Trump lashes out at Gov. Doug Ducey following certification

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Kristen Welker's interview with Trump: NBC's "Meet the Press" moderator Kristen Welker conducted a wide-ranging interview with former President Donald Trump.(Full transcript)
by Kristen Welker
NBC News
Sept. 17, 2023, 8:00 AM MDT

KRISTEN WELKER:

President Trump, welcome back to Meet the Press.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Thank you.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to dive right into this. A lot to get to.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Good.

KRISTEN WELKER:

There are a number of things that make your campaign unprecedented. You are the first former president to run for re-election in more than a hundred years. You are facing four indictments. You have an incredibly significant lead in the GOP primary polls. But I want to ask you this, Mr. President: Why do you want to be president again?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, it’s a very simple answer, and I can give it very easily. It’s called: “Make America Great Again.” Our country is in serious trouble. I don’t think we’ve ever been so low in terms of, certainly opinion, world opinion and country opinion. People are devastated. They look at what’s happening with millions of people coming in, millions of illegal immigrants coming into our country, flooding our cities, flooding the countryside. I think the number is going to be 15 million people by the time you end this — by the end of this year, I think the real number’s going to be 15 million people. They come from prisons. They come from mental institutions, insane asylums. They say, “Sir, please don’t use that term,” but it’s true. They’re terrorists at a level — you know, it was very interesting, on NBC, I saw a poll, and I saw some statistics, and it said in 2019, there were no terrorists. They caught no terrorists. There was nothing that they saw. There was no anything. And now, this year, it’s a record number like they’ve never seen before. So, we did a great job at the border. We did a great job with the military. We did a great job with inflation. We had essentially no inflation. We had a great economy. And, we didn’t have an Afghanistan disaster. We were getting out, but we were going to get out with dignity and pride, not the way they got out. That was a surrender, and an embarrassment, and horrible. We gave $85 billion worth of equipment to the Taliban. We had death, so much death, and so much horrible destruction. And it was a terrible thing. I think it was the lowest point in the history of our country. Now, with all of that, we can change it, and we can make America great again. And that’s why I’m doing this.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, and you have talked about a lot. We are going to delve into a number of issues —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– you brought up. You talked about all the people coming across the border. Of course, a lot of families also coming across the border as well —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to talk to you about that a little bit later on. But first, let’s talk about the breaking news today. We learned just a short time ago that the president’s son, Hunter Biden, was indicted by a federal grand jury on three gun charges. Given that, Mr. President, can you continue to say that there are two systems of justice?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I think there’s no question about it. He had a plea deal that was the deal of the century — the art of the deal. You could write a book on it. The art of the deal. And, all of a sudden, that was broken up by a judge who was able to — a brilliant judge, actually, who was able to see through what was happening. And it’s a sad situation. I mean, nobody should be happy about this. I’m not happy about it. Nobody is. It’s a very sad thing, and it’s so bad for our country. But, you know, if you think about it, I’ve been under investigation from the day I came down the escalator, and phony investigations, fake investigations, investigations that I beat every single time. Still under investigations. But it’s a very sad thing, and it’s a slippery slope —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– and dangerous, very dangerous for our country.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But you talked about the plea deal, but now, Hunter Biden’s been indicted. He’s facing —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah, sure, sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– very serious charges. So doesn’t that undercut your entire argument that there are two systems of justice in this country?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, look, it’s one of 12 charges. There are 12 possible charges, and this —

KRISTEN WELKER:

And he’s still under investigation.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– is the only charge that doesn’t affect his father.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, he’s still under investigation.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, sure, maybe. I mean, let’s see what happens. But this is the only charge that doesn’t affect Joe Biden. This was the gun charge. But gun charges are very serious. You know, people have had gun charges and gone to jail for a lot of, a lot of years. I pardoned some people who I thought it was just horrible what happened. But they were put in jail for many, many years, rappers and others. So, look, it’s a bad thing. But it’s one of 12, and it’s the one charge that doesn’t affect Joe Biden.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, of course, there’s no evidence that the president has any link to his son’s business dealings. Let me ask you, though —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I don’t —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– about a second —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– necessarily agree.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, there is no —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

He called in. I mean, he called in to all these meetings. He was calling in on the meetings. He was put on speakerphone and — every single day and —

KRISTEN WELKER:

The witness who testified —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– literally many, many calls. And what about the fact that he got rid of the prosecutor for a billion dollars? They said —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, the witness who testified —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

“You don’t get rid of this prosecutor, we’re not giving you a billion dollars to Ukraine.” He said that. I mean, there are a lot of things here, Kristen.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, the witness who testified though, said that he never heard any discussion of business when President Biden was put on the phone. But let’s —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But, wait, wait. You saw the prosecutor —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– let’s talk about —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– thing on television, because I saw it on your network. He said, “You don’t get rid of this prosecutor, I’m not giving $1 billion.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

That was looked into, as well. And, as you know, there was never any wrongdoing —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, come on.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– determined.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

If I ever said that —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s move on —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– quid pro quo.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s move on to what a second Trump term would look like.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

When you launched your campaign in March, you told the crowd, quote, “I am your retribution.” What does that mean? What does that look like?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think retribution is talking in terms of I have to protect people. What they’re doing to people is so horrible. They’re putting people in jail for long periods of time, firemen, policemen, accountants, even lawyers. They’re in prisons for years now and don’t even have trials in some cases. And if you look at antifa and other groups, practically nothing happened to them. They burned down Portland. They burned down Minneapolis. They took over Seattle. I mean, they literally took over a big chunk of the city. People died, and nothing happened to them. We have to protect all people.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But when you talk about retribution, are you talking about directing your attorney general to try to go after your political enemies?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

When I talk about retribution, I’m talking about fairness. We have to treat people fairly. These people on January 6th, they went — some of them never even went into the building, and they’re being given sentences of, you know, many years.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Are you going to pardon those people —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And nothing is happening.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– who’ve been convicted —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I’m going to look at them, and I certainly might if I think it’s appropriate. No, it’s a very, very sad thing. And it’s — they’re dividing the country so badly, and it’s very dangerous.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, Mr. President, we’re going to delve into that a little bit later on, but I want to stay on this idea of what you mean by retribution. Are you looking to appoint an attorney general who will prosecute the people you tell them to prosecute?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m looking to appoint an attorney general who’s going to be tough on crime and fair. Very simple.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And go after your political enemies?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. I would never do that. But Biden has done that. Look, Biden — these aren’t indictments against me. These are Biden indictments. This isn’t God coming down and very fairly said, “Oh, you spoke badly about an election.” The election was rigged. There’s no question about that. There’s so much proof on it. Even if you go to the more modern-day proof with the — they call it Twitter Files, FBI and Twitter, or you take a look at the Amazon stuff or the Google stuff, or you take a look at “2,000 Mules,” you take a look at all of the ballot stuffing that’s on tape, you take a look at the fact that the legislatures didn’t approve a lot of the things that were done in the elections, and they had to approve. And we could go on forever. We could go on forever. But, but no. I want somebody that’s going to be strong, respected, tough, and fair.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Just to go back to a couple of the points you said, the ballot stuffing. That’s something that’s been debunked.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It hasn’t been debunked. It’s on camera.

KRISTEN WELKER:

As you know, let’s — But I do want to keep moving forward.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah, but, Kristen, it’s on camera. Hundreds — even thousands and thousands of people. You take a look. True the Vote. Take a look. It’s on camera. They have thousands of —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, you know Republican officials and top law enforcement officials, they have told you that that’s debunked.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I know, but, Kristen, you can’t say — They have thousands of pictures of people — I know you have to say that for your network, but you shouldn’t say it, because that’s the problem.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But, Mr. President–

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

The news has lost such power.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s stay on track, though, Mr. President. Let’s stay on track with these questions —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, but you’re saying– It hasn’t. We have thousands of essentially motion pictures of people stuffing the ballot boxes. Tens of thousands.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But, Mr. President, they’re not stuffing the ballot boxes. And you’ve been told that by your top law enforcement officials. But let’s stay on track, because we have so much ground to cover. We have policy ground to cover, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You have people that went and voted in one place, another place, another place, as many as, I understand, 28 different places in one day with seven, eight, nine ballots apiece. They can’t do it anymore, because it would look too phony. These were professional people. They were stuffing the ballot boxes. It’s there.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I mean, it’s there to see. A lot of people don’t like looking at it.

KRISTEN WELKER:

— you took your case to court in 60 different cases all across the country. You lost that. But let’s stay on track because we have so many —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We lost because the judges didn’t want to hear them.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, we have so many topics to cover.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But if this were ever before a court, we would win so easy. There is so much evidence that the election was rigged. And you may not even put this section on your show, and you’ll have to decide what you want to do. But people know it was rigged. Look, the media —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, there’s no evidence of that. And you know there’s no evidence of that

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

When I first got involved in politics —

KRISTEN WELKER:

We have so many different topics —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Tremendous evidence.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to talk about what a potential —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, let me ask you this.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You agree there was Twitter Files, right?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You agree there were 51 intelligence agents that lied? You agree with that?

KRISTEN WELKER:

I’m not the one who’s being interviewed. Let’s stay on track —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, no, but — I know, but that’s rigging the election.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Because I want to talk about policy because that’s what voters want to hear about, Mr. President. Let’s talk about what’s happening on Capitol Hill right now.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Go ahead. Go ahead.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Speaker McCarthy announced that he was launching an impeachment inquiry this week into President Biden. Do you see this as a part of the retribution that you seek?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, not at all. I think, look, you look at the terrible things that have been happening with respect to Biden. Look at everything: Jamie Comer, Jim Jordan, who are fantastic people and very legitimate people. I watched Jamie Comer just a little while ago talking about a lot of different facets of what’s going on, and he was the one that said, “I guess there were — there were 12 things where it looks like it’s stone-cold guilty, and the gun charge is only one of the 12.” He said, “This is the only one that doesn’t implicate Joe Biden.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

So, but my question for you: Did you talk to Speaker McCarthy about this House impeachment inquiry?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. I don’t talk to him like that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you tell him that he should open a House impeachment inquiry?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. I don’t do that. I don’t think he’d do that. I mean, he wouldn’t do it based on me, no.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you talk to your Republican allies on Capitol Hill and say, “You should support this impeachment inquiry”?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I don’t have to talk — they’re more proactive than I am. They think it’s terrible. I will say this: They think I was treated very unfairly. I mean, when I was impeached for a perfect phone call, and now it turned out to be perfect. I hope you will admit that, at least. Because I was right, 100% right. But I was impeached for a perfect phone call. And how sad that is. And we had 196 to nothing vote — Republicans. Very unusual for the Republican Party. I was so proud of them. A hundred ninety six. The entire House, not one person dissented. And then — other than Romney, who sort of gave me half a vote. But we had 100% in the Senate. People think I was treated very unfairly.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, the people who —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And I know, I know I was treated —

KRISTEN WELKER:

The people who voted for that impeachment say that the phone call that you reference was about a quid pro quo.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It was perfect.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

My phone call was perfect. My phone call was saying, “Please investigate any crimes that you see.” And by the way, I’m mandated to do that as the president of the United States. And it was really, really a call to congratulate him on winning the election. But —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, let’s —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, what — when you talk about quid pro quo, please don’t talk about quid pro quo, because there was none in the call at all. Where there’s a quid —

KRISTEN WELKER:

That was the heart — what I’m saying is —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Where there is a quid pro quo —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– that was the heart of that impeachment.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– was when Biden said, very strongly, “We’re not going to give them the billion dollars unless they get rid of the prosecutor.” That’s a quid pro quo.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, let me take a step back here, because a lot of voters say what they want to talk about right now is your vision for the future.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And I’ve been traveling to a lot of the early voting states, and they say that your focus on the past is a problem for them. What do you say to those voters?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I have no focus on the past except that you have to learn from history. You have to learn from the past. We had an election that was very, very terrible. It was a terrible thing for our country. And you have to learn from that. You can’t forget that and just go — now, with all of the things that we said, I had the best economy maybe in history.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’re going to talk about it next.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Right.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So, let’s stay on track with —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I had the best economy in history, and I’m going to do it again. I had the best energy. We were energy independent, soon to be energy dominant. Now, we’re begging for energy. I mean, what they’ve done to this country, they’re destroying our country.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’re going to talk about the economy in just a minute. But before we move on from Capitol Hill, do you think Republican hardliners should abandon their threat to shut down the government over their spending priorities now that there is this impeachment inquiry?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No. I think if they don’t get a fair deal — we have to save our country. We have $35 trillion in debt. We have to save our country. You know, the —

KRISTEN WELKER:

So, you would shut down the government? You’d support that?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’d shut down the government if they can’t make an appropriate deal, absolutely.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. Let’s talk about the economy. And I want to start by talking about this big standoff between the auto workers and the big three auto manufacturers.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

My question for you, Mr. President, whose side are you on in this?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m on the side of making our country great. The auto workers are not going to have any jobs when you come right down to it, because if you take a look at what they’re doing with electric cars, electric cars are going to be made in China. The auto workers are not going to have any — I’ll tell you what. The auto workers are being sold down the river by their leadership, and their leadership should endorse Trump. The reason is: You’ve got to have choice, like in school. I want school choice. I also want choice for cars. If somebody wants gasoline, if somebody wants all electric, they can do whatever they want. But they’re destroying the consumer, and they’re destroying the auto workers. The auto workers will not have any jobs, Kristen, because the — all of these cars are going to be made in China. The electric cars, automatically, are going to be made in China.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So, let’s talk about UAW’s leadership. The president, Shawn Fain, has withheld his endorsement of President Biden. This is what he had to say about you. Quote, “Another Donald Trump presidency would be a disaster.” How would you win that endorsement?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, if that’s the case, I probably won’t win his — I don’t know the gentleman, but I know his name very well, and I think he’s not doing a good job in representing his union, because he’s not going to have a union in three years from now. Those jobs are all going to be gone, because all of those electric cars are going to be made in China. That’s what’s happening, number one. Number two, the electric cars are much more expensive and they don’t go far enough. So if somebody wants to take a little bit of a long — just like the trucks. If somebody wants to take a little bit of a long ride, let’s go to Maine, or let’s go to Kentucky from New York, let’s — you can’t do it. I mean, you have to stop all the time. They don’t go far enough. They’re very expensive. They have a lot of drawbacks. Now, with that being said, some people are going to want them. Some people are going to travel short distances. What they’re doing with our trucking industry is a disaster, because they want all electric trucks. And a truck on a — with a large tank, large gasoline or diesel capacity, can go up to 2,000 miles. An electric truck goes 300 miles. So, what are these guys going to do? They’re going to, they’re going to stop every 300 miles and recharge their truck and spend three hours?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s move on and talk about another big-picture issue when it comes to the economy: the issue of interest rates, inflation, something that you’ve —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– talked a lot about.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

The Federal Reserve is obviously independent, but I wonder, Mr. President, if you are reelected, would you direct your Federal Reserve chair to lower interest rates?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well you know that I put a lot of pressure on him. It was outside pressure, because nobody knows whether or not you can really do that, but I did, because I thought his interest rates were too high. And he ultimately dropped his interest rates. The same gentleman, as you know. And — but it was a lot of pressure. I mean, I was very active on that. Right now, interest rates are very high. They’re too high. People can’t buy homes. They can’t do anything. I mean, they can’t borrow money. The banks don’t have the money. The banks aren’t lending the money. The banks — by the way, Chase Manhattan Bank, Bank of America, they discriminate against conservatives. It’s a disgrace, and they shouldn’t be allowed to, and I’m going to do something about that. But you take a look at banks throughout the country. And I think because of the regulators — but you take a look at Bank of America and Chase, they discriminate against conservatives and Republicans.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What’s the evidence for that, Mr. President

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, we’ll give you plenty of evidence —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. All right, well, let’s stay on track with this question, though. So, just to be very clear, if you were reelected, would you direct your Fed chair to lower interest rates?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Depends. It depends.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You might.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Depends where inflation is. But I would get inflation down, because drill we must. We will be drilling for oil. We are going to become, again, energy independent. We are going to reduce our debt, because we’re also going to become energy dominant. You know, we were ready to go dominant within a matter of months. We would have been making so much money. We have more oil, I call it liquid gold, under our feet than any other country — Saudi Arabia, Russia. There’s no country with more — and it’s sweet. It’s the finest. We have the best. You know, we’re taking it from Venezuela. You know what it is? Tar.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Are you —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s the worst.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, are you going to appoint a new Fed chair if you’re reelected?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I guess he would have two years left or something like that, so we’ll see.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. All right.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know the word jawboning? I did a lot of jawboning against him, and he ultimately lowered interest rates. We had low interest rates. We had the best housing market ever. We had people buying homes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Economists —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Today, people can’t buy homes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Economists are looking at some of the figures right now, the fact that the unemployment rate is at 3.8%, and they say it looks like the U.S. may not dip into a recession. What do you make of that assessment?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, I don’t know. You got — people are going to — they say that, and then you end up in a depression. They say you’re going to do great, you end up bad, and the opposite. These — most of them don’t know what they’re doing. It’s a touch. It’s a feel. And I predicted a lot of markets. I predicted a lot of things, frankly, you know? They say, “Trump was right about everything.” I think that the way it’s going now, you’re going to have to — things are not going, right now, very well for the consumer. Bacon is up five times. Food is up horribly, worse than energy. Energy is starting to go up at a level that we haven’t seen in a long time, meaning a couple of years — since he took over, because I had energy prices very low. I had gasoline very low. We have to get the energy down, which they will never do. And they kept it artificial because they took the strategic reserves, which I had a lot to do with filling up for the first time ever. They took the strategic reserves, and he issued it to everybody so that he could keep the gas prices down. Now, strategic reserves are at the lowest level they’ve ever been at, and we need that for war.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And there are a lot of factors —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We need that —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– that have contributed to that.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, no. The big factor is the fact that he took that oil —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about taxes.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– he took that and he let — he wanted to have low gas prices for an election. And now, we have nothing left.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, there are a lot of factors, including global factors, that went into that. Let’s talk about taxes, though.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t know why people stick up for him so much —

KRISTEN WELKER:

You had —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– when he makes bad decisions, like you.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You — Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t know why, and I have a lot of respect for you, and you were very fair in the debate. But I don’t know why you and other people say, “Oh, it’s okay that he’s destroyed the strategic —

KRISTEN WELKER:

No. Just —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– petroleum reserves.” I mean, why do you do that? Or, “It’s okay that he has open borders.” Somebody who was —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– in your position, not quite as good, said this morning, “Oh, having open borders is a wonderful thing.” I don’t know why. And I think that’s why the media —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Not sticking up --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– has lost so much credibility.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– no, we’re not sticking up, Mr. President, we’re just having a conversation. Let me talk to you about taxes and your differences with President Biden over taxes.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

He wants to raise corporate tax rates to 28%. It’s reported you want to lower them to 15%. Is that true?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’d like to lower them a little bit if we could. But, what I want to do is we have to get some income coming in. You know, when I lowered taxes, we took in more revenue.

KRISTEN WELKER:

To 15%, Mr. President?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know, that when I — depends. It depends on where we are at the time. You know, a lot happens in a year. But when I lowered taxes, I cut taxes tremendously, created tremendous jobs. So more importantly, we had more revenue with lower taxes than we did with higher taxes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You also added $8 trillion to the national debt. Your GOP challenger Nikki Haley made that point saying, quote, “The truth is that Biden didn’t do this to us. Republicans did this to us.” Does she have a point?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

So, we had a thing happen to us. We had the greatest economy in history, and then we got hit with Covid. And we had to keep this, this beautiful thing going. And if I didn’t do that, if we didn’t put some money — and nobody knew what Covid was. Remember this was a new thing that came in. Somebody said, “It’s dust coming in from China.” It came from China. They tried and denied it, or they tried for a little while, and we didn’t let it. It came from Wuhan actually, which now they agree. Everybody’s now agreeing that it came from Wuhan. I said that years ago. But we had to do things that were very severe. We had to let some money come out. We were going to — we were on the verge of doing something that was amazing. We were going to have energy at a level bigger than Russia and Saudi Arabia combined. That energy was going to be sold to Europe and all other places. The prices would have come down. We were going to make a fortune, and we were going to start paying off debt. Instead, we got hit with Covid. People didn’t need oil, because nobody was driving all over the world, I mean, frankly. It was a disaster. What China did to the world with Covid is something that we’re going to get to the bottom of. And they have to pay something back. You know, nobody can pay back the cost of all those lives and all the money that was lost. But nobody can back the lives and all of the damage that was caused, including China —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But to Nikki Haley’s key argument, Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But you know what, they have to, they have to pay something back. They have to do something —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– To Nikki Haley’s key argument, though, what do you say to her?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What does Nikki Haley know? I mean, I know Nikki Haley very well. She said I’m the greatest president. She left, she said I’m the greatest president. Now she’s running for office, and she says something. Look, look, Nikki Haley doesn’t know anything about it. She’s a politician. She knows nothing about it. Very nice woman. Some people like that, I would say. But she left office. She said very strongly, “I will never run. He was a great president,” and then in some cases said, “the greatest president in my lifetime,” in one case said, “ the greatest president ever.” Now she’s running. Nikki Haley has nothing to do with this. We will — we were going to make a fortune off our energy. We were going to send the energy to Europe. Europe was going to pay us tremendous amounts of money. And I’ll tell you, you would have never had the Ukraine monster at all. It would’ve never happened. Russia would’ve never gotten — just by sheer force of personality. But beyond personality, what happened is when oil hit $100 a barrel, and by the way, it’s right there right now again, Putin makes a fortune on this war. You know, everybody said, “Oh, he can’t afford it.” If Biden allowed my policies to stay in place, oil would right now be at $40 a barrel, and Putin wouldn’t be able to afford the war.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We are going to get to the war in Ukraine, but first, I do want to talk about the issue of abortion which is —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– important to a lot of voters all across the country. Just this week, women in Idaho and Tennessee, I don’t know if you saw this, filed suit against their states saying their lives were put at risk after they were denied abortion services, because of their states’ restrictive laws put in place after Roe was overturned. So my question for you, Mr. President, is: How is it acceptable in America that women’s lives are at risk, doctors are being forced to turn away patients in need, or risk breaking the law?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Ready? Little bit of a long answer. I hope you have time.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I hope you have time. I’m here for as long as you have.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

So you have Roe v. Wade, for 52 years, people including Democrats wanted it to go back to states so the states could make the right. Roe v. Wade — I did something that nobody thought was possible, and Roe v. Wade was terminated, was put back to the states. Now, people, pro-lifers, have the right to negotiate for the first time. They had no rights at all, because the radical people on this are really the Democrats that say, after five months, six months, seven months, eight months, nine months, and even after birth you’re allowed to terminate the baby —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, Democrats aren’t saying that. I just have to, Democrats are not saying that.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Of course they do —

KRISTEN WELKER:

That’s not true.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You have a Virginia governor, previous governor, who said, “After the baby is born, you will make a determination, and if you want, you will kill that baby.” The baby is now born.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, Democrats writ large are not talking about that. Only 1% of late-term abortions happen, and always in the state of —

FMR PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay. They are the —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– crisis.

FMR PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– radical people —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– because nobody wants to see —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But does —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– abortion after five months and six months and seven months. And, now it’s going to — it gave people the belief — and pro-life, look, just so you understand, it’s pretty much 50/50. It’s a 50/50 issue, amazing. If you look at the charts, it’s been 49/51. It’s been like that for many years, goes both ways — 51 — both ways. Ready? I was able to do something which gave at least pro-life people a voice. Now it’s going to work out. Now, the number of months will be determined.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can you answer this question?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And you’re going to have something where everybody comes together.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Does it bother you though that women say their lives are being put at risk? Do you feel you bear any responsibility, because as you say, you are responsible for having Roe v. Wade overturned.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What’s going to happen, this is an issue that’s been going on for a long time. And it’s a very polarizing issue. Because of what’s been done, and because of the fact we brought it back to the states, we’re going to have people come together on this issue. They’re going to determine the time, because nobody wants to see five, six, seven, eight, nine months. Nobody wants to see abortions when you have a baby in the womb. I said, with Hillary Clinton when we had the debate, I made a statement, “Rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, you’re allowed to do that, and you shouldn’t be allowed to do that.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Again, no one is arguing for that —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Again, listen, look —

KRISTEN WELKER:

That’s not a part of anyone’s argument, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Look, the Democrats are able to kill the baby after birth.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me talk to you —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Nobody wants that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Democrats don’t want that either.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

So we’re going to come together —

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Part 2 of 3

KRISTEN WELKER:

But let’s — I want to — I want to know what you want. I want to know what you’re going to do if you’re —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We are going to come together —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you sign federal legislation that would ban abortion at 15 weeks?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. Let me just tell you what I’d do. I’m going to come together with all groups, and we’re going to have something that’s acceptable. Right now, to my way of thinking, the Democrats are the radicals, because after four and five and six months. But you have to say this, after birth. You have New York State and other places that passed legislation where you’re allowed to kill the baby after birth.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, I want to give voters who are going to be weighing in on this election —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– a very clear sense of where you stand on —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think they’ll — I think they’re all going to like me. I think both sides are going to like me.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But, let me, let me — but Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What’s going to have to happen is you’re going to have to —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, let me just ask this question, please--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, you’re asking me a question. What’s going to happen is you’re going to come up with a number of weeks or months. You’re going to come up with a number that’s going to make people happy. Because 92% of the Democrats don’t want to see abortion after a certain period of time.

KRISTEN WELKER:

If a federal ban landed on your desk if you were reelected, would you sign it at 15 weeks —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Are you talking about a complete ban?

KRISTEN WELKER:

A ban at 15 weeks.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, people, people are starting to think of 15 weeks. That seems to be a number that people are talking about right now.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you sign that?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I would sit down with both sides and I’d negotiate something, and we’ll end up with peace on that issue for the first time in 52 years. I’m not going to say I would or I wouldn’t. I mean, DeSanctus is willing to sign a five-week and six-week ban.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you support that? You think that goes too far?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think what he did is a terrible thing and a terrible mistake. But we’ll come up with a number, but at the same time, Democrats won’t be able to go out at six months, seven months, eight months and allow an abortion. And Kristen, you have to look at this, because you said “no.” You have some states that are allowed to kill the child after birth, and you can’t allow that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, again, no one is calling for a child to be killed after birth. No one is calling for that to be allowed —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But you have legislation —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But let me just ask you —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, you have legislation in certain states where it’s allowed.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

The governor of Virginia, previous governor, who was a whack job —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Previous governor.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I call him the Michael Jackson governor.

KRISTEN WELKER:

No one’s talking about that as part of their platform —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That governor —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to know what you want —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Excuse me, that governor said you can kill the baby after birth.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, this is about what you would do if you were reelected. As you know, you upset some anti —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We will agree to a number of weeks, which will be where both sides will be happy. We have to bring the country together on this issue.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, when you talk about negotiating, I think a lot of people think to themselves, this is an issue that they care about deeply in their hearts —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I care about it too. Oh, I care about it too.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And they know where they stand, and they want to know where you stand. As you know, some anti-abortion groups are really looking for some clarity from you. So let me just ask you to put a fine point on this. Should the federal government impose any abortion restrictions, or should it be completely left up to the states?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I don’t think you should have — I don’t think you should be allowed to have abortions well into a pregnancy.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But what about the question I just asked you —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We’re going to agree — no — we’re going to agree to a number of weeks or months or however you want to define it. And both sides are going to come together and both sides — both sides, and this is a big statement, both sides will come together. And for the first time in 52 years, you’ll have an issue that we can put behind us.

KRISTEN WELKER:

At the federal level?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It could be state or it could be federal. I don’t frankly care.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So you’re not committed to a ban at the federal level.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I will say this. Everybody, including the great legal scholars, love the idea of Roe v. Wade terminated so it can be brought back to the states.

KRISTEN WELKER:

It sounds like that’s what you think too, that it should remain a state issue —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I, I would, I would say this: From a pure standpoint, from a legal standpoint, I think it’s probably better, but I can live with it either way. It’s much more important, the number of weeks is much more important. But something will happen with the number of weeks, the amount of time, after which you can’t do it. And you know what? The most — the most powerful people that are anti-abortion are okay with that now. And you know what? They weren’t okay with that even a year ago.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Your former vice president, Mike Pence, believes that a fetus should have constitutional rights. Do you believe that, Mr. president?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, Mike Pence said something about 15 weeks too, which was a big change for Mike Pence, because Mike Pence had no exceptions. I have exceptions, by the way. I think people should have exceptions. I think if it’s rape or incest or the life of the mother, I think you have to have exceptions. It’s very important.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Does a fetus have constitutional rights, Mr. president?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And a lot of people, when they don’t have exceptions — now, I will tell you that I think most people, most Republicans are willing. You go: life of the mother, rape, incest. I think most of them are there.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But should a fetus —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That’s a big statement.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– have constitutional rights, Mr. president?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I don’t know, I don’t know what he’s saying, because before, he wanted, you know, you couldn’t have abortions at all —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But what are you saying? What do you think —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Now all of a sudden — excuse me — now all of a sudden he’s saying 15 weeks. I said, “Wow, where did that come from? That’s a radical change.” Look, something is going to happen that’s going to be good for everybody. And that’s what I’m — I’m almost like a mediator in this case. They wanted Roe v. Wade terminated because it was inappropriate. We got it done. Something is going to happen. It’s going to be a number of weeks. Something is going to happen where the both sides are going to be able to come together. And then we’ll be able to go onto other things, like, the economy, our military —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Are you saying a federal ban with exceptions, is that what you’re saying?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What I say is very simple, because you can’t put words in my mouth like that —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I just want to understand.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– because you’ve been hearing me talk about this--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– issue —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Yeah.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– and I think talk about it very productively. It could be a state ban, it could be a federal ban, but Democrats want that too. Democrats don’t want to see abortion in the seventh month, okay. I speak to a lot of Democrats. They want a number. There is a number, and there’s a number that’s going to be agreed to, and Republicans should go out and say the following. They — cause, I think the Republicans speak very inarticulately about this subject. I watch some of them without the exceptions, et cetera, et cetera. I said, “Other than certain parts of the country, you can’t — you’re not going to win on this issue. But you will win on this issue when you come up with the right number of weeks.” Because Democrats don’t want to be radical on the issue, most of them, some do. They don’t want to be radical on the issue. They don’t want to kill a baby in the seventh month or the ninth month or after birth. And they’re allowed to do that, and you can’t do that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I have a very robust foreign policy section to get to. I do want to give you an opportunity to talk about some of your legal challenges, so if we could do that first, and then we’ll move on to foreign policy.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You are facing four indictments, 91 —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Biden indictments. Excuse me, Biden political indictments. He said to the attorney general —

KRISTEN WELKER:

He has said he’s had nothing to do with this. There’s no proof of that--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– he said to the attorney general, “Indict him.” They put in the New York DA case —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, there’s no proof of that, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– which everybody admits isn’t even a case.

KRISTEN WELKER:

There’s no proof of that, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Excuse me, but they’re Biden indictments —

KRISTEN WELKER:

You know there’s no proof of that.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know what? He started something that’s a very slippery slope. He said, “I’ve got a guy that’s beating me in the polls.” I’m beating all the Republicans by a lot, and I’m beating him by a lot. “I have somebody that’s beating me in the polls. Indict him.” And they, not only that, they took their top person in the Department of Justice and put him into the Manhattan DA’s office. They’re dealing with Fani Willis all the time.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, the attorney general —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

These are political indictments.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– appointed a special counsel to investigate you, President Biden, and President Biden’s son, Hunter, who was also indicted today. But I do want to move —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But President Biden does not fall within the Presidential Records Act. And frankly, you don’t ever hear anything about the special counsel. But they gave me this deranged person named Jack Smith. He’s a deranged lunatic. We — I fall within the Presidential Records Act. It’s very simple. It’s a civil thing. In fact, the New York Times of all institutions did a story, and it was headlined, “Please, please, please, Mr. President, could we take a look at the documents.” And they said in the story that “The only way you can get documents from a president is if you go there and say please.” Because this is civil. And they won’t even have a lawsuit. They may have a civil lawsuit at most, but they probably don’t even have a civil lawsuit. And this should never have been an indictment. There’s no criminal. Now there is criminal for Joe Biden, because he was a senator and he was a vice president. And as a senator and a vice president —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, the charges you’re facing don’t have anything to do with the Presidential Records Act. But let me ask my question so we can get to foreign policy.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But wait a minute. This comes within the Presidential Records Act —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Lets — let me just ask —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That’s what it’s about. It’s about records.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me just ask these questions, and then we can move on to some other topics. You are facing four indictments, 91 felony charges.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

If you would say it properly, I’m facing four Biden indictments. He told the Justice Department to indict him, or Merrick Garland said, “Let’s indict him.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me ask you this, Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They indicted their political opponent —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I just want to hear from you on this. I want to know what’s in your head. When you go to bed at night, do you worry about going to jail?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I don’t really. I don’t even think about it. I’m built a little differently I guess, because I have had people come up to me and say, “How do you do it, sir? How do you do it?” I don’t even think about it. These are corrupt people that I’m dealing with. They’re destroying our country. I don’t even think about it. All I think about is making the country great, making America great. Look, these are political, these are banana republic indictments. These are third-world indictments. The president of the United States sees how we’re doing. We have a movement the likes of which has never happened in this country before. And you see it with the polls. I mean, I’m up on these people by 60 points and 59 points. And, I don’t mean I’m at 59, I’m leading them by 59. You almost say, like, “Why are they campaigning?” Asa Hutchinson, he’s at zero. Christie’s at two. Other ones are at one. DeSanctimonious is at nine. I just see a poll come — I mean, I’m leading him by 60 points.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And you say, “Why are they doing that?” But here’s what they did. They saw this happening, and he went to the attorney general of the United States, and he told them, “Indict Trump.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

There is just no evidence of that, Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh why? Because you mean he’s honest —

KRISTEN WELKER:

But let’s, let’s stay on track —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Look at all the lies he’s told--

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, I want to talk about you.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, wait a minute, wait, wait. Could I say one thing? Look at all the lies he’s told over the last couple of weeks. He said he was at the World Trade Center and he wasn’t. He said he flew airplanes, right? He didn’t. He said he drove trucks, and he didn’t. Everything he says is, like, a lie. It’s terrible.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, I want —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Even his handicap in golf, he said he’s a six —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to stick —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

He’s not a six.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to stay focused on you, for the purposes of this interview —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– okay? Because it’s important that we hear from you about all of this. Tell me —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I’d like you to, but you keep interrupting me.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Tell me — Mr. President, tell me what you see when you look at your mugshot?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I see somebody that loves this country, and me, that loves this country. I see tremendous unfairness. I think very few people would have been able to handle what I handled. When I was coming down the escalator with Melania, I was already under investigation, because they saw how well I was doing in the polls. And it just got worse and worse, and we caught them. We said, “They were spying on our campaign.” It turned out to be true. They had the fake dossier. That turned out to be true. It was paid for by the Democratic party. It was all fiction. All of these things happened. Impeachment hoax number one, impeachment hoax number two. I’ve been treated very badly. And, I’ve won every single time. When you say, “Do I sleep?” I sleep, I sleep. Because I truly feel that in the end, we’re going to win. I think we’re going to win an election the likes of which nobody’s ever seen before. I don’t think anything’s going to stop it. Nothing’s going to stop it, because people see what’s happened to our country. We’re not respected in the world. Look at other countries. Look at what’s happened. Everybody’s going to the side of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia —

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’re going to talk about that. Mr. President, I want to —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. China is taking over the world —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– I want to delve into foreign policy, but let’s get through this. And then I want to talk to you about all of those —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– issues you just talked about, Mr. President. By the way, do you think your former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, is still loyal to you? He just pleaded not guilty in the Georgia case.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I hope he’s loyal to me.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Do you worry about him flipping?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I mean, I didn’t do anything wrong —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Do you worry about him —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I didn’t do anything wrong —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay, let’s talk about Georgia. I want to talk about that phone call that you made to Georgia’s secretary of state —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– a Republican, Brad Raffensperger —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

By the way, that was even more perfect than my call to —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– the president of Ukraine.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It was a perfect call. Just before you start, many top legal scholars, almost everyone, but many top legal have analyzed that phone call. That was a phone call made in front of, I guess seven or eight lawyers. Brad Raffensperger, the head, who by the way last week said, I didn’t do anything wrong. He said “that was a negotiation.” Brad Raffensperger, who I was dealing with, I appreciate that he said that. But he said last week, I didn’t do anything wrong —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about it so we can move on. You said in the call —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no, let me just tell you one other thing. When I spoke, I knew I was probably being taped. I didn’t ask, but I knew I was probably being taped. You know, they illegally tape me, because they tape me in Florida. It’s a two-party state. You know that, right? So they illegally taped the call, but forget about that for a second. I knew that there were many lawyers on the phone from the other side, from — there were many people, there were many people on the phone. What I told them, I said “The election was rigged.” I said all sorts of things about the election, which I believe —

KRISTEN WELKER:

And they told you it wasn’t.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– it 100%.

KRISTEN WELKER:

They told you it wasn’t —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I believe, no, I have all the facts. Look, I have all the facts. In one way, I look for a trial because it was so dishonest, okay, so rigged, and such a dangerous thing for our country. We have to have borders, and we have to have fair elections. We have neither. But let me just say —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to talk about the border, I want to talk about the border but we have to get through this —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– when I spoke in front of Brad Raffensperger, who again last week said I didn’t do anything wrong.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, it sounded like you were asking —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Brad Raffensperger said “it was a negotiation.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

– for him to come up with 11,000 votes —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, and you know that. You’re terrible when you say this. You’re off to a bad start, because what I said is very simple. “I got cheated in this election.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

He told you you didn’t.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

“And all I need is, like, 11,000,” whatever the number was.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Brad Raffensperger, who’s a Republican —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I got cheated in the election —

KRISTEN WELKER:

– said “You didn’t get cheated.”

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, he said that, but we have to go and see. You know, there’s some court cases out there. We want to go into Fulton County, and we want to see the real votes. And it’s so hard —

KRISTEN WELKER:

He said “they looked into it.” The election had been certified three times —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They can look into it. I don’t want them. I want to look into it. I would say that if we got access —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, the election had been cer--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– to the votes, which we’re close to getting in court, as you know. If we got access to those votes, if we look in, you will find numbers that you wouldn’t believe. More importantly, though, let me just say this.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to get through this, Mr. President —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, you have to just hear me out for one second.

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KRISTEN WELKER:

– so we can get to the foreign policy section.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We had, because you say something and then you want to go on to the next subject. We had many people on the line when I said, I spoke for an hour. I knew that many people were on the line. I knew that it was– who is, who is — I happen to be a really smart person. Who is going to be talking badly when I have lawyers and many other people on the line? Nobody’s going to say something bad. But if it was bad, why didn’t they say, “Sir, that was very inappropriate of you to say?” Nobody said that. Nobody said, “Sir.” It was only a long time after the call that somebody said, “Oh, maybe he said something wrong.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

They said —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

This is a hoax.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– “Sir, there’s no evidence that it’s been rigged.”

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

This is a hoax just like Russia, Russia, Russia. Just like Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. This is a hoax. Let me tell you, I spoke to them on the phone, and it was left, I think, something to the effect, “Okay, we’ll get together tomorrow.” Nobody said, “Sir, you shouldn’t speak.” If I said something incorrect, one of the lawyers for the State of Georgia, which I love, one of those lawyers would have said, “Sir, you’ll have to take that back. That’s an inappropriate statement.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, the Republican secretary of state —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Nobody said that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– said there was no evidence to fraud. He said he looked into it. The election had been certified three times when you made the call —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay, you’re, you’re talking about a different subject. If I said something wrong on the call, he or one of his many lawyers that were on the call would have said, “It’s inappropriate what you just said.” Nobody said that. We had a normal phone call. This became —

KRISTEN WELKER:

They said, “There’s no evidence of fraud.”

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

He also said, “I did nothing wrong,” last week.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Do you have any regrets about that call --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No. None --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– whatsoever?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

None whatsoever.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I called to complain about an election.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And I have every right to do that. Would you say --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Do you think I have a right to complain about an election?

KRISTEN WELKER:

You have a right to take your case to court, which you did 60 times.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. I didn’t do it 60 times --

KRISTEN WELKER:

And you didn’t win.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They wouldn’t hear it, based on all sorts of crazy -- they wouldn’t hear it. We never got — we never got a trial. Judges would look at stuff, say, “I’m not getting involved.” They didn’t want to get involved.

\KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s keep moving, so we get through all of this.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

If you take a look at the evidence, we have so much evidence. If you take a look at the evidence, even you I could convince.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You were going to hold that press conference, but you never did, with the evidence.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, because I’m using it in my court case instead.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. I want to ask you about the case related to Mar-a-Lago. A new charge suggests you asked a staffer to delete security camera footage so it wouldn’t get into the hands of investigators. Did you do that?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That’s false.

KRISTEN WELKER:

It’s false?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That’s false, but let me tell you --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you testify to that under oath?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure. I’m going to. I’ll testify --

KRISTEN WELKER:

You’ll testify to that under oath?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s a fake --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– charge by this deranged lunatic prosecutor, who lost in the Supreme Court nine to nothing. And he tried to destroy lots of lives. He’s a lunatic. So it’s a fake charge. But, more importantly, the tapes weren’t deleted. In other words, there was nothing done to them. And they were my tapes. I could’ve fought them. I didn’t even have to give them the tapes, I don’t think. I think I would have won in court. When they asked for the tapes, I said, “Sure.” They’re my tapes. I could have fought them. I didn’t even have to give them. Just so you understand, though, we didn’t delete anything. Nothing was deleted.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So that’s false. The people who testified --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Number one, the statement is false. Much more importantly, when the tapes came, and everybody says this, they weren’t deleted. We gave them 100%.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. Let’s --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And, and, and, just so you know, I offered them. I said, “If you want to look at tapes, you can look at them.”

[admin]

Part 3 of 3

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s move on to January 6th and the allegations that you tried to subvert the election. And, again, I just want to give you a chance to talk about this because voters want to hear about this. The most senior lawyers in your own administration and on your campaign told you that after you lost more than 60 legal challenges that it was over. Why did you ignore them and decide to listen to a new outside group of attorneys —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Because I didn’t respect them --

KRISTEN WELKER:

You’d hired them.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– as lawyers. Sure. But that doesn’t mean -- you hire them, you never met these people. You get a recommendation. They turn out to be RINOs, or they turn out to be not so good. In many cases, I didn’t respect them. But I did respect others. I respected many others that said the election was rigged. Look. We have many people, and it’s my choice — I happen to, I happen to know that the election was rigged. Okay? I know it because I have so much, there’s so much proof of ballot stuffing. You know, It’s amazing. Right just a little while ago, in terms of the modern history, where the 51 intelligence agents said very specifically they lied. They all lied. And they said about the laptop that it was Russia disinformation. That was a lie. That had a huge impact on the election. In fact, the pollsters say over 10 points. I didn’t need 10 points. I needed one-tenth of a point. If you take a look at the Twitter Files, with the F.B.I. and Twitter dealing, that had a huge impact on the election. Just those things. But in addition to that --

KRISTEN WELKER:

When you say you needed --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– you have ballot stuffing. You have a lot of other things.

KRISTEN WELKER:

When you say you needed one-tenth of a point, you needed one-tenth of a point --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I needed a very small --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– to win?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think somebody said 22,000 votes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

To win?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah. If you divide it among the states, it was 22,000 votes, something to that effect --

KRISTEN WELKER:

To — to win the election?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah. If I would’ve had another 22,000 votes over the whole -- but, look. They rigged the election --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Is --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

If you look at Pennsylvania --

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Mr. President, you’re saying you needed --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

If you looked at all the stuff --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– more votes to win the election, are you acknowledging you didn’t win?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Excuse me. If you look at all of the statistics, all of the votes, they say 22,000 votes. Over millions and millions of votes, 22,000 votes. So when they do Twitter Files, or when they have 51 intelligence agents come out and lie that the laptop from hell was Russia disinformation, and now they find out it’s not, but they knew that at the time. They cheated on the election in that way too.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I — I just want to be clear, though. Are you saying you needed those votes in order to win? Are you acknowledging you didn’t win?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m not acknowledging. No. I say I won the election.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. Even though, again, your lawyers told you, you did not.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. No.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you, just let me understand --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Some people told me that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But many people told me the opposite.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You called some of your outside lawyers — you said they had crazy theories. Why were you listening to them? Were you listening to them because they were telling you what you wanted to hear?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened. I watched that election, and I thought the election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You were listening to your instincts?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

My instincts are a big part of it. That’s been the thing that’s gotten me to where I am, my instincts. But I also listen to people. There are many lawyers. I could give you many books. There are books that are written on how the election was rigged. There are numerous books that were written on how the election was rigged.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Just to be clear, were you listening to your lawyers’ advice, or were you listening to your own instincts?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I was listening to different people. And when I added it all up, the election was rigged. There are books that are written --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Were you calling the shots though?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

In fact, Mollie Hemingway wrote a great book --

KRISTEN WELKER:

But were you calling —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– called “Rigged” --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– the shots ultimately?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Excuse me. Mollie Hemingway, who’s highly respected and great, she wrote a book, a bestselling book called “Rigged.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Were you calling the shots, though, Mr. President, ultimately?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

As to whether or not I believed it was rigged? Oh, sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It was my decision. But I listened to some people. Some people said that. Like, guys like Bill Barr, who was a stiff, but he wasn’t there at the time. But he didn’t do his job because he was afraid. You know what he was afraid of? He was afraid of being impeached. He was petrified to be impeached. And he — how do you not get impeached? Don’t do anything.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’ve heard so much, Mr. President, about that day, the actual day of January 6th, from other people. But, quite frankly, we haven’t heard from you about your own perceptions of how that day unfolded --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We talked about — we’ve heard you talk about the rally. And I’m curious about what happened when you got back to the White House. I know you spent most of the day in the dining room. What were you doing in there? How were you watching it unfold?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

So, let me just tell you about January 6th. First of all, I had very little to do with January 6th. I was asked to speak. And I was the president of the United States. I’m allowed to do that. But I was asked to speak. Other groups, I think it was women’s groups, a lot of people were involved in that. And it was incredible. It was incredible. It was, I think, the largest group I’ve ever spoken. You never see that. You never see pictures of the group that I was speaking to. I think it was the most people I’ve -- and I’ve spoken to some very large groups. Hundreds of thousands of people were there, and it was a beautiful, beautiful sight. But just so you understand, I went, and I spoke. And, by the way, peacefully and patriotically. And all of that, which wasn’t reported, which wasn’t reported, but when I spoke, I have had senators go up, I said — they said, “I’ve never heard you speak so moderately. You were very moderate.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

What happened when you got back to the White House, though, Mr. President?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, wait. Wait. Let me just say. So I spoke. And then I went back. I wanted to go down peacefully and patriotically to the Capitol. Secret Service, who I have great respect for, said, “Sir, it’s better if you don’t do that. It could be unsafe.” Because — they didn’t mean because of riots because, you know, it takes one guy with bad intentions, okay. So I didn’t have a dispute with them. You know you had that one person said I grabbed the man around the neck. Actually, I wish I was so strong to be able to do that. These are all tough guys, smart guys --

KRISTEN WELKER:

So you dispute that account?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Dispute it? Who wouldn’t dispute it? She’s — the craziest account I’ve ever heard. You mean that I was in “The Beast,” and she said I was in “The Beast,” and the Secret Service didn’t want -- so I took a guy who was like a black belt in karate and grabbed his neck and tried to choke him —

KRISTEN WELKER:

What happened --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

How ridiculous. Just so you understand, and I have great respect for Secret Service, by the way. They’re fantastic. The Secret Service said, “Sir, it would be better if you didn’t.” I said, “I’d love to do it.” They said, “It would be better.” And so we went back to the White House. Just so you understand: I spoke. I made a very nice speech. I wasn’t Maxine Waters that calls for people’s death, and some of these — take a look at what these other people say. It’s so --

KRISTEN WELKER:

What happened when you got --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– ridiculous.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– to the White House, though? Where did you watch all of the events --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, let me tell you --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– unfold?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– much more importantly, I offered two days before — two or three days before — 10,000 soldiers, right? And they were going to go — because everybody was telling me, I knew it was going to be big in terms of the crowd, because everybody I spoke to said, “Hey. I’m going down on January 6th. I’m going down. I’m going to listen to your speech,” et cetera. And there were other speak -- I wasn’t the only speaker. There were many speakers. But wait a minute. I offered 10,000 people to the mayor of Washington D.C. and Nancy Pelosi, both of them, Nancy Pelosi and to the mayor of Washington. And they turned it down flat. And the police commissioner was very nasty about it to her. And he testified. And here’s what happened. The January 6th un-Select Committee of thugs and horrible people, the un-Select Committee destroyed all the evidence. Did you know that --

KRISTEN WELKER:

They say they didn’t do that. We did ask them. We did ask the January 6th Committee.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, they announced that they destroyed --

KRISTEN WELKER:

They said they didn’t do that.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– and deleted most of the evidence.

KRISTEN WELKER:

They say some of the evidence is still under review. I want to know what --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Wait. Wait. Wait.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to know about your perspective. Mr. President--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, Kristen.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to ask about you, though --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They put out an announcement that they destroyed the evidence. And they destroyed all the stuff having to do with Nancy Pelosi. And they wouldn’t let her testify. We said, “Why isn’t she testify” — you know it was a whole rigged deal — “Why isn’t she testifying?” I offered them 10,000 soldiers --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– she turned them down.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– I want to know what you --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know that she’s in charge of security --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– did on that day. I want to know. You’re the President of the United States, though --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Kristen, she’s in charge of security --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Tell me how you watched this all unfold. Were you in the dining room watching TV?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m not going to tell you. I’ll tell people later at an appropriate time. Just so you understand, however --

KRISTEN WELKER:

What did you do when the Capitol was --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And I made beautiful statements.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– under attack, though —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Let me just tell you --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– in the moment that the Capitol was under attack?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Did you see the statements I made in the Oval Office and just outside of the Oval Office?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Absolutely. I was there that day.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

“Go home. Our police are great. We love our police. We love everybody. Go home.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

That was --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

This was --

KRISTEN WELKER:

That was before --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– a beautiful statement --

KRISTEN WELKER:

That was at 4 o’clock in the afternoon --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

When that statement was made --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– more than --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– I don’t know --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– three hours after the attack --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But there --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– started --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– but there were tweets that were put out --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– Mr. President --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– before that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to know who you called on that day.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

By the way, Nancy Pelosi --

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to talk about that day.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t have -- why would I tell you that? Listen. Nancy Pelosi --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Don’t want to talk about that?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– was in charge of security. She turned down 10,000 soldiers. If she didn’t turn down the soldiers, you wouldn’t have had January 6th.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you call military or law enforcement?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

What?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you call military or law enforcement at the moment the Capitol was under attack?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m not going to tell you anything. I told --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Let me put it this way. I behaved so well. I did such a good job. Nancy Pelosi turned down 10,000 soldiers. If she didn’t do that --

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Nancy Pelosi doesn’t have the authority that you had as commander and chief, though.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– and now I understand — I understand that the police testified against -- listen to me, Kristen. Listen to me. I understand that the police testified against her — the chief, very strongly against her. Capitol Police, they’re great people. They testified against her. And they burned all the evidence. Okay? They burned all the evidence.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They destroyed all the evidence about Nancy Pelosi.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What do you say to people who wonder why you -- you, as commander in chief, you have authorities that Nancy Pelosi doesn’t have, as commander in chief.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. She has authority over the Capitol.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Why didn’t you send help in that moment, though?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Uh, frankly, just so you understand, I assumed that she took care of it. She turned down --

KRISTEN WELKER:

But when you realized that the National Guard wasn’t coming? When help wasn’t coming?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, you don’t realize anything until quite a while. National Guard are not coming. I asked her to be there three days in advance. And she turned it down.

KRISTEN WELKER:

She says that that request was never officially made, just so you know.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, stop it. Let me just tell you --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me ask you about pardons --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

The mayor of D.C. —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

The mayor of D.C. gave us a letter, saying that she turns it down, okay? We have it. Nancy Pelosi also was asked, and she turned it down. The police commissioner of Capitol Police —

KRISTEN WELKER:

I’m talking about the day of, though.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Wait a minute.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Yeah.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Capitol Police said that he wanted it. And Nancy Pelosi wouldn’t accept it. She’s responsible for January 6th.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s — Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Nancy Pelosi is responsible. And the J6 Committee refused to interview her.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, you’re the president though. You have — You have authorities that no one else has, as the commander in chief. Do you think you showed leadership on that day?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yes. Absolutely. I did.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And I showed calm. Nancy Pelosi is responsible for the security. And she did a terrible job. And, by the way --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Looking forward--

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– from what I understand, they burned all the evidence.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay. She says she never got an official request. They say they didn’t.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, she’s full of it.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But that’s what you’re saying.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Really?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let talk about --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And her daughter taping her. Her daughter happened to be documenting what --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about potential pardons --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

A documentary worker just happened to be there taping her at the time?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about potential pardons because a lot of your supporters are wondering about that. Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio was sentenced to 22 years in jail. Now that you know what the sentence is, 22 years in jail, will you give him a pardon?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Are you ready?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Will you give other Proud Boys a pardon?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t know him. I never met him. I never heard of him until I started reading this stuff.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Will you pardon him?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But I want to tell you: He and other people have been treated horribly. Antifa killed people, and those guys didn’t even get tried in many cases.

KRISTEN WELKER:

There’s no evidence Antifa was there.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They put these guys in jail for 17, 18, and 22 years. They didn’t kill anybody. Some of them never even went into the Capitol. Some of them weren’t even in D.C. And they got a 22- or a 17-year sentence. 16, 18, 15, 22.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, more than 1,000 people have been charged, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah. 1,000 people. How many people — let me ask you this. How many people were charged for destroying Portland? How many people were charged for burning down the police precinct and the courthouse in Minneapolis?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Will you give him a pardon? Will you pardon him, though? Will you pardon him?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’d certainly look at it. I’d look at that. And I’d look at all the other people that have suffered, the J6 people.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, let me ask one final question --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

People — people that went there.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– and let’s move on to foreign policy.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

That didn’t even go into the building have suffered gravely. And you have to say one system of justice, right? You take a look at what’s gone on in Portland. They burned down the city. The city is in shambles to this day. The store owners don’t even rebuild storefronts anymore. They put up two-by-fours.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to move on to foreign policy, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But why do you do that?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me just ask you one more question.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Why do you give me a horrible question and then you don’t let me answer it? You’re off to a bad start, I’m telling you.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, I just — I want to make sure we get to talk about foreign policy as well.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, but I don’t mind. I have all the time in the world.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You do? Okay.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I have all the time in the world. Why is it that the people, Antifa people, and very bad people, that burned down Portland, burned down Minneapolis, burned down so much — and New York City, what they did in New York City — and they were barely charged? And, yet, the people in Washington in some cases never even went into the building. They’ve been persecuted. They’ve been persecuted.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, the people who were charged on January 6th, some of them were charged with sedition. Some of them were charged for violating the Capitol —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And we’ll take a look at everything. But many of these people have been persecuted, what they’ve done to them.

KRISTEN WELKER:

They — your supporters? Your supporters, you’re talking about?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

And they didn’t do this to the people that burned down — you take a look at Portland. It’s like a burned-down hulk of a city, including the federal courthouse.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, if you were re-elected, would you pardon yourself?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I could’ve pardoned myself. Do you know what? I was given an option to pardon myself. I could’ve pardoned myself when I left. People said, “Would you like to pardon yourself?” I had a couple of attorneys that said, “You can do it if you want.” I had some people that said, “It would look bad, if you do.” Because I think it would look terrible. I said, “Here’s the story. These people are thugs, horrible people, fascists, Marxists, sick people. They’ve been after me from the day I came down the escalator with Melania. And I did a great job as president.” People are — great economy, great jobs, great this, great that, rebuilt the military, Space Force, everything. We — I could go on forever. Let me just tell you. I said, “The last thing I’d ever do is give myself a pardon.” I could’ve given myself a pardon. Don’t ask me about what I would do. I could’ve. The last day, I could’ve had a pardon done that would’ve saved me all of these lawyers, and all of these fake charges, these Biden indictments. They’re all Biden indictments, political. They indicted — they want to arrest their political opponents. Only third-world countries do that, banana republics. So, ready? I never said this to anybody. I was given the option. I could’ve done a pardon of myself. You know what I said? “I have no interest in even thinking about it.” I never even wanted to think about it. And I could’ve done it. And all of these questions you’re asking me about, the fake charges, you wouldn’t be asking me because it’s a very powerful, it’s a very powerful thing for a president. I was told by some people that these are sick lunatics that I’m dealing with. “Give yourself a pardon. Your life will be a lot easier.” I said, “I would never give myself a pardon.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Even if you were re-elected in this moment?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, I think it’s very unlikely. What — what did I do wrong? I didn’t do anything wrong. You mean because I challenged an election, they want to put me in jail? I challenged an election. But, I challenged a crooked election.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So it’s not on your radar right now?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It was a rigged election. I challenged a rigged election. And now I’m going to win for a third time. And I just hope they have better vote counters.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s move on to foreign policy, Mr. President. I want to talk about the war in Ukraine. I want to, big picture, get a sense of how you see this conflict. Do you see the security of Ukraine as critical to the security of the United States?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay. Let me talk about it without interruption. All right? Ukraine would have never happened if I were president. If this election weren’t rigged, Ukraine would have never happened. You would have hundreds of thousands of people, including lots of soldiers, still living. The cities would be flourishing, or at least up. These are cities that can never be rebuilt again, certainly not the way they were, magnificent buildings all ripped down like a demolition site. It would have never happened for two reasons. Number one, and most importantly, Putin has a lot of respect for me. And he wouldn’t have played games. And I told him, “Don’t ever go in.” And he would never have gone in. This was only after I left that this happened. Likewise, President Xi would never ever be talking about Taiwan the way he’s talking about it right now. And they didn’t. They weren’t talking about it. It was only after I left. He would have never gone in. Equally as importantly, oil prices would have been at $40 a barrel instead of $110 a barrel. So he wouldn’t have been able to afford going in. He actually is the only nation that made money, because oil has been driven up so high by stupid people like Biden. Biden is an incompetent man. And what happened is oil. In fact, you’re going to hit a new high very soon again. That means Russia — Russia makes money from oil. Russia is going to make a lot of money. And because they’re making a lot of money, there’s no reason for them to settle other than humanitarian reasons. And let’s not assume people are going to be so humanitarian. So, Putin would have never gone in, because oil was at $40 a barrel. And he wouldn’t have been able to afford to have gone in. At $100 a barrel, he made a fortune. And that’s one reason. The other reason he wouldn’t have gone in is because I said, “Don’t go in. Don’t even think about it.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Just to that key question though, Mr. President, do you think that our security, the United States’ security, is linked to Ukraine’s security?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think that Europe has to do more. We’re in for $200 billion. They’re in for $25 billion. And it affects them more than it affects us. It certainly affects them much more than it affects us.

KRISTEN WELKER:

So you do think that it’s linked in some way?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think Europe is taking advantage of a stupid president.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You’ve probably —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Look. Look. Biden should say to them, “You have to equalize. You have to catch up.” You know, Europe is about the same size as our economy if you add them all up, add the countries up. It’s about the same size. And Biden should say to them, like I did with NATO — you know, NATO, they all owed money. I said, “Get your money in.” And we had over $430 billion put in almost immediately. And the head of NATO, Stoltenberg, secretary general, nice guy, he said to me, the most amazing thing I’ve ever done — and he said it publicly too. He said, “Bush would come in, make a speech, and leave. Obama would come in, make a speech, and leave. Trump came in and said, ‘You guys aren’t paying your bills.’” And I got them to pay. You know, they asked me something, which hasn’t been reported, but the media knows it. We had a meeting of the 28 countries, at that time 28 countries, and they said to me, “Are you saying, sir,” because I said, “You’ve got to pay your bills,” — “Are you saying, sir, that you won’t protect us against Russia if we don’t pay?” I said, “Sorry to tell you, that’s what I’m saying.” You know what happened?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Yeah.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They started sending us money like — and I was never given credit for it. But you wouldn’t even have a NATO if it wasn’t for me.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me ask you, Mr. President, about the strategy

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But here’s the thing. The European countries have to start paying their share, because we are having to do with Ukraine. Because we are $200 billion. And they’re at $20 or $25 billion. It’s so unfair.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let me ask you about your strategy though. Because you have said you want to end this war in 24 hours.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You saw the meeting between Kim Jong Un and President Putin. Do you think that complicates your strategy, if you were re-elected, to try to end this war in 24 hours?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, look, it would have been easier if the war didn’t start. And you’d have hundreds of thousands of people living, most importantly. But it would have been a lot easier if it didn’t. But I can get it done and I can get it done quickly.

KRISTEN WELKER:

How do you do it? Can you paint a picture for me?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

There’s another example. You talk about Kim Jong —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can you paint a picture? How does it happen?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– You talk about Kim Jong Un, right? I got along great with Kim Jong Un after the first month or two when we were sparring. But I got along great with him. We were in no danger. There was — President Biden said, and he felt even now, and President Obama told me when we sat down, Obama told me, and Biden still to this day, except I don’t think he knows, he’s only — he can’t put two sentences together. But President Obama told me, “Our biggest threat is from North Korea. We’re going to end up in a war.” We didn’t end up with a war with North Korea. We were going to make a deal. I would say I would have had a deal made with North Korea shortly after the election, had the election not been rigged.

KRISTEN WELKER:

How do you end this war though, talking of deals, how do you end this war in 24 hours?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I can’t tell you exactly. Because if I did — People understand, if I tell you exactly, I lose all my bargaining chips. I mean, you can’t really say exactly what you’re going to do. But I would say certain things to Putin. I would say certain things to Zelenskyy, both of whom I get along — Don’t forget, Zelenskyy did something that was very honorable. They asked him — It didn’t stop these animals from impeaching me. But, you know, one of those things. They asked him, “Did Trump do anything wrong?” He said, “Absolutely not. It was a very normal phone call.” You can’t say that about Biden’s call, because Biden, what he did was horrible with a prosecutor. But, he said something that was very honorable. He could have grandstanded and said, “Oh, I felt threatened.” He said that “President Trump did absolutely nothing wrong on the phone call.”

KRISTEN WELKER:

Some people hear you say you’re going to end the war in 24 hours and they worry that means President Putin is going to get to keep the territory he’s unlawfully claimed.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no, no, no. I’d make a fair deal for everybody. Nope, I’d make it fair.

KRISTEN WELKER:

It doesn’t mean that? It wouldn’t be a win for Putin?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know, that’s something that could have been negotiated. Because there were certain parts, Crimea and other parts of the country, that a lot of people expected could happen. You could have made a deal. So they could have made a deal where there’s lesser territory right now than Russia’s already taken, to be honest. And you could have made a deal where nobody was killed. They had a deal. They would have had a Ukraine country. Now nobody even knows if Ukraine is going to be totally taken over. I will say this: something’s going on, and it’s not good for Ukraine. Because the news is no longer reporting about the war. The fake news. They don’t report about the war anymore. You don’t find much reporting. That means that Ukraine’s losing. Okay? I see very little reporting from NBC, your network. I see very little reporting from NBC, ABC, from CBS, from anyone about the war. It used to be you’d go and you’d watch, even a couple of months ago, you’d watch all of this great strategy. The Spring Offensive never happened. Ukraine’s Spring Offensive never happened, because they were met with a wall of armaments and bombs.

KRISTEN WELKER:

President Putin’s worried people are losing interest — President Zelenskyy’s worried that people are losing interest in this war, as you’re saying.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, no, I’m just saying —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, how would — would it be a top priority for you?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I’m not seeing anything about the war anymore. To me, that means that — probably because the press is fake and very discredited — that would mean that -- You know, look, here’s my attitude on the war. I just want people to stop being killed. You know, I was asked by that ridiculous CNN group during my town hall, “Whose side are you on?” I said, “I’m on the side of people stop being killed.” I don’t want to see people killed. They’re being killed by the thousands and thousands and thousands. And that’s the side I’m on, I don’t want — And you know what? People like that answer, to be honest. And I stay with that same answer. I want people to stop being killed.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to ask you about something President Putin said about you this week. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. This was very recent. President Putin said, quote, “We surely hear that Mr. Trump says he will resolve all burning issues within several days, including the Ukrainian crisis. We cannot help but feel happy about it.” What do you make of that? Do you welcome this support?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I like that he said that. Because that means what I’m saying is right. I would get him into a room. I’d get Zelenskyy into a room. Then I’d bring them together. And I’d have a deal worked out. I would get a deal worked out. It would’ve been a lot easier before it started. Essentially, for four years, I kept them from doing anything. Because you know what? I will tell you this. I never said this. Ukraine was the apple of his eye. I said, “Don’t ever do it. Don’t ever do it.” He would have never done it. But again, oil prices. He wouldn’t have done it because of me. But oil prices. The prices were so high that he had so much money. So he had all this money to prosecute the war. The one who drove up the prices was Biden.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Given that President Putin has bombed maternity wards, 20,000 kids kidnapped from Ukraine by Russia. Mass graves.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s all terrible. It’s all terrible.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Do you welcome his support, his all but endorsement?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Look, I had a very good relationship with him. And yet nobody was tougher on Russia than me. I stopped Nord Stream 2. You never heard of Nord Stream 2. That was the pipeline until I got involved. I said, “Nord Stream 2.” People that were sophisticated, military people, and political people never heard of Nord Stream 2. I had it ended. The pipeline was dead. Biden came in and he approved it. There was nobody tougher than me with Russia. And yet I got along with Putin. Let me tell you, I got along with him really well. And that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. He’s got 1,700 nuclear missiles. And so do we. But, look, that’s a good thing. Getting along is okay. But I got along through strength. And the war would have never happened. The war would have never happened. Now what’s happened, it’s so bad, the oil price is so high, it’s hard to get it stopped. The oil price is so high. When he goes above $50 and $60 a barrel, he makes a lot of money on the war. Now, it’s a humanitarian thing. It’s a lot of different reasons. But I will get that war stopped very, very quickly.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to talk about another region that you’ve talked about.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s too bad we have to wait so long.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Let’s talk about another region you talked about: China. If you were to cut a deal between President Putin and President Zelenskyy, do you run the risk of emboldening China to invade Taiwan?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No. Not at all. Because China, he’s another one I got along to, until we had the China virus come in. Once Covid came in, okay? It was like — And I made a great trade deal with China, one of the greatest deals ever made for the farmers and for the manufacturers, $50 billion a year. It was a great deal. I don’t even talk about it. Because once Covid came in, it was, like, I didn’t want to talk about anything. I was a much different person. What happened to this world, not our country, the whole world. What happened with Covid. And it just shouldn’t have happened. It shouldn’t have happened. What happened, what China did to the world was so bad. But I had a great relationship with --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you send troops to Taiwan?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I had a great relationship with President Xi, a really great relationship. And he was going to stop fentanyl from coming in. He was going to do a lot — He was going to criminalize it if you made it. You know, in China, they have a death penalty for drug dealers. He was going to make that with fentanyl dealers too. But then the election didn’t work out and he never had to do that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I know you’ve been asked this, but very quickly, if China were to invade Taiwan, have you made a determination, again, since voters are about to go to the polls, would you send the U.S. military into Taiwan if President Xi were to invade? President Biden says he would.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I won’t say. I won’t say. Because if I said, I’m giving away — You know, only stupid people are going to give that — I heard the other day, DeSanctimonious said something about he was willing to do this or he was going to do that. I say, “Well, why is he saying the strategy?” You can’t say that. So when you ask me that question, I would never say that. Because you give away all your options.

KRISTEN WELKER:

But you don’t take it off the table?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t take anything off the table, no.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I want to do a border question, if okay, and then move to just a quick final round.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, hold on, hold on. I’ve got a lot of meetings coming up. I mean, we’ve been doing this for —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Just one or two more questions and we’ll wrap it up.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I can go another couple of minutes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’ll do a border–

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

But I really, I find it very nice and very challenging. But I can’t — You know, I have all those people waiting.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’ll do two more.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’ll do it quick. Because I know that you’re going to want to talk about this. If elected, you say you would order the Defense Department to use special forces to inflict maximum damage on drug cartels.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I didn’t say that. No. People said I said that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Okay, what would you do?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I didn’t say that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What would you do?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I wouldn’t tell you what I’d do. Why would I say that? Because, again, you don’t want people to know your strategy. Now people said, they leaked and said things that I said this, or I said that, or I was going to hit them with Patriot missiles, the drug dealers in Mexico. But I will — I will say — and horribly — that they kill 250,000 people in the United States every year. You know, you never hear that number. You hear 100,000. I think it’s much more. They destroy families. Because when you lose a son or a daughter to fentanyl, or a wife, or anybody else, but when you lose a son or daughter, your life is destroyed. Their lives are destroyed. They’ve destroyed so many families. It comes through Mexico. Something’s got to be done. If we were in war, we wouldn’t lose 250,000 people. We’re losing more people than you lose in just about any war that we’ve ever had. And we lose them on a yearly basis. Something has to be done. And it has to be done fairly quickly.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Ron DeSantis says he’s in this race to finish the border wall. What do you say to that and to Republican voters?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I built — I built five hundred miles of border wall. It was great. It was just what — As you know, the border control board, and everybody else. Border patrol, I had them in my office. I wanted to do — We were going to do concrete planks, 40 feet high. They didn’t want that. They wanted to see through it. They want it to be steel, concrete, and rebar. I did everything. I gave them the wall that they wanted. You know, we tested it. We had mountain climbers test the ones that — That’s the wall we built. I built almost 500 miles of wall. We were then going to build another 200 miles of certain areas that all of a sudden people were coming into areas that they couldn’t come into anymore. And we were all set to do that. It was all bought. And all Obama had to do, all Biden had to do — it could be Obama too, because a lot of people think he’s calling the shots, so who knows. But all Biden had to do is go out and put it up. And he not only didn’t put it up, he took it off the site, and they put it in yards hundreds of miles away, so that Texas and Arizona couldn’t get it. I had the safest border in history. I had the best border in history. We had the lowest drug numbers for years, and years, and years, decades. We had the lowest drug numbers. We had the lowest human trafficking numbers. We had the least number of people coming across. All he had to do was go to the beach, like he does all the time. If he went to the beach and didn’t do anything, we’d have a great border right now.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Final question, Mr. President. You have met with prime ministers, kings, queens, dictators. You’ve seen it all. As you think about the possibility of a second term, do you still think that democracy is the most effective form of government?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I do. I do. But it has to be a democracy that’s fair. This democracy is — I don’t consider us to have much of a democracy right now. They indict their political opponents. Free speech is shot, because the press is very dishonest, very dishonest. Even the way you fight me on simple questions like, you know, the border, and this. You fight me so much. And I say, “Why are you fighting me?” Do you know, when I first ran, the approval rating of the media was very high. And now it’s very low. It may be below Congress, which is pretty hard to believe. People understand what’s going on. We need a media that’s free and fair. And frankly, if they don’t have that, it’s very, very hard to straighten out our country.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Did you feel as president you had enough power though? If you were re-elected, would you try to find ways — for example, there’s a report you’re looking into firing potentially people within the federal government who aren’t necessarily perceived to be loyal. Would you need more power if you win?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, just so you understand, that’s what the Democrats do. Okay? They do it in spades.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Would you do that?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They do it at a level that you wouldn’t believe. I mean nobody has ever done that. No, I wouldn’t do that. I want great people, whether they’re Republican or Democrat. I want great people. But I want people that love our country, not people that hate our country.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Anything else you’d like to say?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I think that’s good. I think we did — I think we did a lot.

KRISTEN WELKER:

One last, is there any scenario by which — because Ron DeSantis says if he were elected, he’d have two terms and you’d only have one more term. Is there any scenario by which you would seek a third term in office?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No. Just so you understand, when DeSantis says that, that means he’s not your man. He’s not your man anyway, because he’s a very untalented guy. And he’s proven that. He started out, everybody was talking to him. After I worked them over a little bit, he’s gone down the tubes. I think he’s going to end up being number three or four. He just had a poll today. He was number four. And by the way, the one that was number two was 59 points behind. So, you know, it’s very interesting. But when somebody says, “Eight years. We need eight years.” No. In six months to a year, many of the problems, almost all of the problems that you and I have just spoken about, will be solved. Anybody that says they need eight years, you don’t want that person.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you, Mr. President. I really appreciate it.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Thank you very much. And good luck.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We went all around the horn today. And I appreciate it very much.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yes, we did.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Good luck for many years.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you. Thank you for giving me a little extra time. I really appreciate it.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Good. Thank you very much.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you. If you have time, I think we want to get one little shot of us walking together.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Sure.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can we just get us walking out together?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah, we can do that.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can we just walk out together?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Mr. President, have you thought about a potential running mate if you were to win the nomination?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I like not to think too much about that. You always do a little bit, but I really don’t think it’s time. I want to win. And, you know, it’s very interesting about running mates. When you get down to a vice president, they said, “Nobody’s ever made that kind of a difference. It’s still about the person that’s going to be president.” But it’s an --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Are you leaning --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– important decision.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Are you leaning toward a woman?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I like the concept, but we’re going to pick the best person. But I do like the concept, yes.

KRISTEN WELKER:

A lot of people noticed when Governor Noem endorsed you there were Trump/Noem signs. Do you have your eye on her?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I do. I think she’s fantastic. She’s been a great governor. She gave me a very full-throated endorsement, a beautiful endorsement actually. And, you know, it’s been a very good state for me. And certainly she’d be one of the people I’d consider, or for something else maybe. But we have a lot of people. We have a lot of great people in the Republican Party.

KRISTEN WELKER:

A lot of your supporters are asking when I’m out on the trail, “When are we going to see the first lady out on the trail?”

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Oh, I see. She’s right now with Barron in school. She loves that boy. And she’s very popular. She actually is. Oh, and she’ll be with us. She’s very, very supportive.

KRISTEN WELKER:

We’ll see her on the trail, soon?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yes. Soon? Yeah, pretty soon. When it’s appropriate, but pretty soon. She’s a private person, a great person, very confident person. And she loves our country very much. She’ll be, she’ll be — at the appropriate time she’ll be out there. And honestly, I like to keep her away from it. It’s so nasty and so mean. And a lot of it’s me. I say, “Just, I don’t want you coming. It’s such a nasty situation.” But when we have rallies, the rallies are bigger than ever, better than ever. You saw in South Carolina we had 82,000 people, the biggest rallies we’ve ever had. There’s a spirit in the country now the likes — look, 2016 was incredible. 2020 was actually much better. We got many more votes, millions and millions more votes. But I’ve never seen spirit like I see right now. And I really believe part of that is maybe because they love what we’re saying, but a big part of it is that our country is doing so badly. Our country is doing so badly with the borders, with the military, with the lack of respect all over the world. And I think that probably adds to what we’re doing.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can I ask you a question? I don’t think you’ve ever gotten this question. But it’s been reported that you left a note for President Biden when you left office.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s true.

KRISTEN WELKER:

It’s true?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Can you give us a little sense of what you said?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

You know, it’s interesting. He actually said it’s up to me to do, and I actually think it’s up to him to do. I left him a note. I think it was very — it was a nice note. I took a lot of time in thinking about it. I’d love him to do a great job, even if it was very bad politically. I would rather have him have wonderful borders, have no wars, have no Ukraine problems, which, you know, to a large extent was caused by him. Because if you looked at the rhetoric before that war started and the things that were said, I would much rather be in a position where the country’s doing great now, we had him as a president. But the country’s doing horribly. I don’t think the country’s ever been so disrespected. So many bad things are happening.

KRISTEN WELKER:

When you look at the polls and you see that the majority of voters don’t want to see President Biden run again, and frankly they don’t want to see you run again —

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s wrong. See, that’s --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– Mr. President --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– where you’re wrong.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What do you make of those polls?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I just looked at a poll, and the Republican Party, 89% want me to run. And that’s the highest number that they’ve ever had. That’s higher than Ronald Reagan. The general poll, I mean, I think they love my policy. A lot of people say they love my policy but they don’t necessarily like me. I think they do like me. So in the Republican Party, I’m 89, 90, 92%. There’s a big lovefest going on. And when you look at these people running, they’re at 2%, 1%, 5%. One’s at 9%, DeSanctimonious. But, I’m at, you know, beating them by 60, 70 points. It’s unprecedented. Nobody’s ever seen a thing like that. And the voters themselves, I think they’re going to be very happy. Look, we have to turn our country around and very — I said it before: We have to make America great again.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What do you make of the age issue? Should there be an age limit to running for president?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, but there should be a competency. I’m all for the test. You know, I took a test two years ago, three years ago. And as the doctors said -- and it was in front of doctors and a whole big deal at Walter Reed, which is an incredible place. And I aced it. I get everything right. I’m all for testing. I frankly think testing would be a good thing. A lot of people say it’s not constitutional to do it. But I would be for testing, to test to make sure everyone’s just fine. But a lot of people say that can’t happen because of Constitution.

KRISTEN WELKER:

What do you say to people who say, “It is time for a new generation of leaders in this country?”

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, it’s always time for a new generation. But, you know, some of the greatest world leaders have been in their 80s. I’m not anywhere very near 80, by the way. And Biden’s not too old. I don’t think Biden’s too old. But I think he’s incompetent, and that’s a bigger problem. I don’t think 80 is old. I know people that are 89. I know a person 94, 95 who’s 100%. Bernie Marcus, take a look at Bernie Marcus, Home Depot. I mean, he has been amazing for so many years. He’s 95 years old. It’s really a level of competency, not the age.

KRISTEN WELKER:

You will be in your 80s if you’re reelected. Does that concern you at all?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I will be toward the end. No, because my father lived much longer than that. My mother lived much longer than that. So genetically, that’s a good thing.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Anything else you want to say, Mr. President?

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

No, I just wish you a lot of luck. You’re going to have --

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– great success —

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you, Mr. President.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

– I predict.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I really appreciate it. Thank you for all of this time. I know it’s a busy day and a busy time. And we really --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s okay.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– appreciate it.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Thank you very much.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Good luck with everything.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Thank you. Hopefully one of many interviews --

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s true.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Appreciate it.

FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Thank you very much.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Appreciate it. Thank you.

[admin]

Trump Broke the Law by Holding a Glock, Former FBI Counsel Says: ‘Like a Child, Except Much More Serious’
by Natalie Korach
The Wrap
Tue, September 26, 2023 at 9:06 AM MDT

[Librarian's Comment: TRUMP'S "RECEIPT" OF THE 45 SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL WHILE UNDER INDICTMENT IS A FELONY: "Under § 922(n), the fact of an indictment in any jurisdiction for any felony converts what can be assumed to be an otherwise lawful activity—the shipping, transportation, or "RECEIPT" of a firearm—into a crime." United States v. Laurent, 861 F. Supp. 2d 71, 80 (E.D.N.Y. 2011)

"RECEIPT" IS DEFINED: ("To take in one's hand, or into one's possession (something held out or offered by another); to take delivery of (a thing) from another, either for oneself or for a third party."). United States v. Laurent, 861 F. Supp. 2d 71, 85 (E.D.N.Y. 2011)

THE PLAIN LANGUAGE OF SECTION 922(n) MAKES IT CLEAR THAT TRUMP VIOLATED THE LAW: 18 USC Sec. 922(n) provides: "It shall be unlawful for any person who is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition or "RECEIVE" any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

Clearly, the pistol was shipped in interstate commerce, and Trump "RECEIVED" it.

SCOTUS has explained the purpose of the rule is "keeping firearms out of the hands of categories of potentially irresponsible persons, including convicted felons. Its broadly stated principal purpose was "to make it possible to keep firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetency." Huddleston v. United States, 415 U.S. [814] at 824-825, 94 S. Ct. 1262, 39 L. Ed. 2d 782 quoting S. Rep. No. 1501, 90th Cong., 2d Sess., 22 (1968). See also 114 Cong. Rec. 13219 (1968) (remarks by Sen. Tydings)

***

Andrew Weissman said the same thing a few minutes ago to Jen Psaki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_q3YCFxJiE

[ANDREW WEISSMAN] HE HAS BEEN ON AIR TODAY, ABOUT POSSESSING A FIREARM. WELL, YOU AND I WERE ON AIR TOGETHER WHEN IN THE D.C. CASE, THE MAGISTRATE JUDGE SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS, MR. TRUMP, WHEN YOU ARE OUT ON BAIL? DO NOT COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME." WELL, IT IS A CRIME FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS CHARGED WITH A FELONY, JUST CHARGED WITH A FELONY, TO RECEIVE A GUN. AND THERE ARE PICTURES ON TWITTER OF HIM HOLDING THE GUN.

[JEN PSAKI] DOES HE NEED A RECEIPT? WE DON'T EVEN KNOW -- HIS CAMPAIGN HAS COME OUT AND SAID HE DIDN'T PURCHASE, IT, BUT ...

[ANDREW WEISSMAN] BUT THAT'S NOT -- THE LAW IS NOT THAT YOU CAN'T BUY A GUN. THE LAW IS -- 922, TO BE A NERD -- 922(n), IS THAT YOU CANNOT "RECEIVE" A GUN THAT HAS TRAVELED IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. THAT JUST MEANS THAT IT'S TRAVELED ACROSS STATE LINES, AND A GLOCK HAS TRAVELLED ACROSS STATE LINES BECAUSE THEY ARE EITHER MADE OVERSEAS, OR THEY ARE MADE IN GEORGIA. BUT THEY ARE NOT MADE IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

[JEN PSAKI], SO, EVEN NOT PURCHASING IT, HE COULD'VE VIOLATED ...

[ANDREW WEISSMAN] EXACTLY. AND THAT HAPPENS A LOT. THERE ARE OTHER PARTS OF THE STATUTE THAT APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE CONVICTED. AND THEY CAN'T POSSESS A GUN. SO THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT THAT HE WOULD BE CHARGED FOR THAT SEPARATE OFFENSE. IT'S THAT WHILE THIS MOTION IS PENDING, WHAT JUDGE CHUTKAN WILL HAVE IN FRONT OF HER, IS NOT JUST THE [GENERAL] MILLEY STATEMENTS, BUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS, SORT OF FLAGRANTLY BOASTED ABOUT DOING SOMETHING. SO, TO ME, HE IS REALLY DARING THE COURT TO DO SOMETHING. IT'S LIKE A CHILD, EXCEPT IT'S MUCH MORE SERIOUS, BECAUSE IT'S SOMEBODY WHO'S OUT ON BAIL ON 91 FELONY COUNTS.

MSNBC legal analyst and former FBI general counsel Andrew Weissmann joined Jen Psaki Monday to discuss the legal ramifications of footage where former President Donald Trump held a gun on a campaign stop in South Carolina.

The Trump campaign walked back statements on Monday that Trump bought a Glock handgun while in South Carolina for a campaign stop. In a video posted on social media, Trump was seen holding the firearm and saying that he “wants to buy one,” which would be illegal since he is currently charged with 91 felony counts.

“It’s unfathomable that you’re sitting here having that conversation,” said Weissmann. “He has been on air today about possessing a firearm.”

Weissmann continued that the magistrate judge told Trump that the most important thing to do when on bail is to not commit another crime. “Well, it is a crime for somebody who is charged with a felony to receive a gun. There are pictures on Twitter of him holding the gun,” said the MSNBC legal analyst.

“Does he need a receipt?” questioned Psaki. “His campaign came out and said he didn’t purchase it.”

“The law is not that you can’t buy a gun,” said Weissmann. “922(n) is that you cannot receive a gun that has traveled in interstate commerce. That just means that it’s traveled across state lines.”

Weissmann noted that the Glock Trump was holding in footage must have traveled across state lines “because they’re either made overseas or they’re made in Georgia, but they’re not made in South Carolina.”

“So even not purchasing it, he could have violated,” Psaki replied.

“Exactly, and that happens a lot,” Weissmann said.

“The issue here is not that he would be charged with that separate offense,” the MSNBC legal analyst continued. But rather that Trump “has flagrantly boasted about doing something,” illegal.

Weissmann noted, “It’s like a child, except it’s much more serious because it’s somebody who’s out on bail on 91 felony counts.”

“Yes, you don’t get to live by a different set of rules,” Psaki concluded.

Elsewhere, Weissman broke down his arguments on X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter. Read those excerpts below.

Andrew Weissmann (weissmann11 on Threads)
@AWeissmann_
It is a felony for Trump to "receive" a firearm that has travelled in interstate commerce (the latter requirement is almost always satisfied as it just means the gun at some point after manufacture went from one state to another prior to the receipt). 18 USC 922(n).
Andrew Weissmann (weissmann11 on Threads)
@AWeissmann_
Trump spokesperson: Trump aids and abets a violation of criminal law while out on bail when he bought a gun -- and then retracts and says Trump did not buy a gun.
Time for a grand jury investigation.....how is this not AT LEAST as bad as what Hunter Biden is charged with?
3:56 PM · Sep 25, 2023

[admin]

John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump
by Jake Tapper
CNN Anchor and Chief Washington Correspondent
Updated 5:58 PM EDT, Mon October 2, 2023

John Kelly, the longest-serving White House chief of staff for Donald Trump, offered his harshest criticism yet of the former president in an exclusive statement to CNN.

Kelly set the record straight with on-the-record confirmation of a number of damning stories about statements Trump made behind closed doors attacking US service members and veterans, listing a number of objectionable comments Kelly witnessed Trump make firsthand.

“What can I add that has not already been said?” Kelly said, when asked if he wanted to weigh in on his former boss in light of recent comments made by other former Trump officials. “A person that thinks those who defend their country in uniform, or are shot down or seriously wounded in combat, or spend years being tortured as POWs are all ‘suckers’ because ‘there is nothing in it for them.’ A person that did not want to be seen in the presence of military amputees because ‘it doesn’t look good for me.’ A person who demonstrated open contempt for a Gold Star family – for all Gold Star families – on TV during the 2016 campaign, and rants that our most precious heroes who gave their lives in America’s defense are ‘losers’ and wouldn’t visit their graves in France.

“A person who is not truthful regarding his position on the protection of unborn life, on women, on minorities, on evangelical Christians, on Jews, on working men and women,” Kelly continued. “A person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about. A person who cavalierly suggests that a selfless warrior who has served his country for 40 years in peacetime and war should lose his life for treason – in expectation that someone will take action. A person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.

“There is nothing more that can be said,” Kelly concluded. “God help us.”

In the statement, Kelly is confirming, on the record, a number of details in a 2020 story in The Atlantic by editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg, including Trump turning to Kelly on Memorial Day 2017, as they stood among those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq in Section 60 at Arlington National Cemetery, and saying, “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?”

Those details also include Trump’s inability to understand why the American public respects former prisoners of war and those shot down in combat. Then-candidate Trump of course said in front of a crowd in 2015 that former Vietnam POW Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican, was “not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.” But behind closed doors, sources told Goldberg, this lack of understanding went on to cause Trump to repeatedly call McCain a “loser” and to refer to former President George H. W. Bush, who was also shot down as a Navy pilot in World War II, as a “loser.”

CNN reached out to the Trump campaign Monday afternoon, telling officials there that a former administration official had confirmed, on the record, a number of details about the 2020 Atlantic story, without naming Kelly, and seeking comment. The Trump campaign responded by insulting the character and credibility of retired Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Mark Milley, who had nothing to do with this story.

The Atlantic article also described Trump’s 2018 visit to France for the centennial anniversary of the end of World War I, where, according to several senior staff members, Trump said he did not want to visit the graves of American soldiers buried in the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery near Paris because, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” During that same trip to France, the article reported, Trump said the 1,800 US Marines killed in the Belleau Wood were “suckers” for getting killed.

And Kelly’s statement adds context to a story in the book “The Divider: Trump in the White House, 2017-2021,” by Susan Glasser and Peter Baker, in which Trump, after a separate trip to France in 2017, tells Kelly he wants no wounded veterans in a military parade he’s trying to have planned in his honor. Inspired by the Bastille Day parade, except for the section of the parade featuring wounded French veterans in wheelchairs, Trump tells Kelly, “Look, I don’t want any wounded guys in the parade.”

“Those are the heroes,” Kelly said. “In our society, there’s only one group of people who are more heroic than they are – and they are buried over in Arlington.”

“I don’t want them,” Trump said. “It doesn’t look good for me.”

The story squares with another recent story from Goldberg in The Atlantic, a profile of retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley, in which Trump does not react well to seeing severely wounded Army Captain Luis Avila singing “God Bless America” at a welcome event for the new chairman. “Why do you bring people like that here? No one wants to see that, the wounded.”

Kelly’s statement also refers to a remark Trump made in response to that same article, which describes Milley, in the closing days of the Trump presidency in 2020, receiving intelligence that the Chinese military feared Trump was about to order a military strike on it. Milley, in a call authorized by Trump administration officials, reassured his Chinese counterparts that such a strike was not going to happen.

That call was first reported in 2021 in the book “Peril” by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa, but Trump said this past week on his social media site that the call was “an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been DEATH.”

Asked for reaction to the suggestion that he deserves execution, Milley told Norah O’Donnell of “60 Minutes” that he wouldn’t “comment directly on those, those things. But I can tell you that this military, this soldier, me, will never turn our back on that Constitution.”

Kelly’s statement to CNN comes days after former Trump White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson sat down with CNN in an interview promoting her new book, “Enough,” and warned the public that “Donald Trump is the most grave threat we will face to our democracy in our lifetime, and potentially in American history.”

“Enough,” interestingly, contains a scene in which Hutchinson and then-White House communications director Alyssa Farah Griffin push back against Goldberg’s 2020 story. Griffin issued a statement to The Atlantic after that story posted denying the report.

Reached for comment over the weekend, Griffin said, “Despite publicly praising the military and claiming to be the most pro-military president, there’s a demonstrable record of Trump bashing the most decorated service members in our country, from Gen. Mattis to Kelly to Milley, to criticizing the wounded or deceased like John McCain. Donald Trump will fundamentally never understand service the way those who have actually served in uniform will, and it’s one of the countless reasons he’s unfit to be commander in chief.”

No other presidential candidate in history has had so many detractors from his inner circle. His former secretary of defense, Mark Esper, told CNN in November 2022, “I think he’s unfit for office. … He puts himself before country. His actions are all about him and not about the country. And then, of course, I believe he has integrity and character issues as well.”

Trump’s former attorney general, Bill Barr, told CBS in June that “he is a consummate narcissist. And he constantly engages in reckless conduct. … He will always put his own interests, and gratifying his own ego, ahead of everything else, including the country’s interests. Our country can’t, you know, can’t be a therapy session for you know, a troubled man like this.”

CNN’s Kristen Holmes contributed to this story.

[admin]

Trump Mar-a-Lago LIE Comes Back to HAUNT HIM [A multi-billionaire? A Forbes 400 billionaire? No way. Underneath it he's a 100 millionaire.]
by Michael Popok
MeidasTouch
Oct 5, 2023

Popok can’t take Trump’s lawyers’ lying to the people about how much his “trophy” properties are worth anymore. In his Hot Take, Michael Popok who has lived and practiced law in Florida and New York and visited Mar-a-Lago back in the day, explains why the trial team of Habba and Kise are “undereducated” when they discuss Trump’s businesses and his properties value, starting with Mar a Lago.”



Transcript

This is Michael Popok LegalAF. I can't take it anymore. That's why I had to put on these glasses today. I can't take the lying in the opening statements for the fraud trial of the century against Donald Trump and all the Trumpers that just started this week. finally it's here. I say finally it's here, it's only been a year. Leticia James brought her case in September of last year. she's trying her case -- at least the remaining parts of it -- she's already won on summary judgment now -- and they keep lying at every turn, the lawyers for Donald Trump -- Alina Habba -- understood -- Chris Kise -- whatever happened to you? -- about the value of Donald Trump's property and businesses. It's just lies. And I'm finally going to blow it up here. And I'm going to use Mar-a-Lago as an example. From a practicing Florida lawyer, and in New York, I'm uniquely qualified, I believe, and having lived in Palm Beach County, to talk about Mar-A-Lago land use and zoning restrictions that make that property not worth anywhere close to what Donald Trump's lawyers just said in their opening statement. I'm going to explain it here, right now, one place, Meidastouch, on a hot-take, another Popok hot-take.

Let's start with why I'm so fired up this morning over the lying. And I'm going to make an admission. Having watched Donald Trump in action since I was a young man, all the way till now, in his business practices -- I lived in New Jersey -- I watched him operate the casinos -- lived in New York -- watched them operate not a development company -- that's putting it nicely -- I would not call Donald Trump a successful real estate developer. You know who can call him a successful real estate developer? People that don't know him well, like Chris Kise and Alina Habba, and don't know what he's all about, and are being paid to say whatever they're saying. He is at best, in his family, a moderately successful real estate management firm and licensing firm about his name. He really doesn't build buildings, and never has, from the ground up, right? From a a giant hole -- you know, of a foundation, you know, below the surface of the earth, all the way to a Topper on the top of a building. That's not really Donald Trump. His father built a lot of apartment buildings in Queens, which is another section of New York, but not a New York developer, or even a worldwide developer. When you see Donald Trump's name emblazoned on buildings in brass or gold, it's likely a licensing deal, where he had very little role in the look and feel of the building. But they paid him a dollar amount in order to put his name on the building. That's called a licensing fee. Maybe he manages the building. Maybe he just looked at some of the furniture, fabric, and electrics, and said yeah, I like those, I don't like those. Use this furniture, not that furniture. That's it. But building a building? That means going to a bank, and getting a construction loan, a series of loans at different phases of the building, as it comes out of the ground. Or multiple houses across a plot of land. That he's not known for. Underneath the fraud that created this multi-billionaire is a reasonably commonplace 100 millionaire that has that business underneath. There's a reason that Donald Trump became an anchor or a host of the Celebrity Apprentice. Name for me -- I did this on another hot-take -- name for me -- I'll give you time -- the amount of successful billionaire real estate developers sitting in New York, or other places, that would think to host a reality TV show, or did? None. The reason Donald Trump did, is he was on the balls of his ass financially, having gone through three bankruptcies, including bankrupting a casino in Atlantic City, and being put on an allowance by the bankruptcy judge, and so he didn't have that much money. He had grandiose theories about himself, and mythology about himself, and big spending habits for him and his family, but a billionaire? A multi-billionaire? A Forbes 400 billionaire? No way. So that's the fraud, right? The avarice and greed of Donald Trump? Underneath it he's a 100 millionaire. But he doesn't like that, so he pumps it up 10 times, 50 times, 100 times, on his financial statement, and he did it -- let me give the example of Mar-a-Lago, once and for all from somebody that's actually visited Mar-a-Lago.

Salty our producer, can we get arrows? Okay. I've been there, and I remember the deal, because I lived in Palm Beach County when this happened. And I watched it. Mar-a-Lago was sort of a falling down mansion, right? -- like a Gray Gardens type mansion -- that was owned, I think, by the Post family, if I'm getting my numbers right, my math right. Palm Beach, the island of Palm Beach, the municipality of Palm Beach, which is on the beach itself, didn't know what to do with it. And Donald Trump came in, and for like no money -- I forget the purchase price, but it was really low I don't know if it was 5 million or 10 million. [10 million] I think it was even less than that. And he wanted to live there, but he also wanted to redevelop it as a club. It wasn't a club, it was a private home. And Palm Beach County has a bunch of clubs, and they didn't really want anymore. And they didn't want him living at it. So he had to make a series of commitments -- deed restrictions -- in the development of Mar-a-Lago, in order to get approved to live there. If he didn't, if he just wanted to tear it down, and put up something else, he probably could have put up a single family mansion. You know, it's 15 acres, so it was a big piece of property. But they weren't going to let him put like 15 homes on there. I mean, they might have at the time, 40 years ago, maybe, but he didn't want to do that. He wanted to keep the mansion, he wanted to do it on the cheap -- refurbish it as a club private club, and then live in it. And they were like "eh, living in it, we don't like the living in it part." Palm Beach County and Palm Beach itself, the city, and he, agreed to a bunch of deed restrictions about the development of the property, which lowered tremendously the ultimate value of that property. Indeed, restrictions in the real estate world, we say, it runs with the land. You can't get rid of them. And you can't get rid of, it's very hard to get rid of zoning and land use restrictions that you've agreed on as a condition of letting you buy the building. And that's what Palm Beach is all hot and bothered about. Palm Beach's current council, or commissioner, was probably like "thank God he's not coming before us right now, there's no way we would agree to do any of these things." The only way for that piece of 15 acres, which is arguably, you know, near the beach, and valuable, to have the value ascribed to it by Donald Trump and his lawyers, who don't know real estate at all, in their opening statement, would be if there were no deed restrictions, and no conservation easements. Meaning, Donald Trump got a tremendous tax break, because he said most of the 15 acres was going to be conserved as green space, not developed, which was a big sigh of relief to people in Palm Beach, because this isle of Palm Beach, they all have like gazillion dollar, tens of millions of dollars of homes. And they didn't want 15 new homes to come on the market, developed by Donald Trump, with a giant black and gold Donald Trump sign, and they certainly didn't want a tower of, you know, 30 40, 50 stories of condos, with hundreds of condominiums flooding the market, lowering their property value, and putting lots of people on the roads and infrastructure of Palm Beach. I mean they like their little enclave. And there used to be a joke that if they could roll up -- there's a two bridges that go between Palm Beach, the island, the rich enclave, sort of the Beverly Hills of that area, and West Palm Beach, where the working class lived and worked, that they could roll up the bridges at night, they would. But they can't. That's why, if you go to Palm Beach itself, the municipal beach, there's no place to go to the bathroom. There's no place to get a sandwich or a soda. Because they don't want the public to be there soiling their beaches, spoiling their pristine beaches. They want to walk out of their condos, or their houses, go to the beach, and go back, and not have to see anybody. And so that's the place that said, "you want to live there, that's weird. You got to give us all these restrictions." And that lowers the value.

Yes, I will agree with Alina Habba, that if you could use the property for its highest and best use, without regard to zoning law, land use law, deed restrictions, tax restrictions, and easements -- just all those things -- and you could develop the property freely, for whatever the land use and zoning -- or no land use and zoning -- would allow you, if you could just cram 30 houses on there to develop -- even though there's at least a one acre requirement per building lot -- if you could just put up a hundred story building in the middle of Palm Beach County -- although you never could -- if you could do all of that, it could be worth a billion dollars. Or if -- to use her phrase in the opening statement -- there's a buyer for it at a billion dollars -- that's real estate, not fraud. No, that's fraud. Because if anybody's paying a billion dollars for a property that's worth 50 million, then they're hoping that Donald Trump gets back into office, and they're trying to curry favor, and that's what Judge Engoron said in his summary judgment ruling in favor of the New York attorney general just last Tuesday, finding at the heart of the case that there has a been persistent fraud perpetrated by Donald Trump, and all the others, for years, that's put hundreds of millions of dollars in his pocket. It overinflated his net worth by billions of dollars. And he said, "yes" -- in a footnote -- "you might be able to find the hypothetical Saudi Arabian, or somebody from Dubai, or somebody from China, to buy the property at some rate that's not tied to the market, not tied to the buy and sell of the market, but that probably would be for influence pedaling, and influence buying, more than property value."

And that's where we are.

So there's two different Mar-a-Lagos. There's the fantasy Mar-a-Lago of Donald Trump, and his lawyers' creation, that exists in a universe of his own, without a town council, or commissioner, making land use and zoning regulations. Without a land use and zoning map. Or book, or code, that governs and regulates land use and zoning in Palm Beach County. Without a master plan, as they call it in Florida. Without deed restrictions that you've agreed to in order to live on the property. Without -- you can see all the things I've got to leave out -- without conservation easements that you've granted in order to lower your taxes, and promise that you'll keep the green space. If you could get that, if you had all of that, sure, 15 Acres in Palm Beach County, a prime location, not right on the beach, but off the beach, sure, it has value. It's probably several hundred million dollars.

I'll give you an example. 10 years ago a piece of dirt, just dirt, and this is 10 years ago, in Miami, off Brickle, on the water, to be used for a giant Tower, went for $50 million. And then they put a giant gazillion dollar building on it 70 stories high, and made themselves a billion dollars. So $50 million didn't really mean much. So yes, if you could develop 15 acres, without regard to law, zoning easements, deed restrictions, or anything else, it could be worth a lot more money than what it's currently worth. But then if you layer back on all of the restrictions I've just outlined, which which reduce, reduce, reduce the value, the use of the property, the appraised value of the property, down, down, down, then you're down to the 50 or 60 or $70 million, or whatever it is that the New York attorney general has subscribed to it. I'm not going down as low as the 18 or 20 million that the Palm Beach County Tax Assessor's office has assigned to it, cuz I'll be frank -- I lived in Palm Beach County. I've had houses that have been assessed. And in in Miami Dade County, the property assessor is usually behind the market. The market is usually a bit hotter than the property assessor. It could be off by up to 50%. But that's not what the New York attorney general is saying. We're not using the appraised value. And Engoron is saying, "I'm not using the appraised value of the assessor's office." They're using other math that gets it to about 50 to 60 million -- maybe 70 million tops. But not 780 million, right? Not the entire amount that Fox News just paid Dominion voting machines for their defamation. That amount. That's the amount of the miss between the value of what the property is really worth, of what Donald Trump and his people, in their opening statement, say it's worth.

And that's the fraud, right? Because he didn't want to be a 100 millionaire. He wanted to be a multi-billionaire, and beat his daddy. Because his daddy was a 100 millionaire -- Freddy Trump, right? -- when they were performing their own frauds back then. But that didn't content him. And since he had all his financial ruins, and all his financial difficulties, and his bankruptcies, he had to take the Celebrity Apprentice job to pump up his brand, to emblazon it, and stick it on buildings, on licensing deals -- not construction deals -- not development deals. And that is the fraud, and the PT Barnum, and the Bamboozle, of Donald Trump. And it always has been. And people that live and work in New York, that know him, and know people that know him, know that. It's just the American people who didn't know it, because he didn't let them know it. Because he didn't let them have his tax returns, or any of his financial disclosures, before he ran. There's a reason for that.

Think back. Why didn't Donald Trump, why wasn't he more transparent about his finances when he ran? We're seeing why he wasn't. Because it was all a big giant house of cards, a Ponzi scheme, built up on defrauding banks, and making them give him more money, to pump up his net worth than it was really worth.

I'm tired of hearing about Mar-a-Lago, and the property that exists in Donald Trump's mind, freed of any restrictions, zoning law, land use law, Master plans, easements, conservation easements, or anything else, where he can just, in a fantasy world, put up a 100 story tower, like he's developing in Dubai, and not on the Isle of Palm Beach. Or he can develop hundreds of houses in a place where you can only develop, tops, probably about ten.

So don't you be fooled. I'm not going to blow smoke or sunshine on hot-takes. I bring them to you about every hour on the Meidastouch Network, exclusively, one place, right here. And then on Wednesdays and Saturdays, if you didn't already know, I co-founded and co-anchor the leading podcast at the intersection -- talk about real estate -- the valuable corner of law, justice, and politics. I do it with co-anchors Saturday and Wednesdays. We put it on audio podcast platforms. And you can follow me on all things social media at MsPopok.

Until the next hot-take, till the next Legal AF, this is Michael Popok, reporting.

[admin]

Trump Gives Nuclear Secrets to Anthony Pratt
by Nicolle Wallace
Deadline: White House [4PM] 10/6/2023
MSNBC
Oct 6, 2023



Transcript

[Nicolle Wallace] hi there everyone. we made it it's Friday, and it's 4:00 in New York. a conversation
one spring evening at a ritzy private club in South Florida between an Australian businessman and a former
president is now the subject of blockbuster brand new investigative reporting. it is an episode that fits
into a years-long damning fact pattern for one Donald J Trump -- that is his
incredibly reckless and cavalier handling of the country's most sensitive National Security Secrets. ABC News was
the very first to report this: quote "former President Trump allegedly discussed potentially sensitive
information about U.S. nuclear submarines with a member of his mar-a-lago Club. it
was an Australian billionaire who then allegedly shared the information with scores of others, including more than a
dozen foreign officials, several of his own employees, and a handful of journalists. that is according to sources
familiar with the matter." the billionaire is named Anthony Pratt. you can see him right here in this 2018 photo from the
Sydney morning herald. he's at mar-a-lago in the photo. he reportedly spoke to prosecutors and FBI agents about his
conversation with the ex-president. here's what he told them according to ABC News: quote "Pratt described how
looking to make conversation with Trump during a meeting at mar-al-Lago in April of 2012, he brought up the American
submarine fleet which the two had discussed before. Pratt told Trump he believed Australia should start buying
its submarines from the US, to which an excited Trump, leaning toward Pratt as if
to be discreet, then told Pratt two pieces of information about U.S.
submarines: the supposed exact number of nuclear warheads they routinely carry,
and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian submarine without being
detected. Pratt reportedly described Trump's remarks to at least 45
other people, including six journalists, 11 of his employees, and 10 Australian officials. while it is unclear if what
Trump said was true, investigators reportedly asked Pratt not to repeat what Trump told
him. the episode could wind up playing a critical role in the classified documents case currently set to go to
trial in May of 2024, with Trump facing 40 felony counts related to retaining
National Defense information ,and obstruction of Justice. the New York Times reports
that Mr Pratt's name does not appear in the indictment accusing Trump of illegally holding on to nearly three
dozen classified documents after he left office, and then conspiring with two of
his aides at mar-a-lago to obstruct the government's attempts to get them back. but the account that Trump discussed
some of the country's most sensitive nuclear secrets with him in a cavalier fashion could help prosecutors establish
that the former president had a long habit of recklessly handling classified information.

an ex American president
discussing nuclear submarine secrets with a businessman at Mar-a-Lago is where we, in surreal fashion, begin the
broadcast today, with some of our favorite reporters and friends: ABC News Chief Washington correspondent, and the
author of the upcoming brand new book, "Tired of winning: Donald Trump and the end of the grand old party," Jonathan Karl is
with us. also joining us is former FBI Counter Intelligence agent Peter Strzok with me at the table, for the hour. MSNBC
legal analyst Andrew Weissman, a former top official with the justice department,

Jonathan Karl: this would
be, you know the proverbial pick your cliche, dumped in the shredder if you
pitched it as a Netflix show, tossed out if it were the plotline of your
first novel by an agent who said this would never happen, just take me
through one, what ABC reports, and two what In your assessment is the most significant piece
of this.

[Jonathan Karl] well it's significant this is part of the documents investigation and
this story as far as we know has nothing to do with an actual document it gets to what is really at the heart of that case
which what you just spoke about and that is how Trump treated our nation's most
sensitive military secrets and it's hard to imagine Secrets more sensitive than
the capabilities of our nuclear AR all uh so uh what what we know Jack Smith
has spoken to this Australian billionaire on two occasions um and that
he has described how Trump explained to him the details at least what he purported to be the details on the
capabilities of our nuclear subs including that particularly sensitive piece of information which is how close
a an American nuclear sub can get to a Russian sub without being detected and
what what's remarkable to me besides Trump boasting and you know wanting to impress this Australian billionaire uh
with this tale is that uh in our reporting as soon as that meeting is
over I mean literally minutes after the meeting is over Pratt is overheard
telling others at maral Lago what Trump had just told him now I think this is an underappreciated part of the story that
means that the special counsil is talking to a maral Lago employee who who
uh not only is detailing what they witnessed but also uh in our reporting
told the special counsel that he was Disturbed uh by the fact uh that that
this information had been shared and was now suddenly being talked about right there you know uh presumably on the
patio uh at maral Lago uh so again not you know it doesn't this is nothing
about documents there's no suggestion that he was waving around a document but clearly the special councils
prosecutors saw this as significant and uh and directly related to their case
about Trump's uh handling of of our secrets not just our documents uh but
but America's most sensitive Secrets I mean John car well let me first ask you this were do are you able to answer
whether or not any submarines or Personnel were endangered by Trump sharing this information uh honestly no
I mean one one thing that that that's clear is we we again we don't know if this information that Trump was relaying
uh was accurate but we do know that it would so concerned the special counsel
that when they spoke to uh to Anthony Pratt they asked him not to repeat the
information now that was a little late he had already as you detailed uh shared it with some
45 people including three former Australian Prime Ministers so we so we
don't know we we don't know but um clearly it was highly sensitive
information and it was widely uh disseminated and and by the way you know
Pratt is somebody who became a member at maral Lago only after Donald Trump
became president uh and clearly used that membership to good effect I mean we
saw you know obviously he went to a state dinner at the white house uh he you know Trump came uh and and did did
an event at a new Factory that his company was opening uh in Ohio um so you
know we don't know that that that this got into the wrong hands uh but but it certainly got into a lot of foreign
hands specifically Australian hands well I mean I think you're getting it um a question that's loomed over what we know
about the maralago documents case since the beginning and I understand from SM investigators and lawyers that it's not
essential to prove motive but there's always been a big question what was his motive for keeping this stuff it seems that your reporting offer is a pretty
good theory business yeah I mean you know and the question here was he just
trying to you know make himself seem like a big shot you know here I'm the former president I can tell you the most secret stuff lean in you know I'm going
to tell you exactly what our nuclear subs do uh what did he what did he want out of Pratt who knows it it doesn't
really necessarily matter what his motive was the uh what what the special
counsel has uh on covered here is that the information was disseminated and
disseminated pretty widely uh you know we know the 45 uh people that Pratt
either spoke to about it or emailed about it which also by the way suggests that the special counsel has had also
got a hold of Pratt's emails um uh but but I mean who did those people uh tell
about I mean obviously you have a chain effect the stuff is now out there so is Pratt um John car a witness against
Trump in the trial well we we don't know yet he's he has as I mentioned he's he's
spoken to investigators twice at least twice um I would think that uh it's
highly likely that he would be a witness in this trial I don't it seems that this was a a piece of
information a string of great interest to the special counsel John let me put
you on the spot I mean I remember the day I remember where I was when um National Security staff started calling
me after Trump was in the oval with lavro and what they were backgrounding me or or or or telling me or trying to
reassure the Press was that they hadn't given him everything that that he'd only compromise a portion of the known Intel
because they hadn't armed him with everything ahead of lavro to me that proves knowledge of the recklessness
with which Trump handled Declassified information and there's always been this sort of sham excuse structure over it
well he can declassify anything he didn't I mean what it gave La was still classified and it they go through the
declassification after I mean if if the special Council were to want to
establish a yearslong pattern of trump disclosing State Secrets um at a point
where he either wasn't supposed to or it wasn't the plan or it hadn't been Declassified in a manner to protect us
sources and methods and US allies sources and methods the Litany of witnesses is 10 pages long is that
underway I mean it seems that they are focused uh from everything have seen on
the post-presidency period um but clearly and by the way you know your conversation also illustrates another
fact which is early on at the time of that Oval Office meeting with lavro and with kislak the Russian Ambassador and
those incredible photos by the way of that meeting which were released by the Russians um uh because the Russians had
their photographer on board and there was no American Press in there of course or anything like that um that was at a
time when um you know Trump had some pretty serious people that he had put in
place uh uh you know in terms of of running our intelligence agencies by the time you got to year four uh Rick
grenell was uh the acting uh Director of National Intelligence Rick Corell you
know essentially uh simply a political operative troll uh uh for uh for for the
Trump wing of the Republican party is suddenly has the single most important position in intelligence that's not
somebody that's holding anything uh back from the president out of fear it's going to be disseminated cash Patel uh
of course having a very high position at the National Security Council at that point and then later as the chief of
staff uh to the Secretary of Defense it became a very different a trump White House by the end but but I think that
there is another thing that you get at here Nicole which is the documents are one
thing but Trump was privy to information
that was you know he was the president of the United States by definition he he had access to the most sensitive Secrets
One thing I'll give you another little sneak preview on the book um on when
when when Donald Trump came to Washington for his inauguration in 2017 the day before uh he was sworn in he was
briefed uh something that's never been disclosed before but he was briefed on the nuclear football which of course is
something uh that would always be with him but but how it works what the operation is and
I'm told he took great interest uh you know Trump was not one that really liked to be brief about briefed about much of
anything but on this I'm told he took great interest in everything he could
find out about the nuclear football how it works you know that's of course the thing that goes with the president so
you can you know uh launch a nuclear attack in in in in in an emergency um he
took that knowledge with him he may not he may may or may not have had documents related to any of that but that is
knowledge that he took with him when he left the White House John carlot had two of his favorite words in it right
nuclear and football um yes what what what else can you tell us about his Keen
interest in his briefing about the nuclear football because it makes you know it makes again some of the excuses
that were that Trump's conduct and I'm thinking about his menacing tweets about Kim Jong-un you know oh he doesn't know
what he's doing it sounds like he knew exactly what he was capable of if he paid close attention wrapped attention
to the briefing on the nuclear football yeah I I I think it is the one area that Trump was keenly focused on from the
start it's something about it that captured his imagination and he often spoke about his uncle uh at MIT uh a
nuclear physicist and he would he would lecture uh his his own top military
advisers and tell them I know more about nuclear than you do I know more about nuclear than anybody there's there's
there's another scene uh uh that that I've described in in in a previous in a
previous book of of trump having getting a briefing from from the uh from his Pentagon leadership about the Pentagon
budget and uh he just gets off on a tangent uh about about nukes um and and
at one point starts yelling at um at at this point um you know I think Dunford
was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mattis was the Secretary of Defense and he's he's y yelling at them
saying I know more about nuclear than you do I know more than you do and you know what it is one thing he really did
pay attention to not just that first briefing on the nuclear football um but but he had a Fascination about that
which may explain in part why he brought those documents to Mar Lago Andrew Weisman there are a million
things to say um but while I peel my jaw off the table um tell me what you think
Jack Smith's interest is in Mr Pratt sure um so it's it's useful to think of
this in and of itself unrelated to the criminal case because there's and Pete's
going to I'm sure talk to you because of his what he's done in his career the just the the fact that the dni the
intelligence Community this is their worst nightmare um we've been talking so
much about as Jonathan said about documents being retrieved from Mar Lago but the information is still in
someone's head and the um intelligence Community as we know
from uh what happened right after the search is doing its own intelligence
assessment this this is the nightmare scenario um and um you know this is one
piece of information and you can see it chaining out and that is they're going to follow that to the ends of the Earth
you cannot think of anything and you're saying they're going to follow it to the ends of the Earth as part of an Intel
spill assessment exactly um they need need to know where any piece of
information and as Pete knows very well maral Lago was a honey pot um and so to
sit there and say it's only to the Australians it's not um there are many many more people there um and that's the
thing that the Intel Community has got to be all over um but that's hard they're going to be doing a total chain
of custody essentially but then there is the criminal component this this is but
this is I just want to make sure my view is this is horrendous um it is so detrimental to
our national security regardless if there ever was a criminal case right with respect to the criminal case it by
the way is if all of the reporting is accurate it is a crime to give over
information that is classified that is National Defense information it doesn't have to be a document it's enough of
it's the information doesn't have to be reified in a piece of paper um there are
many ways that this can still be Rel to the trial even though it's not charged
in the indictment um it certainly is going to be relevant to sentencing if uh Donald Trump is convicted because it is
a more serious offense um if you are actually disseminating the information
than just the risk of dissemination but it's also relevant to so many things that you were talking about which is if
Donald Trump were to say this is a mistake or no harm no foul I was keeping it under a locking key this is directly
relevant to refute that it goes to sort of motive it goes to intent absence of mistake all sorts of ways that the
government can use this it's not at all surprising though that you would not see
this particular witness's name in an indictment that would you would rarely want to out that in an indictment um but
it is evidence that could be very relevant to the case um Pete I want to bring you in on this um and I'm just
thinking of all the conversations I've had since the court approv search of Maraga with Sue Gordon where what what
Andrew is getting at is is is I think the sole crushing element of anyone who's worked in the intelligence
agencies also when you work in government um a skip isn't to it's not just for looking at documents it's for
having any conversation about anything that's secret you know we've talked about some of these things in the
context of what you do with paper but but you know to what Jonathan's to what John's reporting gets at to what
Andrew's talking about it's the knowledge and disseminating the knowledge with a businessman from
Australia that endangers the lives of intelligence agents assets and
allies and Nicole that's right I mean look there is no search warrant that is going to recover material that you have
in your memory there's no Men In Black Magic Pen that erases the knowledge that you have from the job so whatever might
be recovered documentary uh in documentary form that is never going to get to the things that Trump will always
carry around in his head and you know look it's very recent it's very current it's within the past several years there's a reason Joe Biden when he
became president said the tradition of giving ex-presidents intelligence briefings I am not going to do for
Donald Trump because I see that as a threat I see that as a security problem I mean I do want to touch a little bit
investigatively Jonathan mitching this a bit what's really important about this conversation is much like the
conversation about Mark Millie and the Iran War plans it was a conversation that occurred after Trump left the
presidency legally investigatively there's a huge difference as much as he was a security risk legally he can do
that as much as we don't like it but once he's left the presidency he does not have the authority to continue
talking about classified information so this is yet another post-presidency example whether or not it's chargeable
verbal disclosures of classified information can present particular challenges but it certainly creates a
pattern of activity and it speaks to motive but from a national security perspective you're right it's potentially devastating it is putting
our entire nuclear Triad at risk nuclear deterrence that we relied on for 75 years the most sensitive component of
that is our nuclear submarine force and by detailing that he is putting soldiers
at risk he is putting our national security at risk and know by the way every single Ally in the world not just
the Australians every nation in the world who is watching this in the event
of another Trump Administration how many of them are going to want to share sensitive intelligence with the United
States of America and this you know we haven't even touched on the efforts and the money and the resources that Russia
and China and every hostile Nation undoubtedly is putting into penetrating Marl Lago millions of dollars over years
to develop human sources to develop technical sources apparently that they can listen sitting on the balcony of the
ballroom of mar Lago to hear somebody relay classified information that the ex president of the United States just
shared with them so it's horrible from a national security perspective it just demonstrates an absolute lack of
understanding on the former president about or care for the National Security of the United States for the men and
women out there defending it and I just I don't know how many examples of this we're going to need
before the majority of the population says enough we can't ever have this man near a national security matter let
alone classified information again Pete you you're getting it so much of what is so Central here that that what what Jack
Smith charges in the Iran document is something that was classified at the time and Trump is no longer president so
it's a Smoking Gun in terms of proving all the elements of the crime of illegally retaining National Defense
information um I I have this section I'm going to sneak in a break and then I'm going to play it for all of you on the
other side no one's going anywhere um also when we come back the house speakers race is on Donald Trump is in
the middle of it again John Carl's new book also features some extraordinary exclusive new reporting on the last time
this happened the last speaker's race when Kevin McCarthy struggled more than a dozen times I think he got up to 15
times to win the vote what Donald Trump who was watching it all unfold from Mar Lago was actually plotting behind the
scenes plus what members of the Congressional committee investigating the Insurrection are warning about today
about the next potential house Speaker what they say about Jim Jordan's involvement and that I wanted to attack
Iran isn't it amazing I have a big pile of papers this thing just came up
look this was him they presented me this this is off the Record but they
presented me this this was him this was the defense department and
him we looked at some this was him this wasn't done by me this was him all sorts
of stuff it's pages long look wait a minute let's see
here these are the this was done by the military given to
me um I think we can probably get we we'll have to see yeah we'll have to try
to de she as president I could have deified now I can't you know but this
is I mean Pete the the clip just drips with so many incriminating statements there that he knows he's hanging on to
something that's still classified that he knows that when he was president he could have Declassified it and did not
um it gets to your point of sort of the power of these post-presidential um spills and leaks of classified
material right and you know it's certainly compelling because it's in his voice and an intimate setting it's a
great recording you can understand what he's saying but again this it's all these events speak to sort of the
question that you raised earlier why is he doing it and I think the reality is there are a variety of motives one with
the Millie Iran document it certainly appears that he was upset at Millie that he was trying to get back at him so he
wields this classified as something that he can use against other people so when
you look at this recent the the submar and alleged information that appears to me to be just a kind of G is isn't this
neat I'm 8 years old and nuclear is interesting to me and I know more about it than anybody else and I'm going to
show by disclosing this classified information and have some sort of ego gratification that I know all about it
so I think there are business reasons he does it I think there are political reasons that he keeps it I think that
there are potentially just straight ego reasons that he maintains all of it so you have this just toxic cocktail of
motivations and the problem is it's transparent to everybody it is transparent to a trained Russian
intelligence officer it is transparent to Vladimir Putin it is transparent to she it is transparent to anybody who is
trained in eliciting information how to get it out of Donald Trump and as a national security professional that is
what keeps all of us and you know current former lives awake at night because he is such an easy Mark and we
only are aware of the things that have made it into the media I am certain there are many many other instances that
we don't know about and that is the sort of thing thing that these damage assessments and risk assessments are
ongoing and trying to figure out and I worry may never get a complete picture of what has happened yeah and I mean
John to your point when you put um Rick grenell who you described as an operative and a troll accurately um you
you've operationalized the the conduct um I I we only have you um because we
got a peek at some extraordinary new reporting in your new book and I don't want to miss the chance to ask you about
it let me um Let me let me read from from the excerpt an excerpt released today from
the book tired of winning Donald Trump in the end of the grand old party you report that Trump had actually plotted
to be speaker back in January while he was publicly supporting Kevin McCarthy while Trump was soaking up the speaker
election drama from maral Lago you write this quote when on the seventh ballot Republican representative Matt Gat stood
up and announced his vote for speaker Donald John Trump the former president was mildly amused until that is he saw
the final vote tally being broadcast on all the networks the house clerk read off the vote totals at the end of the
round The Honorable Donald J Trump of Florida has received one laughter could be heard throughout the house chamber
Kates for his part realized that his stunt was embarrassing the ex-president who received just a single vote in more
than one round and stopped nominating him but the former president couldn't kick the idea that maybe he could win
the speaker election you add that Trump quote told at least two people the real problem was that Gates had not formally
nominated him for speaker if Republicans realized he was a real candidate for speaker Trump thought they would have
overwhelmingly voted for him so the next time around Gates formally nominated Trump for speaker the result one vote um
I hope you're ready you're gonna get the Billy treatment there's nothing worse than revealing through meticulous
investigative journalism that he was humiliated by the size of anything yeah
and and this was an outright humiliation it was in the 14th round and what I was
told is uh that that Gates absolutely did that at Trump's Direction one of my
sources said Trump proactively asked him directly asked him put my name in
nomination the other uh that he made it clear and Gates ran it by him before doing it and and then you got and that
one vote of course was Matt Gates that was the one vote he got so now you're seeing you know Trump once again I know
that this still stings that experience most of us have forgotten that Trump got one vote back in January so much has
happened since but he has not forgotten that and and that's why suddenly you see him now uh reinserting himself into this
race for speaker he's endorsing Jim Jordan but he's also uh suggesting uh
that he'd be willing to serve on a temporary basis uh as speaker and talking about how he will come up to
Capitol Hill uh to to help sort this thing all out next week we'll see if that really happens I I have my doubts
um but uh you know an extraordinary uh scene one one other aspect of this uh
Nicole is that for months uh people on the trump in the Trump wing of the party
you know outside influencers people like Steve Bannon had been pushing this idea that Donald Trump should be speaker of
the house and Trump had no interest in it at all why would he want to be up in Congress that's you know nothing but
then as he saw the drama unfold as one person said you know he he saw it this
could be the greatest reality TV show you know Celebrity Apprentice with a big ass Gabel that's when he suddenly
realized uh that this could be worth doing and then again one vote it would
be funny if it wasn't so sick and sad I mean there is a little legal problem though Andrew Weissman rule 26 of the
current GOP house rules prevents people under criminal indictment from serving in leadership I mean I guess they could
always change the rules for him they did go along with the Insurrection yeah but I mean how humiliating is that that you
would have a party that would change the rules to say it's okay if you're under indictment um that you can now be house
Speaker I mean they already have a George Santos problem um so yeah you got to let Santos stay if you change the
rules right yeah I mean this is I mean it's it's really un unspeakable um but
but just to Jonathan's reporting and again assuming the accuracy I think one
thing it's it's important for people to understand is I think as you know from your government experience when you are
in the intelligence community and you are given access to information that is
top secret and top secret compartmented information the kinds of things that we know are charged in the maralago
documents case um that may be the case here uh
uh this level and this sense of responsibility that you have um I still
remember the first time I was given that information um in a skiff I I wish I
didn't know it I was so concerned about not
inadvertently saying un it exactly um the idea that you would be Cavalier with
information that it it's it's not just about the safety of our military of
people in the State Department of assets overseas who are working with the government it's our safety um there's so
many things that the government does that keeps us safe um there's a reason
for that level of classification and it it's just to me it's I I can't get my
head around the idea of somebody who receives that who
doesn't understand its significance...

[admin]

Trump’s legal adviser Jenna Ellis in 2016 called him an ‘idiot’ and said his supporters didn’t care about ‘facts or logic’
by Andrew Kaczynski, Em Steck and Nathan McDermott
CNN
Updated 11:41 PM EST, Wed November 18, 2020

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Jenna Ellis has been one of President Donald Trump’s most ardent defenders since joining his campaign as a legal adviser and surrogate a year ago, but in early 2016 she was one of his toughest critics and deeply opposed his candidacy, according to a CNN KFile review of statements she made on her official Facebook page and in local Colorado radio appearances.

Ellis, an attorney and former law professor from Colorado, repeatedly slammed then-candidate Trump as an “idiot,” who was “boorish and arrogant,” and a “bully” whose words could not be trusted as factually accurate. She called comments he made about women “disgusting,” and suggested he was not a “real Christian.”

In one March 2016 Facebook post, Ellis said Trump’s values were “not American,” linking to a post that called Trump an “American fascist.” She praised Mitt Romney for speaking out against Trump, referring to him as “Drumpf,” – a nickname coined by comedian John Oliver after a biographer revealed Trump’s ancestor changed the family’s surname from Drumpf to Trump.

“Why should we rest our highest office in America, on a man who fundamentally goes back and forth and really cannot be trusted to be consistent or accurate in anything,” Ellis said in one April 2016 radio appearance.

In March 2016, Ellis attacked Trump supporters in a Facebook post for not caring that the Republican candidate was “unethical, corrupt, lying, criminal, dirtbag.”

In another post, she said his supporters didn’t care about the truth.

“I could spend a full-time job just responding to the ridiculously illogical, inconsistent, and blatantly stupid arguments supporting Trump,” she wrote in March 2016. “But here’s the thing: his supporters DON’T CARE about facts or logic. They aren’t seeking truth. Trump probably could shoot someone in the middle of NYC and not lose support. And this is the cumulative reason why this nation is in such terrible shape: We don’t have truth seekers; we have narcissists.”

In a statement to CNN on Wednesday, Ellis said, “It’s no secret that I did not support Donald Trump early in the primary process in 2015, like many others who didn’t know him, and I’ve always been straightforward with my opinions and I’ve always admitted when my opinion changes. I am glad to have learned that I was completely wrong about Trump back then and I’ve said that over and over publicly, as I saw him keeping his promises, and then eventually getting to know him personally.

“I appreciate KFILE showing clearly through past statements that I think for myself, and that my mind was changed based on fact and personal knowledge. President Trump is a sincere Christian, the best president in modern history, and made and kept his promises to the American people. I am proud to stand with him and his goals for the future of this country and all of its citizens,” she said.

In another Facebook post from 2015, Ellis, a conservative evangelical Christian, compared Trump to a “last days” bible verse and shared a post calling Trump “without love,” “treacherous,” “abusive” and “unholy.”

In a radio appearance from February 2016, she contended that Trump was not a genuine Christian because he was incapable of seeking forgiveness or repentance.

In another Facebook post from February 2016, Ellis criticized Trump’s attacks on the media and his wanting to change libel laws, linking to a Washington Post story that said Trump’s intent was “to destroy American democracy.”

“Trump cannot handle criticism,” she wrote. “This is insanely dangerous to the fundamental American value and inalienable right to freedom of speech.” She reiterated the belief on a radio show from February 2016 where she said Trump was “one of the greatest threats to our liberty” by seeking stricter libel laws.

In the same radio interview from February 2016, Ellis suggested that the GOP could engineer a brokered Republican convention to stop Trump from becoming the party’s nominee and compared it to the Electoral College.

“Trump absolutely should not be the GOP nominee,” she said.

Now, Ellis, who came around to supporting Trump in the 2016 general election after he became the nominee, acts as a top surrogate for Trump in media appearances, backing his baseless claims that he won the 2020 presidential election and helping lead the campaign’s longshot legal challenges to overturn the 2020 election results.

“President Trump is absolutely right to keep all legal options on the table as we evaluate results. He is committed to protecting election integrity and defending the Constitution. We are a nation of rules, not rulers,” Ellis tweeted the day after the election. She frequently retweets the President’s false claims on the election results and voter fraud and has refused to acknowledge President-elect Joe Biden.

[admin]

Ex-Chief of Staff Mark Meadows granted immunity, tells special counsel he warned Trump about 2020 claims: Meadows said Trump was "dishonest" on election night, according to sources.
by Katherine Faulders, Mike Levine, and Alexander Mallin
abc news
October 24, 2023, 4:11 PM

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YOU ARE REQUIRED TO READ THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE AT THIS LINK BEFORE YOU READ THE FOLLOWING WORK, THAT IS AVAILABLE SOLELY FOR PRIVATE STUDY, SCHOLARSHIP OR RESEARCH PURSUANT TO 17 U.S.C. SECTION 107 AND 108. IN THE EVENT THAT THE LIBRARY DETERMINES THAT UNLAWFUL COPYING OF THIS WORK HAS OCCURRED, THE LIBRARY HAS THE RIGHT TO BLOCK THE I.P. ADDRESS AT WHICH THE UNLAWFUL COPYING APPEARED TO HAVE OCCURRED. THANK YOU FOR RESPECTING THE RIGHTS OF COPYRIGHT OWNERS.

Former President Donald Trump's final chief of staff in the White House, Mark Meadows, has spoken with special counsel Jack Smith's team at least three times this year, including once before a federal grand jury, which came only after Smith granted Meadows immunity to testify under oath, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The sources said Meadows informed Smith's team that he repeatedly told Trump in the weeks after the 2020 presidential election that the allegations of significant voting fraud coming to them were baseless, a striking break from Trump's prolific rhetoric regarding the election.

According to the sources, Meadows also told the federal investigators Trump was being "dishonest" with the public when he first claimed to have won the election only hours after polls closed on Nov. 3, 2020, before final results were in.

"Obviously we didn't win," a source quoted Meadows as telling Smith's team in hindsight.

Trump has called Meadows, one of the former president's closest and highest-ranking aides in the White House, a "special friend" and "a great chief of staff -- as good as it gets."

The descriptions of what Meadows allegedly told investigators shed further light on the evidence Smith's team has amassed as it prosecutes Trump for allegedly trying to unlawfully retain power and "spread lies" about the 2020 election. The descriptions also expose how far Trump loyalists like Meadows have gone to support and defend Trump.

Sources told ABC News that Smith's investigators were keenly interested in questioning Meadows about election-related conversations he had with Trump during his final months in office, and whether Meadows actually believed some of the claims he included in a book he published after Trump left office -- a book that promised to "correct the record" on Trump.

ABC News has identified several assertions in the book that appear to be contradicted by what Meadows allegedly told investigators behind closed doors.

According to Meadows' book, the election was "stolen" and "rigged" with help from "allies in the liberal media," who ignored "actual evidence of fraud, right there in plain sight for anyone to access and analyze."

But, as described to ABC News, Meadows privately told Smith's investigators that -- to this day -- he has yet to see any evidence of fraud that would have kept now-president Joe Biden from the White House, and he told them he agrees with a government assessment at the time that the 2020 presidential election was the most secure election in U.S. history.

'We did win this election'

Trump was already questioning the integrity of the election months before Election Day. Then, within hours of polls closing on Nov. 3, 2020 -- as Trump was beginning to lose key states -- Trump claimed on national TV that it was all "a major fraud."

"Frankly, we did win this election," Trump declared.

Meadows told investigators earlier this year that he's long believed Trump was being dishonest when he made that statement, given the fact that votes were still being counted and the results from several states were not in yet.

Nevertheless, public testimony has shown that in the weeks after the election, Meadows helped Trump vet allegations of fraud that were making their way to Trump from people like Rudy Giuliani, whom Trump put in charge of legal efforts to keep Trump in the White House.

But Meadows said that by mid-December, he privately informed Trump that Giuliani hadn't produced any evidence to back up the many allegations he was making, sources said. Then-attorney general Bill Barr also informed Trump and Meadows in an Oval Office meeting that allegations of election fraud were "not panning out," as Barr recounted in testimony to Congress last year.

Meadows has said publicly that he believed "a number of allegations" still warranted "further investigation," and that he "hadn't reached a conclusion" on the election overall by late December.

Also by then, Trump had run out of legal options. When the U.S. Supreme Court on Dec. 11, 2020, denied his final court challenge, Trump told Meadows something to the effect of, "Then that's the end," or, "So that's it," Meadows recalled to investigators, according to sources.

Still, Trump wouldn't back down, insisting there was widespread fraud but that the Justice Department wasn't "looking for it," Barr recalled.

While speaking with investigators, Meadows was specifically asked if Trump ever acknowledged to him that he'd lost the election. Meadows told investigators he never heard Trump say that, according to sources.

On Jan. 2, 2021, Meadows helped set up the now-infamous phone call between Trump and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensberger, during which Trump pressed Raffensberger to "find 11,780 votes ... because we won the state."

Meadows has said publicly that he essentially introduced everyone on the call -- which is corroborated by transcripts of the call that were made public -- and he has said he was simply trying to help them resolve a dispute over Georgia's election results.

On the call, Trump mentioned allegations of fraudulent ballots hidden in suitcases, which the Justice Department had already taken "a hard look at" and debunked, according to Barr's testimony.

As described to ABC News, Meadows told Smith's investigators that, around that time, there were many times he wanted to resign over concerns that the way certain allegations of fraud were being handled could have a negative impact -- but he ultimately didn't leave because he wanted to help ensure a peaceful transfer of power.

'Sheer volume of falsehoods'

Aided by a ghostwriter, Meadows published his book, "The Chief's Chief," nearly a year after Trump left office.

"[T]he sheer volume of falsehoods that have been published about the president's time in the White House is astounding," the book says. "I consider this book a small opportunity to correct the record."

Trump even promoted the book himself, issuing a statement in December 2021 saying the book "rightfully spends much time talking about the large-scale Election Fraud that took place ... also known as the Crime of the Century."

But sources told ABC News that when speaking with Smith's investigators, Meadows conceded that he doesn't actually believe some of the statements in his book.

According to the sources, Meadows told investigators that he doesn't agree with what's in his book when it says "our many referrals to the Department of Justice were not seriously investigated."

Meadows told investigators he believes the Justice Department was taking allegations of fraud seriously, properly investigating them, and doing all they could to find legitimate cases of fraud -- and he told investigators he relayed all that to Trump a few weeks after the election, the sources said.

Similarly -- as described by sources to ABC News -- despite Meadows telling investigators that Giuliani never produced evidence of significant fraud in the election, his book refers to Giuliani's efforts to expose "the fraud, and the dirty tricks on election night."

"The people who rigged this election knew that eventually, these irregularities would come to light ... [So] they conducted the operation, then attacked anyone who dared ask questions about what they had done," his book says.

Meadows went even further while promoting his book on right-wing media in November 2021. When asked by a podcast host if he believes the outcome of the 2020 election was fraudulent, Meadows responded, "I do believe that there are a number of fraudulent states ... I've seen at least illegal activity in Pennsylvania [and] in Georgia" -- referring to two key states that clinched the White House for Biden.

Under the penalty of perjury, Meadows offered a vastly different assessment to Smith's investigators, telling them he's never seen any evidence of fraud that would undermine the election's outcome, according to what sources told ABC News.

'I guess these people are more upset'

The final report by the U.S. House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attacks on the U.S. Capitol accused Meadows of including "a number of intentional falsehoods" in his book, but the committee's report focused on allegations about Trump's actions on that fateful day, not claims about the election more broadly.

Portions of what Meadows told investigators appear to align with broader testimony that other top White House aides, including former Meadows assistant Cassidy Hutchinson, provided to the House committee, describing a president seemingly hesitant to take decisive action to stop the violent mob on Jan. 6, 2021.

Sources said Meadows confirmed that at one point, as the riots were unfolding, Trump got on a call with then-House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy, and told McCarthy, "I guess these people are more upset than you are."

However, according to what Meadows told investigators, Trump seemed to grow increasingly concerned as he learned more about what was transpiring at the Capitol, and Trump was visibly shaken when he heard that someone had been shot there, sources said.

Trump supporter Ashli Babbitt was fatally shot when she tried to break through a barricaded entrance near the House chamber. Other Trump supporters sustained fatal injuries that day, and a law enforcement officer died after trying to defend the Capitol.

Meadows has not been charged in Smith's federal case, he has been charged -- along with Trump, Giuliani and 16 others -- by authorities in Georgia for allegedly trying to overturn the election results in that state. Four of those charged have already pleaded guilty and agreed to testify for the prosecution, while the others, including Meadows, Trump and Giuliani, have pleaded not guilty and are awaiting trial.

Meadows sought to have the Georgia case against him moved to federal court, but that effort was denied. He is now appealing that decision.

From 2013 to 2020, Meadows represented North Carolina in Congress, where he also led the conservative House Freedom Caucus for two years.

Under the immunity order from Smith's team, the information Meadows provided to the grand jury earlier this year can't be used against him in a federal prosecution.

Trump has pleaded not guilty in the election-related federal case against him.

In response to these developments, a spokesperson for Trump's presidential campaign said in a statement, "Wrongful, unethical leaks throughout these Biden witch-hunts only underscore how detrimental these empty cases are to our Democracy and System of Justice and how vital it is for President Trump's First Amendment rights to not be infringed upon by un-Constitutional gag orders. Transparency and free speech are the only way to combat murky gossip."

"President Trump will not be deterred by Crooked Joe Biden's election interference and will continue to focus on winning back the White House and Making America Great Again," the spokesperson added.

A spokesperson for Smith and an attorney for Meadows declined to comment to ABC News for this story.

[admin]

Trump-loving Lawyer Michigan attorney, Stefanie Lambert CAUGHT RED-HANDED, Massive SCAM Revealed [She instructed the head of Cyber Ninjas an amateur forensic company hired by Arizona Republicans, to lie and say there was fraud and fake ballots used in Arizona when there wasn’t any.]
by Michael Popok
MeidasTouch
Oct 29, 2023

When MAGA does not have real evidence to support their “fraud in the election” led to Trump losing theory, they literally just forge it. Michael Popok of Legal AF reports on the prime example Michigan attorney, Stefanie Lambert, who’s been indicted. New text messages just revealed indicate that she instructed the head of Cyber Ninjas an amateur forensic company hired by Arizona Republicans, to lie and say there was fraud and fake ballots used in Arizona when there wasn’t any.



Transcript

this is Michael popok legal AF you know
what Maga does when they can't find
fraud in the election and they're trying
to make the argument there was outcome
determinative fraud that gave the
election of Joe Biden part of the big
lie or or the Big Fix or whatever you
like to call it you just make up the
evidence if you can't find fraud just
say there's fraud put it in your report
and have that publicized that's almost
as good if not good enough and that's
what we now have prime example Stephanie
Lampert Stephanie Lampert a
michigan-based lawyer but her nefarious
activities ranged far and wide from her
home territory she was an influence a
negative influence in Arizona Michigan
Georgia and Pennsylvania leading the
cause to try to find fraud in the
election did it on her own behalf and on
behalf of the Republican Party the Trump
campaign and the like she's been
indicted in Michigan but now what we
have coming to light is her close
relationship and her attempts to
influence and pressure Doug Logan the
founder of cyber Ninjas the company out
of Florida that had never done an
election audit before who was hired
through Lampert by the Arizona
Republicans back in 2020 to do a fraud
it what we called a fraud audit by the
way just to cut to the chase they found
no outcome determinative fraud that
would have given the election to Joe
Biden instead of to Donald Trump none
whatsoever but of course Stephanie
Lambert doesn't like that if she's
commissioned
and paying hundreds of thousands of
dollars of a report and she's basically
promised what the outcome would be she
needs the outcome to say there was fraud
in the election so text messages have
now just been revealed just now just you
know two and a half years later that
show when you take away the attempt the
uh the futile attempt to put black uh
electronic tape over over the text now
that we have apps that can actually take
that tape off we know what they said and
what they said is is Lampert telling
Logan you've got to find fraud in
Maricopa County there's got to be fraud
say that there was fraud in the election
in Maricopa County and Logan pushing
back and saying uh I I can't do that
because it's not true and Lampert
writing back you're killing me you need
to do this why because she's raised
hundreds of thousands if not millions of
dollars to put in Doug Logan's pocket
from various financers such as Patrick
burn the head of overstock.com close
friend of Donald Trump who actually was
in the White House and in the Oval
Office promoting the overthrow of our
Constitution and the seizing of voting
machines and then there's this very
shady character named Eric specken Eric
specken who uh heads an entity that he's
named specken forensics and specken
forensics is a uh crackpot snake oil
salesman type forensic company that's
been debunked and uh wherever it goes
but this is the company that Lampert
frequently tried to use in lawsuits that
she filed to claim fraud in the election
when she couldn't get Doug Logan and
cyber ninjas to follow the script that
she had written to find fraud in the
election she'd bring in Eric specken
Eric specken he'll find fraud in fact
she tried to get Logan to hire specken
in the waning days of when he had to
deliver his his report to the Arizona uh
Congress people Arizona State House
Republicans and Logan said I'm at the
final I'm doing the final report here I
can't bring in spren and then there's
also emails and text where spren and
Logan had a had a conversation by text
Ex change and spren had nothing new to
offer even he the fraud finder the fraud
Hunter had no fraud to report at least
in Arizona to Doug Logan but this is
what happens when you have have a
ridiculous hypothesis that is wrong what
is right is what the head of our cyber
security uh um for the US government
said about the election that it was the
most um fraud-free election and secure
election from an Integrity standpoint in
the history of the United States that's
Chris Krebs and what did Donald Trump
say when or do when he heard that did he
Pat the guy on the back the guy that was
the head of his cyber security no he
fired
him because he's not following the
script
next okay but but the script is phony
it's false it it's it's running on a
fake and false hypothesis and when other
people even Doug Logan at Cyber ninjas
who was getting paid depending basically
dependent upon him finding fraud said I
can't go that far there's no fraud in
Arizona so Hampton says you're killing
me you got to find it it's gotten so bad
for Stephanie Lampert
that when um she actually accused in a
lawsuit a company called XR Vision this
is like a mini Dominion voting systems
against Fox News in that defamation case
she accused XR vision of New York of
allowing their machines to be used for
voter fraud and lied and and pleadings
filed in court on that XR Vision sued
her for um defamation and damages and
who is her expert she tried to bring in
you know the one she's got on retainer
the one who'll Say Anything Eric spren
I'm not even sure this that sounds like
a madeup name doesn't that sound like a
name that came out of a Scrabble bag is
that is there a real person name if we
run that backwards does that say does
that name say something else I I don't
know but this is the craziness and all
these people monkeying around with our
democracy and with the the gears of our
democracy and throwing monkey wrenches
into it uh you know have got to be
brought to task and maybe not just by
Michigan fonny Willis take a look at
these text messages that have now been
revealed Jack Smith take a look these
are bad bad people she's so bad that she
was caught dissembling voting machines
themselves in her hotel room in Detroit
like she took a voting machine and
started tearing it apart I don't know
looking for fraud somewhere in there
like some sort of DED Inspector Gadget
you know this is the problem and this is
why people have been so upset that the
states didn't jump on top of this and
kind of waited for the Gen 6 committee
and waited for Jack Smith to do his job
but they have a job to do the Secretary
of States of each state the Battleground
States especially have a job to do here
the attorney generals of each state have
a job to do or the County Prosecutors or
city prosecutors have a job to do it's
it can't all be on the feds you know
they've got bigger fish to fry but other
people have to be held accountable the
fake electors in every every state they
should be prosecuted the the ring
leaders uh like like uh this particular
person this lawyer Stephanie Lampert
prosecuted which she is in Michigan and
now this new evidence has come out
should be uh the prosecutors in Georgia
and in the other Battleground states of
Michigan Pennsylvania in uh uh Michigan
Georgia and Pennsylvania she'll look
closer now at Stephanie Lampert based on
the revelation of this new text messages
we'll continue to bring this kind of uh
Sunshine sunlight uh to this um this
problem of allowing people in our
society to walk the streets free when
they had a hand in trying to overthrow
our democracy just like the Jan 6
insurrectionist just like just like all
the people in the close in the close
company of Donald Trump and these people
as well will continue to follow it on
the mightest touch Network only here on
YouTube uh I do this about about every
day if not every half an hour on hot
taks just like this one we pull it all
together in a twice weekly show we call
Legal a I co-founded it and co-anchor it
on Wednesdays and on Saturdays 800 PM
eastern time um and then everywhere you
can get your audio podcast give me a
thumbs up if you like this particular
story or stories like this one analysis
like this one we don't blow smoker
Sunshine here we're here to tell you the
facts based on our analysis being in my
case 32 years a trial lawyer nationally
in cour houses and courtrooms just like
the ones that I report on until my next
hot take until my next legal AF this is
Michael popok legal AF

********************

Previously hidden Cyber Ninjas texts revealed in Republic records lawsuit over 'audit'
by Robert Anglen and Ryan Randazzo
Arizona republic
October 23, 2023 at 7:36 PM

A digital backdoor is allowing the public to read more than 1,400 text messages that Cyber Ninjas CEO Doug Logan has tried for years to hide.

The newly deciphered messages come to light more than two years after The Arizona Republic filed a lawsuit seeking communications surrounding the Arizona Senate's "audit."

The messages reveal communications between Logan and Michigan lawyer Stefanie Lambert, who led a campaign to access voting software in several swing states in her effort to help overturn the 2020 election on behalf of former President Donald Trump.

Lambert and Logan discussed "audit" funding, voting machines and concerns raised by then-Senate President Karen Fann about what they should allow the public to know.

Fann, who as the Arizona Senate president authorized a review of 2.1 million ballots in Maricopa County in 2020, wanted to keep quiet the funding of the "audit," according to the newly revealed messages.

"She doesn't want the Senate to look bad for not properly funding it," Logan messaged Lambert in July 2021, as he was struggling to pay for the election review that had gone on longer than originally planned.

"She wanted us to fund raise quietly, through other organizations," Logan continued.

Lambert, who was criminally charged for her election-related efforts in Michigan, criticized Fann's stealthiness.

"So she prefers that it fails? Or that you go bankrupt?!" Lambert responded.

The previously hidden messages include a link to a fundraising site that allowed people to donate directly to Logan, which he called "kind of sketchy." The site still is available on the Wayback Machine on Internet Archives.

A map on the site highlighted Arizona, Georgia, Michigan and Pennsylvania, four states where Trump allies sought to get hold of voting machine data and had false electors sign documents claiming he won the 2020 election.

The fundraising site was set up by former Michigan attorney general candidate Matt DePerno, who was also charged in Michigan with Lambert and others over the voting-machine breaches. He has pleaded not guilty and says the investigation is politically motivated.

The 1,484 messages were hidden by Cyber Ninjas' CEO Logan and his attorneys in their responses to The Republic's lawsuit.

The redactions were uncovered by a team of data analysts called The Audit Guys, who have reviewed material Logan sent to a public "reading room" in response to a judge's orders.

While some of the messages appear to reveal unflattering details of the recount effort, it remains unclear why Logan has decided to attempt to withhold them this long.

Logan and Lambert did not respond Monday to requests for comment on the redacted messages.

Logan or his legal team have provided various justifications for blacking out the messages, including footnotes such as “impacts relationship in a legal manner” or “term ramifications to (Cyber Ninjas)” on the documents they submitted in the case.

Logan, who worked with Lambert to access voting machine data in Georgia, Michigan and Pennsylvania, also claimed some documents were protected by attorney-client privlege.

Lambert had no official role in the "audit" and was not Cyber Ninjas' lawyer during the ballot review.

Republican lawmakers in the Arizona Senate enabled Cyber Ninjas' so-called audit of the Maricopa County 2020 election that Trump allies used in their multistate efforts to sow mistrust in election processes.

The Republic sued the Arizona Senate and Cyber Ninjas in 2021 for financial and communications records about the partisan "audit."

Fann, R-Prescott, and Sen. Warren Petersen, R-Gilbert, oversaw Cyber Ninjas' work.

Fann could not be reached for comment Monday.

How the records came to light

Judges have repeatedly ruled in The Republic's favor and ordered Logan to turn over all audit-related communications. The Senate also was ordered to turn over troves of communication related to the audit with some exceptions.

Logan, however, has defied those orders. He continued to hold back records even after a judge in January 2022 issued $50,000-a-day sanctions against Cyber Ninjas for not complying with orders.

Logan turned over thousands of messages that were either partially or entirely blacked out, or redacted, for questionable reasons.

Logan has tried to redact more than 1,400 messages with Lambert, but he or his legal team submitted the documents in a format that made it possible to undo the redactions and expose the underlying messages he was attempting to conceal.

The previously redacted messages are the digital equivalent of using a dark marker to black out text on a sheet of paper, which is still readable if the paper is held up to a light.

The Audit Guys assisted The Republic with removing the redactions. Previously, the group built software to untangle and organize the messages, which had been submitted in various formats and out of sequence.

The Audit Guys have long challenged Logan's ballot review as "fiction" and after an exhaustive analysis of data in 2021 concluded that Logan's "results" were wildly inaccurate and made up.

The Audit Guys are Larry Moore, the founder of Boston-based election technology company Clear Ballot Group; Benny White, a prominent Pima County Republican data analyst; and Tim Halvorsen, Clear Ballot's retired chief technology officer.

Their stated mission is to "debunk election disinformation and confront those who use their power to spread it." They were interested in the messages between Logan and Lambert because of their coordinated efforts across the country following Trump's loss.

Who is Michigan attorney Stefanie Lambert?

A Michigan grand jury in August indicted Lambert on multiple conspiracy charges, including "undue possession" of a voting machine.

Lambert also is one of 30 unnamed and unindicted co-conspirators a Georgia grand jury accused of participating in a sweeping election conspiracy. Trump and 18 of his allies were charged in the case.

Lambert, who pleaded not guilty in Michigan, said all the cases were politically motivated. Logan was named in both cases but has not faced charges.

Records show Lambert exchanged more than 2,400 text messages with Logan during the "audit," more than any other person he messaged while leading the effort.

Previously released text messages and court records show Lambert tapped Logan to analyze voting equipment in battleground states shortly after the Nov. 3, 2020, election.

Prosecutors with the Michigan Attorney General's Office say Logan was involved in taking apart five voting machines from three Michigan counties while holed up in a Detroit-area hotel room in April 2021 — just days after the Arizona Senate hired him to lead the "audit."

Text messages show Logan texted Lambert nearly every day — often dozens of times — from March 2021, before the Arizona ballot review began, to January 2022, months after it ended. Court records show Logan and Lambert were in contact even earlier.

Logan and Lambert discussed their Michigan election investigation, the Department of Justice, "audit" fundraising, Dominion voting machines and putting "liberal companies funding communism out of business," according to earlier texts obtained by The Republic.

Why did The Republic sue for the Cyber Ninjas audit communications?

The Republic is fighting for the records to provide the public a better understanding of the unprecedented "audit" of the election, which involved the Senate issuing subpoenas to the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors and moving election equipment and about 2.1 million ballots to the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum for inspection by private contractors.

The hand count was supposed to take a few weeks and cost taxpayers $150,000. It ultimately took months and so far has cost Arizona more than $5.5 million.

Logan said at a Sept. 24, 2021, Senate hearing the hand count showed President Joe Biden beat Trump in Maricopa County, and the numbers closely matched the county's certified election results from November. Logan's reports skimmed over the outcomes and focused on perceived voting irregularities.

But Logan privately admitted in text messages obtained by The Republic that he couldn't make sense of his own numbers, which he called "screwy."

Robert Anglen is an investigative reporter for The Republic. Reach him at [email protected] or 602-444-8694. Follow him on X, formerly Twitter: @robertanglen.

Reach reporter Ryan Randazzo at [email protected] or 602-444-4331. Follow him on X, formerly Twitter @UtilityReporter.

This article originally appeared on Arizona Republic: Hidden Arizona 'audit' text messages between Cyber Ninjas, Trump ally

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How to see the hidden text messages Cyber Ninjas CEO Doug Logan blacked out
by Robert Anglen and Ryan Randazzo
Arizona Republic
Published 6:01 am MT Oct 28, 2023 Updated 6:01 am MT Oct 28, 2023

Cyber Ninjas CEO Doug Logan attempted to block public view of more than 1,400 texts he traded with a Michigan lawyer tied to data breaches in four states.

He blacked out texts, but The Arizona Republic was able to digitally remove his redactions and view the messages.

We wanted to share the method we used with you.

The hidden texts were among 39,000 messages Logan has released in response to a public records lawsuit filed by The Republic in 2021 for all communications related to the Arizona "audit."

The "audit" has so far cost taxpayers about $5.5 million. The Arizona Senate hired Logan to lead a hand count of 2.1 million ballots cast in Maricopa County's 2020 election. Former Senate President Karen Fann in 2021 said the review was non-partisan and had nothing to do with Donald Trump or overturning the election.

Texts, however, reveal Trump's allies and lawyers were involved in nearly every facet of the "audit." The texts showed that Logan was enlisted as part of a coordinated effort to overturn election results in several swing states, including Georgia, Michigan and Pennsylvania.

How to uncover Cyber Ninjas' hidden texts

People who want to remove the redactions from Doug Logan’s text messages can start by downloading his redacted messages from the public “reading room” that lawyers for the Arizona Senate created.

This public website includes all of the documents the Senate and Cyber Ninjas have turned over in response to public records cases.

This is the link to the reading room: https://web.tresorit.com/l/XMN4J#pqSHHqcq_c_eP90cdWcdSg.

It contains tens of thousands of documents within various folders, dated from when the submissions were made. Not all can be unredacted.

The messages with Michigan lawyer Stefanie Lambert are in a folder submitted July 26 and can be found here: https://web.tresorit.com/l/XMN4J#pqSHHq ... CJp7JD8Jrt.

The PDF document can be downloaded.

By using PDF editing software such as Adobe Acrobat, users may open that document, click on the black boxes that hide the messages between Logan and Lambert, then delete them.

Robert Anglen is an investigative reporter for The Republic. Reach him at [email protected] or 602-444-8694. Follow him on X, formerly Twitter: @robertanglen.

Reach reporter Ryan Randazzo [email protected] or 602-444-4331. Follow him on X, formerly Twitter:@UtilityReporter.