Legal AF is back for another hard-hitting look at the most consequential developments at the intersection of law and politics. On this special edition, all three Legal AF anchors, Ben Meiselas, Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo, join together to discuss the historic 37 count criminal federal indictment of Donald Trump for violations of the Espionage Act and for conspiracy to obstruct justice, among other things and what happens next including the arraignment next week, and so much more.
Transcript
0:00
foreign [Music] has been criminally indicted for his
0:06
willful retention of National Defense information false statements conspiracy
0:14
and obstruction of justice in federal court in the southern district of
0:20
Florida by a grand jury there in a powerful detailed speaking indictment
0:27
with 38 criminal counts special counsel Jack Smith lays out the case against
0:35
criminal defendant Donald Trump and his criminal code defendant and personal
0:41
aide Walt nauta the criminal indictment contains photographs of boxes with
0:48
highly classified information in bathrooms on the floor in auditoriums
0:55
all totally unsecured the indictment contains text messages from from Trump's
1:01
employees like Walton out to end others showing Donald Trump was directly
1:07
involved at every step in trying to deceive the FBI and the Department of
1:13
Justice by trying to keep these classified records the indictment also
1:19
includes underwrote testimony from Witnesses against Donald Trump and It
1:24
quotes audio recordings of Donald Trump showing classified documents to people
1:30
and bragging about it Donald Trump will be criminally arraigned in a Miami
1:35
Federal Courthouse this Tuesday and already Donald Trump and groups like The
1:42
Proud boys and other right-wing extremists are trying to incite violence
1:47
in front of the courthouse meanwhile Donald Trump's lawyers Jim trustee and
1:53
John Rowley who led his legal defense in connection with special counsel Jack
1:58
Smith's criminal investigation into Trump's theft of these government records have officially left the legal
2:06
team but get this the case against Donald Trump has been randomly assigned to
2:13
disgraced federal judge Eileen cannon from the southern district of Florida a
2:18
2020 Trump appointee who we all know because she was previously reprimanded
2:24
by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals not once but twice for improperly asserting
2:31
jurisdiction for Donald Trump over the department of Justice's search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago last year we will
2:39
break down all aspects of this criminal indictment and what happens next also
2:45
let's not forget that special counsel Jack Smith has another criminal investigation still taking place of
2:52
Donald Trump relating to the January 6th Insurrection and Donald Trump's attempt
2:58
to overthrow our government and destroy our democracy and Jack Smith is moving
3:03
closer to another criminal indictment in that matter on Friday the federal judge
3:10
presiding over that grand jury in Washington D.C partially unsealed his
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order from March when he compelled former vice president Mike Pence to
3:21
testify before the grand jurian when you read this order it also shows how very
3:28
very damaging the evidence is against Donald Trump in that matter a historic
3:34
episode of legal AF and no other way to do this when with both co-hosts Michael
3:40
popock and Karen Friedman agnifolo how you doing both popock how are you doing
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I'm doing I'm doing great Proud to be an attorney an American
3:51
a patriot at a part of the justice system in my own way and here with you
3:56
and Karen um to unpack it all we've done it in hot ticks kind of on the fly but this is our
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first opportunity together to analyze what's happened talk about things that are agitating our listeners
4:09
and followers hopefully give them some remedy some bomb for that and then talk about what's going to happen next with
4:15
Tuesday's arraignment hi Karen Karen how are you I'm good thanks for letting me join
4:21
I'm excited about it always not only is it an honor when you join but it is it
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adds extra Delight to these uh weekend legal AFS when the gang is all here together but let's dive right into it
4:36
first let's talk about what this indictment is when we learned about it
4:42
what the various accounts are 38 counts what the charges are let's just break
4:50
down Michael popock what is actually in this indictment I laid out in very broad
4:55
terms what's in there but let me pass it to you great I'll do that then and um
5:01
secondly I do want to address the elephant in the room no pun intended with the GOP Eileen Cannon being
5:08
assigned I have a different theory about what may happen on Tuesday and I will share it and analyze it here but I'll
5:14
tease that but let's get back to what you asked me um I'm going to give two two keys key e
5:19
k e y that people can use when they read disintitement we of course have posted it all over and we'll talk about it at
5:25
length today there are 37 counts against Donald Trump
5:30
and and including some with that he shares with Walt nauta his valet Butler
5:36
body man it depends on what era you grew up uh that was his role from uh from the
5:42
White House all the way forward forward to Mar-A-Lago and uh one count alone against Walt NADA for false statement
5:49
that gives us a total of 38. the easiest way to group it is of course the way the
5:54
government has grouped it 31 of those counts are for individual violations of
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the Espionage Act document by document by document that's why there's 31 of
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them so there's a list here that we're showing on the screen from the chart within the complaint that shows the 31
6:13
times at least based on current knowledge to the Department of Justice and the grand jury of times when the
6:20
Espionage Act Donald Trump using secreting not returning
6:27
transmitting National Defense information ndi which includes as a
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subset classified and top secret and the highest levels of National Security
6:39
documents that this country owns and possesses including nuclear
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the the fighting capacity of our adversaries and of our allies things
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that if any of those pieces of paper found their way out of the bathroom Ballroom storage room or any other
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semi-public area of Mar-A-Lago or Bedminster or the airplane or the SUV
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all or all the people's hands who touched it who aren't qualified or to
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have classified uh top secret information this country would be imperiled that is
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the gravaman the foundation of this complaint and think about how many people there's 150 people or more that
7:21
work at Mar-A-Lago there's another dozens and dozens that work at Bedminster we know what we know we know
7:28
what was returned forcibly by execution of search warrant and subpoena and a little bit that was
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dribbled back by Donald Trump to the National Archive back at the very beginning we don't need we don't even know what's missing we don't know there
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has to be a working hypothesis that there are documents that are no longer within the care custody and control of
7:48
even Donald Trump because of the way he carelessly maintained these documents so
7:54
that's the breakdown of the 38 it goes across eight different Federal statutes but I'll give you the big picture on
8:00
them you've got um conspiracy to obstruct Justice which
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is what we always thought this was going to be an obstruction case we talked about frequently in legal AF and this
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was going to be a uh Espionage Act case we've been talking about that since day one both those counts are there both
8:18
those counts are shared um uh well the conspiracy count is
8:23
shared with Walt nauda he's a co-defendant in that one the um Espionage Act is right now just
8:30
against Donald Trump himself then you've got various counts that sound the same but arise under different
8:37
Federal statutes concealing documents a
8:42
conspiracy to conceal documents a scheme to conceal documents uh and then you
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have the stuff related to false statement both the false so what are the false statements for Donald Trump it is
8:54
his efforts to allow uh because he misled his lawyers on purpose Corcoran
9:02
and we'll talk about Corcoran and Bob who's certified under penalty of perjury on June the second 2022 before the
9:10
execution of the search warrant that they had done a diligent search when Trump knew or should have known
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that at least 30 boxes that he directed be taken out of the storage room
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remained in his personal Residence at Mar-A-Lago therefore could not have been searched by uh Corcoran prior to his
9:29
meeting with the FBI Trump didn't want them searched they remained with Donald
9:34
Trump until after the search was completed that Trump allowing them to sign that knowing that they were meeting
9:41
with the government the next day that they needed to comply with the subpoena um that is him also participating in a
9:48
false statement and then you've got the false statements that Walt NADA has made independently and this is you know we
9:53
all speculated the best we could that Walt NADA was in deep trouble because not only do they have him on video and
10:00
that's reflected in the complaint by timestamp moving boxes in and out of the
10:07
um of the White House sorry of mar-a-lago's various locations and always ending up in the personal
10:13
residence section of Mar-A-Lago in the pine Hall which is some sort of hallway in front of the bedrooms in the offices
10:20
that Donald Trump resides in they are at Mar-A-Lago putting Trump right into the
10:25
jackpot he's reviewing the boxes that he's making Trump is making the personal
10:31
decision based on his own personal review about what does spoon feed back to the National Archive at the very
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beginning of this process when only 15 boxes arrived even those had classified documents inside of them and then Trump
10:44
coach his lawyers Corcoran and Halligan we'll talk about Lindsey Halligan in a
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minute to why don't we say that we isn't it better if we tell the government in
10:56
response to the subpoena that there aren't any documents wouldn't that be better and then using examples that he
11:01
thinks come out of the Hillary Clinton server era to to suggest to them their testimony to tamper with them and to and
11:09
to obstruct Justice wouldn't it be better if some of those documents just and then he made a plucking according to
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Evan corcoran's notes which are referenced to the complaint he made a plucking motion just if they just kind
11:21
of disappeared when they were in your hotel room Mr Corcoran it wouldn't that be good or how about that I.T person for
11:28
Hillary Clinton that made a bunch of emails disappear that he didn't get in trouble he's telling that story because
11:34
he's trying to coach his lawyers into obstructing justice with him and Evan
11:39
Corcoran takes it all down in his notes if you're on trying to unlock the key of the complaint Ben and for our audience
11:46
I'll give you some of the names that are obvious attorney number one for Trump is obviously Corcoran who turned over 50
11:53
pages of notes an audio tape of his musings and testified to the grand jury attorney number two has to be Lindsay
12:00
Halligan because Lindsey Halligan was present during the search warrant and during some of the other uh document
12:07
attempted document collection by uh Corcoran and attorney number three has
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to be Christina Bob because she's the one that signed that certification the other fascinating like bombshell there's
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so many I mean you've done a million hot takes on them and I I could too that's in the complaint is that Christina Bob
12:25
without participating at all in the search of even the documents that Donald
12:30
Trump self-selected for Corcoran to look at she didn't even participate in that
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he called Corcoran called her up told her to come over put a form in front of her and she's signed it having not
12:43
looked at the documents and didn't even know there was a subpoena or what was in The subpoena that was
12:48
gobsmacking to me and the other thing there was gobsmacking to me is based on the time stamp
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um Evan Corcoran spent like 35 minutes looking at what was in the storage unit
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in order to find or not find whatever Donald Trump had had placed there for
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him you know this pla this this theater that was going on this Kabuki theater for Donald Trump he spent 35 minutes
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I've been doing this a long time I've gone into a a room full of boxes that I've had a search for Discovery purposes
13:20
or or or because there was a subpoena outstanding and you can't even order your cup of coffee in 30 how do you
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review that picture of documents that we've just put on the screen piled high to the ceiling and wide to the edge of
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the room in 35 minutes but he did because that's what it said he came in and came out and have the timestamp for
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that so you have you have all of that the other uh person that is you can kind of piece
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together is the is is there's two instances that are referenced that we talked about on legal AF where
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highly compartmented sense sensitive information including What's called the five eyes meaning only five of our
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allies Canada Australia us and two others can look at New Zealand can look
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at this material it's called five eyes material he was showing five eyes material Donald Trump at Bedminster
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because he secreted documents and boxes through Walt now to got them to Bedminster on his plane and then was
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showing them off to people including Taylor budowich who just testified earlier in
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the week in Miami at the Grand Jury that's the guy who's member of the pack
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that got shown at least one of those war maps or or uh or or War planning
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documents that is another violation under the 38 other the you know the 1-31
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counts of Espionage Act that is cited that is is ridiculous and then lastly
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there's even a little I think a little warning not only to the
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people who are like Walton outa around Trump who have not come forward to to
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cooperate with the government they could be next in being indicted but you have a reference it has to be to Melania Trump
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within the document now they could have left it out because it doesn't really it
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doesn't really move the ball ahead in terms of the crimes that are being alleged but there is a reference we put
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up up on the screen there's only one female member of his family that would
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be responsible for moving from house to house and that's Melania it's not the
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daughters it's not anybody else it's Melania and you can tell from the way this this is written and sort of not
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English as a first language type language that she's telling Walt nouda there's no room on the plane to
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Bedminster for all the boxes that Donald Trump wants to take with him to get them
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away from Mar-A-Lago and the prying eyes of the FBI and the Department of Justice
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that's Melania why is it in there because they're sending a shot across the bout of Donald Trump that says
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nobody is safe we've got text messages we've got emails we've got video we've
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got testimony we got it all and if you don't play ball with us and if you think
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we're not serious we're putting your wife in there as well that's my takeaway from where we're at I want to do one
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thing in Eileen Cannon because I have a different View and I just want to give people a little bit of
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I know that this is an agitating issue that she got quote unquote assigned to this I'm not sure that's going to happen
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on Tuesday and I'm not sure she's the permanent judge I'll tell you why first of all here time for the pope quarter
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board first of all the chief judge of Miami is altanaga her Chief magistrate
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is Torres Torres opened the unsealed the
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indictment not Bruce Reinhardt who's listed on the complaint on the on the
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indictment as being the Magistrate Judge you see up top right it says Reinhardt but Reinhardt it sits in West Palm Beach
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and he did not unseal Torres unsealed the clerk stamp on the top right corner
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is the clerk Madam Clerk of the Miami court so yes I understand that there was
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a grand jury that may have been West Palm Beach based that ended up in Miami for coveted reasons but all signs so far
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point to Miami and then finally Canon's magistrate when she sits in Miami because these judges sort of run the
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circuit they run the southern district from Fort Pierce down to Miami is not Torres her magistrate when she's in
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Miami is otatso Reyes and so far that person's not involved so I am not yet on
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board with all the reporting that it's definitely Eileen Cannon because her name is listed at the top we're going to
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see on Tuesday yes there's a random wheel selection in in the southern district
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um so people are like how could it be there's 15 and plus senior judges how could that possibly be I'm not sure it
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is and then the chief judge is permitted under the local administrative orders of
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the southern district to change the trial judge if she so fits if she's if
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she sees fit so Alta Naga can change her out by Tuesday or thereafter and if the
18:08
Department of Justice doesn't like Canon and it really is Canon on Tuesday they file either Canon recuses herself which
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she is required to do if she believes there's an appearance of impropriety or bias based on her prior rulings When
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Donald Trump ran to her courtroom to get uh to stop the Mar-A-Lago investigation in its tracks and their 11th circuits
18:29
slapping her back I think she recuses if she doesn't recuse they can file a motion It ultimately goes up to the 11th
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circuit and the 11th circuit decides which judge presides over this case having said all that I don't think at
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the end of the day Eileen Cannon is going to be the presiding judge for the trial of Donald Trump I have my own
18:47
thoughts that I want to share about Eileen Canon which is similar but
18:52
um slightly different but I think it will still be very reassuring to all of
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our viewers out there that I'm ultimately not worried about that assignment I also want to talk about
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some of my views within the indictment but I really want to get your
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perspective Karen Friedman agnifolo you were the former number two at the Manhattan District Attorney's office as
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a former prosecutor you've prepared indictments at the state level but you
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know the process you've worked with special counsel Jack Smith before from the very outset when special counsel
19:30
Jack Smith was announced as the special counsel from the very very very first
19:36
moment you were here on the Mindless touch Network I remember that day in November very vividly because a lot of
19:43
the public had no clue who this guy was a lot of the large media networks were
19:49
basically trashing this guy and you came on and you said I've worked with special
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counsel Jack Smith he is one of the most diligent prosecutors there is and if he
20:00
is getting on this case then this is very very serious and Karen you were
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AF that's athleticgreens.com legal AF check it out welcome back we are live here on legal
23:07
AF a historic Edition Donald Trump indicted by a grand jury in the southern
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district of Florida uh in the first segment we heard Michael popock's take
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on the uh criminal indictment and now I want to hear from Karen Friedman agnifolo former prosecutor number two at
23:28
the Manhattan District Attorney's Office you've prepared very very serious indictments you've been in the room
23:34
working with top prosecutors prepared documents just like this in fact you've
23:40
worked before with special counsel Jack Smith before he was a special counsel back when he was a prosecutor in the
23:48
office where you work so Karen Friedman agnifolo your thoughts yeah so
23:54
so indictment I want to just talk about some overall observations so first of
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all this is what's called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment which is different than a Bare Bones indictment which is the other type of
24:06
indictment which the more usual kind of indictment if you recall Alvin Bragg when he brought his case against Donald
24:12
Trump uh that was a Bare Bones indictment that just lists the legal language on or about this date at this
24:19
location the defendant committed the crime of falsifying a business record and they really Bare Bones indictments
24:26
are what they typically look like it's just to inform you of the charges but there is a a tool that prosecutors use
24:32
sometimes which is called a speaking indictment or a talking indictment and that's usually when the charge is either
24:39
conspiracy which there are conspiracy charges in this indictment or if there's a RICO or racketeering charge which is
24:47
the type of indictment that we know funny Willis is considering bringing down in Fulton County Georgia so I would
24:54
expect that there would would be a speaking indictment there and a speaking indictment all it is is a story you're
25:01
telling the story of the crime and of the defendants and of the what's
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happening there and this story that uh that Jack Smith told you can tell it was
25:14
written so that anyone can understand it so that the American public can
25:19
understand it a court can understand it and a defendant can understand it and it's it's what's required in a
25:26
conspiracy uh indictment you have to spell out the conspiracy and the
25:31
agreement and all of that but but Jack Smith did this in a way so that there was a coherent story that anyone could
25:39
understand and that's because this is such a historic indictment you know indicting the former president of the
25:46
United States for for violating the laws he sort of uphold to indict a former
25:53
president and charge him with obstructing the very agencies that he used to lead and to indict the former
25:59
commander-in-chief and charge him with endangering our national security by violating the Espionage Act I mean there
26:07
is no more serious accusation you can make and so this is such a significant
26:13
indictment because of what it is doing that in order to sell this indictment to
26:19
the American people Jack Smith had to write this in a way that really
26:25
Justified it it's more this indictment is more than just these are the charges and what he's charged with this
26:31
indictment is a story and it's a justification for why this indictment is so significant and why Trump's conduct
26:38
was was not at all like The Accidental possession of classified or national
26:45
security information the way um you know Hillary Clinton's server or the way Pence uh found some and Biden
26:53
found some those were accidental uh possessions all of them unintentional
26:58
and so what happened when they found them they discovered them they gave them back and I think that's significant
27:04
because that's another thing Jack Smith puts in his indictment is all the efforts that the Department of Justice
27:10
made to try and get the documents back had Donald Trump just said oh here I
27:16
didn't realize I had them here they are and give them back this indictment would never have occurred this we would never
27:23
have him be charged but this isn't just about possession this is about him
27:28
thinking that he's Above the Law and nothing no laws apply to him and he can
27:35
do whatever he wants you know the one thing that wasn't in the indictment that
27:40
struck me was motive their motive isn't required to prove these cases you know and motive is is
27:47
why why did someone do it and and we know that Jack Smith was looking into whether he had whether Trump had uh
27:54
business dealings in the countries where um where these the the
28:00
um documents pertained to and so that was not in here now that doesn't mean
28:06
that that doesn't exist it just means that Jack Smith wasn't able to uh to
28:12
prove that or to get that information in time for the indictment or maybe it
28:17
didn't happen at all so we don't know what the motive is and and you know I I was reading uh I was reading um an
28:24
interview that someone gave who knows Trump well and said he thought that he
28:31
kept this stuff as a trophy so he can you know he he thinks he won the election and you know he still thinks
28:38
he's president and so he still thinks he can keep these and use them to show people that he can do whatever he wants
28:43
but who knows motive wasn't in there and it doesn't have to be proven but that was the one thing that I noticed that
28:50
was missing that frankly could help with the court of public opinion and persuading people that this is a
28:57
righteous prosecution now Jack Smith when he brought this case
29:03
you know there was a lot of chatter that this was going to be in DC and the reason that's the case was
29:09
there were aspects of this crime that happened in Washington DC right there was he was president in in Washington
29:15
and these documents existed in Washington and they had to be taken from Washington to be brought to the various
29:20
locations whether it's Florida or the or the ones in in Bedminster that that are in the indictment and we know that there
29:27
was a grand jury in uh in Washington not because the justice department or
29:32
anybody leaked it necessarily but because Witnesses were called to testify and and defense attorneys you know a lot
29:39
of the witnesses had defense attorneys or attorneys and so people talk and there were reporters stationed outside
29:44
and would know who went in and and so you could tell that there was activity going on in the Washington grand jury
29:50
and then at some point towards the end and we know we were at the end of the presentation because of the types of
29:57
witnesses who were being called and the types of Cooperators you know they move
30:02
up the chain of command uh in order of of importance and you could tell who where they were based on the types of
30:09
witnesses that they were getting getting to and again we know that largely because attorneys we think leaked this
30:17
information not you know not the attorneys at the justice department but attorneys representing the witnesses who
30:23
went in to testify and so we knew we were at the end and that's what all the
30:28
experts were be could you know you can sort of read the tea leaves and say okay based on what's Happening Now we can
30:34
tell we're sort of near the end and turns out uh people were right because it's it's fairly
30:39
um it's not that complicated to understand when you put all the puzzle pieces together and so and so we knew we
30:46
were at the end and then all of a sudden everything stopped and at that point I
30:51
had surmised at least in my mind I thought well I think that's um that's when uh he's uh Jack Smith is talking to
30:57
Merrick Garland that's when he's presenting his recommendations and his prosecution memo and that was just a
31:02
guess but that's what I was thinking and at towards the end when uh on Wednesday
31:08
when we had legal AF um popoc and I were going back and forth because a lot of people were saying is this going to be
31:14
in DC or is this going to be in Florida don't forget at that point uh there was there was information that
31:20
this case uh was also being presented in Florida and one of the things we discussed and that I posited was I think
31:27
this whole thing is going to be in Florida and not in Washington for the following reasons
31:32
getting a trial if you're Jack Smith getting any trial going before the
31:37
presidential election is is what you want that is the goal you want this case to go to trial because we know Donald
31:44
Trump will never plead guilty that will never ever happen so you want a trial and the only chance you have at going to
31:51
trial because we know Donald Trump's number one trial strategy is what he does everywhere is to try to create
31:57
delay and how do you create delay in a federal criminal trial you make motions
32:03
you make legal arguments and you you make arguments that you think you want
32:09
the judge to rule on and then if the judge doesn't rule your way you know Trump what does he do he appeals it and
32:14
then what does he go from there he appeals it to the Supreme Court of the United States and so what does that do
32:19
all of that takes time because Donald Trump does not want a trial he doesn't want a trial in DC he doesn't want a
32:25
trial in Florida he doesn't want to trial anywhere because a trial will expose all of this evidence in excrucia
32:32
creating detail and it will risk him being a convicted felon the first in our
32:37
nation's history so his goal will be to delay and the number one problem with
32:42
bringing this case in Washington is something in the law called venue an event the venue is is where do you
32:49
bring the case where does it have to happen and the law says the Paul and the policy says it has to be where the
32:57
Essential Elements of the crime substantially happened and here that is Mar-A-Lago and you can see that now in
33:04
the indictment and so in order to take venue off the table as a legal argument
33:09
because that really is his number one legal argument that that I think has the most would have had the most legs or at
33:16
least the most appellate legs I think he would have ultimately lost but he could at least make the argument and so that
33:22
would have delayed the trial and so if I'm Jack Smith and Merrick Garland I think okay if I take this down to
33:28
Florida it takes a venue off the table and at least I have a chance of a trial and there's depending on how many judges
33:35
were in the mix of who could get this some people say 15 other people say
33:41
fewer because but I don't really know how how Florida works so I defer to popoc and he says uh it's likely there
33:47
were 15 judges in the mix if that's the case I'm thinking if I'm the prosecutor
33:52
there's a 1 in 15 chance it's Eileen Cannon we know she was a disaster so I'm going to take my chances because I want
33:58
to have a trial and of course lo and behold where are we we are in front of Eileen Cannon but I think that's why the
34:05
prosecutor Jack Smith here decided to take it down to Florida and you know look are there going to be
34:11
some Logistics with trying a former president of the United States yes I mean one of them is is assuming fawny
34:18
Willis also brings her case in July and August and Jack brings his January 6th case it's going to be so we know they're
34:25
gonna have to coordinate at least three criminal trials maybe four which one goes first is anybody's guess the
34:31
biggest logistical hurdle though I think in this case is the fact that this trial involves evidence of classified
34:39
documents so on the one hand these are our nation's most uh most top secret
34:45
classified documents and and you know Donald Trump Donald Trump had you know had uh over at
34:54
over 300 documents that had classified markings that we know of and over a
34:59
hundred were recovered during this execution of the search warrant he took
35:05
over 12 000 government documents total but so let's say there were over let's
35:11
say there's either 100 or 300 classified documents that were in play that Jack
35:16
Smith could have used in this indictment he chose 31 of them and one question we
35:22
will all have to ask ourselves is how did he choose those 31 counts and because that's a very careful careful
35:29
thing that prosecutors do when you have lots and lots and lots of evidence you know I remember when when we used to
35:36
when we used to charge uh crimes that had you know you'd recover you know thousands of images of child porn for
35:43
example you wouldn't necessarily you know each one could be its own count you wouldn't necessarily charge a thousand
35:50
counts first of all it bogs down the uh the jury it's a giant indictment and so
35:55
what you do is you carefully select a representative number and so uh he would
36:00
have done that here and the 31 counts that he would have chosen he would have carefully selected and the question is
36:06
why did he pick these documents and you know know one question I have to ask myself is perhaps he chose ones that
36:14
wouldn't endanger our national security If he if these come out in public right
36:22
um for example did he did he work with intelligence professionals and only use
36:27
those that could be used in open court and shown to the jury but that cuts both
36:33
ways because Trump will say see they're not National Security documents the jury sees them you see them the whole world
36:39
sees them right so kind of by their very nature you can't necessarily use the
36:46
most secret ones because they can't possibly be shown to everybody because
36:52
they would endanger our national security and so there or perhaps there's
36:57
another there's another question maybe dot maybe Jack Smith worked with the intelligence Professor professionals to
37:04
say okay if you can get Donald Trump to agree not to show these to the public in the jury you can use them until that
37:11
point but there is something called the classified information procedures act and
37:17
um and and the judge will have to utilize the procedures there they'll have a hearing they call it cepa they'll
37:23
have a sipa hearing to determine uh how and in what capacity these documents can
37:28
be used while still ensuring that Donald Trump receives a fair trial and it's
37:35
complicated though so Jack Smith would have chosen uh these these charges very very carefully when creating this
37:42
indictment and and that's how how these 31 documents got in there
37:50
another couple things just to put some more other thoughts out there to keep in mind
37:55
um to keep in mind about this is you know Jack Smith will have to when he tries this case really keep it simple
38:01
for the jury and it really is a simple case this isn't a complicated case and that's what any prosecutor does is you
38:08
you simplify it so that anyone can understand it and and you have to do it
38:13
in a way that again shows this isn't inadvertent this isn't okay you know Donald Trump is going to say well I can
38:20
declassify things with my mind you know that defense will easily be debunked uh
38:26
and like I said venues off the table which is good and you know Donald Trump has come out and said also the
38:32
presidential records act allows him to possess these documents I guess that's going to be one of his defenses well
38:38
anyone can read the presidential records act it's written in plain English not legalese and it very clearly it says the
38:45
opposite of what he's saying and so the jury will not you know will be sworn to follow the law
38:52
um but you know but Jack Smith has to get this case going and has to get this going quickly because once uh if it has
38:59
to happen before the general election um and hopefully before the the nominating process because otherwise
39:06
they'll have to press pause and it will not get tried if he is elected president
39:11
and of course if a republican wins uh they could pardon him or stop the prosecution
39:17
um these charges are very serious he faces over 400 years in prison if
39:23
convicted of all of them but of course you know people who have been charged with this type of of crime before it
39:29
didn't get anywhere near that but certainly I've never seen a case this serious of somebody who held the highest
39:36
office in the country and swore to uphold the law so so who knows what he will get and
39:43
um and there's just one other thing I want to talk about which is something you know uh I I watched um Ben's hot
39:50
Take On Eileen Cannon and how he's not worried if she is ultimately the judge
39:57
uh so let's talk a little bit about about what is going to happen if she's ultimately the judge and what are some
40:04
of the Mischief rulings she can do in this case so number one as Ben and
40:09
Michael hope both said I can't believe I called you Michael I always just call you popoc but his popock and Ben just
40:14
said it's not clear that she's going to ultimately end up with the case but
40:20
there's a couple of issues with this if she does end up with the case so number
40:25
one uh she could be um for the reasons Ben has talked about in his hot takes and I'm sure we'll
40:31
we'll talk about more here in detail uh there could be an issue that she has to be recused from the case because she has
40:38
already shown um that she's not competent to you know
40:43
to to have the case and I think that um you know I think that she has made a
40:50
couple of rulings in the prior it's a civil case that she had right the there
40:55
was the execution of a search warrant and then she inserted herself in a civil proceeding and appointed a self
41:00
um a special master and was reversed so I think there's a chance that you can bring a like like Ben has said you can
41:07
bring a uh a an action to recuse her from this case because she has shown
41:14
that she's uh biased and not competent to to hear this case so I think there's a good chance of that uh but also like
41:22
say she's not recused from this case and she does take this case you know there is some Mischief she can do and there
41:28
are ruling she first of all she can delay it you know so that it doesn't happen before uh before the election
41:35
which would be potentially fatal to this to this um prosecution
41:40
she could rule for example that the um you know if you were called Barrel Howe
41:46
ruled uh all the attorney-client conversations between
41:52
um between Evan Corcoran and Trump and others and Trump they fall under the crime fraud exception which is why the
41:59
doj got all of that evidence and that testimony well that doesn't that ruling
42:04
doesn't follow it's not the law of the case because that that had that case
42:09
this is a trial judge who can make trial rulings so she can reverse that if she
42:15
wanted now I don't think she will but she can she can create Mischief the
42:20
other possibility is she wants to redeem herself if she keeps this case and suddenly becomes a real judge and wants
42:26
to because she was raked through the coals by the 11th circuit which is the circuit that rules uh her and reversed
42:33
her and and essentially called for Lawless so maybe she wants to redeem herself who knows so there's lots of
42:39
possibilities with with Eileen Cannon but for anyone who says oh a judge just a referee and takes but just calls balls
42:47
and Strikes and you know this is this is um Smith's prosecution there isn't much she can do they're 100 wrong a trial
42:54
judge can make or break a case they can suppress evidence they can rule evidence in admissible important evidence or rule
43:01
other evidence admissible that shouldn't be and a lot of that is not appealable mid-trial you have to wait until appeal
43:07
and if there's an acquittal there's no appeal for Jack Smith so uh let's hope
43:13
and pray that it's not Eileen Cannon I don't trust her I think she's a terrible judge and I think she can harm this case
43:20
significantly and even possibly make it so it not go to trial so whatever anyone can do to
43:27
um to figure out how to get her off I think it'll be uh it'll be the best
43:33
thing for justice um I think uh I think at that at this
43:39
point um that's about all I I the comments I have to say I'm going to bring in my my
43:44
my co-hosts um but I think that's those are my overall observations and comments about
43:50
about this case about this indictment and about this prosecution
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:01 pm
Part 2 of 2
[Ben Meiselas] well I think the analysis both from you Michael
43:58
popock from you Karen Friedman agnifolo is incredible um one of the cases that I think the
44:05
prosecutors are going to lean on in trying to get Eileen Cannon recused is a
44:11
2006 case called U.S versus Martin and I want to talk about it because it's
44:17
binding 11th circuit precedent on the issue of recusal or reassignment of a
44:23
judge where a judge has made multiple rulings in the past that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has overruled
44:30
so it seems to be directly on point but I also want to touch upon sipa which you
44:35
men because I think we're going to be hearing a lot about sifa this is a case involving the theft of classified
44:42
information top secret information as you mentioned Karen it stands for the classified information procedures act
44:50
we're going to be hearing a lot about that and I think in particular uh section 6A and section 6C which
44:59
basically deal with the hearing regarding classified information and whether or not stipulated facts could be
45:08
substituted in place of actually showing a jury classified information while
45:14
preserving the due process rights of uh criminal defendants in the case there is
45:21
a whole procedure for how the different parties petition to have a document be
45:27
determined as classified information and again this is where if judge Eileen Cannon is conducting the initial review
45:34
there could be some Mischief done there but sipa also has a process where
45:40
petitions are made to the Circuit Court given the unique nature of classified
45:45
information but in theory what the substitution does so that jury is and
45:52
the public are not actually exposed to the highly classified information they
45:57
get a stipulated set of facts or there's some other way to convey the exact same information about what the documents are
46:04
so for example when we go to the 31 counts on page 28 of the indictment and
46:12
they talk about these records at page 2829 they go you know documents relating to military records of an adversary
46:19
military records of an ally nuclear records that description would be
46:24
similar to what a substituted stipulated set of facts can be so everybody will
46:30
start introducing that term sipa the classified information's uh procedures
46:35
act and I want want to give my own view about Eileen Cannon and I want to go
46:40
over a little bit of additional facts that are in that speaking indictment
46:45
that was just unsealed that and more after this quick break let's take a quick break to talk about our next
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welcome back to Legal AF we are live I want to thank Karen Friedman agnifolo
50:16
for her analysis unfortunately Karen had to go so you just got me and popock here
50:24
um but I really always love uh to hear from Karen Friedman agniflo and by the way remember she was the first person I
50:32
remember that day so vividly last November when everyone was saying who's this Jack Smith guy Merrick Garland is
50:39
just trying to you know you know put this on someone else so that they could you know you know not actually charge
50:44
Donald Trump and Karen Friedman agnifola was the first voice that pushed back on
50:50
that and pushed back on it powerfully and then the large media Network started catching up to it and saying hey this
50:57
this Karen Friedman agnifilo is right and I was like yeah she ran the Manhattan District Attorney's office she was like the acting Manhattan district
51:03
attorney she was the number two of course she's right Karen Friedman agnifolo is absolutely the best where we
51:09
last left off before where we took that brief break I was talking about the case
51:14
law in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals that's the court of appeals the circuit court that uh supervises or oversees
51:23
Florida federal courts among other federal courts like those in Georgia and
51:28
I talked about The Binding precedent on reassignment and recusal here and it is
51:34
very much in favor of Eileen Cannon recusing herself whether she recuses
51:39
herself on her own she's previously has demonstrated a propensity for not doing
51:44
the right thing will special counsel Jack Smith on his own seek the recusal
51:50
or will the doj Seeker recusal motion or will the 11th circuit kind of Sue a sponte or a presiding judge basically
51:58
say no Eileen Cannon you are not on this case and uh and and demand a
52:04
reassignment and make the reassignment happen but here's what happened in this U.S versus Martin case on section 4
52:11
reassignment the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals reviews the record in that case where a district court judge continued
52:19
to make rulings in a in a sentencing matter that the 11th Circuit Court of
52:24
Appeals continued to overrule not once but twice for the 11th Circuit Court of Appeal said you're not following the
52:30
guidelines you're not following for whatever reason with respect to this specific defendant who by the way was
52:36
not the defendant to appointed you to the position but you keep making the
52:41
incorrect ruling and we're giving you the guidelines so finally in this section the 11th circuit set our settled
52:47
practice is to direct a specific Judge to reassign a case you know whereas here
52:53
the district court on multiple occasions has been overruled and reprimanded by
52:59
the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and let's not forget judge Eileen Cannon was not just overruled once by the 11
53:06
circuit court bills there are two orders by the 11th Circuit Court of appeals stating that Eileen Cannon never had
53:13
jurisdiction in the first place that she intentionally interfered with the
53:19
Department of Justice's criminal investigation and by the way not in just any all matter in this matter in the
53:26
search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago by the Department of Justice at Mar-A-Lago back in August 8th of 2022. that's where
53:33
she improperly illegally unlawfully interfered with two 11th Circuit Court
53:39
of Appeal orders saying that she impermissibly and improperly interfered and didn't file and didn't follow 11th
53:45
circuit precedent I I think that the 11th circuit will not want her to be a
53:51
stain on that circuit court and as a result I think they will ultimately I think that she will be recused however
53:59
I do think while there is a ton of Mischief as Karen mentioned that a district court judge could bring I do
54:06
think that and again this is why I'm very very confident here um this indictment is so powerful and so
54:15
bulletproof you even had people like Jonathan Turley who is the right wing uh
54:21
kind of legal spokesperson for all things kind of Mega legal conspiracy
54:26
theories it's so unfortunate that that's what happened to Jonathan turley's career he's a con law professor at the
54:32
George Washington University where I went to undergrad not where I went to uh law school I went to the competing
54:38
school at Georgetown but um I I think that when even Jonathan Turley looks at this and goes wow this
54:46
is very very damaging and he did it on Fox that speaks volume so I want to go
54:51
into oh and by the way have you seen this New York Post cover as well Chamber
54:56
of Secrets um and it's showing the photographs from the indictment uh and these are the
55:04
boxes that are in the bathroom right by the shower uh in Mar-A-Lago and by the
55:10
way you know you have a lot of right wing you know disinformation uh sources
55:15
all basically saying looks like the FBI did it again is it the FBI is taking
55:20
these photographs and making a messy no though if you just read the lawsuit if
55:27
you just read like we have the photo up now for those who are listening and audio and obviously for all of our uh
55:32
all of our YouTube Watchers you can actually see this but this is Walt nauta
55:38
texting another Donald Trump employee so Trump employee who's been indicted now to texting Trump employee too saying I
55:46
opened the door and found this it's Trump's employees photos isn't a doj photo and then for all of the people who
55:53
say oh um you know I don't see any classified information just read the indictment
56:00
like that's the thing with these right-wing people you know they lie and
56:05
they don't show their viewers the actual text because if you read this the next
56:10
sentence says nauta also attached two photographs he took of the spell Trump
56:15
employee two replied oh oh oh no and I'm sorry POTUS had my phone one of the
56:23
photographs now detected to Trump employee to is depicted below with the visible classified information
56:30
redacted Trump's unlawful retention of this document is charged in count eight
56:35
of this indictment so it is redacted that is why you can't see it in the photo but if you look on the uh kind of
56:43
the the the the right of the box where the documents are flowing out of you can
56:49
see the cover page with the classified border and it is redacted they're not
56:54
referring to the newspapers the issue is is that the classified information is being hidden within the newspaper
57:00
clippings and the classified information page is redacted and if you just read the document it says that that's why
57:07
it's important that we read this document let's let's just read some portions of this document okay let's go
57:14
to paragraph uh three of this which I think is one of the most powerful of the
57:21
paragraphs which says the classified documents Trump stored in his boxes included information regarding defensive
57:28
weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries United States nuclear poke programs potential
57:35
vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack and plans for possible retaliation in
57:43
response to a foreign attack the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put out risk
57:51
the National Security of the United States Foreign Relations the safety of the United States military and human
57:57
sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection
58:02
methods and then if you go to page 28 and 29 of this indictment on the 31
58:08
counts for the willful retention of the records page 28 and 29 like they list
58:14
what is in paragraph three like that's why you got to read these things and you got to follow you got to follow them so
58:21
here's an example uh count number three for willful retention of national uh
58:26
information National Defense information and it gives the classification top
58:32
secret sensitive information no foreign meaning it can't even be shown to any
58:37
foreign governments it's so top secret even among their intelligence communities undated document concerning
58:43
military capabilities of a foreign country on the United States with handwritten annotations in black marker
58:50
okay that's Donald Trump and black mark are doing it as you go to count five document dated June 2020 concerning the
58:57
nuclear capabilities of a foreign of a foreign country uh count six document
59:03
dated June 4th 2020 concerning White House intelligence briefings relating to
59:08
various foreign countries so on and so forth with all of the counts they're all like that going to paragraph 6A and 6 B
59:17
of the complaint um in July 2021 at Trump National Golf
59:22
Club in Bedminster New Jersey during an audio recorded meeting with the writer a publisher and two members of his staff
59:29
none of whom possessed the security clearance Trump showed and described a plan of attack that Trump said was
59:35
prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official Trump told the individuals that the plan
59:40
was highly confidential and secret Trump also said as president I could have Declassified it and now I can't you know
59:47
but this is still a secret and then 6B in August or September 2021 at the
59:53
Bedminster Club Trump showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security
59:59
clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the
1:00:04
representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get
1:00:11
uh too close and then if we then go uh kind of deeper into the complaint where
1:00:18
we actually see from 6A and from 6B let's turn to page
1:00:26
22 and 23 for a second these are messages text messages as well from Walt
1:00:33
now to members of Donald Trump's family and on page 22 and on page 23 as popoc
1:00:42
described earlier these are Communications with it seems to be Melania where she's saying Donald Trump
1:00:48
wants very specific documents polled Donald Trump wants to uh you know bring
1:00:54
certain ones with him but not the full boxes and so again you have very detailed factual allegations here here's
1:01:01
the actual uh a message on May 30th 2022 at 12 33 PM a trump family member texted
1:01:07
now to good afternoon Walt happy Memorial Day I saw you put boxes to POTUS room just FYI and I will tell him
1:01:14
as well not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the plane we will not have room for them uh plane will be full
1:01:22
with luggage thank you and so again they're talking about Donald Trump taking very specific documents and this
1:01:28
was right before June 3rd of 2022 where the Department of Justice showed up at
1:01:33
Mar-A-Lago to obtain all of the classified records in response to in
1:01:39
response to The subpoena finally I just want to show you from that allegation
1:01:44
that we had just mentioned 6A and 6B turn to page 15 and 16 uh for a second
1:01:52
and when you look at 15 it has the entire audio recording of Donald Trump bragging about this classified
1:01:58
information I mean just just look at these at this this dangerous idiocracy here Trump goes well with uh talking
1:02:06
about a senior military official who we believe to be General milley chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he goes well
1:02:12
with the senior military official let me see that I'll show you an example he said that I wanted to attack country
1:02:19
a and we believe country a to be Iran isn't it amazing I have a big pile of
1:02:24
papers this thing just came up look this was him they presented me this this is
1:02:29
off the Record but they presented me with this this was him this was the defense department and him and then some
1:02:36
random writer who's like ghost writing a book for Mark Meadows who Donald Trump is showing this classified information
1:02:43
about a plan of attack on Iran goes wow and then Donald Trump goes we looked at
1:02:49
some this was him this wasn't done by me this was him all sorts of stuff pages long look Donald Trump is showing him
1:02:56
here the classified information and a staffer goes and Trump goes wait a
1:03:01
minute let's see here and then the staffer like starts laughing and Trump goes I just found this isn't that
1:03:08
amazing this totally wins my case you know and the staffer who has to be like a yes person with him goes and Trump
1:03:16
goes except it is like highly confidential and then the staffer goes yeah and starts laughing and Trump goes
1:03:23
secret this is secret information look at this you attack and and by the way
1:03:28
isn't this incredible and then the staffer goes yeah and the Trump goes I was just thinking because we were
1:03:34
talking about it and you know he said he wanted to attack Iran and what staffer you did Trump this was done by the
1:03:41
military and given to me uh I think we can probably write staffer I don't know we'll have to see yeah we'll have to try
1:03:47
to then Trump goes declassify it and staffer goes figure it out yeah then Trump goes see as president I could have
1:03:55
Declassified it and the staffer goes yeah Trump now I can't you know but this
1:04:01
is still a secret the staffer yeah now we have a problem Trump isn't that
1:04:06
interesting this is life or death stuff folks this is life or death stuff you know how many
1:04:13
of our assets people in our military people who defend our country could have
1:04:18
been and may have been killed because of this and they're laughing at it and Trump's
1:04:24
showing it to just random people don't have security clearances and if he's just showing it to random people and
1:04:30
saying that kind of lunatic stuff imagine what he's doing on a daily basis
1:04:35
when it wasn't recorded like that horrific horrific horrific but I just wanted to drill down on Those portions
1:04:42
finally I just want to mention that Donald Trump's lawyers have left uh Jim
1:04:48
trustee that is and John Rowley who were the leaders of his uh defense in
1:04:54
connection with the investigation prior to the uh indictment being issued and
1:04:59
then unsealed Donald Trump put out a message that seemed to imply that he fired them and then I wrote on my
1:05:06
Twitter account I go how soon after do we find out that they resigned like literally within three minutes later
1:05:11
they stated that they tender their resignation and they claim the reason they are resigning is because special
1:05:19
counsel Jack Smith venued this he filed the case in the southern district of Florida and that's why they don't
1:05:26
practice there is what they said in their resignation which absolutely makes no sense to me because the lawyer who
1:05:32
Donald Trump now has leading the legal team Todd Blanche is a New York Wall
1:05:37
Street lawyer not a Miami lawyer not a Florida lawyer and Jim trustee previously was handling Donald Trump
1:05:45
cases in Florida in federal court in Florida as well as before the 11th
1:05:50
Circuit Court of Appeal so I don't buy that at all and then popoc finally what what what what do we look forward to
1:05:57
next week we have the arraignment can you just maybe briefly explain what what an arraignment is there's no there's not
1:06:03
going to be cameras in the federal court building there aren't cameras in federal courthouses I think they should be so
1:06:08
what what happens on Tuesday all right well let me start there and I'll back up a couple things Karen said a couple things that you said that I thought were
1:06:14
interesting that I can amplify we're gonna have an arraignment on Tuesday we're going to know who the initial judge is going to be the the initial
1:06:21
part of the arraignment is usually done by a by a Magistrate Judge even though it says Reinhardt who was the Magistrate
1:06:28
Judge that issued the search warrant I don't think it's going to be Reinhardt the speculation
1:06:34
and people that practice down there think it's going to be Chief Magistrate Judge Edwin Torres who unsealed the
1:06:41
indictment um and uh they'll be kind of the what we call you know first day orders let's
1:06:48
talk about Trial in this case Gentlemen let's talk ladies and Gentlemen let's talk about when when it can happen uh
1:06:54
motion practice related to that a song about pre-trial um conditions of release from arrest
1:07:01
because he is going to be Donald Trump will be arrested second time in two months indicted second time in two
1:07:08
months he has to go through the same process DNA fingerprinting uh pictures and all that it's it's less uh it's more
1:07:16
stringent than even what happened to him in the Manhattan side he'll do that with the federal officers come back through
1:07:23
the doors with his attorneys whoever they may be in addition to Todd Blanche where is Chris kais by the way Chris
1:07:30
kais is a Florida lawyer that he gave over five million dollars to through his political action committee because
1:07:35
supposedly he was a Florida lawyer that knew what he was doing he's nowhere to be found Lindsey Halligan is a insurance
1:07:42
defense lawyer a very young one at that in Fort Lauderdale even though she's been brought to various meetings there's
1:07:48
no way she's going to remain in the case so but we'll see who the lawyers are going to be on Tuesday who the Magistrate's going to be on Tuesday
1:07:54
ultimately who the judge if if this judge issue is not resolved by her recusing between now and Tuesday and and
1:08:02
we've been involved with cases Ben you and I've been involved with cases where we thought we had one judge federally and then they recused or disqualified
1:08:08
themselves for various reasons we had another judge or or two other judges we've been involved with the cases where a third judge got a sign within a week
1:08:15
so I think that could all get sorted out even before you can't bury the lead there of what the case was it was when
1:08:21
we sued Marjorie Taylor green and she ended up settling with us um
1:08:27
I mean like let's talk about that okay so I forgot that was the lawyer for
1:08:32
Midas Touch sued Marjorie Taylor the green for blocking us on Twitter Marjorie Taylor green settled with us
1:08:38
paid us ten thousand dollars um and then we took the ten thousand dollars and then we donated it to uh two
1:08:45
groups that uh were for uh supportive responsible gun ownership but we had
1:08:51
three results based on the signed settlement agreement is not allowed to block anybody ever
1:08:56
again on her Twitter account so anyway back to you but we had three judges within five days so I think it gets
1:09:02
sorted out on Tuesday matches when I when I when I hear the reporting for those that are in the room I won't be
1:09:08
able to get down to Miami for this one um I'll know Edwin Torres magistrate because Edwin Torres is not Eileen
1:09:15
Cannon's magistrate when she goes to Miami very rarely she is the least senior as we've talked about in the past
1:09:20
of the 15 judges in sorry seniority she is still the least senior because there hasn't been a new appointment by Biden
1:09:26
the southern district because there hasn't been an opening there hasn't been an expansion of those seats so that's going to tell us a lot she either gets
1:09:33
out chief judge altanaga takes her out under the discretion that the chief judge has under the local rules and
1:09:39
administrative orders or ultimately on motion by the Department of Justice on the case
1:09:45
law that you cited Ben the 11th circuit ultimately takes her out so I don't think we have to worry about her but if
1:09:51
if Jack Smith comes into the room and uh Jay Bratt who signed the certificate of
1:09:57
trial lawyer which we have here in the back in which he picked West Palm Beach by the way as the venue as the Court
1:10:05
division within the southern district said it's it's about a 21-day trial this
1:10:11
is part of the speedy trial that Jack Smith said in his press conference when he said we believe that people are
1:10:17
innocent until they're proven guilty so we got to get to trial quickly in order to do that they are going to go like
1:10:22
full steam ahead as Karen outlined to get this thing to trial whether it's cited in Miami or back in West Palm
1:10:28
Beach whoever it's going to be and if it's not Eileen Canada and it is in West Palm Beach it probably rotates to judge
1:10:34
Middlebrooks wouldn't that be a special delight for everybody judgmental Brooks who already sanctioned Donald Trump once
1:10:40
for civil filings that had no merit so um we'll see how that plays out on Tuesday will he be detained pre-trial
1:10:48
pending the trial no not based on the crimes even as egregious as they are
1:10:53
will they pick up his passport it'll be discussed will they limit his travel it'll be discussed he has to assure
1:11:01
everybody that he'll appear back in these courtrooms for the various proceedings almost all of them that are
1:11:07
done live and not by video so he'll have to appear for those and they'll set a potentially set an initial trial date or
1:11:15
come back for a hearing in 30 days for an initial trial date and set that as
1:11:20
well government wants to do what they say is a four-week trial maybe six weeks or eight weeks but
1:11:26
that's it and they want to do it in you know uh early 2024 I'm sure they've of
1:11:32
course Donald Trump's other concern is he's got another criminal trial in Mar in uh in May of 2024
1:11:39
in New York May March March of 2024. so you got all that going on in terms of
1:11:45
the accounts that we talked about I think it's important as Jay Bratt signed
1:11:52
in his own filing the penalty sheet God I never thought I'd see the day whether it be a penalty sheet a sign that Donald
1:11:58
Trump and federal court most of the Espionage Act claims are 10 years but
1:12:05
for each count uh with supervised release of three years and 250 000 in fines the
1:12:11
obstruction of justice conspiracy is 20 years withholding a document a record 20
1:12:16
years concealing a document 20 years concealing a document in a federal investigation 20 years scheme to conceal
1:12:24
that's five years and there's a false statement is five years you had it all up it's like you know 400 years in
1:12:30
prison if they were done not concurrently but uh that's the government's position in terms of the
1:12:36
things you hit all the highlights but I just want to give a couple that were interesting to me the the
1:12:43
doj's indictment through the grand jury says emphatically that Donald Trump
1:12:49
misled the Secret Service as well that the Secret Service didn't even know he had highly classified top secret
1:12:55
documents that's one I was shocked by the level of involvement personal
1:13:01
involvement by Donald Trump in the search for documents in with holding
1:13:07
documents for the National Archive the president the presidential records himself selecting the 15 boxes in the
1:13:14
dress rehearsal that he would try to serve up to the National Archive that he personally Donald Trump reviewed those
1:13:21
that He personally gave the commands and had boxes uh 80 of them removed from the storage
1:13:29
room and only uh 50 of them returned and Lord knows what happened within those
1:13:35
boxes those were based on Donald Trump's personal review of those documents the
1:13:40
the quality of the evidence that they have developed to be able to say that emphatically in the complaint was
1:13:47
mind-boggling I always suspected that he would be involved but that there would be levels of buffers between him and
1:13:52
others no he was doing the bring me two more boxes texting himself to Walt now
1:13:58
to give me another box I need I need a new lid for one of these boxes and then
1:14:03
you know get him to Bedminster so they were the shell game of moving them all out of the White House and then him him
1:14:12
Donald Trump picking which ones would go back to the National Archive holding back 70 or 80 other boxes including
1:14:19
classified but even screwing that up because they had classified documents in the initial return to the National
1:14:24
Archive which led to the doj J referral which led to the summons and then to the search warrant and then just the
1:14:30
brazenness in which he thought he'd be protected by attorney-client privilege to tell Evan Corcoran hey when you get
1:14:37
that envelope went back to your hotel room if kind of poof some of them disappeared you know that wouldn't be
1:14:44
bad uh like the Hillary Clinton I.T guy do that I mean the fact that he would
1:14:50
even say that out loud and thank God we've got judges Ben sitting in the District of Columbia Chief Judges like
1:14:56
Barrel Howell and now Jeb bosberg who who listened to this evidence early on
1:15:01
we didn't have privy to it and were able to decide that there was a crime or fraud perpetrated likely by the
1:15:09
president of the United States in in the way he dealt with his attorney and thank God Evan Corcoran he didn't know it at
1:15:16
the time but that his 50 pages of handwritten detailed notes about his interaction with Donald Trump and his
1:15:22
audio musings thank God they got turned over to the government and we we said when that first happened I think you
1:15:28
remember the the legal AF Ben we were like wow notes attorney notes I mean I'm
1:15:33
thinking well maybe some random scribblings 50 pages of detail this guy was like methodical the other thing that
1:15:39
was fascinating about it and really damning for Donald Trump for being the indictment and it may answer the question that that
1:15:46
Karen posed before she left which is what was the motive the motive apparently looks to me like these were
1:15:54
my papers these are mine he said to his staff these are mine mine mine mine he
1:16:03
told his lawyers Corcoran so you have what do you got to do for the subpoena response well I gotta look through all
1:16:09
of your documents uh Mr President I don't really want this is quote quoted in the indictment I don't really want
1:16:14
you looking in my boxes I don't want you really looking in my papers they're mine so this mind this possessiveness this
1:16:22
narcissism is how he is how he treated these documents his own staff joked and
1:16:29
this is in the indictment referencing the movie A Beautiful Mind about John Nash
1:16:34
the um the troubled um economist and if you people remember the scene in
1:16:40
the movie where he's lost his literally lost his mind and is living in a shack behind his house where he writes on the
1:16:47
Windows of his house all sorts of crazy formulas and he's and the house is just packed with with with you know documents
1:16:54
piling out of things so they joked that they called it the Beautiful Mind paper boxes which were just stuff that this
1:17:02
guy in larceny Trump threw into the boxes spilling out with classified a top
1:17:07
secret he wanted the Beautiful Mind boxes for his own that whether it was a
1:17:12
Memento he thought he was going back to the presidency he wanted to show it off transactionally or use it whatever
1:17:18
that's the motive because otherwise right doesn't make any sense like why is he just give it back what he doesn't
1:17:24
give it back because he he believes that he owns it and not the American people and sees nothing wrong and then finally
1:17:30
Ben I love that they hoisted him on his own patar Donald Trump and Jack Smith's the way they wrote this really elegant
1:17:36
efficient word economy every word every word every sentence Advance the cause
1:17:43
there is no wasted sentences in this indictment very very elegantly written but simply written in the narrative I
1:17:50
love that they said to him hey um you you yourself in 2016 and 2017 2018 made a lot of statements about
1:17:57
classified documents you made a lot of statements about how you would protect the national interests and how people
1:18:04
who leave office that continue to have access to classified documents would only you know who have a political
1:18:11
partisan role in their future life should never have access to these
1:18:16
classified documents that is a that is a a moment of inadvertent self
1:18:23
self-admission by Donald Trump because he just described himself leaving office having no reason to hold on to these
1:18:30
things he's a partisan running for office holding on a top secret documents really really well done everything we it
1:18:37
was about I I learned about 40 new things that we
1:18:42
couldn't even have speculated about the deep deep involvement personal involvement up to his elbows Donald
1:18:49
Trump himself in the document scandal yeah and I definitely think the motive
1:18:55
also and you touched on it was transactional was money you know the
1:19:00
examples that we have in this indictment um were Donald Trump just showing it
1:19:05
around like trophies and bragging it about it as a tool of trying to have
1:19:10
continued relevance based on being a malignant narcissist hey isn't this cool I I really am the winner here like not
1:19:17
only is it so dangerous like just a complete and utter idiocracy you know which is what we always call out here on
1:19:24
the Midas dead network but Donald Trump has said before he's like Nixon traded his documents for 18 million dollars so
1:19:30
clearly in the back of his mind he had views as a prior criminal who held the
1:19:36
office um and Donald Trump makes up these stories in his head and Donald Trump again what we have in the indictment are
1:19:42
two examples where it was recorded of of him bragging about these documents and
1:19:47
showing it those are exemplars those are not the totality of instances is When
1:19:53
Donald Trump did this they just it's on tape so how could a jury ever go well that didn't happen we here it is play
1:20:00
tape but if he did it in those two instances I think the point of those is think about every time he uh he he did
1:20:07
that uh before as well and and would continue to do it if he's not stopped
1:20:12
you mentioned uh the ruling by the federal judges in Washington DC
1:20:18
presiding over the grand jury finding that the crime fraud exception applied that Donald Trump was using his lawyers
1:20:25
for the commission of ongoing criminal conduct such that they couldn't assert
1:20:30
the attorney-client privilege to Shield documents and try to preserve their their class their confidentiality from
1:20:38
being turned over to the Department of Justice and a lot of those rulings were by federal judge Beryl Howell who used
1:20:44
to be the presiding judge uh in Washington D.C over uh the criminal
1:20:50
grand juries there um and now it's someone by the name of James boseberg who goes by Jeb boseberg who presides
1:20:56
over the grand juries as the presiding judge in Washington D.C District Court and he's made a number of very important
1:21:03
and favorable rulings in the other case that's still being investigated by
1:21:08
special counsel Jack Smith for Donald Trump's election interference for Donald
1:21:13
Trump's attempts to overthrow our democracy and we've got some insight
1:21:19
into the type of powerful evidence that has already been presented before first
1:21:25
judge Beryl Howell and now judge bowsberg in that case that investigation
1:21:30
is proceeding we expect the same way we were predicting the indictments on the
1:21:36
case involving Trump's theft of government records and obstruction of justice to land pretty much precisely we
1:21:42
were spot on I think when we if you go back and Rewind the episodes of when we said that one was coming I think we said
1:21:49
May or June you know potentially a little bit later but but definitely definitely summer probably early summer
1:21:54
we all think that the other indictment is going to happen sometime in September
1:21:59
October um maybe late August but we believe there's definitely another indictment
1:22:06
coming from special counsel Jack Smith and again that's from everything for the conduct on January 6 the day of the
1:22:12
Insurrection itself leading up to it wire fraud campaign Finance violations threatening state and local election
1:22:20
officials and uh the fake elector scheme all of the that criminal conduct by
1:22:26
Donald Trump but an order that was just unsealed by judge bosberg and it's very
1:22:32
rare that we get insight into what's going on in the grand jury process so
1:22:37
what judge boseberg did because Pence gave a media interview and there's just
1:22:43
been a lot publicly discussed about um former vice president Pence testifying before the grand jury
1:22:50
Trump's talked about it Pence has talked about it Trump's lawyers have talked about it and so the judge basically got
1:22:56
a motion from media uh interveners who said they want to get their hands on the
1:23:03
transcripts and everything relating to former vice president Pence's uh testimony before the grand jury and the
1:23:09
judge is like look grand jury proceedings are confidential they always are in secret however I can release
1:23:16
portions of the order compelling former vice president Pence to testify where
1:23:22
the court overruled the assertion by former vice president Pence that the
1:23:27
speech and debate clause privilege a privilege for senators and members of
1:23:33
the House of Representatives not to have to testify in other actions and Immunity from uh various types of cases when the
1:23:42
court overruled that largely the court found that the speech and debate clause in a limited sense applied to former
1:23:48
vice president pence in his ceremony role as the president of the Senate so
1:23:55
when he was in that capacity and leading up in his preparation for his role as
1:24:01
having these ceremonial duty of counting the electoral votes the court said for
1:24:07
that limited purpose I'll acknowledge the speech and debate clause applies but for everything else
1:24:13
and everything else is what special counsel Jack Smith really cared about all of Pence's observations of Donald
1:24:20
Trump committing crimes all of Pence Donald Trump threatening Pence all of
1:24:25
that is fair game and uh former vice president Pence can testify on that I
1:24:31
just want to show you just a few pages here where the judge seems to you know certainly hint at the evidence before
1:24:39
them that yes it's fair game because Donald Trump was committing crimes um so if you go to page 16 of uh
1:24:46
bozeberg's order that was just unsealed again this order comes from March of
1:24:52
this year but it's now first being unsealed on Friday last Friday and the
1:24:57
court basically says having set out the ground rules the court may now get down to business it assesses these specific
1:25:04
topics and those are redacted in order to provide guidance to the parties going forward and note several areas within
1:25:11
those categories that the privilege does or does not cover the bottom line is that the conversations exhorting pens to
1:25:19
reject electors on January 6 are not protected they fall under Brewster's
1:25:25
rule Brewster's just a the Brewster is a case involving a senator who is taking
1:25:30
bribes okay so that's what Brewster refers to they fall under Brewster's rule that Communications
1:25:37
urging a legislator to act unlawfully or Ultra viries are not Preparatory or at
1:25:44
most only incidentally so to a legislative function there is no dispute
1:25:50
in this case that Pence lack the authority to reject electoral votes then
1:25:55
there's a redaction indeed as Pence described in his book he never believed that the vice president's role on
1:26:00
January 6 was anything more than ceremonial so here the basis of the
1:26:06
Court's ruling is that where someone is being instructed to act unlawfully those
1:26:12
are not legislative in nature so they're analogizing Trump to this other case
1:26:17
where someone acted unlawfully and then finally uh the uh if you go to page 19
1:26:24
it goes and explains this privilege that Pence is a side is citing up and and how the court is
1:26:32
construing it applies in a way that is Broad enough to ensure the historic Independence of the legislative branch
1:26:39
but narrow enough to guard against the excess of those who would corrupt the
1:26:47
process by corrupting its members okay so in compelling former vice president
1:26:53
Pence to testify what the court is saying there is that Donald Trump was
1:27:00
corrupting the process by corrupting its members if Pence was trying to claim an
1:27:07
immunity like being the president of the Senate it's subtle but very very powerful and tells you that that case is
1:27:15
moving towards uh very very serious charge as well and I'll pass it to you popoc but if we saw 38 charges that were
1:27:24
brought in this case in the southern district of Florida for the willful retention of National Defense
1:27:30
information and obstruction of justice I've always said I thought you're going to see hundreds of counts in connection
1:27:36
with the January 6th case that's being investigated I think you will see hundreds 200 300 you know close
1:27:44
definitely I think close to 200 counts uh in that uh in that indictment popock
1:27:49
I think you just made a hot tick for the all the Pence things there I don't think that's it you're done salty cut it
1:27:55
you're ready to go but let me see what I can hit I want to make a statement as you and I
1:28:01
have been talking about things for over two years to the audience members globally and
1:28:06
locally what we are describing in sometimes excruciating but hopefully
1:28:12
entertaining detail is a justice system that works
1:28:17
I know that we talk about you know how many times is he going to get away with it Donald Trump how many times is he
1:28:24
going to be yes there'll be a suit but will he will he be forced by a jury to pay anything the answer to that has been
1:28:31
yes look at all the suits that he files 90 of them attacking the election will
1:28:37
maybe one of them will be successful they weren't um maybe he'll his appeals to even to
1:28:44
the Supreme Court that he has packed with Maga right wing six to three majority will give him a uh will give
1:28:52
him wind at a sale it doesn't the federal judges on the Circuit Court some of them are appointed by him maybe
1:28:59
they'll come to his rescue in response to something they haven't they won't and
1:29:05
they can't and so we talk about Eileen cannon at length for good reason and she
1:29:10
was a poor example of the federal Judiciary at a moment that was important to our nation's history but
1:29:17
for every for everything else that you and I have talked about in the last two years involving Donald Trump trump his
1:29:24
henchmen and his cronies the justice department especially the federal one but even state
1:29:30
works so and it's something to be proud of and I'm proud today I know there's a whole bunch of lawyers and lackeys and
1:29:37
and Hangar honors and bootlickers for Donald Trump like Alina Haba who got on television they're still doing it Carrie
1:29:43
Lake made a comment during a press rally that there's a second amendment solution to Merrick Garland and Jack Smith's
1:29:48
indictment of Donald Trump I mean that sounds like the Secret Service should start opening an investigation into
1:29:54
Kerry Lake's threats against the Department of Justice and they should um so the the right-wing Maga are coming
1:30:01
out with oh sad day sad day in America sad day for justice I'm I'm ashamed to be a lawyer it's it's the opposite this
1:30:09
is what the founding fathers wanted it is a major protection guardrail firewall
1:30:14
firewall for our democracy the conscience of our democracy and every time you and I tell tell this of what's
1:30:22
Happening whether it's Jeb Bose Barrel Howell the judges of the DC Circuit Court even the judges of the Supreme
1:30:28
Court in rejecting Donald Trump's and treaties to interfere in Justice we are
1:30:34
watching this in real time some people get frustrated and get fatigued and like I'm tired of hearing about it tell me
1:30:40
when he's in jail but this is the process the journey that we're on together this journey that we're on together is
1:30:47
our justice system it's like the old John Lennon line life is what is life is
1:30:53
what happens when you're making plans we are in this is the justice system it all
1:30:58
if it's in all of its glory and and and warts and all but at the end of the day
1:31:04
when adults are in the room wearing the black robes and you have uh lawyers like
1:31:10
some of the finest at the Department of Justice handling the case with Jack Smith good things come out of it and thank God
1:31:16
that they do this is our this is why the rest of the world should be proud of our system of justice because we just
1:31:23
indicted twice in two months a former president of the United States for the
1:31:28
first time in American history and although it may not mean something so those that are continuing to run for
1:31:33
office and to grift it means something to everyone else that cares about democracy and Justice and we are so
1:31:40
proud that all of the legal a efforts everybody watching this who has been
1:31:45
with us from day one or if you're just joining us now welcome um but none of this is possible you know
1:31:51
without you this community this pro-democracy community that speaks the
1:31:56
truth you know Michael Popa Karen Friedman agnifolo myself my brothers all of the other hosts on the Midas touch
1:32:01
Network we just got sick and tired of large media networks gaslighting us and not giving us the facts and not spending
1:32:08
the time to explain the justice system and not spending the time to go through what's actually stated in the complaint
1:32:16
and showing the photos and explaining the complexity and talking about issues that may be difficult or complex but we
1:32:24
ultimately know that that's why that's why you're here you want to learn about that we wanna we wanted the media to be
1:32:31
like that and so when we didn't see the media doing that we just said we're going to create it ourselves so we did it we built the Midas touch Network we
1:32:37
built out legal AF and all of the other shows on this network but most importantly what you built is what's
1:32:44
been most impressive to me and that's real Community a real unapologetically pro-democracy community and I know after
1:32:51
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[Music]
[Ben Meiselas] well I think the analysis both from you Michael
43:58
popock from you Karen Friedman agnifolo is incredible um one of the cases that I think the
44:05
prosecutors are going to lean on in trying to get Eileen Cannon recused is a
44:11
2006 case called U.S versus Martin and I want to talk about it because it's
44:17
binding 11th circuit precedent on the issue of recusal or reassignment of a
44:23
judge where a judge has made multiple rulings in the past that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has overruled
44:30
so it seems to be directly on point but I also want to touch upon sipa which you
44:35
men because I think we're going to be hearing a lot about sifa this is a case involving the theft of classified
44:42
information top secret information as you mentioned Karen it stands for the classified information procedures act
44:50
we're going to be hearing a lot about that and I think in particular uh section 6A and section 6C which
44:59
basically deal with the hearing regarding classified information and whether or not stipulated facts could be
45:08
substituted in place of actually showing a jury classified information while
45:14
preserving the due process rights of uh criminal defendants in the case there is
45:21
a whole procedure for how the different parties petition to have a document be
45:27
determined as classified information and again this is where if judge Eileen Cannon is conducting the initial review
45:34
there could be some Mischief done there but sipa also has a process where
45:40
petitions are made to the Circuit Court given the unique nature of classified
45:45
information but in theory what the substitution does so that jury is and
45:52
the public are not actually exposed to the highly classified information they
45:57
get a stipulated set of facts or there's some other way to convey the exact same information about what the documents are
46:04
so for example when we go to the 31 counts on page 28 of the indictment and
46:12
they talk about these records at page 2829 they go you know documents relating to military records of an adversary
46:19
military records of an ally nuclear records that description would be
46:24
similar to what a substituted stipulated set of facts can be so everybody will
46:30
start introducing that term sipa the classified information's uh procedures
46:35
act and I want want to give my own view about Eileen Cannon and I want to go
46:40
over a little bit of additional facts that are in that speaking indictment
46:45
that was just unsealed that and more after this quick break let's take a quick break to talk about our next
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welcome back to Legal AF we are live I want to thank Karen Friedman agnifolo
50:16
for her analysis unfortunately Karen had to go so you just got me and popock here
50:24
um but I really always love uh to hear from Karen Friedman agniflo and by the way remember she was the first person I
50:32
remember that day so vividly last November when everyone was saying who's this Jack Smith guy Merrick Garland is
50:39
just trying to you know you know put this on someone else so that they could you know you know not actually charge
50:44
Donald Trump and Karen Friedman agnifola was the first voice that pushed back on
50:50
that and pushed back on it powerfully and then the large media Network started catching up to it and saying hey this
50:57
this Karen Friedman agnifilo is right and I was like yeah she ran the Manhattan District Attorney's office she was like the acting Manhattan district
51:03
attorney she was the number two of course she's right Karen Friedman agnifolo is absolutely the best where we
51:09
last left off before where we took that brief break I was talking about the case
51:14
law in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals that's the court of appeals the circuit court that uh supervises or oversees
51:23
Florida federal courts among other federal courts like those in Georgia and
51:28
I talked about The Binding precedent on reassignment and recusal here and it is
51:34
very much in favor of Eileen Cannon recusing herself whether she recuses
51:39
herself on her own she's previously has demonstrated a propensity for not doing
51:44
the right thing will special counsel Jack Smith on his own seek the recusal
51:50
or will the doj Seeker recusal motion or will the 11th circuit kind of Sue a sponte or a presiding judge basically
51:58
say no Eileen Cannon you are not on this case and uh and and demand a
52:04
reassignment and make the reassignment happen but here's what happened in this U.S versus Martin case on section 4
52:11
reassignment the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals reviews the record in that case where a district court judge continued
52:19
to make rulings in a in a sentencing matter that the 11th Circuit Court of
52:24
Appeals continued to overrule not once but twice for the 11th Circuit Court of Appeal said you're not following the
52:30
guidelines you're not following for whatever reason with respect to this specific defendant who by the way was
52:36
not the defendant to appointed you to the position but you keep making the
52:41
incorrect ruling and we're giving you the guidelines so finally in this section the 11th circuit set our settled
52:47
practice is to direct a specific Judge to reassign a case you know whereas here
52:53
the district court on multiple occasions has been overruled and reprimanded by
52:59
the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and let's not forget judge Eileen Cannon was not just overruled once by the 11
53:06
circuit court bills there are two orders by the 11th Circuit Court of appeals stating that Eileen Cannon never had
53:13
jurisdiction in the first place that she intentionally interfered with the
53:19
Department of Justice's criminal investigation and by the way not in just any all matter in this matter in the
53:26
search warrant executed at Mar-A-Lago by the Department of Justice at Mar-A-Lago back in August 8th of 2022. that's where
53:33
she improperly illegally unlawfully interfered with two 11th Circuit Court
53:39
of Appeal orders saying that she impermissibly and improperly interfered and didn't file and didn't follow 11th
53:45
circuit precedent I I think that the 11th circuit will not want her to be a
53:51
stain on that circuit court and as a result I think they will ultimately I think that she will be recused however
53:59
I do think while there is a ton of Mischief as Karen mentioned that a district court judge could bring I do
54:06
think that and again this is why I'm very very confident here um this indictment is so powerful and so
54:15
bulletproof you even had people like Jonathan Turley who is the right wing uh
54:21
kind of legal spokesperson for all things kind of Mega legal conspiracy
54:26
theories it's so unfortunate that that's what happened to Jonathan turley's career he's a con law professor at the
54:32
George Washington University where I went to undergrad not where I went to uh law school I went to the competing
54:38
school at Georgetown but um I I think that when even Jonathan Turley looks at this and goes wow this
54:46
is very very damaging and he did it on Fox that speaks volume so I want to go
54:51
into oh and by the way have you seen this New York Post cover as well Chamber
54:56
of Secrets um and it's showing the photographs from the indictment uh and these are the
55:04
boxes that are in the bathroom right by the shower uh in Mar-A-Lago and by the
55:10
way you know you have a lot of right wing you know disinformation uh sources
55:15
all basically saying looks like the FBI did it again is it the FBI is taking
55:20
these photographs and making a messy no though if you just read the lawsuit if
55:27
you just read like we have the photo up now for those who are listening and audio and obviously for all of our uh
55:32
all of our YouTube Watchers you can actually see this but this is Walt nauta
55:38
texting another Donald Trump employee so Trump employee who's been indicted now to texting Trump employee too saying I
55:46
opened the door and found this it's Trump's employees photos isn't a doj photo and then for all of the people who
55:53
say oh um you know I don't see any classified information just read the indictment
56:00
like that's the thing with these right-wing people you know they lie and
56:05
they don't show their viewers the actual text because if you read this the next
56:10
sentence says nauta also attached two photographs he took of the spell Trump
56:15
employee two replied oh oh oh no and I'm sorry POTUS had my phone one of the
56:23
photographs now detected to Trump employee to is depicted below with the visible classified information
56:30
redacted Trump's unlawful retention of this document is charged in count eight
56:35
of this indictment so it is redacted that is why you can't see it in the photo but if you look on the uh kind of
56:43
the the the the right of the box where the documents are flowing out of you can
56:49
see the cover page with the classified border and it is redacted they're not
56:54
referring to the newspapers the issue is is that the classified information is being hidden within the newspaper
57:00
clippings and the classified information page is redacted and if you just read the document it says that that's why
57:07
it's important that we read this document let's let's just read some portions of this document okay let's go
57:14
to paragraph uh three of this which I think is one of the most powerful of the
57:21
paragraphs which says the classified documents Trump stored in his boxes included information regarding defensive
57:28
weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries United States nuclear poke programs potential
57:35
vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack and plans for possible retaliation in
57:43
response to a foreign attack the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could put out risk
57:51
the National Security of the United States Foreign Relations the safety of the United States military and human
57:57
sources and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection
58:02
methods and then if you go to page 28 and 29 of this indictment on the 31
58:08
counts for the willful retention of the records page 28 and 29 like they list
58:14
what is in paragraph three like that's why you got to read these things and you got to follow you got to follow them so
58:21
here's an example uh count number three for willful retention of national uh
58:26
information National Defense information and it gives the classification top
58:32
secret sensitive information no foreign meaning it can't even be shown to any
58:37
foreign governments it's so top secret even among their intelligence communities undated document concerning
58:43
military capabilities of a foreign country on the United States with handwritten annotations in black marker
58:50
okay that's Donald Trump and black mark are doing it as you go to count five document dated June 2020 concerning the
58:57
nuclear capabilities of a foreign of a foreign country uh count six document
59:03
dated June 4th 2020 concerning White House intelligence briefings relating to
59:08
various foreign countries so on and so forth with all of the counts they're all like that going to paragraph 6A and 6 B
59:17
of the complaint um in July 2021 at Trump National Golf
59:22
Club in Bedminster New Jersey during an audio recorded meeting with the writer a publisher and two members of his staff
59:29
none of whom possessed the security clearance Trump showed and described a plan of attack that Trump said was
59:35
prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official Trump told the individuals that the plan
59:40
was highly confidential and secret Trump also said as president I could have Declassified it and now I can't you know
59:47
but this is still a secret and then 6B in August or September 2021 at the
59:53
Bedminster Club Trump showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security
59:59
clearance a classified map related to a military operation and told the
1:00:04
representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get
1:00:11
uh too close and then if we then go uh kind of deeper into the complaint where
1:00:18
we actually see from 6A and from 6B let's turn to page
1:00:26
22 and 23 for a second these are messages text messages as well from Walt
1:00:33
now to members of Donald Trump's family and on page 22 and on page 23 as popoc
1:00:42
described earlier these are Communications with it seems to be Melania where she's saying Donald Trump
1:00:48
wants very specific documents polled Donald Trump wants to uh you know bring
1:00:54
certain ones with him but not the full boxes and so again you have very detailed factual allegations here here's
1:01:01
the actual uh a message on May 30th 2022 at 12 33 PM a trump family member texted
1:01:07
now to good afternoon Walt happy Memorial Day I saw you put boxes to POTUS room just FYI and I will tell him
1:01:14
as well not sure how many he wants to take on Friday on the plane we will not have room for them uh plane will be full
1:01:22
with luggage thank you and so again they're talking about Donald Trump taking very specific documents and this
1:01:28
was right before June 3rd of 2022 where the Department of Justice showed up at
1:01:33
Mar-A-Lago to obtain all of the classified records in response to in
1:01:39
response to The subpoena finally I just want to show you from that allegation
1:01:44
that we had just mentioned 6A and 6B turn to page 15 and 16 uh for a second
1:01:52
and when you look at 15 it has the entire audio recording of Donald Trump bragging about this classified
1:01:58
information I mean just just look at these at this this dangerous idiocracy here Trump goes well with uh talking
1:02:06
about a senior military official who we believe to be General milley chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he goes well
1:02:12
with the senior military official let me see that I'll show you an example he said that I wanted to attack country
1:02:19
a and we believe country a to be Iran isn't it amazing I have a big pile of
1:02:24
papers this thing just came up look this was him they presented me this this is
1:02:29
off the Record but they presented me with this this was him this was the defense department and him and then some
1:02:36
random writer who's like ghost writing a book for Mark Meadows who Donald Trump is showing this classified information
1:02:43
about a plan of attack on Iran goes wow and then Donald Trump goes we looked at
1:02:49
some this was him this wasn't done by me this was him all sorts of stuff pages long look Donald Trump is showing him
1:02:56
here the classified information and a staffer goes and Trump goes wait a
1:03:01
minute let's see here and then the staffer like starts laughing and Trump goes I just found this isn't that
1:03:08
amazing this totally wins my case you know and the staffer who has to be like a yes person with him goes and Trump
1:03:16
goes except it is like highly confidential and then the staffer goes yeah and starts laughing and Trump goes
1:03:23
secret this is secret information look at this you attack and and by the way
1:03:28
isn't this incredible and then the staffer goes yeah and the Trump goes I was just thinking because we were
1:03:34
talking about it and you know he said he wanted to attack Iran and what staffer you did Trump this was done by the
1:03:41
military and given to me uh I think we can probably write staffer I don't know we'll have to see yeah we'll have to try
1:03:47
to then Trump goes declassify it and staffer goes figure it out yeah then Trump goes see as president I could have
1:03:55
Declassified it and the staffer goes yeah Trump now I can't you know but this
1:04:01
is still a secret the staffer yeah now we have a problem Trump isn't that
1:04:06
interesting this is life or death stuff folks this is life or death stuff you know how many
1:04:13
of our assets people in our military people who defend our country could have
1:04:18
been and may have been killed because of this and they're laughing at it and Trump's
1:04:24
showing it to just random people don't have security clearances and if he's just showing it to random people and
1:04:30
saying that kind of lunatic stuff imagine what he's doing on a daily basis
1:04:35
when it wasn't recorded like that horrific horrific horrific but I just wanted to drill down on Those portions
1:04:42
finally I just want to mention that Donald Trump's lawyers have left uh Jim
1:04:48
trustee that is and John Rowley who were the leaders of his uh defense in
1:04:54
connection with the investigation prior to the uh indictment being issued and
1:04:59
then unsealed Donald Trump put out a message that seemed to imply that he fired them and then I wrote on my
1:05:06
Twitter account I go how soon after do we find out that they resigned like literally within three minutes later
1:05:11
they stated that they tender their resignation and they claim the reason they are resigning is because special
1:05:19
counsel Jack Smith venued this he filed the case in the southern district of Florida and that's why they don't
1:05:26
practice there is what they said in their resignation which absolutely makes no sense to me because the lawyer who
1:05:32
Donald Trump now has leading the legal team Todd Blanche is a New York Wall
1:05:37
Street lawyer not a Miami lawyer not a Florida lawyer and Jim trustee previously was handling Donald Trump
1:05:45
cases in Florida in federal court in Florida as well as before the 11th
1:05:50
Circuit Court of Appeal so I don't buy that at all and then popoc finally what what what what do we look forward to
1:05:57
next week we have the arraignment can you just maybe briefly explain what what an arraignment is there's no there's not
1:06:03
going to be cameras in the federal court building there aren't cameras in federal courthouses I think they should be so
1:06:08
what what happens on Tuesday all right well let me start there and I'll back up a couple things Karen said a couple things that you said that I thought were
1:06:14
interesting that I can amplify we're gonna have an arraignment on Tuesday we're going to know who the initial judge is going to be the the initial
1:06:21
part of the arraignment is usually done by a by a Magistrate Judge even though it says Reinhardt who was the Magistrate
1:06:28
Judge that issued the search warrant I don't think it's going to be Reinhardt the speculation
1:06:34
and people that practice down there think it's going to be Chief Magistrate Judge Edwin Torres who unsealed the
1:06:41
indictment um and uh they'll be kind of the what we call you know first day orders let's
1:06:48
talk about Trial in this case Gentlemen let's talk ladies and Gentlemen let's talk about when when it can happen uh
1:06:54
motion practice related to that a song about pre-trial um conditions of release from arrest
1:07:01
because he is going to be Donald Trump will be arrested second time in two months indicted second time in two
1:07:08
months he has to go through the same process DNA fingerprinting uh pictures and all that it's it's less uh it's more
1:07:16
stringent than even what happened to him in the Manhattan side he'll do that with the federal officers come back through
1:07:23
the doors with his attorneys whoever they may be in addition to Todd Blanche where is Chris kais by the way Chris
1:07:30
kais is a Florida lawyer that he gave over five million dollars to through his political action committee because
1:07:35
supposedly he was a Florida lawyer that knew what he was doing he's nowhere to be found Lindsey Halligan is a insurance
1:07:42
defense lawyer a very young one at that in Fort Lauderdale even though she's been brought to various meetings there's
1:07:48
no way she's going to remain in the case so but we'll see who the lawyers are going to be on Tuesday who the Magistrate's going to be on Tuesday
1:07:54
ultimately who the judge if if this judge issue is not resolved by her recusing between now and Tuesday and and
1:08:02
we've been involved with cases Ben you and I've been involved with cases where we thought we had one judge federally and then they recused or disqualified
1:08:08
themselves for various reasons we had another judge or or two other judges we've been involved with the cases where a third judge got a sign within a week
1:08:15
so I think that could all get sorted out even before you can't bury the lead there of what the case was it was when
1:08:21
we sued Marjorie Taylor green and she ended up settling with us um
1:08:27
I mean like let's talk about that okay so I forgot that was the lawyer for
1:08:32
Midas Touch sued Marjorie Taylor the green for blocking us on Twitter Marjorie Taylor green settled with us
1:08:38
paid us ten thousand dollars um and then we took the ten thousand dollars and then we donated it to uh two
1:08:45
groups that uh were for uh supportive responsible gun ownership but we had
1:08:51
three results based on the signed settlement agreement is not allowed to block anybody ever
1:08:56
again on her Twitter account so anyway back to you but we had three judges within five days so I think it gets
1:09:02
sorted out on Tuesday matches when I when I when I hear the reporting for those that are in the room I won't be
1:09:08
able to get down to Miami for this one um I'll know Edwin Torres magistrate because Edwin Torres is not Eileen
1:09:15
Cannon's magistrate when she goes to Miami very rarely she is the least senior as we've talked about in the past
1:09:20
of the 15 judges in sorry seniority she is still the least senior because there hasn't been a new appointment by Biden
1:09:26
the southern district because there hasn't been an opening there hasn't been an expansion of those seats so that's going to tell us a lot she either gets
1:09:33
out chief judge altanaga takes her out under the discretion that the chief judge has under the local rules and
1:09:39
administrative orders or ultimately on motion by the Department of Justice on the case
1:09:45
law that you cited Ben the 11th circuit ultimately takes her out so I don't think we have to worry about her but if
1:09:51
if Jack Smith comes into the room and uh Jay Bratt who signed the certificate of
1:09:57
trial lawyer which we have here in the back in which he picked West Palm Beach by the way as the venue as the Court
1:10:05
division within the southern district said it's it's about a 21-day trial this
1:10:11
is part of the speedy trial that Jack Smith said in his press conference when he said we believe that people are
1:10:17
innocent until they're proven guilty so we got to get to trial quickly in order to do that they are going to go like
1:10:22
full steam ahead as Karen outlined to get this thing to trial whether it's cited in Miami or back in West Palm
1:10:28
Beach whoever it's going to be and if it's not Eileen Canada and it is in West Palm Beach it probably rotates to judge
1:10:34
Middlebrooks wouldn't that be a special delight for everybody judgmental Brooks who already sanctioned Donald Trump once
1:10:40
for civil filings that had no merit so um we'll see how that plays out on Tuesday will he be detained pre-trial
1:10:48
pending the trial no not based on the crimes even as egregious as they are
1:10:53
will they pick up his passport it'll be discussed will they limit his travel it'll be discussed he has to assure
1:11:01
everybody that he'll appear back in these courtrooms for the various proceedings almost all of them that are
1:11:07
done live and not by video so he'll have to appear for those and they'll set a potentially set an initial trial date or
1:11:15
come back for a hearing in 30 days for an initial trial date and set that as
1:11:20
well government wants to do what they say is a four-week trial maybe six weeks or eight weeks but
1:11:26
that's it and they want to do it in you know uh early 2024 I'm sure they've of
1:11:32
course Donald Trump's other concern is he's got another criminal trial in Mar in uh in May of 2024
1:11:39
in New York May March March of 2024. so you got all that going on in terms of
1:11:45
the accounts that we talked about I think it's important as Jay Bratt signed
1:11:52
in his own filing the penalty sheet God I never thought I'd see the day whether it be a penalty sheet a sign that Donald
1:11:58
Trump and federal court most of the Espionage Act claims are 10 years but
1:12:05
for each count uh with supervised release of three years and 250 000 in fines the
1:12:11
obstruction of justice conspiracy is 20 years withholding a document a record 20
1:12:16
years concealing a document 20 years concealing a document in a federal investigation 20 years scheme to conceal
1:12:24
that's five years and there's a false statement is five years you had it all up it's like you know 400 years in
1:12:30
prison if they were done not concurrently but uh that's the government's position in terms of the
1:12:36
things you hit all the highlights but I just want to give a couple that were interesting to me the the
1:12:43
doj's indictment through the grand jury says emphatically that Donald Trump
1:12:49
misled the Secret Service as well that the Secret Service didn't even know he had highly classified top secret
1:12:55
documents that's one I was shocked by the level of involvement personal
1:13:01
involvement by Donald Trump in the search for documents in with holding
1:13:07
documents for the National Archive the president the presidential records himself selecting the 15 boxes in the
1:13:14
dress rehearsal that he would try to serve up to the National Archive that he personally Donald Trump reviewed those
1:13:21
that He personally gave the commands and had boxes uh 80 of them removed from the storage
1:13:29
room and only uh 50 of them returned and Lord knows what happened within those
1:13:35
boxes those were based on Donald Trump's personal review of those documents the
1:13:40
the quality of the evidence that they have developed to be able to say that emphatically in the complaint was
1:13:47
mind-boggling I always suspected that he would be involved but that there would be levels of buffers between him and
1:13:52
others no he was doing the bring me two more boxes texting himself to Walt now
1:13:58
to give me another box I need I need a new lid for one of these boxes and then
1:14:03
you know get him to Bedminster so they were the shell game of moving them all out of the White House and then him him
1:14:12
Donald Trump picking which ones would go back to the National Archive holding back 70 or 80 other boxes including
1:14:19
classified but even screwing that up because they had classified documents in the initial return to the National
1:14:24
Archive which led to the doj J referral which led to the summons and then to the search warrant and then just the
1:14:30
brazenness in which he thought he'd be protected by attorney-client privilege to tell Evan Corcoran hey when you get
1:14:37
that envelope went back to your hotel room if kind of poof some of them disappeared you know that wouldn't be
1:14:44
bad uh like the Hillary Clinton I.T guy do that I mean the fact that he would
1:14:50
even say that out loud and thank God we've got judges Ben sitting in the District of Columbia Chief Judges like
1:14:56
Barrel Howell and now Jeb bosberg who who listened to this evidence early on
1:15:01
we didn't have privy to it and were able to decide that there was a crime or fraud perpetrated likely by the
1:15:09
president of the United States in in the way he dealt with his attorney and thank God Evan Corcoran he didn't know it at
1:15:16
the time but that his 50 pages of handwritten detailed notes about his interaction with Donald Trump and his
1:15:22
audio musings thank God they got turned over to the government and we we said when that first happened I think you
1:15:28
remember the the legal AF Ben we were like wow notes attorney notes I mean I'm
1:15:33
thinking well maybe some random scribblings 50 pages of detail this guy was like methodical the other thing that
1:15:39
was fascinating about it and really damning for Donald Trump for being the indictment and it may answer the question that that
1:15:46
Karen posed before she left which is what was the motive the motive apparently looks to me like these were
1:15:54
my papers these are mine he said to his staff these are mine mine mine mine he
1:16:03
told his lawyers Corcoran so you have what do you got to do for the subpoena response well I gotta look through all
1:16:09
of your documents uh Mr President I don't really want this is quote quoted in the indictment I don't really want
1:16:14
you looking in my boxes I don't want you really looking in my papers they're mine so this mind this possessiveness this
1:16:22
narcissism is how he is how he treated these documents his own staff joked and
1:16:29
this is in the indictment referencing the movie A Beautiful Mind about John Nash
1:16:34
the um the troubled um economist and if you people remember the scene in
1:16:40
the movie where he's lost his literally lost his mind and is living in a shack behind his house where he writes on the
1:16:47
Windows of his house all sorts of crazy formulas and he's and the house is just packed with with with you know documents
1:16:54
piling out of things so they joked that they called it the Beautiful Mind paper boxes which were just stuff that this
1:17:02
guy in larceny Trump threw into the boxes spilling out with classified a top
1:17:07
secret he wanted the Beautiful Mind boxes for his own that whether it was a
1:17:12
Memento he thought he was going back to the presidency he wanted to show it off transactionally or use it whatever
1:17:18
that's the motive because otherwise right doesn't make any sense like why is he just give it back what he doesn't
1:17:24
give it back because he he believes that he owns it and not the American people and sees nothing wrong and then finally
1:17:30
Ben I love that they hoisted him on his own patar Donald Trump and Jack Smith's the way they wrote this really elegant
1:17:36
efficient word economy every word every word every sentence Advance the cause
1:17:43
there is no wasted sentences in this indictment very very elegantly written but simply written in the narrative I
1:17:50
love that they said to him hey um you you yourself in 2016 and 2017 2018 made a lot of statements about
1:17:57
classified documents you made a lot of statements about how you would protect the national interests and how people
1:18:04
who leave office that continue to have access to classified documents would only you know who have a political
1:18:11
partisan role in their future life should never have access to these
1:18:16
classified documents that is a that is a a moment of inadvertent self
1:18:23
self-admission by Donald Trump because he just described himself leaving office having no reason to hold on to these
1:18:30
things he's a partisan running for office holding on a top secret documents really really well done everything we it
1:18:37
was about I I learned about 40 new things that we
1:18:42
couldn't even have speculated about the deep deep involvement personal involvement up to his elbows Donald
1:18:49
Trump himself in the document scandal yeah and I definitely think the motive
1:18:55
also and you touched on it was transactional was money you know the
1:19:00
examples that we have in this indictment um were Donald Trump just showing it
1:19:05
around like trophies and bragging it about it as a tool of trying to have
1:19:10
continued relevance based on being a malignant narcissist hey isn't this cool I I really am the winner here like not
1:19:17
only is it so dangerous like just a complete and utter idiocracy you know which is what we always call out here on
1:19:24
the Midas dead network but Donald Trump has said before he's like Nixon traded his documents for 18 million dollars so
1:19:30
clearly in the back of his mind he had views as a prior criminal who held the
1:19:36
office um and Donald Trump makes up these stories in his head and Donald Trump again what we have in the indictment are
1:19:42
two examples where it was recorded of of him bragging about these documents and
1:19:47
showing it those are exemplars those are not the totality of instances is When
1:19:53
Donald Trump did this they just it's on tape so how could a jury ever go well that didn't happen we here it is play
1:20:00
tape but if he did it in those two instances I think the point of those is think about every time he uh he he did
1:20:07
that uh before as well and and would continue to do it if he's not stopped
1:20:12
you mentioned uh the ruling by the federal judges in Washington DC
1:20:18
presiding over the grand jury finding that the crime fraud exception applied that Donald Trump was using his lawyers
1:20:25
for the commission of ongoing criminal conduct such that they couldn't assert
1:20:30
the attorney-client privilege to Shield documents and try to preserve their their class their confidentiality from
1:20:38
being turned over to the Department of Justice and a lot of those rulings were by federal judge Beryl Howell who used
1:20:44
to be the presiding judge uh in Washington D.C over uh the criminal
1:20:50
grand juries there um and now it's someone by the name of James boseberg who goes by Jeb boseberg who presides
1:20:56
over the grand juries as the presiding judge in Washington D.C District Court and he's made a number of very important
1:21:03
and favorable rulings in the other case that's still being investigated by
1:21:08
special counsel Jack Smith for Donald Trump's election interference for Donald
1:21:13
Trump's attempts to overthrow our democracy and we've got some insight
1:21:19
into the type of powerful evidence that has already been presented before first
1:21:25
judge Beryl Howell and now judge bowsberg in that case that investigation
1:21:30
is proceeding we expect the same way we were predicting the indictments on the
1:21:36
case involving Trump's theft of government records and obstruction of justice to land pretty much precisely we
1:21:42
were spot on I think when we if you go back and Rewind the episodes of when we said that one was coming I think we said
1:21:49
May or June you know potentially a little bit later but but definitely definitely summer probably early summer
1:21:54
we all think that the other indictment is going to happen sometime in September
1:21:59
October um maybe late August but we believe there's definitely another indictment
1:22:06
coming from special counsel Jack Smith and again that's from everything for the conduct on January 6 the day of the
1:22:12
Insurrection itself leading up to it wire fraud campaign Finance violations threatening state and local election
1:22:20
officials and uh the fake elector scheme all of the that criminal conduct by
1:22:26
Donald Trump but an order that was just unsealed by judge bosberg and it's very
1:22:32
rare that we get insight into what's going on in the grand jury process so
1:22:37
what judge boseberg did because Pence gave a media interview and there's just
1:22:43
been a lot publicly discussed about um former vice president Pence testifying before the grand jury
1:22:50
Trump's talked about it Pence has talked about it Trump's lawyers have talked about it and so the judge basically got
1:22:56
a motion from media uh interveners who said they want to get their hands on the
1:23:03
transcripts and everything relating to former vice president Pence's uh testimony before the grand jury and the
1:23:09
judge is like look grand jury proceedings are confidential they always are in secret however I can release
1:23:16
portions of the order compelling former vice president Pence to testify where
1:23:22
the court overruled the assertion by former vice president Pence that the
1:23:27
speech and debate clause privilege a privilege for senators and members of
1:23:33
the House of Representatives not to have to testify in other actions and Immunity from uh various types of cases when the
1:23:42
court overruled that largely the court found that the speech and debate clause in a limited sense applied to former
1:23:48
vice president pence in his ceremony role as the president of the Senate so
1:23:55
when he was in that capacity and leading up in his preparation for his role as
1:24:01
having these ceremonial duty of counting the electoral votes the court said for
1:24:07
that limited purpose I'll acknowledge the speech and debate clause applies but for everything else
1:24:13
and everything else is what special counsel Jack Smith really cared about all of Pence's observations of Donald
1:24:20
Trump committing crimes all of Pence Donald Trump threatening Pence all of
1:24:25
that is fair game and uh former vice president Pence can testify on that I
1:24:31
just want to show you just a few pages here where the judge seems to you know certainly hint at the evidence before
1:24:39
them that yes it's fair game because Donald Trump was committing crimes um so if you go to page 16 of uh
1:24:46
bozeberg's order that was just unsealed again this order comes from March of
1:24:52
this year but it's now first being unsealed on Friday last Friday and the
1:24:57
court basically says having set out the ground rules the court may now get down to business it assesses these specific
1:25:04
topics and those are redacted in order to provide guidance to the parties going forward and note several areas within
1:25:11
those categories that the privilege does or does not cover the bottom line is that the conversations exhorting pens to
1:25:19
reject electors on January 6 are not protected they fall under Brewster's
1:25:25
rule Brewster's just a the Brewster is a case involving a senator who is taking
1:25:30
bribes okay so that's what Brewster refers to they fall under Brewster's rule that Communications
1:25:37
urging a legislator to act unlawfully or Ultra viries are not Preparatory or at
1:25:44
most only incidentally so to a legislative function there is no dispute
1:25:50
in this case that Pence lack the authority to reject electoral votes then
1:25:55
there's a redaction indeed as Pence described in his book he never believed that the vice president's role on
1:26:00
January 6 was anything more than ceremonial so here the basis of the
1:26:06
Court's ruling is that where someone is being instructed to act unlawfully those
1:26:12
are not legislative in nature so they're analogizing Trump to this other case
1:26:17
where someone acted unlawfully and then finally uh the uh if you go to page 19
1:26:24
it goes and explains this privilege that Pence is a side is citing up and and how the court is
1:26:32
construing it applies in a way that is Broad enough to ensure the historic Independence of the legislative branch
1:26:39
but narrow enough to guard against the excess of those who would corrupt the
1:26:47
process by corrupting its members okay so in compelling former vice president
1:26:53
Pence to testify what the court is saying there is that Donald Trump was
1:27:00
corrupting the process by corrupting its members if Pence was trying to claim an
1:27:07
immunity like being the president of the Senate it's subtle but very very powerful and tells you that that case is
1:27:15
moving towards uh very very serious charge as well and I'll pass it to you popoc but if we saw 38 charges that were
1:27:24
brought in this case in the southern district of Florida for the willful retention of National Defense
1:27:30
information and obstruction of justice I've always said I thought you're going to see hundreds of counts in connection
1:27:36
with the January 6th case that's being investigated I think you will see hundreds 200 300 you know close
1:27:44
definitely I think close to 200 counts uh in that uh in that indictment popock
1:27:49
I think you just made a hot tick for the all the Pence things there I don't think that's it you're done salty cut it
1:27:55
you're ready to go but let me see what I can hit I want to make a statement as you and I
1:28:01
have been talking about things for over two years to the audience members globally and
1:28:06
locally what we are describing in sometimes excruciating but hopefully
1:28:12
entertaining detail is a justice system that works
1:28:17
I know that we talk about you know how many times is he going to get away with it Donald Trump how many times is he
1:28:24
going to be yes there'll be a suit but will he will he be forced by a jury to pay anything the answer to that has been
1:28:31
yes look at all the suits that he files 90 of them attacking the election will
1:28:37
maybe one of them will be successful they weren't um maybe he'll his appeals to even to
1:28:44
the Supreme Court that he has packed with Maga right wing six to three majority will give him a uh will give
1:28:52
him wind at a sale it doesn't the federal judges on the Circuit Court some of them are appointed by him maybe
1:28:59
they'll come to his rescue in response to something they haven't they won't and
1:29:05
they can't and so we talk about Eileen cannon at length for good reason and she
1:29:10
was a poor example of the federal Judiciary at a moment that was important to our nation's history but
1:29:17
for every for everything else that you and I have talked about in the last two years involving Donald Trump trump his
1:29:24
henchmen and his cronies the justice department especially the federal one but even state
1:29:30
works so and it's something to be proud of and I'm proud today I know there's a whole bunch of lawyers and lackeys and
1:29:37
and Hangar honors and bootlickers for Donald Trump like Alina Haba who got on television they're still doing it Carrie
1:29:43
Lake made a comment during a press rally that there's a second amendment solution to Merrick Garland and Jack Smith's
1:29:48
indictment of Donald Trump I mean that sounds like the Secret Service should start opening an investigation into
1:29:54
Kerry Lake's threats against the Department of Justice and they should um so the the right-wing Maga are coming
1:30:01
out with oh sad day sad day in America sad day for justice I'm I'm ashamed to be a lawyer it's it's the opposite this
1:30:09
is what the founding fathers wanted it is a major protection guardrail firewall
1:30:14
firewall for our democracy the conscience of our democracy and every time you and I tell tell this of what's
1:30:22
Happening whether it's Jeb Bose Barrel Howell the judges of the DC Circuit Court even the judges of the Supreme
1:30:28
Court in rejecting Donald Trump's and treaties to interfere in Justice we are
1:30:34
watching this in real time some people get frustrated and get fatigued and like I'm tired of hearing about it tell me
1:30:40
when he's in jail but this is the process the journey that we're on together this journey that we're on together is
1:30:47
our justice system it's like the old John Lennon line life is what is life is
1:30:53
what happens when you're making plans we are in this is the justice system it all
1:30:58
if it's in all of its glory and and and warts and all but at the end of the day
1:31:04
when adults are in the room wearing the black robes and you have uh lawyers like
1:31:10
some of the finest at the Department of Justice handling the case with Jack Smith good things come out of it and thank God
1:31:16
that they do this is our this is why the rest of the world should be proud of our system of justice because we just
1:31:23
indicted twice in two months a former president of the United States for the
1:31:28
first time in American history and although it may not mean something so those that are continuing to run for
1:31:33
office and to grift it means something to everyone else that cares about democracy and Justice and we are so
1:31:40
proud that all of the legal a efforts everybody watching this who has been
1:31:45
with us from day one or if you're just joining us now welcome um but none of this is possible you know
1:31:51
without you this community this pro-democracy community that speaks the
1:31:56
truth you know Michael Popa Karen Friedman agnifolo myself my brothers all of the other hosts on the Midas touch
1:32:01
Network we just got sick and tired of large media networks gaslighting us and not giving us the facts and not spending
1:32:08
the time to explain the justice system and not spending the time to go through what's actually stated in the complaint
1:32:16
and showing the photos and explaining the complexity and talking about issues that may be difficult or complex but we
1:32:24
ultimately know that that's why that's why you're here you want to learn about that we wanna we wanted the media to be
1:32:31
like that and so when we didn't see the media doing that we just said we're going to create it ourselves so we did it we built the Midas touch Network we
1:32:37
built out legal AF and all of the other shows on this network but most importantly what you built is what's
1:32:44
been most impressive to me and that's real Community a real unapologetically pro-democracy community and I know after
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you watch these shows or after you listen to these shows on the Midas touch Network like legal AF you share this
1:32:58
knowledge with your family friends co-workers colleagues you spread the
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1:33:16
and the Midas touch Network we say thank you and it's an honor to be working by
1:33:22
your side historic episode today on legal AF we'll see you for the midweek
1:33:27
Edition with Michael popock and Karen Friedman agnifola which is always live on uh Wednesday evenings I'm sure
1:33:34
there's going to be a lot of information to report I'm sure there'll probably will even be a lot of breaking news live
1:33:40
coverage here that we will be bringing to you on Tuesday and perhaps even Monday as we learn more information
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:13 pm
Trump’s FEDERAL ARRAIGNMENT Transcript FINALLY Released
by Karen Friedman Agnifilo
MeidasTouch
Jun 15, 2023
Legal AF Host and Former Prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo reports on the newly released transcripts from Trump’s federal indictment arraignment in Miami.
Transcript
transcripts are out I'm Karen Friedman
agnifolo from legal AF and we just got
the transcripts from the arraignment in
federal court of Donald Trump in the
southern district of Florida we heard
lots of reporting from reporters who
were in the room don't forget there were
no cameras allowed there was no
recording allowed so we did get lots of
reporting from people who were in the
room but we finally got the transcripts
I got to read them myself and so let's
talk about exactly what happened
in Donald Trump's Federal arraignment in
the southern district of Florida
so he was arraigned by judge Jonathan
Goodman Jack Smith was also there we
were are told by reporters he wasn't
sitting in the well so he wasn't
mentioned in the transcript anywhere but
we we know he was there the arraignment
started at 2 55 pm and it ended at 3 44
pm and it was in courtroom
13-3 this was both the initial
appearance and the arraignment of both
Donald Trump and Walt waltin also known
as Walt Nauta
an initial appearance is the first time
you go to court the arraignment is when
you are told what your charges are they
most of the time happen at the same time
but not always so this was both the
initial appearance and the arraignment
of Donald Trump it was only the initial
appearance of Walt Nauta his arraignment
has been put over a couple of weeks and
I'll tell you why in a minute the
lawyers who were there the prosecutors
were Jay Bratt David harbach and Julie
Edelstein and the lawyers for Donald
Trump or Chris kais and Todd Blanche and
Stanley Woodward appeared for Walt Nauta
pre-trial Services was also there and
pre-trial Services is a really important
agency that works for the federal
government and they interview every
single person who's arrested and they
make a recommendation to the court about
whether the person should be released
and if they or or should they be held
you know in other words should they be
they held in jail pre-trial or should
bail be set or are there conditions on
their release and pre-trial services
will also monitor somebody who's
released with conditions so that's what
pre-trial Services is I don't know
whether or not they interviewed Donald
Trump I assume they did because that's
part of the standard arrest processing
and uh so so we'll get to that in a
minute uh when I when we explain what
the conditions are that the judge said
so the judge started by thanking
everyone Under the Sun including the
entire literally the entire law
enforcement Community uh court reporters
everybody just thanked everybody and
then he reminded everybody that there's
no photos or videos of anyone uh in the
room you're not allowed to use devices
and that includes people in the
spillover room so what that told me is
they had a spillover room there was a
room which is very common to do if the
courtroom's not big enough to hold all
the people that there is you know when
there's cases that have a lot of
interest they open up another room and
they and they stream on video what's
happening in in the courtroom and so the
judge was speaking to both rooms both
the people in the courtroom as well as
the spillover room that there's no
photos no videos no recording whatsoever
so they uh the judge took the defendants
both Trump and Nauta uh separately and
they they didn't in other words he
didn't do both at the same time he just
did Donald Trump first and he asked
Donald Trump's lawyers are they
temporarily representing him or are they
permanent and that's important because
you know sometimes attorneys appear for
arraignment only and then uh and then
and then a defendant goes and looks for
a more permanent lawyer you can also
change lawyers at any time but these
lawyers Todd Blanche and Chris kise
indicated to the judge that they were
permanently representing Donald Trump
and so they might add new lawyers to the
team there was lots of reporting that
they're interviewing other lawyers but
apparently these two lawyers are in for
both the trial and the appeal they said
that on the record as well
the the judge then said you know
normally in this in this uh District
people wave the formal reading of the
indictment because it's 44 pages long if
a defendant doesn't waive the formal
reading of the indictment they would
have sat there and the judge would have
or the clerk would have read every
single thing that's in that 44-page
indictment however Donald Trump's
lawyers said as is very common uh we
waive the formal reading of the
indictment and entered a plea of not
guilty which is also was expected that's
obviously he's going to enter a plea of
not guilty and he demanded a jury trial
and that's a formality that you have to
do you demand a jury trial and and so
that's noted on the record and he'll get
a jury trial the judge then went on to
explain what's typical in our district
is how he put it so he said you know and
so it sounded like he was he was
educating both the lawyers who don't
necessarily practice their everyday and
Donald Trump as well as everybody else
who's reading these transcripts knowing
that we would read them he wanted to
make sure that he was educating
everybody so he would say things like uh
what what typically happens in our
district the typical steps in our
district are that the defense would
request a standing discover Discovery
order is that what your uh what you're
requesting Mr Blanche and Mr Blanche
would say yes your honor so at standing
Discovery order means
that uh that there's an order by the
judge standing means it's in effect the
whole the whole time the whole pendency
of the case and in order means it's a
court order because only the court can
order you to do anything in a criminal
case and it's a discovery order which
means the government is under an
obligation to provide Discovery at the
appropriate time to the defense then the
judge says and I assume you want a Brady
order and he said I assume that the
prosecutors know their Brady obligation
but I'm doing a standard Brady order as
well and Brady is comes from a very
famous case Brady versus Maryland which
is a Supreme Court case
um that's been around for decades and it
basically says if a prosecutor has any
information in their possession that is
exculpatory to the defense they must
turn it over and they must turn it over
right away you can't hold on to it you
have to turn it over at the soonest
possible practical time and you have to
say I have this information in in my
possession that tends to exculpate you
means it tends to show your innocence
even if you think the person's lying as
a prosecutor it's not up to you to say
well I think that person's lying I have
a witness who came forward and said it
wasn't him that's considered Brady you
have to turn it over
so the judge issued a standard Brady
order again standard so then they get to
the part and this is the part that that
I found frankly somewhat disgraceful uh
because they get to the part about bail
or Bond right about release because you
know everyone was calling this
arraignment perfunctory you know and I
heard a lot of people say it's just
perfunctory it's just an arraignment
well you know now I've been a prosecutor
for a very long time and now I'm a
defense attorney there's nothing at all
perfunctory about bail I mean about
um about an arraignment you were
formally told what your charges are and
and you know I tell all my clients and
um and frankly you know most as a
prosecutor you assume the same I tell my
clients bring your toothbrush you don't
know there you can't there is there is
no way you can assume that you are not
going to have bail Set uh in a case or
you could be remanded which means you
know no amount of money will get you out
and means there are no it means you are
held and detained period full stop no
bail
um but oftentimes if you do set bail
there are large amounts of money
especially in really serious cases
so I didn't I'm probably the only person
uh who didn't think this but I didn't
think it was it was going to be you know
no conditions to Donald Trump in a case
like this but apparently that's what
happened so the judge asked the
prosecutor Mr harbach uh you know I'm
I'm seeing that you are recommend not
recommending any dollar amount uh for
bail here and the prosecutor said that
is correct your honor and you are
recommending a personal recognizance
release which just means you get to walk
out that's it on your own that's correct
your honor and that is recommended by
the United States right right and you
don't want any conditions imposed other
than the because there's two standard
conditions number one and number five
which basically are like come back to
court and don't get arrested that's it
just don't commit any other crimes while
you're out but the other conditions that
are standard conditions that everyone
else has to abide by they don't apply
right you don't you don't view him as a
Flight Risk do you government government
says no so you're not asking for any
special conditions nope no Financial
component nope
and he says you know 18 USC 3142 sub a
sub 1 allows a defendant to be released
on their own recognizance on an
unsecured Bond if they're not a Flight
Risk and the person won't endanger the
safety of another person or the
community and he said basically are you
asking that he not surrender his
passport Port are you requesting that
that's standard I've never had a client
who hasn't had to surrender their
passport in federal court that's
outrageous okay nope no limitation on
international travel what about domestic
travel is there any limitation on that
because you know it's standard a
standard condition is no travel outside
the southern district of Florida or
whatever District you're in in a federal
case again all my clients can't leave
the district that uh that the case is in
that's a standard condition of release
nope your honor we don't see that as
necessary
okay then they get to you know they get
to one that says uh how about how about
the standard condition of forbidding him
from possessing firearms government uh
what's your position on Firearms
ammunition and dangerous devices nope no
problem he can do that too and then the
judge says what about are you requesting
that he avoid contact with the
co-defendants and you know what they
said nope we're not requesting that
either judge he works for Walt Nauta
works for Trump so that would not be
practicable so nope he can have contact
with the co-defendants
and the judge then said are you
requesting that Donald Trump report to
priest trial services in any way again
every one of my clients has to go to
pre-trial services and they said no they
said we're not asking for that at all
they're not asking for any special
condition of release and pre-trial
Services said the same thing they said
we're not requesting anything either
judge and so the judge says well okay
and clearly this judge was surprised
because this is so highly unusual and
Donald Trump is being treated
differently than everybody else once
again
the judge said you know what despite the
part of course the defense has no
objection to that right why as a defense
attorney would you have any objection to
these incredible terms and these
incredible conditions because Donald
Trump this doesn't matter he can just go
about living his life despite the fact
that he has another open indictment and
we know of two more open criminal uh
cases you know pending investigations
both uh January 6 with Jack Smith and
um and Fulton County with uh fonnie
Willis but despite the fact that there's
two indictments now and two other
pending cases no conditions judge and I
bet if you looked in the entire country
you will not find another case involving
a defendant who has two separate
indictments and two separate
jurisdictions and two other pending uh
Court in the I mean two other pending
criminal investigations and they get
this kind of a deal but he's Donald
Trump and so here he he gets this but I
think the judge was a little taken aback
that that there was Zero conditions and
he is going to protect the Integrity of
the case because you know he's the judge
that's all he really cares about is the
Integrity of the case so he says
however despite the party's
recommendations to me I am going to take
it upon myself to impose some additional
special conditions think thank you judge
thank you for you know being the
grown-up in the room and seeing that you
know what guess what Donald Trump is a
criminal defendant and shouldn't be
treated differently than everybody else
and he says I'm going to require that
Donald Trump avoid all contact with
Witnesses and victims except through
counsel and this will be effective once
the defense attorney receives a written
list of those Witnesses and victims from
the prosecutor and the prosecution
this prohibition is only effective to
those people who are written on the list
and he's also said the second condition
is he can't communicate with his
co-defendant Walt Nauta about the case
except through Council so in other words
he can have contact with uh Mr Nauta
since he still works for Donald Trump
but they can't talk about the case
unless they're with their lawyers now
Todd Blanche uh Trump's attorney
objected to these conditions he says
this isn't practical the witnesses
include his protection detail and
everyone who's around him every day is
just like with Nauta this happened at his
home in Mar-A-Lago it also happened at
his other Home Bedminster these people
work with him every day and he says you
know then he says and one witness is the
president's lawyer obviously that
doesn't work that was surprising that
I'm sure he means Evan Corcoran and so
Evan Corcoran is still his lawyer and
even though we know he's the one who is
turned over his notes and is telling
everybody what uh telling the prosecutor
what um
uh exactly what happened and what Donald
Trump did and said so that was
interesting that Trump still considers
Evan Corcoran his lawyer and then um the
prosecutor says okay you know what let's
just let me make a suggestion Mr harbox
says let me make a suggestion the
government will come up with a list not
all the witnesses but a list of people
who this requirement is necessary for
and that will accommodate Mr blanche's
uh
issue about incidental contact because
Mr Trump you know speaks to these people
uh every day so he and Mr Blanche um
Todd Blanche said you know what uh you
know I'm not sure about this I don't
want this I don't want this requirement
but but harbox says the prosecutor says
you know what judge let us let let me
and Mr uh Blanche try and come up with
something a proposal for you judge and
we'll come to you with a list and and
we'll I think we can sort this out
amongst ourselves clearly they were
caught flat-footed and didn't realize
this was going to happen and they were
totally unprepared because they spent
the next I'd say 10 15 minutes going
back and forth about this we have two
lists you know one for no contact at all
and others for don't discuss the case
and Blanche is upset about this and says
we can't do this and you know and then
and then um and then harbox says well
give us time to try to work it out and
they're going back and forth and backing
back and forth and um one point Blanche
says you know why should there be any
conditions everybody although all the
witnesses have lawyers you know and then
the court says that's a really broad
statement in fact every single witness
has their own lawyer but then of course
he hems and Haws and walks that back
because he doesn't want to admit that
yes everyone has a lawyer how do I know
because Trump is paying for everyone's
lawyers but but that's neither here nor
there that's what I think he didn't mean
to spill that that can of beans
um and so you know they go back and
forth on this for quite some time and
um and they ultimately land on uh the
you know because I think Todd Blanche
realizes
um realizes at a certain point going
wait a minute because he says is the
Court's requirement that the government
is going to give us a full witness list
because we'll take that and so I think
they realized you know oh my God you
don't normally get a full witness list
in fact some people are secret you have
no idea that they're cooperating and you
don't want to let the defense know that
they're cooperating because we know
Donald Trump will then you know bully
them put their name out there and and
really intimidate them and and and you
know like he has for every other every
other person out there call them names
you know whatever so so Todd Blanche
wakes up and realizes the this could be
a gift but you know uh but the judge
says no no no not so much let's just do
this okay let's just get a list of
people from the government that will
tell us that who it is that that uh
Trump should not speak about the facts
of the case that's it and if if the
person's not on the list and he talks
about the facts of the case then he's
not in violation of this order just
people on the list so the government's
gonna have to go back and say they're
probably they're going to probably say
this is not a full witness list these
are just the people that we don't want
Donald Trump to talk about the case with
so we'll see what they come up with but
that was a little bit of a
inelegant
um back and forth that people did not
expect and
um and there was a lot of time spent on
that but then they turned to the
co-defendant Walt Nauta
Stanley Woodward appeared for him but
he's not admitted in the southern
district of Florida which is a
requirement to appear in court there so
the judge used his discretion and
allowed Mr Woodward to represent him and
appear on the record for his initial
appearance but not for the arraignment
and so the initial the initial
appearance he gave the same conditions
on Mr Nauta that he did to Mr Trump which
is nothing and so it's the exact same
Bond and they put over his arraignment
for June 27th at 9 45 a.m before the
chief magistrate Edwin Torres but then
he said you know there's a Federal
Criminal procedure 10B that indicates Mr
Nauta doesn't have to appear physically
if he doesn't want to for arraignment if
he follows the procedures of the rule
but the lawyer does have to appear which
I found very interesting because that is
very different from New York State Court
where a defendant has to appear for his
arraignment
but I guess federally you don't have to
so he may or may not appear he may
appear on video he may appear in person
or he might not appear at all his bond
is already set as as exactly what what
Trump had and then the judge ends it
with the good news is when Mr Nauta
appears it will not be with me it'll be
the chief Magistrate Judge Ed Torres my
involvement in this case I think ends
right about now so he clearly didn't
want to have anything to do with this he
just you know it was his day uh that he
was signed up to be the duty judge to
handle any arraignments that came in and
that was that so now
um after Mr Nauta is arraigned the entire
matter will go before judge Eileen
Cannon who has been assigned this case
uh through the wheel which means it was
a random just assignment you know that
that comes up on the wheel
um you know when when they got Eileen
Cannon uh Jack Smith basically was the
opposite of winning the lotto it was the
worst possible hand you can draw because
she's already made some terrible rulings
on this case in the past during the
investigation and showed that she has
bias against Trump so we'll see where
that goes
um I'm sorry she has bias for Trump not
against Trump uh she has bias against
the government for bringing this case
um
so it was not a great not a great draw
um I think this you know arraignment was
fairly outrageous because you know I
want to just draw your attention to a
couple of other cases uh do you remember
Airman Jack Tashara who was arrested a
while back in Massachusetts he was a
young kid with the Air National
Guardsmen uh he he's the one who posted
classified documents about the word on
in Ukraine on social media and he also
sought to obstruct investigators he also
had a history of violent and racist
remarks and he is also a target for
hostile foreign power you know this is a
guy who worked on I.T for classified
computer systems and you know what he
also possessed the documents and only
showed them to a small group of people
to brag right just to kind of show off
look what I can get look what I can do
doesn't this sound familiar the entire
set of facts getting these documents and
bragging to a small group of people and
showing it to them then obstructing
investigators you know when they try to
retrieve this back and uh and and also
having a history of violent and racist
remarks well guess where Jack Tashara is
he is in jail why because he's dangerous
and he's a Flight Risk and this is a
serious case and so he's in jail
awaiting his trial also compare it to
Chelsea Manning Edward Snowden other
cases of of uh you know leaked documents
and you know it's just a very familiar
that anyone else who who does this is
considered a threat to National Security
but someone who who foments a violent
insurrection
who spews racist hateful uh violent
remarks and who recklessly and willfully
possesses and maintains and shows off
classified documents that are our most
secret materials
and who also has several criminal cases
that are either pending or under
investigation somehow he is released
with no conditions because he is once
again treated differently than everybody
else but not in the way he means he gets
away with everything that nobody else
does because he thinks he is above the
law and it is time now to hold him
accountable
thank you for joining I'm Karen Friedman
agnifolo from legal AF you can catch me
on Wednesdays with Michael popock at 8pm
Eastern Live on YouTube or wherever you
get your podcasts and you can also watch
legal AF on Saturdays with Ben Meiselas
and Michael popock also Saturdays at 8
pm Eastern
by Karen Friedman Agnifilo
MeidasTouch
Jun 15, 2023
Legal AF Host and Former Prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo reports on the newly released transcripts from Trump’s federal indictment arraignment in Miami.
Transcript
transcripts are out I'm Karen Friedman
agnifolo from legal AF and we just got
the transcripts from the arraignment in
federal court of Donald Trump in the
southern district of Florida we heard
lots of reporting from reporters who
were in the room don't forget there were
no cameras allowed there was no
recording allowed so we did get lots of
reporting from people who were in the
room but we finally got the transcripts
I got to read them myself and so let's
talk about exactly what happened
in Donald Trump's Federal arraignment in
the southern district of Florida
so he was arraigned by judge Jonathan
Goodman Jack Smith was also there we
were are told by reporters he wasn't
sitting in the well so he wasn't
mentioned in the transcript anywhere but
we we know he was there the arraignment
started at 2 55 pm and it ended at 3 44
pm and it was in courtroom
13-3 this was both the initial
appearance and the arraignment of both
Donald Trump and Walt waltin also known
as Walt Nauta
an initial appearance is the first time
you go to court the arraignment is when
you are told what your charges are they
most of the time happen at the same time
but not always so this was both the
initial appearance and the arraignment
of Donald Trump it was only the initial
appearance of Walt Nauta his arraignment
has been put over a couple of weeks and
I'll tell you why in a minute the
lawyers who were there the prosecutors
were Jay Bratt David harbach and Julie
Edelstein and the lawyers for Donald
Trump or Chris kais and Todd Blanche and
Stanley Woodward appeared for Walt Nauta
pre-trial Services was also there and
pre-trial Services is a really important
agency that works for the federal
government and they interview every
single person who's arrested and they
make a recommendation to the court about
whether the person should be released
and if they or or should they be held
you know in other words should they be
they held in jail pre-trial or should
bail be set or are there conditions on
their release and pre-trial services
will also monitor somebody who's
released with conditions so that's what
pre-trial Services is I don't know
whether or not they interviewed Donald
Trump I assume they did because that's
part of the standard arrest processing
and uh so so we'll get to that in a
minute uh when I when we explain what
the conditions are that the judge said
so the judge started by thanking
everyone Under the Sun including the
entire literally the entire law
enforcement Community uh court reporters
everybody just thanked everybody and
then he reminded everybody that there's
no photos or videos of anyone uh in the
room you're not allowed to use devices
and that includes people in the
spillover room so what that told me is
they had a spillover room there was a
room which is very common to do if the
courtroom's not big enough to hold all
the people that there is you know when
there's cases that have a lot of
interest they open up another room and
they and they stream on video what's
happening in in the courtroom and so the
judge was speaking to both rooms both
the people in the courtroom as well as
the spillover room that there's no
photos no videos no recording whatsoever
so they uh the judge took the defendants
both Trump and Nauta uh separately and
they they didn't in other words he
didn't do both at the same time he just
did Donald Trump first and he asked
Donald Trump's lawyers are they
temporarily representing him or are they
permanent and that's important because
you know sometimes attorneys appear for
arraignment only and then uh and then
and then a defendant goes and looks for
a more permanent lawyer you can also
change lawyers at any time but these
lawyers Todd Blanche and Chris kise
indicated to the judge that they were
permanently representing Donald Trump
and so they might add new lawyers to the
team there was lots of reporting that
they're interviewing other lawyers but
apparently these two lawyers are in for
both the trial and the appeal they said
that on the record as well
the the judge then said you know
normally in this in this uh District
people wave the formal reading of the
indictment because it's 44 pages long if
a defendant doesn't waive the formal
reading of the indictment they would
have sat there and the judge would have
or the clerk would have read every
single thing that's in that 44-page
indictment however Donald Trump's
lawyers said as is very common uh we
waive the formal reading of the
indictment and entered a plea of not
guilty which is also was expected that's
obviously he's going to enter a plea of
not guilty and he demanded a jury trial
and that's a formality that you have to
do you demand a jury trial and and so
that's noted on the record and he'll get
a jury trial the judge then went on to
explain what's typical in our district
is how he put it so he said you know and
so it sounded like he was he was
educating both the lawyers who don't
necessarily practice their everyday and
Donald Trump as well as everybody else
who's reading these transcripts knowing
that we would read them he wanted to
make sure that he was educating
everybody so he would say things like uh
what what typically happens in our
district the typical steps in our
district are that the defense would
request a standing discover Discovery
order is that what your uh what you're
requesting Mr Blanche and Mr Blanche
would say yes your honor so at standing
Discovery order means
that uh that there's an order by the
judge standing means it's in effect the
whole the whole time the whole pendency
of the case and in order means it's a
court order because only the court can
order you to do anything in a criminal
case and it's a discovery order which
means the government is under an
obligation to provide Discovery at the
appropriate time to the defense then the
judge says and I assume you want a Brady
order and he said I assume that the
prosecutors know their Brady obligation
but I'm doing a standard Brady order as
well and Brady is comes from a very
famous case Brady versus Maryland which
is a Supreme Court case
um that's been around for decades and it
basically says if a prosecutor has any
information in their possession that is
exculpatory to the defense they must
turn it over and they must turn it over
right away you can't hold on to it you
have to turn it over at the soonest
possible practical time and you have to
say I have this information in in my
possession that tends to exculpate you
means it tends to show your innocence
even if you think the person's lying as
a prosecutor it's not up to you to say
well I think that person's lying I have
a witness who came forward and said it
wasn't him that's considered Brady you
have to turn it over
so the judge issued a standard Brady
order again standard so then they get to
the part and this is the part that that
I found frankly somewhat disgraceful uh
because they get to the part about bail
or Bond right about release because you
know everyone was calling this
arraignment perfunctory you know and I
heard a lot of people say it's just
perfunctory it's just an arraignment
well you know now I've been a prosecutor
for a very long time and now I'm a
defense attorney there's nothing at all
perfunctory about bail I mean about
um about an arraignment you were
formally told what your charges are and
and you know I tell all my clients and
um and frankly you know most as a
prosecutor you assume the same I tell my
clients bring your toothbrush you don't
know there you can't there is there is
no way you can assume that you are not
going to have bail Set uh in a case or
you could be remanded which means you
know no amount of money will get you out
and means there are no it means you are
held and detained period full stop no
bail
um but oftentimes if you do set bail
there are large amounts of money
especially in really serious cases
so I didn't I'm probably the only person
uh who didn't think this but I didn't
think it was it was going to be you know
no conditions to Donald Trump in a case
like this but apparently that's what
happened so the judge asked the
prosecutor Mr harbach uh you know I'm
I'm seeing that you are recommend not
recommending any dollar amount uh for
bail here and the prosecutor said that
is correct your honor and you are
recommending a personal recognizance
release which just means you get to walk
out that's it on your own that's correct
your honor and that is recommended by
the United States right right and you
don't want any conditions imposed other
than the because there's two standard
conditions number one and number five
which basically are like come back to
court and don't get arrested that's it
just don't commit any other crimes while
you're out but the other conditions that
are standard conditions that everyone
else has to abide by they don't apply
right you don't you don't view him as a
Flight Risk do you government government
says no so you're not asking for any
special conditions nope no Financial
component nope
and he says you know 18 USC 3142 sub a
sub 1 allows a defendant to be released
on their own recognizance on an
unsecured Bond if they're not a Flight
Risk and the person won't endanger the
safety of another person or the
community and he said basically are you
asking that he not surrender his
passport Port are you requesting that
that's standard I've never had a client
who hasn't had to surrender their
passport in federal court that's
outrageous okay nope no limitation on
international travel what about domestic
travel is there any limitation on that
because you know it's standard a
standard condition is no travel outside
the southern district of Florida or
whatever District you're in in a federal
case again all my clients can't leave
the district that uh that the case is in
that's a standard condition of release
nope your honor we don't see that as
necessary
okay then they get to you know they get
to one that says uh how about how about
the standard condition of forbidding him
from possessing firearms government uh
what's your position on Firearms
ammunition and dangerous devices nope no
problem he can do that too and then the
judge says what about are you requesting
that he avoid contact with the
co-defendants and you know what they
said nope we're not requesting that
either judge he works for Walt Nauta
works for Trump so that would not be
practicable so nope he can have contact
with the co-defendants
and the judge then said are you
requesting that Donald Trump report to
priest trial services in any way again
every one of my clients has to go to
pre-trial services and they said no they
said we're not asking for that at all
they're not asking for any special
condition of release and pre-trial
Services said the same thing they said
we're not requesting anything either
judge and so the judge says well okay
and clearly this judge was surprised
because this is so highly unusual and
Donald Trump is being treated
differently than everybody else once
again
the judge said you know what despite the
part of course the defense has no
objection to that right why as a defense
attorney would you have any objection to
these incredible terms and these
incredible conditions because Donald
Trump this doesn't matter he can just go
about living his life despite the fact
that he has another open indictment and
we know of two more open criminal uh
cases you know pending investigations
both uh January 6 with Jack Smith and
um and Fulton County with uh fonnie
Willis but despite the fact that there's
two indictments now and two other
pending cases no conditions judge and I
bet if you looked in the entire country
you will not find another case involving
a defendant who has two separate
indictments and two separate
jurisdictions and two other pending uh
Court in the I mean two other pending
criminal investigations and they get
this kind of a deal but he's Donald
Trump and so here he he gets this but I
think the judge was a little taken aback
that that there was Zero conditions and
he is going to protect the Integrity of
the case because you know he's the judge
that's all he really cares about is the
Integrity of the case so he says
however despite the party's
recommendations to me I am going to take
it upon myself to impose some additional
special conditions think thank you judge
thank you for you know being the
grown-up in the room and seeing that you
know what guess what Donald Trump is a
criminal defendant and shouldn't be
treated differently than everybody else
and he says I'm going to require that
Donald Trump avoid all contact with
Witnesses and victims except through
counsel and this will be effective once
the defense attorney receives a written
list of those Witnesses and victims from
the prosecutor and the prosecution
this prohibition is only effective to
those people who are written on the list
and he's also said the second condition
is he can't communicate with his
co-defendant Walt Nauta about the case
except through Council so in other words
he can have contact with uh Mr Nauta
since he still works for Donald Trump
but they can't talk about the case
unless they're with their lawyers now
Todd Blanche uh Trump's attorney
objected to these conditions he says
this isn't practical the witnesses
include his protection detail and
everyone who's around him every day is
just like with Nauta this happened at his
home in Mar-A-Lago it also happened at
his other Home Bedminster these people
work with him every day and he says you
know then he says and one witness is the
president's lawyer obviously that
doesn't work that was surprising that
I'm sure he means Evan Corcoran and so
Evan Corcoran is still his lawyer and
even though we know he's the one who is
turned over his notes and is telling
everybody what uh telling the prosecutor
what um
uh exactly what happened and what Donald
Trump did and said so that was
interesting that Trump still considers
Evan Corcoran his lawyer and then um the
prosecutor says okay you know what let's
just let me make a suggestion Mr harbox
says let me make a suggestion the
government will come up with a list not
all the witnesses but a list of people
who this requirement is necessary for
and that will accommodate Mr blanche's
uh
issue about incidental contact because
Mr Trump you know speaks to these people
uh every day so he and Mr Blanche um
Todd Blanche said you know what uh you
know I'm not sure about this I don't
want this I don't want this requirement
but but harbox says the prosecutor says
you know what judge let us let let me
and Mr uh Blanche try and come up with
something a proposal for you judge and
we'll come to you with a list and and
we'll I think we can sort this out
amongst ourselves clearly they were
caught flat-footed and didn't realize
this was going to happen and they were
totally unprepared because they spent
the next I'd say 10 15 minutes going
back and forth about this we have two
lists you know one for no contact at all
and others for don't discuss the case
and Blanche is upset about this and says
we can't do this and you know and then
and then um and then harbox says well
give us time to try to work it out and
they're going back and forth and backing
back and forth and um one point Blanche
says you know why should there be any
conditions everybody although all the
witnesses have lawyers you know and then
the court says that's a really broad
statement in fact every single witness
has their own lawyer but then of course
he hems and Haws and walks that back
because he doesn't want to admit that
yes everyone has a lawyer how do I know
because Trump is paying for everyone's
lawyers but but that's neither here nor
there that's what I think he didn't mean
to spill that that can of beans
um and so you know they go back and
forth on this for quite some time and
um and they ultimately land on uh the
you know because I think Todd Blanche
realizes
um realizes at a certain point going
wait a minute because he says is the
Court's requirement that the government
is going to give us a full witness list
because we'll take that and so I think
they realized you know oh my God you
don't normally get a full witness list
in fact some people are secret you have
no idea that they're cooperating and you
don't want to let the defense know that
they're cooperating because we know
Donald Trump will then you know bully
them put their name out there and and
really intimidate them and and and you
know like he has for every other every
other person out there call them names
you know whatever so so Todd Blanche
wakes up and realizes the this could be
a gift but you know uh but the judge
says no no no not so much let's just do
this okay let's just get a list of
people from the government that will
tell us that who it is that that uh
Trump should not speak about the facts
of the case that's it and if if the
person's not on the list and he talks
about the facts of the case then he's
not in violation of this order just
people on the list so the government's
gonna have to go back and say they're
probably they're going to probably say
this is not a full witness list these
are just the people that we don't want
Donald Trump to talk about the case with
so we'll see what they come up with but
that was a little bit of a
inelegant
um back and forth that people did not
expect and
um and there was a lot of time spent on
that but then they turned to the
co-defendant Walt Nauta
Stanley Woodward appeared for him but
he's not admitted in the southern
district of Florida which is a
requirement to appear in court there so
the judge used his discretion and
allowed Mr Woodward to represent him and
appear on the record for his initial
appearance but not for the arraignment
and so the initial the initial
appearance he gave the same conditions
on Mr Nauta that he did to Mr Trump which
is nothing and so it's the exact same
Bond and they put over his arraignment
for June 27th at 9 45 a.m before the
chief magistrate Edwin Torres but then
he said you know there's a Federal
Criminal procedure 10B that indicates Mr
Nauta doesn't have to appear physically
if he doesn't want to for arraignment if
he follows the procedures of the rule
but the lawyer does have to appear which
I found very interesting because that is
very different from New York State Court
where a defendant has to appear for his
arraignment
but I guess federally you don't have to
so he may or may not appear he may
appear on video he may appear in person
or he might not appear at all his bond
is already set as as exactly what what
Trump had and then the judge ends it
with the good news is when Mr Nauta
appears it will not be with me it'll be
the chief Magistrate Judge Ed Torres my
involvement in this case I think ends
right about now so he clearly didn't
want to have anything to do with this he
just you know it was his day uh that he
was signed up to be the duty judge to
handle any arraignments that came in and
that was that so now
um after Mr Nauta is arraigned the entire
matter will go before judge Eileen
Cannon who has been assigned this case
uh through the wheel which means it was
a random just assignment you know that
that comes up on the wheel
um you know when when they got Eileen
Cannon uh Jack Smith basically was the
opposite of winning the lotto it was the
worst possible hand you can draw because
she's already made some terrible rulings
on this case in the past during the
investigation and showed that she has
bias against Trump so we'll see where
that goes
um I'm sorry she has bias for Trump not
against Trump uh she has bias against
the government for bringing this case
um
so it was not a great not a great draw
um I think this you know arraignment was
fairly outrageous because you know I
want to just draw your attention to a
couple of other cases uh do you remember
Airman Jack Tashara who was arrested a
while back in Massachusetts he was a
young kid with the Air National
Guardsmen uh he he's the one who posted
classified documents about the word on
in Ukraine on social media and he also
sought to obstruct investigators he also
had a history of violent and racist
remarks and he is also a target for
hostile foreign power you know this is a
guy who worked on I.T for classified
computer systems and you know what he
also possessed the documents and only
showed them to a small group of people
to brag right just to kind of show off
look what I can get look what I can do
doesn't this sound familiar the entire
set of facts getting these documents and
bragging to a small group of people and
showing it to them then obstructing
investigators you know when they try to
retrieve this back and uh and and also
having a history of violent and racist
remarks well guess where Jack Tashara is
he is in jail why because he's dangerous
and he's a Flight Risk and this is a
serious case and so he's in jail
awaiting his trial also compare it to
Chelsea Manning Edward Snowden other
cases of of uh you know leaked documents
and you know it's just a very familiar
that anyone else who who does this is
considered a threat to National Security
but someone who who foments a violent
insurrection
who spews racist hateful uh violent
remarks and who recklessly and willfully
possesses and maintains and shows off
classified documents that are our most
secret materials
and who also has several criminal cases
that are either pending or under
investigation somehow he is released
with no conditions because he is once
again treated differently than everybody
else but not in the way he means he gets
away with everything that nobody else
does because he thinks he is above the
law and it is time now to hold him
accountable
thank you for joining I'm Karen Friedman
agnifolo from legal AF you can catch me
on Wednesdays with Michael popock at 8pm
Eastern Live on YouTube or wherever you
get your podcasts and you can also watch
legal AF on Saturdays with Ben Meiselas
and Michael popock also Saturdays at 8
pm Eastern
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:33 am
Trump SCREWS Himself with WORST Legal Defense Ever
by Michael Popock
MeidasTouch
Jun 17, 2023
Michael Popok of Legal AF breakdowns all 4 of Trump’s main defenses to the Mar a Lago criminal indictment and explains why they are all doomed to fail and will never be presented to any future jury.
Transcript
this is Michael popock legal AF every
day Donald Trump and his lawyers and his
lackeys try to float new defenses to the
criminal prosecution of Donald Trump
down in Miami on Mar-A-Lago there's four
major ones I've heard them all I've
looked at them all and I'm here to tell
you that they're all dead bang losers
let's go over them one at a time plus
new information I picked up concerning
Donald Trump's likely Witnesses against
him Evan Corcoran his former lawyer
let's start with Defense number one
you'll hear a lot about it it works in
rallies it works in Cuban cafes in Miami
it doesn't work in a court of law and
that is the presidential records act
allows Donald Trump to magically
designate what is personal records and
what is presidential records and he's a
very busy man he just didn't get around
to doing it and therefore the whole
search warrant uh subpoena process was
flawed and all of that should be in his
favor that's all a lie I mean let me
just call it out I know that on other
mainstream media channels they like to
pussyfoot around about calling something
what it is but not on the Midas touch
Network the presidential records Act is
not there's no good faith interpretation
of it or uh construction of it that fits
with Donald Trump's defense not one bit
of it the ACT says that everything that
goes to the operation of being the
president of the United States anything
that goes to being
the job function responsibilities
constitutional duties those are by their
very nature presidential records
therefore the people's documents and
need to be returned upon the end of the
office to have them properly archived by
the national and presidential archivist
as the presidential archive that's it
plain and simple any other argument that
you've heard about he's saved somehow or
the presidential record act will be a
defense and the jury will be so
instructed is a lie
presidential records act does not give
him a defense to the Espionage Act
violations the acts of obstruction the
acts of interference the acts of hiding
documents the acts of lying to his
lawyers the Department of Justice and
the FBI and ultimately to federal judges
that led to the ultimate execution of
the search warrant and even since the
execution of the search warrant
let's let's be clear Donald Trump has
had almost a year since the execution of
the search warrant to either work out a
deal with the Department of Justice go
back through his documents return the
presidential papers and beg for
forgiveness he hasn't done it he's never
done it that's why there was an
execution of a search warrant in August
of last year that's why he was indicted
last week for his own misconduct he
likes to say in his rallies this is a
sad day for democracy a sad day for
justice it isn't it shows the justice
system works and that if you commit
crimes you're not going to be given a
pass just because you were the former
president that's not how that works so
let's take off the board the
presidential records act defense because
everything that we're talking about
those hundreds and hundreds of National
Defense information documents some
marked top secret and classified go to
his constitutional and other duties as
president and needed to be returned full
stop period end of story
so now let's move on to the Espionage
Act the second defense you're going to
hear or have heard from Donald Trump at
rallies and after he left the
arraignment is that the Espionage Act
isn't being properly applied to him
because he's not a spy or
um you know he wasn't spying for another
country that is a complete
misrepresentation of the substance of
that statute yes it has a very sexy name
Espionage Act sounds like double agents
and triple agents and people wearing you
know uh uh all sorts of raincoats and
hats and okay but that's not what it
applies to it applies to anyone who with
with withholds willfully withholds
National Defense information material
that's it
it's not yours it is ndi National
Defense information you don't return it
you've just committed a violation of the
Espionage Act and whether you were going
to do it for transactional purposes
because you were going to trade it for
something with one of our allies or
enemies or you were just going to use it
for the future transactional use doesn't
matter that's not the Criminal Intent
that's required for the violation of the
Espionage Act it's only that you've
willfully meaning it wasn't accidental
that's what willful generally means in
the law intentional acts and everything
that's listed in the indictment and so
much more we haven't even heard about
yet when this case goes to trial in
terms of the evidence mountain of
evidence the Department of Justice Jack
Smith have indicates willfulness and
intent not accidental it wasn't The
Accidental Espionage violator Donald
Trump was the intentional and willful
Espionage Act Violator
if you take one thing away from the
indictment it's how involved personally
Donald Trump was in hiding and secreting
documents from the National Archive than
the FBI then the Department of Justice
then his own lawyers then federal judges
period
he selected what boxes would go back to
the National Archive personally after
reviewing them
he gave instructions to his lawyers
to not be truthful to the National
Archive to not be truthful to the FBI he
when when he wasn't sure if they would
do the right thing
Donald Trump made the decision which
boxes to put in the storage room in
Mar-A-Lago for his lawyer to look at a
week later and which ones to leave out
and then move boxes in and out of that
room after the lawyer had left under his
own video cameras before the Department
of Justice arrived
that was Donald Trump's decision making
it wasn't he had lackeys and buffers
reviewing the boxes he would have dozens
and dozens of boxes delivered through
Walt nowra and other people up to his
personal Residence at Mar-A-Lago where
he personally re viewed them period
that's your takeaway from the indictment
and everything I just talked about
instructing his lawyers to lie to the
National Archive instructing his lawyers
to lie about documents that existed but
he didn't want turned over making them
lie on forms that they had done their
due diligence to look for documents
hiding the documents moving the
documents moving them from Mar-A-Lago
within Mar-A-Lago moving them away from
his lawyer so he wouldn't see them
moving them to Bedminster those are all
badges of intent those are all
willfulness that is what the criminal
statute requires and nothing more
he is Reading in and telling his
gullible followers and those that want
to push back
and go after the Biden crime family talk
about projection that
um of the
um he didn't commit Espionage because
he's not a double agent he's not a spy
this isn't Boris and Natasha this isn't
Rocky and Bullwinkle
that's not what the statute says all you
have to do is you have to have them in
your possession and even if you don't
use them for any purpose the fact that
you have them in a box one box 15 boxes
20 boxes whether they're mixed in with
your personal dirty t-shirts and shoes
or whatever you're claiming or not
you've committed an act of uh to violate
the Espionage Act no different than you
know to Shara the national Guardsmen
intelligence officer who did the same
thing and is now in subject to 16 count
felony indictment for violations of the
Espionage Act
let's go to this take that off the board
that defense never gonna work
that'll that'll never get past motion
practice let alone be presented to a
jury because it's not a defense
you can't create new elements of a crime
and then say that they're not present
those are not the elements of the crime
and therefore that's not a defense to
the crime the third is selective
prosecution oh he whines at length about
selective prosecution and all of his his
surrogates do too whether they're a Lena
Haba or or Stephen Chung whoever that is
who tweets out things or sends things to
social media selective prosecution what
about ISM this is the what about ISM
defense what about Hillary's server
what about Joe Biden's Garage in the
Corvette what about Pence everybody's
doing it everybody's committing
violations of the Espionage Act it's my
artist rendering of the whiny defense
which we'll never see the light of day
in a courtroom and will never be
presented to a jury but I guess it makes
good good media makes good sound bites
for the day and allows him to collect
tens of millions of dollars from his
gullible followers but that's not a
defense first of all it's not a defense
even if the federal government only
prosecuted him because of his own bad
acts and never prosecuted anybody else
that doesn't give you selective
prosecution under the law that's one
secondly
there was a selective prosecution the
fact this is like comparing comparing
him to Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden is
like comparing apples to bowling balls
and chainsaws this isn't even this isn't
even Apple to other fruit this is Apple
does something else entirely different
Hillary Clinton didn't hide her server
they did she didn't say Well they're
coming to Chappaqua to take the server
from the basement let me go Send It On A
Plane down to Little Rock and put it in
my mother-in-law's trailer I mean that's
not what happened okay
as soon as it came it came I became
known that she was using her personal
email account and had a personal server
maintained by an I.T guy in her basement
while she was Secretary of State she
turned it over
right sure a couple of emails got Lost
in Translation but she didn't hide it
she didn't obfuscate she had an obstruct
she didn't lie to the federal government
the federal agents the FBI the
Department of Justice her own lawyers
people on her staff federal judges
she didn't do that so how is that
comparable
that's like comparing somebody that's
guilty of vehicular manslaughter to
somebody else that's guilty at best at
attempted jaywalking
yes it involves streets and cars but
that's all they have in common
and so take that off the board Joe Biden
having old documents that he didn't even
know he had that were locked in closets
that were with the the University of
Delaware for a Future Foundation of his
or in a or in a garage who cares
you have to have willfulness to commit a
crime this is not a regulatory
administrative violation Mr Trump and
your lawyers
this isn't a slap on the wrist this is a
crime and in this country under our
judicial system and our LA and our
system of jurisprudence there has to be
Criminal Intent we call it men's rare
willful mind
where is the willful mine for Joe Biden
where's the willfulness the willful in
Criminal Intent for Hillary Clinton but
it's all over the indictment and the
facts that have been developed by the
Department of Justice against Joe Biden
I mean see you now you got me doing it
against Donald Trump sorry sorry
followers and listeners but you knew
where that was going
so missing willfulness you don't have a
crime
plain and simple first day law school
criminal law 101. must show men's Raya
and that's the difference between civil
law and criminal law is the lack of mens
rea willfulness Criminal Intent all over
Trump missing from Pence Biden Clinton
period full stop we're done no further
comparison take it off the board now
let's go to their attempts to suppress
evidence of course they don't like the
thousands of documents dozens of boxes
and top secret and classified
information that was obtained in the
search warrant so they're going to try
with judge Cannon whoever the judge is
going to be to suppress the evidence
claiming that it was somehow an improper
search warrant
now they can attack the foundation of
the search warrant and try to argue that
the affidavits and support of it were
invalid
and therefore the Magistrate Judge never
should have issued the search warrant
search warrant should never have been
executed documents should never have
been taken out of Mar-A-Lago suppress
suppress suppress
in the law we call that the fruit from
The Poisoned tree the fruit from the
poisonous tree you can't eat the fruit
of a poisonous tree so if the process
was tainted you can't use the results of
that process that's the general
the general approach
but that doesn't apply here
that Magistrate Judge Reinhardt in
listening to the evidence that was
presented had probable cause to issue
that search warrant and they were right
he was moving the documents in and out
of Mar-A-Lago within Mar-A-Lago and
hiding them and getting dozens of people
to help him do that
and that ladies and gentlemen is
probable cause that the documents are
not going to be properly maintained or
retained in order to use just a regular
old-fashioned subpoena process that we
got to go in and knock down the door and
go grab the boxes
so he's not going to win suppression on
the Mar-A-Lago the Mar-A-Lago execution
of the search warrant which was based
primarily on witness testimony that was
obtained by the Department of Justice
they're also going to try to attack Evan
Corcoran who they they oh my God if I
could think of a witness that they fear
more than Evan Corcoran I can't think of
it Evan Corcoran is not just the former
lawyer but put a pin on that I want to
talk about something on this attic I'm
not sure he's still the he's the former
lawyer for Donald Trump anymore but it
was announced that he resigned that he
at one point was a target of the
criminal investigation because he ended
up lying to the Department of Justice
and the FBI about having done a search
which the video timer shows his entire
search of dozens of boxes behind a
locked door
lasted less than an hour it was like 47
minutes and came out with you know his
his um his 34 pages of documents that he
said were classified needed to be
returned ignoring the hundreds more next
door in the office desk drawer
Donald Trump's own personal living
quarters and all that
a federal judge chief judge of the
Circuit Court in District of Columbia
that oversees all things grand jury
already found based on the evidence that
there was more likely than not that
Donald Trump with Evan corcoran's help
committed a crime or fraud about those
documents
and use the crime fraud exception to the
general attorney-client privilege to
strip the attorney-client privilege away
from Donald Trump because the client
holds the privilege and forced the
lawyer to testify not just testify turn
over 50 pages of single space notes that
he took about Donald Trump and the
instructions he gave Donald Trump and
the information Donald Trump
communicated back to him and an audio
tape that the lawyer Evan Corcoran
recorded as his own private musings
about the case all went to the
prosecutor of course they hate that it's
not just used as evidence to get the
indictment it's Evan Corcoran coming
through the courthouse steps to up the
courthouse steps and through the back
wooden door to take the stand
when the government says our first
witness your honor we call M Evan
Corcoran
that's my artist rendering of the
reaction
it's gonna be like that because he's
going to have to testify about all of
those attorney clients deep dark secret
relationship and Communications with
Donald Trump
to commit crimes about the Mar-A-Lago
documents
so they're really worried about that on
the Trump side so they're going to file
a motion with judge Cannon or whoever
it's going to be
and try to suppress
Evan Corcoran from ever testifying any
of his evidence
and I have a high degree of confidence
based on knowing judge Beryl Howell the
chief judge of the District of Columbia
who heard all the evidence that she got
it right
she got it right related to that ruling
that there was a crime fraud exception
that applied stripping it from Donald
Trump now the judges in the southern
district of Florida don't have to listen
it's not dispositive when judges in
another place even Chief Judges in
another place in this case the District
of Columbia make a ruling about an issue
it's persuasive
the Appellate Court the 11th circuit and
the Supreme Court will certainly find it
persuasive but at the end of the day the
trial judge sitting in southern district
of Florida
her boss is not Barrel Howell sitting in
the District of Columbia her boss is the
11th circuit and ultimately the U.S
Supreme Court so she could say well uh
you know Barrel Barrel House screwed up
here and that should never have been
allowed and I don't find that it was a
proper
um uh attorney-client uh privilege
stripping uh by them and therefore I'm
going to suppress I'm going to exclude
all things Evan Corcoran look first it's
got that motion is going to come we're
going to follow it here only on the
Midas touch Network where I do my hot
takes at the intersection of Law and
politics
I predict that's going to lose if it
doesn't lose in front of uh Canon it'll
lose at the 11th circuit and ultimately
the U.S Supreme Court could delay things
in the trial some of these things are
going to lead to potential delay in the
trial pushing it into early 2024 or
mid-2024 but that's his last hope that
he's Trump is able to suppress the
Mar-A-Lago search warrant results
I think that's a dead-on arrival loser
based on the evidence that I know about
and try to suppress Evan Corcoran and
knowing judge Beryl Howell and how
careful she is I believe she got that
role that law right she's applying it
right to the facts and again if Canon
screws it up the 11th circuit won't
which is her boss is sitting in Atlanta
and then we go on to the U.S Supreme
Court that's the big four defenses
you're going to hear over and over ad
nauseum from Donald Trump I'm almost
fatigued talking about them and it's
only been a week but that's what you're
going to hear everybody Trot out and
when you're debating or discussing these
things with friends and family some of
which who may sit on a different
political side of the spectrum than you
those these are going to be their
talking points selective prosecution uh
suppression Mar-A-Lago search war was
not properly done Evan Corcoran should
never testified against Donald Trump uh
he wasn't a spy so no Espionage Act uh
he gets to magically create things into
personal papers that were National
Defense information so no Espionage Act
no obstruction no that I mean I I mean
he's just going to die the death of a
thousand paper cuts how many of these
things can he explain away in front of a
jury most of these defenses if not all
of them will never see the inside of a
courtroom
to get to a jury because they'll be
destroyed before that by the Department
of Justice and proper appellate rulings
we'll follow him here on the Midas touch
Network as that's where I do my work at
the intersection of Law and politics I'm
a practicing lawyer for more than 30
years including in the southern district
of Florida where I practice for over 20
years I've been before the judges were
talking about I know how these cases are
going to turn out based on my own
personal experience and my own judgment
and that's what I bring to you in these
kind of hot ticks if you like what I'm
doing in a hot take like this one give
me a thumbs up it helps it helps with
the quality and quantity of what we
provide every day on the Midas touch
Network we curate the best of these
analyzes we bring it to you on
Wednesdays and Saturdays on a podcast
called Legal AF on the Midas touch
network if you like what I'm doing I'm
Michael popock you can follow me on all
things social media at Ms this is
Michael popock legal AF reporting
foreign
by Michael Popock
MeidasTouch
Jun 17, 2023
Michael Popok of Legal AF breakdowns all 4 of Trump’s main defenses to the Mar a Lago criminal indictment and explains why they are all doomed to fail and will never be presented to any future jury.
Transcript
this is Michael popock legal AF every
day Donald Trump and his lawyers and his
lackeys try to float new defenses to the
criminal prosecution of Donald Trump
down in Miami on Mar-A-Lago there's four
major ones I've heard them all I've
looked at them all and I'm here to tell
you that they're all dead bang losers
let's go over them one at a time plus
new information I picked up concerning
Donald Trump's likely Witnesses against
him Evan Corcoran his former lawyer
let's start with Defense number one
you'll hear a lot about it it works in
rallies it works in Cuban cafes in Miami
it doesn't work in a court of law and
that is the presidential records act
allows Donald Trump to magically
designate what is personal records and
what is presidential records and he's a
very busy man he just didn't get around
to doing it and therefore the whole
search warrant uh subpoena process was
flawed and all of that should be in his
favor that's all a lie I mean let me
just call it out I know that on other
mainstream media channels they like to
pussyfoot around about calling something
what it is but not on the Midas touch
Network the presidential records Act is
not there's no good faith interpretation
of it or uh construction of it that fits
with Donald Trump's defense not one bit
of it the ACT says that everything that
goes to the operation of being the
president of the United States anything
that goes to being
the job function responsibilities
constitutional duties those are by their
very nature presidential records
therefore the people's documents and
need to be returned upon the end of the
office to have them properly archived by
the national and presidential archivist
as the presidential archive that's it
plain and simple any other argument that
you've heard about he's saved somehow or
the presidential record act will be a
defense and the jury will be so
instructed is a lie
presidential records act does not give
him a defense to the Espionage Act
violations the acts of obstruction the
acts of interference the acts of hiding
documents the acts of lying to his
lawyers the Department of Justice and
the FBI and ultimately to federal judges
that led to the ultimate execution of
the search warrant and even since the
execution of the search warrant
let's let's be clear Donald Trump has
had almost a year since the execution of
the search warrant to either work out a
deal with the Department of Justice go
back through his documents return the
presidential papers and beg for
forgiveness he hasn't done it he's never
done it that's why there was an
execution of a search warrant in August
of last year that's why he was indicted
last week for his own misconduct he
likes to say in his rallies this is a
sad day for democracy a sad day for
justice it isn't it shows the justice
system works and that if you commit
crimes you're not going to be given a
pass just because you were the former
president that's not how that works so
let's take off the board the
presidential records act defense because
everything that we're talking about
those hundreds and hundreds of National
Defense information documents some
marked top secret and classified go to
his constitutional and other duties as
president and needed to be returned full
stop period end of story
so now let's move on to the Espionage
Act the second defense you're going to
hear or have heard from Donald Trump at
rallies and after he left the
arraignment is that the Espionage Act
isn't being properly applied to him
because he's not a spy or
um you know he wasn't spying for another
country that is a complete
misrepresentation of the substance of
that statute yes it has a very sexy name
Espionage Act sounds like double agents
and triple agents and people wearing you
know uh uh all sorts of raincoats and
hats and okay but that's not what it
applies to it applies to anyone who with
with withholds willfully withholds
National Defense information material
that's it
it's not yours it is ndi National
Defense information you don't return it
you've just committed a violation of the
Espionage Act and whether you were going
to do it for transactional purposes
because you were going to trade it for
something with one of our allies or
enemies or you were just going to use it
for the future transactional use doesn't
matter that's not the Criminal Intent
that's required for the violation of the
Espionage Act it's only that you've
willfully meaning it wasn't accidental
that's what willful generally means in
the law intentional acts and everything
that's listed in the indictment and so
much more we haven't even heard about
yet when this case goes to trial in
terms of the evidence mountain of
evidence the Department of Justice Jack
Smith have indicates willfulness and
intent not accidental it wasn't The
Accidental Espionage violator Donald
Trump was the intentional and willful
Espionage Act Violator
if you take one thing away from the
indictment it's how involved personally
Donald Trump was in hiding and secreting
documents from the National Archive than
the FBI then the Department of Justice
then his own lawyers then federal judges
period
he selected what boxes would go back to
the National Archive personally after
reviewing them
he gave instructions to his lawyers
to not be truthful to the National
Archive to not be truthful to the FBI he
when when he wasn't sure if they would
do the right thing
Donald Trump made the decision which
boxes to put in the storage room in
Mar-A-Lago for his lawyer to look at a
week later and which ones to leave out
and then move boxes in and out of that
room after the lawyer had left under his
own video cameras before the Department
of Justice arrived
that was Donald Trump's decision making
it wasn't he had lackeys and buffers
reviewing the boxes he would have dozens
and dozens of boxes delivered through
Walt nowra and other people up to his
personal Residence at Mar-A-Lago where
he personally re viewed them period
that's your takeaway from the indictment
and everything I just talked about
instructing his lawyers to lie to the
National Archive instructing his lawyers
to lie about documents that existed but
he didn't want turned over making them
lie on forms that they had done their
due diligence to look for documents
hiding the documents moving the
documents moving them from Mar-A-Lago
within Mar-A-Lago moving them away from
his lawyer so he wouldn't see them
moving them to Bedminster those are all
badges of intent those are all
willfulness that is what the criminal
statute requires and nothing more
he is Reading in and telling his
gullible followers and those that want
to push back
and go after the Biden crime family talk
about projection that
um of the
um he didn't commit Espionage because
he's not a double agent he's not a spy
this isn't Boris and Natasha this isn't
Rocky and Bullwinkle
that's not what the statute says all you
have to do is you have to have them in
your possession and even if you don't
use them for any purpose the fact that
you have them in a box one box 15 boxes
20 boxes whether they're mixed in with
your personal dirty t-shirts and shoes
or whatever you're claiming or not
you've committed an act of uh to violate
the Espionage Act no different than you
know to Shara the national Guardsmen
intelligence officer who did the same
thing and is now in subject to 16 count
felony indictment for violations of the
Espionage Act
let's go to this take that off the board
that defense never gonna work
that'll that'll never get past motion
practice let alone be presented to a
jury because it's not a defense
you can't create new elements of a crime
and then say that they're not present
those are not the elements of the crime
and therefore that's not a defense to
the crime the third is selective
prosecution oh he whines at length about
selective prosecution and all of his his
surrogates do too whether they're a Lena
Haba or or Stephen Chung whoever that is
who tweets out things or sends things to
social media selective prosecution what
about ISM this is the what about ISM
defense what about Hillary's server
what about Joe Biden's Garage in the
Corvette what about Pence everybody's
doing it everybody's committing
violations of the Espionage Act it's my
artist rendering of the whiny defense
which we'll never see the light of day
in a courtroom and will never be
presented to a jury but I guess it makes
good good media makes good sound bites
for the day and allows him to collect
tens of millions of dollars from his
gullible followers but that's not a
defense first of all it's not a defense
even if the federal government only
prosecuted him because of his own bad
acts and never prosecuted anybody else
that doesn't give you selective
prosecution under the law that's one
secondly
there was a selective prosecution the
fact this is like comparing comparing
him to Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden is
like comparing apples to bowling balls
and chainsaws this isn't even this isn't
even Apple to other fruit this is Apple
does something else entirely different
Hillary Clinton didn't hide her server
they did she didn't say Well they're
coming to Chappaqua to take the server
from the basement let me go Send It On A
Plane down to Little Rock and put it in
my mother-in-law's trailer I mean that's
not what happened okay
as soon as it came it came I became
known that she was using her personal
email account and had a personal server
maintained by an I.T guy in her basement
while she was Secretary of State she
turned it over
right sure a couple of emails got Lost
in Translation but she didn't hide it
she didn't obfuscate she had an obstruct
she didn't lie to the federal government
the federal agents the FBI the
Department of Justice her own lawyers
people on her staff federal judges
she didn't do that so how is that
comparable
that's like comparing somebody that's
guilty of vehicular manslaughter to
somebody else that's guilty at best at
attempted jaywalking
yes it involves streets and cars but
that's all they have in common
and so take that off the board Joe Biden
having old documents that he didn't even
know he had that were locked in closets
that were with the the University of
Delaware for a Future Foundation of his
or in a or in a garage who cares
you have to have willfulness to commit a
crime this is not a regulatory
administrative violation Mr Trump and
your lawyers
this isn't a slap on the wrist this is a
crime and in this country under our
judicial system and our LA and our
system of jurisprudence there has to be
Criminal Intent we call it men's rare
willful mind
where is the willful mine for Joe Biden
where's the willfulness the willful in
Criminal Intent for Hillary Clinton but
it's all over the indictment and the
facts that have been developed by the
Department of Justice against Joe Biden
I mean see you now you got me doing it
against Donald Trump sorry sorry
followers and listeners but you knew
where that was going
so missing willfulness you don't have a
crime
plain and simple first day law school
criminal law 101. must show men's Raya
and that's the difference between civil
law and criminal law is the lack of mens
rea willfulness Criminal Intent all over
Trump missing from Pence Biden Clinton
period full stop we're done no further
comparison take it off the board now
let's go to their attempts to suppress
evidence of course they don't like the
thousands of documents dozens of boxes
and top secret and classified
information that was obtained in the
search warrant so they're going to try
with judge Cannon whoever the judge is
going to be to suppress the evidence
claiming that it was somehow an improper
search warrant
now they can attack the foundation of
the search warrant and try to argue that
the affidavits and support of it were
invalid
and therefore the Magistrate Judge never
should have issued the search warrant
search warrant should never have been
executed documents should never have
been taken out of Mar-A-Lago suppress
suppress suppress
in the law we call that the fruit from
The Poisoned tree the fruit from the
poisonous tree you can't eat the fruit
of a poisonous tree so if the process
was tainted you can't use the results of
that process that's the general
the general approach
but that doesn't apply here
that Magistrate Judge Reinhardt in
listening to the evidence that was
presented had probable cause to issue
that search warrant and they were right
he was moving the documents in and out
of Mar-A-Lago within Mar-A-Lago and
hiding them and getting dozens of people
to help him do that
and that ladies and gentlemen is
probable cause that the documents are
not going to be properly maintained or
retained in order to use just a regular
old-fashioned subpoena process that we
got to go in and knock down the door and
go grab the boxes
so he's not going to win suppression on
the Mar-A-Lago the Mar-A-Lago execution
of the search warrant which was based
primarily on witness testimony that was
obtained by the Department of Justice
they're also going to try to attack Evan
Corcoran who they they oh my God if I
could think of a witness that they fear
more than Evan Corcoran I can't think of
it Evan Corcoran is not just the former
lawyer but put a pin on that I want to
talk about something on this attic I'm
not sure he's still the he's the former
lawyer for Donald Trump anymore but it
was announced that he resigned that he
at one point was a target of the
criminal investigation because he ended
up lying to the Department of Justice
and the FBI about having done a search
which the video timer shows his entire
search of dozens of boxes behind a
locked door
lasted less than an hour it was like 47
minutes and came out with you know his
his um his 34 pages of documents that he
said were classified needed to be
returned ignoring the hundreds more next
door in the office desk drawer
Donald Trump's own personal living
quarters and all that
a federal judge chief judge of the
Circuit Court in District of Columbia
that oversees all things grand jury
already found based on the evidence that
there was more likely than not that
Donald Trump with Evan corcoran's help
committed a crime or fraud about those
documents
and use the crime fraud exception to the
general attorney-client privilege to
strip the attorney-client privilege away
from Donald Trump because the client
holds the privilege and forced the
lawyer to testify not just testify turn
over 50 pages of single space notes that
he took about Donald Trump and the
instructions he gave Donald Trump and
the information Donald Trump
communicated back to him and an audio
tape that the lawyer Evan Corcoran
recorded as his own private musings
about the case all went to the
prosecutor of course they hate that it's
not just used as evidence to get the
indictment it's Evan Corcoran coming
through the courthouse steps to up the
courthouse steps and through the back
wooden door to take the stand
when the government says our first
witness your honor we call M Evan
Corcoran
that's my artist rendering of the
reaction
it's gonna be like that because he's
going to have to testify about all of
those attorney clients deep dark secret
relationship and Communications with
Donald Trump
to commit crimes about the Mar-A-Lago
documents
so they're really worried about that on
the Trump side so they're going to file
a motion with judge Cannon or whoever
it's going to be
and try to suppress
Evan Corcoran from ever testifying any
of his evidence
and I have a high degree of confidence
based on knowing judge Beryl Howell the
chief judge of the District of Columbia
who heard all the evidence that she got
it right
she got it right related to that ruling
that there was a crime fraud exception
that applied stripping it from Donald
Trump now the judges in the southern
district of Florida don't have to listen
it's not dispositive when judges in
another place even Chief Judges in
another place in this case the District
of Columbia make a ruling about an issue
it's persuasive
the Appellate Court the 11th circuit and
the Supreme Court will certainly find it
persuasive but at the end of the day the
trial judge sitting in southern district
of Florida
her boss is not Barrel Howell sitting in
the District of Columbia her boss is the
11th circuit and ultimately the U.S
Supreme Court so she could say well uh
you know Barrel Barrel House screwed up
here and that should never have been
allowed and I don't find that it was a
proper
um uh attorney-client uh privilege
stripping uh by them and therefore I'm
going to suppress I'm going to exclude
all things Evan Corcoran look first it's
got that motion is going to come we're
going to follow it here only on the
Midas touch Network where I do my hot
takes at the intersection of Law and
politics
I predict that's going to lose if it
doesn't lose in front of uh Canon it'll
lose at the 11th circuit and ultimately
the U.S Supreme Court could delay things
in the trial some of these things are
going to lead to potential delay in the
trial pushing it into early 2024 or
mid-2024 but that's his last hope that
he's Trump is able to suppress the
Mar-A-Lago search warrant results
I think that's a dead-on arrival loser
based on the evidence that I know about
and try to suppress Evan Corcoran and
knowing judge Beryl Howell and how
careful she is I believe she got that
role that law right she's applying it
right to the facts and again if Canon
screws it up the 11th circuit won't
which is her boss is sitting in Atlanta
and then we go on to the U.S Supreme
Court that's the big four defenses
you're going to hear over and over ad
nauseum from Donald Trump I'm almost
fatigued talking about them and it's
only been a week but that's what you're
going to hear everybody Trot out and
when you're debating or discussing these
things with friends and family some of
which who may sit on a different
political side of the spectrum than you
those these are going to be their
talking points selective prosecution uh
suppression Mar-A-Lago search war was
not properly done Evan Corcoran should
never testified against Donald Trump uh
he wasn't a spy so no Espionage Act uh
he gets to magically create things into
personal papers that were National
Defense information so no Espionage Act
no obstruction no that I mean I I mean
he's just going to die the death of a
thousand paper cuts how many of these
things can he explain away in front of a
jury most of these defenses if not all
of them will never see the inside of a
courtroom
to get to a jury because they'll be
destroyed before that by the Department
of Justice and proper appellate rulings
we'll follow him here on the Midas touch
Network as that's where I do my work at
the intersection of Law and politics I'm
a practicing lawyer for more than 30
years including in the southern district
of Florida where I practice for over 20
years I've been before the judges were
talking about I know how these cases are
going to turn out based on my own
personal experience and my own judgment
and that's what I bring to you in these
kind of hot ticks if you like what I'm
doing in a hot take like this one give
me a thumbs up it helps it helps with
the quality and quantity of what we
provide every day on the Midas touch
Network we curate the best of these
analyzes we bring it to you on
Wednesdays and Saturdays on a podcast
called Legal AF on the Midas touch
network if you like what I'm doing I'm
Michael popock you can follow me on all
things social media at Ms this is
Michael popock legal AF reporting
foreign
- admin
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Sun Jun 18, 2023 5:49 am
Sarah Palin accidentally makes SHOCKING admission about Trump Supporters on live TV
by Texas Paul
MeidasTouch
Jun 17, 2023
Sarah Palin gave her thoughts on whether or not MAGA is a cult, and well, you have to hear her answer to believe it. Texas Paul reacts.
Transcript
I was with the Trump motorcade yesterday
and I would say that the people at
Versailles at the Cuban restaurant I
wouldn't call them cult members would
you
uh no well folks Sarah Palin's back yep
that's right old sister Sarah the the
pray for me so the witches don't get me
Palin is back
and she's lecturing us on all things of
of all things on
is Maga a cult she appeared on Newsmax
and and gave this response when they
asked her is Maga a cult take it take a
look I was with the Trump motorcade
yesterday and I would say that the
people at Versailles at the Cuban
restaurant I wouldn't call them cult
members would you
uh no you know the definition of a cult
is a group of people who are excessively
supporting what another and a cause all
about Conformity and compliance and
intolerance of anyone who doesn't agree
with what their mission is okay that's
the definition of what the left is
engaged in right now speaking of Colts
all about Conformity and compliance and
heaven forbid you don't agree with them
yeah and you know I I've got a little
bit better of a better answer than that
let's take a little trip down memory
lane folks let's just let's just think
about the way elections used to be
you know we'd come to an election and
everybody put a sign out little sign out
in their yard yeah maybe you put a a big
sign out in your yard if you were really
enthusiastic
and then we'd have that election you
know you might put a bumper sticker on
your car then the election would be over
and then people take those signs down
you know they scrape that bumper sticker
off their car and keep on keeping on
well not anymore not since the cult of
Maga
no it's a year-round ordeal all the time
you know folks used to put American
flags on the front of their house
but now they're hanging Trump Flags
all the time
and then it got worse than that folks
they started Plastering their houses
I mean their their houses you know
there's just one up in Youngstown
Pennsylvania and it's not just that one
they're they're all over the country
where people are now wrapping their
houses
with Trump branded flags and and whatnot
and this one house in Youngstown
Pennsylvania has a 15-foot Effigy of
trump in spotlights
yeah I mean that's a cult folks that's a
CO if you don't think that's a call here
take a look at Marjorie Trader green
with this Effigy Of Trump and see what
she does here there we go
but it's amazing yeah that that's right
folks yeah you've got a sitting member
of Congress
fondling a cardboard cutout over cult
leader
yeah I mean that's a cult folks that's a
and if that's not enough for you they
built a golden statue of him
and put it on display at CPAC if you
don't know what CPAC is it's a con it's
the conservative political action
conference it's the big
Republican conservative get together
every year
they put a golden Trump out there people
were praying to it taking pictures with
it
you know I mean just you know just
touching it you know I mean it it's a
cult folks it's a cult
you know your crazy uncle went out and
bought 100
cartoons digital cartoons
of trump
well I'm not kidding I'm not kidding 100
bucks they went out and bought Trump
bucks
have you ever heard of Biden bucks no no
we don't do that we're not in a cult
there are people that went out and
bought fake Trump money
I'm not kidding and it gets worse than
that you need to keep an eye on your
crazy uncle your crazy pop we've all got
one in the family we all do
you know you got people that put second
mortgages on their houses
yeah he ended up getting divorced and
stuff like that yeah that really
happened folks
it's a cult
and then the rallies
these aren't stump speeches
you know we used to have you know
election time
politicians we'd have to see them then
they'd come out and they'd do they would
do speeches then oh no this cult does
them year round every year election or
not
and what's crazy is to show you how
insane this cult is these people
travel around to the to the rallies it
said I said same people showing up at
all to hear the same stupid speeches
that's a cult folks
that is a cult
it's why they can't understand they lost
it's why they were susceptible to their
cult leader telling them to go desecrate
our capital
and try to overturn the results of an
election they were offered
zero proof
that they that anything was wrong with
they just lost
they were just lost but they were told
by their cult leader
that it was stolen from them so they
desecrated their own capital and tried
to overthrow their own democracy
and he gave them no proof none
whatsoever
and they did it anyways that's a cult
that's a cult
and it's getting worse and worse and
worse folks it's not getting better you
know it started out with somebody hung
hanging a trump flag on the front of
their house now they're desecrating
Flags now they're hanging the American
flag upside down
and desecrating our American flag
and it's you know folks where does it
end
you know people make a joke they make a
joke about the people's temple in Jim
Jones
and how much Maga is like them
the people's simple if you don't know
that was Jim Jones's cult
and you know those people got together
and they mixed up a bunch of poison
Kool-Aid and they drank it and died for
Jim Jones
and and the joke is that the only
difference between the magical and the
Jim Jones cult
is Trump would have branded the Kool-Aid
and sold it to him for eight bucks to
pop
[Music]
I Tell You Folks it's getting it's
getting bad
you know Caribou Barbie here
you know in her response she just
perfectly describes Maga
watch out for your people
watch out for your people it's getting
worse
it's getting worse
one of the things you can do about it
show your people these videos
hit the Subscribe button so that you can
see them when they come out it doesn't
cost you anything
doesn't tangle you up in any way just
hit the Subscribe button it'll let you
know when a new video comes out when you
log on to to this platform
you hit the thumbs up thumbs up button
it'll it'll it'll get this video
circulated around and if you really want
to help out you're about to be see a
commercial from the Midas touch Network
folks the Midas touch network is working
their butts off they are the fastest
growing independent news source in the
country
and they are working their butts off to
make sure that you're crazy people that
are involved in these cult
actually have
information coming back at them they're
not allowed to just stay in their bubble
we get this information out to people
like no one else
so if you can support us great
I love you folks as old Texas Paul out
y'all have a wonderful day
by Texas Paul
MeidasTouch
Jun 17, 2023
Sarah Palin gave her thoughts on whether or not MAGA is a cult, and well, you have to hear her answer to believe it. Texas Paul reacts.
Transcript
I was with the Trump motorcade yesterday
and I would say that the people at
Versailles at the Cuban restaurant I
wouldn't call them cult members would
you
uh no well folks Sarah Palin's back yep
that's right old sister Sarah the the
pray for me so the witches don't get me
Palin is back
and she's lecturing us on all things of
of all things on
is Maga a cult she appeared on Newsmax
and and gave this response when they
asked her is Maga a cult take it take a
look I was with the Trump motorcade
yesterday and I would say that the
people at Versailles at the Cuban
restaurant I wouldn't call them cult
members would you
uh no you know the definition of a cult
is a group of people who are excessively
supporting what another and a cause all
about Conformity and compliance and
intolerance of anyone who doesn't agree
with what their mission is okay that's
the definition of what the left is
engaged in right now speaking of Colts
all about Conformity and compliance and
heaven forbid you don't agree with them
yeah and you know I I've got a little
bit better of a better answer than that
let's take a little trip down memory
lane folks let's just let's just think
about the way elections used to be
you know we'd come to an election and
everybody put a sign out little sign out
in their yard yeah maybe you put a a big
sign out in your yard if you were really
enthusiastic
and then we'd have that election you
know you might put a bumper sticker on
your car then the election would be over
and then people take those signs down
you know they scrape that bumper sticker
off their car and keep on keeping on
well not anymore not since the cult of
Maga
no it's a year-round ordeal all the time
you know folks used to put American
flags on the front of their house
but now they're hanging Trump Flags
all the time
and then it got worse than that folks
they started Plastering their houses
I mean their their houses you know
there's just one up in Youngstown
Pennsylvania and it's not just that one
they're they're all over the country
where people are now wrapping their
houses
with Trump branded flags and and whatnot
and this one house in Youngstown
Pennsylvania has a 15-foot Effigy of
trump in spotlights
yeah I mean that's a cult folks that's a
CO if you don't think that's a call here
take a look at Marjorie Trader green
with this Effigy Of Trump and see what
she does here there we go
but it's amazing yeah that that's right
folks yeah you've got a sitting member
of Congress
fondling a cardboard cutout over cult
leader
yeah I mean that's a cult folks that's a
and if that's not enough for you they
built a golden statue of him
and put it on display at CPAC if you
don't know what CPAC is it's a con it's
the conservative political action
conference it's the big
Republican conservative get together
every year
they put a golden Trump out there people
were praying to it taking pictures with
it
you know I mean just you know just
touching it you know I mean it it's a
cult folks it's a cult
you know your crazy uncle went out and
bought 100
cartoons digital cartoons
of trump
well I'm not kidding I'm not kidding 100
bucks they went out and bought Trump
bucks
have you ever heard of Biden bucks no no
we don't do that we're not in a cult
there are people that went out and
bought fake Trump money
I'm not kidding and it gets worse than
that you need to keep an eye on your
crazy uncle your crazy pop we've all got
one in the family we all do
you know you got people that put second
mortgages on their houses
yeah he ended up getting divorced and
stuff like that yeah that really
happened folks
it's a cult
and then the rallies
these aren't stump speeches
you know we used to have you know
election time
politicians we'd have to see them then
they'd come out and they'd do they would
do speeches then oh no this cult does
them year round every year election or
not
and what's crazy is to show you how
insane this cult is these people
travel around to the to the rallies it
said I said same people showing up at
all to hear the same stupid speeches
that's a cult folks
that is a cult
it's why they can't understand they lost
it's why they were susceptible to their
cult leader telling them to go desecrate
our capital
and try to overturn the results of an
election they were offered
zero proof
that they that anything was wrong with
they just lost
they were just lost but they were told
by their cult leader
that it was stolen from them so they
desecrated their own capital and tried
to overthrow their own democracy
and he gave them no proof none
whatsoever
and they did it anyways that's a cult
that's a cult
and it's getting worse and worse and
worse folks it's not getting better you
know it started out with somebody hung
hanging a trump flag on the front of
their house now they're desecrating
Flags now they're hanging the American
flag upside down
and desecrating our American flag
and it's you know folks where does it
end
you know people make a joke they make a
joke about the people's temple in Jim
Jones
and how much Maga is like them
the people's simple if you don't know
that was Jim Jones's cult
and you know those people got together
and they mixed up a bunch of poison
Kool-Aid and they drank it and died for
Jim Jones
and and the joke is that the only
difference between the magical and the
Jim Jones cult
is Trump would have branded the Kool-Aid
and sold it to him for eight bucks to
pop
[Music]
I Tell You Folks it's getting it's
getting bad
you know Caribou Barbie here
you know in her response she just
perfectly describes Maga
watch out for your people
watch out for your people it's getting
worse
it's getting worse
one of the things you can do about it
show your people these videos
hit the Subscribe button so that you can
see them when they come out it doesn't
cost you anything
doesn't tangle you up in any way just
hit the Subscribe button it'll let you
know when a new video comes out when you
log on to to this platform
you hit the thumbs up thumbs up button
it'll it'll it'll get this video
circulated around and if you really want
to help out you're about to be see a
commercial from the Midas touch Network
folks the Midas touch network is working
their butts off they are the fastest
growing independent news source in the
country
and they are working their butts off to
make sure that you're crazy people that
are involved in these cult
actually have
information coming back at them they're
not allowed to just stay in their bubble
we get this information out to people
like no one else
so if you can support us great
I love you folks as old Texas Paul out
y'all have a wonderful day
- admin
- Site Admin
- Posts: 37523
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:21 am
Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:03 am
Trump’s CREEPIEST MOMENT with Ivanka EXPOSED in New Book
by Ben Meiselas
MeidasTouch Network
June 29, 2023
MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas reports on excerpts from the soon-to-be-released book ‘Blowback’ by former Trump staffer Miles Taylor who exposes a truly creepy moment involving Donald Trump and his daughter Ivanka Trump. Meiselas also discusses other horrific incidents discussed in the book.
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the MeidasTouch
Network Miles Taylor who served as the
former Chief of Staff of the United
States Department of Homeland Security
in the Trump Administration and then
left and called out the horrific
policies of the Trump Administration is
publishing a new book it's called
Blowback a warning to save democracy
from the next Trump also notable about
Miles Taylor
he authored the September 2018 New York
Times op-ed entitled I am part of the
resistance inside the Trump
Administration under the name Anonymous
we'll talk about that in a little bit
one of the excerpts from the book
blowback was released today and in it
this is what it says and this was Miles
Taylor's first-hand experience in
interacting with Donald Trump and
Trump's then Chief of Staff John Kelly
and it is very notable that Miles Taylor
worked under John Kelly so Miles Taylor
is close with John Kelly they are
witnesses to this here's what is said
and it is beyond beyond creepy and
disgusting but we all know this I think
about Donald Trump quote
aides said that Donald Trump talked about
Ivanka Trump's breasts, her backside, and
what it might be like to have sex with
her, remarks that once led former Chief
of Staff John Kelly to remind Donald
Trump that Ivanka was his daughter it
got to such a problematic point -- I mean
saying it once is problematic, but Trump
would talk about this all the time so
his chief of staff John Kelly had to
tell Donald Trump to stop it. by the way,
Donald Trump now despises his former
Chief of Staff John Kelly and says that John
Kelly was not qualified he's one of a
number of people who Donald Trump hired
who Donald Trump now disparages
this story about how Donald Trump
disgustingly would talk about his own
daughter Ivanka reminds me of a video
that we made here on the MeidasTouch
Network during the 2020 elections that
went megaviral and we even bought a
spot on Fox with this ad I believe uh
let me play this video right now it's
called creepy Trump and it is a video in
the early stages of MeidasTouch that we
created here play this clip a lot of
really creepy
statements that he's made in the
past that make me very uncomfortable
certainly as a mother, but also as a person
who breathes air you're going up the
escalator? yeah I'm going to be dating
her in 10 years. really creepy
statements if Ivanka weren't my daughter perhaps
I'd be dating her
[laughter]
You're so weird!
Stop what you are saying!
[Music]
it makes me very uncomfortable that he would look at certain other americans
the way he apparently has in the past
what does Tiffany have of mom's?
[tiffany trump in 1994, 1-yr-old]
getting Marla's legs
she's got, at this point, nipple [inaudible]
what's the
favorite thing you have in common with
your father either real estate or golf
Donald with your daughter well I was
going to say sex but I can't relate that
he's definitely not a typical father
CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY
VOTE HIM OUT
#CREEPY TRUMP
I mean beyond disgusting some other
excerpts from the book blowback will
blow your mind away although as MeidasTouch Network viewers I think we
intuitively know this about Donald Trump
but seeing these experiences talked
about is certainly uh in writing like
this is just demonstrates how
unqualified and how disgraceful Donald
Trump is this is from the book quote
I'll never forget an ex-trump Cabinet
member telling me that Donald Trump is
truly the most evil person that I have
ever met quote we cannot make this
mistake again the cabinet member told
Miles Taylor in responding to some of
the press about his book blowback and
regarding how Donald Trump was talking
about Ivanka constantly Miles Taylor
states
he's a very sick man he's unfit for any
office and somehow he's leading the GOP
field of course Miles Taylor former
Republican I mean to see what's happened
to the modern day Republican party look
Miles Taylor is a friend of the MeidasTouch Network we're going to have him on
in a little bit to talk about his book
blowback but
just you know someone like a Miles
Taylor is someone we could have a
conversation with me and Miles may
disagree on some issues but
fundamentally we support our democracy
here so uh
that's the way it should be we may have
differences in politics and policies
but
I think we both care I know we both care
about our democracy this is from Miles
Taylor as well he goes Trump's Chief of
Staff my former boss
estimated that one-third of Donald
Trump's ideas were flat-out illegal
America can't afford a repeat quote
among us friends let's be honest Donald
Trump's former Chief of Staff and Miles
Taylor's boss said quote about one third of
the things Donald Trump wants us to do
are flat out stupid another third would
be impossible to implement and wouldn't
even solve the problem and a third of
them would be flat out illegal so
one-third stupid one-third impossible
one-third flat out illegal
illegal
here is another part of the book uh the
book blowback talks about how Donald
Trump's top aide Stephen Miller who was
also giving Trump advice on immigration
advocated for using United States drones
in 2018
to blow up migrant boats full of unarmed
civilians
that is in the book as well
according to Miles Taylor this is how
Trump talked about America's neighbors
quote you know why we need this Trump
continued pointing to a photo of the
border wall on his desk that Mexico
never paid for and that Donald Trump
didn't complete and Donald Trump said
because Mexico is a hell hole have I
said that yet because it is it's a
hellhole and no one effing wants that
place
there's another excerpt right here where
Donald Trump wanted to wiretap his staff
as Miles Taylor said not the move of a
man who thinks the team that his team
loves him
he goes on to say how Donald Trump's
paranoia was causing him to unravel so
much so that he wanted to spy on his
immediate lieutenants he allegedly told
aides that he wanted to quote tap the
phones of the White House staff to find
out who was leaking damaging stories
about him to the media Chief of Staff
John Kelly quickly nixed the suggestion
knowing it would be illegal let me also
read here this is one of the things that
Miles Taylor posted he goes history
warns us to be wary of a leader who
pretends to be a quote man of the people
but detests working men and women 2)
acts like a deal maker but easily breaks
promises 3)
ignores experts but is said to be
seduced by himself during his own
speeches 4) calls for opponents to be
locked up but frets about getting
convicted himself 5) manipulates the
media for personal gain but attacks the
quote lying press as enemies 6) vows to
root out corruption but abuses official
powers 7) claims to have the best
lieutenants but surrounds himself with
sycophants 8) relishes supporters'
violence but keeps enough distance to
avoid charges of incitement 9) knows
small lies aren't believable but quote
big lies become gospel 10) builds his
cause around a pledge to make the
country great again while threatening
its very foundations Miles Taylor goes
on to say this is a description of Adolf
Hitler drawn from biographies of the man.
others have sought to follow in his
footsteps finally Miles Taylor
in his book also quotes former GOP
Congressman rep Riggleman who put It
best in an interview for the book
blowback that Republicans privately say
Trump is probably high on meth and yet
they still bow down to him
here is the passage from the book former
GOP Congressman Denver Riggleman who was
elected from Virginia in 2018
recalled that it felt like a hostage
situation on the house floor he was
expecting to support the Maga movement
or else quote as soon as I won I
realized what I'd gotten myself into he
shared with me quote I found that votes
had nothing to do with policy but with
complete loyalty to Donald Trump I just
found it amazing that the other
representatives were so subservient
while they privately mocked Trump as
quote probably being high on meth he
said at first Riggleman toed the party
line and campaigned as a trump supporter
but then ultimately changed his way
folks get get blowback Miles Taylor
isn't even telling me to say that but
I'm going to get a copy of this as well
I think I got a copy of it already I'm
gonna I'm gonna definitely recommend it
though here on the Meidas touch Network
the those are some great excerpts check
it out
by Ben Meiselas
MeidasTouch Network
June 29, 2023
MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas reports on excerpts from the soon-to-be-released book ‘Blowback’ by former Trump staffer Miles Taylor who exposes a truly creepy moment involving Donald Trump and his daughter Ivanka Trump. Meiselas also discusses other horrific incidents discussed in the book.
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the MeidasTouch
Network Miles Taylor who served as the
former Chief of Staff of the United
States Department of Homeland Security
in the Trump Administration and then
left and called out the horrific
policies of the Trump Administration is
publishing a new book it's called
Blowback a warning to save democracy
from the next Trump also notable about
Miles Taylor
he authored the September 2018 New York
Times op-ed entitled I am part of the
resistance inside the Trump
Administration under the name Anonymous
we'll talk about that in a little bit
one of the excerpts from the book
blowback was released today and in it
this is what it says and this was Miles
Taylor's first-hand experience in
interacting with Donald Trump and
Trump's then Chief of Staff John Kelly
and it is very notable that Miles Taylor
worked under John Kelly so Miles Taylor
is close with John Kelly they are
witnesses to this here's what is said
and it is beyond beyond creepy and
disgusting but we all know this I think
about Donald Trump quote
aides said that Donald Trump talked about
Ivanka Trump's breasts, her backside, and
what it might be like to have sex with
her, remarks that once led former Chief
of Staff John Kelly to remind Donald
Trump that Ivanka was his daughter it
got to such a problematic point -- I mean
saying it once is problematic, but Trump
would talk about this all the time so
his chief of staff John Kelly had to
tell Donald Trump to stop it. by the way,
Donald Trump now despises his former
Chief of Staff John Kelly and says that John
Kelly was not qualified he's one of a
number of people who Donald Trump hired
who Donald Trump now disparages
this story about how Donald Trump
disgustingly would talk about his own
daughter Ivanka reminds me of a video
that we made here on the MeidasTouch
Network during the 2020 elections that
went megaviral and we even bought a
spot on Fox with this ad I believe uh
let me play this video right now it's
called creepy Trump and it is a video in
the early stages of MeidasTouch that we
created here play this clip a lot of
really creepy
statements that he's made in the
past that make me very uncomfortable
certainly as a mother, but also as a person
who breathes air you're going up the
escalator? yeah I'm going to be dating
her in 10 years. really creepy
statements if Ivanka weren't my daughter perhaps
I'd be dating her
[laughter]
You're so weird!
Stop what you are saying!
[Music]
it makes me very uncomfortable that he would look at certain other americans
the way he apparently has in the past
what does Tiffany have of mom's?
[tiffany trump in 1994, 1-yr-old]
getting Marla's legs
she's got, at this point, nipple [inaudible]
what's the
favorite thing you have in common with
your father either real estate or golf
Donald with your daughter well I was
going to say sex but I can't relate that
he's definitely not a typical father
CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY CREEPY
VOTE HIM OUT
#CREEPY TRUMP
I mean beyond disgusting some other
excerpts from the book blowback will
blow your mind away although as MeidasTouch Network viewers I think we
intuitively know this about Donald Trump
but seeing these experiences talked
about is certainly uh in writing like
this is just demonstrates how
unqualified and how disgraceful Donald
Trump is this is from the book quote
I'll never forget an ex-trump Cabinet
member telling me that Donald Trump is
truly the most evil person that I have
ever met quote we cannot make this
mistake again the cabinet member told
Miles Taylor in responding to some of
the press about his book blowback and
regarding how Donald Trump was talking
about Ivanka constantly Miles Taylor
states
he's a very sick man he's unfit for any
office and somehow he's leading the GOP
field of course Miles Taylor former
Republican I mean to see what's happened
to the modern day Republican party look
Miles Taylor is a friend of the MeidasTouch Network we're going to have him on
in a little bit to talk about his book
blowback but
just you know someone like a Miles
Taylor is someone we could have a
conversation with me and Miles may
disagree on some issues but
fundamentally we support our democracy
here so uh
that's the way it should be we may have
differences in politics and policies
but
I think we both care I know we both care
about our democracy this is from Miles
Taylor as well he goes Trump's Chief of
Staff my former boss
estimated that one-third of Donald
Trump's ideas were flat-out illegal
America can't afford a repeat quote
among us friends let's be honest Donald
Trump's former Chief of Staff and Miles
Taylor's boss said quote about one third of
the things Donald Trump wants us to do
are flat out stupid another third would
be impossible to implement and wouldn't
even solve the problem and a third of
them would be flat out illegal so
one-third stupid one-third impossible
one-third flat out illegal
illegal
here is another part of the book uh the
book blowback talks about how Donald
Trump's top aide Stephen Miller who was
also giving Trump advice on immigration
advocated for using United States drones
in 2018
to blow up migrant boats full of unarmed
civilians
that is in the book as well
according to Miles Taylor this is how
Trump talked about America's neighbors
quote you know why we need this Trump
continued pointing to a photo of the
border wall on his desk that Mexico
never paid for and that Donald Trump
didn't complete and Donald Trump said
because Mexico is a hell hole have I
said that yet because it is it's a
hellhole and no one effing wants that
place
there's another excerpt right here where
Donald Trump wanted to wiretap his staff
as Miles Taylor said not the move of a
man who thinks the team that his team
loves him
he goes on to say how Donald Trump's
paranoia was causing him to unravel so
much so that he wanted to spy on his
immediate lieutenants he allegedly told
aides that he wanted to quote tap the
phones of the White House staff to find
out who was leaking damaging stories
about him to the media Chief of Staff
John Kelly quickly nixed the suggestion
knowing it would be illegal let me also
read here this is one of the things that
Miles Taylor posted he goes history
warns us to be wary of a leader who
pretends to be a quote man of the people
but detests working men and women 2)
acts like a deal maker but easily breaks
promises 3)
ignores experts but is said to be
seduced by himself during his own
speeches 4) calls for opponents to be
locked up but frets about getting
convicted himself 5) manipulates the
media for personal gain but attacks the
quote lying press as enemies 6) vows to
root out corruption but abuses official
powers 7) claims to have the best
lieutenants but surrounds himself with
sycophants 8) relishes supporters'
violence but keeps enough distance to
avoid charges of incitement 9) knows
small lies aren't believable but quote
big lies become gospel 10) builds his
cause around a pledge to make the
country great again while threatening
its very foundations Miles Taylor goes
on to say this is a description of Adolf
Hitler drawn from biographies of the man.
others have sought to follow in his
footsteps finally Miles Taylor
in his book also quotes former GOP
Congressman rep Riggleman who put It
best in an interview for the book
blowback that Republicans privately say
Trump is probably high on meth and yet
they still bow down to him
here is the passage from the book former
GOP Congressman Denver Riggleman who was
elected from Virginia in 2018
recalled that it felt like a hostage
situation on the house floor he was
expecting to support the Maga movement
or else quote as soon as I won I
realized what I'd gotten myself into he
shared with me quote I found that votes
had nothing to do with policy but with
complete loyalty to Donald Trump I just
found it amazing that the other
representatives were so subservient
while they privately mocked Trump as
quote probably being high on meth he
said at first Riggleman toed the party
line and campaigned as a trump supporter
but then ultimately changed his way
folks get get blowback Miles Taylor
isn't even telling me to say that but
I'm going to get a copy of this as well
I think I got a copy of it already I'm
gonna I'm gonna definitely recommend it
though here on the Meidas touch Network
the those are some great excerpts check
it out
- admin
- Site Admin
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Re: Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certificat
by admin » Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:06 am
Trump ARIZONA CRIMINAL PLOT is Finally EXPOSED
by Ben Meiselas
MeidasTouch
Jul 3, 2023
MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas discusses the latest Washington Post report that Donald Trump threatened the former Arizona Governor Doug Ducey after the 2020 election. Calling Jack Smith!
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch
Network we know that last week's special
counsel Jack Smith and his team took a
trip to Atlanta and met with the
secretary of state of Georgia Brad
raffensberger Brad raffensberger
Republican Secretary of State of Georgia
received the phone call from Donald
Trump after the 2020 election Brad I
need you to find me 11,780
votes to overturn the results of the
election in Georgia or else Brad bad
things are going to happen to you Brad
raffensberger and his team were
recording that phone call because they
know they were being extorted by Donald
Trump Donald Trump says that was a
perfect phone call nobody was yelling at
him on the phone call that's how he
knows it was perfect nobody was throwing
ketchup so that's also why he thinks it
was perfect and he claims that the only
crime that was committed was that he was
being recorded without his consent of
course Donald Trump is a liar and a
criminal and every single thing he says
is completely and utterly preposterous
and false and just propaganda to his
base who evidently do not care about the
facts and reality but Donald Trump's
calls to Brad raffensberger many legal
observers including myself believe it
was criminal well
um uh special counsel Jack Smith's not
just stopping when it comes to Brad
raffensberger special counsel Jack Smith
may also be focused on other threats
that we haven't necessarily been focused
on here and the Washington Post is
reporting for example that Donald Trump
was not just pressuring Brad
raffensberger they shouldn't come as a
surprise though because we know Trump
was press pressuring lots of officials
but Trump was also pressuring Arizona
governor Doug Ducey to overturn the
results in Arizona the results of the
2020 election a new exclusive Washington
Post report that broke this weekend says
Trump pressured Arizona governor Doug
Ducey to overturn the 2020 election
results in a phone call in late 2020
Donald Trump tried to pressure Arizona
governor Doug Ducey to overturn the
state's presidential election results
saying that if enough fraudulent votes
could be found it would overcome Trump's
loss in Arizona three people familiar
with the matter talked to Washington
Post for this article Trump also
reportedly spoke with uh Pence and told
Pence to basically put pressure on Ducey
Pence called Ducey multiple times but
did not do any of the things that Donald
Trump said that he should do to do see
that is important as well because you
will recall that former vice president
Pence has testified before special
counsel Jack Smith and all of that
special counsel Jack Smith has now
learned so all of the individuals
whether it was Doug Ducey or other
people that Trump was getting Pence to
try to call and threaten special counsel
Jack Smith has that information and
Pence according to the sources in this
article never carried out Donald Trump's
wishes because doesn't say this in the
article but let me fill in the because
Pence knew it was Criminal
so clearly when Jack Smith had former
vice president Pence before a grand jury
he would have asked pencil name me all
of the times Donald Trump told you to
call people why didn't you say the
things that Donald Trump wanted you to
say oh because it was a crime the
article goes on to say that the extent
of Trump's efforts to they use the word
control I'll use the word threaten Ducey
into helping him stay in power has not
yet been reported The Washington Post
reported on it first even though other
efforts by Donald Trump uh and Trump's
lawyers threatening other Arizona
officials has been reported as well
according to people who heard about
these stories from Ducey Ducey described
the pressure he was under after Trump's
loss to numerous people the account was
confirmed by others aware of the call
Ducey told the donor he was surprised
that special counsel Jack Smith's team
had not inquired about his phone call
with Trump and Pence as part of the
Justice Department's investigation into
former president Trump's attempt to
overturn the 2020 election well the
reality is though is that it should have
come as a surprise you now know what the
Midas touch Network why Jack Smith has
the info he has the info from the other
people that he's spoken to and that's
what Jack Smith is
nailing down.
the article says that Ducey did not
record the phone call the way Brad
raffensberger uh recorded the phone call
now at a public office it says Ducey
declined through a spokesperson to
answer specific questions about his
interactions quote this is neither new
nor is it news to anyone following the
issue the last two years spokesman
Daniel scarpinato said in a statement
Governor Ducey defend the results of
Arizona's 2020 election he certified the
election and he made it clear that the
certification provided a trigger for
credible complaints backed by evidence
to be brought forward none were ever
brought forward the government stands by
his action to certify the election and
consider the issue to be in the rear
view mirror
uh the article then goes on to cite a
trump spokesperson who just says oh it's
a Witch Hunt it's a Witch Hunt it's a
Witch Hunt the article goes on to say
it's unclear if Ducey has been contacted
by Smith's office since meeting with
this donor it is unclear if prosecutors
plan to eventually bring charges or how
the calls figure into their
investigation prosecutors have shown
interest into Trump's efforts to
conscript Pence into helping him
according to Witnesses and and subpoenas
previously reviewed by The Washington
Post the article goes on to say how
Trump phoned the governor's cell phone
on November 30th 2020 as Ducey was in
the middle of signing documents certify
you remember this certifying Biden's win
in this state during a live stream video
ceremony Trump's Outreach was
immediately clear to those watching
because Governor ducey's phone as he was
certifying Biden he had the ringtone set
to hell to the chief playing on his
phone Ducey pulled out his phone from
his suit jacket muted the incoming call
and put his phone aside as he was
signing the certification saying that
Biden won that's when Trump was calling
him as the certification was being
signed the article goes on to say four
people familiar with the call said Trump
spoke specifically about his shortfall
of more than ten thousand votes in
Arizona and then espoused a range of
false claims that would show he
overwhelmingly won the election in the
state and encouraged Ducey to study them
at the time Trump's attorneys and allies
spread false claims to explain his loss
including that voters who had died and
non-citizens had cast ballots
after Trump's call to Ducey Trump
directed Pence a former governor who had
known Ducey for years to frequently
check in with Ducey for any progress
uncovering claims of voting
improprieties according to people with
knowledge Pence was expected to report
back his findings and was peppered with
conspiracy theories from Trump and his
team Pence did not pressure Ducey but
told him to call if he found anything
because Trump was looking for evidence a
representative for Pence declined to
comment on the story then it goes on to
say in Arizona Trump and his attorney
Rudy Giuliani called the speaker of the
house remember this Rusty Bowers on
November 22nd 2020 they asked the
speaker to convene the legislature to
investigate their unsubstantiated claims
a voter fraud which included that votes
were cast in Mass by undocumented
immigrants and in the names of deceased
people weeks later on December 31 2020
the White House switchboard left a
message for the chair of the Maricopa
County Board of Supervisors and you
recall all the threats that were
directed at Rusty bowers's way and now
of course we know as well Rudy Giuliani
is cooperating with special counsel Jack
Smith and gave a proper agreement and
provided an interview with Jack Smith's
team right very recently we reported on
it this week so
this is big folks the fact that we now
are alerting that again not just
directed at the secretary of state of
Georgia threats also being directed at
Doug Ducey uh then governor of Arizona
Pence was the conduit of it Pence didn't
execute the threats Pence spoke before
the grand jury Giuliani offered a proper
agreement all of this is shaping up
to be certainly put in the indictment
that we expect to be brought against
Donald Trump so stay tuned the
indictment for election interference I
said is going to be massive my
prediction is going to have hundreds of
criminal counts so just get ready for
that
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch
Network hit subscribe we're on our way
to 1.5 million subscribers thanks to
your support check us out at patreon.com
minus touch and make sure you subscribe
to our YouTube channel it is free
***********************
Trump pressured Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey to overturn 2020 election
by Leigh Ann Caldwell, Josh Dawsey and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
Washington Post
July 1, 2023 at 6:00 a.m. EDT
NOTICE: THIS WORK MAY BE PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT
President Donald Trump speaks with Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey (R) as they participate in a working lunch with governors at the White House on June 13, 2019. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)
In a phone call in late 2020, President Donald Trump tried to pressure Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey (R) to overturn the state’s presidential election results, saying that if enough fraudulent votes could be found it would overcome Trump’s narrow loss in Arizona, according to three people familiar with the call.
Trump also repeatedly asked Vice President Mike Pence to call Ducey and prod him to find the evidence to substantiate Trump’s claims of fraud, according to two of these people. Pence called Ducey several times to discuss the election, they said, though he did not follow Trump’s directions to pressure the governor.
The extent of Trump’s efforts to cajole Ducey into helping him stay in power has not before been reported, even as other efforts by Trump’s lawyer and allies to pressure Arizona officials have been made public. Ducey told reporters in December 2020 that he and Trump had spoken, but he declined to disclose the contents of the call then or in the more than two years since. Although he disagreed with Trump about the outcome of the election, Ducey has sought to avoid a public battle with Trump.
Ducey described the “pressure” he was under after Trump’s loss to a prominent Republican donor over a meal in Arizona earlier this year, according to the donor, who like others interviewed for this story spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. The account was confirmed by others aware of the call. Ducey told the donor he was surprised that special counsel Jack Smith’s team had not inquired about his phone calls with Trump and Pence as part of the Justice Department’s investigation into the former president’s attempt to overturn the 2020 election, the donor said.
Ducey did not record the call, people familiar with the matter said.
Now out of public office, the former governor declined through a spokesman to answer specific questions about his interactions with Trump and his administration.
“This is neither new nor is it news to anyone following this issue the last two years,” spokesman Daniel Scarpinato said in a statement. “Governor Ducey defended the results of Arizona’s 2020 election, he certified the election, and he made it clear that the certification provided a trigger for credible complaints backed by evidence to be brought forward. None were ever brought forward. The Governor stands by his action to certify the election and considers the issue to be in the rear view mirror.”
A spokesman for Trump declined to respond to questions about the call with Ducey and instead falsely declared in a statement that “the 2020 Presidential election was rigged and stolen.” The spokesman said Trump should be credited for “doing the right thing — working to make sure that all the fraud was investigated and dealt with.”
It is unclear if Ducey has been contacted by Smith’s office since meeting with the donor. Investigators in the special counsel’s office have asked witnesses about Trump’s calls with governors, including the one to Ducey, according to two people familiar with the matter. It is unclear if prosecutors plan to eventually bring charges or how the calls figure into their investigation. Prosecutors have also shown interest in Trump’s efforts to conscript Pence into helping him, according to witnesses and subpoenas previously reviewed by The Washington Post.
Trump phoned the governor’s cellphone on Nov. 30, 2020, as Ducey was in the middle of signing documents certifying President Biden’s win in the state during a live-streamed video ceremony. Trump’s outreach was immediately clear to those watching. They heard “Hail to the Chief” play on the governor’s ringtone. Ducey pulled his phone from out of his suit jacket, muted the incoming call and put his phone aside. On Dec. 2, he told reporters he spoke to the president after the ceremony, but he declined to fully detail the nature of the conversation. Ducey said the president had “an inquisitive mind” but did not ask the governor to withhold his signature certifying the election results.
But four people familiar with the call said Trump spoke specifically about his shortfall of more than 10,000 votes in Arizona and then espoused a range of false claims that would show he overwhelmingly won the election in the state and encouraged Ducey to study them. At the time, Trump’s attorneys and allies spread false claims to explain his loss, including that voters who had died and noncitizens had cast ballots.
After Trump’s call to Ducey, Trump directed Pence, a former governor who had known Ducey for years, to frequently check in with the governor for any progress on uncovering claims of voting improprieties, according to two people with knowledge of the effort.
Pence was expected to report back his findings and was peppered with conspiracy theories from Trump and his team, the person said. Pence did not pressure Ducey, but told him to please call if he found anything because Trump was looking for evidence, according to those familiar with the calls.
A representative for Pence declined to comment.
In each of the calls, Ducey reiterated that officials in the state had searched for alleged widespread illegal activity and followed up on every lead but had not discovered anything that would have changed the outcome of the election results, according to Ducey’s recounting to the donor.
After learning that Ducey was not being supportive of his claims, Trump grew angry and publicly attacked him.
It is unclear if Ducey and Trump had additional conversations. Publicly, the governor said the state’s election systems should be trusted, even as Trump and his allies sought to reverse his loss.
In Arizona, Trump and his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, called then Speaker of the House Rusty Bowers (R) on Nov. 22, 2020. They asked the speaker to convene the legislature to investigate their unsubstantiated claims of voter fraud, which included that votes had been cast en masse by undocumented immigrants and in the names of deceased people. Weeks later, on Dec. 31, 2020 the White House switchboard left a message for the chair of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, Clint Hickman, seeking to connect him with Trump. The supervisor, a Republican, did not return the call.
Trump and his allies made similar appeals to officials in Michigan and Georgia. On Jan. 2, 2021, Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) and said he wanted to undo his loss there by finding additional votes. The next night, the White House switchboard left Hickman another voice mail seeking to connect him to Trump. Hickman did not call back.
Investigators with Smith’s office interviewed Raffensperger this week, and they interviewed Giuliani last week. “The appearance was entirely voluntary and conducted in a professional manner,” said Giuliani spokesman Ted Goodman.
More than half a dozen past and current officials in Arizona contacted by Trump or his allies after his defeat have either been interviewed by Smith’s team or have received grand jury subpoenas seeking records, according to four people familiar with the interviews. Those interviewed include Bowers, the former Arizona House speaker, and three current members of the governing board of Maricopa County, the largest voting jurisdiction in the state that affirmed that Biden won.
Spokespeople for Arizona Gov. Katie Hobbs (D) and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes (D), told The Post this week that their offices have not received correspondence from Smith’s team seeking records about the 2020 election. The Arizona Secretary of State’s office received a grand jury subpoena dated Nov. 22, 2022, that sought information about communications with Trump, his campaign and his representatives, according to an official familiar with the document but not authorized to publicly speak about it.
During his time as governor, Ducey navigated a hot-and-cold relationship with Trump. Ducey, who struck a more conventional approach to governing, was slow to embrace Trump during his first bid for the White House. The two men warmed to each other, and amid the pandemic and Trump’s second bid for the White House, Ducey campaigned for him.
But after Ducey certified Arizona’s election results, affirming the wins of Biden and other Democrats, Trump ridiculed him on social media: “Why is he rushing to put a Democrat in office, especially when so many horrible things concerning voter fraud are being revealed at the hearing going on right now … What is going on with @dougducey?”
That same day, allies of the president gathered in Phoenix to air unproven claims of widespread fraud and claim that state lawmakers could reject the will of voters. Giuliani attended the event, along with Republican lawmakers and activists; Trump dialed in.
The president invoked Ducey repeatedly in the days that followed, according to an archive of his tweets. On Dec. 3, Trump asked if “allowing a strong check of ballots” in Arizona would “be easier on him and the great State of Arizona.” On Dec. 5, Trump wrote that Ducey and Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) “fight harder against us than do the Radical Left Dems.”
A week later, Trump attacked the men again, asking “Who is a worse governor?” He labeled them “RINO Republicans” and baselessly claimed that “They allowed states that I won easily to be stolen.”
Ducey, long eyed by national Republicans as a formidable candidate for the U.S. Senate, passed on a 2024 bid after his standing with the Trump base cratered after Trump’s attacks. After leaving office in January, he was a fellow at the Sine Institute of Policy & Politics at American University, where he spoke about the policies he enacted while in office. Earlier this month, Ducey announced that he is leading a free-enterprise focused political action committee, Citizens for Free Enterprise.
Jacqueline Alemany contributed to this report.
By Leigh Ann Caldwell
Leigh Ann Caldwell is co-author of The Washington Post’s Early 202 and focuses on Congress and politics. She is also an anchor for Washington Post Live, conducting high-impact newsmaking interviews. Before joining The Post in 2022, Caldwell was a correspondent at NBC News, most recently as a member of its congressional unit. Twitter
By Josh Dawsey
Josh Dawsey is a political enterprise and investigations reporter for The Washington Post. He joined the paper in 2017 and previously covered the White House. Before that, he covered the White House for Politico, and New York City Hall and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie for the Wall Street Journal. Twitter
By Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez writes about voting issues in Arizona for The Washington Post. She previously covered politics for the Arizona Republic. Twitter
*******************
Trump Pressed Arizona Gov. Ducey To Overturn 2020 Election Results, Report Says
by Ty Roush
Forbes Staff
Jul 1, 2023,05:10pm EDT
TOPLINE
President Donald Trump called Gov. Doug Ducey (R-Ariz.) in 2020 to overturn Arizona’s presidential election results, according to the Washington Post, not long before Trump made a similar request to Georgia state officials, which sparked an ongoing criminal probe into Trump’s actions.
KEY FACTS
>> Trump called Ducey in November 2020 to see whether the state would investigate claims of election fraud in the state, unnamed sources told the Washington Post.
>> Trump also requested Vice President Mike Pence to frequently contact and pressure Ducey, who said in December 2020 that Trump had contacted him, though Pence did not follow through on pressuring him.
>> Ducey also told Pence and Trump—who later accused Ducey of “total corruption”—that the state had already investigated claims of election fraud, noting it had not discovered any evidence.
>> Ducey described the call during a Republican donor event earlier this year, according to the Post, adding that Ducey was surprised special counsel Jack Smith had not contacted him about details of the call as part of the Justice Department’s investigation into Trump.
CHIEF CRITIC
A spokesperson for Ducey told the Post that reports about Trump pressuring Ducey to overturn the election “is neither new nor is it news to anyone following this issue the last two years.” The spokesperson added Ducey stands by his decision to certify Arizona’s election results because no “credible complaints” of election fraud were brought forward.
TANGENT
The Fulton County, Georgia, district attorney’s office has been investigating Trump since 2021 for a similar phone call to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R-Ga.), in which Trump asked Raffensberger to “find” votes to overturn the state’s election results. Trump also reportedly pressured other state legislators to decertify the state’s election results. Trump’s legal team previously requested the investigation be thrown out. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis said in April she would announce possible criminal charges as a result of the investigation between July 11 and September 1, though it is unclear whether charges will be brought against Trump.
BIG NUMBER
74. That’s how many more electoral college votes President Joe Biden had than Trump in winning the presidency, 306 to 232. Even with Arizona’s 11 votes, combined with Georgia’s 16, Trump would not have won.
KEY BACKGROUND
Ducey—the former CEO of Cold Stone Creamery—served as Arizona’s governor from 2015 to 2023 after first being elected as state treasurer in 2010. He serves as the CEO of the Citizens for Free Enterprise political action committee. Trump trailed President Joe Biden by just under 11,000 votes in Arizona’s 2020 presidential election. Trump and his campaign have repeatedly claimed there was widespread election fraud during the election while calling for results to be overturned, while subsequent legal challenges failed and no evidence has ever emerged. Claims of election fraud in Arizona centered on Maricopa County, in which some Republican legislators—including gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake—falsely claimed ballot results were skewed.
Ty Roush: I cover breaking news for Forbes. Before Forbes, I worked as a reporter for USA Today in Asheville and Black Mountain, North Carolina.
******************************
Trump pressured former Arizona governor to overturn 2020 election results: Trump narrowly lost to Joe Biden in Arizona.
by Rachel Scott, Katherine Faulders, and Lucien Bruggeman
abc news
July 1, 2023, 3:46 PM
Former President Donald Trump attempted to pressure then-Gov. Doug Ducey to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in Arizona, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter. The Washington Post first reported the allegations.
Sources also confirm to ABC News that Trump dispatched [ordered] former Vice President Mike Pence to pressure Ducey to find fraudulent votes in the state, and that while Pence did call Ducey multiple times in the aftermath of the election, he did not follow those orders.
Trump narrowly lost Arizona to Joe Biden in November 2020.
No recording of the call was made, sources told ABC News.
A spokesperson for Ducey called this reporting "nothing more than a 'copy and paste' of a compilation of articles from the past two years, disguised as something new."
"Governor Ducey defended the results of Arizona’s 2020 election, he certified the election, and he made it clear that the certification provided a trigger for credible complaints backed by evidence to be brought forward. None were ever brought forward. The Governor stands by his action to certify the election and considers the issue to be in the rear view mirror — it’s time to move on," the spokesperson said in a statement.
Trump's campaign, in response to the reporting, reiterated the former president's view that "the 2020 Presidential election was rigged and stolen," but did not refute the story.
"These witch-hunts are designed to interfere and meddle in the 2024 election in an attempt to prevent President Trump from returning to the White House to make this country great again," the statement from Trump's campaign said.
by Ben Meiselas
MeidasTouch
Jul 3, 2023
MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas discusses the latest Washington Post report that Donald Trump threatened the former Arizona Governor Doug Ducey after the 2020 election. Calling Jack Smith!
Transcript
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch
Network we know that last week's special
counsel Jack Smith and his team took a
trip to Atlanta and met with the
secretary of state of Georgia Brad
raffensberger Brad raffensberger
Republican Secretary of State of Georgia
received the phone call from Donald
Trump after the 2020 election Brad I
need you to find me 11,780
votes to overturn the results of the
election in Georgia or else Brad bad
things are going to happen to you Brad
raffensberger and his team were
recording that phone call because they
know they were being extorted by Donald
Trump Donald Trump says that was a
perfect phone call nobody was yelling at
him on the phone call that's how he
knows it was perfect nobody was throwing
ketchup so that's also why he thinks it
was perfect and he claims that the only
crime that was committed was that he was
being recorded without his consent of
course Donald Trump is a liar and a
criminal and every single thing he says
is completely and utterly preposterous
and false and just propaganda to his
base who evidently do not care about the
facts and reality but Donald Trump's
calls to Brad raffensberger many legal
observers including myself believe it
was criminal well
um uh special counsel Jack Smith's not
just stopping when it comes to Brad
raffensberger special counsel Jack Smith
may also be focused on other threats
that we haven't necessarily been focused
on here and the Washington Post is
reporting for example that Donald Trump
was not just pressuring Brad
raffensberger they shouldn't come as a
surprise though because we know Trump
was press pressuring lots of officials
but Trump was also pressuring Arizona
governor Doug Ducey to overturn the
results in Arizona the results of the
2020 election a new exclusive Washington
Post report that broke this weekend says
Trump pressured Arizona governor Doug
Ducey to overturn the 2020 election
results in a phone call in late 2020
Donald Trump tried to pressure Arizona
governor Doug Ducey to overturn the
state's presidential election results
saying that if enough fraudulent votes
could be found it would overcome Trump's
loss in Arizona three people familiar
with the matter talked to Washington
Post for this article Trump also
reportedly spoke with uh Pence and told
Pence to basically put pressure on Ducey
Pence called Ducey multiple times but
did not do any of the things that Donald
Trump said that he should do to do see
that is important as well because you
will recall that former vice president
Pence has testified before special
counsel Jack Smith and all of that
special counsel Jack Smith has now
learned so all of the individuals
whether it was Doug Ducey or other
people that Trump was getting Pence to
try to call and threaten special counsel
Jack Smith has that information and
Pence according to the sources in this
article never carried out Donald Trump's
wishes because doesn't say this in the
article but let me fill in the because
Pence knew it was Criminal
so clearly when Jack Smith had former
vice president Pence before a grand jury
he would have asked pencil name me all
of the times Donald Trump told you to
call people why didn't you say the
things that Donald Trump wanted you to
say oh because it was a crime the
article goes on to say that the extent
of Trump's efforts to they use the word
control I'll use the word threaten Ducey
into helping him stay in power has not
yet been reported The Washington Post
reported on it first even though other
efforts by Donald Trump uh and Trump's
lawyers threatening other Arizona
officials has been reported as well
according to people who heard about
these stories from Ducey Ducey described
the pressure he was under after Trump's
loss to numerous people the account was
confirmed by others aware of the call
Ducey told the donor he was surprised
that special counsel Jack Smith's team
had not inquired about his phone call
with Trump and Pence as part of the
Justice Department's investigation into
former president Trump's attempt to
overturn the 2020 election well the
reality is though is that it should have
come as a surprise you now know what the
Midas touch Network why Jack Smith has
the info he has the info from the other
people that he's spoken to and that's
what Jack Smith is
nailing down.
the article says that Ducey did not
record the phone call the way Brad
raffensberger uh recorded the phone call
now at a public office it says Ducey
declined through a spokesperson to
answer specific questions about his
interactions quote this is neither new
nor is it news to anyone following the
issue the last two years spokesman
Daniel scarpinato said in a statement
Governor Ducey defend the results of
Arizona's 2020 election he certified the
election and he made it clear that the
certification provided a trigger for
credible complaints backed by evidence
to be brought forward none were ever
brought forward the government stands by
his action to certify the election and
consider the issue to be in the rear
view mirror
uh the article then goes on to cite a
trump spokesperson who just says oh it's
a Witch Hunt it's a Witch Hunt it's a
Witch Hunt the article goes on to say
it's unclear if Ducey has been contacted
by Smith's office since meeting with
this donor it is unclear if prosecutors
plan to eventually bring charges or how
the calls figure into their
investigation prosecutors have shown
interest into Trump's efforts to
conscript Pence into helping him
according to Witnesses and and subpoenas
previously reviewed by The Washington
Post the article goes on to say how
Trump phoned the governor's cell phone
on November 30th 2020 as Ducey was in
the middle of signing documents certify
you remember this certifying Biden's win
in this state during a live stream video
ceremony Trump's Outreach was
immediately clear to those watching
because Governor ducey's phone as he was
certifying Biden he had the ringtone set
to hell to the chief playing on his
phone Ducey pulled out his phone from
his suit jacket muted the incoming call
and put his phone aside as he was
signing the certification saying that
Biden won that's when Trump was calling
him as the certification was being
signed the article goes on to say four
people familiar with the call said Trump
spoke specifically about his shortfall
of more than ten thousand votes in
Arizona and then espoused a range of
false claims that would show he
overwhelmingly won the election in the
state and encouraged Ducey to study them
at the time Trump's attorneys and allies
spread false claims to explain his loss
including that voters who had died and
non-citizens had cast ballots
after Trump's call to Ducey Trump
directed Pence a former governor who had
known Ducey for years to frequently
check in with Ducey for any progress
uncovering claims of voting
improprieties according to people with
knowledge Pence was expected to report
back his findings and was peppered with
conspiracy theories from Trump and his
team Pence did not pressure Ducey but
told him to call if he found anything
because Trump was looking for evidence a
representative for Pence declined to
comment on the story then it goes on to
say in Arizona Trump and his attorney
Rudy Giuliani called the speaker of the
house remember this Rusty Bowers on
November 22nd 2020 they asked the
speaker to convene the legislature to
investigate their unsubstantiated claims
a voter fraud which included that votes
were cast in Mass by undocumented
immigrants and in the names of deceased
people weeks later on December 31 2020
the White House switchboard left a
message for the chair of the Maricopa
County Board of Supervisors and you
recall all the threats that were
directed at Rusty bowers's way and now
of course we know as well Rudy Giuliani
is cooperating with special counsel Jack
Smith and gave a proper agreement and
provided an interview with Jack Smith's
team right very recently we reported on
it this week so
this is big folks the fact that we now
are alerting that again not just
directed at the secretary of state of
Georgia threats also being directed at
Doug Ducey uh then governor of Arizona
Pence was the conduit of it Pence didn't
execute the threats Pence spoke before
the grand jury Giuliani offered a proper
agreement all of this is shaping up
to be certainly put in the indictment
that we expect to be brought against
Donald Trump so stay tuned the
indictment for election interference I
said is going to be massive my
prediction is going to have hundreds of
criminal counts so just get ready for
that
I'm Ben Meiselas from the Meidas touch
Network hit subscribe we're on our way
to 1.5 million subscribers thanks to
your support check us out at patreon.com
minus touch and make sure you subscribe
to our YouTube channel it is free
***********************
Trump pressured Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey to overturn 2020 election
by Leigh Ann Caldwell, Josh Dawsey and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
Washington Post
July 1, 2023 at 6:00 a.m. EDT
NOTICE: THIS WORK MAY BE PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT
YOU ARE REQUIRED TO READ THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE AT THIS LINK BEFORE YOU READ THE FOLLOWING WORK, THAT IS AVAILABLE SOLELY FOR PRIVATE STUDY, SCHOLARSHIP OR RESEARCH PURSUANT TO 17 U.S.C. SECTION 107 AND 108. IN THE EVENT THAT THE LIBRARY DETERMINES THAT UNLAWFUL COPYING OF THIS WORK HAS OCCURRED, THE LIBRARY HAS THE RIGHT TO BLOCK THE I.P. ADDRESS AT WHICH THE UNLAWFUL COPYING APPEARED TO HAVE OCCURRED. THANK YOU FOR RESPECTING THE RIGHTS OF COPYRIGHT OWNERS.
President Donald Trump speaks with Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey (R) as they participate in a working lunch with governors at the White House on June 13, 2019. (Jabin Botsford/The Washington Post)
In a phone call in late 2020, President Donald Trump tried to pressure Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey (R) to overturn the state’s presidential election results, saying that if enough fraudulent votes could be found it would overcome Trump’s narrow loss in Arizona, according to three people familiar with the call.
Trump also repeatedly asked Vice President Mike Pence to call Ducey and prod him to find the evidence to substantiate Trump’s claims of fraud, according to two of these people. Pence called Ducey several times to discuss the election, they said, though he did not follow Trump’s directions to pressure the governor.
The extent of Trump’s efforts to cajole Ducey into helping him stay in power has not before been reported, even as other efforts by Trump’s lawyer and allies to pressure Arizona officials have been made public. Ducey told reporters in December 2020 that he and Trump had spoken, but he declined to disclose the contents of the call then or in the more than two years since. Although he disagreed with Trump about the outcome of the election, Ducey has sought to avoid a public battle with Trump.
Ducey described the “pressure” he was under after Trump’s loss to a prominent Republican donor over a meal in Arizona earlier this year, according to the donor, who like others interviewed for this story spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. The account was confirmed by others aware of the call. Ducey told the donor he was surprised that special counsel Jack Smith’s team had not inquired about his phone calls with Trump and Pence as part of the Justice Department’s investigation into the former president’s attempt to overturn the 2020 election, the donor said.
Ducey did not record the call, people familiar with the matter said.
Now out of public office, the former governor declined through a spokesman to answer specific questions about his interactions with Trump and his administration.
“This is neither new nor is it news to anyone following this issue the last two years,” spokesman Daniel Scarpinato said in a statement. “Governor Ducey defended the results of Arizona’s 2020 election, he certified the election, and he made it clear that the certification provided a trigger for credible complaints backed by evidence to be brought forward. None were ever brought forward. The Governor stands by his action to certify the election and considers the issue to be in the rear view mirror.”
A spokesman for Trump declined to respond to questions about the call with Ducey and instead falsely declared in a statement that “the 2020 Presidential election was rigged and stolen.” The spokesman said Trump should be credited for “doing the right thing — working to make sure that all the fraud was investigated and dealt with.”
It is unclear if Ducey has been contacted by Smith’s office since meeting with the donor. Investigators in the special counsel’s office have asked witnesses about Trump’s calls with governors, including the one to Ducey, according to two people familiar with the matter. It is unclear if prosecutors plan to eventually bring charges or how the calls figure into their investigation. Prosecutors have also shown interest in Trump’s efforts to conscript Pence into helping him, according to witnesses and subpoenas previously reviewed by The Washington Post.
Trump phoned the governor’s cellphone on Nov. 30, 2020, as Ducey was in the middle of signing documents certifying President Biden’s win in the state during a live-streamed video ceremony. Trump’s outreach was immediately clear to those watching. They heard “Hail to the Chief” play on the governor’s ringtone. Ducey pulled his phone from out of his suit jacket, muted the incoming call and put his phone aside. On Dec. 2, he told reporters he spoke to the president after the ceremony, but he declined to fully detail the nature of the conversation. Ducey said the president had “an inquisitive mind” but did not ask the governor to withhold his signature certifying the election results.
But four people familiar with the call said Trump spoke specifically about his shortfall of more than 10,000 votes in Arizona and then espoused a range of false claims that would show he overwhelmingly won the election in the state and encouraged Ducey to study them. At the time, Trump’s attorneys and allies spread false claims to explain his loss, including that voters who had died and noncitizens had cast ballots.
After Trump’s call to Ducey, Trump directed Pence, a former governor who had known Ducey for years, to frequently check in with the governor for any progress on uncovering claims of voting improprieties, according to two people with knowledge of the effort.
Pence was expected to report back his findings and was peppered with conspiracy theories from Trump and his team, the person said. Pence did not pressure Ducey, but told him to please call if he found anything because Trump was looking for evidence, according to those familiar with the calls.
A representative for Pence declined to comment.
In each of the calls, Ducey reiterated that officials in the state had searched for alleged widespread illegal activity and followed up on every lead but had not discovered anything that would have changed the outcome of the election results, according to Ducey’s recounting to the donor.
After learning that Ducey was not being supportive of his claims, Trump grew angry and publicly attacked him.
It is unclear if Ducey and Trump had additional conversations. Publicly, the governor said the state’s election systems should be trusted, even as Trump and his allies sought to reverse his loss.
In Arizona, Trump and his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, called then Speaker of the House Rusty Bowers (R) on Nov. 22, 2020. They asked the speaker to convene the legislature to investigate their unsubstantiated claims of voter fraud, which included that votes had been cast en masse by undocumented immigrants and in the names of deceased people. Weeks later, on Dec. 31, 2020 the White House switchboard left a message for the chair of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, Clint Hickman, seeking to connect him with Trump. The supervisor, a Republican, did not return the call.
Trump and his allies made similar appeals to officials in Michigan and Georgia. On Jan. 2, 2021, Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R) and said he wanted to undo his loss there by finding additional votes. The next night, the White House switchboard left Hickman another voice mail seeking to connect him to Trump. Hickman did not call back.
Investigators with Smith’s office interviewed Raffensperger this week, and they interviewed Giuliani last week. “The appearance was entirely voluntary and conducted in a professional manner,” said Giuliani spokesman Ted Goodman.
More than half a dozen past and current officials in Arizona contacted by Trump or his allies after his defeat have either been interviewed by Smith’s team or have received grand jury subpoenas seeking records, according to four people familiar with the interviews. Those interviewed include Bowers, the former Arizona House speaker, and three current members of the governing board of Maricopa County, the largest voting jurisdiction in the state that affirmed that Biden won.
Spokespeople for Arizona Gov. Katie Hobbs (D) and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes (D), told The Post this week that their offices have not received correspondence from Smith’s team seeking records about the 2020 election. The Arizona Secretary of State’s office received a grand jury subpoena dated Nov. 22, 2022, that sought information about communications with Trump, his campaign and his representatives, according to an official familiar with the document but not authorized to publicly speak about it.
During his time as governor, Ducey navigated a hot-and-cold relationship with Trump. Ducey, who struck a more conventional approach to governing, was slow to embrace Trump during his first bid for the White House. The two men warmed to each other, and amid the pandemic and Trump’s second bid for the White House, Ducey campaigned for him.
But after Ducey certified Arizona’s election results, affirming the wins of Biden and other Democrats, Trump ridiculed him on social media: “Why is he rushing to put a Democrat in office, especially when so many horrible things concerning voter fraud are being revealed at the hearing going on right now … What is going on with @dougducey?”
That same day, allies of the president gathered in Phoenix to air unproven claims of widespread fraud and claim that state lawmakers could reject the will of voters. Giuliani attended the event, along with Republican lawmakers and activists; Trump dialed in.
The president invoked Ducey repeatedly in the days that followed, according to an archive of his tweets. On Dec. 3, Trump asked if “allowing a strong check of ballots” in Arizona would “be easier on him and the great State of Arizona.” On Dec. 5, Trump wrote that Ducey and Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) “fight harder against us than do the Radical Left Dems.”
A week later, Trump attacked the men again, asking “Who is a worse governor?” He labeled them “RINO Republicans” and baselessly claimed that “They allowed states that I won easily to be stolen.”
Ducey, long eyed by national Republicans as a formidable candidate for the U.S. Senate, passed on a 2024 bid after his standing with the Trump base cratered after Trump’s attacks. After leaving office in January, he was a fellow at the Sine Institute of Policy & Politics at American University, where he spoke about the policies he enacted while in office. Earlier this month, Ducey announced that he is leading a free-enterprise focused political action committee, Citizens for Free Enterprise.
Jacqueline Alemany contributed to this report.
By Leigh Ann Caldwell
Leigh Ann Caldwell is co-author of The Washington Post’s Early 202 and focuses on Congress and politics. She is also an anchor for Washington Post Live, conducting high-impact newsmaking interviews. Before joining The Post in 2022, Caldwell was a correspondent at NBC News, most recently as a member of its congressional unit. Twitter
By Josh Dawsey
Josh Dawsey is a political enterprise and investigations reporter for The Washington Post. He joined the paper in 2017 and previously covered the White House. Before that, he covered the White House for Politico, and New York City Hall and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie for the Wall Street Journal. Twitter
By Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez writes about voting issues in Arizona for The Washington Post. She previously covered politics for the Arizona Republic. Twitter
*******************
Trump Pressed Arizona Gov. Ducey To Overturn 2020 Election Results, Report Says
by Ty Roush
Forbes Staff
Jul 1, 2023,05:10pm EDT
TOPLINE
President Donald Trump called Gov. Doug Ducey (R-Ariz.) in 2020 to overturn Arizona’s presidential election results, according to the Washington Post, not long before Trump made a similar request to Georgia state officials, which sparked an ongoing criminal probe into Trump’s actions.
KEY FACTS
>> Trump called Ducey in November 2020 to see whether the state would investigate claims of election fraud in the state, unnamed sources told the Washington Post.
>> Trump also requested Vice President Mike Pence to frequently contact and pressure Ducey, who said in December 2020 that Trump had contacted him, though Pence did not follow through on pressuring him.
>> Ducey also told Pence and Trump—who later accused Ducey of “total corruption”—that the state had already investigated claims of election fraud, noting it had not discovered any evidence.
>> Ducey described the call during a Republican donor event earlier this year, according to the Post, adding that Ducey was surprised special counsel Jack Smith had not contacted him about details of the call as part of the Justice Department’s investigation into Trump.
CHIEF CRITIC
A spokesperson for Ducey told the Post that reports about Trump pressuring Ducey to overturn the election “is neither new nor is it news to anyone following this issue the last two years.” The spokesperson added Ducey stands by his decision to certify Arizona’s election results because no “credible complaints” of election fraud were brought forward.
TANGENT
The Fulton County, Georgia, district attorney’s office has been investigating Trump since 2021 for a similar phone call to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger (R-Ga.), in which Trump asked Raffensberger to “find” votes to overturn the state’s election results. Trump also reportedly pressured other state legislators to decertify the state’s election results. Trump’s legal team previously requested the investigation be thrown out. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis said in April she would announce possible criminal charges as a result of the investigation between July 11 and September 1, though it is unclear whether charges will be brought against Trump.
BIG NUMBER
74. That’s how many more electoral college votes President Joe Biden had than Trump in winning the presidency, 306 to 232. Even with Arizona’s 11 votes, combined with Georgia’s 16, Trump would not have won.
KEY BACKGROUND
Ducey—the former CEO of Cold Stone Creamery—served as Arizona’s governor from 2015 to 2023 after first being elected as state treasurer in 2010. He serves as the CEO of the Citizens for Free Enterprise political action committee. Trump trailed President Joe Biden by just under 11,000 votes in Arizona’s 2020 presidential election. Trump and his campaign have repeatedly claimed there was widespread election fraud during the election while calling for results to be overturned, while subsequent legal challenges failed and no evidence has ever emerged. Claims of election fraud in Arizona centered on Maricopa County, in which some Republican legislators—including gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake—falsely claimed ballot results were skewed.
Ty Roush: I cover breaking news for Forbes. Before Forbes, I worked as a reporter for USA Today in Asheville and Black Mountain, North Carolina.
******************************
Trump pressured former Arizona governor to overturn 2020 election results: Trump narrowly lost to Joe Biden in Arizona.
by Rachel Scott, Katherine Faulders, and Lucien Bruggeman
abc news
July 1, 2023, 3:46 PM
Former President Donald Trump attempted to pressure then-Gov. Doug Ducey to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in Arizona, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter. The Washington Post first reported the allegations.
Sources also confirm to ABC News that Trump dispatched [ordered] former Vice President Mike Pence to pressure Ducey to find fraudulent votes in the state, and that while Pence did call Ducey multiple times in the aftermath of the election, he did not follow those orders.
Trump narrowly lost Arizona to Joe Biden in November 2020.
No recording of the call was made, sources told ABC News.
A spokesperson for Ducey called this reporting "nothing more than a 'copy and paste' of a compilation of articles from the past two years, disguised as something new."
"Governor Ducey defended the results of Arizona’s 2020 election, he certified the election, and he made it clear that the certification provided a trigger for credible complaints backed by evidence to be brought forward. None were ever brought forward. The Governor stands by his action to certify the election and considers the issue to be in the rear view mirror — it’s time to move on," the spokesperson said in a statement.
Trump's campaign, in response to the reporting, reiterated the former president's view that "the 2020 Presidential election was rigged and stolen," but did not refute the story.
"These witch-hunts are designed to interfere and meddle in the 2024 election in an attempt to prevent President Trump from returning to the White House to make this country great again," the statement from Trump's campaign said.
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