Bombshell animal rights idea rocks Green Movement

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Bombshell animal rights idea rocks Green Movement

Postby admin » Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:03 am

A lawyer for Obama's Dog? Bombshell animal rights idea rocks Green Movement
by Ari Melber
MSNBC
Feb 13, 2023

In the debut segment of The Beat’s new “Open Mind” series, Ari interviews renowned philosopher and author of the new book, “Justice for Animals,” Martha Nussbaum, on her provocative argument that animals should have legal rights and access to the courts with human lawyers representing them. In this new series, MSNBC’s Ari Melber asks viewers to explore novel ideas with an open mind.



Transcript

0:00
tonight we turn to an extraordinary call
0:01
to expand rights which has some people
0:04
contemplating a new way of looking at
0:06
the world and some other people
0:08
protesting that this goes too far now
0:11
before we get into details I want to do
0:14
something with you it is worth recalling
0:17
that throughout our entire human history
0:19
at any given point the conventional
0:21
wisdom about rights or their expansion
0:25
has often later looked limited or
0:27
Antiquated or totally wrong the widely
0:31
held views from the 1800s and 1900s have
0:34
aged poorly from barring women and
0:37
minorities from voting to the
0:39
commonplace bigotry against people with
0:41
different types of abilities now widely
0:45
condemned today
0:48
Congress approved the 19th Amendment the
0:51
ladies appeared at the polls on Election
0:53
Day by the hundreds of thousands six
0:55
negro girls three negro boys entered
0:58
Central High School I'm not sure most of
1:01
us had yet absorbed the historic scope
1:03
of this moment they were ready to March
1:05
and they marked this March will go down
1:08
as one of the greatest if not the
1:12
greatest
1:13
demonstrations for freedom and human
1:15
dignity the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is
1:19
signed at the White House by President
1:20
Johnson the president's signing of the
1:23
disabled Americans act it bars job and
1:26
other discrimination against the 43
1:28
million Americans with Disabilities
1:31
that is what some major changes can look
1:33
like where a society goes from
1:35
completely borrowing women's votes in
1:38
one generation to taking it as a
1:40
consensus that women can vote in the
1:41
next
1:42
so it can look clear in hindsight
1:45
but
1:47
are there issues where what we are doing
1:50
right now me and you will one day seem
1:54
as obviously wrong as fighting women's
1:56
suffrage what if right now we're living
1:58
by some conventional wisdom that has
2:00
people in the future going
2:02
I can't believe that's how they used to
2:05
be how we are
2:08
and that brings us to tonight's news
2:09
about
2:10
animals
2:12
many people cherish animals from the
2:14
pets we love at home or in movies to
2:17
Americans celebrating dogs that have
2:18
been part of our first families a
2:20
bipartisan tradition that reflects the
2:23
special place we hold for at least some
2:25
animals and a lot of people strike their
2:27
own balance between eating meat on one
2:29
hand and then cherishing pets or living
2:32
animals now science politics and even
2:34
art
2:36
are pushing for a different
2:38
understanding for a better treatment of
2:39
animals take the hit Avatar series
2:42
which has those Blockbusters that push a
2:44
pretty environmentalist political
2:45
message the new sequel for Avatar
2:48
exploring how a more advanced species
2:49
can commune with traditional animals
2:51
like whales there's one scene that
2:54
depicts a grieving process for a
2:56
murdered whale recounting her
2:58
personality her generosity and the
3:01
operas She Wrote
3:03
now that's fiction
3:05
but it channels real claims and
3:07
political movements like animal rights
3:09
and veganism which build on legal
3:11
protections that exist already for
3:13
animals
3:15
and then there are arguments that the
3:17
law should go even beyond that to ban
3:20
animal cruelty which we already do and
3:22
go further and Grant some animals
3:24
something more something akin to rights
3:27
it's a somewhat novel argument that has
3:30
already
3:31
hit the courts
3:34
we're saying non-human animals are going
3:36
to be persons not people but persons and
3:39
they're going to be rights bearers in
3:41
law the fundamental distinction is
3:43
between being a thing and being a person
3:46
the lawyer arguing that case loss but
3:49
this effort continues in many countries
3:50
and it's not just say activists or
3:53
people with a personal deeper connection
3:55
to animals who are pushing the
3:57
conversation right now
3:59
renowned legal philosophers alive in
4:01
America Martha C Nussbaum the author of
4:03
pioneering works on law human rights
4:05
disabilities feminism she's taught at
4:07
Harvard and University of Chicago law
4:09
school and she has this new book Justice
4:12
for animals advocating
4:14
binding animal rights and recognizing
4:17
that humans have an ethical
4:18
responsibility to the other animals
4:24
now Professor Nussbaum is our expert
4:26
guest right now as we launch a new
4:28
series on the beat to explore these kind
4:30
of questions to step back a bit from
4:33
this current ERA from the conventional
4:35
wisdom from the hardened debates Often
4:39
waged by people in their own stubborn or
4:41
partisan corners
4:43
and let me be clear with you up front
4:45
our premise here tonight is not that
4:47
some new ideas definitely right
4:49
or even probably right
4:52
but rather our premise is that it's
4:55
worth hearing ideas with an open mind
4:57
that is our goal as the late great Mac
4:59
Miller put it all we want to do is free
5:02
your mind we don't see no lines we don't
5:05
color inside
5:07
and someone to help us do that as
5:09
mentioned is Professor Martha cinasvam
5:12
joining us for our open mind debut
5:15
thanks for being here
5:16
oh thank you so much Harry this has
5:18
gotten me so excited because I love the
5:21
idea of your program I mean I think that
5:23
is really what we we ought to be doing
5:25
at this point getting people to know the
5:28
kinds of lives animals are living what
5:30
they're capable of and then letting them
5:32
think through it and then make their own
5:34
decisions right and and you've been so
5:36
so influential at the Forefront as I say
5:39
as an expert as a writer and a
5:41
philosopher now you've come to this area
5:44
first in sort of plain English uh why do
5:48
you say that animals should have some
5:50
greater set of Rights what does that
5:52
mean
5:54
well it means legal protections of
5:56
course they're not going to go to court
5:57
themselves I wouldn't go to court myself
6:00
because I'm not a lawyer it just means
6:02
that somebody can go into court
6:04
represent them and argue on their behalf
6:07
and there would be laws on the books as
6:10
there are now that protect companion
6:12
animals there are lots of laws
6:13
protecting dogs and cats but a lot of
6:15
animals are just not protected so it's
6:17
really more a question of generalizing
6:20
what we're already doing people who live
6:22
with dogs and cats know what they're
6:25
capable of and how precious they are and
6:26
how complicated they are but then they
6:29
don't stop to think about all the other
6:31
animals but I think now it's the time
6:33
when people are changing because we know
6:35
so much more we know what whales are
6:37
like what the life of a dolphin is like
6:39
and we go can also see what we are doing
6:42
to them by putting plastic bottles in
6:45
the ocean we're choking the whales
6:47
whales die with plastic bottles in their
6:50
insides we know all the other things
6:53
that we're doing
6:54
programs for drilling under sea in in
6:58
and interrupt the migration of Wales so
7:01
there are a thousand things that we do
7:03
every day and now we're becoming aware
7:05
of that that impede the normal lives of
7:08
animals so what I'm arguing is that our
7:10
goal should be to give each kind of
7:12
animal a chance to lead its
7:15
characteristic form of life to be the
7:17
kind of animal it is and we already
7:19
grant that for dogs and cats right so I
7:22
think it's the question of taking that
7:23
to the next step for the right animals
7:25
and pets are something I think a lot of
7:27
people can relate to before we get more
7:29
into details um and your book has them
7:31
so we'll get to that what would you say
7:34
is the benefit to both animals and
7:36
humans if we go further down this road
7:40
well I think it's
7:42
benefit to the animals is
7:47
this thing is wild nature on the land
7:50
every space there is is dominated by
7:53
human beings so animals are losing their
7:55
habitats and in the Seas as I say males
7:58
are suffering from the things that
8:00
humans do in the skies migratory birds
8:03
are choking on air pollution and banging
8:05
into buildings that have bright lights
8:07
so we're dominating everywhere and so
8:10
the benefit to the animals is they can
8:12
be as they were co-creators of this
8:14
wonderful world we live in not just
8:16
victims of aggression but the benefits
8:19
to us I think are the benefits of you
8:21
know living in a world where we're
8:24
Companions of not just a dog or a cat
8:27
but Companions of many kinds of animals
8:30
of the elephants that right now are
8:31
being poached almost to Extinction I
8:35
love elephants in particular uh you know
8:37
so many animals that might become
8:39
totally extinct now we could be there
8:42
co-creators of a world in which we can
8:45
live together and I think that expands
8:48
our humanity and makes us have richer
8:51
human lives
8:53
and so you your philosophy in that Lens
8:56
comes through in the way you think and
8:58
write about this and you look at well
9:00
what is it about different animals that
9:03
give you a different way to understand
9:04
their capabilities some of what you
9:07
write for example is they feel pain
9:09
subjectively they invent emotions
9:11
compassion grief they can use tools to
9:14
solve problems they have complex forms
9:16
of social organization you you wrestle
9:18
with the questions of how to organize
9:20
this potential hierarchy here's for
9:23
example us looking at what we've learned
9:24
about Jim's ability to solve puzzles
9:27
take a look
9:29
numbers one to nine are randomly
9:31
scattered across a touch screen the
9:34
chimp looks at them for as long as is
9:36
needed to memorize the layout
9:46
when are you moose at the same test he
9:48
correctly remembered the numbers almost
9:50
90 percent of the time
9:53
there's research that some of that is
9:55
done better than humans doing the same
9:58
examples
10:00
um how should we understand what you
10:02
explore there the multiple hierarchies
10:04
and what does it mean that a chimp might
10:07
in your estimation Merit some different
10:09
level of treatment than a mollusk
10:13
well first of all I think mollusks are
10:16
not sentient so they don't feel pain so
10:18
that's a big line that I draw if we find
10:21
out that they do then I would change my
10:23
mind is uh feelings are being hurt right
10:26
now watching this segment who knows well
10:29
I mean the point
10:37
the point that fish are sentient but
10:39
mollusks not so much so I think every
10:41
sentient animal then I don't believe in
10:43
a hierarchy I think each animal has
10:46
evolved to live in its own Niche and
10:48
it's survived because it has just those
10:50
abilities that are suited for the niche
10:52
it's in I don't think that I would be
10:55
better off if I could sense magnetic
10:57
fields but if a bird couldn't do that it
11:00
would be dead so you know birds have
11:02
senses that humans lack dolphins are
11:04
able to sense what's inside an object
11:07
that they approach by what's called
11:09
echolocation so for example a dolphin
11:12
realized that her trainer was pregnant
11:14
before the Dolph the trainer herself
11:16
realized that and she signaled through
11:18
there there's something inside you and
11:20
you know I think humans don't need that
11:23
ability so much but dolphins really do
11:25
because they live in dangerous open
11:27
Waters so in short each creature is
11:30
different it's like a big horizontal
11:33
variety not a hierarchy and each
11:36
creature has the abilities that it needs
11:37
to live the life that it needs so I I'm
11:40
not in favor of this idea of comparing
11:42
and testing that just Compares animals
11:45
to humans we should understand them for
11:47
who and what they are and I mean whales
11:50
are enormously fascinating complicated
11:53
they learn their Repertory of behaviors
11:56
through social learning not through just
11:59
genetic activation but we have to study
12:02
them and see what they do and learn the
12:05
songs that they sing not just compare
12:07
them to Human music whales make whale
12:10
music birds make bird music you know and
12:13
what's wonderful about our world is that
12:15
we have this huge variety of creatures
12:17
and the aim should be to think of value
12:21
as internal to each form of life so
12:24
let's turn to what this could mean in
12:27
the legal context
12:29
um lawyers talk about legal fictions
12:32
political analysts talk about social
12:34
constructions there are certain things
12:37
that are just sort of made up in law but
12:39
then play important roles none other
12:41
than Mitt Romney sort of captured this
12:44
and referring to the fact that as a
12:46
legal matter there's a ways that
12:48
non-human entities like corporations are
12:51
treated as persons I'm simplifying but
12:54
here's what he said
12:56
corporations are people my friend we can
12:59
raise taxes that of course they are
13:01
everything corporations earned
13:02
ultimately goes to people
13:05
now people persons the point uh in the
13:08
animal rights movement has been to look
13:09
at the idea of attaching rights I
13:12
mentioned that case earlier we'll play a
13:13
little bit about that
13:17
a person is not synonymous with a human
13:19
being a person means it's someone that
13:22
the civil law now says counts Tommy in
13:25
this circumstance is indeed a person who
13:27
is entitled you assert as a person we
13:29
haven't decided that yes the better way
13:31
to view Tommy would would be uh similar
13:35
to a
13:36
human child who has who has rights you
13:39
can't put a little child in a cage but
13:41
doesn't have correlative
13:42
responsibilities
13:45
no I did Avatar earlier that's real what
13:48
I'm showing viewers uh that particular
13:50
case lost but walk us through in what
13:52
you're exploring and advocating is that
13:54
what most animals should be treated
13:56
above a certain line as legal persons
13:59
and then they would have their own
14:01
rights their own lawyers who would be
14:03
human walk us through it as we keep an
14:05
open mind well I do not like the word
14:07
person because the way it's used by this
14:09
lawyer Steve wise who is a very
14:12
courageous lawyer and I admire him but
14:14
he means we gauge the level of
14:17
similarity of some animal to us and
14:19
person means enough like us that we can
14:22
treat it well but I as I said I don't
14:24
think that kind of vertical lining up
14:26
makes much sense I did write an amicus
14:29
brief for one of his cases but I made
14:31
clear that my view was a different view
14:33
I think first of all we need good laws
14:36
on the books and we often have a lot of
14:38
good laws and they're not enforced so
14:40
the first thing we need is for animals
14:43
to have what's known in the law is
14:45
standing to go to court as the
14:47
plaintiffs of an action right now there
14:49
are four countries in the world that
14:50
give animals legal standing India
14:53
Ecuador Argentina and Colombia and what
14:56
that means is that like children with
14:58
severe cognitive disabilities they can
15:01
have a guardian who would represent
15:03
their interests and then hire a lawyer
15:05
to go into court so right now there were
15:07
a group of hippos brought to Colombia by
15:09
Pablo Escobar who were about to be
15:11
slaughtered wholesale because the
15:13
parliament was just impatient with how
15:15
many had they were reproducing like mad
15:17
and so a Humane organization became the
15:21
guardian of this group of hippos and now
15:23
there's a case that's moving forward
15:25
called hippopotamuses of the something
15:27
something River Valley against Colombia
15:30
and so this is the sort of thing that
15:32
seems to me quite easy to do if we
15:35
there's no constitutional barrier to
15:37
giving animals standing there have been
15:39
lawyers writing about this for a long
15:40
time that would be much easier than
15:42
relying on getting them getting standing
15:45
under some other statute so let me add
15:47
let me press you on that uh Professor
15:50
even though again with the open mind uh
15:53
what do you say to the the concern or
15:56
counter argument that
15:58
for many if not most animals the actual
16:03
decisions the actual advocacy would
16:06
still be taking place at the human level
16:08
making the decisions for the animal
16:10
because and I see the analogy to say
16:13
someone with a developmental hurdle but
16:16
that the animals wouldn't be able to
16:17
meaningfully tell the lawyer what they
16:20
wanted
16:22
well the lawyer would have to consult
16:25
with people who know the animals very
16:26
well and who live with them and you know
16:29
the way that if you had were living with
16:32
a dog you would get to know that animal
16:34
really really well and you would know
16:36
what's in that animal's interests and
16:38
usually there are plenty of laws on the
16:40
books already saying the dogs have to be
16:42
treated in such and such a way and if
16:45
those laws were not enforced right now
16:48
there's no one who can try to sue to get
16:51
enforcement of those laws and so that's
16:53
the problem you know that even if you
16:55
pass good laws they're they're not
16:57
enforced so in this case the Humane
17:00
Society would be able to inform the they
17:04
become the guardian of that animal and
17:06
then they would be capable of hiring a
17:09
lawyer and representing to the lawyer
17:11
what the interests of that animal are
17:13
and of course it's what everybody does I
17:16
mean no one goes to court themselves
17:17
except in a very rare circumstance by
17:20
myself teaching the law school that I
17:22
don't have law degree I would never go
17:24
to court myself so it's really just
17:27
extending the interests of animals and
17:29
bringing them into the legal arena in a
17:32
way that allows good laws to be enforced
17:34
there was a case I write about in the
17:36
book where the Navy sonar program was
17:38
disrupting the reproduction and the
17:41
migration of whales now there there
17:43
happened to be a good law on the books
17:45
The Marine Mammal protection act and in
17:48
a devious way the ninth Circuit Court of
17:51
Appeals allowed without giving whales
17:54
standing they allowed the suit brought
17:57
by the national resources defense
18:00
Council to proceed in the name of the
18:02
whales and they actually invalidated the
18:05
U.S Navy sonar program but this was
18:07
because there were judges who read the
18:09
statute rather broadly with an open mind
18:11
as you rightly urge and the so the
18:16
whales went out and I think let me jump
18:18
in Professor you know I thought your
18:20
treatment in that case was fascinating
18:21
and it speaks to to the limitations of
18:24
our court-based system because the
18:27
corporations who also are not persons or
18:29
whatever you want to call it and many
18:31
other powerful entities wealthy entities
18:33
that are extracting what they take as
18:34
value out of the Earth or the animal
18:36
kingdom to enrich themselves they have a
18:39
lot of benefits
18:40
access lobbyist lawyers power and so the
18:43
notion that you balance it there the way
18:46
that case did the ninth circuit seemed
18:47
to read it very broadly and as you know
18:49
many criticize the night circuit for
18:51
being sort of the most open or
18:52
Progressive type of court but
18:55
they read it broadly for that purpose
18:56
but also at the end of the day I would
18:59
still say it is also humans and
19:03
specifically human environmentalists who
19:05
had an agenda there many may agree with
19:07
that agenda and it may have overlap with
19:08
the whale's agenda but that would be
19:10
distinct from say
19:12
what I would imagine most animals
19:14
interest would be which is to never be
19:16
killed by humans which I don't think you
19:17
could really litigate
19:20
well you could that's what the hippo
19:22
case is litigate because the parliament
19:25
voted to kill them all and they're
19:27
litigating against that mass killing no
19:29
you could have a law about anything but
19:31
you have to first of all have a statute
19:32
on the books right and in the whale case
19:35
there was the Marine Mammal protection
19:36
act which really does give capacious
19:39
prohibitions against
19:42
what they called an adverse impact on
19:45
the lives of whales so it was the judges
19:47
who read that term adverse impact in a
19:50
very intelligent way because they knew a
19:52
lot about whales and they knew that the
19:54
sound that makes them migrate with
19:56
reduced energy reserves have a lot of
19:59
stress
20:00
stop reproducing that that's an adverse
20:03
impact and so that was what was new
20:04
about that was their interpretation of
20:06
that phrase but the phrase had to be in
20:08
the law first so we do need of course
20:11
good good statutes and that's why it's
20:13
very hard many think for whales outside
20:15
Coastal Waters and that's another topic
20:18
so international law let me play some of
20:21
the uh criticism of this set of views
20:25
um which relates to both sort of the
20:28
dismissive almost humorous aspect which
20:31
you're familiar with but then also kind
20:33
of taking this seriously if you take it
20:35
seriously there are shall we say humans
20:38
who look at this as an effort to
20:40
undermine what we might call
20:44
human Primacy Supremacy the apex
20:46
predator status which sort of takes
20:48
seriously some of what you're saying
20:49
albeit disagreeing with it take a look
20:53
you were taking mankind off of the top
20:57
of the organizational chart animals are
21:00
abused but it remains a big leap to say
21:02
that the only way to remedy this is to
21:05
give them access to courts I don't think
21:06
that animals who lack the capacity to
21:08
reason and who lack the capacity to make
21:10
moral judgments really are able to
21:12
participate in the rights structure of
21:16
our society that my dog can sue to get
21:19
on my couch are not human beings and
21:22
putting them on the same legal standing
21:24
as a human being that's uh that's
21:25
insanity
21:27
uh your response Colbert there in a
21:29
character from his previous show but
21:31
your thoughts
21:38
those animals we live with we know about
21:40
them and we care about them and if we
21:43
then expand our minds and our
21:45
understanding and our concern to other
21:48
species I think we will want to pass
21:51
other laws we actually do have lots of
21:53
laws protecting migratory Birds now and
21:56
we have laws as I say The Marine Mammal
21:58
protection act so it's more that our
22:01
laws are very uneven and they're under
22:02
enforced no one is saying that we
22:05
shouldn't have laws protecting animals
22:06
we say I'm saying simply that the laws
22:09
should be better they should be more
22:10
even across the board animals we eat are
22:13
not protected very much like the
22:15
migratory birds are protected but the
22:17
birds we eat are not protected that
22:19
doesn't make sense to me I think the
22:21
birds birds are birds and they want to
22:23
live their birdie lives and so we should
22:25
protect them all and you know as we
22:28
learn more we'll want to do that but
22:30
then there has to be an enforcement
22:32
mechanism and that means somebody has to
22:34
be able to go to court on behalf of that
22:36
animal right now to have standing you go
22:39
to court on behalf of even a pet dog
22:41
whom you love you have to say I had an
22:45
aesthetic injury when I saw that dog
22:47
being beaten and this is crazy it's not
22:50
aesthetic it's about suffering it's
22:52
about morals right and you're saying
22:54
you're saying that the the current
22:56
precedent has to position the uh the
22:59
hook for that claim in the human only
23:01
when we all know and there are of course
23:04
laws against animal cruelty for good
23:06
reason we all know that part of what
23:07
moves us what I would call not the legal
23:10
fiction but the real reason is people
23:11
caring about a very powerful entity the
23:15
human or a corporation wantonly abusing
23:18
uh the the the animal who has feelings
23:21
and no power and and on that I want to
23:23
show some of the polling I gave you some
23:24
of the pushback but a lot of people
23:26
think that those laws make sense we have
23:28
some of the polling here just about
23:29
animal cruelty laws and by plurality
23:33
more people think they should be more
23:35
strict and very few people think they
23:38
quote unquote go too far I'm curious
23:41
your reaction to that as well as
23:42
explaining what you write about as a
23:44
proposal quote on an animal Constitution
23:47
all nations of the world should
23:48
basically have an illegally enforceable
23:51
Constitution for animals
23:56
well that's a very distant goal and what
23:59
I say is that right now my Approach is
24:01
supplies a virtual Constitution which is
24:04
like a set of goal posts that we might
24:06
aim at in our different ways
24:08
unfortunately in the international
24:09
sphere we haven't been able to get
24:11
together to do anything much for example
24:14
the international whaling Commission
24:16
it exists really only to make sure
24:18
whales don't go extinct so humans can go
24:20
on harpooning them and that's why it was
24:22
founded and now people are caring much
24:25
more about the whales but as they get
24:28
tougher in protecting the whales Nations
24:30
Rebel so Japan last year just up and
24:33
quit the international whaling
24:34
commission so that's the problem with
24:36
international law that you really have
24:38
no overarching endorsement nothing so
24:40
the way to enforce it I think is to
24:42
raise the consciousness of humanity and
24:45
get people to say this is intolerable
24:47
that we should be killing these
24:48
magnificent beings for nothing we don't
24:51
use whale oil anymore we don't eat whale
24:54
meat and so it's just a sport and it's
24:56
really just yeah worthy of us so as we
24:59
as we conclude Professor I want to bring
25:02
back the question we opened with
25:04
how
25:06
sure are you
25:07
that you are right about this always a
25:11
difficult question but we looked at the
25:14
history we explore this open uh I don't
25:17
know if you're right or not I want
25:19
everyone to be able to hear a different
25:20
set of ideas that I think are not quite
25:22
a hundred percent mainstream in the law
25:23
today how sure are you that you're right
25:26
do you think
25:27
you know I always change my mind so I'm
25:30
open to criticism and I talk about other
25:32
philosophical theories that I respect
25:34
and I don't agree with so you know it
25:37
may turn out that Peter Singer will end
25:39
up being right about some things my
25:41
criticism it might not be right but I I
25:45
feel that the on the idea that we're
25:47
failing the animals of the world and
25:49
we're not taking their plight seriously
25:52
and we're inflicting terrible
25:54
unnecessary Horrors on animals that I
25:57
feel absolutely certain
26:00
I really appreciate you joining us uh we
26:03
were very happy you were willing because
26:04
we thought both your work uh your
26:07
approach and this particular set of
26:09
ideas was a perfect way to launch the
26:10
open mind series thank you professor
26:13
nusma
26:14
this is
26:16
[Music]
26:30
foreign
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