by Mehdi Hasan
MSNBC
Sep 28, 2023 #ElonMusk #X #Twitter
Twitter’s former Head of Trust and Safety Yoel Roth resigned just weeks after Elon Musk took over the platform, citing his disagreements with its new policies. Soon after, Musk attacked Roth online and led his army of internet trolls in a smear campaign that spread like wildfire. Yoel Roth joins Mehdi to talk about that experience and discuss the future of the platform now known as X.
Transcript
[MEHDI HASAN] ALL OF THIS MAKES ME WONDER WHAT
FORMER TWITTER EXECUTIVE YOEL ROTH WAS
THINKING WHEN MUSK CHALLENGED THE BBC TO
THEY WERE BEING COME UP WITH A EXAMPLE OF HATE
SPEECH ON THE PLATFORM. ROTH WAS THE HEAD OF TRUST & SAFETY
AT TWITTER, THE GUY WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR
CONTENT MODERATION, AND FOR TACKLING HATE AND MISINFORMATION ON THE SITE. HE
RESIGNED IN NOVEMBER, 2022, JUST WEEKS AFTER MUSK
TOOK OVER, WRITING IN THE NEW
YORK TIMES THAT A TWITTER WHOSE POLICIES
ARE DEFINED BY EDICT HAS
LITTLE NEED FOR A TRUST AND
SAFETY FUNCTION DEDICATED TO ITS PRINCIPLED DEVELOPMENT.
AND APPARENTLY, THAT RUBBED MUSK THE
WRONG WAY, BECAUSE
THE FOLLOWING WEEK, THE CHIEF TWIT POSTED AN
OUT OF CONTEXT QUOTE FROM ROTH'S PH.D
DISSERTATIO, SMEARING HIM, CAUSING PEOPLE TO ATTACK ROTH AS A "GROOMER."
WITH ONE TWEET, THE FLOODGATES
OPENED.
ROTH RECEIVED THOUSANDS OF
THREATS AND HE WAS EVENTUALLY FORCED TO SELL HIS HOME AND MOVE IN ORDER TO
PROTECT HIMSELF AND HIS HUSBAND.
EARLIER THIS MONTH, ROTH
REFLECTED ON THIS EXPERIENCE, AND THE WAVE OF HATE
HE RECEIVED AT THE HANDS OF
MUSK AND HIS ONLINE ARMY, AND BEFORE THAT, AT THE HANDS OF TRUMP. AS ROTH
WROTE ONCE MORE ON THE NEW YORK TIMES OP ED PAGE,
"FEW PEOPLE COULD BE EXPECTED TO
TAKE A JOB DOING SO IF THE COST IS THEIR
LIFE OR LIBERTY.
WE ALL NEED TO RECOGNIZE THIS
NEW REALITY, AND TO PLAN ACCORDINGLY." IT IS A TRULY FRIGHTENING REALITY.
AND HERE TO TALK ABOUT IS THE MAN
HIMSELF, YOEL ROTH. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
COMING ON THE SHOW TODAY. YOEL,
CAN YOU DESCRIBE TO OUR VIEWERS
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN ELON MUSK WRONGLY ACCUSED YOU -- A GAY MAN -- OF ADVOCATING FOR CHILDREN HAVING ACCESS TO ADULT INTERNET SERVICES BACK IN YOUR PH.D. THESIS, WHICH
LED TO THE BARRAGE OF "GROOMER"
ACCUSATIONS AGAINST YOU? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU SAW THAT TWEET?
WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION, AND WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU NEXT IN YOUR
LIFE?
[YOEL ROTH] THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
WHEN THAT POST FIRST WENT UP
FROM ELON MUSK, I WAS AT HOME ALREADY
DEALING WITH A BARRAGE OF HARRASSMENT FOLLOWING
MY RESIGNATION FROM THE COMPANY.
I HAD TRIED TO LEAVE TWITTER
QUIETLY.
I HADN'T ATTACKED ELON MUSK OR
THE COMPANY. IN FACT, WHEN I QUIT MY JOB,
I HAD A PHONE CALL WITH HIM, AND SAID THAT I
WAS ROOTING FOR HIM AND ROOTING
FOR TWITTER'S SUCCESS. AND YET,
IN RESPONSE TO PROVOCATIONS FROM
MANY OF THE ACCOUNTS HE NTERACTS WITH ON
TWITTER, MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT HE
CITED TODAY, HE POSTED AN OUT-OF-
CONTEXT EXTRACT FROM MY
DISSERTATION, COMPLETELY
WARPING WHAT THE WORDS ON THE
PAGE ACTUALLY SAY.
HIS ARGUMENT WAS THAT TWITTER'S
LONG-STANDING CHALLENGES AND
STRUGGLES WITH CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE , WORK THAT THE COMPANY
HAD BEEN DOING FOR YEARS TO ADDRESS
WAS, IN FACT, NOT JUST A PROBLEM THAT
ALL SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES FACE,
BUT THE PRODUCT OF MY DECISIONS, AND IN FACT,
MY DESIRE TO ENABLE CHILD
SEXUAL ABUSE ON THE INTERNET.
NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM
THE TRUTH. BUT,
ALMOST AS SOON AS THAT TWEET
WENT OUT, IT UNLEASHED A
TORRENT OF ABUSE, BOTH ON TWITTER, BY EMAIL,
BY PHONE CALLS AND TEXT MESSAGES.
EVERY MEDIUM IMAGINABLE. I WAS
CALLED A GROOMER.
I WAS TOLD I SHOULD BE THROWN
INTO A WOOD CHIPPER ALIVE.
A PARTICULAR FAVORITE FOR 4CHAN USERS AS A
PUNISHMENT FOR GAY PEOPLE. AND, ULTIMATELY, AS A
PRODUCT OF THE HARASSMENT AND ULTIMATELY
THE DISCLOSURE OF WHERE MY
HUSBAND AND I LIVED, I HAD TO
LEAVE MY HOME, I HAD TO SELL MY
HOUSE,
I LIVED IN HIDING FOR A NUMBER
OF MONTHS. AND ONLY
RECENTLY HAVE I HAVE STARTED
SPEAKING PUBLICLY AGAIN ABOUT WHAT I
EXPERIENCED BECAUSE OF MR. MUSK'S SPEECH.
[MEHDI HASAN] WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING ON
THE SHOW TO SPEAK GIVEN THE THREATS. AND I HAVE TO ASK,
DO YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE
SECURITY?
I HAD DOCTOR FAUCI ON THE SHOW
THE OTHER WEEK AND IT IS DEEPLY
DEPRESSING HOW MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICAN PUBLIC LIFE NOW
HAVE TO HAVE SECURITY BECAUSE
PEOPLE ARE BEING INCITED
AGAINST THEM BY EITHER DONALD TRUMP OR ELON
MUSK, OR BOTH.
[YOEL ROTH] THE NORMALIZATION OF THIS TYPE OF
VIOLENT RHETORIC AND VIOLENT CONDUCT,
AGAINST PUBLIC FIGURES IS WHAT'S REALLY
STRIKING TO ME.
THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY WHO
THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE A COLLEGE
PROFESSOR, LIKE ME, AND SOMEBODY WHO
IS A DOCTOR LIKE DR. FAUCI, HAVE TO
THINK ABOUT
PERSONAL SAFETY AS A
CONSEQUENCE OF JUST DOING OUR JOBS,
IS A REALLY STRIKING NEW REALITY.
I WILL SAY, I THINK IN SOME WAYS, MR.
MUSK'S CAMPAIGN SLIGHTLY OVER ROTATED.
HE DEPLOYED EVERYTHING ALL AT
ONCE.
I HAD TO MOVE; I HAD TO SELL MY HOME. MY ADDRESS NOW IS NOT KNOWN.
AND SO I FEEL SAFER NOW AND BETTER
ABLE TO SPEAK IN PUBLIC AGAIN. BUT
THERE IS LOTS OF PEOPLE FOR
WHOM DISPLACING THEIR FAMILY
AND HAVING TO RELOCATE IS NOT SOMETHING
THAT IS A VIABLE
OPTION.
[MEHDI HASAN] SO YOEL,
WHY DO YOU THINK ELON MUSK
PUSHES HOMOPHOBIC CONSPIRACIES
AGAINST YOU, AGAINST PAUL PELOSI, PUSHES ANTI-SEMITIC
CONSPIRACIES AGAINST GEORGE SOROS, AGAINST THE ADL. IS IT BECAUSE
HE'S A HOMOPHOBE AND AN ANTI-
SEMITE OR IS HE JUST DOING IT FOR
CLICKS, FOR ATTENTION, BECAUSE HE LIKES TROLLING?
[YOEL ROTH] I THINK THERE'S THREE
EXPLANATIONS HERE THAT ARE IMPORTANT.
THE FIRST IS WE SHOULD STOP
PRETENDING THAT ELON MUSK'S
POLITICS ARE MERCURIAL.
THIS IS A NARRATIVE THAT KEEPS BEING ADVANCED
IN THE MEDIA THAT SOMEHOW WE
DON'T KNOW IF HE
IS A REPUBLICAN, IS HE A DEMOCRAT.
I THINK WE KNOW.
I THINK HE HAS MADE CLEAR WHAT
HIS VIEWPOINTS ARE.
BUT SECOND, I DO THINK VERY MUCH THINK THAT HE
VALUES THE CYCLE OF ATTENTION
THAT HE RECEIVES WHEN HE
ENGAGES IN THIS INFLAMMATORY
CONDUCT.
THE ENDORPHIN RUSH THAT COMES
WITH 150 MILLION PEOPLE TELLING
HIM THAT HE IS RIGHT AND DOING
HIS BIDDING.
BUT, I THINK THERE IS AN UNDERLYING
STRATEGY HERE THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND IT
GOES BEYOND JUST SEEKING
GRATIFICATION.
I THINK THIS IS A STRATEGY TO
SILENCE PEOPLE.
I BELIEVE MR. MUSK WAS QUITE
INTENTIONAL WHEN HE ATTACKED
ME AFTER I LEFT TWITTER.
I BELIEVE THAT WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO, WAS
ENSURE THAT I WOULDN'T SPEAK UP
ABOUT HIM OR ABOUT THE COMPANY IN THE
FUTURE.
AND THE WAY THAT HE TRIED TO SECURE
THAT WAS BY INTIMIDATING
ME INTO SILENCE. I DON'T THINK IT'S AN ACCIDENT.
[MEHIDI HASAN] HOW CAN THAT BE, YOEL? HE IS A FREE SPEECH
CHAMPION. HOW COULD HE WANT TO
SILENCE YOU? I CAN'T, I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE!
HE'S A FREE SPEECH ABSOLUTIST! WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?
I AM SHOCKED.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS, YOU WORKED
ALONGSIDE ELON MUSK FOR 14 DAYS
BETWEEN HIS TAKEOVER OF THE COMPANY AND YOUR
RESIGNATION. I GOTTA ASK, WHAT
WAS HE LIKE TO WORK FOR? TO ME,
FROM A DISTANCE, HE COMES
ACROSS AS A THIN-SKINNED
MANCHILD. FOR EXAMPLE, THE TECH NEWS ON A PLATFORM ACTUALLY
REPORTED THAT MUSK CALLED A MEETING TO YELL
AT STAFF BECAUSE HIS TWEETS WEREN'T
GETTING ENOUGH AMPLIFICATION.
BUT WHAT WERE YOUR PERSONAL
INTERACTIONS WITH HIM LIKE?
DID HE COME ACROSS AS SOMEONE
WHO KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING? AND
STABLE?
[YOEL ROTH] YOU KNOW, IT IS FUNNY BUT IN THE TWO
WEEKS THAT I WAS WORKING
CLOSELY WITH HIM, I ACTUALLY DID FIND
HIM TO BE A RELATIVELY RATIONAL
BUSINESS EXECUTIVE.
I FOUND THAT IF I PRESENTED HIM
WITH EVIDENCE AND FACTS AND
MADE RECOMMENDATIONS, THAT HE
TOOK THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS AND
LISTENED.
WHEN TWITTER FIRST BANNED KANYE
WEST FOR HIS ANTI-SEMITIC TWEETS, I MADE
THAT RECOMMENDATION TO MR. MUSK.
AND DESPITE BEING AN PROFESSED FREE
SPEECH ABSOLUTIST WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BAN ANYONE, HE AGREED.
HE AGREED IT WAS THE RIGHT
DECISION.
IN ANOTHER INSTANCE WHEN THERE
WAS A RISE IN RACIST CONTENT ON
TWITTER, I AGAIN PRESENTED THE FACTS
AND THE EVIDENCE TO MR. MUSK,
AND RECOMMENDED THAT TWITTER TAKE AGGRESSIVE
ACTION AGAINST IT, AND HE
AGREED AND ENCOURAGED ME AND MY TEAM
TO EVEN MOVE FASTER.
WHAT I LEARNED FROM THIS IS THAT MR.
MUSK'S DECISION-MAKING IS DEEPLY
SHAPED BY THE INFORMATION THAT
HE GETS.
WHEN YOU PUT GOOD INFORMATION
IN FRONT OF HIM, I THINK HE IS ABLE TO
PROCESS IT RATIONALLY AND MAKE
GOOD DECISIONS.
WHEN HE IS EXPOSED TO A TORRENT
OF GARBAGE ON TWITTER,
UNFORTUNATELY, HE STARTS TO MAKE WORSE
DECISIONS.
[MEHDI HASAN] HE IS DEEPLY CREDULOUS ONLINE.
THERE IS THIS CONVENTIONAL WISDOM ON
THE RIGHT, AND AMONG SOME LIBERALS TOO, THAT TWITTER IS
BIASED AGAINST CONSERVATIVE
VOICES, WHICH
COUNTLESS STUDIES SHOW IS NOT
THE CASE.
YOU SEEM TO SUGGEST IN YOUR LATEST TIMES OP-ED THAT YOU
THINK TWITTER ACTUALLY GAVE
CONSERVATIVES LIKE MARJORIE
TAYLOR GREENE AND THE ANTI-
LGBTQ ACCOUNT LIBS OF TIKTOK, SPECIAL TREATMENT,
MULTIPLE PASSES THAT OTHERS
DIDN'T GET.
[YOEL ROTH] INEVITABLY, CONTENT
MODERATION DECISIONS LIVE IN A
GRAY AREA.
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HIGH-
PROFILE INDIVIDUALS, LIKE MEMBERS OF
CONGRESS OR PRESIDENTS.
THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOME SPACE FOR DEBATE ABOUT WHAT THE RIGHT ENFORCEMENT ACTION IS. AND FACED WITH THAT AMBIGUITY, MY EXPERIENCE IS THAT TWITTER, AND OTHER PLATFORMS, SOMETIMES SHY AWAY FROM
ENFORCEMENT, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT
ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES, LIKE SOME
OF THE ONES THAT I FACED AFTER
TWITTER FIRST MODERATED THEN-PRESIDENT DONALD
TRUMP.
THESE INTIMIDATION CAMPAIGNS
THAT TARGET INDIVIDUAL
PLATFORM STAFFERS, CAN HAVE A
CHILLING EFFECT ON THE
DECISIONS THAT COMPANIES ULTIMATELY MAKE.
AND WE LARGELY SEE THESE CAMPAIGNS
COMING FROM THE RIGHT.
THIS ISN'T A TACTIC THAT IS UNIQUE TO THE AMERICAN
RIGHT, OR EVEN TO THE UNITED
STATES. BUT
IT'S ONE THAT HAS
RISEN IN PROMINENCE. AND THE TARGETING OF TECH EMPLOYEES
IS A PHENOMENON THAT I'M PARTICULARLY WORRIED
ABOUT GOING INTO THE 2024
ELECTIONS.
[MEHDI HASAN] SO LET'S TALK ABOUT CONTENT
MODERATION. YOU'RE QUOTED IN THE SO-CALLED "TWITTER FILES" REPORTING,
THE LEAKED EMAILS FROM YOUR
COMPANY, OF SAYING YOU WERE NOT
COMFORTABLE WITH SOME OF THE
REQUESTS YOU WERE GETTING FROM THE
FBI FOR INFORMATION ON FOREIGN
INFLUENCE AROUND THE TIME OF
THE 2020 ELECTION. SO
WHY DID YOU CARRY ON MEETING
WITH THE FBI, IN YOUR WORDS, ON
A WEEKLY BASIS?
EVEN IF WE AGREE THE FBI WAS
NOT CENSORING TWEETS, THEY WERE FLAGGING THEM FOR YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES FOR YOU TO RULE ON.
YOU DO SEEM TO HAVE A WAY-TOO-COMFORTABLE, AND TOO CLOSE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, DID YOU NOT?
[YOEL ROTH] I WOULDN'T AGREE THAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS CLOSE OR COMFORTABLE.
INTERFERENCE. I WOULD SAY THAT IT WAS NECESSARY. IN 2016, PLATFORMS FAILED TO RESPOND TO RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE ELECTION,
LARGELY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T
HAVE THE RELEVANT INFORMATION
THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED THEM IDENTIFY
AND ADDRESS THOSE THREATS IN REAL
TIME. THE SOLUTION TO THAT WAS
BETTER INFORMATION SHARING
BETWEEN PLATFORMS AND THE
GOVERNMENT, AND THE FBI QUICKLY
EMERGED AS THE PRIMARY CONDUIT
FOR THAT INFORMATION SHARING. NOW,
THERE WAS MUTUAL WARINESS IN
THAT RELATIONSHIP.
THERE WAS A RECOGNITION BY PLATFORMS THAT
THIS COULD BE A VEHICLE FOR
GOVERNMENT JOB OWNING, ATTEMPTING TO
INFLUENCE HOW PLATFORMS MAKE THEIR CHOICES, AND THAT ALSO, IT COULD BE INTRUSIVE ON THE
PRIVACY OF TWITTER'S USERS. BUT,
THERE WAS A RECOGNITION THAT OUR
RESPONSIBILITY TO ADDRESS
ELECTION SECURITY RISKS
COMPELLED US TO HAVE A CHANNEL
FOR RECEIVING INFORMATION FROM
GOVERNMENT. SO
WE HAD REGULAR MEETINGS, WE ENGAGED
REGULARLY. BUT WE DID SO WITH A RECOGNITION THAT WE HAD TO KEEP THAT
WITHIN A
SPECIFIC BOX OF EXCHANGING
INFORMATION ONLY ABOUT --
[MEHDI HASAN] YOUR CRITICS WOULD SAY IT GOT TOO FRIENDLY. IF
YOU READ THE EMAILS, THEY ARE VERY
FRIENDLY.
THIS IS THE GOVERNMENT. THIS IS THE FBI WITH A PRIVATE
COMPANY. AND YOU YOURSELF ARE QUOTED AS
SAYING YOU'RE NOT
COMFORTABLE WITH SOME OF THE THINGS
THEY ARE ASKING YOU TO DO.
IN HINDSIGHT, DO YOU REGRET ANY OF
THAT?
[YOEL ROTH] I DON'T.
I THINK THE INTERACTIONS THAT WE HAD
WITH THE FBI WERE SOMETIMES, WERE FRIENDLY. AN
FBI AGENT WISHED ME A HAPPY NEW
YEAR AT ONE POINT. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE SUBSTANCE OF EVEN
WHAT WAS DISCLOSED SELECTIVELY IN THE
TWITTER FILES, THERE IS NO
EXAMPLES OF THE FBI MAKING
COERCIVE DEMANDS OR OF
TWITTER ACQUIESCING TO THEM. IN FACT, WHAT YOU SEE IS THE OPPOSITE. YOU SEE THAT,
DESPITE THIS FRIENDLINESS, WE REGULARLY PUSHED BACK ON REQUESTS FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND THE GOVERNMENT BACKS OFF. AND SO I
THINK THAT WARINESS ACTUALLY
WORKED DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE HAD BUILT THIS EFFECTIVE
INFORMATION SHARING
RELATIONSHIP.
[MEHDI HASAN] WATCH THIS EXCHANGE THAT I HAD WITH TWITTER FILES REPORTER MATT TAIBBI ON THIS SHOW BACK
IN APRIL.
[MEHDI HASAN] YOU JUST SAID, "WE THINK IT'S THE CIA." I HAVEN'T SEEN
A SINGLE TWITTER FILE ...
[MATT TAIBBI] WE SHOWED REPORTS THAT CAME
THROUGH THE FOREIGN
INTERFERENCE TASK FORCE. WE
KNOW IT CAME THROUGH THE FBI. WE KNOW THAT'S THE DESTINATION BY WHICH IT CAME. BUT
THE ORIGIN OF THE DOCUMENT, WE
COULDN'T DETERMINE --
NOW, YOEL, WE KNOW FROM THE INTERCEPT'S
TWITTER FILES REPORTING, THAT TWITTER, ON YOUR WATCH,
WAS ALLOWING THE PENTAGON TO NOT JUST SET UP A BUNCH OF TWITTER ACCOUNTS, AND
ONLINE PERSONAS TO PUSH U.S.
MILITARY PROPAGANDA IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT
ALSO, TO CONCEAL THEIR AFFILIATION
WITH THOSE TWITTER ACCOUNTS.
SO I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO
RESPOND HERE. WERE YOU ALSO, AS
MATT TAIBBI CLAIMS, ALLOWING THE
CIA TO USE AND EXPLOIT TWITTER, DIRECTLY OR
INDIRECTLY?
[YOEL ROTH] NO.
LET ME BE VERY CLEAR.
THE DECISION THAT WAS MADE TO
TEMPORARILY ALLOW A NUMBER OF
ACCOUNTS OPERATED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TO
MISREPRESENT THEIR ORIGIN WAS ONE THAT AS
SOON AS I DISCOVERED IT, AND
TWITTER LEADERSHIP BECAME AWARE OF IT,
WE BANNED, AND THEN WE TOOK THE ADDITIONAL STEP OF
PUBLICLY DISCLOSING IT. WE KNOW
ABOUT THIS CAMPAIGN NOW BECAUSE
TWITTER VOLUNTARILY SHARED DATA ABOUT IT WITH
THE PUBLIC AND
EXPOSED WHAT THIS CAMPAIGN ACTUALLY WAS.
RESEARCHERS AT THE STANFORD INTERNET OBSERVATORY
HAVE PUBLISHED A STUDY LOOKING
IN GREAT DETAIL AT EXACTLY WHAT
THIS CAMPAIGN WAS. I THINK
TWITTER'S EXCHANGES WITH THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY SHOULD
BE CONCERNING.
THEY CONCERN ME.
THEY CONCERNED ME AS THEY WERE
HAPPENING. BUT
THERE'S ALWAYS TRADE-OFFS HERE. AND I THINK
THE RECOGNITION THAT ELECTION
SECURITY RISKS ARE A CLEAR AND
PRESENT DANGER TO AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY AND TO DEMOCRACIES AROUND
THE WORLD, REQUIRES PLATFORMS TO
ENGAGE IN SOME OF THESE
SLIGHTLY UNCOMFORTABLE PRACTICES
IN SERVICE OF BROADER SECURITY
GOALS. AND
THAT IS WHAT WE DID. BUT I BELIEVE
WE WERE ABLE TO DO SO WITHOUT
COMPROMISING ON THE FUNDAMENTAL
PRINCIPLES OF INTEGRITY,
CONSISTENCY AND THE ENFORCEMENT
OF OUR POLICIES AS THEY
WERE WRITTEN.
[MEHDI HASAN] LAST QUICK QUESTION TO YOU.
I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE
SAUDIS WITHIN TWITTER.
THEY ARE THE SECOND BIGGEST
INVESTORS IN THE SITE. THEY WERE ALSO
MAJOR PLAYERS IN THE PRE-
MUSK TWITTER, TOO.
AND LAST YEAR, A FORMER TWITTER EMPLOYEE WAS FOUND
GUILTY IN FEDERAL COURT OF USING THE SITE TO SPY FOR SAUDI ARABIA, AND SAUDI DISSIDENTS. HOW
CAN TWITTER, OR X, CLAIM TO BE A FREE
SPEECH SITE GIVEN THE SAUDIS'
INVOLVEMENT, AND GIVEN MUSK'S
WELL DOCUMENTED PATTERN OF ROLLING OVER
FOR FOREIGN AUTOCRATS AND AUTHORITARIANS?
[YOEL ROTH] IT IS A VERY REAL RISK.
I TESTIFIED AT THE TRIAL OF THAT
FORMER EMPLOYEE. AND
I AM VERY GLAD TO SEE THAT
CONVICTION. I THINK
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE SAUDI
GOVERNMENT PURSUED TWITTER EMPLOYEES TO GET THEM TO EXFILTRATE DATA, WAS
A VERY REAL RISK TO VULNERABLE
PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA ON
TWITTER. AND
IT UNDERMINED THE EFFECTIVENESS
OF THE PLATFORM, IT'S ROLE IN THE WORLD, AS
A CRITICAL CONDUIT FOR FREE
SPEECH BY VULNERABLE PEOPLE.
I WORRY THAT THE DEFENSES TWITTER BUILT UP
FOLLOWING THAT INCIDENT HAVE BEEN
ERODED UNDER MUSK.
I WORRY THAT THE COMPANY'S
INVESTMENT IN ADDRESSING STATE-BACKED
DISINFORMATION, INCLUDING FROM THE
SAUDI GOVERNMENT, IS NO LONGER
HAPPENING. AND
I WORRY THAT THE FINANCIAL
CHUMINESS BETWEEN THE COMPANY'S
EXECUTIVES AND THE SAUDI ROYAL
FAMILY WILL MAKE IT HARDER FOR
THE COMPANY TO CRACK DOWN ON
THESE EFFORTS IN THE FUTURE.
IT IS HARD TO KNOW. ESPECIALLY
NOW THAT TWITTER IS NOT A
PUBLIC COMPANY,
THERE IS LESS SCRUTINY, THERE'S LESS
AUDITABILITY, AND THERE'S
LESS VISIBILITY INTO
THE COMPANY'S CHOICES AND
ACTIONS.
I WORRY WHAT THAT WILL MEAN.
[MEHDI HASAN] YOU SAY IT IS HARD TO KNOW. ONE THING I ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT THE TWITTER FILES REPORTING, THE SELECTIVE LEAKING OF
EMAILS, AS YOU SAY. ARE THERE EMAILS KNOCKING AROUND WITHIN TWITTER, EITHER FROM PRE-MUSK DAYS, OR POST-MUSK DAYS, WITH SAUDI REQUESTS FOR TAKEDOWNS?
[YOEL ROTH] THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT AND NEARLY
EVERY GOVERNMENT AROUND THE
WORLD, WOULD REGULARLY CONTACT
TWITTER DEMANDING THE REMOVAL
OF CONTENT.
THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT, IN
PARTICULAR, LOVED TO REPORT THE
PRESENCE OF PORNOGRAPHY ON TWITTER
AND SAY THIS IS ILLEGAL IN
SAUDI ARABIA, HOW CAN YOU
PERMIT IT ON THE SERVICE? THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEN AND NOW
WAS THAT TWITTER REGULARLY PUSHED
BACK ON THOSE DEMANDS. TWITTER HAD A PRACTICE OF
NOT BLINDLY COMPLYING
WITH GOVERNMENT DEMANDS FOR CENSORSHIP, BUT INSTEAD RESISTING
THEM, SOMETIMES IN COURT.
AND CRITICALLY, DISCLOSING ITS RESISTANCE IN REGULAR
TRANSPARENCY REPORTING. THE TWITTER, OR I GUESS
X OF TODAY, DOES NONE OF THAT.
[MEHDI HASAN] YOEL ROTH, WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. PLEASE DO STAY SAFE.