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GHISLAILNE MAXWELL INTERVIEW, PART TWO


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United States Department of Justice
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 24, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General
Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy
Attorney General
Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent
Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell:
David Markus
Leah Saffian
Melissa Madrigal
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1 I N T E R V I E W
2 ***
3 TODD BLANCHE: I am going to ask everybody
4 to put their name on the record here.
5 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. My name is
6 Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of
7 FBI, New York.
8 Today we're doing a proffer of
9 Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th and the time is
10 10:12 a.m. This interview is being recorded.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And my name is Todd
12 Blanche. I'm the Deputy Attorney General. And
13 before we start formally asking questions of
14 Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody
15 that's in this room, in addition to me, starting with
16 you, Diego.
17 DIEGO PESTANA: Diego Pestana, Associate
18 Deputy Attorney General.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And then you heard from
20 Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the
21 United States Marshal Service is here as well.
22 And then David.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Yes. This is David Oscar
24 Markus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: My name is Leah Saffian and
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1 I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
2 MELISSA MADRIGAL: My name is
3 Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Ghislaine
4 Maxwell.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I'm -- I'm
7 Ghislaine Maxwell.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
9 How are you?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning,
11 Mr. Blanche.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Good. Okay. So before we
13 started recording, we met for a few minutes. I
14 introduced myself and we -- we've chatted and now
15 I've told you that we were going on the record. And
16 before we start asking questions, I know that you've
17 been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what's called a
18 proffer agreement.
19 And I just want to spend two minutes
20 making sure that you understand what -- what governs
21 our conversation today. The most important part of
22 this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation
23 agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today,
24 we're really just meeting, I'm not promising to do
25 anything.
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1 I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or
2 any of the judges that's been assigned to your case
3 to do anything. It -- we're just talking. And so
4 that's the most important -- important part of -- of
5 this agreement.
6 However, almost as important is the fact
7 that what this agreement does for you is it gives you
8 protection. So what it means is that the government
9 cannot use what you say today against you, with some
10 exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.
11 But whatever you talk about today, you
12 have what's called immunity. So that means that the
13 words that you say today, we cannot use against you
14 in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one.
15 Okay?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
17 TODD BLANCHE: All right. There's
18 exceptions to that. The most meaningful one of which
19 is that, if you say something today that's not true,
20 that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you
21 for what's called false statements.
22 So I'm a federal officer, I have several
23 officers here. The FBI is here. And if -- if you
24 lie to someone that's -- like me or like Special
25 Agent Horn, it's a crime. So you have to be
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1 truthful.
2 The other exception to this, that doesn't
3 necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever
4 was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a --
5 a criminal case -- a future criminal case against
6 you, and your lawyer or you said something different
7 or took a position that's different than what you say
8 today, we can then cross examine you or a witness,
9 based upon what you say today.
10 So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I
11 can't use what you say against you in our case in
12 chief. However, if you were to testify or if your
13 lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said
14 something that is totally different than what you say
15 today, we could then cross examine you or the witness
16 and say, hey, do you remember when we met with
17 Ms. Wax -- when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July
18 of 2025? She told us and then say what she said.
19 Okay?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I understand.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Other than that,
22 you -- I -- I know you didn't have a lot of time this
23 morning to meet with -- with -- with Mr. Markus, but
24 did -- did you have a chance to go over this briefly
25 with him?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So I've
3 already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- and Mr. Markus signed it
6 as well. So you got a pen, please sign it --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right here?
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- right where it says
9 "client." Yes.
10 And I will provide a copy of this to -- to
11 your lawyer so you guys have it.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay, thank you.
14 So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half
15 ago or two weeks ago --
16 SPENCER HORN: Can you see the light
17 blinking on there? On the Sony? Yeah, there it is.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. We're just confirming
19 that it works and it does.
20 Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a
21 half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me
22 and said that -- that you wanted to speak with
23 somebody from the government about, not only your
24 case, but about everything that's been in the media
25 and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your
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1 case.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true and I did
5 speak to him and I did ask him if -- oh, and did tell
6 him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone,
7 because no one from the government, at any time, ever
8 in the -- since the inception of the case, so dating
9 back to the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and
10 indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time
11 to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I
12 was indicted and prosecuted.
13 I believe that -- or I understand, I
14 should say, rather, that my attorneys, at the time,
15 did tell the government that I wanted to speak to
16 them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone, so
17 that I could tell or have them ask me any question.
18 I've never had any problem to -- to speak
19 to anybody. And I offered myself and I kept asking,
20 if they would meet with me, so I could talk to them
21 and for whatever reason --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was not
24 happening.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I have questions
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1 that I want to ask you, but I'm not -- if there's a
2 path that -- a question that I'm not asking, that you
3 think should be asked, I -- I invite you to
4 volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers.
5 Just to start a little bit very briefly,
6 can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein. I
7 know that goes back a while. And just very generally
8 talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from
9 the time you met him all the way up until -- until
10 his death.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Epstein in
12 1991. My -- I had -- I had never heard of him or met
13 him before. And no one in my family had ever either.
14 My father never knew him. And I'll explain why that
15 is the case. I met --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Where did you -- where --
17 where did you meet him?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had a girlfriend
19 who -- I -- I was -- yeah. I had moved to America,
20 briefly, in -- well, I'd moved to America in 1990.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well "moved,"
23 that's a big word. I'd come to visit America in
24 1990. I had been running my own company up until
25 that time, which was a company called Maxwell's
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1 Corporate Gifts.
2 And I had also been working for my father
3 at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was --
4 in 1990 I was working with a -- a new company of his,
5 a new -- a new newspaper that he was launching,
6 called The European.
7 And I was in charge of launching a
8 magazine to go with the -- The European. And I was
9 traveling at that time from England to America,
10 because my father was looking to -- well, he'd also
11 bought McMillan the -- the publishing house. And he
12 had purchased the New York Daily News.
13 And it's truth that my father always
14 wanted me to come back, full time and work for him,
15 but that's a much longer story I don't think we need
16 to go into at this time.
17 So -- but I was always working with him.
18 There was no escaping it were -- as it were to -- to
19 work for him.
20 So in 1990, I had come over to New York,
21 to help look at some of that. He was having some
22 advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And
23 in fact, I met -- I may have met Donald Trump at that
24 time, because my father was friendly with him and
25 liked him very much. And I think, should be said
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1 that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was
2 also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.
3 So I don't -- I don't remember if I did
4 meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that
5 that's how I knew about, -- about Mr. Trump.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And this was before you
7 met --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This was before I met
9 Mr. Epstein.
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- Mr. Epstein?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I was already going
14 backwards and forwards in America. And then in April
15 of 1991, I came to New York, but, I can't remember
16 for what reason -- what business reason, but there
17 was a business reason -- something to do with my dad
18 at that time.
19 And a girlfriend of mine who -- an
20 American, told me I -- I -- I had broken up with my
21 long -- I'd been engaged, getting my -- the very
22 long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up.
23 And she said, I've got -- you know, as
24 your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.
25 And I was like, who is it? And she goes, it's --
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1 he's been dating my sister. You'll love him. He's
2 looking for a wife. I'm edging towards 30. I don't
3 need to tell you guys, That's a very important moment
4 for a girl to, like, think about important things.
5 And sure, I'd be happy to meet him.
6 And so sometime in 1991 now. We are in
7 1991, I met him at his offices in -- on Madison
8 Garden. And I think the most memorable thing I can
9 think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he
10 didn't often do. It had a giant, seemed like a
11 ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow, okay. And
12 that was how we met.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Was your meeting at his
14 office for you to meet him just personally or were
15 you -- were you there for --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was just --
17 TODD BLANCHE: -- work related reasons?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I knew
19 nothing about him.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- he just invited
22 me to come and have tea, and I was like tea, that's
23 English. Okay. But what was unusual, was in his
24 offices. So I went to his offices and we met. And I
25 found him very engaging and that was that.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So that's how
2 you meet him. So we -- and again, I don't want to
3 spend a lot of time, you know, on -- on this
4 particular issue, but what happened with your
5 relationship over the years, from the time you meet
6 him in 1991, up until the time he -- he passed away?
7 DAVID MARKUS: Just give the highlights.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, the highlights.
9 So I -- I was looking for real estate for my dad to
10 buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also
11 looking to move from his apartment and would I help
12 him? And I -- I said, sure I'm looking already so I
13 could look for him. So that's how it started.
14 And then, in 1991, my father passed away
15 and I returned to New York after that, originally to
16 come back and help with the family businesses, which
17 was McMillan.
18 And then the debacle of my father's
19 passing hit the family. And -- and we lost all our
20 businesses and my family thought that it would be
21 best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity
22 of the press and the drama surrounding my father's
23 death in England
24 So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you
25 can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and
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1 we can decorate the house. And it gave me something
2 to do.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Were you in a romantic
4 relationship with him at this point or just friends?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, just friends.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And while we're just --
7 with respect to your father, there have been multiple
8 questions about whether he worked for any
9 intelligence agency.
10 Do you have any knowledge about that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- well
12 certainly my father had a background in intelligence
13 during -- because he was -- I believe he did in the
14 second World War. He was an intelli- -- a British
15 intelligence officer. I think that, my sort of
16 belief is that once you've been an intelligence
17 officer, you're kind of -- always; it doesn't mean
18 that you're formally employed.
19 So I don't think my dad in any formal
20 sense was, you know, employed by the -- any agency.
21 But when you are a very significant businessman and
22 politician, as my father was, you meet with people
23 over time and you, I guess trade business or ideas.
24 I think if -- if that would fall under
25 that definition, that's how I would give it.
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1 Now he certainly, I have no formal
2 knowledge of anything specifically that he did in
3 that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that
4 he did help people, the answer would be yes, I did.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did your father and Mr.
6 Epstein have a business relationship over the years?
7 I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They never met. So --
9 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, they
10 never even met?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I--
12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or you know they never
13 met?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know they never met.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Well, how do you know they
16 never met?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They -- just
18 categorically know they never met. Well, because
19 after, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if
20 I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know,
21 because I was still trying not to be sucked back into
22 the family business.
23 And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein.
24 And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein,
25 because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked
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1 for Bear Stearns. And Bear Stearns was one of our
2 banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with
3 both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg.
4 So my dad came -- was actually in
5 New York, I think. If I remem- -- I may -- I don't
6 think I had this conversation on the phone, but I --
7 I honestly we're talking 30 years ago, so I'm not
8 sure.
9 But if I -- I maybe I told him this
10 verbatim, because it happened -- I know that what my
11 dad did, whether I saw it or whether I -- he did it
12 and told me later I -- that I don't remember.
13 But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace
14 Greenberg to ask if -- what sort of guy he was and
15 was he even allowed to -- because (indiscernible)
16 so . . .
17 TODD BLANCHE: So they never -- they never
18 met.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't even know
20 who he was.
21 TODD BLANCHE: But they had -- they --
22 they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or
23 certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something
24 that -- that you -- that you knew that they had.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, he never
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1 had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection
2 with the bank. I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of
3 him or knew of him before. And I certainly -- if my
4 dad had known him, right, when I said, this is who he
5 was, he didn't know who he was.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So he rang Ace and he
8 rang Jimmy, to ask if it was okay that I even knew
9 him. And I just want to explain, briefly why my
10 father would even do such a thing.
11 I've had some -- some interesting things
12 that have happened in my life. And one of them was
13 to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so
14 after that happened -- well, there were other
15 related -- I'm not going to bore you with all the
16 horrible things in that vein, but I -- if you want
17 the details, of course I can.
18 But after that happened, my father wanted
19 to put a lot of protection on me, obviously. And I
20 declined on the grounds that that would be a very
21 life-restricting event. You are all in law
22 enforcement, I know you understand this.
23 And so he had told me that, you know, I
24 would be taking my life in my own hands and then
25 whatever. And so I think after that event and
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1 several others, where I had stalkers and all that
2 thing that one has, he was always quite protective of
3 me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and
4 verify that they weren't going to do anything
5 hideous.
6 And so in case he thought it was weird,
7 that he would call Jimmy and -- and Ace -- it
8 might -- you know, you may think it is but in my --
9 from my perspective, he was just -- because he was
10 concerned, I was in America alone and he had an
11 opportunity to verify who this person was.
12 And so I don't know if I was in the room
13 with him, I don't recall. But I know that at some
14 point my father told me he's fine. You can see him.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He's safe.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay.
19 TODD BLANCHE: So we might come back and
20 touch a little bit more on that at some point, but --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- I went down a rabbit
23 hole for a minute.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's all right. I
25 just wanted to --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: No, that's helpful.
2 Thank you.
3 So -- okay. So you're -- you're now in
4 the '90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein. Your
5 house -- decorating the house or the apartment.
6 What -- what happens with your
7 relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a
8 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent
9 you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Listen, I think just
11 full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in 1992, I slept
14 with him one time and I was like, whoa, that's it.
15 We're going to be dating, because that's how I
16 thought. And -- and I kind of thought of myself in
17 that moment. Like, because you, I felt if you slept
18 with someone, that you were then dating them.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's the world I
21 came from. But that really was -- well, that's how I
22 thought. And -- but we didn't sleep together again
23 for, I don't know, really a significant period of
24 time. And when I say --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Like years or?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if it was
2 a year. I don't -- it feels that feels long, but
3 maybe nine months, I mean, a long time.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want to go
6 back to -- I had found a house for him to rent in
7 New York, because he had asked me -- I had been
8 looking at one for my father, and I found one, which
9 was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I
10 think it belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis or
11 someone.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I didn't know that
14 he had any money. It was like, I want to say it was
15 $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune.
16 And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't
17 think you can afford it. He was like, that's
18 ridiculous. Of course I can afford, and he rented
19 it.
20 And that house came with -- it was a State
21 Department house, because it was -- I think that was
22 under sequestration or whatever it was.
23 And I -- I put it back together, but there
24 were certain rules, you couldn't paint, because it
25 had to go back and he gave it back to the country
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1 then.
2 So he had this house and I had moved into
3 a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because all of our
4 stuff had been either lost or frozen or -- or
5 whatever.
6 So he became, in this moment, my life
7 line, really, because I was -- everything was --felt
8 very similar to this moment, if that makes sense.
9 Anyway, so but I had no key to his house.
10 I had no free access to his house. And in the entire
11 time that he lived there, which was I believe until,
12 the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night
13 in that house. Never ever. Not one.
14 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- so you -- you --
15 you said a minute ago that the -- that you had slept
16 with him on one occasion, and at the time you
17 remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were
18 in a relationship, but then it didn't -- you really
19 were not in that type of relationship.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I thought --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did that change over --
22 between '91 and '92 or whatever and -- and -- and
23 years forward?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I did travel with
25 him a lot.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I would go to his
3 houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house
4 actually in -- no, that's not true. He had the house
5 in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.
6 TODD BLANCHE: In where?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ohio.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had the house
10 in Ohio because of his business relationship with
11 Mr. Wexner. And he had a -- and I had to go and
12 decorate and put that house together. When we
13 traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not
14 in -- but I didn't --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. It's okay, talk.
16 So you -- you stayed -- so when you would
17 travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or
18 even just traveling, if -- if -- if it was just
19 traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed.
20 So sleep in the same bed with him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Epstein told me that
24 he had a heart condition.
25 DAVID MARKUS: A what?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heart condition.
2 DAVID MARKUS: Heart condition.
3 TODD BLANCHE: A heart condition. Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which meant that he
5 didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine,
6 because I actually do have a medical condition, which
7 precludes me having a lot of intercourse.
8 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- what was your
9 understanding of his heart condition and why that
10 prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean,
12 he liked other forms of sexual activities.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, let's come back.
14 We're going to obviously spend some
15 time -- a lot of time on the actual conduct he was
16 accused of. So we'll --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- we'll -- we'll come back
19 to that. So pick up where you -- where you were
20 talking about you traveling around with him, he
21 rented the New York, former Iranian House --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Iranian, there you go.
23 Yeah.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- until around '96. At
25 that time, you -- I believe you said that he was
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1 basically your life, like you were with him pretty
2 regularly.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- no.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I never was with
6 him regularly.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is one of those
9 misnomers.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, at the
12 beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his
13 office. So I would go to the office and I would see
14 him, and I would count in my head when I would see
15 him. I would count that I would -- that would be a
16 day that I would see him. But I didn't -- I never,
17 ever stayed with him.
18 I believe certainly until '93 or '94, what
19 I didn't know was that I think he was still with his
20 actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson, who became
21 Eva Dubin. They had been together, my understanding,
22 I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's
23 what I think, 10 years.
24 And I had understood from my girlfriend
25 initially, that they weren't together and Epstein
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1 himself had told me that they were not together. But
2 I don't -- I don't think that was true. In fact, I
3 know it's not true. So they were still together, up
4 until, I think '94, when at some point, in that
5 period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got
6 married, I think in '94.
7 I don't remember when they got married,
8 but her, she was his best friend and his everything,
9 he told me that he always wished that he had married
10 her and had a child with her.
11 And I know that they -- she was family for
12 him for his whole life. And I think even -- I'm not
13 sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is
14 true or not. When he came from -- back from Paris
15 and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the
16 plane.
17 Now, I think that either I read it in the
18 -- in the discovery that I received, or I saw it
19 somewhere. But even if she wasn't on the plane,
20 there must have been some email communication where
21 she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly
22 back.
23 One or the other, I don't know which one
24 is the correct version of that. But so they were
25 still obviously very close and remained throughout
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1 the time. In fact, he -- he was-- still saw her a
2 lot.
3 And so I also know now, which I didn't
4 know at the time, was that he saw lots of other
5 women. And I know that now, because I can see -- I
6 can see it from the flight logs and I know it now
7 because I can see from the emails.
8 TODD BLANCHE: So, you know from the
9 case --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, not from --
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- that what happened.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I didn't know --
13 TODD BLANCHE: You didn't know that along
14 the way.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I contemporaneously, I
16 absolutely did not know.
17 TODD BLANCHE: So, okay -- so just -- and
18 we're going to spend time on everything you're
19 talking about, but just to kind of close out the big
20 picture of your relationship.
21 So we're now in the late '90s, continue on
22 with, again, staying high level to the extent you
23 can, about your relationship with him.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So after -- so my
25 responsibilities increased with each acquisition that
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1 he had and each new project. So I believe the first
2 thing that he purchased after was the ranch in
3 New Mexico.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so what he had
6 tasked me with up until that, and I think that was
7 purchased in '94, if I'm right. So he had tasked me,
8 one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind,
9 I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every
10 state, but many states, to go look at real estate
11 property.
12 And so I know we went to Montana. I know
13 we went to Utah and it was -- it was to go look at
14 real estate. It was fun, to be honest.
15 And then I arranged for us to go to
16 New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico. And then I
17 don't remember how the ranch happened. I don't
18 remember that now, it's lost. And then he ended up
19 buying the ranch.
20 And I think, if I'm right, it came from --
21 well, the Kings who may have been the governor, I --
22 you know, bought the ranch. And then I had to deal
23 with that. Dealing with that was the extent of it.
24 The way that I thought of myself, or the
25 way that I think is the best way to explain how I
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1 view my role, was as a general manager. Because each
2 property, to me was like a -- a hotel.
3 So the ranch was very challenging, because
4 not only that, but it had BLM land, so to help
5 maintain your BLM, you have to have cattle and I love
6 animals.
7 And so the first thing, horses. And so I
8 wanted it, if you're going to have a ranch, I like
9 authenticity. And so I don't think you should have a
10 ranch if you're not going to have the things that
11 make it special.
12 TODD BLANCHE: So were you -- were you
13 paid by him along the way --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I --
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- during this time?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I became -- I became
17 salaried at some point.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- my memory is
20 that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That's
21 my memory. I may be wrong. And then with each -- as
22 it became obvious, because I kept thinking I was
23 going to go home; home being England. And -- but
24 it --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- and financially,
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1 you were not relying on him, the -- the $25,000 or
2 whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on
3 that money to live and his generosity to live or did
4 you have your own -- your own money.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there's a --
6 TODD BLANCHE: And again, I -- I want to
7 just make sure we're talking about that. Like
8 keeping it between like the late '90s, you know,
9 maybe, I guess into a little of the 2000s.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want to hit
11 something on the head right now. There's a
12 tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a
13 --
14 LEAH SAFFIAN: A trust fund.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. A trust
16 fund. I have never had a trust fund, at any time.
17 DAVID MARKUS: So how did you live, did
18 you live with -- with -- I mean, $25,000 is not
19 enough to live on.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. So I had -- during
21 this period of time, the secret -- secret, the
22 Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation
23 to my father's passing, and to establish whether I
24 had been involved in any way with his business or
25 with any shenanigans.
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1 I think -- I've told this story many
2 times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat
3 apocryphal, but I'll tell you what it -- my memory
4 is.
5 So I received a letter from them that said
6 about my business, and my memory may be apocryphal,
7 there was a PS that said (unintelligible), I had
8 nothing. There was no -- I was never involved in any
9 of his business, whatever, so I was free.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And were you -- so, but
11 your -- you know, obviously your -- your father and
12 your family had a lot of businesses. Did -- is it
13 because the money, whatever money or whatever equity
14 was in the businesses, just stayed with your other
15 family members?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there was no
17 money. So my father was never attached to money. He
18 was born a peasant, a real one. Dirt floor, no
19 shoes, no clothes -- some clothes, but not, you know,
20 sorry, I don't mean to say -- nothing.
21 And he never -- he was never into that. I
22 mean, there were things that he had his
23 extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane. So
24 obviously you need money for that. But there was no,
25 nothing else. And there was not a single penny that
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1 came to any of us, at any time, ever.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so when you
3 are talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the
4 '90s, you -- you're -- you're not -- you -- you're
5 very different financially. You -- you're very
6 different financially positioned than he is --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- meaning he's giving you
9 money, he's paying for your -- when you fly, he -- I
10 assume pays for your flights.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. So you -- you
13 -- I interrupted you when you were saying how you
14 were functioning as a general manager. You helped
15 with the New Mexico ranch.
16 So did -- did your role with him continue
17 like that for many years or for how long?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I continued -- in
19 2000 -- well, in -- by 1999, our relationship had
20 foundered. In --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Why?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well, two
23 reasons: We were never sleeping together again. So
24 we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full
25 sex. Sorry, just to be clear. Didn't mean that we
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1 didn't still share a bed bedroom sometimes or
2 whatever. He had another girlfriend.
3 TODD BLANCHE: He had what?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other girlfriends. I
5 definitively knew that it was over after 9/11,
6 actually, because we were both in New York and I
7 don't know, were you in New York on 9/11? I mean,
8 9/11 ...
9 And it was a scary time if you were in New
10 York. You didn't know, I didn't know, nobody knew
11 what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I
12 was in 65th Street, my house.
13 And he wouldn't see me at all. Asked me,
14 his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in hospital at
15 Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And
16 then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're
17 not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you're
18 never going to be there. So for me, that was the
19 line's end. And he had another English girlfriend
20 actually, from 2000.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Are you, though, still on
22 his -- are you still being paid by him at this point?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so go ahead.
25 So what -- what -- at that point, when you
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1 say you realized kind of it was over?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I mean, I'm
3 talking about the -- the -- I had had, there was a --
4 I had wanted to get married and have children.
5 And Epstein had encouraged me to believe
6 that that would -- I don't know about the --
7 certainly by the mid late '90s, I knew the marriage
8 part was never going to happen. I had believed that
9 maybe in '96, '97, '98 maybe, but then I realized it
10 wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a
11 child, which is what I had really wanted. And I
12 realized --
13 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so -- okay. So what
14 happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your
15 relationship with him?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Give or take, 2001.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we stopped having
19 physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't
20 friends. I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his
21 room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will,
22 just not sex. Sorry.
23 And I started dating.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I met someone that
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1 I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was
2 Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of
3 Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing
4 relationship that ended in -- went on until 2010, I
5 think. And I was with Ted from that time.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet him through
7 Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, indirectly,
9 I suppose you could say so. No, they'd never met. I
10 was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't -- I
11 was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my
12 friend, not Epstein's friend.
13 And Epstein had flown him and there was a
14 dinner and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess,
15 indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with
16 his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without
17 him. I had -- was not the --
18 DAVID MARKUS: Was Epstein on the plane
19 when you guys flew?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On that trip, yes.
21 Well, yes. They -- that, yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say the -- the
23 dinner was -- was where?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Hong Kong.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so the -- and
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1 you had flown over with -- so who was on the plane
2 for that trip? I don't mean everybody.
3 When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the
4 plane?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: You were on the plane?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Who else, that you can
9 remember? I'm not, you know, you only remember what
10 you remember.
11 DAVID MARKUS: Was President Clinton on
12 the plane?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Clinton. He would've
14 -- he would've had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason
15 Cooper, maybe the two.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And you -- and so why --
17 so -- so how do you meet -- so -- so why did you say
18 that's when you met him and that you met him through
19 Clinton?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, it was a -- I
21 don't think Ted would've been there, had it not been
22 a -- it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came
23 to be with President Clinton --
24 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not to be with
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1 Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense?
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's why I say that.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you're -- you're,
5 so in the time that you're dating, that you're with
6 him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein
7 during that time?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So his -- so it'd be
9 true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried
10 very hard to -- to keep me to working for him,
11 because this is a complex operator.
12 I'm not talking about anything untoward,
13 just the sheer size of the projects. I'm talking the
14 construction projects, the houses, the staff. It's
15 a -- it's a really significant job. And I ran all
16 the properties, the staff in the properties, the
17 management of the properties that -- and all the
18 construction.
19 And we're talking tens of millions of
20 dollars for the island alone. I can't remember what
21 the budget was for the construction on any given
22 year, it's gone.
23 But it -- it was -- these are very
24 significant projects. And so that was what I did.
25 And I managed the budgets. Well, not, I didn't

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1 manage the budgets, I oversaw the budgets. So I
2 would just make sure that if you said you bought an
3 air conditioning part, I saw an air conditioning part
4 and I could call the island manager.
5 Did you receive the Carrier, whatever, you
6 know.
7 TODD BLANCHE: When did Mr. Epstein
8 purchase the island?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say '96 or
10 '97, something like that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're going to
12 come back and spend more time on the money with --
13 with respect to Mr. Epstein and -- and his wealth.
14 But just so we can finish this, so in
15 2009, you end your relationship with Ted.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2009, 2010.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember if it
19 was '10.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So in that time
21 period, what happens next with -- as far as your
22 relationship with Mr. Epstein?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have one with
24 him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: You don't have one with
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1 him, like you don't see him or it's just a different
2 relationship?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see -- I maybe
4 saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I
5 certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe
6 twice. But I was not seeing him.
7 The only time that I was in touch with him
8 was when the things happened. Like things, I mean,
9 in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case
10 was filed and there was like rubbish that went out,
11 because I needed information.
12 Because I didn't know -- I didn't know
13 anything about what was happening and I needed his
14 help. A, to under- -- I -- I-- well, that doesn't
15 sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don't mean his
16 help. I meant to have answers, so that I had an
17 ability to defend myself, that's what I'm talking
18 about. I'm not talking any- --
19 TODD BLANCHE: So when does that
20 relationship change? So -- so you're working -- you
21 talked about when your -- the physical relationship
22 stopped and then you're still working for him, or
23 with him managing his properties and being -- serving
24 as like a general manager.
25 You then start your own relationship with
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1 another individual from -- with Ted from 2003 till
2 2009 or '10. At what point in that whole period is
3 there like more of a break, where you're no longer
4 acting as his general manager?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I wanted to
6 have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he
7 was clever. I -- I -- I suppose it would be true to
8 say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point,
9 as sort of family, if you will. Like someone I could
10 rely on.
11 And I should have had more confidence in
12 myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given
13 everything that had happened in my life, I thought
14 that it would -- and I saw how he was with other
15 people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable
16 with him, and I thought this would be -- and he
17 always said, I was like family.
18 So he worked hard to make -- maintain a
19 relationship with me. He was generous with me. He
20 let me use the plane, for instance, which was very
21 generous, he would check in with my mum. He did
22 things that were meaningful to me in that time.
23 And then, it may still not have worked,
24 but that his -- his mother, Paula, had been in a very
25 serious car crash. And I -- she had become sort of
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1 like a -- a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because
2 my mum wasn't there. I could -- I could look after
3 her the way that I would -- sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: It's all right.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The way that I
6 would've liked to look after my own mum. So I became
7 very close to his mother.
8 And she had been in a car crash and in
9 2004, I believe it -- it may have been 2005, I -- I
10 don't recall exactly. She took a -- her health took
11 a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked
12 me if I could look after her. And by looking after
13 her, that meant organizing her doctors, making sure
14 she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Where was she?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She lived in -- in a
17 retirement establishment in -- outside of Palm Beach,
18 outside of -- its West Palm. I want -- I was going
19 to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not
20 called that. I just don't remember what it's called.
21 But it was an old age -- it was a retirement home, if
22 you will.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Todd, I don't know, we've
24 been going for maybe about an hour now.
25 Do you think -- is this a good time to --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. So we'll
2 take a -- we'll take a break.
3 DAVID MARKUS: Yep.
4 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going
5 to take a break, the time is 10:56.
6 (Break at 10:56 a.m. to 11:07 a.m.)
7 SPENCER HORN: We're continuing the
8 proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is
9 11:07 a.m., on Thursday, July 24th.
10 TODD BLANCHE: All right. So just picking
11 up where we just stopped. So -- so you -- you have
12 basically a break. Well, not a break, that's the
13 wrong word, but your -- your relationship with
14 Mr. Maxwell [sic] -- professional and other changes
15 in 2003, '04?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I mean, and
17 over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm
18 with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And
19 then when the arrest -- well, let's go back.
20 When he -- whatever -- whatever happened
21 in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So when he's charged and
23 arrested in what we'll call the Florida
24 Investigations, that's what you're talking about?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I had -- I was not
3 in -- well --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Well, were you part of that
5 investigation?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did law enforcement
8 ever talk to you as part of that?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you, like, the feds
11 never talked to you --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- the FBI never talked to
14 you?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never even received
18 a phone call.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- did you -- so you didn't
20 receive a subpoena?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Did the state law
23 enforcement ever reach out to you?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
25 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, did the
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1 government, either state or federal, subpoena your
2 bank records or subpoena anything from your financial
3 life, during that time? During the -- that time?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not as far as I'm
5 aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it and I have
6 -- I have no idea about that, to be honest. But I'm
7 -- I'm not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe
8 you guys do things that I don't know.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So how did -- how did you
10 learn of that case? When Mr. Epstein was arrested,
11 or did you know that something was happening before
12 then?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the first thing
14 I knew was he had told me he was deciding to
15 redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn't
16 surprise me, it was like a rolling situation.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And, but by that time are
18 you doing -- are you -- like he tells you because he
19 wants your help or your relationship changed by this
20 time where you were no longer kind of acting his --
21 as his general manager?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I was -- I was
23 still around.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't gone. I was
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1 with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily -- if you
2 would ask me where he was in any given time, I'm not
3 sure I would've known then. I mean, it was, I -- I
4 felt like I suppose the relationship moved into sort
5 of like a long-term friend-family, you know, like --
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- like I felt he had
8 with Eva, if I'm honest.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So -- so he
10 says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach
11 house.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He -- he asked me
13 specifically which decorator he thinks I -- he should
14 use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators
15 and he was not very good with people. He was useless
16 at maintaining relationships with people who worked
17 for him, I'm not. So anyways, I recommended -- I
18 think I recommended. I can't be a hundred percent
19 sure, because it's been a long time, but I think I
20 recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Who?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mark Zeff --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I believe. And I
25 don't know why. I -- I don't remember. That's all
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1 lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his
2 mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of
3 all of that either.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I ended up in Palm
6 Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the
7 swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had
8 laid it all out over the house and various things,
9 and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my
10 memory of this.
11 It may also be that Ted and I were going
12 to Palm Beach, because Ted had a golf match or
13 something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
14 It wasn't solely -- I don't -- maybe that's not true
15 either. I don't know. So I --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's a, you
18 know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was
19 there. I don't know if that's part of that time --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead -- go ahead.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- or Ted went there
22 and left me. I don't know, something.
23 Anyway, I was there. No. That's not how
24 that went either. No. Anyway, at some point in that
25 time, I saw all the swatches, at some point in 2005,
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1 I think that was. And then I believe, or I don't
2 remember. I -- I think I got a phone call actually.
3 I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call
4 that there was a police at his house or something.
5 There was a --
6 TODD BLANCHE: And would you have gotten a
7 phone call from him or you think you were just told
8 by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't
9 -- or don't you remember?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely not him.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it would've
13 been the houseman.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So when that happens,
15 whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you
16 know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I didn't even
18 know what that -- I didn't even understand.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a
21 context for that.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was like, I didn't
24 even know -- I -- I didn't know.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So after --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't -- I
2 didn't -- I didn't -- I'm not sure even what I
3 thought. I was like, that's weird.
4 TODD BLANCHE: -- so after he -- after you
5 find out about it, what happens with your
6 relationship with him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I asked him. I asked
8 him what was going on --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and he said, I --
11 I -- not to worry. Nothing, nothing, taking care.
12 Don't worry about it (indiscernible) and then it all
13 went quiet. I didn't -- he didn't say, he didn't
14 share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with
15 Ted and I really just --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Did he tell you -- well,
17 why don't we come back to more specifics around that
18 time period in a few minutes --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- I want to just finish
21 this opening part.
22 So that case goes on, ultimately it ends.
23 What -- what -- what was your relationship like with
24 him during that case, when he goes, you know, when
25 he -- when he was sentenced.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked -- he -- he
2 -- he told me, he said, "Listen. I'm going to jail."
3 I was like, "Okay." And he goes, "I would like you
4 to stay on board to manage the properties, the
5 animals, this and that, and just stay put and I'll
6 continue to pay you. In case there's any emergency,
7 I don't trust anyone." And I was like, "Okay."
8 TODD BLANCHE: Well, when you said
9 continue to pay, had he con--- has he --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He had never stopped
11 paying me.
12 TODD BLANCHE: He never stopped paying
13 you. So even when your relationship changes, you're
14 getting -- does the amount increase from the $25,000
15 or so a year from the beginning? Like how much are
16 you getting paid yearly?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it ended -- at
18 the time, well, we had different payment structures
19 and I'm happy to explain how that was, but I think
20 salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a
21 quarter of a million a year.
22 TODD BLANCHE: How much?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Quarter of a million.
24 $250,000.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And when -- and when did it
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1 end? When was that that it stopped?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2008, or '09.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '09. When did he come
5 out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So, and over the
7 years, it increased from what you said was you
8 thought about $25,000 to $250,000. That's between
9 like '90, early '90s until 2009 or '10, whenever he
10 stopped; is that right?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes -- yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: And how were you paid?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: W2.
14 TODD BLANCHE: W2 from which -- from what
15 company? Or do you --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He, like I -- he just
17 moved me around over to this company, that, I didn't
18 care --
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I didn't care
21 and I didn't think that -- I didn't understand any
22 rhyme or reason, it doesn't, I just, you know,
23 whatever --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so maybe --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when he's going to go
2 to jail, he says, "Can you stay around and manage
3 everything."
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And do you do that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then -- and then
8 we'll come back to that.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not manage
10 everything, no. I mean there are other people at
11 this point. My specific role then was very, very
12 diminished.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I reviewed the bill
15 structure that came from the constructions, that were
16 still made, the island --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and wherever else I
19 was going, Paris at this point, because I speak
20 French, I'm fluent in French.
21 And also my relationship with the French
22 decorator was critical to him. And in the French
23 component part of -- of that aspect, that was really
24 vital and so you would have had to find someone who
25 was -- well, actually, and the Spanish trilingual,
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1 you would've had to find someone who was trilingual
2 to -- and that he trusted --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to manage, not
5 steal from him.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so when he gets
7 out of jail, between that time 2009 or '10, and 2019,
8 what's your relationship like with -- with
9 Mr. Epstein?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Almost nonexistent.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Why?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I had just moved
13 on and I just didn't want to have anything to -- I
14 didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be
15 associated with ...
16 TODD BLANCHE: So do you recall -- when
17 you say "almost non-existent," does that mean --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It doesn't mean it --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it some phone calls,
20 some visits --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I definitely.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- some trips, or what does
23 it mean?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- I don't -- I
25 don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't -- I
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1 don't think so.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Where were you living
3 during that time period? Or was it --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which time period?
5 TODD BLANCHE: Between 2009, '10 and 2019?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was back in
7 New York.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you had no -- so
9 when you -- so -- so your -- you had phone calls with
10 him on occasion?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Well, I
12 certainly did when it -- whenever there was any legal
13 drama or any like, serious press attention, I always
14 called him to try and find out what was going on.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. And then --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did email him at
17 that time for those types of details. It was like,
18 what do I do? What, I mean, I was like ...
19 TODD BLANCHE: And -- and then when he's
20 charged in New York federally --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- how did you learn about
23 that case?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the press.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And had you, as far as you
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1 know, been contacted by law enforcement before his
2 arrest?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wasn't in an
4 indictment.
5 TODD BLANCHE: No. I know that, but even
6 as a witness or -- or asking you if you would give
7 documents or materials?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had never -- up
9 until he -- up until when my lawyers said that, I
10 don't even know. I -- I had no knowledge of them
11 being interested in me, honestly. I don't -- I want
12 to say until he had died.
13 Now I know that my lawyers were in touch
14 with the Southern District of New York at some point
15 after his arrest. I'm pretty sure that had to have
16 happened, right --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I -- my
19 understanding is that they had not shown any
20 interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I
21 believe, and --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Went to see him meaning
23 Mr. Epstein?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, them. So Southern
25 District of New York.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. The Southern
2 District of New York. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. And that they
4 had been in regular, in touch with him and --
5 TODD BLANCHE: But now you're talking
6 about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about
7 before he died?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, I --
9 TODD BLANCHE: If you can remember.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Easily verifiable. I
11 -- my memory is that they were in touch with him when
12 he was arrested.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if
15 anything happened until after his death, then after
16 that.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think they saw
19 them -- met with them, Southern District of New York
20 I'm talking about now, until after he died. I know
21 that they were in regular telephone contact with them
22 and that my lawyers believed that they had been told
23 that there was no interest in me --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and were absolutely
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1 stunned when I was arrested. But maybe stunned is
2 too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So let's -- okay.
4 So that's -- that's -- was a long description of --
5 of what was a very long life and that was very
6 helpful. So I want to go back and talk more
7 specifically now about particular areas, and, but
8 that was a -- a very helpful kind of foundation
9 for -- for us.
10 The first -- the first thing I want to
11 talk about, you talked about earlier on, about
12 Mr. Epstein's financial success. What -- you know,
13 do you know how he -- when you first meet him, at
14 some point you say, "I got this place for you to
15 rent, you can't afford it." And he laughs at you and
16 says, "Yes. I can."
17 What did you learn about his wealth and
18 how he was -- and how he accumulated his money?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can tell you what he
20 told me.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I know that he
23 was hired from working at a private school whose name
24 eludes me at this point.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Dalton.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Dalton. He was
2 working at Dalton, he was a math teacher. And he
3 met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure. He met
4 someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very
5 good at math. And I believe that he then worked on
6 creating a trading of, oh, my gosh.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Just describe it. It's
8 okay. Go ahead.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He came -- came up
10 with some new type of trading system. Not -- not a
11 system so much, but as a -- as a -- as a --as
12 vehicle. A trading vehicle.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just escaping
15 right now.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And this is while -- while
17 he was working at -- at Bear Stearns?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At Bear Stearns. Yes.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And, well --
21 TODD BLANCHE: And was this before you met
22 him?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So this is what he told
25 you.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: What you learned?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. This is what he
4 told me --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- himself.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- and then
8 eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know
9 that to be true or no? J. Epstein & Company. You
10 ever heard of that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's, yeah.
12 Yes. So hang on a minute. So I -- this I did not
13 know, but this I have subsequently learned --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is that he had some
16 problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was
17 some, I don't know, disagreement. He wasn't fired,
18 because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace
19 and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but
20 they were working with him and he ran -- he had cli-
21 -- money at Bear Stearns, and --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- his money, his
24 client's money. We'll -- I'll come to that.
25 But he started -- he told me himself that
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1 he started a business where he looked for stolen
2 money. So if somebody -- let's see. I'm trying to
3 think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't
4 think of anything, I've been with -- not great --
5 I'll -- I'll give it to you.
6 So let's say you have El Chapo, oh God, I
7 don't know where he comes from. But anyway, we've
8 got El Chapo. And El Chapo's laundering money or
9 still -- he's working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he
10 steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it
11 to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the
12 Sinaloa, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just
13 --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. I
15 understand.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just coming up with
17 something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to
18 Epstein, "Can you track down my billion dollars that,
19 the car- -- the other cartel stole from me?" And
20 Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will
21 take a portion of the money that was stolen at a fee
22 and give back the remainder. That would be on a
23 percentage basis.
24 TODD BLANCHE: No. But like what you just
25 described, which I appreciate what you said, a
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1 hypothetical --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the -- please,
3 that was completely hypothetical.
4 TODD BLANCHE: -- but that -- but that
5 would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels
6 stealing from each other.
7 Practically speaking, did -- he was a --
8 more of a businessman, correct?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So here's how I think
10 that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was
11 always you -- you -- always to the girls. I guess
12 there was a girl whose name will come back to me,
13 maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know,
14 maybe. There's a woman --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's always a
17 woman. And he -- she was the daughter of a
18 billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire,
19 whoever his --whatever his name was, had had some
20 money stolen. And for some reason this woman
21 introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how
22 that business started. That's what I remember.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And is that something he
24 told you about or something that happened while you
25 knew him?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Something he told
2 me before I met him.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you meet him
4 and -- and once you're part of his life in the early
5 to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you
6 see? He -- does he have clients? Does he have rich
7 clients? Does he have famous clients? And -- and
8 how -- and what -- if he does have clients, what
9 service is he providing them?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He does have -- well,
11 obviously there's the one very famous client that
12 everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. That was
13 a very important client to him. And he -- I think
14 it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine --
15 what I imagine, know -- would I know to be true about
16 what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that
17 I'll be improvising --
18 TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I want to just make
22 you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business
23 world, except tangentially and obviously. So what
24 I'm talking about is I -- what I observed or what I
25 overheard or what I saw within the business, but I
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1 wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or
2 anything like that. So it's separate.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah. I understand.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with Les, for
7 instance, it was really all encompassing. It could
8 go from the structure of the business. So he
9 would -- he structured or restructured The Limited.
10 I know that, and I'll come back to that
11 because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was
12 in business meetings with them on the plane when they
13 were there. So I could observe and I could hear some
14 of this.
15 And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly
16 business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to
17 be able to at least have some knowledge of what was
18 happening.
19 All right. So then he restructured the
20 business. He restructured his entire personal
21 finances, and would also handle all of the investment
22 strategy. I don't know if it was -- if it was a
23 hundred percent --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Wexner is what you're
25 saying?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Yes. All --
2 this is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
3 So let's say you had a billion dollars to
4 invest. So you would, you know, in people's normal
5 investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some
6 T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies
7 would be much more sophisticated than that.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And so just staying with
9 Mr. Wexner. Does -- from what you heard or saw, is
10 Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so --
11 so there would be a deal and he would be paid or
12 was -- did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
13 Was he a business partner? Like how did you
14 understand him to be paid?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was more ?
16 la carte. So let's say this is a conversation I
17 actually -- Epstein told me. So all -- illustrated
18 for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would
19 take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He
20 wouldn't have $5 billion back, and he would take --
21 TODD BLANCHE: When you say you think
22 that, is that because you heard him talking about
23 that or you -- you ...
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It would be a
25 combination of both. He certainly told me that and I
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1 heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't --
2 sorry.
3 TODD BLANCHE: No -- no. Go ahead.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- was there -- did --
6 did he give -- did Mr. Wexner gift a property in
7 New York to Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we're talking about
9 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal
10 was, because, again, I'm not part of his business
11 thing, but I think what happened would be that, let's
12 say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services,
13 $100 million or whatever it was. He could have
14 traded that against the property.
15 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know that that
16 happened or that's -- are you -- are you kind of --
17 do you remember whether there was conversations about
18 that or are you just thinking that could be one way
19 that it happened?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure. And I'm
21 not trying to be -- I just don't remember if that's
22 something I know or if that's something that I
23 remember, or if it's something that I subsequently
24 know. I believe -- I believe that to be what
25 happened, but I don't want to tell you that I have --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Wexner and
4 Mr. Epstein -- are you aware of they -- of their
5 falling out that they ultimately had?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- I wasn't
7 there and I don't know how it happened. I only know
8 what Les has said in the press.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So you only know about
10 their, you know, their falling out or whatever you
11 want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not
12 from any firsthand knowledge? You did -- you weren't
13 there, you weren't part of that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
16 Steven Hoffenberg?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Only from the press.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so you don't
19 know anything about whatever business relationship
20 they may have had, Mr. Epstein --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never spoke about him,
22 never mentioned it. I -- I only learned about that,
23 whatever that is, even -- I don't even know what the
24 truth is of that story, from the press.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How about Leon Black?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I did meet Leon.
2 I do know Leon.
3 TODD BLANCHE: When do you remember -- and
4 again, I know we're talking about a very long time
5 ago, but do you remember approximately when you met
6 him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I could have met Leon,
8 not really -- so I might have met him, nothing to do,
9 because Leon Black is very good friends with other
10 friends of mine. I would've met him, when I say
11 socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein
12 became really good friends, I don't -- I'm not sure.
13 TODD BLANCHE: But not through you, as far
14 as you recall?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not through me as
16 far as I know. No. I -- in fact, I'm -- I'm sure
17 that's not through me.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know what kind of
19 work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the
20 years?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
22 for Wexner.
23 TODD BLANCHE: So we just talked about two
24 individuals. And again, I know we're talking about
25 a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.
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1 How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein
2 have?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But why don't I just
4 give you the names that I remember and that's --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Why won't I just give
7 you the names.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Do you want the names?
10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. Go ahead.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Elizabeth Johnson --
12 Johnson & Johnson.
13 TODD BLANCHE: When did -- as far as you
14 know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson
15 and Mr. Epstein start?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '90s. '90 -- I
17 don't -- I -- '95, '96. '90s.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So during the time period?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. We're talking
20 '90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was
21 around.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And how did the
23 relationship start?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how he
25 became that friendly where he ended up managing her
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1 money, I wasn't there. I mean, he -- I really had a
2 separate life. We really had separate lives --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- except where they
5 synced.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But it wasn't from --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It wasn't from me.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- from you?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. It was not.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what's your
11 understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for
12 Ms. Johnson?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
14 for Wexner. And when I -- and you have to
15 understand, it -- it went down to, in tiny details.
16 So I remember this -- I remember, this is an actual
17 memory, that he would make the contracts for the
18 maids, for the people who worked in their homes.
19 TODD BLANCHE: So he would assist his
20 clients, at times, with -- you're saying with even
21 small things like contractual relations with --
22 with --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He said no detail was
24 too small, because everything that affected how they
25 lived and how they managed their life, was something
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1 that he felt he was -- if they want, he would be
2 responsible for, to make sure that the contract -- so
3 that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn't come
4 back and sue you or if that -- that sort of ...
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So Mr. Black,
6 Mr. Werner [sic] -- Ms. Johnson. Who else?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the name of the
8 woman from Ohio (inaudible).
9 TODD BLANCHE: Know someone named
10 Jes Staley.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I do know Jes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was at Morgan
14 Stanley and at Barclays.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What do -- do you know
16 whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not a -- not a
18 physical one.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Well --
20 DAVID MARKUS: Business one.
21 TODD BLANCHE: -- I didn't suggest.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just --
23 TODD BLANCHE: No. I'm saying a -- a
24 relationship in the broadest sense of word; business,
25 personal --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- both. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Both.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And do you know when
5 they met?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- no. I don't
7 know when they met. But you can time it. Well, I
8 don't know that you can. No. I don't know.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So, but what was the nature
10 of their relationship, as far as you know?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think they were
12 friends and I think that they were business partners.
13 Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were --
14 they did business together.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So did you -- again, I want
16 to stay focused on the time where you were the most
17 involved in his life, so --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The '90s.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- the early '90s through
20 early 2000s.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the beginning --
22 beginning of the 2000s, yes.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you -- so we
24 talked about four people, so --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There's more.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- were there more? Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. There were
3 more. There was a lady whose name I just can't --
4 can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: (Indiscernible)
7 Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
8 TODD BLANCHE: What book are you using?
9 What is that?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wrote some notes for
11 the meeting.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Great. Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is that alright?
14 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's fine. I just
15 was curious what -- what we're looking at.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Not the birthday book.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not the birthday
19 book. No. We are going to come to that, I'm sure.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. I wrote
22 down some names because I tried to make -- I just
23 want you to understand my -- my memory's not as good
24 as it was, because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in
25 the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide
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1 watch for almost two years, which meant that they
2 woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And
3 it's -- it really did affect my ability to ...
4 TODD BLANCHE: Understand.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I'm not --
8 TODD BLANCHE: So you've taken some notes
9 in anticipation --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just made some names
11 in -- in advance for this --
12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So go ahead.
13 So --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're happy to
15 look at them as well, if you want.
16 TODD BLANCHE: No. Go -- go ahead.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Oh, well, funny
18 you say, first two names. One is Wexner, two is
19 Staley, three is Leon Black.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Glenn Dubin was a
22 client.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Eva Dubin's husband.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What was their, I

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1 mean, if you can -- do you know when -- about when
2 that relationship started?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Whenever -- well,
4 wouldn't have been before they got married, for sure.
5 So if you're going to start -- you're going to date
6 that from wherever that was.
7 And then Epstein was heavily involved with
8 Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of
9 Highbridge to JP Morgan.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
11 Eva Dubin. Yep.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. You're only
13 looking for clients, so, all right. There's a
14 woman -- well he -- there's a woman in Ohio. I just
15 can't think of her name, but it will -- I tried to
16 remember it yesterday and I can't.
17 DAVID MARKUS: So this is a good thing.
18 Like, you know, as you think of things, write it
19 down, and if they have any other names, they'll ask
20 you. But you --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Just --
23 DAVID MARKUS: -- don't -- don't force it
24 out. So -- so you'll have time to think about this,
25 especially today, this afternoon, overnight --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
2 DAVID MARKUS: -- because we'll probably
3 meet tomorrow.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But you can find them.
5 I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So the woman in Ohio who's
7 wealthy, that you worked with.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And well, you can
9 identify her yourself because she had the largest
10 Klein painting. That was huge. So you can find her,
11 because it'll be in a museum.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that's her.
14 TODD BLANCHE: And so he -- that was one
15 of Mr. Epstein's clients?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: She was one of
18 Mr. client -- Mr. Epstein's clients as well?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Who else?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I think that
22 there was people, other people that he would, like,
23 assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who
24 became Lynn de Rothschild. She'll deny it and she
25 has, but she -- she can't.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say "help,"
2 the same help in business or what help?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so-- so -- I
4 have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped
5 her financially. Her husband was the controller of
6 New York. So, but I don't -- again, I'm not inside
7 his business, but he would've -- his -- his -- this
8 notion that he black -- blackmailed men or we don't
9 really have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman
10 and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or
11 what -- I don't believe that to be true.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Why?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry?
14 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- so you say
15 you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you
16 think that.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Just from -- I know you've
19 been talking about it, that he was very -- he was
20 very conscientious. He was very good at math. He
21 was -- took, paid a lot of attention to his clients,
22 but -- but yes. You're right. There's allegations
23 of -- of blackmail or also that -- that there was
24 some level of -- of fraud involved in what he did,
25 and you don't believe it. Why do you -- why do you
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1 say that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- let me
3 rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it.
4 What I saw or what I felt when I -- his -- I ran that
5 office. I mean, ran. I didn't -- I was responsible
6 for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers,
7 there were accountants. I never heard him -- I never
8 -- wit- -- I never felt anything, I don't know, icky.
9 DAVID MARKUS: Did -- did you ever see him
10 blackmail a --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
12 DAVID MARKUS: -- a client?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
14 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see him
15 blackmail a -- an -- a friend or an acquaintance?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Well, so I think when folks
19 talk about block -- blackmail, and we can talk about
20 -- sorry about that.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
22 TODD BLANCHE: We can talk about that now.
23 There are a lot of allegations about him, which
24 we'll -- which we should talk about and we can do
25 that now. And the fact that he abused young women.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Full stop. Okay. Which
3 means, the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been
4 widely reported, is that -- that he would cause young
5 women in high school to be recruited to come to his
6 house and give him massages. And a part of -- and
7 the -- and the -- and as part of that, he would
8 sexually abuse them, okay?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to talk about
11 that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question
12 is whether you're aware of any time, that any of the
13 individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about
14 others, received massages from women who were under
15 18 or may have been under 18.
16 And that whether there was any sexual
17 assaults or sexual contact between any of these
18 people and those masseuses, which would've allowed
19 then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and
20 say, "You have to continue to work with me or you
21 have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the
22 world that -- that -- that you did this."
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I -- I think
24 this is a really good place to start with how this
25 story began.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So even, let's assume
3 that that premise is correct, that he was doing that
4 and he was going to tell everybody, going to say,
5 "oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with
6 an underage girl." If you don't have a video or
7 photograph, photographic evidence, because I -- I'm
8 not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well,
9 maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take
10 that seriously.
11 So you have to have something to say,
12 "Hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you
13 doing terrible things and you need to." So I built
14 those houses, many of them. I decorated those
15 houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I
16 never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any
17 type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance.
18 And I'll define that for you.
19 Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom,
20 in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
21 TODD BLANCHE: In a room where there were
22 massages given?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Inappropriate. I
24 would say I would define "appropriate" surveillance
25 to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as
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1 in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else
2 would be grotesque.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So I just want to come back
4 to -- I know I'm just hopefully stating the obvious,
5 but when you say "the houses," you're talking about
6 his New York --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- brownstone?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the
11 island in -- in the Caribbean?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the
14 residence in Palm Beach?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And you're talking about
17 the ranch in New Mexico?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Anywhere else?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Paris.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And in Paris. And so --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the plane. I saw
23 some ridiculous thing with the plane --
24 TODD BLANCHE: And the plane. Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was what we're
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1 doing. Yes. I didn't --
2 TODD BLANCHE: So --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't hire any
4 electrician on the plane. Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- so unequivocally,
6 unequivocally from what you know, and you only know
7 what you know --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I only know what I
9 know.
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- but from what you know,
11 you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera
12 or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his
13 residences?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So even the appropriate
16 cameras that you just talked about, which would be
17 kind of exterior security cameras, did you know
18 whether there was any cameras, that you're aware of,
19 inside any of the locations?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never, with one
21 exception.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What's the
23 exception?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The exception is
25 Palm Beach.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason -- so
3 in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He
4 noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase,
5 call it his briefcase. And he called in the
6 Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police
7 installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Where was that? Do you
9 remember?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At his desk in -- so
11 the house on the ground floor was -- he had a desk,
12 sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think
13 there was another camera. I think there were two or
14 maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground
15 floor, wherever he may have had -- maybe he had
16 another office in the cabana. There may have been a
17 camera there.
18 TODD BLANCHE: When was this? I'm not
19 looking for an exact date, but what time period are
20 you thinking about when you say this?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2003. I think I can
22 date it for you precisely, actually, 2003. I'm
23 pretty firm on that date.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can be firm
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1 because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end
2 of 2002 and he was the thief.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So aside from law
4 enforcement installing a camera, to try to catch
5 somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not
6 aware of any cameras at the island -- no. Sorry.
7 You're -- just so we record it because ...
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry -- sorry --
9 sorry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay. You were
11 nodding your head no.
12 So what about --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No cameras anywhere,
14 outside of, possibly, things that would -- I would
15 consider -- myself, I would consider normal. So the
16 garage gate, something like that, a front door.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Outside, like security
18 cameras?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Security cameras.
20 TODD BLANCHE: No. I -- I --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there were cameras
22 inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the
23 physical plant, because it was a commercial building.
24 So you had the whole -- that's a real thing there.
25 It's a commercial building.
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1 And there were -- there was one camera on
2 the -- on the front door, internal, from the internal
3 that did the front door, as I recall. But I -- there
4 were no other cameras inside the house.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- how about
6 photographs. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or
7 anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in
8 compromising positions with women or with -- or with
9 anybody?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear, when you
12 were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was
13 having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of
14 blackmailing them or of trying to extort them,
15 because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
17 TODD BLANCHE: There have been -- and --
18 and you -- you -- in the discovery you got in the
19 New York case, okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And in the civil cases that
22 you've been part of --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- associated with
25 Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been
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1 told that video exists, like what we're talking
2 about, or photos were taken that -- that were
3 compromising?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in the -- in both
5 of those, I never received no pictures or anything
6 from the civil case.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But in the criminal
9 case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women
10 and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw
11 binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible). I
12 never saw any, well, I don't know -- I don't know how
13 old some of these women were. There were definitely
14 some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs
15 of them in -- in -- without clothing.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And in that -- in those
17 photographs, were -- the victims that were
18 photographed, were there any of the people you've
19 talked about? Like, were there men with the victims
20 or were they just photographs of the victims?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There was no men with
22 these pictures. There was no client of his with
23 those pictures. They would be standalone, for want
24 of a better word, like modeling shots. If you
25 were -- if you -- if you were, I don't know.
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1 DAVID MARKUS: Pictures that Epstein had
2 with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and
3 the girls.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- I understand you
6 said you got those in the discovery. Did you know
7 those -- those pictures -- pictures like that
8 existed?
9 So right now I'm talking about photographs
10 of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein
11 had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you
12 know that those photos existed before you got them in
13 discovery?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some of them,
15 absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of
16 these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or
17 whatever.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some pictures I've
20 simply never seen before. I mean, there was -- I --
21 I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had,
22 some of them I hadn't, I mean.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so -- so you're
24 right, and I -- I accept that having video or
25 photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a
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1 compromising position, would be good blackmail.
2 But -- so separate -- putting aside what
3 you've said about the fact that you don't know of any
4 existence of those, did you observe, over the years,
5 the folks we're talking about, or others which we can
6 talk about, getting massages from young women?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I just -- I
8 think it's really helpful to understand a few things
9 that has been missed in this whole mishigas.
10 DAVID MARKUS: That's a technical term.
11 TODD BLANCHE: I'll look it up later.
12 Go ahead.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought about this
14 obviously a lot and I've given it --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- some -- so this is
17 the benefit of -- some benefit of what I saw and some
18 benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's
19 sake.
20 I think -- I just want to say for the
21 record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of,
22 not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm
23 not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I
24 don't want to, and I don't think he requires, nor
25 deserves any type of protection or -- from me in any
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1 way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So
2 there's that.
3 However, the man I met and the man he
4 became, I believe that there is a progression, and I
5 don't think that the man I met is the man that he
6 became. I believe he became that man over a period
7 of time.
8 Now we can discuss anything you want and
9 I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody
10 who has an interest, however you define that, in
11 underage people is obviously someone who is unwell.
12 But I don't think that you wake up one day and you
13 start doing what he's accused of. I think this is
14 something that you develop or you progress to. I --
15 I think, because --
16 DAVID MARKUS: Ghislaine, before -- before
17 you get into all that, let's answer the top line
18 question and then get into it.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The top line
20 question is?
21 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see any of
22 these people with underage women?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No -- no. I -- so the
24 reason I'm saying that is not -- is not to avoid that
25 question, but it's because by the time, when you were
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1 talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there.
2 I -- there's that description. I think that this,
3 what you were talking about is a later version.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- is that?
6 TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and
7 I do want to talk -- I'm not --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it's just I'm -- I
9 think you need to separate the periods of time --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it --
12 this -- one of the things that was definitely missing
13 in my trial, and definitely missing from the
14 narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened
15 and he was always but -- no. I don't -- I don't
16 believe that to be true.
17 TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that --
18 that's -- that's fine. And I do want to talk about
19 that. I'm not -- I'm not pushing that away. I'm
20 just putting it aside for a moment.
21 What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly,
22 what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one
23 thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what --
24 right now what I want to understand is -- is whether
25 one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his
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1 clients or -- or took care of them, or some would say
2 blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to
3 interact with -- with women, underage or not.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the
5 '90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were
6 people who were in their 20s or 30s.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so. Understand that.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have -- so he
9 would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and
10 female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been
11 discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were
12 men as well as women.
13 And so if he would travel, and I can show
14 them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record,
15 so you could see that there really were men that were
16 also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga
17 with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this
18 one? But they would be in their late 20s and
19 professional masseuses.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there's a
22 distinction.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about
24 actual individuals here. But -- and I understand the
25 distinction between somebody who's an adult and --
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1 and -- and someone who's underage.
2 But even with somebody who's an adult, did
3 you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that,
4 whether it's a client or somebody else?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a -- with a --
6 I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying
7 with him and you had a massage that -- he would often
8 travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you
9 like a massage? And he did do that, yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or
11 anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards,
12 to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual
13 contact?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So meaning -- and then
16 coming back to the blackmail issue.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah.
18 TODD BLANCHE: There's nothing wrong with
19 getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you
20 know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a
21 masseuse. There's -- I'm not quibbling with that.
22 But my question is that there's a lot of
23 accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell,
24 I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was
25 through this idea of blackmail.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never --
2 TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young -- young
3 women and -- and is a crime. Children are -- is a
4 crime.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age
7 of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or
8 whomever to get massages and have inappropriate
9 sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a
10 separate issue. Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but
11 did you ever know him to do that?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did
13 absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I
14 never -- I never heard that. I never -- no one -- in
15 the entire time I was with him or friends with him,
16 or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to
17 me and said that anything inappropriate happened or
18 was upset by -- I never saw a tear. I never saw ever
19 any of that.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, "No one
21 reported to me," meaning like the masseuses --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
23 TODD BLANCHE: -- or any of the house
24 staff --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
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1 DAVID MARKUS: Or the clients.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- or the clients
3 themselves?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so let's --
6 again, I want to stay -- and -- and coming back now
7 to what you were talking about a moment ago with
8 Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or -- or -- or
9 getting worse. So just staying within the '90s.
10 What role -- what did -- what role did you
11 have or what did you observe -- which are two
12 different issues, but both important -- with respect
13 to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess,
14 Palm Beach or to travel, or eventually New Mexico.
15 What role did you have in that?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me to find
17 masseuses for him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me if I could
20 find him masseuses.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Like, as part of --
22 like you said, you were his general manager. As part
23 of all your -- your duties, that was one of them?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did do that. So
25 the first person I believe that I introduced him to
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1 as a masseuse was somebody called . She
2 was, I don't know, mid, late 20s. Professional
3 masseuse.
4 TODD BLANCHE: And was this something that
5 happened early on in your relationship or -- and
6 again, I know we're talking about the '90s, but are
7 we talking about early '90s or is this later on?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in terms of
9 massage, I am a -- I have a lot of injuries. I do a
10 lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious
11 accidents, and walk without any lameness, because of
12 physical therapy and massage. I've -- that to me is
13 a very -- it's medicinal for me.
14 So Epstein, whatever his massage
15 situation, whatever -- he loved massage. And if I
16 met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or
17 masseur, I introduced them.
18 And he -- because I got them, and he asked
19 me if I did, and I said yes. And that's -- I'm
20 pretty sure that would've -- well, I don't remember.
21 '93, '92, from the beginning.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so go ahead. So then
23 what happens over the next, you know, like there's
24 been -- there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I
25 guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting,
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1 about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort
2 that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and
3 others, to try to find more and more masseuses.
4 What -- is that -- is that true, and what
5 role did you have in that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was partially
7 true.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it is true that I
10 found masseuses and he became more insistent. He --
11 he -- he liked new all the time. He got bored. So
12 he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say,
13 find me a new masseuse.
14 I am the entire opposite. If I find
15 someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, I
16 don't want new. He would drive for new. So that is
17 true.
18 And in my effort to find them, I would go
19 to massage spas, like legitimate spas. Not -- we're
20 not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.
21 So -- and I -- if I got a massage from
22 somebody in a spa, that was -- I liked -- I liked, I
23 asked them if they would do home visits. If they
24 said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and
25 he would see if he liked them or not. But these were
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1 people who worked in spas. I never, ever checked
2 their age and I never checked their credentials. I
3 never asked for a certificate.
4 TODD BLANCHE: What --
5 DAVID MARKUS: But just to be clear, you
6 never thought anybody was under 18?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never crossed -- I
8 never -- no. That was never my -- that was never a
9 drive.
10 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what did you know
11 at the time about him, Mr. Epstein, requiring
12 masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to
13 either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be
14 there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that.
15 And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year
16 period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate,
17 it's a very broad question. So answer it in a way
18 that, you know, addresses what you've been charged
19 with doing, but also what's been said about you.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I don't --
21 the '90s, I don't think that I ever thought -- that
22 never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I
23 thought about that in those contexts at all, until
24 his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe
25 the -- the subject of the -- the question that you're
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1 asking me, I believe started in the 2000s.
2 TODD BLANCHE: In the 2000 time period?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 2000.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- why do you
5 think --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2000.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Like what -- what in your
8 mind makes you think that that's the time that it
9 started?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think because in
11 December of 2001, he met And I
12 think was responsible for that in
13 its entirety.
14 And the reason I believe that, so this --
15 she -- she was a self-confessed having been sexually
16 abused as a young girl, and was trained -- her words
17 I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of
18 whatever that is, the sex program by a man called Ron
19 Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I
20 believe, or 15, I don't know.
21 And in her book describes him training her
22 to be what every man wants in all its manners,
23 fellatio and everything else. I believe that then
24 what happened was that he met her, and she came as a
25 masseuse to his house, in December of 2001 is when I
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1 think it started.
2 Now, what their relationship was or what
3 happened with them in that early period of time, I
4 cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and
5 she started to travel with him at that time period.
6 I believe -- I know, then, what happened
7 was that she -- when she first started to see him or
8 first came into his orbit as his masseuse or
9 whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing
10 an engagement ring, and was living with her fianc?.
11 She broke up after a few months, with her
12 fianc?, and took up with the local drug dealer. So
13 let's say after four or five months of -- in the time
14 period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say we're
15 now May, June of 2002 or is it 2000. I can't
16 remember.
17 From whenever she hits the -- whatever
18 that is if that's 2000. I think it's 2000. I'm
19 sorry. I think it's when she met him. December of
20 2000. So -- so then you go through -- I don't
21 remember. You'll have to look.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I'm not holding you
23 to exact dates. I'm not --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, I'm just
25 trying to -- I'm giving the --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- I appreciate.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So then I think -- so
3 she -- she takes up with the local drug dealer and
4 she becomes druggie, druggie. Like, you know, how
5 druggies -- well, maybe you don't. I live with a lot
6 in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable
7 than normal.
8 And at some point, she's now working
9 somewhere else. He stopped seeing her, because he
10 doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that
11 not seeing her lasted five or six months. And in
12 that period of time, she got arrested for theft, and
13 she had a warrant out for her arrest.
14 Now, this I've pieced together because
15 this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein
16 to -- to have help avoiding the warrant for her
17 arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage
18 therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This
19 is the bit that I extrapolated.
20 In the period of time from when she came
21 back to when she left, he asked her to replace
22 herself as his masseuse or whatever -- whatever she
23 was doing, and she brought the first replacement for
24 her. That would've been one of the accusers in my
25 case, I think, would've been DOJ REDACTION .
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1 And that -- and then everyone who came
2 subsequent to or simultaneously, if she
3 wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone -- every
4 single person who came to his house, came through
5 and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever
6 else underneath her. And that is how it started.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So before her --
8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Tony Figueroa.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Tony Figueroa is her
10 boyfriend.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Before her -- so now going
12 back in the '90s. You don't believe that Mr. Epstein
13 was abusing masseuses?
14 DAVID MARKUS: Underage?
15 TODD BLANCHE: Or over age? I mean, I
16 think -- well, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense
17 of word, because I'm assuming that you -- you --
18 you -- you -- you -- you said that you have no idea
19 of the year -- you-- you always assumed the masseuses
20 were over age, right?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So when I'm talking about
23 abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who
24 comes in to give a massage and is told to take off
25 their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if
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1 they don't take off their clothes. Basically
2 suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the
3 things that have been publicly said about what he
4 did.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not --
6 TODD BLANCHE: For now I'm not -- I'm not
7 distinguishing adults or -- or -- or young or
8 underage women for that. I'm saying abuse.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm -- I'm going to
10 think that that would've been a habit.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to say that
13 the massage game was a habit. And I think --
14 DAVID MARKUS: What does that mean?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That means that I'm
16 sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations
17 with masseuses in 2002.
18 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am sure he must have
20 had relations with masseuses, who knows when.
21 TODD BLANCHE: But you're saying, as far
22 as you -- I -- I used the word abuse. You're saying
23 that as far as you sit here today, you would describe
24 that more as consensual? Meaning the masseuse did
25 those -- did this willingly?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I saw him with
2 lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse
3 ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So
4 based on my observation, I don't think that if you
5 are being raped, as now he's like this prolific -- I
6 just -- I just can't imagine why you would return.
7 TODD BLANCHE: That's not what you
8 observed at the time?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not what I observed at
10 the time, no.
11 TODD BLANCHE: I want to -- we're -- we're
12 going to spend a little -- we're going to spend more
13 time on this issue, because I -- I think it's
14 important. But just going back to kind of the -- the
15 question that I started with in this area, which is
16 that it ties into the blackmail issue.
17 So we talked about people that were his
18 clients, and you've mentioned President Clinton, and
19 then early on --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I never said he
21 was a client.
22 TODD BLANCHE: I -- I did not say you
23 said. I'm saying when you talk about his clients.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay. Right.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And puts his clients
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1 off the side.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And then you mentioned some
4 other people. You mentioned President Clinton --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- you mentioned President
7 Trump early on.
8 Who were other famous/politicians, who
9 were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during
10 that time period? So the early '90s --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was the '90s.
12 Let's -- should we just --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Congressman
15 McMillen.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: McMillen.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky, who
20 was the provost of Harvard. Hang on (Indiscernible).
21 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. You're looking at
22 your -- your -- your notes.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go ahead.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Joe Pagano, Jerry
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1 Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson.
2 I don't know if in the '90s Tom Pritzker,
3 Ace, Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were --
4 TODD BLANCHE: What about the royal
5 family?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. He didn't know
7 them in the '90s.
8 TODD BLANCHE: What about the -- the --
9 what about Prince Andrew?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Didn't know him in the
11 '90s.
12 TODD BLANCHE: When did --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well -- is that
14 right?
15 TODD BLANCHE: I wouldn't know. I do not
16 know. So I don't want you to have -- to worry about
17 exact dates. You're -- you're not positive about
18 that. But you don't have a specific recollection of
19 that being in the '90s?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I can -- I can
23 date it for you, I think, but I can't give you --
24 TODD BLANCHE: That's okay. I think
25 that's fine.
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1 So with respect to just -- and we'll --
2 we'll take a break in a minute to get some food. But
3 just with respect to Mr. -- with respect to the
4 individuals you just talked about. So again, focus
5 on the '90s.
6 And so the people that I'm talking about
7 right now, and we might add some names later. So
8 we're talking about the -- the clients that he worked
9 with, which you've mentioned several of. And I know
10 that that wasn't exhaustive, but you mentioned
11 several of them.
12 And then the -- the kind of what -- what I
13 called famous friends, but the -- the prominent
14 individuals that were in his life in the '90s.
15 Did -- did -- does any stick out in your mind as
16 having received massages? All of them.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky
18 received a massage.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you -- why does
20 that stick out in your memory?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I saw him in a
22 bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a
23 massage, he told me.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
25 that -- whether there was any -- whether the masseuse
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1 was naked during that massage?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't have any
3 idea.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
6 like in his 80s.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
9 like in his 80s.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- but do you
11 know -- notwithstanding his age --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky, sorry.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Say that again.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky was another
15 person.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether, for
17 example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe he
19 did.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And what makes you say you
21 don't believe he did?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, because I
23 don't -- so that's a good question. The time that
24 Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the
25 only times I believe -- well, obviously they
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1 traveled. There was that, you know, the plane, they
2 went on the plane 26 times or whatever. That would
3 be one journey.
4 So they spent time on the plane together,
5 and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the
6 plane. So that would've been the only time that I
7 think that President Clinton could have even received
8 a massage. And he didn't, because I was there.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And you mentioned that
10 early -- in the very beginning of the conversation,
11 you mentioned President Trump in the early '90s.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what's -- what did
14 you observe, as far as President Trump, and his
15 relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I just want to
17 say for my relationship with President Trump --
18 relationship's a big word -- but I just want to say
19 that I met him or I believe I may have, because of my
20 father in the '90s.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my father liked him
23 very much, and he was loved -- really liked his wife
24 as well, because we were both Czechoslovakian.
25 And as far as I'm concerned, President

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1 Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me.
2 And I just want to say that I find -- I -- I admire
3 his extraordinary achievement in becoming the
4 President now. And I like him, and I've always liked
5 him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire
6 relationship with him.
7 TODD BLANCHE: What about Mr. Epstein's
8 relationship with him?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how they
10 met, and I don't know how they became friends. I
11 certainly saw them together and I remember the few
12 times I observed them together, but they were
13 friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in social settings
15 or was that in private settings?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe I only ever
17 saw them in social settings. I don't recall any
18 private settings.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- have you
20 ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have.
22 TODD BLANCHE: In what time period are you
23 thinking about when you say yes?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember when
25 the President purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever
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1 it turned into the club, I went there and I was --
2 loved going there.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did you go there
4 alone or with Mr. Epstein?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mostly alone.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know where --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the times I went
8 there it was for an event, maybe once or twice.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
10 Mr. Epstein ever went there?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I believe he did,
12 but again, we really were -- he -- he didn't take me
13 with him all the time. So he would go and -- oh,
14 right. He never -- I never -- well, he did from time
15 to time, but he would go alone. I think he would
16 maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
18 President Trump receive a massage?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe -- you
21 said that you -- you were -- I mean, have you seen
22 the -- there's photographs, public photographs of
23 Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And there's photographs
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1 of -- I think you're -- you're in some of the
2 photographs --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
4 TODD BLANCHE: -- as well. Those all
5 appear to be social settings.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Do you --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- that's my
9 memory. They were social settings. I don't know
10 Epstein's -- if he had -- whatever the nature of the
11 President's friendship, if you will, or however you
12 want to define that with Epstein, I was -- never
13 witnessed.
14 I think they were friendly like people are
15 in social settings. I don't -- I don't think they
16 were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the
17 President in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him
18 in his house, for instance.
19 I actually never saw the President in any
20 type of massage setting. I never witnessed the
21 President in any inappropriate setting in any way.
22 The President was never inappropriate with anybody.
23 In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman
24 in all respects.
25 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time you
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1 think you saw, in person, President Trump?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Um, it was -- it's --
3 it's been a long time. Probably not -- sometime in
4 the -- beginning -- mid -- mid 2000s maybe. And it
5 would only have been a social setting, as far as I
6 recall.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And did you ever hear
8 Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had
9 done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with
10 anybody in your world?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely never, in
12 any context.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
14 masseuses from Mar-a-Lago's spa ended up giving
15 massages to -- private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm
16 not asking for what you may have read, but from -- at
17 the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know
18 whether that's true?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't -- I
20 don't recall. Is it possible? Yes. But I don't
21 remember -- I don't remember that. So I don't want
22 to -- I don't recall that, but it's possible.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you have a recollection
24 of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa
25 to give -- to go give a private massage to
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1 Mr. Epstein?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never recruited a
3 masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I
4 remember. I can't ever recollect doing that.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So what -- what I
6 think we should do now, it's about 12:15. We'll take
7 a -- we'll take a break and we will come back in a
8 little bit.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 (Break at 12:15 p.m. to 12:59 p.m.)
12 SPENCER HORN: Good afternoon. We are
13 continuing the recorded proffer interview of
14 Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So just to continue
16 what we're talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused
17 on the '90s time period with -- understanding that
18 could spill over in the early 2000s. But still that
19 part of your -- of your life with Mr. Epstein.
20 There's been public reporting about
21 conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint
22 James.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So can you talk about the
25 frequency with which you went there, and address some
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1 of those -- some of the reporting, namely around
2 young masseuses or young women who would be present
3 and what you observed --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- relating to them, and
6 then I'll ask questions around that.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if I'm right, he
8 purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with
9 the owners. And originally, we went to the island as
10 guests of the owners. And then I guess at some point
11 the owners told him -- he -- they wanted to sell and
12 he decided to purchase it.
13 So the island was very rustic. I loved
14 it. He, of course, had completely different ideas.
15 And I would say there was none of what you were
16 describing at that early period of time.
17 So the frequency was -- was often. We're
18 often on the island, because he loved it. He really,
19 really loved it. And we would, -- we would go all
20 the time. Mostly all the early phase was based on
21 improvements that could be made on the island.
22 Always going with new architects, new
23 designers, new construction people. I'd say the
24 first two years, almost every trip, not every one,
25 but almost every trip contained some -- an individual
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1 who would be brought on board to have an opinion as
2 to how to -- I don't want to use the word "improve
3 the island," because I don't think you could improve
4 it, but to -- I can't think what the word would be.
5 To -- what's the word I'm looking for? To develop
6 it. Sorry. That's the word.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Develop -- develop the
9 island. That's the word I'm looking for.
10 So -- so there were trips, constant trips
11 with that in mind. And I would say now if we are
12 moving to the late '90s, '96, '97 I definitely
13 witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior,
14 and a modification, if you will.
15 Where in the past, in the early '90s, I
16 don't remember traveling so much with other people.
17 There would be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now
18 he started to travel with more, always a masseuse.
19 Whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or
20 always an instructor. There was now starting to be
21 always an individual or a friend or whatever.
22 There's always a, like, maybe the word
23 would be entourage, but these were always people in
24 their 20s, late 20s, early 30s in my -- as my memory
25 sees it, as I -- as I observe that time.
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1 And he tasked me with finding a local
2 masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes,
3 even though I say he would always travel with an
4 entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have
5 a massage locally.
6 So I visited the mass- -- the spas that
7 were local in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I
8 met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it
9 was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's
10 not exactly, you know. So, and I did find a couple
11 of people who would come.
12 So that's how they came, because also it
13 was a schlep. So if you had somebody who came, it
14 would be -- you would have to, you know, boat ride
15 and you -- several hours. It wasn't just a -- it's
16 not like arriving with your massage table and stuff.
17 So there was that. So I did do that.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So did, over the years,
19 males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I did say, I
21 don't think -- at the beginning, definitely. And I
22 would say towards sort of, again, late '90s, I don't
23 remember any men. They were at the beginning, I
24 think in that -- towards the late '90s, I cannot
25 think of any men. I only think of women.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- well, you talk
2 about entourage flying, right now we're talking about
3 to the island. Did you observe any sexual, I was
4 going to say misconduct, but any sexual -- any sex at
5 all whatsoever on the plane?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never on the plane,
7 no.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Was there a part of the
9 plane that was closed off from others where
10 Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. Okay. So
12 that's a good question. So there were two planes.
13 So you had the -- there was a Gulfstream, and that's
14 open plan. So anything -- I mean, there was a sofa
15 that turned into a bed. And he did sleep on that.
16 And then -- but in the Boeing, which he
17 flew on a lot, there was -- his area could be closed
18 off with a door. And behind that door there would
19 be -- there was a bedroom and an office. So if that
20 door was shut, you wouldn't see it.
21 TODD BLANCHE: But do you -- so if you
22 never -- so -- but you never observed Mr. Epstein
23 engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody --
24 with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the
25 plane?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't say that. I
2 might have --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I definitely might,
5 either both in the Gulfstream or in the --
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in the -- I'm sure
8 I did, but it's not -- I can't --
9 TODD BLANCHE: That's fair.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I'm absolutely
11 sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was
12 so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or -- just --
13 when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear.
14 I generally -- what I think of that is
15 somebody on a massage table, but other people might
16 think of it as something different. You know, you
17 could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder.
18 I saw that all the time. That I did. But sep- --
19 that's separate from being on a massage table.
20 TODD BLANCHE: How -- again, I know we're
21 talking about a decade-long period, but during the
22 period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how
23 often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the '90s, when
25 we're talking, he would get one every day. I think,
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1 as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe
2 twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a
3 reason that things altered or morphed or progressed,
4 and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I --
5 he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants
6 to call it altered.
7 And he started doing testosterone and that
8 altered his character. And I believe that started in
9 the late '90s. And I believe that the FBI has his
10 medical records and you may see that on his medical
11 records. Yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: So you believe that he
13 started taking testosterone in the '90s, and when you
14 say that altered his behavior, you're saying it
15 wanted to -- made him get more massages or that was
16 just one part of what changed about him?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he became more
18 aggressive.
19 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think that he
21 maybe -- well, now I'm just imagining that the
22 testosterone altered his desires or something, does
23 that --
24 TODD BLANCHE: And so when, given what
25 you've said the past couple hours about his kind of
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1 progression or change, let's focus on that time
2 period, so the more towards the late '90s.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The testosterone.
4 Yeah, okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: So '96, '97, '98, you know,
6 toward --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- when you've said that he
9 changed. Did you know flat out that he was having
10 sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with
11 masseuses regularly?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Flat out? No, I
13 denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would but I
14 think looking back now, that -- I did not. But I
15 started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems
16 ludicrous but that's what I thought.
17 TODD BLANCHE: But if -- look, if -- if
18 he's flying from Palm Beach to -- to St. Thomas or if
19 he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to
20 New York, or even in Palm Beach and there's young
21 women, putting aside whether they're under the age of
22 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple
23 masseuses -- multiple massages on some days, you're
24 interacting with the masseuses constantly.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Huh?
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Or maybe that's not right.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's not right.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Let me take back what I
4 just said. Ignore that part.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But you understand that he
7 is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple
8 times a day. The -- by the late '90s, it's all
9 women, presumably they're -- some of them are new,
10 but they're also repeat masseuses.
11 What did you -- I mean, you had to know at
12 that point that there was something going on beyond
13 just, he really needed to get massaged.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- very fair
15 question. There's two things. The first is the
16 person that he saw the most at that period of time
17 was in her 40s.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And she was with him
20 all the time. And I'm, like, married as well --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as -- I'm square.
23 And it never occurred -- well, I don't believe it
24 occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he
25 would be having relations. And he was with her --
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1 that was the person he had the most massages, yoga,
2 and that -- with -- at that time in the '90s period.
3 The second thing is that -- is he told me
4 he didn't -- he had difficulty having an erection,
5 and I believed him.
6 TODD BLANCHE: When you said he said that,
7 you mean he regularly told you that? Like he --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When I first --
9 because when I didn't have sex with him after the
10 first time, and it took -- so I asked him, was it me?
11 And he told me it was him.
12 And I had never, up until this moment in
13 my life, I -- as if I'm not stupid. I'm very bright.
14 I've had an excellent education. I traveled all over
15 the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never met
16 or understood that somebody could be so -- would lie
17 to me about -- I could -- it never occurred to me.
18 I didn't have a frame of context within my
19 life experience where somebody would be so
20 manipulative and devious with me. I just -- and
21 plus, I just didn't have -- I just -- and I was happy
22 not to have sex, because I have a condition that
23 doesn't lend itself to that.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Does -- when you learned --
25 so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, '08,
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1 '09 time period and he's arrested and charged and
2 there's all kinds of press around his purported
3 contact, at that point -- at that point, did you
4 accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make
5 sense at that point?
6 When you were reading about women who
7 claimed that they had been abused, even underage
8 and -- at that point, did you think to yourself,
9 well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about
10 it or no?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: First of all, I
12 didn't -- that's -- I only read what was in the
13 newspapers. I didn't have any other thing. And I'm
14 embarrassed to say it, I didn't -- I didn't believe
15 it.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Right. I mean, you
17 didn't believe that the accusations were true at the
18 time.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So let's --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And sorry, I need to
22 say, even if they were true, I believe that he was
23 duped and he didn't know that they were -- whatever
24 that was in the papers at that time, whether they
25 said that they were 17 or, I didn't -- it didn't
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1 register, because --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- along with all of
4 those -- well, not in 2006, but later when the more
5 salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were
6 utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief
7 that the rest was not true.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question
9 about the age of the masseuses over the years. It --
10 I think in my mind, there's a difference between you
11 knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the
12 age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you
13 knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused
14 the underage person or made her strip or something
15 like that, meaning -- and I want to understand
16 whether you believe that nobody that came to give
17 massages, none of the women were under 18 or that you
18 didn't focus on their age, but you -- you were more
19 focused on whether any underage woman was abused by
20 him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's better to
22 answer this question with corroborating evidence and
23 then go back and explain, so that I frame --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- your understanding
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1 of what I'm saying. Of the -- my understanding is
2 that in 2000 and, let's say 2008, they had
3 interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that
4 number.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You have to
7 understand, not a single one of those 44 women
8 mentioned me in a single report. And it's not
9 because -- go back.
10 They didn't mention me in their report
11 because they never met me, they never saw me, and
12 they never interacted with me. So to go back to your
13 question, it's not that I thought one way or another,
14 it's that I didn't see them.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I see. Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, that's helpful.
18 So --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- and but
20 when I say not one, not single one of those reports
21 talked about me. And I just want to clarify exactly,
22 because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls
23 is -- was one of the witnesses in my trial,
24 specifically .
25 To use her own testimony so that you don't
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1 have to --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- hear my point of
4 view. It's better if it comes from her own words and
5 that way there's no second-guessing whether -- what
6 I'm saying.
7 herself said that
8 recruited her, brought her and
9 trained her. Those are own words.
10 Where was I going with this?
11 TODD BLANCHE: That you were -- that you
12 didn't know. I mean, I assume you were saying that
13 you weren't --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh yeah, sorry, sorry,
15 sorry, sorry.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. That's okay --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm trying to remember
18 where I was.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- that's all right. It's
20 okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really do have some
22 slow cognition issues.
23 The --
24 TODD BLANCHE: So she says -- she
25 testifies that it was that recruited her
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1 and trained her and not you.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So wait. So then in
3 her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman
4 with short dark hair at the house, which then is used
5 as evidence that that person was myself.
6 But the maid, lady that who helped keep
7 the house, John Alessi's wife -- oh, and with an
8 accent, I believe she said.
9 John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair
10 and an accent. I'm sorry, but I find -- and you can
11 ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified
12 my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm
13 British. I've been brought up with a very strong
14 British accent.
15 And I don't believe there's an American on
16 planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be
17 British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't
18 know. But it's not some random accent.
19 Now the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was
20 John's wife that she saw, not me. And I'd like to
21 point out further how you -- potentially her own --
22 through her own words. She identify --
23 DAVID MARKUS: Why don't we -- why don't
24 we --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
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1 DAVID MARKUS: -- stop there and let him
2 ask the next question.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: You're good.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So it's -- so just -- and
7 look, I want to -- I want to try to -- I think
8 probably tomorrow we will -- I want to talk more
9 about kind of the evidence against you and how to
10 address that. So --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
12 TODD BLANCHE: No, don't apologize.
13 That's -- so that's helpful but --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- I don't want you to be
16 burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best
17 you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what
18 people said at trial or what you know the press says
19 about you, so --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just thought it was
21 illustrative when you asked the question --
22 TODD BLANCHE: And it was. It was.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it
24 doesn't -- I did not -- I absolutely have no memory
25 at any -- now I'm leaving DOJ REDACTION separate
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1 to this obviously --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so that's a
4 separate story. I'm not going to pretend -- well,
5 we'll come to her.
6 TODD BLANCHE: We'll get to her. Go
7 ahead.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, she -- but in the
9 terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to
10 determine what you're calling that, I have no -- no
11 memory, no active anything of having seen anybody
12 that resembles a young -- a child, let's call it what
13 it is, at that house giving him a massage at all.
14 It's not even like I did this. It's an at
15 all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me
16 either, including .
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and when you say
18 "that house," I --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
20 Palm Beach.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, I understand what
22 you mean but, and I -- does the same memory or lack
23 thereof, apply to on planes, at -- in New Mexico, in
24 New York, in --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, with some other
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1 important caveats. Well, on that -- but Julian --
2 Jane, in my trial, was clearly underage, clearly a
3 child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach and I only
4 saw her with her mother.
5 The other person who's clearly also not an
6 adult or even close, , I believe, I
7 remember her now. That would be the only two or
8 three, whatever that is.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So did you ever know
10 Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either
11 like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or
12 just generally with FBI agents?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think if he had done
15 that, you would've known, like he would've told you
16 something like that? Like if I said to you,
17 Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say,
18 that's crazy, no, he wasn't or maybe he was, I
19 would -- he wouldn't have told me that anyway.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have two answers for
21 that. I think if he was for real, I think he
22 would've bragged about it to me as a show off,
23 because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't, he
24 might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't
25 think -- I don't remember him doing either.
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1 Now, with, again, the caveat that in
2 his -- before I met him finding money, I think he may
3 have suggested that there was some people who helped
4 him, but that's the only context that I recall that
5 in.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What do you mean by that?
7 When you said "finding money," what do you mean?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, his business
9 where he -- remember I told you --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I think in that
12 context, he made -- he showed me a photograph that he
13 had with some African warlords or something that he
14 told me. And, you know, I get -- I don't remember if
15 I -- that's what I interpreted the -- like that kind
16 of thing or whether it was something like that.
17 That's the only actual active memory I
18 have of something nefarious -- not nefarious. I
19 don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I
20 suppose would be the word.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And what about any other
22 intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense
23 Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't think
25 so. I think that -- I don't remember anything like
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1 that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal and
2 I think that whole aspect of that is -- can I use a
3 bad word?
4 DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bullshit.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what do you --
8 you think it's bullshit, meaning? What do you mean?
9 DAVID MARKUS: Would you have known if he
10 was -- would he have been bragging to you? Would he
11 have been saying these things.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was because
13 I -- I think, well, sorry. I think that -- I think
14 one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my,
15 you know, my family connections and why he liked
16 other people was because they were cool or whatever.
17 And I think that, certainly, early in when
18 I met him, he would've tried to impress me or tried
19 to show off, if you will. Like he was that guy, you
20 know, and he wasn't that guy. And so -- and I think
21 that he would've tried to bullshit me and he didn't,
22 so I think it's --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Did --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he may have
25 tried to bullshit me, but no, I couldn't.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to just shift for
4 a few minutes to talk about post-2000. 2000 to kind
5 of when your relationship changed over the years with
6 him.
7 Did there come a time when he,
8 Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the Royal Family?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I need to go back,
12 because I think I may have misspoke --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't misspeak
15 but I --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, go ahead.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- it's something that
18 I have forgotten.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Of course. Yeah.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before I met Epstein,
21 he lived in London for a period of time, I don't know
22 for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy
23 people, like people -- high society people, that
24 included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was
25 Rosa Monckton. And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson,
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1 who's a famous journalist, actually is a very well
2 known journalist.
3 And when I -- and he had -- he was friends
4 with the Barings, Barings Bank and he had like, sort
5 of --
6 TODD BLANCHE: That was, you're talking
7 about --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before he met me.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Before, so in the --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '80s.
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- '80s. Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. He was dating
13 Eva Andersson, Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know
14 when she became Miss Sweden.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So earlier when you
16 said that he met them later --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- you think he may have
19 met some members of the Royal Family or certainly
20 British high society.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He met -- I don't know
22 about the Royal Family, but certainly high society.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason why I
25 know this is because, sometime we can -- this is a
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1 documentable thing. Docu -- whatever. There's a
2 photograph that can give you the date, because I
3 don't remember what the date is of this, so there's
4 something that will peg whatever this date is. I
5 don't remember when that is.
6 Epstein went to London without me. He
7 often went everywhere without me, but he was in
8 London without me, which was decently unusual because
9 London's my hometown.
10 But anyway, he went without me. And he
11 went to a big event in, I think it was in the --
12 anyway, it was a big event. It's on -- it's on --
13 it's on -- it's on the news. It's like a -- there's
14 photographs of it. And he, I don't know if he sat
15 with Diana or he met Diana and he'd already met her.
16 I don't know, but this, I believe was organized by
17 Rosa.
18 And so there's -- I don't know if she was
19 being set up as a date for him, maybe because she --
20 I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but -- I'm not
21 going to do that.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So that was
23 pre-meeting you.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that was -- that
25 event happened when we were --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. That was
2 (Inaudible).
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I would --
4 sometime --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - no, it's when we
7 were --
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I'm not going to
10 say together, but when -- how about this? When I was
11 his employee, that's a bit better.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So now moving back
13 to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein
14 met Prince Andrew?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And others in the
17 Royal Family or just Prince Andrew as, far as you
18 know?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so as -- as much
20 as I can piece it together, all right, first of all
21 let's just state, I did not introduce him to
22 Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince
23 Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth.
24 I'll start with that.
25 So now I'm going to tell you how he did
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1 actually meet him. So I -- if you find me that
2 photograph, I can date that time when he met
3 Princess Diana at that event. I -- and based on
4 that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post
5 that event, because I haven't looked it up and I've
6 never bothered to check.
7 So Lynn Forester, who was a client or some
8 type of client, or I think she actually tried to date
9 him or might have dated him, for the record. She was
10 in -- do you want to ask me something?
11 TODD BLANCHE: No, go ahead.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. She was -- she
13 had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I
14 think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can't
15 remember now which one it was. It was one of those.
16 It was either in Nantucket or the Vineyard, and
17 invited Epstein to go, and I believe that's when he
18 met Prince Andrew.
19 However, I believe that before that event,
20 he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with
21 Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had
22 arranged with Lynn, or I don't know. I don't know.
23 Now I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met
24 Andrew up there.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And I'm not holding you to
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1 an exact date, but when, approximately, was that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, we can date it
3 from that picture, if you find me the picture.
4 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know, I --
5 without looking at a photo, in your mind,
6 approximately, when was that.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say it was
8 the 2000 -- no, probably 2001, 2002.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Early 2000s?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And I think it was actually
12 Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met
13 Jeffrey Epstein through you.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that's true.
15 So -- well --
16 LEAH SAFFIAN: It's true that Andrew said
17 that.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, no, I'm sure
19 it's true, because I -- I'm English and my close
20 friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew.
21 And I would not say that I was close friends with
22 Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and
23 certainly his best friends, some of them, are very
24 close with me.
25 And I think that my friendship, my -- me
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1 being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey
2 more, like, trust him or I think that's the idea.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't dispute that
4 you're -- that you kind of had a role in them getting
5 together. You're just saying you didn't say, Prince,
6 here's Jeffrey.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would never have
8 introduced them. It would never have occurred to me
9 to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being
10 friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never -- I
11 mean, for real, there's nothing there to connect
12 them.
13 So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a
14 really good relationship. I don't like that word.
15 It sounds clunky. They had a friend --
16 DAVID MARKUS: Acquaintanceship.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. And --
18 through Sarah, actually. I think Sarah is the one
19 that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want
20 to say two or three times that had nothing to do with
21 me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew, I wasn't in
22 touch with him.
23 And I know this because I was annoyed and
24 I felt left out, and I felt disrespected and I was
25 like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein
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1 and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was
2 trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being
3 honest, and I thought the whole thing was annoying
4 and I was pissed off.
5 TODD BLANCHE: So what happened with their
6 relationship? Putting aside the publicity around
7 Prince Andrew's purported relationship with
8 , what happened, as far as you know, with
9 Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship, from
10 the times you just described or you give me --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So after that,
12 at some point Jeffrey told me -- Epstein told me that
13 Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to
14 organize the whole thing. That's classic by the way,
15 classic Epstein.
16 Of course, if someone -- I'm like, all
17 right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make
18 sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was
19 comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada, yada,
20 yada.
21 And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him
22 or are you just going to have me do all the job? And
23 he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello.
24 Like, wow. Well, that's so nice of you, for real.
25 Because you have to understand, like, I
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1 don't know if I told you this before, but I did not
2 have the keys to his -- I was not allowed to go to
3 his house, unless I was summoned or told. I was not
4 allowed to answer his phones. We can go there, but
5 anyway. So this -- you can tell there's a bit of a
6 sore point, perhaps.
7 Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the
8 minute we got together I was like, yay. Hi. And
9 then it was so nice, because the difference of being
10 in England with Prince Andrew versus being in
11 New York without all the bullshit was insane.
12 And our friendship just like lit up like
13 this, because first of all, he knew that I'm safe. I
14 mean safe as in I'm not, yeah, you know, Nigel
15 Dempster or taking a picture.
16 I mean, not in a million years would I do
17 something so gross. And we honestly got on like a
18 house on fire. I really liked him a lot and he's --
19 it was so nice and we just became really, really good
20 friends, much more so than when we were in London, if
21 I'm honest.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And then with respect to
23 and Prince Andrew, what do you know about
24 that relationship?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Would you like to ask
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1 that again? Relationship is a big word. Like I
2 said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there.
3 Okay.
4 So I have read -- I just want to like
5 piece together.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but don't say --
7 before you say what you read, because that's one of
8 the problems is that we're all kind of --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. What, I
10 know --
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- we're all formed by like
12 all the publicity and information around what
13 everybody else has said, but like, what do you --
14 DAVID MARKUS: Know.
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- what do you think or
16 what did you see? What did you hear?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's an even bigger
18 word than bullshit?
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Why? Well, go ahead
20 just -- but finish that thought. Why do you think
21 that?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to tell you
23 right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like
24 excited. I'm beyond excited.
25 Okay. So there's been a mixture of what
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1 I've actually seen and know from the evidence and
2 versus what I've put together. Impossible for me at
3 this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you
4 what I know versus what I saw and what I physically
5 have in here, but it's helpful for you to know.
6 So the allegation, I have to go with the
7 allegation. The allegation was that at my house in
8 London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe,
9 we went to London, especially so that could
10 have a -- or could have a relationship with
11 Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money
12 for that purpose.
13 Okay. And that she then got in the -- in
14 my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual
15 relations with him and then went into my guest room
16 and had full blown sex and then left my house, or he
17 left, and she felt used and disgusting.
18 And a photograph was taken of them just
19 before all these events took place in my study. That
20 is what is the story.
21 Oh, and then after that she met him
22 several other times. But we'll come to that. We'll
23 come -- this is where it will -- allegedly started.
24 LEAH SAFFIAN: And they went to Tramp.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, right. We went to
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1 nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right?
2 We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay. So the
3 first thing about that weekend, that specific
4 weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in
5 the country.
6 And I have some corroborating evidence for
7 that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So
8 that takes care of the reason why I -- one of the
9 reasons why her story doesn't hold water.
10 The second reason why -- so -- by the way,
11 when I say that, my mum turned 80th, that actual
12 weekend was, her birthday is on March the 11th. And
13 the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but
14 I -- this I don't remember, is why when we were -- so
15 the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who
16 is the decorator for the island and for -- and for
17 New York as well.
18 And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a
19 house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went
20 via the Alhambra, it was also for New Mexico. So
21 there's architectural pieces that -- paint. And that
22 was the basis of that trip.
23 And I suspect now, that that trip was
24 planned all around the fact that I had to be in --
25 wanted to be in -- was going to be in London no

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1 matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my
2 brother's house in the country, which is
3 approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and
4 a half --
5 LEAH SAFFIAN: An hour and a half.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- an hour and a half
7 outside of London, in my brother's home. And we all
8 congregated on the Saturday for her birthday
9 celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So
10 that's that.
11 The second reason why -- probably maybe
12 even the more important reason than my mum's
13 birthday, that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that
14 Prince Andrew. The idea of him doing anything of
15 that nature in my house, that's the size of this
16 room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me, as
17 the man or what -- I just can't -- I can't even --
18 I -- no.
19 DAVID MARKUS: Is there any way that it
20 could have happened?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
23 LEAH SAFFIAN: Describe the physical plan.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, the physical -- so
25 the -- my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square
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1 feet in total. Well, maybe that; is that right?
2 Maybe nine --
3 LEAH SAFFIAN: Yes.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It is on three floors,
5 however. So you're talking about a little -- it's a
6 jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was
7 the stables for the big house. It was a little poor
8 man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel.
9 It's a -- was a gorgeous little place, but
10 it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's
11 say, a little burp or something you don't want to --
12 you'd hear it. It just --
13 Where she says that they had relations in
14 a bathroom, I -- first of all, the bath is an old
15 Victorian bath. I could -- I'm quite -- quite small,
16 it's tight for me. I put my brother in there to see
17 what would happen. And it looks like a blivet, which
18 is a sausage in like a very tight skin.
19 So her description of whatever the two
20 people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work.
21 The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat
22 on the floor. So it couldn't happen on the floor,
23 because you physically, physically can't. This
24 bathroom is too small to even be on the floor.
25 And then the kicker of all kickers, is
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1 that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated
2 it to try make it look huge, which meant that I put
3 mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun
4 about being in there is that if you stood in the
5 bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do
6 if you were in --
7 DAVID MARKUS: A fun house.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, well, Alice in
9 Wonderland or one of those things that you would see
10 yourself going, stretching everything. And the
11 image. If you said you were -- let's say you were,
12 let's say that was telling the truth.
13 She could say she was having sex with
14 5,000 generations of the Royal Family, because that's
15 how far back you could see yourself. There is no way
16 in God's green earth if that had taken place, that
17 this is something that you would miss, because it's
18 -- you couldn't miss it.
19 If you were standing there, you'd see the
20 whole -- the FBI, the whole Department of Justice
21 standing behind you. It's like, no.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
23 LEAH SAFFIAN: And also -- let me just --
24 also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well it's an old
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1 Vic- had a tap. So if you were in -- if you were in
2 the top, right, it might -- this is the tub. My tap
3 would be here, I think -- no.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So you think it's kind of
5 logistically and physically not something that could
6 have happened.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, there's that.
8 And there's just -- Andrew would -- he's so English.
9 He's so -- he had a tie on.
10 DAVID MARKUS: Do you think there's any
11 way it could have happened or no?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely on -- no
13 way -- no how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven't
14 finished. So on her --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Go --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
17 DAVID MARKUS: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go, go, go.
20 Finish. Please, go ahead.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Can I finish?
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. When all this
24 nonsense took place, where this whole story with the
25 picture and the this and the that and this bullshit,
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1 I believe that this whole thing was manufactured, and
2 I can point you to some potentially corroborating
3 evidence of this.
4 So when she gave the photograph to the FBI
5 in Australia --
6 DIEGO PESTANA: Just to be clear, the
7 photo, you're talking about, you're talking about the
8 famous one where --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I have a image
10 of it here. Who wants to look at it?
11 DIEGO PESTANA: -- where Prince Andrew is
12 holding and you're in the background?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The fake, just to be
14 clear. So on the back of that, and this is in the
15 discovery by the way. I don't know if it's in -- I
16 don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now.
17 But this -- she wrote, she, ,
18 wrote in the back that it was a picture that was
19 taken in January of 2000 and -- on 2000 or 2001, I
20 don't remember.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So now in her
23 handwriting, that she's giving the FBI this picture,
24 suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her
25 writing it's January to March. It's because it
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1 only -- it's the only one that fit with the flight
2 logs, that when she could be in London and this took
3 place.
4 The second thing is that -- oh, I'm so
5 excited to tell you this. There is a journalist, I
6 know you guys are quite -- well, I don't know. The
7 fake news is at work here.
8 So there's a journalist called Sharon
9 Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards.
10 These two -- and there is a Southern District of
11 Florida prosecutor called Villafana.
12 I would very much look forward to showing
13 you the relationship between these three parties that
14 created that story.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Why? Well, without --
16 putting aside the relationship, why do you think they
17 created that story?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe that story
19 was created for the purposes of -- well, there are
20 multiple. The first one is financial, the second one
21 is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one
22 was for the serialization, both of her book and in
23 the papers, for the story to attack the Royal Family.
24 And just as a --
25 TODD BLANCHE: So I think when -- when you
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1 were just asked about the photo, you said you
2 actually thought the photo was fake.
3 Do you think it was just misdated or do
4 you think it's a fake -- literally a fake photo?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe it's
6 literally a fake photo.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
9 don't remember it. We'll start --
10 TODD BLANCHE: But you --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Okay. But the
12 outfit I'm wearing --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is the outfit from
15 my mum's birthday party.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So but you don't have
17 any -- do you dispute that they've met each other?
18 DAVID MARKUS: Do you know whether they've
19 met each other?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not know that
21 they met.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so you not
23 only -- so you think the photograph is fake, but you
24 also are not even positive they actually ever met
25 each other.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't have a
3 specific recollection of kind of being at an event or
4 a party or your apartment, or you know, you're flat
5 in London with Prince Andrew and ?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
7 DAVID MARKUS: She doesn't know one way or
8 the other.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Understand that.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just -- I want you
11 to know that --
12 TODD BLANCHE: No, I know.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- the reason why --
14 I'm not hesitant. I'm not -- I don't have any memory
15 of that, so that -- that's not the issue. The issue
16 is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or
17 see Epstein, and say hi and she had been there? Yes.
18 I can't say that that didn't happen.
19 But what I can absolutely, categorically
20 say is that I never, at any time, set Andrew up to
21 have relations with her or any other human being
22 ever.
23 And I can categorically state that her --
24 her characterization of whatever may or may not have
25 happened, could -- physically would just no. And
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1 plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not
2 conceivable.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you attend -- did you
4 attend social parties over -- and again, I really,
5 now I'm focused on 2000 plus, so not -- not the
6 earlier, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a
7 big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or
8 many of the young women who were masseuses would be
9 invited to the party, as guests or his entertainment?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I certainly went to
11 his house when he would have people who would be
12 there that were -- I call them -- I would -- the way
13 I would think of it and I would characterize it, were
14 his entourage. That's how I thought about it. And
15 that certainly was in the later 2000s, Yes.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you attend any
17 weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again,
18 I'm mostly focused on post -- plus -- post 2000, but
19 if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s,
20 that's fine as well.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A wedding?
22 TODD BLANCHE: Weddings.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Epstein? I don't
24 think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can't
25 think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so you don't
2 remember -- you didn't attend President Clinton's
3 daughter's wedding --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- Chelsea Clinton's.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
7 TODD BLANCHE: But that wasn't with
8 Mr. Epstein?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, it was with
10 Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Ted Waitt, my
13 boyfriend.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know whether
15 Mr. Epstein was at that wedding?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was not.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And how did you --
18 did you have a relationship -- well, why did you get
19 invited to that wedding?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Ted and
21 Clinton were very close.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And why -- how were you
23 close to them? Like what was the reason you were
24 close to them?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met President
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1 Clinton -- well, I first of all, I went to the
2 White House with Epstein once for, I think it was for
3 a historical, like one of those benefits and I met
4 the President then, but like a thousand other people
5 shook his hand.
6 Then after that, I had a very -- a good
7 friend of mine that was the mayor -- known to be the
8 Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and
9 the President were very good friends. And Philip was
10 a very -- and I were very good friends, and so I
11 actually was introduced to the President post his
12 coming out of the White House and became friendly
13 with him, because of Philip Levine.
14 DAVID MARKUS: Because of what?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Philip Levine.
16 TODD BLANCHE: There's some names that
17 have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I
18 just want to ask you if you know about: Piers
19 Morgan?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is friendly with who?
21 TODD BLANCHE: With Mr. Epstein.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no idea.
23 Never. I doubt it.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. There's no trick
25 question. I'm not trying to --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Yeah.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- I'm not suggesting that
3 I know the answer to it. I'm generally just asking.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I would be
5 astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in
6 common either.
7 TODD BLANCHE: How about --
8 DIEGO PESTANA: Were you friends with
9 Piers Morgan?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've met him. I've
11 met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I
12 can't remember what -- in more recently, so probably
13 in 2012, '13, something in that, and we had a very
14 nice conversation. So I remember -- I remember that.
15 I remember thinking -- I'd never -- I
16 don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I
17 remember thinking how nice he was and I was
18 surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you?
19 So that's the only one -- that's the only
20 memory I have of that. I'm not sure if that's
21 correct but that's what I think.
22 TODD BLANCHE: I don't have a correct or
23 incorrect answer. I just want you to tell the truth.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I just don't know.
25 I just want to try and...
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1 TODD BLANCHE: No, but I don't -- I want
2 you to believe me and -- because I mean this. There
3 is so much information in the public sphere --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I see. Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- about you and
6 Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is
7 definitely true and some of it is definitely false --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. All right. I
9 just -- I guess that's --
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when I ask a question
11 --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- if I think that you're
14 not being honest or that you're missing something,
15 I'm not going to -- this isn't got you.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
17 TODD BLANCHE: I'll say that to you.
18 Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry?
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will -- I met him at
24 Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No, Kerry -- Kerry's
25 wedding. Kerry's wedding. Who did Kerry marry?
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1 Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Andrew Cuomo's wedding
4 in --
5 TODD BLANCHE: So when would that have
6 been, approximately?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1990.
8 TODD BLANCHE: So before --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1999. I don't -- I --
10 something like that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But would that have been
12 before you met Mr. Epstein?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or maybe -- yes.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you have a -- any sort
15 of professional or social relationship with John F.
16 Kennedy, Jr.?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I fancied him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: You what?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought he was very
20 attractive.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you fancied him.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Besides him -- finding him
24 attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort
25 of, you know, social relationship with him?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, we knew each
2 other. I thought he was wonderful and fun and I
3 enjoyed meeting him, but I -- we went out -- I want
4 to say we had a dinner or two, but obviously I was
5 very excited, but that was it.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And then Alan Dershowitz.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- what's the
8 question with Alan?
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- say that again.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the question?
11 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he knew
14 Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their
15 relationship?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I definitely do
17 know Alan. I want -- I'm just trying to remember if
18 I knew him -- I am trying to remember how I met him.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and if I met him
21 separate from -- I don't remember.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that I have no
24 recollection. I remember -- I know that he was
25 Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any
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1 relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I
2 do actually. Sorry.
3 I think they met at the same
4 Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forester. I think
5 that's what happened. I think that's it.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you think that?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because it just popped
8 into my head.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you -- did
10 you -- you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's
11 attorney.
12 Do you know whether they also socialized?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my personal memory
14 of when I remember two -- I have two distinct
15 memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at
16 the island, and I actually remember that. And I
17 remember, I think, going to his house in Boston, if
18 he had a house in Boston, that's -- it was only two
19 times I remember.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
21 Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with
22 young women around Mr. Epstein?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear
25 anybody -- did anybody ever tell you that he had done
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1 anything inappropriate?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- did you --
4 do you know one way or the other, whether
5 Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or
6 any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember
8 anything about him ever getting massaged. I don't
9 ever have any recoll- -- I don't believe I ever even
10 saw him in a bathrobe. I have no knowledge of that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: I'm jumping around a little
12 bit. You mentioned, I think briefly the TerraMar
13 Project.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What is that?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I founded TerraMar
17 in -- well, the idea of TerraMar came, I think in
18 2010. So I want to just explain TerraMar a little
19 bit.
20 So Ted and I bought a boat -- well, Ted
21 bought the boat. And its -- basis of the boat was to
22 do explorations and sea -- sea exploratory stuff.
23 This really started because I have, and have had
24 since I was a child, a love of the ocean and
25 everything aquatic. And I've always been, I just --
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1 I'm nervous about the state of the ocean.
2 When Ted and I, we worked with National
3 Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most
4 exciting -- we did many exciting things, but one of
5 the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for
6 Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look
7 for Amelia Earhart, as an example of an -- of a
8 exploration that we did.
9 And he had a foundation for the ocean and
10 we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole.
11 We did amazing things.
12 We bought-- he bought the Remus 6000, so
13 when the plane went missing, the plane that went --
14 was it Air France? From Brazil to Paris that went
15 down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane.
16 It's one of those deep sea explorers.
17 Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I
18 just -- one of the things I did not want to give up
19 was the -- my love of the ocean and everything that
20 we did and TerraMar, the genesis of TerraMar came
21 from that. So TerraMar obviously means land, sea.
22 And the story of the ocean is that earth
23 really shouldn't be called earth, it should be called
24 ocean because three quarters is the ocean.
25 So -- and so I wanted to not clash with
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1 anything to do with Ted, because it was a bit awkward
2 between us and I -- so he took all the part of the
3 ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles.
4 And so I decided I would focus on all the
5 part of the ocean that was outside of national
6 borders, TerraMar. And that's how that -- that's the
7 genesis of TerraMar. Okay.
8 TODD BLANCHE: So what was the time period
9 of that?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That -- I think after
11 I broke up with Ted, so 2010, '11 is when it started.
12 And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the
13 Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down.
14 Not -- I shut it down because I didn't
15 want what was happening to hurt any -- the
16 Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the -- I just couldn't let
17 everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Jean-Luc
19 Brunel?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him -- so
23 when -- I told you I was working for the European,
24 for my dad --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I was in
2 charge.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So back in like '90, early
4 '90s?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. And I was
6 running a magazine. One of the things in the
7 magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some
8 fashion shows and I was looking for fashion
9 sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America,
10 one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron
11 Perelman at Revlon, who was great. And I met
12 Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. But
13 socially not ...
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Epstein know him as
15 well? Did you later learn whether they knew each
16 other?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure I -- I
18 don't -- he would've -- Epstein had his own fashion
19 situation, so he would've -- I don't -- he didn't
20 meet Jean-Luc through me.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe them
22 together over the years?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. Yeah, I
24 saw them many times together.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did he visit the
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1 island?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he go to Palm --
4 meet -- go to Palm Beach House?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, he went -- yeah,
6 he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did do you ever observe him
8 getting a massage or do you ever know whether they
9 got a massage? Maybe you didn't observe him
10 personally? You don't remember.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean,
12 I don't -- I never -- I have no conscious memory of
13 Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I
14 never -- I don't see it.
15 TODD BLANCHE: How about Mr. Weinstein,
16 Harvey Weinstein?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What would you like to
18 know?
19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know him?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? Like,
22 I guess when I say "how do you know him," is it a
23 relationship you had kind of separate from
24 Mr. Epstein or did you guys -- did you meet him
25 through Mr. Epstein or both?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't say --
2 first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of
3 relationship with Harvey Weinstein --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in any context.
6 Socially, I would meet him because I would
7 go to events that Harvey would be at and also his
8 wife was English back then, Georgina. And I was, I
9 mean, friendly also, would be a big word, more
10 acquaintance.
11 So we would see each other and I would go
12 to Miramax events, be -- there was a couple of people
13 who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his
14 primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster, who I
15 was friendly with, and yeah.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
17 Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with
18 Mr. Weinstein?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He did.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did they socialize together
21 at the island or in Palm Beach, or in New Mexico?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw Harvey at
23 any of Epstein's houses. So socialize -- I don't
24 know that they were friends. I mean, I can't see
25 them together, either. I mean, literally.
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1 But I know that they certainly do that. I
2 would imagine -- and in fact, I think I have a
3 memory, but I can't -- that when Harvey was trying to
4 raise money for whatever his business was called, I
5 can't remember what his business was called.
6 Maybe he went there, because Epstein was
7 good at raising money. I just don't know. But I
8 never saw them. I don't -- I don't recall seeing
9 Harvey in any of the properties.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Let's just go a few more
11 minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch.
12 So do you -- we talked several hours ago
13 about your father and his business a little bit.
14 After your father passed, do you know
15 whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family
16 business, that you know of?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not, in any
18 respect. First of all, there was no family business
19 left. Start with that problem. And the second one
20 is, my family didn't like him very much. And they
21 were busy dealing with their own problems and there
22 was no relationship whatsoever.
23 Oh, I mean, he -- my mum and he got along
24 quite well. That was it. But that was -- she's an
25 old lady and, you know, he was nice to her.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: We're repeat -- we're now
2 being a little repetitive, but you're confident that
3 before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your
4 father, and so there's no -- he wouldn't have done
5 business with your father's companies in the '80s
6 either.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. I'm a
8 hundred percent sure of that. I never met him. I
9 never saw him. I never heard his name. No.
10 Nothing.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So there's been a lot of
12 conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained,
13 like, a list of people, like a book of famous people
14 that he knew. Like a, it's called a black book or a
15 client list or a list.
16 Did you know of the existence of any such
17 list?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list.
19 We'll start with that. The genesis of that story, I
20 can actually trace for you from its absolute
21 inception, if that is what you're interested in.
22 TODD BLANCHE: It is.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Well, first, you know, to
24 be short, there is no list, there's no client list.
25 Nothing like that.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there is nothing
2 like that.
3 TODD BLANCHE: That you know of.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I -- obviously.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. Yeah. Okay. So
6 you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead.
7 Tell us.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'd like you to know
9 that I have brought some supporting corroborative
10 evidence to --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, tell me what it is,
12 too, and then we'll get the corroboration.
13 LEAH SAFFIAN: Well, why don't you tell
14 him first.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Is this -- is this -- do
16 you want to take a break here because this is a
17 long --
18 TODD BLANCHE: It's a long story.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, this is long.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, let's take a break.
21 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is
22 2:03 and we're going to take a break right now.
23 (Off the record at 2:03 p.m.)
24 SPENCER HORN: All right. We're resuming
25 the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2:16 on
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1 Thursday, July 24th. And the recording device is now
2 on.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So when we stopped to take
4 a break, we were talking about what has been publicly
5 discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And
6 that's where we are.
7 So you said you think you might know or
8 that you're aware of kind of the origin of this
9 narrative.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I just want to
11 reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of.
12 I've never, at any time, at least during the period
13 of time when I was --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- present.
16 The origin of this story, I believe,
17 begins -- or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it
18 has a prequel but we have to start in 2009.
19 In 2009, there is -- Epstein is, I think,
20 out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place.
21 Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm,
22 Rothstein Adler -- Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler.
23 At that law firm is a lawyer who started
24 there in April, May, 2009, called Brad Edwards. In
25 2009, allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of
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1 2009 from Brad Edwards, and he allegedly tells them
2 that he has come across a piece of evidence that
3 belongs to Epstein, that contains a list of all of
4 his clients and victims, underage girls, massage
5 therapists, and his -- and the men who are having sex
6 with them. And he becomes -- he, Brad Edwards
7 becomes a cooperating witness -- cooperating --
8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Confidential.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- confidential
10 informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them.
11 And in a sting operation obtains the list
12 from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo
13 Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil
14 suit.
15 In the -- Alfredo Rodriguez is
16 subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or
17 something weird, some guns or something, and goes to
18 trial. And there's a criminal complaint that the FBI
19 produced.
20 And in that criminal complaint, it says
21 that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but --
22 we'll call it the list for the purposes of this.
23 After Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are
24 held in Epstein's civil suit.
25 It's in the FBI's affidavit that the
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1 evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware
2 of it after the second deposition. It's in the
3 criminal complaint. The truth is different from
4 what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI
5 affidavit, and in Brad Edward's own statements on the
6 subject.
7 The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was
8 deposed twice, once in July and once in August. And
9 in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had
10 handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the
11 deposition.
12 And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're
13 going to come back for a second deposition. And the
14 second deposition takes place in August.
15 What this means is that Brad Edwards had
16 access to the list from sometime between July and
17 August, until when he actually called the FBI in
18 October. So we're talking six months or so.
19 Rothstein's firm was raided a few days
20 after the list went into the FBI's hands, and,
21 subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for
22 RICO, and I believe went to jail for 50 years.
23 As part of that RICO case, he admitted to,
24 on the record, and was -- I don't know whether he was
25 prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake
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1 evidence in Epstein's case.
2 In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was
3 going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waitt, was asked for
4 $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil
5 suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of
6 Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure,
7 save for the first time I was mentioned was by
8 , I hadn't been -- I was basically nowhere.
9 And then Ted was called for this
10 $10 million and had been shown -- his people had been
11 shown evidence that included the list, the flight
12 logs and various other pieces of evidence.
13 Now, we're going to the prequel part of
14 this story, so then it can tie to how this starts.
15 In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution
16 agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement
17 or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened
18 there, and is -- goes to the court in 2008, when it's
19 accepted or whatever that is.
20 Villafana was the lead prosecutor or the
21 lead -- yes, in that case. And she, I think, was not
22 happy or with the outcome and utilized, at that time,
23 Brad Edwards, to file the CVRA case.
24 Now, what is -- what I have managed to
25 understand from this is, within the OPR itself, there
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1 is evidence. There it says that Brad Edwards was the
2 only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to. So I
3 just want to preface that.
4 The reason why I know that she went behind
5 Acosta's back, and everything else to do this, is
6 because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the
7 revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of
8 the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and
9 told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA
10 was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
11 So what I believe is that Villafana worked
12 with Brad Edwards, who she had also been -- he was
13 the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer
14 for some of the victims. And he was also working for
15 Rothstein's firm, that was under RICO investigation
16 for that entire time, creating fake evidence in
17 Epstein's case.
18 And she had just filed hidden secret using
19 Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the -- this
20 CVRA case, that sole purpose was to overturn it. And
21 so when he approached her with the list, this was
22 part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence
23 to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or
24 a new case against Epstein.
25 Because Brad Edwards -- or I don't know it
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1 was Brad Edwards. Because Rothstein's firm asked my
2 then boyfriend for $10 million, to kick me out of
3 suits that I had no knowledge of at that time
4 whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story
5 was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt
6 was a multi-billionaire.
7 He had everything. He was way, way more
8 wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. And that is
9 the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of
10 that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that list was
13 created -- so then the -- the masseuses that were on
14 that list, I have never heard of some of them. I --
15 not even from the civil suits that had come up since
16 I've seen it. And this is me now knowing what's in
17 the list today.
18 And I believe that -- oh, Alfredo
19 Rodriguez, so there's a metamorphosis of this list.
20 So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes,
21 that's in the documents contemporaneously, is that
22 it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has.
23 It then morphs into something that Alfredo
24 took a book, that Alfredo took from Epstein's
25 computer, but there's no computer I know. Certainly
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1 not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came
2 out as a book.
3 And then it morphed into, at the civil
4 time -- my civil case, into a book that was taken
5 from my computer. And then it morphed into the
6 Southern District of New York as a combination list
7 of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis
8 through documents that you can trace.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So the -- in your mind, or
10 from what you just described, there is a list, it's
11 just manufactured. Meaning, have you seen the list,
12 even fake? Like do you know --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I haven't seen it, but
14 what I --
15 TODD BLANCHE: So just -- I was confused
16 --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I guess my thing is
18 that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things
19 is -- in the paperwork and whatnot. And in -- so all
20 this story is basically controlled by five people.
21 There's four alleged victims that speak
22 about the list and the blackmail and the men and the
23 sex and whatnot -- And the lawyers and now the
24 prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of
25 New York for sure. But no one else.
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1 None of these stories carry from any of
2 the 44, alleged, original victims. They never ever
3 say that they were farmed out to anybody.
4 TODD BLANCHE: But the list itself --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- where is it?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list, but
8 Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So that's what I was a
10 little confused about.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. He created a
12 list. He -- so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez
13 produced, that became evidence, Exhibit 52 in my
14 trial, has markings all over it. Circles and dots
15 and whatnot.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And Brad Edwards says
18 that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of
19 all the people who were involved. It includes Alan
20 Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked. I don't
21 remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't --
22 I don't know. You'd have to look. I don't have it.
23 But I believe --
24 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what he did, he
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1 marked up -- I don't know who. Somebody marked up
2 that book of names, and I think all the names of the
3 people that they went for were originally selected
4 between two sources. One was this alleged book of
5 names, and one was also from the telephone logs that
6 were collected from the house in Palm Beach.
7 And just to finish it off, there is a
8 note -- I have some papers for you if you wanted
9 them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of
10 25 men that he got money off --
11 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the list
12 that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're
13 saying is that your -- your Exhibit 52 from your
14 trial, which is like a -- more of an address book, a
15 Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez -- Alfredo
16 Rodriguez, your understanding, is that somewhere
17 along the way he went through and kind of marked that
18 list to say --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know where
20 that book actually comes from.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that
23 book is. That book is some type of a compilation,
24 but what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with
25 type. So if you had -- you could have made a list.
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1 I could put --
2 TODD BLANCHE: But you're referring to
3 something that's been public for a long, if we're
4 thinking about the same thing. You're talking about
5 the -- you're right, it's like a bunch of different
6 types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of
7 it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly,
8 because there was people's addresses and whatnot on
9 it.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. That's what I'm
11 talking about.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it -- oh, perfect.
14 Yes. So you will find --
15 TODD BLANCHE: We're looking at Exhibit 52
16 now.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So you're
18 looking at Exhibit 52. So the one they produced,
19 they, the Southern District of New York actually
20 produced a book for me to see it as evidence, the
21 actual thing it was.
22 And I -- it has marks, it has tabs, it has
23 things, it has names I've never seen. It had -- like
24 that list -- those -- that list was basically the
25 names that they choose to produce at trial. Now, in

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1 Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents
2 where Rothstein -- his original scheme, Rothstein
3 Adler, was to place prostitutes. He had a bar, a
4 dance bar where he had girls. And I believe he would
5 use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's
6 offices, and then she might touch him or he might
7 touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for
8 that.
9 And those girls --now, I'm not saying that
10 those are the girls that came in Epstein's case
11 necessarily, but the --
12 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but again, let's --
13 like, so we're separating the evidence that came in
14 at your trial and what you just talked about with
15 Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez.
16 During the time that you were with
17 Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were
18 around less frequently, you never observed or you
19 never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of
20 individuals who, you know, linked to certain
21 masseuses or --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no.
23 TODD BLANCHE: -- anything like that?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no. There
25 is no list. There is no -- I'm not aware of any
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1 blackmail. I never heard that. I never saw it and I
2 never imagined it.
3 TODD BLANCHE: While we're on this topic,
4 just -- and again, I know we're jumping around and
5 we've been going on it for a while, so I apologize.
6 But there's recently been reports about a
7 birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I
8 think, for his 50th birthday in 2003.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true.
10 TODD BLANCHE: What do you know about
11 that?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, my mum did a
13 birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when
14 I -- Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I
15 don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well,
16 these are nice things, my mom did this book for my
17 dad. He said, I love that idea.
18 He said, can you help coordinate it? And
19 he organized who -- he called a lot of the people
20 himself. I coordinated the putting together of the
21 book. And some -- in some instances, I called people
22 that asked them to contribute --
23 TODD BLANCHE: And what was in the book?
24 Like what was the ask of the people you called?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's his 50th
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1 birthday, say anything you want on a piece of paper.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, nothing more
4 than that.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. I mean, it was an
6 obvious question. But you basically -- his folks
7 were invited to send something to you to celebrate
8 his birthday.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. To say happy
10 birthday with like, have a wonderful day or something
11 else. There was no -- there was no ask, but I wasn't
12 responsible for everybody in that book. And there
13 were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
14 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember some --
15 do you remember specific names of individuals who did
16 send letters or who did contribute?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's been so long. I
18 want to tell you, but I don't remember.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly don't
21 remember.
22 TODD BLANCHE: The article talks about
23 several names, but including the folks -- the
24 article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember
25 President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a
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1 note?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think the
4 articles -- well, do you remember seeing that book or
5 any portion of the letters in your discovery in
6 New York?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What do you remember
9 seeing?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there
11 was -- there were some portions of that book. But
12 what surprised me -- yeah. What surprised me was how
13 few there were, because I thought if you had those,
14 where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump.
15 TODD BLANCHE: In your discovery?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, in my discovery,
17 sorry. President Trump, there was nothing from
18 President Trump.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember -- but
20 separate and apart from your discovery, do you
21 remember one way or the other whether President Trump
22 submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not remember.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And the article that
25 references the letter talks about like a -- sounds
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1 like either a naked -- a picture of a naked woman or
2 something like that.
3 Do you have any recollection of that?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. But just --
5 no, I don't.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember -- so what
7 do you remember seeing from your discovery around the
8 book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the
9 pages.
10 What do you remember.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there were
12 maybe -- so I just want to say about the discovery
13 that I had about -- maybe this is an exaggeration,
14 I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5
15 million page -- 5 million documents. It was a lot.
16 And of that giant document dump that I
17 received, I was only -- maybe as much as 30 to 35
18 percent, I was never able to access. And this is
19 documented on -- at the court. And so I cannot say
20 that I saw everything, because I didn't.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want you to
23 know that. And I think that that was by design.
24 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- but you do
25 remember --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do remember some
2 pages.
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- seeing some pages of the
4 book?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you remember what
7 pages you saw? Like from -- it was from -- who had
8 written those letters or no?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't
10 remember. I'm sorry.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. It's okay. Did you
12 -- did you and/or -- so the same questions we've
13 asked about some other individuals.
14 Did you have -- did you meet Bill Gates
15 over the years?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Because of your
18 relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That one -- well, I
20 met Mr. Gates -- I went to the TED conference. I
21 gave -- I went to the TED conference and I actually
22 spoke at the TED Conference, not the main stage, the
23 substage. And I also gave several TEDx's.
24 But -- and I met him there, but we were
25 friendly and I actually did meet him, because I knew
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1 his -- I don't know if he was chief of staff or
2 whoever, Boris. And I met him, I think, once. I may
3 have met him actually at 71st Street. I may have
4 once. I don't remember if I met him there or at a
5 restaurant, I don't remember. And that would've been
6 because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with
7 Boris and Boris -- that's all I remember.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
9 Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to
10 any of his houses?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if that -- that
12 friendship was after, you know, it was in the late
13 2000s. So if I met him -- like I said, I went to
14 Epstein's house maybe once or twice. Maybe I met him
15 there. I don't remember.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I wouldn't know if
18 he had been on Epstein's plane.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And you weren't -- you
20 don't recall ever being on the plane with him flying
21 to the island or to anywhere?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
24 Reid Hoffman?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Reid is a Silicon
3 Valley guy.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Is what?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Silicon Valley.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you know him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through my friends in
8 San Francisco. I have a -- I used to have a very
9 close friend who is in San Francisco who's part of
10 that whole -- I have several, actually, or had.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So is that a relationship
12 you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Separate.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
15 Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
18 Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Or getting massages?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So there was -- there's a
23 list of multiple masseuses that is floating around.
24 I think you had in your discovery. I think you were
25 just talking about that.
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1 That list, do you know how that list was
2 created?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. That -- all that
4 stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
5 TODD BLANCHE: As far -- as part of the
6 story you just told us?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Now, I'm not
8 saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real and
9 what's not. I don't --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- know what name is
12 true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that
13 it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and
14 possibly fraudulent, I'm not -- I don't know. I
15 mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize are my
16 own, those are real.
17 But how it was actually ended up put
18 together and compiled and the purposes for it, for
19 which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I'm
20 just -- no.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Over the years when you
22 were serving as like the general manager, so the mid
23 '90s all the way into the 2000s. Did you or do you
24 know whether anyone maintained a list of all the
25 masseuses, like a running list?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there would've --
2 so there's two things -- well, three ways. So I know
3 that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that
4 he kept the names and numbers of all the people that
5 came to the house so that he could call.
6 So --because I only was with Epstein, even
7 at best, half the time. So when I was there, he had
8 like his chief of staff who could find whatever he
9 needed. And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on
10 somebody else, right? So it'd be that John Alessi or
11 whoever else.
12 So everybody -- whoever was traveling with
13 him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to
14 access information. So he had an assistant chief who
15 was his secretary, who would be the one that would
16 update his computer, you know, like everybody has an
17 address book.
18 TODD BLANCHE: But was what you're
19 describing, which I'm not -- it makes sense. I'm
20 just -- was that a list of masseuses or a list of
21 people that might need to be contacted, which would,
22 necessarily, include a lot of masseuses?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- the latter.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And did you update that?
25 Like were you part of -- were you one of the people
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1 that would add names to it? Like if a masseuse came
2 and leaves and Mr. Epstein says yes, she was good,
3 would you be part -- like, how, how was the list kind
4 of maintained or who maintained it?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Typically, no --
6 TODD BLANCHE: No.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because there would
8 be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein
9 would not allow me to answer the telephone ever. So
10 -- or maintain or keep any of his messages in the
11 office or at the house.
12 So typically that wouldn't be, because I
13 wouldn't be the one. Could I say to you I never did
14 it? No, of course not. Because that just seems
15 ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would
16 be no.
17 TODD BLANCHE: During the 2007, '08, '09,
18 investigation -- the investigation out of the
19 Southern District of Florida. So you said that you
20 weren't contacted by law enforcement.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
22 TODD BLANCHE: After Mr. Epstein was
23 charged, did you have conversations with him about
24 the investigation?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked to me
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1 about it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I can't --
4 let's put it this way. If he did, I have no
5 recollection of it. I mean, I'm sure he must have
6 said, this is all -- whatever he said or it's nothing
7 or whatever.
8 I mean, I just don't have any -- I just
9 don't have any memory. I mean, I just -- I was with
10 Ted. My -- I was like gone. I mean, plus I just
11 didn't want to know either, I suppose.
12 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't know,
13 firsthand, why the U.S. Attorney in Florida made the
14 deal that he did? Meaning you weren't part of that
15 discussion along the way.
16 Like Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a
17 good deal or, you know, I -- something is happening
18 with the case that's very good.
19 You were -- to the extent you know
20 anything about it, it's just from what you've heard
21 or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that
22 right?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked about
24 the non-prosecution directly with me, no. But he did
25 --
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1 DAVID MARKUS: But it's still enforceable
2 as to her.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, he never said,
4 hey, do you -- are you happy with this deal like
5 that. But I understood. He never -- he never
6 enjoined me to the NPA, but I understand that he
7 included me, specifically, and I'll tell you why.
8 DAVID MARKUS: Well, it's okay. You don't
9 need to get into that.
10 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. Yeah. I'm not --
11 I don't want to talk about the legal -- the -- what's
12 on appeal. I'm just --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- well, I
14 wasn't.
15 TODD BLANCHE: The reason for my question,
16 just to be -- I'm not trying to hide something, but
17 there's a very strong belief that he got a very good
18 deal. And that he should -- she -- he should have
19 been sentenced to more time or got a different
20 sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution
21 agreement.
22 And I'm not asking you to opine on that,
23 but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about
24 that. But it sounds like he didn't.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That he got a good
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1 deal. No. I think actually -- well, his comments
2 that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal.
3 And I think that the, you know, when he fought it so
4 hard is because he didn't think he did.
5 TODD BLANCHE: When he was serving his
6 sentence, were you ever -- were you around during
7 that time, like when he was allowed to leave during
8 the day or travel during the day?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never called him. I
10 never saw him and I never went to the jail.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So I'm going to ask you
12 questions that you shouldn't read into them. I just
13 want to know whether you -- whether they resonate
14 with you.
15 Have you ever had any contact with any
16 representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the
17 Israeli intelligence agency.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Can you ask me that
19 again.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Has -- have you ever had
21 any contact with an individual that you understand to
22 be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not
24 deliberately.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Pardon me?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not deliberately.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you know --
3 we asked this -- we talked about this a little bit
4 earlier, but just to put a finer point on it. Did
5 you ever know that Mr. -- did you ever -- were you
6 ever told -- did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was
7 getting any money from any intelligence agency,
8 including Mossad?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I don't believe
10 so, but I wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very
11 surprised if he did. I don't think so. No.
12 TODD BLANCHE: We've talked about a lot of
13 names and I'm sure we've -- there's some that we
14 haven't covered. Are there any foreign nationals --
15 so right now we've talked about some British, the
16 Royal Family a little bit, and maybe high society
17 folks in Britain.
18 Were there any international businessmen
19 or politicians that had a very close relationship or
20 a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we
21 haven't already talked about?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Off the top of my,
23 head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
24 TODD BLANCHE: You said that Mr. Epstein
25 at some point in the mid to late '90s he started
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1 taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take
2 any other drugs?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, he took
4 pills for his heart, I think, but I don't -- no
5 other -- no substances.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What -- do you know
7 anything about his heart condition? I know we talked
8 about this at, you know, 9:45 this morning. But do
9 you know anything about his heart condition, beyond
10 that you understood he had a heart condition that
11 affected his ability to have sex?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other than what he
13 told me, no. He never shared anything, but he did
14 take pills. I don't know what -- I don't know
15 anything above that. And like I said, he did the
16 testosterone, which made him mean.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And we're jumping around a
18 little bit.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Do you know someone
21 named Donald Barr?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
23 TODD BLANCHE: He is -- I can represent to
24 you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School,
25 which you mentioned earlier.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember any
3 conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr
4 wrote called Space Relations?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never heard of
6 that.
7 TODD BLANCHE: About aliens and sex?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. No.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether --
10 well, have you ever met the former Attorney General
11 of the United States Bill Barr?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember whether
14 Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up
15 in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't recall any.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Did you have a
18 relationship or know -- I'm using "relationship," but
19 I appreciate you don't like that word.
20 Do you have -- did you know Mr. Epstein's
21 brother Mark Epstein?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
23 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know him?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through Jeffrey.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How would you describe your
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1 relationship; close, friendly?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My personal?
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not that close, but
5 friendly enough. I mean, you know.
6 TODD BLANCHE: How was Jeffrey Epstein's
7 relationship with his brother Mark from what you
8 observed?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, they were
10 brotherly, but I think that -- I don't know. I don't
11 know. They had periods when they were closer and
12 then when they weren't. I think sometimes Epstein
13 found his brother irritating.
14 TODD BLANCHE: And I think I know the
15 answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr,
16 but did you ever hear any -- from Mr. Epstein or
17 anybody else -- that Bill Barr had any role in
18 Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida, or
19 any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard that.
21 TODD BLANCHE: I think you said this in an
22 interview, but if I'm wrong forgive me. Do you have
23 a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide
24 or whether something else happened?
25 DAVID MARKUS: Can we take a break?
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Want to take a break?
2 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah, sure.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. We can take a break.
4 Yeah. Sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a
5 break anyway, because it's to be the last one of the
6 day.
7 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going
8 to take a break at -- it's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th.
9 (Off the record at 2:53 p.m.)
10 SPENCER HORN: We are continuing with the
11 recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now
12 3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
13 TODD BLANCHE: My colleagues alerted me to
14 a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to
15 ask you. One is -- sorry, I'm just going through my
16 notes.
17 Well, we talked few minutes ago about this
18 birthday book that there's press about. I understand
19 you don't remember anything with President Trump or a
20 lot about the book anyway.
21 Do you remember asking President Trump to
22 submit a letter for that?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember --
25 would you have been the one to do that or could
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1 somebody else -- would somebody else have done that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did ask some people.
3 I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I
4 did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself
5 directly.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it could have
8 happened that way, if it happened at all.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Where is that?
10 DIEGO PESTANA: You mentioned Ehud Barak.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
12 DIEGO PESTANA: What was his involvement?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This would've been in
14 the later 2000's. So I do not know how they met, but
15 I do know that they -- I don't know if friendly would
16 be the right word. I don't know that, but I know
17 that they saw each other and only because my
18 father -- you know, anything that touches Israel or
19 the state of Israel, I'm always interested in,
20 because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention
21 to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel.
22 TODD BLANCHE: When you said it was later
23 though --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ties meaning friends
25 and family relations.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Was the Prime Minis- was
2 Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the
3 nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- were you
6 ever with them together?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think I met -- I
8 have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he
9 was with Epstein or -- I don't remember. I just know
10 that I did see him and I'm trying -- struggling to
11 remember the context around it, but if I -- if -- I'm
12 sure it happened, but it must have been very brief.
13 Because I don't have any serious memory of it. Any
14 like, deep memory of that.
15 TODD BLANCHE: And maybe this is
16 obvious --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And maybe it comes
18 also because I've read it in the press. That may be
19 something that brought it to my memory. So that's
20 also -- I mean, I'm also -- I think the press has
21 been very contaminating, so I just -- it's hard
22 sometimes to separate those stories from your memory
23 sometimes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know a British
25 gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did she --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't know she was
4 a gymnast.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. I'm reading
6 something that says she was a gymnast, but please
7 don't assume that that's correct. This is based upon
8 my words.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did she ever travel with
11 you and/or Mr. Epstein?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, yeah, she did
13 actually. I think that she might have been one of
14 Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What -- again, I know we're
16 talking about time periods that are vast. What time
17 period would that have been? Like after you --
18 like since 2000?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say -- I
20 don't know, it could be the '90s -- could be the
21 '90s, I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are
22 people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I
23 just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in
24 '93 and '94. So I mean, he obviously was very busy.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Or she's lying.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or there's that.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did - someone named Mark
3 Middleton --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I remember him.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Who was that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was in the --
7 Mr. Clinton's administration -- President Clinton's
8 administration, I think.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you -- do you
10 know him?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I met him and
12 that is -- I met him through Mr. Epstein.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And do you -- was he, from
14 what you observed, was he a friend or business
15 acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I only saw him
17 a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I
18 mean, he seemed friendly. I don't know if I would
19 characterize -- I mean, only having seen him briefly,
20 I don't know how to characterize that.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he like
22 flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the
23 island? Do you know anything about that or their
24 relationship as it relates to that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I don't
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1 have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the
2 island.
3 TODD BLANCHE: How about former US Senator
4 George Mitchell?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I do remember
6 George.
7 TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
8 him?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I traveled with him.
10 We went to -- the most memorable affair I went to --
11 well, I was friendly with his wife. Start with that,
12 with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung
13 out with her a few times. We had dinner and I was
14 just friendly, I would say separately with --
15 separately from her husband. I was friends with
16 Heather. I met Heather through her husband, but we
17 became friends.
18 TODD BLANCHE: You became friends with
19 Heather?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heather, yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Was Mr. Epstein friends
22 with, Mr. Mitchell?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Did they travel together
25 besides New York? Did they travel to the island or
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1 to New Mexico?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
3 remember George ever at the island. But the most
4 memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Was to where?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: To Italy.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Ah, okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We went to Rome.
9 TODD BLANCHE: As the four of you. So
10 Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's my
12 recollection.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And what were you there
14 for?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the most
16 memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the
17 Vatican. It was extraordinary, the most
18 extraordinary thing was going to the archives and
19 holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking for
20 his divorce.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know the former
22 president of Colombia, Andr?s Pastrana?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Andr?s Pastrana
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1 in a pub in Dublin.
2 TODD BLANCHE: And did he travel with
3 Mr. Epstein, that you know?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
5 know if -- I don't know if he ever was ever on the
6 plane. I don't know if he ever -- I don't think he
7 ever came to the island. But, I went to places with
8 Andr?s Pastrana. One was to Colombia and Epstein
9 came to that, and the other was to Cuba and Epstein
10 and Andr?s Pastrana was -- I think was there.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And what were the purposes
12 of traveling to Colombia, then Cuba?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am a helicopter
14 pilot and Andr?s is a helicopter pilot. And we just
15 became friends and I flew a Blackhawk in Colombia.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And how about to Cuba?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My -- I have a friend
18 of mine who was the cigar distributor for Montecristo
19 maybe, I can't remember which cigar it was. And so
20 we went there, and he organized the trip and we met
21 Fidel Castro.
22 TODD BLANCHE: When was that,
23 approximately?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Had to be -- it had to
25 be 2002, 2003.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Something like that, I
3 think.
4 TODD BLANCHE: There's some more names
5 that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type
6 of questions, just -- but as far as a catchall,
7 there's been a tremendous amount of public
8 information about all kinds of names, including some
9 of the folks we talked about today and their
10 relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.
11 For any of the folks that we've talked
12 about today, did you observe them doing anything
13 improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or
14 with women who were -- or girls who were traveling or
15 at the residence that they were at or at the parties
16 that they were at?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did not ever, at any
18 time, see that.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And for any of the names
20 we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll
21 talk about some more, but for today, do you recall
22 having any conversations with anybody else, where
23 they reported to you that they had seen something
24 that one of these individuals had done, whether
25 someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody
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1 that observed something?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If anybody had ever
3 reported anything -- first of all, the answer to that
4 is no. And also, I just want to be clear that had
5 anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting
6 like that, I would've immediately done something.
7 And I never heard it. I never saw it. And no one
8 ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing
9 like that.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we
11 took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein
12 and his death. Oh, bless you. That's okay. Take
13 your time.
14 So Mr. Epstein and his death. So you were
15 not, obviously, at the MCC during that time, correct.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Oh, thanks. I thought you
18 were giving it to him.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've got something
20 that blew up my nose.
21 TODD BLANCHE: So just take some water.
22 It's okay, no problem.
23 You were not at the MCC during that time,
24 correct?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: So you're going to tell us
2 what you believe, but just to -- I just want to make
3 sure I understand, your basis for belief is kind of
4 what you've read and seen and your knowledge of
5 Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them -- knew
6 him, right?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And actually there's a
8 third component.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The answer to that is,
11 yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there's a third
14 component to that, which is having experienced now,
15 the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total
16 dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
17 TODD BLANCHE: From BOP. From the Bureau
18 of Prisons.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Fair. Okay. So,
21 you know, I want to -- what I do want to be careful
22 about is -- you know, asking you to speculate,
23 because anybody can do that. And I don't think
24 that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give
25 us your kind of opinion.
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1 But, do you think that -- the third point
2 you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP,
3 there's been a lot of -- there's an OIG report,
4 there's SDNY investigation about that. Do you -- so
5 you think he was -- he did not die by suicide, given
6 all the things we just talked about.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not believe he
8 died by suicide, no.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And do you believe that --
10 do you have any speculation or view of who killed
11 him?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- no, I don't.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And I ask that because, if
14 you don't believe that there's any truth to the
15 allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a
16 list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him,
17 why would somebody kill him in prison?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In prison, where I am,
19 they will kill you or they will pay -- somebody can
20 pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of
21 commissary. That's about the going rate for a hit
22 with a lock today.
23 TODD BLANCHE: So that goes to the third
24 reason, which is kind of the mismanagement.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Or the shortfallings or
2 shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Which is a little bit
5 different than my -- from my question is, which is,
6 do you think there was somebody on the outside of
7 prison, so putting aside, what could happen on the
8 inside on the outside of prison, who would -- who
9 wanted him dead so badly that he would've, or she
10 would've, you know, caused him to be killed on the
11 inside?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that's -- I
13 don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course
14 it's possible. But I don't know of any reason why,
15 and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of
16 this, I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that.
17 If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal
18 situation.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So you're not -- you
20 don't have any reason firsthand knowledge or even
21 speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was --
22 if -- that he was killed to kind of silence him or to
23 keep him from going public about people he knew
24 about?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't, no, because I
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1 think that is just part of the story that's been
2 created that started back in 2008, '09.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's
4 the point. Like, I don't want -- I don't think
5 there's value in talking -- you know, there's been a
6 lot of -- there's a lot of information about what
7 happened, you know, at the MCC and -- but what is
8 important to me is whether, you know, if -- is the
9 idea that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing.
10 But if to the extent that folks believe that he was
11 murdered to keep him quiet or because he had
12 information on rich and powerful people, that's what
13 I -- do you have any reason to believe that that's
14 true?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not have any
16 reason to believe that. And I also think it's
17 ludicrous, because if that -- I also happen to think
18 if that is what they wanted, they would've had plenty
19 of opportunity when he wasn't in jail. And if they
20 were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he
21 would've been a very easy target.
22 TODD BLANCHE: In the time -- so we've
23 talked about a lot of time, all the way up through
24 2009, '10, and then your -- the time that after
25 Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you
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1 spoke with him?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Maybe 2016, 2017,
3 maybe 2016 -- 2015, 2016, 2017 in that area, I
4 believe.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And what -- when you're
6 thinking about that last time was that you had
7 talked -- been talking to him a lot, and then you
8 stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was
9 infrequent at that point?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really wasn't in
11 communication. The only communications I had with
12 him was in -- with regards to the civil suits, the
13 civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation
14 suit I found myself in. I needed help, I needed
15 information, and I didn't have what I needed.
16 And so that was really what it was -- that
17 what drove it, was me trying to get myself out of
18 this situation, which I -- ultimately led to where I
19 am today.
20 And so when -- when all that -- when
21 that -- I don't remember even if I stopped talking to
22 him before that, I think he was -- I thought he was
23 angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did, and
24 he -- I wasn't interested in what he had to say to
25 me, and --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: What did you think he was
2 angry with you about?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was angry
4 that I had even said that I had referred to her being
5 a liar. He said I should have not said anything but.
6 TODD BLANCHE: When the civil suits that
7 were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Did your lawyers coordinate
10 with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like
11 that or anything?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think we
13 coordinated in -- I don't -- I'm not sure.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't want to
16 misspeak. I don't -- I -- there was some degree of
17 communication for sure. I just don't know the degree
18 that that took place. So definitely -- I mean, I was
19 definitely hoping for him to be more helpful. And I
20 was definitely, coordinating is not a good word,
21 because that sounds like I was trying to make --
22 align myself.
23 That's not where we were going here, but I
24 was definitely trying to get help. As in documents
25 or information that I could use to defend myself.
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 210
1 That's a hundred percent true. And the degree to
2 which that took place, I'm not -- I don't recall.
3 There was definitely some of that, though. I don't
4 want to mislead you.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And we touched on this
6 earlier, but I just want to -- I don't think we
7 really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could
8 like. Going up through that time, you know, so in
9 the '16, '17, '18, up until the time he's arrested,
10 had your view or your understanding of what had
11 happened changed?
12 Meaning did you believe that in the late
13 '90s or early 2000s when he started, you know,
14 behaving much differently. Did you believe what you
15 were hearing about him at that point?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My views, I didn't
17 like the people he was with anyway. So I don't find
18 -- how do I say this? I don't like -- I like people
19 who my age or older, and I don't find the society of,
20 or the companionship of younger people who are young
21 people, I suppose, is really that enjoyable. So I
22 don't like the company that he chose to be with, and
23 so I just was -- I find it boring and fundamentally
24 uninteresting. That's probably the nicest way I can
25 say it.
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 211
1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So I think
2 what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking
3 about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think
4 that we -- it was very helpful and I appreciate you
5 trying to be as complete as you can.
6 I think tomorrow -- you've said a few
7 things today about materials that you brought. When
8 we're done, we will give you a few minutes with Mr.
9 Markus to -- if there's things that you want to show
10 him that you think we should see.
11 Like I said, I'm not asking you to
12 corroborate anything. If I was asking you to
13 corroborate something, I would tell you, but if
14 there's something you think that you don't think that
15 the government has seen or you think that is
16 important for me to see, let Mr. Markus know and he
17 can share it with me.
18 Tomorrow we'll certainly have some
19 follow-on questions when we all think about tonight.
20 And I think you will too. You know, we can all think
21 about stuff we've talked about. We covered a lot of
22 different areas. We are -- I do want to talk about
23 more about you.
24 So by design today we wanted to focus on
25 Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of, well,
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 212
1 everything under the sun that we've gone through
2 today. I do think it's important when we all
3 evaluate what you've said today, and kind of your
4 story to understand, to also understand your -- why
5 you're here, right?
6 So you were indicted, you were charged,
7 you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way
8 that gives you an opportunity to say -- to kind of
9 say your piece or to say what you haven't said
10 before.
11 But also understanding that there was
12 people who took the witness stand and swore to tell
13 the truth and testified about you, and what you did,
14 and what they think you saw and what they heard you
15 say.
16 And I'm not -- I said to Mr. Markus, I'm
17 not trying to create a kind of a she said, she said
18 situation or he said, she said situation. But I do
19 want to hear from you about your conduct, because
20 it's important, I think, for when we evaluate what
21 you say and how you say it and your recollection of
22 things to also to talk about that.
23 So we're going to -- we'll do that
24 tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the
25 circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 213
1 lot of, I think, misinformation or there's a lot of
2 information out there that -- I don't know whether
3 there's misinformation, but about the time from, you
4 know, 2019 up until the time that you were -- that
5 you were arrested.
6 And then, like I said, that'll take us
7 through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done. I'm
8 not -- I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was
9 coming here until this week, okay? So I'm not --
10 there isn't like a -- we don't have like a schedule
11 of what happens next or what happens.
12 But the -- but that's not a negative
13 thing. I'm just saying that that's -- so you
14 shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything
15 other than, we don't have a next step yet, so.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May I say something?
17 TODD BLANCHE: Of course, yes.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just would like to
19 put out there that I also focused on how I think the
20 president got swept into some of this unnecessarily,
21 by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I
22 certainly don't subscribe to all the -- all of
23 everything that I see.
24 But I do believe that there is animus in
25 some areas that may have contributed to how the use
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 214
1 of the president to harm him, that I find deeply
2 offensive. And whilst I can't obviously say
3 definitively that that is what it is, I would like to
4 show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and
5 do with that as you see fit if it needs to be
6 addressed. I've seen it, it struck me, and I would
7 like to give it to you.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: For what it's worth.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that seem
12 something that I can --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Of course. I don't
15 like that.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. That's fine.
17 That's great. Okay, so why don't we stop for today.
18 I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then,
19 see you in the morning.
20 SPENCER HORN: This will conclude the
21 recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th.
22 We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The
23 time is 3:34.
24 (Interview concluded at 3:34 p.m.)
25
MAGNA9
LEGAL SERVICES
Page 215
1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION
2 I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify
3 that the provided audio recording media was
4 transcribed by me or reduced to typewriting under my
5 supervision, that said transcript is a true
6 transcription of the audio recording; that I am
7 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
8 of the parties to the action involved in these
9 proceedings; and, further, that I am not a relative
10 or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by
11 the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise
12 interested in the outcome of the action.
13
14 __________________________________________
CATHY M. AYOTTE, Official Transcriptionist

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https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... dismissed/

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Trump EPSTEIN RELEASE Only GETS WORSE… INSTANT Backfire
Legal AF
Aug 26, 2025

The Court of History’s Sidney Blumenthal launches a powerful new three-part series with journalist Nina Burleigh. Together, they dive into sex, lies, and the explosive Maxwell deposition, exposing the Trump cover-up, phony testimony, and the failed effort to bury the Epstein–Trump scandal. This is Part 1 of 3, setting the stage for a deeper investigation into one of the most shocking political and legal sagas of our time.



Transcript

Welcome to the Court of History. I'm
Sydney Blumenthal. The court is now in
session. There's so much going on. We
always find ourselves at the end of a
fire hose with events. But uh one of the
constants now, of course, is the Jeffrey
Epstein scandal.
And um Glenn Maxwell has finished her
testimony. She's been transferred
to a country club prison in Texas. Uh,
and yet the controversy goes on. Well,
there's no one better here to talk about
it than Nina Burley.
And I'm delighted to have her here on
the Court of History. Nah's an old
friend. She is a journalist and
historian and author who for years has
delved deeply into the Jeffrey Epstein
and Glenn Maxwell cases.
In 2021, she was the executive producer
of a three-part documentary about
Maxwell Epstein's shadow. She is the
author of The Trump Women: Part of the
Deal. She's also the author of a very
private woman, the life and unsolved
murder of Mary Meyer, which is a big
Washington
story um that involves the ex-wife of a
CIA
officer and the sister-in-law of Ben
Bradley.
and she's written a book about the
Smithsonian, which we'll talk about, The
Stranger and the Statesman, James
Smithson, John Quincy Adams and the
Making of America's Greatest Museum,
among other books. She was a national
political correspondent for Newsweek and
covered the White House in the '9s for
Time magazine. her Substack, which is
very important to read, American Freak
Show, very well named, covers the Trump
dystopia.
So, welcome, Nenina.
Thank you so much for that uh
introduction,
Sydney. I'm delight I'm delighted to be
here.
Have you read the whole interview with
Glenn Maxwell? I have read it and I have
to say when I started reading it I
literally burst out laughing. Um uh it
begins like an Oscar Wild play but it
ends like a Tennessee Williams play. So
I laughed and I cried. Um uh she uh
comes on like a gibbering gossip um and
ends
completely delusional um uh in just in
infanalized by her fantasies
uh and lying her head off. And Todd
Blanch to me is is the st is is on a man
on a mission which is to exonerate
Trump. What do you think? What do you
think of that interview?
Well, exactly. I mean, I went through it
also. Um,
you know, as you said, I worked on that
documentary, three-part documentary,
still streaming on Peacock. You can
watch it on, I think, Apple uh TV. It's
called Epstein's Shadow, Galain Maxwell.
And we spent
hours, the producers, director and I,
um, and some of the researchers, we
spent hours on the phone on these Zoom
meetings, um, trying to sort of discuss
and sus out what the what her story was,
the psyche of the what, you know, what
would how does a woman like her um,
raised in in the British, you know,
aristocracy or close to the royal
family. Um you know upper upper class
person come to be to be associated with
this industrial scale sex trafficking
operation that appears to be somehow
aligned with intelligence um gathering
or blackmail. How she comes to be a um
procure.
What did you learn? What did you decide
about her character that led her into
this?
Well, we did we talked a lot about
Robert Maxwell, her father, who was this
um large, cruel, oish man. Um and a
major mysterious figure in sort of 20th
century espionage. um he she's the 10th
uh child of um of this guy and
uh he's extremely cruel and so I think
some of the things that
he was a newspaper magnet in Britain
well he's a newspaper magnet but before
he was a newspaper magnet he was
actually kind of acting in uh in concert
with the um intel probably MI6 and he
was a publisher of a scientific journal
that managed to get hold of all these
Russian and Eastern European scientific
papers.
He was Czech born, wasn't he?
He's Czechorn of I think
Eastern European himself.
Or well, he's Orthodox. I think he was
from an Orthodox Jewish family and he
was Czechorn and he I think is the only
survivor of his family from the
Holocaust. He left Czechoslovakia
and joined the British military um and
completely remade himself. He had a
Czech name and he changed his name to um
Maxwell. The story is that he changed it
basically because he saw a pack of
cigarettes or something that were called
Maxwells and he became he he aped the um
upper class British accent and you know
really kind of a a fascinating figure
but also um unscrupulous
um mobbed up in all sorts of um
activities including
right
pardon me
arms dealing including
arms dealing um you know working with
the CIA and the and the and the MOSAD to
get the promise software into Russia.
Um, you know, he was mobbed up, I think,
a little bit in the Iran um in the um
October surprise stuff with with um with
the Iranians and the Israelis. Um he was
just all over the place. He was very
tied in with the with the Eastern
European communists. He was ma he
managed to involve himself with those.
He was involved in the Soviet um the
Soviet the operation. He moved Soviet
Jews to Israel. So he was very hooked up
with the Israeli intelligence community.
He
was also a swindler, wasn't he?
And a major swindler. and the um you
know he dies mysteriously um right at
this point when he's basically they've
looted the pension fund of as you said
this British media company that he was
head of for to the tune of I think $500
million I can't remember the number but
a huge number of uh of people lost their
uh like lost their pensions and he fell
off of a of his yacht. It's interesting.
It's uh in her life that it's a a
mysterious death of her father and then
a mysterious death of
Yes. And and let's just say so, you
know, you mentioned that in this
transcript she lies repeatedly and
demonstr Yes, she does. Um, it starts
off in the beginning with the story
about how she met Epstein, which we can
pretty much tell is a lie because,
um, we know, she says she met him in
April of 91. Um, but, uh, we think that
they were in introduced when Epstein was
mucking around in London, actually
working for an arms dealer and and knew
her father and that somehow we were told
that that her father introduced them. Uh
but anyway, she washes up in New York
and she says some girlfriend introduced
her to this eligible man and they
started dating. Uh but very quickly a
lot of things were happening at the same
time. So if we go with her April 1991 I
met Epstein date. What's what also
happened in April 1991 is that Les
Wexner
Yes.
transferred power of attorney over to
Epstein. Right. At the same time,
let's let's say who Les Wexner is. He is
based in Columbus, Ohio, but he's a
major owner of clothing chains and
becomes the owner of Victoria's Secret
and the center of a modeling
models empire that also
uh Jeffrey Epstein is not only handling
Wexner's money, but he's handling the
models.
Yes. and he's using Victoria's Secret to
to um traffic these girls in and out and
used it and used it as a um as a as a
lure to get more young women into his um
into his operation. Hey, I'll get you
Victoria's secret contract and then he
would bring them into his his you know
uh orgies or his lair and they would
they would come out you know damaged and
have been lied to and so on. But so his
his connection with Epstein, his
connection with Les Wexner, the
connection with Tolain Maxwell, the
Epstein also buys gets his hands on his
first private jet that same month that
she claims that she was introduced to
him. And from that month on, we know
from the flight logs that Glane Maxwell
flew on his private jet
to he flew on his private jet 50 times
in the in that following year. And many
of the trips were to Columbus, Ohio.
Yeah. To where Les Wexner that's where
Les Wexner has his the empire the you
know as you said this this um garmentto
art empire right he's he's you know he
started with his dad had a little I
think a little tailor shop or a little
clothing shop there and he he expanded
it um and became extremely wealthy. So
there's this sort of weird I mean the
the transcript uh is it you know as you
say it's far it's ridiculous. It could
be I said it could easily be um you know
kind of boiled down to a um an off
Broadway play with four people sitting
in a room with the where the goal is
really just to there's one goal the
reason that Todd Blanch is down there is
so that uh they can extract from her and
I said this the minute I heard he was
going down there she's going to say well
Trump was a perfect gentleman and in
fact she used almost those exact words
right way and she was blathering away
about what a great guy Trump was for the
first 15 minutes of the conversation.
Well, clearly she had been programmed
and her lawyer had trained her
to say well
I don't think needed to be very
rehearsed in the in the
Yeah. So she says he's a perfect
gentleman. And then of course that's the
money quote because then right away as
soon as this thing was released that's a
headline on on faux news and all the
right-wing influencers are using it to
say see it he you know our our guy
really is just such an honorable
gentleman and and so they're using it to
to you know obviously it was it's it's a
it's a sort of fake transparency
operation and um But that said, for
those of us who were, you know,
epsteinologists who have spent time
trying to figure this one out, there are
in fact some weird Easter eggs in it
that kind of, you know, intrigue us.
Yeah. So, I I have some to bring out
myself to ask you about, but why don't
you display your Easter eggs from the,
you know, from the Epstein. Oh, well, so
one of the things is um I don't it's
actually a funny and you mentioned it to
me in an email. Um you get the because
she she will only call these girls and
women, these victims masseuses. They use
the word constantly. It's in there
probably hundreds of times. The
masseuses that I hired, you know, she
went to they it was all about massuses
and it was all about massages and and
and you get this impression because she
uses the word bathroes a couple times.
you get this impression of like these
men just wandering around in bathroes
having come straight from like happy
ending massages in in these you know in
the in in in Epstein's mansions or in
the on the island and the great quote is
when when he asks her about Alan Dersuit
and she says well he was I'm sure he
didn't he didn't do anything with girls
why I never even saw him in a bathrobe
well Alan Dersawitz of course was
Epstein's lawyer
And he's great defender. And Virginia
Roberts Jafrey, the late Virginia
Roberts who brought all this thing to
our attention originally, um accused him
of um having sex with her when she was
underage or claims that she he was one
of the men that Epstein handed her off
to like a piece of fruit or a fruit
plate and he has gone ballistic to try
to um deny that. So, we should say that
she withdrew the suit and said maybe she
didn't remember.
So,
and he has and he but he also says, you
know, he flew on the We know that he's
in the flights on the flights with
Epstein. He's been on the plane. He says
he was always with his wife. Um, which I
don't know that I don't know that the
flight logs actually confirm that. But
in any case, there's the bathroes and um
and that just gives you this kind of
sense of like this Caligulaesque or
orgastic backstory.
Yeah. gives you a sense of the ambiance
around
the ambiance, the bathroed ambiance, the
spa and the the happy ending massages.
Um, let's see what else is in there. Um,
okay. So, we know that Todd Blanch is
not there to extract any information
that they might possibly need to know if
they were going to give agrieve to give
her. I found Nina Todd Blanch to be like
a George Burns straight man, but without
the irony that he knows he's a straight
man and he's just and he's he's a
gumshoe. He he has no idea. He's with
he's there with Gracie Allen and uh
Golain is just chattering away about
gossip about uh her society in New York
and London from decades ago and he has
no idea who she's talking. He doesn't
know who she's
running through her jealousies and her
friendships and
right and she gets
finally got a she's got a forum to talk
to as opposed to you know the drug
addicts she's thrown in with in the
Tallahassee prison
right but there you know there are okay
so at one point he says um he asks her
about the the rumors that that Epstein
was mobbed up with some intelligence
operation and he says did you ever
encounter anyone from the Mossad and she
says says, "Well, never deliberately,"
or something like that, which is
actually a yes.
And then he doesn't go, "Well, what he
Well, all he says is, "Pardon me."
That's the response to that. And then he
lets her talk on. And then she does she
goes from that to oh, then he says, "Did
you ever meet any international
businessmen or politicians?" And she
says, "Well, Ahood Barack came in and
out." And again he let's just for
backdrop Ah
Barack
Barack the former prime minister of
Israel
he's former prime minister but he also
was the head of the intelligence
services before that in Israel and he
doesn't ask her anymore about that. He
pivots literally from her saying Ahood
Barack went in and out to well besides
testosterone what other drugs was
Jeffrey Epstein taking? Yeah, she she
runs down Epstein's um sexual history in
in um graphic detail.
In graphic detail
about when he's able to get an erection
with
can't get it up
and
well and and then she the other and then
I'll finish. The other Easter egg is is
the horrifying moment where she blames
Virginia Roberts Jafrey for turning
Epstein into this monster. She says, you
know, this 14, 15 year old girl came to
us. She'd already been sexually trained
in all the mean all the all the moves
that a man wants and she, you know,
encounter Epstein encounters her and
only after that does he become this
insatiable um uh monster who wants her
to go out and find a new masseuse every
couple hours. And she and she then
agrees to do that. She calls them
massuses. She denies that she was um as
we know I don't think he actually asks
her but we know that she was she was
cruising like the the Christian college
in West Palm Beach and you know the
streets outside of high schools and so
on and and walking up to them with her
you know her tone her plumby British
accent and talking these girls into
coming back to the house with her and
then and meshing them in this um
yeah the we should say that the actual
indictment
of Galain on which she was convicted,
which contains a good deal of evidence
completely contradicts
much of her deposition.
Completely contradicts and and and the
fact that this thing was called a
profer, right? That's what they called
it. That's a legal term for when a
defendant or their team says, "Hey,
we're going to give you something."
Prosecutors in in exchange for for a
maybe lenient um some lenient treatment.
Uh she didn't profer up anything and he
didn't even ask her to. You know, he
wasn't he wasn't as
he wasn't there for that. The profer was
implied or inferred.
Two things. One was that she gave him
right away, which was Trump was the
perfect gentleman. That's the headline.
So that all the MAGAs can still cling to
the myth of this like the orange
archangel who came down from heaven to
rescue these um you know children from
the left-wing pedophiles and that so
they can keep that myth alive instead of
the fact that you know he was the buddy
of Epstein probably his closest friend
for many many years in New York and that
they were engaged in pretty much the
same behavior with respect to women in
at least in the in the in terms of like
the model, you know, trading them around
and modelizing and so on. I have a
question about that uh that comes out of
the testimony and I do want to say it's
a bit rich that the chief defender of
Trump based on the Maxwell deposition is
Jim Jordan who was engaged in a cover up
of pedophilia
involving the Ohio State wrestling team
and many of the victims blamed him as
complicit and as a silent witness to it.
Um, and there's a documentary about it
on HBO right now, uh, which, uh, holds
him quite responsible.
But here's my question. My question is
at one point she says that um
um Trump she doesn't know
and was not present for the Epstein
Trump relationship
in terms of anything sexual.
So, um, on the one hand, Trump's a
perfect gentleman, and on the other
hand, she says that she is a worthless
witness and that she has nothing to
offer. Of course, Blanch doesn't follow
up on that. And my and part of my
question goes to her relationship with
Epstein. Of course, she had a long
relationship with Trump. I found a
news article where she is on her father
father's yacht with Trump in 1986.
Mhm.
So she's known Trump for a long long
time.
Well, she does say that she knew Trump
before Epstein.
Yeah. which she she did
and but it she may not have been present
with she was certainly present with
Epstein and his exploitation of girls
but she may not have been present with
Trump and Epstein together in such
incidents.
I think you're right. I don't think that
she would have been because she wasn't
you know he she alludes a little bit to
how she was sort of kept her outside of
certain things. Yeah. Well, she was
Here's the thing that I want to ask you
about.
Epstein discarded her.
Yes.
And she kept trying to
uh maintain her good graces by acting as
his procure.
Yes. And he was paying her money. That's
the other thing that Todd get into. A
lot of money. He does say you got $30
million from him. What did he what did
he give it to you for? And she says,
"Well, there's the seven." He says, you
know, he breaks it down to these chunks
that they could find they found in the
record. 7 million. She goes, "Oh, could
that have been the helicopter
from bathroes to helicopters? That could
be the helicopter." And then he lets
that drop. And then he says, "What about
the 18 million? That's quite a sum." And
she says, "I just don't remember." And
and that's the really the only point
where you see him sort of gobsmacked
where you can kind of tell. He's like,
"Well, that's a lot of money." You know,
like how do you forget where you got $18
million? But um you know, he doesn't
drill down into the money and and you
know, that's
that's just one of the many things. But
let me just get back to the um to her
not witnessing Trump with girls for a
second because we found
um you know in the the British tabloids
had their eyeballs on ep on Andrew all
the time. Okay. and
Prince Andrew and and so they they
really have a record. It's not online
because a lot of it was pre- internet,
but there's a record in those tabloid
items about what you know what they saw
him doing and where Andrew was going and
he was always off or often with Gain
Maxwell. They flew on Trump's plane
together from London to Pal Palm Beach.
You know, uh Andrew was shown a good
time in Florida with Trump. But there's
one particular incident that I think is
really telling and that people need to
pay closer attention to. Um there's a
young woman uh young young British model
who she was brought over at at like age
17 18. Um, Anusa de Gorgio was her name
and she's blonde beauty and she is in
Epstein world for three or four years
and in she at at the age of 19
she gets I think it was 19 or 20 Gain
Maxwell introduced her to Trump and this
is all reported in one of the one of the
tabs that you know a New York
billionaire a British beauty has
attracted the eye of a New York
billionaire.
and intro Gain Maxwell introduced them
and in this item it says and you know
the the billionaire was so he so taken
with her that he took her to Florida
with him and Gain Maxwell and then when
they came back he put her up in one of
his apartments
20 years later that girl was on a dine
program that you can still see online
telling the world that she was raped and
trafficked by Epstein from from the ages
of 17 to 20.
What's her name again?
Anusa de Gorgio.
So, people can find that online.
It's in my I have a whole item about a
whole uh essay about it in on the freak
show um in the timeline that I put up um
and you can see it. I've tweeted about
it as well, but I've put those I've put
those articles up on Twitter and
actually last weekend it that that kind
of made the rounds. Those those images
are up. the vi visual on that um on that
tabloid paper. But the point is there is
a direct link right there between
Epstein trafficking raping Galain
Maxwell knowing the girl who was raped
and trafficked taking that groomed
abused person to Donald Trump and Donald
Trump picking up picking up with her and
putting her into an apartment. Now, when
she talks about talks to the deline
people, she doesn't mention Trump. And
I'm told that this is not an unknown
story to people who are deep into the um
Epstein Trump situation. It's not
unknown. It's just that she won't talk
about it. Nobody's actually gotten her
to talk about the Trump part of it. But
the point is that there is this link
between trafficked woman Golain Maxwell
and Donald Trump and it's right there
out in the open. Now, the fact that you
have there's a lot of material in these
tabloids, there's a lot of material in
the public record. What happened with
these Trump records, sorry, the DOJ uh
files, the 300,000 pages. I mean, we
could just go over this one more time.
We know that they that Blanch and and um
Bondi uh and I guess Cash Patel ordered
a thousand FBI agents to go through the
the files and uh tag the points where
Trump was mentioned and even had to
watch a video about how to put that
information into a uh a Microsoft um
spreadsheet. We know this. It's been
reported. So, this material has been
gone over already. And well, let's just
back up a second. A thousand FBI agents
deployed to do something is like it's
like what you do after 9/11 with the
FBI. And so they they mobilized
this operation, this 911 level operation
of law enforcement
specifically to keep this president from
political embarrassment and possible
criminal um indictment, I guess, or crim
involvement, you know, proof of
involvement in criminal behavior. And
all of those documents have now been
gone through. Everyone in the in law
enforcement under the Trump
administration, I guess we should say
lawless inform enforcement knows where
his name is in those papers. Do you
actually think that those papers are
ever going to make see the light of day
now?
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