Bar Charge Re: Dennis I. Wilenchik, John “Jack” D. Wilenchik, Lee Miller, Wilenchik & Bartness; Alexander Kolodin SBN 020826, Christopher Viskovic SBN 013860, Chris Ford 029437, and Sue Becker MO 64721; Brett Johnson SBN 921527, Eric Spender SBN 022707, Snell & Wilmer, Attorney for Republican National Committee; Kory Langhofer SBN 024722 and Thomas Basile SBN 031150; Davis Spilsbury, Erick G. Kaardal, No. 1035141* Special Counsel to Amistad Project of the Thomas More Society, William F. Mohrman, 168816,* Gregory Erickson 0276522* Mohrman, Kaardal & Erickson, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota; Brandon Johnson, Emily P. Newman, Sidney Katherine Powell of Sidney Powell PC in Dallas, TX; Howard Kleinhenbdler, New York, NY; Julia Zuszua Haller, Washington, DC; L Lin Wood, Atlanta, GA. by Dianne Post, Bob McWhirter, Roxana Bacon, Brendan Mahoney, Gail Gianasi Natale, Amelia Craig Cramer, and Victor Aronow December 16, 2020
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HIGHLIGHTS:
Arizona Republican Party v. Adrian Fontes et al.: [O]nly Maricopa County, where the attorneys’ favored candidate lost, was sued. Other counties using the same counting protocols and process were not, since the “right” candidate won there...
Laurie Aquilera et al v. Adrian Fontes et al.:The judge noted that the plaintiffs said 13 times that the county did not deliver a “perfect” election but the plaintiff’s own expert testified there is no such thing as a “perfect” election nor does the law expect nor require a perfect election given the fallibility of humans and machines. Two people claimed they had difficulty voting. Both ballots were in fact in the machines and one received notice that it was in fact counted. The two voters expressed worry that their votes would not be counted. That was the extent of their concern.
Such flimsy evidence did not substantiate cognizable legal claims. The relief requested was not appropriate. The plaintiffs failed to allege harm sufficient to achieve standing. Both “worried” voters cast their ballots, both were told they were counted. Given free range to present their cases, Plaintiffs could not show that defendants had done anything wrong, could not show the plaintiffs were injured, and did not seek relief that was within the court’s jurisdiction...
Supreme Court of Az, Kelli Ward v. Jackson et al.: The Arizona Supreme Court unanimously upheld the lower court because there was no evidence of misconduct or illegal votes or fraud or a high error rate. In fact the lower court judge had gone out of his way, some say illegally, to allow the plaintiffs to examine 1,626 duplicated ballots only to find nothing. The tiny percentage of errors showed no fraud of any kind...
Stevenson et al v. Ducey et al.: This suit presented one of the more bizarre claims: that unidentified grant money was distributed to direct the actions of election officials by some “shadow government” orchestrated by Mark Zuckerberg, that there was an unusually large number of absentee ballots and that there was outreach to the elderly and historically disenfranchised populations. It was also alleged that some anonymous unknown government data (not the same “shadow government” apparently) said the real difference between candidates was 300,000....
Bowyer et al v. Ducey et al.: [T]he lawsuit is filled with baseless claims from anonymous sources and expert witnesses with no expertise. It offers no facts or first-hand knowledge. Some of the more bizarre allegations are that Venezuela, Iran, and China rigged the election through voting machines, a former military intelligence analyst known as Spider rigged it, and some unfathomable data analysis from an unknown source proved this. This suit, like the others, is an attempt to use Arizona courts to attack democracy, to pummel our federal and Arizona state Constitution, and the rule of law, all in violation of lawyers’ oath of admission. This suit is so absurd it is a parody of pleading. It claims that the Arizona’s Secretary of State and Governor conspired with various domestic and international actors to manipulate Arizona’s 2020 General Election. With 300 pages of attachments based on anonymous witnesses, hearsay, and irrelevant analysis of unrelated elections, the suit has not a shred of legally admissible evidence. The suit violates litigation 101 by not even alleging that the named defendants did anything in violation of law. Their conclusions, all drawn from unreliable or unidentified sources, are pure fiction; for example, one anonymous witness blames Hugo Chavez, former President of Venezuela, now dead 7 years...
In all of the cases, the offered evidence was found to be false, and there is not much doubt the attorneys knew that which is also in violation of ER 3.3.
Law Offices of Robert J. McWhirter Robert J. McWhirter 812 North Second Avenue Phoenix, Arizona 85003 Bob@robertjmcwhirter.com (480) 999-4004
December 16, 2020
Lawyer Regulation Division State Bar of Arizona 4201 North 24th Street, Suite 200 Phoenix, AZ 85016-6288
Bar Charge re: Dennis I. Wilenchik, John “Jack” D. Wilenchik, Lee Miller, Wilenchik & Bartness; Alexander Kolodin SBN 020826, Christopher Viskovic SBN 013860, Chris Ford 029437, and Sue Becker MO 64721; Brett Johnson SBN 921527, Eric Spender SBN 022707, Snell & Wilmer, Attorney for Republican National Committee; Kory Langhofer SBN 024722 and Thomas Basile SBN 031150; Davis Spilsbury, Erick G. Kaardal, No. 1035141* Special Counsel to Amistad Project of the Thomas More Society, William F. Mohrman, 168816,* Gregory Erickson 0276522* Mohrman, Kaardal & Erickson, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota; Brandon Johnson, Emily P. Newman, Sidney Katherine Powell of Sidney Powell PC in Dallas, TX; Howard Kleinhenbdler, New York, NY; Julia Zuszua Haller, Washington, DC; L Lin Wood, Atlanta, GA.
TO THE STATE BAR OF ARIZONA: Disciplinary Department
The U.S. and Arizona judicial systems are designed to give very wide latitude in bringing claims including unpopular and novel claims, but there are limits. Attorneys have an ethical obligation to bring claims that have legal and factual merit. As Arizona attorneys, we are obligated to report when another lawyer fails in ethical obligations in such a way that it reflects on a lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer and reflects poorly on the legal profession. The undersigned believe that to be the case here.
The 2020 presidential election has been politically contentious. We are loath to wade into the politics in this forum. Our concern here is the repeated presentation of utterly meritless cases that have been in the Arizona state and federal courts including the U.S. Supreme Court by local and out of state counsel, knowing that the cases lacked legal merit and any factual foundation whatsoever. Confidence in the legal system is seriously eroded when attorneys treat lawsuits as a platform for broadcasting “gossip and innuendo,” utterly devoid of factual proof, as a political stunt. That is what has happened repeatedly in Arizona and is the basis for this report of ethical violations by said attorneys under the Rules of Professional Conduct.
First, we believe we must file this complaint. Under the Arizona Rules of Professional Conduct, Rule 42, lawyers have a duty to report professional misconduct.
ER 8.3. Reporting Professional Misconduct
(a) A lawyer who knows that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the appropriate professional authority, except as otherwise provided in these Rules or by law.
Thus, it is our professional duty to report a host of legal and ethical violations by the named attorneys in conjunction with recent Arizona litigation surrounding the 2020 presidential election.
We are not alone.
Over 3,000 lawyers from across the country, including professors of legal ethics, have signed a letter, that was published in the New York Times on Dec. 7 and Washington Post on Dec. 9, explaining that lawyers must mobilize members of our profession to fulfill their responsibility to protect and defend the rule of law and uphold the core principles and values of our democracy.
The letter outlines that this barrage of litigation is based not on law but on a clear political agenda: to undermine confidence in elections that will inevitably subvert constitutional democracy. As the letter says, “Sadly, the President’s primary agents and enablers in this effort are lawyers, obligated by their oath and ethical rules to uphold the rule of law. Bar Associations need to condemn this abuse and bar disciplinary authorities need to investigate it.”
Lawyers take an oath to support the Constitution. The amended version of the oath of Admission to the Arizona Bar became effective January 2, 2017 and states:
I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution and laws of the United States and the State of Arizona;
I will treat the courts of justice and judicial officers with due respect;
I will not counsel or maintain any action, proceeding, or defense that lacks a reasonable basis in fact or law;
I will be honest in my dealings with others and not make false or misleading statements of fact or law;
I will fulfill my duty of confidentiality to my client; I will not accept compensation for representing my client from anyone other than my client without my client's knowledge and approval;
I will avoid engaging in unprofessional conduct; I will not advance any fact prejudicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness, unless required by my duties to my client or the tribunal;
I will support the fair administration of justice, professionalism among lawyers, and legal representation for those unable to afford counsel;
I will at all times faithfully and diligently adhere to the rules of professional responsibility and A Lawyer's Creed of Professionalism of the State Bar of Arizona.
The attorneys in these cases in Arizona, ten lawsuits and twenty-one lawyers in all, have violated their oaths and their professional ethics. There is no exception to the Rules simply because someone holds passionate partisan beliefs. As the letter signed by over 3,000 lawyers says,
it is indefensible for lawyers to falsely proclaim widespread voting fraud, submit a pattern of frivolous court claims and actively seek to undermine citizens’ faith in our election’s integrity.
We condemn this conduct without reservation. It demeans the legal profession and the multitudes of lawyers of all political persuasions who daily serve their clients and the public honorably. Our profession needs to affirm that this behavior grossly deviates from the bar’s deep commitment to democratic institutions and the fact-based processes that maintain our democracy’s vitality.
That is why we ask that the Bar take seriously and do a thorough investigation and follow through on this complaint and its companion complaint filed earlier regarding one of the lawsuits.
Below is a brief summary of the ten different lawsuits that were filed by the twenty-one different attorneys:
1. Aguilera et al v. Fontes et al, CV 2020-014083 and CV 2020-014248, Hon. Margaret R. Mahoney, filed 11/2020, attorney Alexander M. Kolodin.
After motion practice and an order to show cause hearing, answers were not filed and a motion to dismiss from the plaintiff was, so the case was dismissed. See below as well.
2. Arizona Republican Party v. Adrian Fontes et al., CV2020-014553, Hon. John Hannah. Filed November 12, 2020. Attorneys were Dennis I. Wilenchik, John “Jack” D. Wilenchik, Lee Miller, Wilenchik & Bartness.
The defendant pointed out that the case had no substantial justification and was brought to delay and harass. Plaintiff’s attorneys knew there was no merit to the claim as the requested hand count had already been announced, and the state Attorney General had released a letter publicly confirming that fact. Indeed, Lee Miller, named in this complaint, had worked in the Secretary of State’s office and was well aware that the challenged counting process had been in existence for nearly 10 years without issue. And finally, only Maricopa County, where the attorneys’ favored candidate lost, was sued. Other counties using the same counting protocols and process were not, since the “right” candidate won there.
The goal in the spurious filings was to rally the anti-election base and delay the certification of the election results.
Clearly the suits were filed in bad faith, to spread disinformation about election results and add to the false claim that the election was “rigged.” For politicians to spout that nonsense in a press conference is one thing, but for attorneys to try to use the courts solely for political disruption is not allowed.
3. Laurie Aquilera et al v. Adrian Fontes et al. CV2020-014562, Hon. Margaret Mahoney, Filed 11/12/2020. The attorneys were Alexander Kolodin SBN 020826, Christopher Viskovic SBN 013860, and Sue Becker MO 64721. The case was dismissed November 29, 2020.
The judge noted that the plaintiffs said 13 times that the county did not deliver a “perfect” election but the plaintiff’s own expert testified there is no such thing as a “perfect” election nor does the law expect nor require a perfect election given the fallibility of humans and machines. Two people claimed they had difficulty voting. Both ballots were in fact in the machines and one received notice that it was in fact counted. The two voters expressed worry that their votes would not be counted. That was the extent of their concern.
Such flimsy evidence did not substantiate cognizable legal claims. The relief requested was not appropriate. The plaintiffs failed to allege harm sufficient to achieve standing. Both “worried” voters cast their ballots, both were told they were counted. Given free range to present their cases, Plaintiffs could not show that defendants had done anything wrong, could not show the plaintiffs were injured, and did not seek relief that was within the court’s jurisdiction. So the case was dismissed for failure to state a claim or alternatively denying relief for failure to produce evidence demonstrating entitlement to any relief.
4. Donald J Trump for President Inc, et al. v. Katie Hobbs, et al. CV 2020- 014248, filed 11/7/2020 Hon. Daniel J. Kiley, original attorneys were Brett Johnson SBN 921527, Eric Spender SBN 022707, Snell & Wilmer, Attorney for Republican National Committee. Later attorneys Kory Langhofer SBN 024722 and Thomas Basile SBN 031150 took over representation.
This is the “green button” case in which it is alleged that the election should be overturned due to overvotes. It was merged with 014083, Aquilera v. Fontes et al, and both ultimately were dismissed. Attorneys Johnson and Spender filed a Notice of Clarification and Withdrawal of Associated Counsel on 8 November 2020. Attorneys Langhofer and Basile took over.
On 9 November 2020, Alexander Kolodin 030826, Christopher Viskovic 035860, and Chris Ford 029437 filed a motion with Sue Becker (MO 64721) for a proposed Verified Complaint-in-intervention adding Laurie Aguilera into the law suit with the “Sharpie-gate” allegations.
On November 13, 2020, Langofer filed a “Notice of Partial Mootness” before Hon. Daniel Kiley, saying that since the close of the previous day’s hearing, the tabulation of the votes rendered unnecessary a ruling on presidential electors. Both cases were dismissed.
5. Supreme Court of Az, Kelli Ward v. Jackson et al. CV2020-015285, Maricopa County Superior Court; Hon. Randall Warner, No. CV-20-0343-AP/EL Arizona Supreme Court, Case filed 11/24/20, decision from Supreme Court filed 12/08/2020. Attorneys were Dennis and Jack Wilenchik and Lee Miller SBN 012530.
The Arizona Supreme Court unanimously upheld the lower court because there was no evidence of misconduct or illegal votes or fraud or a high error rate. In fact the lower court judge had gone out of his way, some say illegally, to allow the plaintiffs to examine 1,626 duplicated ballots only to find nothing. The tiny percentage of errors showed no fraud of any kind. A petition has now been filed by Jack Wilenchik to the U.S. Supreme Court to hear this case.
6. Stevenson et al v. Ducey et al, CV2020-096490, Maricopa Superior Court, December 4, 2020, Attorney Davis Spilsbury, filed a Petition for Election Contest on behalf of an alleged group called “Arizona Election Integrity Association” to vacate the presidential election result because of the absentee ballot error rate. They claimed that defendants so mismanaged the election process that no one can have faith in it. Out of state attorneys with pro hac vice applications filed include Erick G. Kaardal, No. 1035141* Special Counsel to Amistad Project of the Thomas More Society, William F. Mohrman, 168816* Gregory Erickson 0276522* Mohrman, Kaardal & Erickson, P.A., Minneapolis, Minnesota. This suit presented one of the more bizarre claims: that unidentified grant money was distributed to direct the actions of election officials by some “shadow government” orchestrated by Mark Zuckerberg, that there was an unusually large number of absentee ballots and that there was outreach to the elderly and historically disenfranchised populations. It was also alleged that some anonymous unknown government data (not the same “shadow government” apparently) said the real difference between candidates was 300,000. The case was voluntarily dismissed on 12/7/2020.
7. Bowyer et al v. Ducey et al, Judge Diane J Humetewa, Federal District court, 2020-cv – 2321. Filed 12/02/20. Attorneys are: Alexander Michael Kolodin, Christopher Alfredo Viskovic. Out of state attorneys are Brandon Johnson, Emily P. Newman, Sidney Katherine Powell of Sidney Powell PC in Dallas, TX; Howard Kleinhenbdler, New York, NY; Julia Zuszua Haller, Washington, DC; L Lin Wood, Atlanta, GA. The case was dismissed on 12/9/2020. Interestingly the Snell and Wilmer attorneys are now on the side of the defense.
“This case is an attempt to undermine our confidence in the (election) system with no basis in law or fact,” Justin Nelson of the defense said. “They are using the federal court system in an attempt to undermine the rule of law and obtain breathtaking, startling and unprecedented relief to overturn the will of the people.”
Like those filed before, the lawsuit is filled with baseless claims from anonymous sources and expert witnesses with no expertise. It offers no facts or first-hand knowledge. Some of the more bizarre allegations are that Venezuela, Iran, and China rigged the election through voting machines, a former military intelligence analyst known as Spider rigged it, and some unfathomable data analysis from an unknown source proved this. This suit, like the others, is an attempt to use Arizona courts to attack democracy, to pummel our federal and Arizona state Constitution, and the rule of law, all in violation of lawyers’ oath of admission. This suit is so absurd it is a parody of pleading. It claims that the Arizona’s Secretary of State and Governor conspired with various domestic and international actors to manipulate Arizona’s 2020 General Election. With 300 pages of attachments based on anonymous witnesses, hearsay, and irrelevant analysis of unrelated elections, the suit has not a shred of legally admissible evidence. The suit violates litigation 101 by not even alleging that the named defendants did anything in violation of law. Their conclusions, all drawn from unreliable or unidentified sources, are pure fiction; for example, one anonymous witness blames Hugo Chavez, former President of Venezuela, now dead 7 years.
The judge dismissed the case on lack of standing, lack of case or controversy, the abstention doctrine, 11tth amendment immunity, laches, mootness, and failure to state a claim. In spite of that, attorney Kolodon has filed a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case.
All twenty-one lawyers involved have violated numerous Rules of Professional Conduct. Please note that those from out of state are subject to Arizona rules when practicing in AZ. The violations include:
1. Judges, opposing counsel, and observers have repeatedly pointed out that these cases have absolutely no merit and are completely frivolous. Bringing such claims, for some of the attorneys not once or twice (Dennis Wilenchik, Lee Miller, Langhofer, Basile, Becker) or three times (Jack Wilenchik, Viskovic) but five times (Kolodon), violates ER 3.1 Meritorious Claims and Contentions.
Attorney Langhofer was chastised by the court for not divulging pertinent facts to the court including that his “expert witness” was in fact his business partner. This violates ER 3.3 Candor Toward the Tribunal. Such behavior is also in violation of ER 3.4(f) (1). In all of the cases, the offered evidence was found to be false, and there is not much doubt the attorneys knew that which is also in violation of ER 3.3. This claim is especially egregious in the case of Lee Miller, who knew full well that there was no merit to the claim as the Arizona procedure was developed under him when he worked in the Secretary of State’s office. Arizona Republican Party v. Fontes et al. CV2020-014553.
2. Those who are partners, managers, and supervisory lawyers share full responsibility for these violations. ER 5.1
3. However, those subordinate lawyers cannot lay all the blame on their supervisors be because there is no arguable question of professional duty in these cases. ER 5.2
4. Those lawyers who practiced in AZ under pro hace vice applications also must be held responsible under ER 8.5 and must be barred from ever being granted a pro hace vice application in the future.
Conclusion:
To be an attorney is a privilege, not a right. To retain the privilege, we must abide by a code of ethics. These twenty-one attorneys did not do so. We ask for a thorough and complete ethics investigation into their conduct and that appropriate action be taken based upon that investigation.
Respectfully submitted, Dianne Post Bob McWhirter Roxana Bacon Brendan Mahoney Gail Gianasi Natale Amelia Craig Cramer Victor Aronow
Arizona Republican Party Chair Urges Trump Treason Via Martial Law by Jason Easley PoliticusUSA DEC 20TH, 2020
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Arizona Republican Party Chair Kelli Ward urged Donald Trump to impose martial law and overturn the election.
Ward tweeted:
Dr. Kelli Ward @Kelliwardaz Mr. President @realDonaldTrump - we are with you in #Arizona. We are working every avenue to stop this coup & to stop our Republic from crumbing. Patriots are united. Those who are against us are exposing themselves. #Liberty & #freedom are on the line. #CrossTheRubicon @GenFlynn
When Trump supporters suggest that he cross the rubicon, they are urging him to violate the constitution and commit at minimum sedition, which could be viewed as treason by overturning the election.
The fact that there are so many Americans who are willing to end our democracy to keep one man in power shows that the threat to democracy will not end with Trump.
The odds of the Republican Party going back to normal with non-Trump candidates running for president in 2024 are getting close to zero with each passing day. The bar for future Republican candidates is being set by Trump at destroying democracy.
Donald Trump was the symptom and not the disease. Removing Trump isn’t going to fix the Republican Party.
The GOP is walking down a path that will make it a domestic threat to America’s system of governance. Trump has opened the door to authoritarianism, and millions of his supporters are willing to walk through and end democracy in the United States.
Jason Easley Mr. Easley is the founder/managing editor, who is White House Press Pool, and a Congressional correspondent for PoliticusUSA. Jason has a Bachelor’s Degree in Political Science. His graduate work focused on public policy, with a specialization in social reform movements.
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Arizona GOP Chair Calls for Trump to 'Cross the Rubicon' in Tweet Shared by Michael Flynn by Jason Lemon Newsweek 12/20/20 AT 2:07 PM EST
Kelli Ward, the chair of Arizona's Republican Party, urged President Donald Trump to "cross the Rubicon" in a Saturday tweet, referencing the historical act by Julius Caesar which led to the Roman civil war and Caesar becoming a dictator. Retired General Michael Flynn, who was recently pardoned by Trump, shared Ward's tweet Sunday.
Trump and his supporters have baselessly claimed that President-elect Joe Biden won the 2020 election due to widespread voter fraud. There is no evidence to support these allegations, and state and federal judges have consistently dismissed or rejected dozens of lawsuits filed by the president and his supporters. Even judges appointed by Trump have pointed out that his attorneys have not provided evidence to back their claims. But many Republicans are still hoping the president will successfully overturn the election results.
"Mr. President @realDonaldTrump - we are with you in #Arizona. We are working every avenue to stop this coup & to stop our Republic from crumbing. Patriots are united. Those who are against us are exposing themselves. #Liberty & #freedom are on the line. #CrossTheRubicon @GenFlynn," Ward tweeted.
Flynn later retweeted Ward, writing: ".@kelliwardaz has a great feel for the people of Arizona and America. She continues to #FightForTrump With courage and conviction."
Trump pardoned Flynn, who briefly served as his national security adviser at the outset of 2017, in late November. The retired general had twice pleaded guilty to charges that he had lied to the FBI regarding conversations he'd had with a top Russian diplomat. But in January, Flynn moved to withdraw his guilty plea, and the Justice Department announced in May that it would drop all the charges against Flynn. This decision led to significant criticism, as many saw the move as resulting from presidential pressure. Trump then pardoned Flynn on November 26.
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The Arizona GOP should fight ... to get rid of Chairwoman Kelli Ward Opinion: The Arizona GOP has gone too far in suggesting a bloody overturn of the presidential election. Republicans must send leader Kelli Ward packing. by Elvia Díaz Arizona Republic Dec. 8, 2020
Kelli Ward, Arizona Republican Party Chair, speaks during a Keep America Great Rally at Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix, Ariz. on Feb. 19, 2020 Cheryl Evans/The Republic
Just when you think the Arizona Republican Party can’t get any crazier comes a call to arms to defend its election fraud conspiracy fantasies.
No joke, folks.
The GOP, which boasts 1.3 million Arizona registered members, just went full blown fanatic, asking people whether they’re willing to die to overturn the presidential election results and keep Donald Trump at the White House.
In other words, Arizona’s GOP is willing and ready for civil war. Are you? That’s what they’re asking, and it can’t be dismissed as just heated rhetoric from a fringe segment of the population.
These people are the faces and voices of mainstream politics in mainstream America. Their call to arms came late Monday from the official Twitter account of the state Republican Party, where it shared a post from Ali Alexander, an activist with an organization called “Stop the Steal.”
"I am willing to give my life for this fight," wrote Alexander about election protests that have gone nowhere in the legal system.
The GOP shared it with a question. "He is. Are you?”
Arizona Republican Party @AZGOP He is. Are you?
Ali #StopTheSteal @ali I am willing to give my life for this fight. 10:52 PM Dec 7, 2020
Yes, Republicans should get ready to fight — but not to overturn a legitimate election. They should immediately get to work to get rid of state GOP chairwoman Kelli Ward.
This has gone way too far.
C'mon, Republicans. You're better than this. For the love of America, send Ward packing along with Trump.
Elvia Díaz is an editorial columnist for The Republic and azcentral. Reach her at 602-444-8606 or elvia.diaz@arizonarepublic.com. Follow her on Twitter, @elviadiaz1.
Fact Check: Certification Of Pennsylvania Presidential Vote Is NOT In Error -- Analysis That 202,377 More Ballots Were Counted Than Voters Who Voted Uses Partial Numbers by Dana Ford leadstories.com Dec 29, 2020
Partial Data
Is the certification of the Pennsylvania presidential vote premature and in error, based on an analysis that claims 202,377 more ballots were counted than there were voters who voted? No, that's not true: The analysis, released by a handful of state Republican lawmakers, was based on partial data, according to the Pennsylvania Department of State (DOS). The number of voters used by the lawmakers did not include completed totals from several major counties. The agency defended its certification, stating: "State and federal judges have sifted through hundreds of pages of unsubstantiated and false allegations and found no evidence of fraud or illegal voting."
The claim appeared in a Twitter post (archived here) published by State Rep. Russ Diamond on December 28, 2020. The post included two screenshots -- one of a chart that showed a purported "voter deficit" in Pennsylvania and one of a statement released by Republican lawmakers, alleging "troubling discrepancies" in the 2020 election. Diamond's post read:
Pa Lawmakers: Numbers Don't Add Up, Certification Of Presidential Results Premature and In Error
This is what the post looked like on Twitter at the time of writing:
(Source: Twitter screenshot taken on Tue Dec 29 17:27:29 2020 UTC)
Russ Diamond @russdiamond Pa Lawmakers: Numbers Don't Add up, Certification Of Presidential Results Premature and In Error PENNSYLVANIA VOTER DEFICIT - 2020 GENERAL ELECTION Total Ballots Cast (County Data) / Total Votes Counted in Presidential Race (County Data) / SURE System Total Voters Who Voted 11/3/2020 (SURE Data) County Data: 6,962,607 / County Data: 6,931,060 / 6,760,230 SURE Data: -6,760,230 / SURE Data: -6,760,230 202,377 more ballots cast than voters who voted / 170,830 more ballots cast than voters who voted Note: Three small rural counties have not fully posted results online and their results were included as reported 10:18 AM - Dec 28, 2020
The full text of the lawmakers' statement can be found on Diamond's website.
PA Lawmakers: Numbers Don’t Add Up, Certification of Presidential Results Premature and In Error DEC. 28, 2020
HARRISBURG – A group of state lawmakers performing extensive analysis of election data today revealed troubling discrepancies between the numbers of total votes counted and total number of voters who voted in the 2020 General Election, and as a result are questioning how the results of the presidential election could possibly have been certified by Secretary of the Commonwealth Kathy Boockvar and Governor Tom Wolf. These findings are in addition to prior concerns regarding actions by the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, the Secretary, and others impacting the conduct of the election.
A comparison of official county election results to the total number of voters who voted on November 3, 2020 as recorded by the Department of State shows that 6,962,607 total ballots were reported as being cast, while DoS/SURE system records indicate that only 6,760,230 total voters actually voted. Among the 6,962,607 total ballots cast, 6,931,060 total votes were counted in the presidential race, including all three candidates on the ballot and write-in candidates.
The difference of 202,377 more votes cast than voters voting, together with the 31,547 over- and under-votes in the presidential race, adds up to an alarming discrepancy of 170,830 votes, which is more than twice the reported statewide difference between the two major candidates for President of the United States. On November 24, 2020, Boockvar certified election results, and Wolf issued a certificate of ascertainment of presidential electors, stating that Vice President Joe Biden received 80,555 more votes than President Donald Trump.
The lawmakers issued the following statement in response to their findings:
“We were already concerned with the actions of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, the Executive branch, and election officials in certain counties contravening and undermining the Pennsylvania Election Code by eliminating signature verification, postmarks, and due dates while allowing the proliferation of drop boxes with questionable security measures and the unauthorized curing of ballots, as well as the questionable treatment of poll watchers, all of which created wholesale opportunities for irregularities in the 2020 presidential election.”
“However, we are now seeing discrepancies on the retail level which raise even more troubling questions regarding irregularities in the election returns. These findings call into question the accuracy of the SURE system, consistency in the application of the Pennsylvania Election Code from county to county, and the competency of those charged with oversight of elections in our Commonwealth.
“These numbers just don’t add up, and the alleged certification of Pennsylvania’s presidential election results was absolutely premature, unconfirmed, and in error.”
State Rep. Frank Ryan (R-Lebanon) indicated that state legislators sponsoring and participating in this analysis were himself and Reps. Russ Diamond (R-Lebanon), Dave Zimmerman (R-Lancaster), Barb Gleim (R-Cumberland), Stephanie Borowicz (R-Centre/Clinton), Dan Moul (R-Adams), Paul Schemel (R-Franklin), Dawn Keefer (R-York/Cumberland), Eric Nelson (R-Westmoreland), Mike Jones (R-York), Rob Kauffman (R-Franklin), David Maloney (R-Berks), David Rowe (R-Snyder/Union), Kathy Rapp (R-Warren/Crawford/Forest), Daryl Metcalfe (R-Butler), Jim Cox (R-Berks/Lancaster) and Brett Miller (R-Lancaster).
Rep. Frank Ryan 101st Legislative District Pennsylvania House of Representatives
It was supported by State Rep. Frank Ryan and by a dozen or so other Republican lawmakers in Pennsylvania. Collectively, they alleged "troubling discrepancies between the numbers of total votes counted and total number of voters who voted." The lawmakers' analysis reportedly relied on data from the SURE system, which is the statewide database used by county officials to maintain data related to elections and voters. Their statement read:
A comparison of official county election results to the total number of voters who voted on November 3, 2020 as recorded by the Department of State shows that 6,962,607 total ballots were reported as being cast, while DoS/SURE system records indicate that only 6,760,230 total voters actually voted. Among the 6,962,607 total ballots cast, 6,931,060 total votes were counted in the presidential race, including all three candidates on the ballot and write-in candidates.
The difference of 202,377 more votes cast than voters voting, together with the 31,547 over- and under-votes in the presidential race, adds up to an alarming discrepancy of 170,830 votes, which is more than twice the reported statewide difference between the two major candidates for President of the United States.
Joe Biden defeated Donald Trump in Pennsylvania by more than 80,000 votes, according to official state data.
Lead Stories reached out to the Pennsylvania DOS to comment on the lawmakers' claims. The agency responded with a lengthy statement that rejected their analysis, saying it displayed a lack of election-related knowledge and was based on incomplete information. The statement opened:
In [Monday's] release, Rep. Ryan and others rehash, with the same lack of evidence and the same absence of supporting documentation, repeatedly debunked conspiracy theories regarding the November 3 election. State and federal judges have sifted through hundreds of pages of unsubstantiated and false allegations and found no evidence of fraud or illegal voting.
Now, the legislators have given us another perfect example of the dangers of uninformed, lay analysis combined with a basic lack of election administration knowledge.
It continued:
We are unclear as to what data the legislators used for this most recent 'analysis.' But the only way to determine the number of voters who voted in November from the SURE system is through the vote histories. At this time, there are still a few counties that have not completed uploading their vote histories to the SURE system.These counties, which include Philadelphia, Allegheny, Butler and Cambria, would account for a significant number of voters. The numbers certified by the counties, not the uploading of voter histories into the SURE system, determines the ultimate certification of an election by the secretary.
Philadelphia County Population (2019): 1.584 million
Allegheny County Population (2019): 1.216 million
Butler County Population (2019): 187,853
Cambria County Population (2019): 130,192
TOTAL: 3.1 MILLION
The statement concluded:
To put it simply, this so-called analysis was based on incomplete data.
Pennsylvania Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman, a Democrat, similarly dismissed the lawmakers' claims, describing the group as a "fringe minority" and their analysis as a "truly bizarre, hot mess." He wrote on Twitter:
John Fetterman @JohnFetterman Let's be absolutely clear: This is 100% false. This is a fringe minority of PAGOP (15% of REPUBLICAN representatives) pitching a truly bizarre, hot mess. Their own caucus rejects it, as of this writing not one single PA senator subscribes to this hot mess. thank u next
Donald J. Trump @realD... "A group of Republican lawmakers in Pennsylvania say 200,000 more votes were counted in the 2020 Election than voters (100% went to Biden). State Representative Frank Ryan said they found troubling discrepancies after an analysis of Election Day data." @FoxNews This is far ... !This claim about election fraud is disputed
7:45 AM - Dec 29, 2020 from Braddock PA
Lead Stories reached out to the offices of Reps. Ryan and Diamond to comment on what the Pennsylvania DOS said. We will update this story, as needed, if we receive a response.
The Pennsylvania DOS certified the presidential election results on November 24, 2020.
Dana Ford is an Atlanta-based reporter and editor. She previously worked as a senior editor at Atlanta Magazine Custom Media and as a writer/ editor for CNN Digital. Ford has more than a decade of news experience, including several years spent working in Latin America.
The Post says: Give it up, Mr. President — for your sake and the nation’s by Post Editorial Board December 27, 2020 9:02pm
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Mr. President, it’s time to end this dark charade.
We’re one week away from an enormously important moment for the next four years of our country.
On Jan. 5, two runoff races in Georgia will determine which party will control the Senate — whether Joe Biden will have a rubber stamp or a much-needed check on his agenda.
Unfortunately, you’re obsessed with the next day, Jan. 6, when Congress will, in a pro forma action, certify the Electoral College vote. You have tweeted that, as long as Republicans have “courage,” they can overturn the results and give you four more years in office.
In other words, you’re cheering for an undemocratic coup.
You had every right to investigate the election. But let’s be clear: Those efforts have found nothing. To take just two examples: Your campaign paid $3 million for a recount in two Wisconsin counties, and you lost by 87 more votes. Georgia did two recounts of the state, each time affirming Biden’s win. These ballots were counted by hand, which alone debunks the claims of a Venezuelan vote-manipulating Kraken conspiracy.
Sidney Powell is a crazy person. Michael Flynn suggesting martial law is tantamount to treason. It is shameful.
We understand, Mr. President, that you’re angry that you lost. But to continue down this road is ruinous. We offer this as a newspaper that endorsed you, that supported you: If you want to cement your influence, even set the stage for a future return, you must channel your fury into something more productive.
Stop thinking about Jan. 6. Start thinking about Jan. 5.
If Republicans David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler win, they will prevent Biden from rolling back what you have accomplished. A Republican Senate can pressure Biden against returning to the old, failed Iran deal, can stop him from throwing open our southern border, will prevent him from packing the Supreme Court.
Now imagine a government controlled by your nemeses — Nancy Pelosi in the House, Chuck Schumer in the Senate, Biden in the White House. How high will taxes go? How many of your initiatives will be strangled? And, on a personal note, do you think they won’t spend the next four years torturing you with baseless hearings and investigations?
Consider this. You came out of nowhere to win the presidency. Not an elected official, not a lawyer, not beholden to any particular faction of the swamp. You took on the elites and the media who had long lost touch with average working people. You changed politics, which is something few in American history can say.
If Georgia falls, all that is threatened. You will leave your party out of power, less likely to listen to what you have to say or to capitalize on your successes, such as expanding the Hispanic voting bloc for the GOP.
Democrats will try to write you off as a one-term aberration and, frankly, you’re helping them do it. The King Lear of Mar-a-Lago, ranting about the corruption of the world.
Securing the Senate means securing your legacy. You should use your considerable charm and influence to support the Georgia candidates, mobilizing your voters for them. Focus on their success, not your own grievances, as we head into the final week.
If you insist on spending your final days in office threatening to burn it all down, that will be how you are remembered. Not as a revolutionary, but as the anarchist holding the match.
Sportswriter: Trump cheats like a mafia accountant at golf by John Berman CNN Apr 2, 2019
In an interview with CNN’s John Berman, longtime sportswriter and author of "Commander in Cheat" Rick Reilly details how President Donald Trump allegedly cheats his opponents at golf. #CNN #News
Cheat by The Clash
I get violent when I'm fucked up I get silent when I'm drugged up Want excitement, don't get none, I go wild I don't know what can be done about it If you play the game you get nothing out of it Find out for yourself try bein' a goody-goody You better cheat-cheat No reason to play fair Cheat-cheat or don't get anywhere Cheat-cheat if you can't win Nobody knows what they are doing It's beyond your control, an' Friday night's a ruin If you want to survive you better learn how to lie You better cheat-cheat No reason to play fair Cheat-cheat or don't get anywhere Cheat-cheat if you can't win Don't use the rules They're not for you, they're for the fools And you're a fool if you don't know that So use the rules, you stupid fool
‘I just want to find 11,780 votes’: In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor by Amy Gardner Washington Post Jan. 3, 2021 at 4:12 p.m. PST
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[x] Audio: Trump berates Ga. secretary of state, urges him to ‘find’ votes
Trump: We have won this election in Georgia based on all of this. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, Brad. You know I mean, having the correct — the people of Georgia are angry. And these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night. Along with others that we're going to have by that time which are much more substantial even. And the people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated. Because the 2,236 in absentee ballots. I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms law firms, etc. and even if you cut 'em in half, cut 'em in half and cut 'em in half, again, it's more votes than we need.
Raffensperger: Well Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong...
Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery.
Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal, right?
Germany: This is Ryan Germany. No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County.
Trump: But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?
Germany: No.
Trump: Are you sure, Ryan?
Germany: I'm sure....
you should want to have an accurate election. And you're a Republican.
Raffensperger: We believe that we do have an accurate election.
Trump: No, no you don't. No, no you don't. You don't have. Not even close. You're off by hundreds of thousands of votes....
you know what they did and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal, that's a criminal offense. And you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that's a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I've heard. And they are removing machinery and they're moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can't let it happen and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I'm notifying you that you're letting it happen. So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state....
So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly in many ways. And I think you have to say that you're going to reexamine it and you can reexamine it, but reexamine it with people that want to find answers, not people that don't want to find answers. For instance, I'm hearing Ryan that he's probably, I'm sure a great lawyer and everything. But he's making statements about those ballots that he doesn't know. But he's making them with such — he did make them with surety. But now I think he's less sure because the answer is they all went to Biden and that alone wins us the election by a lot. You know, so.
Raffensperger: Mr. President, you have people that submit information and we have our people that submit information. And then it comes before the court and the court then has to make a determination. We have to stand by our numbers. We believe our numbers are right....
Well, under the law you're not allowed to give faulty election results, OK? You're not allowed to do that. And that's what you done. This is a faulty election result. And honestly, this should go very fast. You should meet tomorrow because you have a big election coming up and because of what you've done to the president — you know, the people of Georgia know that this was a scam. And because of what you've done to the president, a lot of people aren't going out to vote and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it. And they're going to vote. And you would be respected. Really respected, if this thing could be straightened out before the election. You have a big election coming up on Tuesday.
In a phone call on Saturday, President Trump insisted he won the state and threatened vague legal consequences. Here are excerpts from the call. (Obtained by The Washington Post)
President Trump urged fellow Republican Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, to “find” enough votes to overturn his defeat in an extraordinary one-hour phone call Saturday that legal scholars described as a flagrant abuse of power and a potential criminal act.
The Washington Post obtained a recording of the conversation in which Trump alternately berated Raffensperger, tried to flatter him, begged him to act and threatened him with vague criminal consequences if the secretary of state refused to pursue his false claims, at one point warning that Raffensperger was taking “a big risk.”
Throughout the call, Raffensperger and his office’s general counsel rejected Trump’s assertions, explaining that the president is relying on debunked conspiracy theories and that President-elect Joe Biden’s 11,779-vote victory in Georgia was fair and accurate.
Trump dismissed their arguments.
“The people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry,” he said. “And there’s nothing wrong with saying, you know, that you’ve recalculated.”
Raffensperger responded: “Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong.”
Read the full transcript of the Trump-Raffensperger call
At another point, Trump said: “So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state.”
Audio: Trump’s full Jan. 2 call with Ga. secretary of state Listen to the full Jan. 2 phone call. This audio has been edited to remove the name of an individual about whom the president makes unsubstantiated allegations. (Obtained by The Washington Post) He later added: “So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.”
The rambling and at times incoherent conversation offered a remarkable glimpse of how consumed and desperate the president remains about his loss, unwilling or unable to let the matter go and still believing he can reverse the results in enough battleground states to remain in office.
“There’s no way I lost Georgia,” Trump said, a phrase he repeated again and again on the call. “There’s no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes.”
Several of his allies were on the line as he spoke, including White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and conservative lawyer Cleta Mitchell, a prominent GOP attorney whose involvement with Trump’s efforts had not been previously known.
In a statement, Mitchell said Raffensperger’s office “has made many statements over the past two months that are simply not correct and everyone involved with the efforts on behalf of the President’s election challenge has said the same thing: show us your records on which you rely to make these statements that our numbers are wrong.”
The White House, the Trump campaign and Meadows did not respond to a request for comment.
Raffensperger’s office declined to comment.
On Sunday, Trump tweeted that he had spoken to Raffensperger, saying the secretary of state was “unwilling, or unable, to answer questions such as the ‘ballots under table’ scam, ballot destruction, out of state ‘voters’, dead voters, and more. He has no clue!”
Raffensperger responded with his own tweet: “Respectfully, President Trump: What you’re saying is not true.”
The details of the call drew demands from congressional Democrats for criminal investigations. Biden’s top campaign lawyer, Bob Bauer, said the recording “captures the whole, disgraceful story about Donald Trump’s assault on American democracy.”
Republicans, however, were largely silent. Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.), when asked about the call while campaigning in Georgia on Sunday for the two GOP senators who face a runoff Tuesday, dodged the question completely.
Trump’s pressure campaign on Raffensperger is the latest example of his attempt to subvert the outcome of the Nov. 3 election through personal outreach to state Republican officials. He previously invited Michigan Republican state leaders to the White House, pressured Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp (R) in a call to try to replace that state’s electors and asked the speaker of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives to help reverse his loss in that state.
His call to Raffensperger came as scores of Republicans have pledged to challenge the electoral college’s vote for Biden when Congress convenes for a joint session on Wednesday. Republicans do not have the votes to successfully thwart Biden’s victory, but Trump has urged supporters to travel to Washington to protest the outcome, and state and federal officials are already bracing for clashes outside the Capitol.
Growing number of Trump loyalists in the Senate vow to challenge Biden’s victory
During their conversation, Trump issued a vague threat to both Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, the secretary of state’s general counsel, suggesting that if they don’t find that thousands of ballots in Fulton County have been illegally destroyed to block investigators — an allegation for which there is no evidence — they would be subject to criminal liability.
“That’s a criminal offense,” he said. “And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”
Trump also told Raffensperger that failure to act by Tuesday would jeopardize the political fortunes of David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, Georgia’s two Republican senators whose fate in that day’s runoff elections will determine control of the U.S. Senate.
Trump said he plans to talk about the alleged fraud Monday, when he is scheduled to lead an election eve rally in Dalton, Ga. — a message that could further muddle the efforts of Republicans to draw their voters out.
“You have a big election coming up and because of what you’ve done to the president — you know, the people of Georgia know that this was a scam,” Trump said. “Because of what you’ve done to the president, a lot of people aren’t going out to vote, and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative, because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it. And they’re going to vote. And you would be respected, really respected, if this can be straightened out before the election.”
Trump’s conversation with Raffensperger put him in legally questionable territory, legal scholars said. By exhorting the secretary of state to “find” votes and to deploy investigators who “want to find answers,” the president appeared to be encouraging him to doctor the election outcome in Georgia.
Additionally, Trump’s apparent threat of criminal consequences if Raffensperger failed to act could be seen as an attempt at extortion and a suggestion that he might deploy the Justice Department to launch an investigation, they said.
“The president is either knowingly attempting to coerce state officials into corrupting the integrity of the election or is so deluded that he believes what he’s saying,” said Richard H. Pildes, a constitutional law professor at New York University, who noted that Trump’s actions may have violated several federal statutes.
But Pildes said Trump’s clearer transgression is a moral one, and he emphasized that focusing on whether he committed a crime could deflect attention from the “simple, stark, horrific fact that we have a president trying to use the powers of his office to pressure state officials into committing election fraud to keep him in office.”
Edward B. Foley, a law professor at Ohio State University, said that the legal questions are murky, and it could be difficult to prove that Trump knew he was encouraging illegal behavior. But Foley also emphasized that the call was “inappropriate and contemptible” and should prompt outrage.
“He was already tripping the emergency meter,” Foley said. “So we were at 12 on a scale of 1 to 10, and now we’re at 15.”
Throughout the call, Trump detailed an exhaustive list of disinformation and conspiracy theories to support his position. He claimed without evidence that he had won Georgia by at least a half-million votes. He floated a barrage of assertions that have been investigated and disproved: that thousands of dead people voted; that an Atlanta election worker scanned 18,000 forged ballots three times each and “100 percent” were for Biden; that thousands more voters living out of state came back to Georgia illegally just to vote in the election.
“So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election, and it’s not fair to take it away from us like this,” Trump said. “And it’s going to be very costly in many ways. And I think you have to say that you’re going to reexamine it, and you can reexamine it, but reexamine it with people that want to find answers, not people who don’t want to find answers.”
Election results under attack: Here are the facts
Trump did most of the talking. He was angry and impatient, calling Raffensperger a “child” and said law enforcement officials were “either dishonest or incompetent” for not believing there was widespread ballot fraud in Atlanta. He twice called himself a “schmuck” for endorsing Kemp, whom Trump holds in particular contempt for not embracing his claims.
“I can’t imagine he’s ever getting elected again, I’ll tell you that much right now,” he said of the governor.
He also took aim at Kemp’s 2018 opponent, Democrat Stacey Abrams, trying to shame Raffensperger with the idea that his refusal to embrace fraud has helped her and Democrats generally. “Stacey Abrams is laughing about you,” he said. “She’s going around saying, ‘These guys are dumber than a rock.’ What she’s done to this party is unbelievable, I tell ya.”
The secretary of state repeatedly sought to correct Trump, saying at one point, “Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, they — people can say anything.”
“Oh this isn’t social media,” Trump retorted. “This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not. It’s not social media. I don’t care about social media. I couldn’t care less.”
At another point, Trump claimed that votes were scanned three times: “Brad, why did they put the votes in three times? You know, they put ’em in three times.”
Raffensperger responded: “Mr. President, they did not. We did an audit of that and we proved conclusively that they were not scanned three times.”
Trump sounded at turns confused and meandering. At one point, he referred to Kemp as “George.” He tossed out several different figures for Biden’s margin of victory in Georgia and referred to the Senate runoff, which is Tuesday, as happening “tomorrow” and “Monday.”
His desperation was perhaps most pronounced during an exchange with Germany, Raffensperger’s general counsel, in which he openly begged for validation.
Trump: “Do you think it’s possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that’s what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that’s illegal, right?”
Germany responded: “No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County.”
Trump: “But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?”
Germany: “No.”
Trump: “Are you sure? Ryan?”
Germany: “I’m sure. I’m sure, Mr. President.”
Despite Trump’s intense hunt for voter fraud, officials in key states have so far identified just a small number of possible cases
It was clear from the call that Trump has surrounded himself with aides who have fed his false perceptions that the election was stolen. When he claimed that more than 5,000 ballots were cast in Georgia in the name of dead people, Raffensperger responded forcefully: “The actual number was two. Two. Two people that were dead that voted.”
But later, Meadows said, “I can promise you there are more than that.”
Another Trump lawyer on the call, Kurt Hilbert, accused Raffensperger’s office of refusing to turn over data to assess evidence of fraud, and also claimed awareness of at least 24,000 illegally cast ballots that would flip the result to Trump.
“It stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there’s something to hide,” Hilbert said. “That’s the problem that we have.”
Reached by phone Sunday, Hilbert declined to comment.
For her part, Mitchell contradicted Trump on several occasions on the call, saying, “Well, I don’t know about that,” when the president alleged that a Fulton County election worker had triple-counted 18,000 ballots for Biden. She claimed that the extent of the fraud is unclear because Raffensperger’s office has not shared all the data Trump’s lawyers have sought.
“We never had the records that you have,” she said. Germany noted that the office is barred under law from sharing certain voter information.
In the end, Trump asked Germany to sit down with one of his attorneys to go over the allegations. Germany agreed.
Yet Trump also recognized that he was failing to persuade Raffensperger or Germany of anything, saying toward the end, “I know this phone call is going nowhere.”
“Why don’t you want to find this, Ryan?” he asked of Germany. “What’s wrong with you? I heard your lawyer is very difficult, actually, but I’m sure you’re a good lawyer. You have a nice last name.”
But he continued to make his case in repetitive fashion, until finally, after roughly an hour, Raffensperger put an end to the conversation: “Thank you, President Trump, for your time.”
Full Phone Call: Trump Pressures Georgia Secretary of State To Recount Election Votes by NBC News Jan 3, 2021
During an hourlong phone call, President Trump pressured Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to overturn the 2020 election results. Trump said, “I just want to find 11,780 votes.”
***
Meadows: Mr. President, everyone is on the line. And just so -- this is Mark Meadows, the chief of staff. Just so we all are aware, on the line is the secretary of state, and two other individuals: Jordan and Mr. Germany with him. You also have the attorneys that represent the president, Kurt and Alex and Cleta Mitchell — who is not the attorney of record but has been involved — myself and then the president. So Mr. President, I'll turn it over to you.
Trump: OK, thank you very much. Hello Brad and Ryan and everybody. We appreciate the time and the call. So we've spent a lot of time on this, and if we could just go over some of the numbers I think it's pretty clear that we won. We won very substantially in Georgia. You even see it by rally size, frankly. We'd be getting 25-30,000 people a rally, and the competition would get less than 100 people. And it never made sense.
But we have a number of things. We have at least 2 or 3 — anywhere from 250-300,000 ballots were dropped mysteriously into the rolls. Much of that had to do with Fulton County, which hasn't been checked. We think that if you check the signatures — a real check of the signatures going back in Fulton County, you'll find at least a couple of hundred thousand of forged signatures, of people who have been forged. And we are quite sure that's going to happen.
Another tremendous number. We're going to have an accurate number over the next two days with certified accountants. But an accurate number will be given, but its in the 50s of thousands— and that's people that went to vote and they were told they can't vote because they've already been voted for. And it's a very sad thing. They walked out complaining. But the number's large. We'll have it for you. But it's much more than the number of 11,779 that's — The current margin is only 11,779. Brad, I think you agree with that, right? That's something I think everyone — at least that's a number that everyone agrees on.
But that's the difference in the votes. But we've had hundreds of thousands of ballots that we're able to actually — we'll get you a pretty accurate number. You don't need much of a number because the number that in theory I lost by, the margin would be 11,779. But you also have substantial numbers of people, thousands and thousands who went to the voting place on November 3, were told they couldn't vote, were told they couldn't vote because a ballot had been put in on their name. And you know that's very, very, very, very sad.
We had, I believe it's about 4,502 voters who voted but who weren't on the voter registration list. So it's 4,502 who voted, but they were not on the voter registration roll which they had to be. You had 18,325 vacant address voters. The address was vacant, and they're not allowed to be counted. That's 18,325.
A smaller number — you had 904 who only voted where they had just a P.O. — a post office box number — and they had a post office box number, and that's not allowed. We had at least 18,000 — that's on tape, we had them counted very painstakingly — 18,000 voters having to do with Ruby Freeman. She's a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler. Ruby Freeman. That was the tape that's been shown all over the world that makes everybody look bad, you, me, and everybody else.
Where they got — number one they said very clearly, and it's been reported, that they said there was a major water main break. Everybody fled the area. And then they came back, Ruby Freeman and her daughter and a few people. There were no Republican poll watchers. Actually, there were no Democrat poll watchers, I guess they were them. But there were no Democrats either, and there was no law enforcement. Late in the morning, they went early in the morning, they went to the table with the black robe, the black shield, and they pulled out the votes. Those votes were put there a number of hours before the table was put there. I think it was -- Brad you would know -- it was probably eight hours or seven hours before, and then it was stuffed with votes.
They weren't in an official voter box, they were in what looked to be suitcases or trunks, suitcases, but they weren't in voter boxes. The minimum number it could be, because we watched it, and they watched it certified in slow motion instant replay if you can believe it, but slow motion, and it was magnified many times over, and the minimum it was 18,000 ballots, all for Biden.
You had out-of-state voters -- they voted in Georgia, but they were from out of state -- of 4,925. You had absentee ballots sent to vacant, they were absentee ballots sent to vacant addresses. They had nothing on them about addresses, that's 2,326.
And you had drop boxes, which is very bad. You had drop boxes that were picked up. We have photographs, and we have affidavits from many people.
I don't know if you saw the hearings, but you have drop boxes where the box was picked up and not delivered for three days. So all sorts of things could have happened to that box including, you know, putting in the votes that you wanted. So there are many infractions, and the bottom line is, many, many times the 11,779 margin that they said we lost by. We had vast -- I mean the state is in turmoil over this.
And I know you would like to get to the bottom of it, although I saw you on television today, and you said that you found nothing wrong. I mean, you know, and I didn't lose the state, Brad. People have been saying that it was the highest vote ever. There was no way. A lot of the political people said that there's no way they beat me. And they beat me. They beat me in the, as you know, every single state, we won every state, we one every statehouse in the country. We held the Senate, which is shocking to people, although we'll see what happens tomorrow or in a few days.
And we won the House. But we won every single statehouse, and we won Congress, which was supposed to lose 15 seats, and they gained, I think 16 or 17 or something. I think there's now a difference of five. There was supposed to be a difference substantially more. But politicians in every state, but politicians in Georgia, have given affidavits, and are going to say that, that there was no way that they beat me in the election, that the people came out, in fact, they were expecting to lose, and then they ended up winning by a lot because of the coattails. And they said there's no way, that they've done many polls prior to the election. There was no way that they won.
Ballots were dropped in massive numbers. And we're trying to get to those numbers, and we will have them. They'll take a period of time. Certified. But, but, they're massive numbers. And far greater than the 11,779.
The other thing, dead people. So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.
The bottom line is when you add it all up, and then you start adding, you know, 300,000 fake ballots -- Then the other thing they said is in Fulton County and other areas. And this may or may not, because this just came up this morning, that they are burning their ballots, that they are shredding, shredding ballots, and removing equipment. They're changing the equipment on the Dominion machines and, you know, that's not legal.
And they supposedly shredded, I think they said 300 pounds of, 3,000 pounds of ballots. And that just came to us as a report today. And yeah, it is a very sad situation.
But Brad, if you took the minimum numbers, we're many, many times above the 11,779. And many of those numbers are certified, or they will be certified, but they are certified. And those are numbers that are there, and that exist. And that beat the margin of loss, they beat it, I mean by a lot, and people should be happy to have an accurate count instead of an election where there's turmoil.
I mean, there's turmoil in Georgia and other places. You're not the only one, I mean we have other states that I believe will be flipping to us very shortly. But this is something that — You know, as an example, I think in Detroit, and I think there's a section, a good section of your state actually, which we're not sure, so we're not going to report it yet. But in Detroit we had, I think it was 139% of the people voted. That's not too good.
In Pennsylvania, they had well over 200,000 more votes than they had people voting. And uh, that doesn't play too well, and the legislature there is, which is Republican, is extremely activist and angry. But, I mean, there were other things also that were almost as bad as that. But, uh, they had as an example, in Michigan, a tremendous number of dead people that voted. I think it was, I think, Mark, it was 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours -- you were in the 4-5,000 category.
And that was checked out laboriously by going through, by going through the obituary columns in the newspapers.
So I guess with all of it being said, Brad, the bottom line -- and provisional ballots, again, you know, you'll have to tell me about the provisional ballots, but we have a lot of people that were complaining that they weren't able to vote because they were already voted for. And these are great people.
And, you know, they were shellshocked. I don't know if you call that provisional ballots. In some states we had a lot of provisional ballot situations where people were given a provisional ballot, because when they walked in on November 3, they were already voted for.
So that's it. I mean, we have many many times the number of votes necessary to win the state. And we won the state, and we won it very substantially, and easily, and we're getting, we have, much of this is a very, you know they're certified, far more certified than we need. But we're getting additional numbers certified, too. And we're getting pictures of dropboxes being delivered, and delivered late. And delivered three days later, in some cases. Plus we have many affidavits to that effect.
Meadows: So Mr. President, if I might be able to jump in, and I'll give Brad a chance. Mr. Secretary, obviously there is, there are allegations where we believe that not every vote, or fair vote, and legal vote, was counted, and that's at odds with the representation from the secretary of state's office. What I'm hopeful for is there some way that we can, we can find some kind of agreement to look at this a little bit more fully? You know, the president mentioned Fulton County.
But in some of these areas where there seems to be a difference of where the facts seem to lead, and so Mr. Secretary, I was hopeful that, you know, in a spirit of cooperation and compromise, is there something that we can at least have a discussion to look at some of these allegations, to find a path forward that's less litigious?
Raffensperger: Well, I listened to what the President has just said. President Trump, we've had several lawsuits, and we've had to respond in court to the lawsuits and the contentions. Um, we don't agree that you have won. I didn't agree about the 200,000 number that you'd mentioned. And I can go through that point by point.
What we have done is we gave our state Senate about one and a half hours of our time going through the election issue by issue, and then on the state House, the government affairs committee, we gave them about two and a half hours of our time, going back point by point on all the issues of contention. And then just a few days ago, we met with our U.S. congressmen, Republican congressmen, and we gave them about two hours of our time talking about this past election. Going back, primarily what you've talked about here, focused in on primarily, I believe, is the absentee ballot process. I don't believe that you're really questioning the Dominion machines. Because we did a hand retally, a 100% retally of all the ballots, and compared that to what the machines said, and came up with virtually the same result. Then we did the recount, and we got virtually the same result. So I guess we can probably take that off the table. I don't think there's an issue about that.
I think what you--
Trump: Well, Brad, not that there's not an issue, because we have a big issue with Dominion in other states, and perhaps in yours. But we haven't felt we needed to go there. And just to, you know, maybe put a little different spin on what Mark is saying, Mark Meadows, uh, yeah, we'd like to go further, but we don't really need to. We have all the votes we need.
You know, we won the state. If you took, these are the most minimal numbers, the numbers that I gave you, those are numbers that are certified, your absentee ballots sent to vacant addresses, your out of state voters 4,925. You know, when you add them up, it's many, more times, it's many times the 11,779 number. So we could go through, we have not gone through your Dominion, so we can't give them blessing. I mean, in other states, we think we found tremendous corruption with Dominion machines, but we'll have to see.
But we only lost the state by that number, 11,000 votes, and 779. So with that being said, with just what we have, with just what we have, we're giving you minimal, minimal numbers. We're doing the most conservative numbers possible, we're many times, many, many times above the margin. And so we don't really have to, Mark, I don't think we have to go through ...
Meadows: Right, right.
Trump: Because, what's the difference between winning the election by two votes, and winning it by half a million votes? I think I probably did win it by half a million.
Meadows: Right.
Trump: You know, one of the things that happened, Brad, is we have other people coming in now from Alabama, and from South Carolina, and from other states, and they're saying it's impossible for you to have lost Georgia. We won. You know in Alabama, we set a record, got the highest vote ever. In Georgia, we set a record with a massive amount of votes. And they say it's not possible to have lost Georgia.
And I could tell you by our rallies. I could tell you by the rally I'm having on Monday night, the place, they already have lines of people standing out front waiting. It's just not possible to have lost Georgia. It's not possible. When I heard it was close, I said there's no way. But they dropped a lot of votes in there late at night. You know that, Brad. And that's what we are working on very, very stringently. But regardless of those votes, with all of it being said, we lost by essentially 11,000 votes, and we have many more votes already calculated and certified, too.
And so I just don't know, you know, Mark, I don't know what's the purpose. I won't give Dominion a pass because we found too many bad things. But we don't need Dominion, or anything else. We have won this election in Georgia based on all of this. And there's nothing wrong with saying that, Brad. You know I mean, having the correct — the people of Georgia are angry. And these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night, along with others that we're going to have by that time which are much more substantial even. And the people of Georgia are angry. The people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you've recalculated. Because the 2,236 in absentee ballots, I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, etc., and even if you cut 'em in half, cut 'em in half, and cut 'em in half, again, it's more votes than we need.
Raffensperger: Well Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong. We talked to the congressmen, and they were surprised.
But they — I guess there was a person Mr. Braynard that came to these meetings, and presented data, and he said that there was dead people, I believe it was upward of 5,000. The actual number were two. Two. Two people that were dead that voted. And so that's wrong. That was two.
Trump: Well Cleta, how do you respond to that? I mean, you tell me.
Mitchell: Well, I would say Mr. Secretary, one of the things that we have requested, and what we said was, and if you look at this, if you read our petition, it said that we took the names and birth years, and we had certain information available to us. We have asked from your office for records that only you have, and so we said there is a universe of people who have the same name and same birth year and died.
But we don't have the records that you have. And one of the things that we have been suggesting, formally and informally for weeks now, is for you to make available to us the records that would be necessary —
Trump: But Cleta, even before you do that, and not even including that, that's why I hardly even included that number, although in one state we have a tremendous amount of dead people. So I don't know — I'm sure we do in Georgia, too. I'm sure we do in Georgia too.
But, um, we're so far ahead. We're so far ahead of these numbers, even the phony ballots of Ruby Freeman, known scammer. You know the Internet? You know what was trending on the Internet? "Where's Ruby?" Because they thought she'd be in jail. "Where's Ruby?" It's crazy, it's crazy. That was. The minimum number is 18,000 for Ruby, but they think it's probably about 56,000. But the minimum number is 18,000 on the Ruby Freeman night where she ran back in there when everybody was gone and stuffed, she stuffed the ballot boxes. Let's face it, Brad, I mean. They did it in slow motion replay magnified, right? She stuffed the ballot boxes. They were stuffed like nobody has ever seen them stuffed before.
So there's a term for it when it's a machine instead of a ballot box, but she stuffed the machine. She stuffed the ballot — each ballot went three times. They were showing: Here's ballot No 1, here it is a second time, a third time, next ballot.
I mean, look. Brad. We have a new tape that we're going to release. It's devastating. And by the way, that one event, that one event is much more than the 11,000 votes that we're talking about. It's uh, you know, that one event was a disaster. And it's just, you know, but it was, it was something that it can't be disputed. And again, we have a version that you haven't seen but it's magnified. It's magnified, and you can see everything. And she put, for some reason they put it in three times, each ballot, and I don't know why. I don't know why three times. Why not five times, right? Yeah, go ahead.
Raffensperger: You're talking about the State Farm video. And I think it's extremely unfortunate that Rudy Giuliani or his people, they sliced and diced that video and took it out of context. The next day we brought in WSB-TV and we let them show, see the full run of tape, and what you'll see, the events that transpired are nowhere near what was projected by, you know —
Georgia election officials shows frame-by-frame of State Farm Arena Election Night video WSB-TV Dec 5, 2020
Georgia official fires back at Trump's election conspiracies Jan 4, 2021 Gabriel Sterling, the Republican in charge of Georgia's voting system, pleaded with Georgians to go out and vote in the Senate run off while also debunking each of President Trump's and his supporters baseless election claims.
Trump: But where were the poll watchers, Brad? There were no poll watchers there. There were no Democrats or Republicans. There was no security there. It was late in the evening, late in the, early in the morning, and there was nobody else in the room. Where were the poll watchers, and why did they say a water main broke, which they did, and which is reported in the newspapers? They said they left. They ran out because of a water main break. And there was no water main. There was nothing. There was no break. There was no water main break. But we're, if you take out everything, where were the Republican poll watchers? Even where were the Democrat poll watchers, because there were none?
And then you say, well, they left their station, you know, if you look at the tape, and this was, this was reviewed by professional police, and detectives, and other people, when they left in a rush, everybody left in a rush because of the water main, but everybody left in a rush. These people left their station.
When they came back, they didn't go to their station. They went to the apron, wrapped around the table, under which were thousands and thousands of ballots in a box that was not an official or a sealed box. And then they took those and they went back to a different station. So if they would have come back, they would have walked to their station, and they would have continued to work. But they couldn't do even that because that's illegal, because they had no Republican poll watchers. And remember, her reputation is devas... — she's known all over the Internet, Brad. She's known all over.
I'm telling you, "Where's Ruby?" was one of the hot items. Ruby -- they knew her. "Where's Ruby?" So Brad, you know, there can be no justification for that. And I you know, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But that was — and Brad, why did they put the votes in three times? You know, they put 'em in three times.
Raffensperger: Mr. President, they did not do that. We did an audit of that, and we proved conclusively that they were not scanned three times.
Trump: Well, where was everybody else at that late time in the morning? Where was everybody? Where were the Republicans? Where were the security guards? Where were the people that were there just a little while before when everyone ran out of the room? How come we had no security in the room? Why did they run to the bottom of the table? Why did they run there, and just open the skirt and rip out the votes? I mean, Brad. And they were sitting there, I think for five hours or something like that, the votes. But they just all happened to run back and go, you know, Brad...
Raffensperger: Mr. President, we'll send you the link from WSB that --
Trump: I don't care about a link. I don't need it, Brad. I have a much better link —
Mitchell: I will tell you, I've seen the tape. The full tape. So has Alex. We've watched it. And what we saw, and what we've confirmed in the timing, is that they made everybody leave, we have sworn affidavits saying that. And then they began to process ballots. And our estimate is that there were roughly 18,000 ballots. We don't know that. If you know that ...
Trump: It was 18,000 ballots, but they used each one three times.
Mitchell: Well, I don't know about that, but what I do know --
Trump: I do think because we had ours magnified out. Each one magnified out is 18 times three --
Mitchell: I watched the entire tape.
Trump: But nobody can make a case for that, Brad. Nobody. I mean, look, you'd have to be a child to think anything other than that. Just a child. I mean, you have your never Trumper U.S. attorney there.
Mitchell: How many ballots, Mr. Secretary, are you saying that were processed then?
Raffensperger: We had GBI thoroughly investigate that.
Germany: We had our — this is Ryan Germany. We had our law enforcement officers talk to everyone who was who was there after that event came to light. GBI was with them, as well as FBI agents.
Trump: Well, there's no way they could — then they're incompetent. They're either dishonest or incompetent, okay?
Mitchell: Well, what did they find?
Trump: There's only two answers, dishonesty or incompetence. There's just no way. Look, there's no way. And on the other thing, I said too, there is no way. I mean, there's no way that these things could have been, you know, you have all these different people that voted, but they don't live in Georgia anymore. What was that number, Cleta? That was a pretty good number too.
Mitchell: Well, the number who had registered out of state after they moved from Georgia, and so they had a date when they moved from Georgia, they registered to vote out of state, and then it's like 4,500, I don't have that right in front of me.
Trump: And then they came back in and they voted.
Mitchell: And voted. Yeah.
Trump: That was a large number, though. It was in the 20s. And, you know, the point is...
Germany: We've been going through each of those as well, and those numbers that we got, that Ms. Mitchell was just saying, they're not accurate. Every one we've been through are people that lived in Georgia, moved to a different state, but then moved back to Georgia legitimately. And in many cases --
Trump: How many people do that? You mean, they moved out, and then they said, "Ah, to hell with it, I'll move back in." You know, it doesn't sound like a very normal ... you mean, they moved out, and what, they missed it so much that they wanted to move back in? [Laughter] It's crazy.
Germany: This is -- they moved back in years ago. This was not like something just before the election. So there's something about that data that it's just not accurate.
Trump: Well, I don't know, all I know is that it is certified. And they moved out of Georgia and they voted. It didn't say they moved back in Cleta, did it?
Mitchell: No, but I mean, we're looking at the voter registration. Again, if you have additional records, we've been asking for that, but you haven't shared any of that with us. You just keep saying you investigated the allegations.
Trump: But, Cleta, a lot of it you don't need to be shared. I mean, to be honest, they should share it. They should share it, because you want to get to an honest election.
I won this election by hundreds of thousands of votes. There's no way I lost Georgia. There's no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes. I'm just going by small numbers, when you add them up they're many times the 11,000. But I won that state by hundreds of thousands of votes.
Now, do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County, because that's what the rumor is? And also that Dominion took out machines? That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery? Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal, right?
Germany: This is Ryan Germany. No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County.
Trump: But have they moved the inner parts of the machines, and replaced them with other parts?
Germany: No.
Trump: Are you sure, Ryan?
Germany: I'm sure. I'm sure, Mr. President.
Trump: What about, what about the ballots? The shredding of the ballots? Have they been shredding ballots?
Germany: No. The only investigation that we have into that — they have not been shredding any ballots. There was an issue in Cobb County where they were doing normal office shredding, getting rid of old stuff, and we investigated that. But this is stuff from, you know, from you know past elections.
Trump: I don't know. It doesn't pass the smell test though, because we hear they're shredding thousands and thousands of ballots, and now what they're saying, "Oh, we're just cleaning up the office." [Laughter] So I don't think they're cleaning.
Raffensperger: Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, they — people can say anything.
Trump: No, this isn't social media. This is Trump media. It's not social media. It's really not, it's not social media. I don't care about social media. I couldn't care less. Social media is Big Tech. Big Tech is on your side. I don't even know why you have a side, because you should want to have an accurate election. And you're a Republican.
Raffensperger: We believe that we do have an accurate election.
Trump: No, no you don't. No, no you don't. You don't have. You don't have. Not even close. You're off by hundreds of thousands of votes. And just on the small numbers, you're off on these numbers, and these numbers can't be just — well, why wont? — Okay.
So you sent us into Cobb County for signature verification, right? You sent us into Cobb County, which we didn't want to go into. And you said it would be open to the public. And we could have our -- So we had our experts there; they weren't allowed into the room. But we didn't want Cobb County. We wanted Fulton County. And you wouldn't give it to us. Now, why aren't we doing signature — and why can't it be open to the public? And why can't we have professionals do it instead of rank amateurs who will never find anything, and don't want to find anything? They don't want to find, you know, they don't want to find anything. Someday you'll tell me the reason why, because I don't understand your reasoning, but someday you'll tell me the reason why. But why don't you want to find?
Germany: Mr. President, we chose Cobb County —
Trump: Why don't you want to find ... What?
Germany: Sorry, go ahead.
Trump: So why did you do Cobb County? We didn't even request — we requested Fulton County, not Cobb County. Yeah, go ahead please. Go ahead.
Germany: We chose Cobb County because that was the only county where there's been any evidence submitted that the signature verification was not properly done.
Trump: No, but I told you. We're not, we're not saying that.
Mitchell: We did say that. We did say that.
Trump: Fulton County. Look. Stacey, in my opinion, Stacey is as dishonest as they come. She has outplayed you at everything. She got you to sign a totally unconstitutional agreement, which is a disastrous agreement. You can't check signatures. You can't do -- I can't imagine, you're allowed to do harvesting, I guess, in that agreement. That agreement is a disaster for this country. But she got you somehow to sign that thing, and she has outsmarted you at every step.
And I hate to imagine what's going to happen on Monday or Tuesday, but it's very scary to people. You know, where the ballots flow in out of nowhere. It's very scary to people. That consent decree is a disaster. It's a disaster. A very good lawyer who examined it said they've never seen anything like it.
Raffensperger: Harvesting is still illegal in the state of Georgia. And that settlement agreement did not change that one iota.
Trump: It's not a settlement agreement, it's a consent decree. It even says consent decree on it, doesn't it? It uses the term consent decree. It doesn't say settlement agree. It's a consent decree. It's a disaster.
Raffensperger: It's a settlement agreement.
Trump: What's written on top of it?
Raffensperger: Ryan?
Germany: I don't have it in front of me, but it was not entered by the court, it's not a court order.
Trump: But Ryan, it's called a consent decree, is that right? On the paper. Is that right?
Germany: I don't, I don't, I don't believe so, but I don't have it in front of me.
Trump: OK, whatever, it's a disaster. It's a disaster. Look. Here's the problem. We can go through signature verification, and we'll find hundreds of thousands of signatures, if you let us do it. And the only way you can do it, as you know, is to go to the past. But you didn't do that in Cobb County. You just looked at one page compared to another. The only way you can do a signature verification is go from the one that signed it on November whatever -- recently -- and compare it to two years ago, four years ago, six years ago, you know, or even one. And you'll find that you have many different signatures. But in Fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren't even signed, and you have many that are forgeries.
OK, you know that. You know that. You have no doubt about that. And you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes, because Fulton County is totally corrupt, and so is she, totally corrupt.
And they're going around playing you and laughing at you behind your back, Brad, whether you know it or not, they're laughing at you, and you've taken a state that's a Republican state, and you've made it almost impossible for a Republican to win because of cheating, because they cheated like nobody's ever cheated before. And I don't care how long it takes me, you know, we're going to have other states coming forward — pretty good.
But I won't -- this is never given -- this is -- We have some incredible talent said they've never seen anything -- Now the problem is they need more time for the big numbers. But they're very substantial numbers. But I think you're going to find that they — by the way, a little information, I think you're going to find that they are shredding ballots, because they have to get rid of the ballots because the ballots are unsigned. The ballots are corrupt, and they're brand new, and they don't have seals, and there's the whole thing with the ballots. But the ballots are corrupt.
And you are going to find that they are — which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did, and you're not reporting it. That's a criminal, that's a criminal offense. And you know, you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that's a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I've heard. And they are removing machinery, and they're moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal fines. And you can't let it happen, and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I'm notifying you that you're letting it happen.
So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. And flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, cause you know, this is — it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake, or whatever you want to call it. If it was a mistake, I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake; it was much more criminal than that. But it's a big problem in Georgia, and it's not a problem that's going away. I mean, you know, it's not a problem that's going away.
Germany: M.r President, this is Ryan. We're looking into every one of those things that you mentioned. And our investigators --
Trump: Good. But if you find it, you've got to say it, Ryan. Look, let me, Ryan, Ryan -- Go ahead.
Germany: Let me tell you what we are seeing. What we're seeing is not at all what you're describing. These are investigators from our office, these are investigators from GBI, and they're looking and they're good. And that's not what they're seeing. And we'll keep looking, we'll keep looking at all these things.
Trump: Well, you better check on the ballot,s because they are shredding ballots, Ryan. I'm just telling you, Ryan. They're shredding ballots. And you should look at that very carefully. Because that's so illegal. You know, you may not even believe it because it's so bad. But they're shredding ballots because they think we're going to eventually get there, because we'll eventually get into Fulton. You know, in my opinion it's never too late --
So, that's the story, fellas. Look, we need only 11,000 votes. We have far more than that as it stands now. We'll have more and more. And do you have provisional ballots at all, Brad? Provisional ballots?
Raffensperger: Provisional ballots are allowed by state law.
Trump: Sure, but you have them, I mean, are they counted, or did you just hold them back because they, you know, in other words, how many provisional ballots do you have in the state?
Raffensperger: We'll get you that number.
Trump: Because most of them are made out to the name Trump. Because these are people that were scammed when they came in. And we have thousands of people that have testified, or that want to testify, when they came in they were proudly going to vote on November 3. And they were told, "I'm sorry, you've already been voted for, you've already voted." The women, men started screaming, "No. I proudly voted til November 3." They said, "I'm sorry, but you've already been voted for, and you have a ballot." And these people are beside themselves. So they went out and they filled in a provisional ballot, putting the name Trump on it.
And what about that batch of military ballots that came in? And even though I won the military by a lot, it was 100 percent Trump -- I mean 100 percent Biden. Do you know about that? A large group of ballots came in -- I think it was to Fulton County -- and they just happened to be 100 percent for Trump, even though — for Biden -- even though Trump won the military by a lot, you know, a tremendous amount. But these ballots were 100 percent for Biden. And do you know about that? A very substantial number came in, all for Biden. Does anybody know about it?
Mitchell: I know about it, but —
Trump: OK, Cleta, I'm not asking you Cleta, honestly. I'm asking Brad. Do you know about the military ballots that we have confirmed now? Do you know about the military ballots that came in that were 100 percent, I mean 100 percent for Biden? Do you know about that?
Germany: I don't know about that. I do know that we have when military ballots come in, it's not just military, it's also military and overseas citizens. The military part of that does generally go Republican. The overseas citizen part of it generally goes very Democrat. This was a mix of 'em.
Trump: No, but this was. That's OK. But I got like 78 percent in the military. These ballots were all for -- They didn't tell me overseas. Could be overseas too, but I get votes overseas too, Ryan, you know, in all fairness. No, they came in, a large batch came in, and it was, quote, 100 percent for Biden. And that is criminal. You know, that's criminal, OK? That's another criminal, that's another of the many criminal events, many criminal events here.
Oh, I don't know, look Brad. I got to get, I have to find 12,000 votes, and I have them times a lot. And therefore, I won the state. That's before we go to the next step, which is in the process of right now. You know, and I watched you this morning and you said, uh, well, there was no criminality. But I mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. When you talk about no criminality, I think it's very dangerous for you to say that.
I just, I just don't know why you don't want to have the votes counted as they are. Like even you when you went and did that check. And I was surprised because, you know, the check, and we found a few thousand votes that were against me. I was actually surprised, because the way that check was done, all you're doing is, you know, recertifying existing votes and, you know, and you were given votes and you just counted them up, and you still found 3,000 that were bad. So that was sort of surprising that it came down to three or five, I don't know, still a lot of votes. But you have to go back to check from past years with respect to signatures. And if you check with Fulton County, you'll have hundreds of thousands, because they dumped ballots into Fulton County, and the other county next to it.
So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already. Or we can keep it going, but that's not fair to the voters of Georgia, because they're going to see what happened, and they're going to see what happened. I mean, I'll, I'll take on anybody you want with regard to Ruby Freeman and her lovely daughter, a very lovely young lady, I'm sure. But, but Ruby Freeman, I will take Freeman, I will take on anybody you want. And the minimum, there were 18,000 ballots, but they used them three times. So that's, you know, a lot of votes. And that one event, and they were all to Biden, by the way. That's the other thing we didn't say. You know, the Ruby Freeman, the one thing I forgot to say, which was the most important, you know that every single ballot she did went to Biden? You know that, right? Do you know that, by the way, Brad? Every single ballot that she did through the machine at early, early in the morning, went to Biden. Did you know that, Ryan?
Germany: That's not accurate, Mr. President.
Trump: Huh. What is accurate?
Germany: The numbers that we are showing are accurate.
Trump: No, about Ruby Freeman. About early in the morning, Ryan. When the woman took, you know, when the whole gang took the stuff out from under the table, right? Do you know, do you know who those ballots, who they were made out to? Do you know who they were voting for?
Germany: No, not specifically.
Trump: Did you ever check?
Germany: We did what I described to you earlier —
Trump: No no no — did you ever check the ballots that were scammed by Ruby Freeman, a known political operative balloteer? Did ever check who those votes were for?
Germany: We looked into that situation that you described.
Trump: No, they were 100 percent for Biden. 100 percent. There wasn't a Trump vote in the whole group. Why don't you want to find this, Ryan? What's wrong with you? I heard your lawyer is very difficult, actually, but I'm sure you're a good lawyer. You have a nice last name. But, but I'm just curious why wouldn't, why do you keep fighting this thing? It just doesn't make sense. We're way over the 17,779, right? We're way over that number. And just if you took just Ruby Freeman, we're over that number by five, five or six times when you multiply that times three.
And every single ballot went to Biden. And you didn't know that, but, now you know it. So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election, and it's not fair to take it away from us like this. And it's going to be very costly in many ways. And I think you have to say that you're going to reexamine it, and you can reexamine it, but reexamine it with people that want to find answers, not people that don't want to find answers. For instance, I'm hearing Ryan, and he's probably I'm sure a great lawyer and everything. But he's making statements about those ballots that he doesn't know. But he's making them with such — he did make them with surety. But now I think he's less sure, because the answer is they all went to Biden, and that alone wins us the election by a lot. You know so.
Raffensperger: Mr. President, you have people that submit information, and we have our people that submit information. And then it comes before the court, and the court then has to make a determination. We have to stand by our numbers. We believe our numbers are right.
Trump: Why do you say that, though? I don't know. I mean, sure, we can play this game with the courts, but why do you say that? First of all they don't even assign us a judge. They don't even assign us a judge. But why wouldn't you — Hey Brad, why wouldn't you want to check out Ruby Freeman? And why wouldn't you want to say, "Hey, if in fact, President Trump is right about that, then he wins the state of Georgia, just that one incident alone without going through hundreds of thousands of dropped ballots." You just say, you stick by -- I mean, I've been watching you for, you know, you don't care about anything. "Your numbers are right." But your numbers aren't right. They're really wrong, and they're really wrong, Brad. And I know this phone call is going nowhere other than, other than ultimately, you know — Look ultimately, I win, okay?
Mitchell: Mr. Secretary...
Trump: Because you guys are so wrong. And you treated this, you treated the population of Georgia so badly. You, between you and your governor, who was down at 21 -- he was down 21 points. And like a schmuck, I endorsed him, and he got elected. But I will tell you, he is a disaster. And he'll never, I can't imagine the people are so angry in Georgia, I can't imagine he's ever getting elected again! I'll tell you that much right now. But why wouldn't you want to find the right answer, Brad, instead of keep saying that the numbers are right? Cause those numbers are so wrong.
Mitchell: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President, one of the things that we have been, Alex can talk about this, we talked about it, and I don't know whether the information has been conveyed to your office, but I think what the president is saying, and what we've been trying to do is to say, look, the court is not acting on our petition. They haven't even assigned a judge. But the people of Georgia, and the people of America, have a right to know the answers. And you have data and records that we don't have access to. And you keep telling us, and making public statements, that you investigated this, and you know, nothing to see here. But we don't know about that. All we know is what you tell us. What I don't understand is why wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because -- to try to be able to get to the truth, because we don't have any way of confirming what you're telling us. You tell us that you've had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don't have any report. I've never seen a report of investigation. I don't know that is. I've been pretty involved in this, and I don't know. And that's just one of like 25 categories. And it doesn't even, and as I, as the president said, we haven't even gotten into the Dominion issue. That's not part of our case. It's not part of, we just didn't feel as though we had any way to be able to develop —
Trump: No, we do have a way, but I don't want to get into it. We found a way in other states -- excuse me, but we don't need it, because we're only down 11,000 votes, so we don't even need it. I personally think they're corrupt as hell. But we don't need that. Because all we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. So we don't need that. I'm not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic simple numbers, we won it easily, easily. So we're not giving Dominion a pass on the record.
Mitchell: Right, right, exactly.
[Trump] We just, we don't need Dominion, because we have so many other votes, that we don't need to prove it any more than we already have.
Hilbert: Mr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert, if I might interject here for a moment. Um Ryan, I would like to suggest that just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 votes that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results, or place the outcome in doubt. We would like to just sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of compromise and settlement just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes. And if you are able to establish that our numbers are not accurate, then fine. However, we believe that they are accurate. We've had now three to four separate experts look at these numbers. These numbers are based upon the US ---
Trump: And certified accountants looked at them.
Hilbert: Correct. And this is just based on USPS data and your own secretary of state data. So that's what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlement proceeding, and actually go through the registered voter IDs and registrations. And if you can convince us that that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that that is, you know, obviously more than 11,779. That's sufficient to change the results entirely in and of itself. So what would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
Germany: Kurt, um I'm happy to get with our lawyers, and we'll set that up. That number is not accurate. And I think we can show you, for all the ones we've looked at, why it's not. And so if that would be helpful, I'm happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
Trump: Well, let me ask you, Kurt, you think that is an accurate number. That was based on the information given to you by the secretary of state's department, right?
Hilbert: That is correct. That information is the minimum most conservative data based upon the USPS data and the secretary of state's office data that has been made publicly available. We do not have the internal numbers from the secretary of state. Yet, we have asked for it six times. I sent a letter over to Mr... several times requesting this information, and it's been rebuffed every single time. So it stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming, there's something to hide. That's the problem that we have.
Germany: Well, that's not the case sir. There's things that you guys are entitled to get, and there's things that under the law, we are not allowed to give out.
Trump: Well, you have to. Well, under law you're not allowed to give faulty election results, OK? You're not allowed to do that. And that's what you done. This is a faulty election result. And honestly, this should go very fast. You should meet tomorrow, because you have a big election coming up ,and because of what you've done to the president — you know, the people of Georgia know that this was a scam. And because of what you've done to the president, a lot of people aren't going out to vote, and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative because they hate what you did to the president. Okay? They hate it. And they're going to vote. And you would be respected, really respected, if this thing could be straightened out before the election. You have a big election coming up on Tuesday, and therefore I think that it is really important that you meet tomorrow and work out on these numbers. Because I know Brad that if you think we're right, I think you're going to say, and I'm not looking to blame anybody. I'm just saying you know, and you know under new counts, and under uh, new views of the election results, we won the election. You know? It's very simple. We won the election. As the governors of major states and the surrounding states said, there is no way you lost Georgia. As the Georgia politicians say, there is no way, you lost Georgia. Nobody. Everyone knows I won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But I'll tell you, it's going to have a big impact on Tuesday if you guys don't get this thing straightened out fast.
Meadows: Well, Mr. President, this is Mark. Let me just -- It sounds like we've got two different sides agreeing that we can look at those areas, and I assume that we can do that within the next 24 to 48 hours to go ahead and get that reconciled so that we can look at the two claims, and making sure that we get the access to the secretary of state's data to either validate or invalidate the claims that have been made. Is that correct?
Germany: No, that's not what I said. I'm happy to have our lawyers sit down with Kurt and the lawyers on that side and explain to him, "Hey, here's, based on what we've looked at so far, here's how we know this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong."
Meadows: So what you're saying, Ryan, hold on, let me, let me make sure -- so what you're saying is you really don't want to give access to the data? You just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong?
Germany: I don't think we can give access to data that's protected by law. But we can sit down with them and say —
Trump: But you're allowed to have a phony election? You're allowed to have a phony election right?
Germany: No sir.
Trump: When are you going to do the signature counts? When are you going to do signature verification on Fulton County, which you said you were going to do, and now all of a sudden you're not doing it. When are you doing that?
Germany: We are going to do that. We've announced —
Hilbert: To get to this issue of the personal information and privacy issue, is it possible that the secretary of state could deputize the lawyers for the president, so that we could access that information and private information without you having any kind of violation?
Trump: Well, I don't want to know who it is. You guys can do it very confidentially. You can sign a confidentiality agreement. That's OK. I don't need to know names. But we got the information on this stuff that we're talking about. We got all that information from the secretary of state.
Meadows: Yeah. So let me, let me recommend, Ryan, if you and Kurt will get together, you know, when we get off of this phone call, if you could get together and work out a plan to address some of what we've got with your attorneys, where we can we can actually look at the data. For example, Mr. Secretary, I can tell you say there were only two dead people who would vote. I can promise you there were more than that. And that may be what your investigation shows, but I can promise you there were more than that. But at the same time, I think it's important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this, and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can. And if that's the good next step, hopefully we can, we can finish this phone call, and go ahead and agree that the two of you will get together immediately.
Trump: Well why don't my lawyers show you where you got the information. It will show the secretary of state, and you don't even have to look at any names. We don't want names. We don't care. But we got that information from you. And Stacey Abrams is laughing about -- you know she's going around saying these guys are dumber than a rock? What she's done to this party is unbelievable, I tell ya. And I only ran against her once. And that was with a guy named Brian Kemp. And I beat her. And if I didn't run, Brian wouldn't have had even a shot, either in the general or in the primary. He was dead, dead as a doornail. He never thought he had a shot at either one of them. What a schmuck I was. But that's the way it is. That's the way it is.
I would like you to, for the attorneys, I'd like you to perhaps meet with Ryan ideally tomorrow, because I think we should come to a resolution of this before the election. Otherwise you're going to have people just not voting. They don't want to vote. They hate the state; they hate the governor; and they hate the secretary of state. I will tell you that right now. And the only people that like you are people that will never vote for you. You know that Brad, right? They like you, you know, they like you. They can't believe what they found. They want more people like you.
So, look, can you get together tomorrow? And Brad. We just want the truth. It's simple. And everyone's going to look very good if the truth comes out. It's OK. It takes a little while, but let the truth come out. And the real truth is I won by 400,000 votes at least. That's the real truth. But we don't need 400,000 votes. We need less than 2,000 votes. And are you guys able to meet tomorrow Ryan?
Germany: Um, I'll get with Chris, the lawyer who is representing us in the case, and see when he can get together with Kurt.
Raffensperger: Ryan will be in touch with the other attorney on this call, Mr. Meadows. Thank you President Trump for your time.
Trump: OK, thank you, Brad. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you very much. Bye.
Former US Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal: ‘Donald Trump Sounds Like A Mob Boss’ by Katie Couric Jan 4, 2021
I chatted with Supreme Court lawyer and former US Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal on Instagram Live about the leaked audio call between President Trump and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. “If I’m Donald Trump right now this is really very troubling,” Katyal said. “You could dismiss the Ukraine transcript, nobody got to listen to that phone call, but you hear these words and they are chilling. He sounds like a mob boss.”
We also discussed if Trump could still be impeached since he only has 16 days in office. “A former president can be impeached in order to disqualify him from further office holding,” Katyal said.
