Anti-Anti-Nazi Barbarian Hordes are Knocking Down the Gates

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“Ideological Deportation”: AAUP v. Rubio Trial Challenges Trump Crackdown on Pro-Palestine Students
by Amy Goodman
DemocracyNow
July 09, 2025
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/9/aaup#transcript

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69784731/american-association-of-university-professors-v-rubio/
American Association of University Professors v. Rubio (1:25-cv-10685)
District Court, D. Massachusetts
Assigned To: William G. Young

The first trial in a case challenging the Trump administration’s policy of detaining and deporting international students and professors who participate in pro-Palestinian activism is underway in Boston. The American Association of University Professors and the Middle East Studies Association brought the lawsuit. Government lawyers tried to get it dismissed, but U.S. District Judge William Young, an 84-year-old Ronald Reagan nominee, ordered a trial, saying it was the “best way to get at truth.”

“Students and faculty all over the country are quite literally terrified about the possibility that their advocacy and expression will lead to detention,” says Jameel Jaffer, director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University and one of the lawyers challenging the Trump administration. “They are terrified that ICE agents will show up at their door any day and take them away.”

Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

We look now at the first case to go to trial that challenges the Trump administration’s policy of arresting, detaining and deporting international students and professors who participate in pro-Palestinian activism. The trial began this week, after the case was filed in March by the American Association of University Professors, the AAUP, including its chapters at Harvard, New York University and Rutgers, and the Middle East Studies Association, MESA. The Trump administration tried to get the case dismissed, but those efforts were rejected by U.S. District Judge William Young, an 84-year-old Ronald Reagan appointee, who ordered a trial, saying it was the, quote, “best way to get at the truth.”

In a minute, we’ll get an update on the first two days of the trial, where the first of some 20 witnesses testified. But first we go to Zachary Samalin, associate professor of English at NYU, vice president of the NYU AAUP chapter, speaking at a rally Monday outside the Boston courthouse.

ZACHARY SAMALIN: We joined the lawsuit because we refuse to let Trump, Rubio or anybody else use citizenship to divide and conquer us. And above all, we joined to fight back against the criminalization of all protests, but especially of protest against the destruction and ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

AMY GOODMAN: Another speaker at Monday’s rally was Caroline Light, a senior lecturer in gender and sexuality studies at Harvard University, a member of Harvard’s AAUP, another one of the plaintiffs in the case.

CAROLINE LIGHT: This lawsuit is deeply personal to me and to my mom. We are descended from people who fled pogroms in the Jewish Pale of Settlement to come to the United States seeking refuge, and especially so that they could practice their freedom of religion, that the old country denied us. Right?

A key tenet of Judaism that I was raised with is something called tikkun olam. It literally means repairing the world. It is the responsibility of every Jewish person to do their best to try to denounce oppression wherever we see it, to speak out against unfairness and harm and violence against others.

Last Hanukkah, my eldest child gifted me this keffiyeh that I’m wearing today. And it’s a little warm, honestly, but I wear it in solidarity with my brave friends and colleagues and students who have spoken out against the relentless violence in Gaza. It feels like such a small thing to do. And yet, in the context of this chilling of freedom of expression and criminalization of pro-Palestinian solidarity, this mere act of wearing a keffiyeh is often characterized as subversion and as antisemitism, just wearing it.

So, this administration claims that ideological deportations are necessary, are part of their effort to fight antisemitism and to keep Jewish people from harm. Well, I’ll tell you what harms Jewish people. And I can speak as a historian on this topic. It’s the relentless assault on freedom of expression. It’s the language of us versus them. And it’s the criminalization of our valued community members, our colleagues and our students.

Make no mistake: We all suffer when some of us are silenced. In a university setting especially, it makes honest inquiry absolutely impossible. We can’t do our jobs as educators, as researchers, when these circumstances prevail. And so, today, we are fighting back. And as I said, this is personal for me and for my mom. And to the spurious claim that ideological deportation protects Jewish people, I’ll say it today, and I’ll say it until I have no voice left: Not in my name.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s Caroline Light, senior lecturer in gender and sexuality studies at Harvard University, a member of Harvard AAUP, one of the plaintiffs in this case, the American Association of University Professors v. Rubio.

For more, we’re joined in Boston, before day three of the trial, by Jameel Jaffer, director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University, part of the team of lawyers representing professors in their lawsuit against the Trump administration’s repression of students and faculty involved in pro-Palestine activism. He was previously the ACLU’s deputy legal director.

Jameel Jaffer, welcome back to Democracy Now! Explain why this case went to trial. We see so many injunctions issued by judges across the country, but this one is being heard by a federal judge, not before a jury, but before the judge.

JAMEEL JAFFER: Right, yeah. Well, we moved for preliminary relief in the case. So we, you know, filed a motion very soon after we filed the complaint, asking the court to grant immediate relief. And the court said that it wouldn’t grant immediate relief, but it would give us a trial on an expedited schedule. We are before a judge who has a practice of collapsing requests for preliminary relief with trials on the merit, so this is not entirely unprecedented or surprising. And it does give us an opportunity to create a complete factual record, and we are very grateful for that. And, you know, as you noted, the trial started yesterday — or, Monday. Today is day three. We expect it to go through the end of next
week.

AMY GOODMAN: So, why did the AAUP sue Rubio, Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, the case known —

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — as AAUP v. Rubio?

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah, so, I know you’ve talked about the student cases many, many times. You know, there are a dozen students, at least, who have been arrested, detained and threatened with deportation on the basis of their pro-Palestinian advocacy. There are hundreds of others whose visas have been revoked under the same — under the same policy. Some of those students have filed suit. Some of them were held in detention, and judges have now released them from detention. Those cases are ongoing, because the Trump administration continues to assert the authority to deport people on the basis of their pro-Palestinian expression and association.

But our view and, more importantly, the American Association of University Professors’ view and the Middle East Studies Association’s view, was that these arrests and detentions and threatened deportations are causing harm not only to, most obviously, the students who are being detained and threatened with deportation, but to the larger academic community, as well, because students and faculty all over the country are quite literally terrified about the possibility that their advocacy and expression will lead to detention. They are terrified that ICE agents will show up at their door any day and take them away because they wrote an op-ed critical of Israel or because they attended a public protest. And the result is that there is this climate of fear and repression on college campuses across the country. And this case is an effort to get at that larger climate of fear and repression caused by this ideological deportation policy. I think it’s, you know, complementary to the cases that have been filed by the students themselves.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about some of the witnesses, like the Brown anthropologist Nadje Al-Ali and Megan Hyska, who is a Northwestern University philosophy professor, how they’ve changed what they do? They’re no longer writing the pieces they’re supposed to be publishing, because of the climate in this country today —

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — and the direct physical threats.

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah, I mean, this is — this is a more general pattern, but we have had three witnesses testify over the last two days. You mentioned two of them: Nadje Al-Ali at Brown University, Megan Hyska at Northwestern University. And yesterday we had Bernhard Nickel, who is — was, until very recently, the chair of the Philosophy Department at Harvard University. The three of them testified to the chill that has taken hold at university campuses across the country. And they describe their own decisions to forego certain kinds of expression or scholarship or public presentation because of the fear of arrest and detention and deportation. All three of them are foreign citizens. That has been the bulk of the testimony presented to the court over the last two days.

Today, for the first time, we will hear from a government official. We’re going to hear from Peter Hatch, who is a senior official in the Department of Homeland Security, who was intimately involved in the decisions to identify students to be targeted under this — under this policy.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the lawsuit being filed jointly with the Middle East Studies Association, programs of regional areas that are coming under attack by the Trump administration — in late March, Columbia announcing it will place its Middle Eastern, South Asian and African Studies Department under review to secure some $400 million in federal funding that had been frozen? It’s your university, Jameel, where you run the Knight Institute.

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the chill that we’ve described in the case, I think, is felt across the country, across universities, across departments. Now, that said, I think it falls most heavily on professors and students at universities that have already been targeted in other ways by the Trump administration. Columbia is one of those. Harvard is another. You know, and even if you look at the students who have been arrested and detained under this policy, a number of them come from Columbia University — Mohsen Mahdawi, Yunseo Chung, Mahmoud Khalil. These are all Columbia students. And I think that it’s fair to say that students at those universities are especially terrified about the possibility that ICE will target them.

So, you know, the goal of this lawsuit is to get broad relief, not limited to any particular student, but rather relief with respect to the policy itself. And the policy, as we describe it, is the arrest and detention and deportation of students based on their pro-Palestinian advocacy and expression. And we point to the statements that senior government officials, including President Trump and Secretary Rubio, have made in press conferences, on social media, in threatening students and faculty with deportation for their First Amendment-protected activity. We point to cables that have been issued by the State Department implementing the president’s orders to target pro-Palestinian students. And we point also to the testimony of government witnesses. So far, we have depositions, but starting today, we’ll have testimony, as well, from government officials who were intimately involved in the decision to target particular students.

AMY GOODMAN: And we’ll continue to follow this case as it goes on for two weeks. But I also wanted to ask you, Jameel Jaffer, about the Knight First Amendment Institute, your organization, appearing to have won your appeal to have a lawsuit you filed on behalf of the Central American news outlet El Faro against the notorious spyware company NSO Group remanded to the court for reconsideration after it was thrown out for jurisdictional reasons. Can you explain? We interviewed one of the El Faro reporters, the whole group of them forced to leave El Salvador, afraid for their lives.

JAMEEL JAFFER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have to say that these reporters are so inspiring, these reporters who work with El Faro, a Salvadoran news organization that has been sort of crucial in reporting on democratic movements and the threat of authoritarianism, or the actuality of authoritarianism, in Central America. And, you know, they were targeted a couple years ago with spyware, probably or almost certainly operated by the Salvadoran government, but provided by NSO Group, the notorious spyware manufacturer. And we filed suit on their behalf in California. The case was dismissed by the district court on the grounds that the case didn’t belong in California. The plaintiffs were in El Salvador; the defendant was in Israel. But we argued that because the attacks themselves had relied on the subversion of Apple’s infrastructure in California, the case belonged in California. And we went to the appeals court to challenge the district court’s dismissal of the case. My colleague, Carrie DeCell, argued it before the appeals court a few months ago. And yesterday, as you know, the appeals court vacated the district court’s dismissal, reinstated the case, which is great news. It means that we will now be, we hope, able to litigate the merits in the district court in California.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you, Jameel Jaffer, for being with us, joining us from right near the Boston courthouse where the AAUP v. Rubio is being heard before a federal judge, director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. And for those who want to go to our website at democracynow.org, you can see our interview with the El Faro journalist Roman Gressier.

Next up, to Philadelphia, where the largest sanitation strike in a generation has just ended in the last few hours. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: Zeshan B, performing his rendition of “Ain’t No Love in the Heart of the City” in our Democracy Now! studio.

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"This Is The Final Straw": Elon Musk Has Logged On, Seen The Epstein Memo, And Entered Full Chaos Mode
by Alana Valko
buzzfeed
Mon, July 7, 2025 at 3:24 PM MDT
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanavalko/elo ... memo-memes

Elon Musk is back online (though, let's be real, he doesn't really ever log off), stirring the pot with Donald Trump.


Kevin Dietsch / Getty Images

If you recall, a month ago, amidst a feud and falling out with Donald Trump, Musk took to his platform X, formerly Twitter, to drop a bomb, accusing Trump in a now-deleted tweet of being "in the Epstein files," and saying that was "the real reason they have not been made public." He later deleted the tweet, saying he "went too far."

Elon Musk @elonmusk
Time to drop the really big bomb:
@realDonaldTrump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public.
Have a nice day, DJT!
2:10 PM Jun 5, 2025

Well, now, in a report first shared by Axios, the US Department of Justice and the FBI have released a review concluding that there is no secret "client list" of individuals with whom Jeffrey Epstein conspired with or blackmailed to exploit young women. The review also reaffirmed that Epstein died by suicide. Both findings contradict widely circulated claims and conspiracy theories promoted by some Trump associates.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/media/1407001/dl?inline
U.S. Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation
__________________________________________________________________________
As part of our commitment to transparency, the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted an exhaustive review of investigative holdings relating to Jeffrey Epstein. To ensure that the review was thorough, the FBI conducted digital searches of its databases, hard drives, and network drives as well as physical searches of squad areas, locked cabinets, desks, closets, and other areas where responsive material may have been stored. These searches uncovered a significant amount of material, including more than 300 gigabytes of data and physical evidence.

The files relating to Epstein include a large volume of images of Epstein, images and videos of victims who are either minors or appear to be minors, and over ten thousand downloaded videos and images of illegal child sex abuse material and other pornography. Teams of agents, analysts, attorneys, and privacy and civil liberties experts combed through the digital and documentary evidence with the aim of providing as much information as possible to the public while simultaneously protecting victims. Much of the material is subject to court-ordered sealing. Only a fraction of this material would have been aired publicly had Epstein gone to trial, as the seal served only to protect victims and did not expose any additional third-parties to allegations of illegal wrongdoing. Through this review, we found no basis to revisit the disclosure of those materials and will not permit the release of child pornography.

This systematic review revealed no incriminating “client list.” There was also no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions. We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties.

Consistent with prior disclosures, this review confirmed that Epstein harmed over one thousand victims. Each suffered unique trauma. Sensitive information relating to these victims is intertwined throughout the materials. This includes specific details such as victim names and likenesses, physical descriptions, places of birth, associates, and employment history.

One of our highest priorities is combatting child exploitation and bringing justice to victims. Perpetuating unfounded theories about Epstein serves neither of those ends.

To that end, while we have labored to provide the public with maximum information regarding Epstein and ensured examination of any evidence in the government’s possession, it is the determination of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation that no further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted.

After a thorough investigation, FBI investigators concluded that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York City on August 10, 2019. This conclusion is consistent with previous findings, including the August 19, 2019 autopsy findings of the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, the November 2019 position of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York in connection with the investigation of federal correctional officers responsible for guarding Epstein, and the June 2023 conclusions of DOJ’s Office of the Inspector General.

The conclusion that Epstein died by suicide is further supported by video footage from the common area of the Special Housing Unit (SHU) where Epstein was housed at the time of his death. As DOJ’s Inspector General explained in 2023, anyone entering or attempting to enter the tier where Epstein’s cell was located from the SHU common area would have been captured by this footage. The FBI’s independent review of this footage confirmed that from the time Epstein was locked in his cell at around 10:40 pm on August 9, 2019, until around 6:30 am the next morning, nobody entered any of the tiers in the SHU.

During this review, the FBI enhanced the relevant footage by increasing its contrast, balancing the color, and improving its sharpness for greater clarity and viewability. The full raw and enhanced videos are available at the following links: https://www.justice.gov/video-file1;
https://www.justice.gov/video-file2.

US Department of Justice / FBI / Axios / Via axios.com

In light of the news, Elon Musk re-ignited the public feud to share his thoughts. In a tweet sharing the report, he replied, "So … umm … then what is Ghislaine Maxwell in prison for? Stuff like this does not improve people’s faith in government."

Disclose.tv@disclosetv
JUST IN - U.S. DOJ and FBi joint Epstein memo: "There was no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions."

Elon Musk @elonmusk
So ... umm ... then what is Ghislaine Maxwell in prison for?
Stuff like this does not improve people's faith in government.
11:56 PM Jul 6, 2025

Then, he posted this meme:

ElonMusk@elonmusk
WE WILL RELEASE THE EPSTEIN LIST
WE JUST NEED MORE TIME
THE EPSTEIN LIST IS ON MY DESK
THERE IS NO EPSTEIN LIST
12:12 AM Jul 7, 2025

The meme seems to reference a claim made by US Attorney General Pam Bondi in February. In a Fox News interview, she said the list was "sitting on her desk," and that she was reviewing it at Trump's direction, alongside other files like those related to JFK and MLK. That quote is now making the rounds again as it contradicts the DOJ's current stance.

MeidasTouch@MeidasTouch
Pam Bondi in February: The Epstein client list is sitting on my desk right now to review.
Pam Bondi today: There is no Epstein client list and no "further disclosure" of Epstein-related material "would be appropriate or warranted."
7:46 PM · Jul 6, 2025

Musk didn't stop there, continuing his rant. "This is the final straw," he wrote.

Autism Capital@AutismCapital
Replying to @elonmusk
What happened to "the client list is on my desk?"
What happened to "the Epstein files part 2?"
What happened to those magical binders.
What a farce.

Elon Musk@elonmusk

This is the final straw
12:117 AM Jul 7, 2025

In another tweet-meme, he posted a "Jeffrey Epstein Pedophile Arrest Counter" set to zero with the caption, "What's the time? Oh look, it's no-one-has-been-arrested-o'clock again …"

Elon Musk@elonmusk
What's the time? Oh look, it's non-one-has-been-arrested-o'clock again ...
1:02 AM Jul 7, 2025

And lastly, he then retweeted a tweet that read: "If the entire government is protecting pedophiles, it has officially become the government against the people. I hope you all understand that."

Elon Musk reposted
Sarah Fields@SarahisCensored
If the entire government is protecting pedophiles, it has officially become the government against the people.

I hope you all understand that.

So...yeah. Musk is back online, beefing, stirring the pot with memes and accusations, while the DOJ says there's nothing more to see here. Whether any of it leads anywhere? TBD. In the meantime, Musk said he is launching a third political party called the "America Party," while Trump, never one to stay quiet, called Musk a "TRAIN WRECK" in a tirade on Sunday.

Elon Musk reposted
$TSLA Hodler@TSLAshareholder
elon's response to trump

Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump
I am saddened to watch Elon Musk go completely "off the rails," essentially becoming a TRAIN WRECK over the past five weeks. He even wants to start a Third Political Party, despite the fact that they have never succeeded in the United States - The System seems not designed for them. The one thing Third Parties are good for is the creation of Complete and Total DISRUPTION & CHAOS, and we have enough of that with the Radical Left Democrats, who have lost their confidence and their minds! Republicans, on the other hand, are a smooth running "machine," that just passed the biggest Bill of its kind in the History of our Country. It is a Great Bill but, unfortunately for Elon, it eliminates the ridiculous Electric Vehicle (EV) Mandate, which would have forced everyone to buy an Electric Car in a short period of time. I have been strongly opposed to that from the very beginning. People are now allowed to buy whatever they want - Gasoline Powered, Hybrids (which are doing very well), or New Technologies as they come about - No more EV Mandate. I have campaigned on this for two years and, quite honestly, when Elon gave me his total and unquestioned Endorsement, I asked him whether or not he knew that I was going to terminate the EV Mandate - It was in every speech I made, and in every conversation I had. He said he had no problems with that - I was very surprised! Additionally, Elon asked that one of his close friends run NASA and, while I though his friend was very good, I was surprised to learn that he was a blue blooded Democrat, who had never contributed to a Republican before. Elon probably was, also. I also thought it inappropriate that a very close friend of Elon, who was in the Space Business, run NASA, when NASA is such a big part of Elon's corporate life. My Number One charge is to protect the American Public!

Le sigh, I wish I could tell you this is all just one sick joke. But no, this is real life, starring the world’s richest man and our country's highest official. What a timeline to watch unfold.

As of posting, the Trump administration has not yet responded to Musk's tweets. We will update you if they do.

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INTEL Roundtable w/ Johnson & McGovern : Weekly Wrap 11-July-25
by Judge Napolitano, Larry Johnson & Ray McGovern
Judging Freedom
Streamed 1 day ago



Transcript

Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here
for Judging Freedom. Today is Friday,
July 11th, 2025. It's the end of the
week, the end of the day. It's our
favorite time, our intelligence
community roundtable with Larry Johnson and
Ray McGovern. Ray has been traveling in
Europe and is kind enough to break away
from his lecture schedule to join us.
Guys, it's always a pleasure. Thank you
for the double duty. Thank you for the
information you provide me during the
week and thank you for letting me pick
your brains.

Now, Larry, to you
first. Why do you think Israeli Prime
Minister Netanyahu
has visited the White House and Capitol
Hill three times in the past six months
during the presidency of Donald Trump?

[Larry Johnson] Well, this time is to lock down more
aid, because they were they were
devastated by what Iran did to them over
the course of those 12 days. That's
number one. Number two, try to
see, to take the temperature of
Trump face-to-face, and see if he can get
him convinced to make another go at
Iran. I don't think they're finished at
all. Trump, for his
part, you know, maybe one explanation
for why he's going so hard after the
judges in Israel who are hearing the
case involving Netanyahu's corruption, is
that if you can get
Netanyahu off, so to speak, and then
get Netanyahu convinced to move
forward with the ceasefire. because Trump
is, you know, he's a keen man. He wants that
Nobel Prize, so he's going to do anything he can.
And so, maybe to that extent, if there's some
additional negotiation -- but
listening to Netanyahu at the end of the
trip, I think Netanyahu, he got everything
he wanted out of Trump.

[Judge Andrew Napolitano] Uh Rey, I think Larry's correct.
Netanyahu was as tenacious as ever. And I think as manipulative as ever.
What is your take as to how to justify
three meetings? Actually, it's more than
three meetings. It's three trips, but this
trip alone had three meetings with
Trump, only two of which were
partially on television.

[Ray McGovern, former CIA Intel Analyst] I think Judge it has to do with internal
politics in Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem.
Netanyahu needs every chance to show
that Trump is backing him 100%. And
these trips help that to the degree that
Trump sort of ratifies that. And this
is, let's face it, this is Netanyahu's
strongest hand. He has the backing of
the president of the United States. And
I think that was mostly why he came.

The serving of the, or giving him the
copy of the Nobel Prize, well,
my god, one war criminal giving a Nobel
Prize nomination to another one. I mean,
that was a little bit too much to take.
But, we have to laugh these things off,
otherwise we die crying.

[Judge Napolitano] Right. Larry, is there any
analysis you can share about the timing
of Netanyahu's trip and the decision of
the Justice Department -- Both occurred on
the same day -- to do a 180 on the Epstein
files? The Justice Department, the
attorney general, said they were on her
desk while Netanyahu is here. Maybe I'm
reading more in this than there is. I
don't know. That's why I want your
thoughts. She and Kash Patel and Dan
Bongino announced there's no there's no
enemies, there's no client list, we
never had one. There's nothing to
reveal.

[Larry Johnson] Yeah. You mean you don't believe in
coincidence? Jeez.
God almighty. You know, look, the
client list does exist. It's been
admitted to by others. Ryan Dawson has
compiled it, not by just sitting down
and coming up with names out of his
own mind, but he actually read through
all the court transcripts, all the
witness statements, all the charging
documents, and he was able to come up
with a list of 78 people that include
folks like Jamie Diamond, Robert Craft.

[Judge Andrew Napolitano] Now,
you published that list on your website,
did you not?

[Larry Johnson] Yeah, sonar 21.

Now, note: there are
billionaires on that list! If Ryan was
putting their names out and said, "Hey,
they're on the Epstein list," you
know, he'd be sued if it was false. So,
that's why he hasn't been sued by one of
them. That tells you a lot right
there.

I also learned this week from my
business partner, who has brought a tax
case against the Clinton Foundation,
that he received from one of the
Scandinavian countries a flight
manifest from Mr. Epstein. And on that
plane,
Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, and James
Comey. They flew from the
island up into one of the
Scandinavian countries. Now, what were
they doing? I don't know. Maybe
attending a chess tournament. Who knows?
But the point is, this
administration, they're not protecting
Donald Trump because, I tell you, if Trump
was on that list, do you think the Biden
crew would have let that, you know kept
and protected that? Oh absolutely not.
They would have destroyed him with it.

But two things are going on. (1) protecting this as a Israeli intelligent
asset. And (2) if there are friends
of Donald Trump on that list, he may not
have even paid attention to it before,
but once he saw his friends on that
list, he said, "I'm not going to let him
be ratted out." But I think it had
more to do with him as a MOSSAD asset,
with some CIA involvement, very likely.

Rey, was uh Epstein a MSAD asset? And
would the MSAD use sexual blackmail
uh to control uh public policy of a
country?
Yes. And certainly yes. had done it in
the past. U Venoo was captured or sort
of a honeypot sort of operation, the
fellow who revealed with photos what the
Israelis were doing with respect to
working on an atomic bomb. So yeah, it's
part of the trade craft. I'm not I would
have to say that not only Israelis do
this thing, but this is done by
virtually all intelligence services.
What do you know the uh extent of
uh from your uh friends in intelligence
Epstein's activities with MSAD? Was he
an agent? Was he an asset? Was he paid?
Did they have damaging information on
him to the point where he was forced to
work for them?
Well, obviously someone paid him big
bucks. right
now. I don't know who exactly that was,
but if you you put in uh put in
perspective all the people that profited
from his operations, the Israelis in the
first instance and know those those
fellows that had this great time on that
island in the second one, they never
thought that they would be
blackmailable. That's really stupid. Why
else would they be given this these
these favors? But, you know, somebody
paid and somebody got them killed. I
mean, it's pretty clear, huh? It's
pretty clear.
Yeah,
somebody somebody got him killed in that
prison. So, will this come out? Uh,
well, hopefully it will. Maybe Cash
Patel is going to pursue this like a
bulldog, but maybe not. We'll just have
to see.
It doesn't It doesn't seem like it. Dr.
Michael Boden, who's the world's
foremost um pathologist
uh and a friend of mine from testifying
uh before me and used by the government
over and over again uh has testified
under oath that there's no way under the
laws of physics that Epstein could have
uh broken his own neck in the manner in
which it was broken. Uh, Larry, will
Israel ever be at peace with its
neighbors until they're all reduced
uh unless they're all uh reduced to the
status of Libya or Syria?
No, it's impossible because the entire
premise of Zionism,
you know, that which emerged in the, you
know, late 19th century as a really is
it wasn't a religious
Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a
minute. Larry, Ted Cruz told Tucker
Carlson that the references to Israel in
the Old Testament were to the country
governed by Benjamin Netanyahu today. I
had to get that in there. I know you
know this. Go ahead.
Yeah, he for he forgot to understand
that that first promise was to Abraham
and to all nations. And gee, if that
promises to Abraham, that means uh the
Arabs, the Muslims as well are blessed
under that.
Correct. Correct. Islam is an Abrahamic
religion. Go ahead.
But so he just he just, you know, he
just doesn't know his Bible very well.
But but but that's what's the absurdity
of all of this that this this political
movement that came out of basically
Europe and with Theodore Hersel as the
big advocate who was not a religious,
you know, he wasn't a religious Jew,
they they they they premised this entire
thing that God gave this land to us, but
we don't believe in God. So I'm going,
yeah, how does that work? That's like
that's like being a secular Christian,
you know?
Well,
so
there's never going to be peace there.
And and they're never going to be
selfsufficient.
They are counting on
Donald Trump and subsequent Donald
Trump's to continue
uh to provide them with aid at the
expense of the American government. Did
you know that Netanyahu flew home
uh with two jets that Trump gave him
from the Air Force?
I didn't know the president could just
give away Air Force jets. Ray McGovern,
did you?
Well, did he have a a foot on each one?
Was he a stride the two jets? You know,
Netanyahu is pretty pretty uh agile. No,
I I think it's ridiculous and it really
is a matter of time. I think the latest
polls show that a lot of Americans don't
like genocide. A lot of Americans are
seeing the photos coming from Gaza. A
lot of Americans, much fewer than 80%
that Netany bragged about having. 80% he
said 80% of the Americans will support
us no matter what. That is absurd. End
quote. Well, it was absurd then when he
said it 25 years ago. It's even more
absurd now. He's below 50% in my view if
you take a a nationwide poll of those
who know what's going on in the world.
So that's the change. That's a a salutoy
change. It's just it's coming so damn
slow that hundreds of thousands of more
Palestinians are likely to be killed in
the interim.
Larry, and I forgot to run this, so
we're going to back up to Epstein for a
minute. And I know you're of the belief
and rightly so that Trump's name is on
it or the Biden DOJ uh would have uh
revealed it. But when Pam Bondi, the
attorney general, was asked by a
reporter at a cabinet meeting what
became of the client list before she
could answer. The president said this.
Are you still talking about Jeffrey
Epstein? This guy's been talked about
for years. That is unbelievable.
Do you want to waste the time on it? Do
you feel like answering?
I I don't mind answering.
I mean, I can't believe you're asking a
question on Epstein.
In February, I did an interview on Fox
and it's been getting a lot of attention
because I said I was asked a question
about the client list and my response
was, "It's sitting on my desk to be
reviewed." Also to the tens of thousands
of video, never going to be released,
never going to see the light of day. to
him being an agent. I have no knowledge
about that. We can get back to you on
that. And that's it on Epstein.
Well, Marco Rubio like he's watching a
tennis match
between the two of them. I I couldn't
help uh but uh but noting that uh let's
uh move on. Larry, how do you explain
just speaking about tennis match or
pingpong? How do you explain uh aid to
Ukraine? on again, off again, on again,
increased again. That's what we've seen
in the past two weeks with Trump.
This kind of erratic behavior,
I actually I think there's something
mentally wrong with Trump. Um, in fact,
I've spoken to I I without revealing my
source, somebody who has had frequent
meetings with Trump over the last 18
months said that in these last meetings,
he's noticed a noticeable change related
to age. Uh, and when you listen to Trump
talk, he talks in this monotone like,
you know, like he's Rainman,
uh, you know, with with some sort of
autistic disease. But but to to to play
these kinds of games with with with the
weapons and with war in Ukraine,
Ukraine, Russia's just laughing at him
because they they recognize
they're not going to get a serious deal.
So they're they know how they know the
game. Praise him, tell him he's
wonderful. Say, "Hey, man, we think you
too should get the Nobel Peace Prize."
But the Russians are going to keep doing
what the Russians are doing. They're
going to defeat uh the Ukrainians. But
did you see the other day that there
were four Iscander missiles that hit
Kiev? These Trump sending 10 Patriot
missiles. Each you have to fire two of
those Patriot missiles to try to take
out one Escander, which they can't do.
But the point is in that one minute with
four rockets coming in, you would have
used up 80% of what Donald Trump is
sending. So I mean this is ridiculous.
It's it's it's just absurd theater.
Ray, before you jump in on this, and of
course I want you to watch this, Chris,
cut number 11.
Are you planning to send more weapons to
Ukraine?
Uh, we're going to send some more
weapons. We have to they they have to be
able to defend themselves. They're
getting hit very hard now. They're
getting hit very hard. We're going to
have to send more weapons. Your
defensive weapons primarily.
Mr. President, you send more weapons to
Ukraine as you said last night. Last
week the Pentagon paused some shipments
of weapons to Ukraine. Did you approve
of that pause?
We want to put defensive weapons because
Putin is not he's not uh treating human
beings right. He's killing too many
people. So, we're sending uh some
defensive weapons to Ukraine and I've
approved that.
So, who ordered a pause last week?
I don't know. Why don't you tell me,
sir? Yesterday, um you said that you
were not sure who ordered the munitions
um halted to Ukraine. Have you since
been able to figure that out?
Well, I haven't thought about it because
we're looking at Ukraine right now and
munitions, but uh I have no I have not
gone into it. What does it say that such
a big decision could be made inside your
government without you knowing?
Uh, I would know if a decision was made.
I will know. I'll be the first to know.
In fact, most likely I'd give the order,
but I haven't done that yet. Does the
Kremlin think, Ray McGovern, when they
see the American president speaking like
that? I mean, this is this is beyond
what Larry's uh colleague has described.
Well, judge, I'm sure that the Kremlin
has its own equivalent of what we used
to have in the CIA at a distance
psychological profiles.
And I'm sure they've come up with with a
result similar to the what that Larry
mentioned before. The man is erratic.
The man may be sick, but he's the guy
that they can deal with, the only guy
they can deal with for the next three
years. And they've said, "Oh, yeah. When
when Trump says u oh I am not happy I am
not happy with Russia I'm not happy with
M well the reaction from Putin's
spokesperson is yeah well you know a
person in the United States is erratic
and not always consistent but uh you
know uh we we're operating on a tougher
plane on an overseer plane we want to
develop relations now what's the proof I
would aduce well just yesterday Rubio
meeting with Lavo
in Koala Lumpur.
U they met for an hour and what was the
readout? It said, "Well, you know, uh
Rubio, here's what Rubio says. You know,
the Russians have a new and different
kind of suggestion on Ukraine and I'm
going to bring that back to the
president. It's something like a a
stepbystep approach like a like a road
map, says Rubio." Okay. and and the
whole thing is described by the Russians
as a mutually respectful dialogue on a
growing range of issues of mutual
interest. So all I can say here is that
the Russians are aware that this guy may
be a little bit deranged. He's the only
fellow they can work with. The Russians
have the upper hand in Ukraine. They
don't need to rush. They need to see
what Trump is willing to do in terms of
getting Ukraine behind him so he can
move on to bigger and better things. My
God, in the Middle East and in ch with
respect to China. So all I'm saying here
is it's become increasingly clear that
even though Trump says every other day,
I'm really not happy with those
Russians, the Russians just dust it off
and say, look, we think the guy is
serious. We're going to test that out.
But in any case, we're winning and we're
just to see how much of a deal we can
cut so that we don't have to take over
the whole country.
Larry, are the neocons in his
administration finally triumphant?
Yeah, I'd say so. They're getting
everything that they want at this point.
Um, it is it's unfortunate that Trump,
you know, Trump likes to think of
himself as being Reagan-esque.
Uh Reagan with all of his faults and
flaws, he actually did a good job of
selecting good people in positions.
Whether you got Casper Weinberger or
Secretary of Defense, George Schultz,
the Secretary of State. I mean, you
know, I'm not saying you agree with
their policies, but at least they were
intelligent,
thoughtful. Schultz Schultz was a giant.
But, you know, Trump's got a clown show
going on. Yeah,
he doesn't, you know, he made his money,
part of his money on television
pretending he knew how to hire and fire
people and yet, you know, look at what
he's done and just the the the lack of
quality between the likes of Heg Seth
and Marco Rubio, you know, they're just
they're not even in the same league. But
but he is uh I'm afraid continuing to
follow their line. If he if he had a
clear vision about being Mr. Peace, he
would have cut off all the weapons
flows. He would have cut off the
intelligence cooperation and would have
would have brought an end to this war
there as well as in Palestine. But
instead, he enables the genocide in
Palestine and he allows this war to
continue.
Rey, if if Rubio said that uh Lavough
gave him a new version of things, Rubio
was naive. the the Russians have had the
same five or six conditions
beginning with no NATO and ending with
no military from the beginning. What
what could Lavough possibly have said
that Rubio thinks is newsworthy or
different and worthy of transmitting to
the president unless Rubio who's not
been part of the negotiations because
Witoff has is first now exposed to this?
Well, Judge, we'll have to see, won't
we? Uh Rubio's got a new set of
suggestions from the Russians. He thinks
it's interesting enough to mention to
the press that he's going to take them
back to the president. And he says, you
know, it's really kind of funny. It's a
stepbystep kind of a road map. Well,
hello. That may make you naive. That's
the way you do these negotiations. Now,
I'm not saying that the Russian terms
have changed. They haven't and they
won't because the Russians are winning.
What I am saying is that if the neocons
were completely controlled, there would
be no talks with the Russians. There
would be no Trump reaching out to say,
"Oh, I'd like to meet her and talk to
Putin again." There would be no hope on
the Russian side that they could make a
deal. The deal is there to in the
offing. It's going to be heavily favored
in Russia's Russia's favor, of course,
and it's going to take another month
before the uh the is the Ukrainian army
collapses, but the deal is there for the
making. And I have to make sure that
people realize that at least I
differentiate between the Dr. Jackekal
and the Mr. Hyde. The Dr. Jackekal on
Ukraine, Trump I'm talking about, of
course, and the Mr. Hyde that enables
genocide for God's sake and worse in in
joining uh a war aggression against
Iran. So uh you know, I'll take the Dr.
Jackekal and I think that's the attitude
that Puchin has. He's the only guy we
have. We're talking to him. Rubio talks
to Lavarov and Rubio says, "Well, wait a
second. Here's some good suggestions.
I'm gonna take that for." So, you know,
let's not prejudge this. Let's see what
Rubio comes up with or what the
president says, "Well, that's not a bad
idea. I hadn't thought of that." Step by
Oh, well, that's interesting. Before we
prejudge the thing and say that that the
president is really not that realistic
or he dumb or he's hemmed in completely
by the neocons. But Larry, the neocons
will never accept anything less
than Russian military evacuation from
eastern Ukraine. That is not only
unrealistic, it's impossible.
Yeah, it's not going to happen. Look,
Lavro had an interview uh last week
with Maguar Nem, a Hungarian uh news
outlet, and he gave the strongest,
clearest outline of what Russia's
position is. and and it it hasn't it
hasn't the only thing that's changed
from what Vladimir Putin presented on
June 14th 2024 is that is now that the
west has got to recognize that Crimea
Sevastapole Dets Lance Zaparisia and
Kerosan uh are in fact this is what he
said he said there must be international
legal recognition of the new territorial
realities following the accession of
Crimea Sevast Paul, the Daetsk and
Luhans people's republics as well as the
Zaparisia and Keran regions into the
Russian Federation.
So, and on the agenda are the
demilitarization and denazification of
Ukraine, lifting of anti-Russian
sanctions, withdrawal of lawsuits
against Russia, and return of illegally
frozen assets in the West. He, you know,
that's that's what Rubio heard.
Well, wait a second. Wait a second,
Larry. Larry, what's the date of what
Lav said that you quoted? What's the
date?
It was last week. It was like
Okay. Well, I'm talking about yesterday.
I'm talking about yesterday.
Ray. Ray.
He talked yesterday.
No, no, no. Absolutely not. I I spoke
with Lavro. Judge and I both spoke with
Lavro. These not He doesn't go out and
say this and then come out and say
something different from that. Are you
kidding?
Of course he does. In private, he tells
he he tells
Oh, no. No.
Rubio exactly what Rubio said. Yeah.
Look, when you Rubio, let's entertain
the possibility that Rubio's lying.
Why would he lie about this?
Why would he lie about he he wants to
he'll put the spin on it, Ray?
Larry, what when when you talk to Lev,
what exactly did he tell you?
He said he said exactly what's in this
message. He said exactly what's in this
message. He told us the same six
conditions that President Putin said in
2022, which Larry just articulated.
Yeah. I'm not talking about when you and
Larry were together in Moscow. What I'm
talking about was Larry was there alone
and he reported that Lavarov said
something to him three times and where
there's no justification for that
because the video was on all that time
and Lavarov said no such thing. So if
we're talking about what love says, we
can say what it said eight eight days
ago. Now I see what it says.
You're wrong. You're wrong on this, Ray.
Okay, then show me the proof. Show me
the video.
I just showed you the proof right here
with the three paragraphs that Lav Ross
said to the Hungarians and he repeated
it at bricks. You've been traveling. You
haven't had a chance to read or read
this or watch it.
That's their going in position. Larry,
what he said to Rubio yesterday is is
what Rubio is reporting back that that's
different. You know, you can't go with
the old thing. Of course, they're going
to go with the maximum position. What
I'm saying here is that Lo said
something different to Rubio yesterday
and Rubio and and the readout from the
Russian side said this is a very
respectful
Let me let me jump in. That's
ridiculous.
Let me jump in. I'm watching two of my
closest friends, comrades, colleagues
who have advised me over the years and
each of whom appears twice a week or
more on this show. Disagree with each
other. The audience loves
we respectfully disagree. That's
Yes. Yes. As JFK said, we will disagree
agreeably. So on that, we will finish.
Gentlemen, have a great weekend. We'll
see you both on Monday. Thank you for
your time. Thanks for the double duty.
Thanks for still loving each other while
you're throwing the punches. Have a
great weekend.
You too, Judge.
Thank you. All the best to both of you
guys. Thank you.
Thank you,
man. Monday is a very busy day for us.
At 8 in the morning, Alistair Crook. At
10 in the morning, Ray McGovern. At
10:45 in the morning, Professor Jeffrey
Saxs. At 11:30 in the morning, Larry
Johnson. At 1:00 in the afternoon,
Colonel Douglas McGregor at 2 in the
afternoon, Scott Ritterder. Hang on to
your seat belts. Have a great weekend,
everybody. Judge Npal Tanner for Judging
Freedom.
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