DOGE’s DUMBEST Firing Yet
by Sam Stein
The Bulwark
Feb 21, 2025 Bulwark Takes
Sam Stein talks to Andrew Egger about his article Inside DOGE’s Dumbest Cut Yet.
Transcript
[Sam Stein] Hey guys me Sam Stein managing Eder at
the bulwark here with Andrew Edgar
who is live on the CPAC floor there's
like a 55 to 65% chance his internet
goes out and then there's a 30% chance
that the j6 choir starts singing right
behind him uh so if that happens uh
that's great uh if the 5% chance is that
we get this done correctly so be it in
the meantime subscribe to the feed uh
Andrew first off before we get to your
story uh which is what we're here to
talk about about uh this inexplicably
dumb
Doge cuts at uh Los Alamos uh which uh
if you're worried about nuclear safety
not the best cuts to make before we do
that uh tell us what's CPAC like yeah so
uh so you know we're we're we're a small
outfit here at the bull workk you finish
up one story uh you go hering off to the
next one uh and then you know while
you're there you try to do the video
content for the last story for the
YouTube page uh I haven't even been in
yet I've just I'm I'm I'm kind of
outside of the exhibitor hall where all
of the Mega lifestyle Brands um you know
Hawk their Wares and and raise raise
awareness I've seen a lot of you know
interesting people walk by Hans Von
spakovsky of the Heritage Foundation you
know how it is at CPAC The Heavy Hitters
um guys like that uh but uh but yeah you
know we're gonna we're GNA do a day at
CPAC and and see how it is we were
supposed to do it yesterday but then
this story happened yeah okay so let's
talk about the story
um first of all uh I think the context
here is important which is doer has been
going around cutting basically
everything um a few key agencies that
they're supposedly getting to um and
then trying to figure out if they
up uh and often times they have and
they've had to bring people back uh on
board who they cut we knew uh prior to
today that they had done the same uh at
this nuclear safety agency what's the
name of the agency yeah it's the
national nuclear Security Administration
which is a a subset of the Department of
energy and they basically handle you
know a lot of the the nuclear um Safety
Management of our current nuclear
stockpile as well as a lot of the uh
well they're they're involved with a lot
of the manufacturer of new nuclear
components um both to refurbish uh the
nukes that we already have and to build
new ones all right so we knew that they
had made these cuts and we knew that
they had frantically tried to rehire a
lot of these people and their portrayal
of this this is the Doge folks their
portrayal of This was oh you know the
people we cut were not critical but we
you know so nothing was we were never
too much danger um there primarily
administrative people um but that wasn't
the case according to your reporting
tell us what the actual story yeah so
this is I mean this is kind of a
remarkable thing because because this
whole story kind of blew up last week
right where where everyone just realized
that there were these there had been
these cuts at this at this extremely
critical uh Sub sub uh uh agency of the
Department of agency semi- autonomous
agency within the department of of
energy um and uh and it was so obvious
so quickly uh that this had been a
problem that uh uh you know the
administration quickly backtracked and
quickly at the beginning of this week
sent uh sent you know rehire notices to
a lot of these people uh to to all to
nearly all of them almost all of them
and and and nearly all of the ones who
got those notices have come back on and
so kind of the narrative has been wow
that sure was a screw up um but at least
you know says the department of energy
it was really just kind of a handful of
sort of clerical and administrative
employees uh and and you know it's just
kind of a thing that happened in the
past and we're all kind of back to
normal now but I've been talking to to
you know a number of current and for
former officials at uh in NSSA for the
last couple of days and the picture that
they give is very different first of all
um they are are they find it kind of
like a bad joke this idea that these are
kind of low functioning or not low
functioning but low-level uh kind of
clerical pencil pushing employees it's
kind of true in the sense that their
whole role at these nuclear manufacturer
sites like Los Alamos in New Mexico is
Administrative these are sites that are
um essentially all of the on the ground
stuff is done not by government
employees at all it's done by
independent contractors but they are
they are the eyes and ears of the
federal government at those sites to
direct the work and to um you know
ensure that it's it's always in
accordance with all federal you know
safety uh standards all just kind of
operational uh standards and just you
know make sure they're doing the what
the Department of Defense wants them to
be doing essentially with the energy
wants them mo doing as well um and so uh
when these Cuts came through as they
have at many agencies they essentially
hit everybody who was probationary and
in fact it was a little bit um you know
more we don't need to get into it but a
little bit more chaotic even than that
there were some people who who weren't
even like really probationary according
to the sense that it's actually legal to
fire them they were they were kind of
thought of as probationary they got on
lists for different reasons but the the
most striking of all of these people and
just to kind of give you a sense of it
is that uh the the acting chief of uh
defense nuclear safety at the entire
agency is a guy named James Todd he was
one of the people who found himself
locked out of his systems at the end of
last week when all these purges went
through now there it's a little unclear
and just let me say that again this is
the top authority at the entire National
nuclear Security Administration the top
authority for everything related to
nuclear safety at that agency so this a
kind of an important guy right it's a
little unclear because there's so much
fog of war with all this whether he was
ever like quote unquote supposed to be
one of these guys who was fired um and
and and and you get into like what does
supposed to be even mean like none of
it's really supposed to be happening
there's no no real sense of that any
it's legal it's just these guys who are
going around like slashing and burning
and he was one of the guys who got
slashed and burned right he was one of
the guys who got locked out of the
system who was then kind of very
hurridly brought back at the beginning
of this week he's not somebody who
talked to me for the story um but but I
think like that that he was um you know
one of the people involved is is really
really a striking thing hey YouTube fam
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the comments so behave what kind of
panic did it send throughout the agency
uh when they saw that James Todd and
others at Le relatively similar levels
had been locked out well what's what's
crazy is I mean I I I mentioned the word
fog like the term fog of War a minute
ago a lot of people didn't even really
know who all had been locked out because
there were no like kind of you know
agency-wide um you know announcements
about all who all had and had not gotten
the The Descent people kind of knew who
the probationary employees were right um
the ones who you know were the were the
legitimate probationary employees the
the the new people who had been there
for less than a year um but so so they
kind of had a sense going in who was
likely to get the AE but there was there
was never any kind of um you know
sitewide notice or agency wide notice
and and you know when the people would
get the AE they'd immediately be locked
out of systems and then they couldn't
communicate right it's and it became you
know it was it was hard to know who all
was who but but but uh I mean even even
even among kind of the the quote unquote
normal probationary employees there's
still like a bunch of people who are
like incredibly Mission critical staff
at these different field offices and I
zoomed in on the field office at Los
Alamos um the sit's emergency
preparedness manager was a probationary
employee guy who maintains plans to
minimize the effects of a nuclear
accident on site their radiation
protection manager was a probationary
employee the security manager the fire
prot the fire protection engineer two of
their facility Representatives who are
kind of like onsite um you know
supervisors of the contract and and kind
of eyes and ears for for the agency like
on the floor there um and and uh and
these are all people who just like kind
of were kind of like in a horror movie
just sort of snatched up by the by the
beast at the end of last week um by the
Doge yeah and with very little warning
by the way because I I should also say
this that that you know their kind of
understanding as early as the beginning
of last week uh their their assumption I
should say was that they were not going
to be affected by by these Cuts because
a lot of um a lot of it's all been very
foggy keep saying this because this is
true across the federal government but
but one keep saying yeah but but one big
one big thing in all this is that in
theory like uh immigration enforcement
law enforcement National Security
officials uh are not sub uh uh subject
to a lot of this stuff at least
according to the initial executive order
so they kind of all thought well you
know we're unbelievably important uh
nuclear safety workers we'll probably be
fine so let's talk about that for a
second because Los alos National
Laboratory it is the development site
for the first ever nuclear bomb
obviously it still conducts research
today uh they have storage of nuclear
plutonium pits as I've understand it um
so it's a serious Place obviously they
actually manufacture those plutonium
Pits on site at that laboratory and
they're the only laboratory that does it
got you so um I guess my my qu it's not
question like if you this is the type of
thing where if you sort of
knew about the subject matter a bit more
or if you knew how government operated
in this field a bit more
if you had taken some time rather than a
couple weeks to just sort of go through
the probationary employees and slash
them all away you might have been like
ooh that's not a good idea like we can't
just you know find people to like fill
in here uh because this is a highly
technical highly specialized line of
work that also happens to be in the
middle of nowhere New Mexico um
but that wasn't what happened there's no
indication that any research or homework
or Outreach was done in advance
to figure out who would be the best
people if you had to cut to cut from
this agency at least that's my R of it
is that your R of it AB absolutely
especially as this thing that happened
last week now they are there's a lot of
kind of fear and anxiety among the
workforce right now that such uh kind of
more detailed Force reduction could
still be coming down the pipe where they
they try to do go where where they do
try to go with a little bit more of a
scalpel the problem is that this we're
talking about field Offices here and
again I just zoomed in on the one at Los
Alamos um but but field offices that are
already working kind of significantly
below uh capacity I mean like this is
this is an office that that has a a 95
uh uh uh or sorry 97 is the number of of
uh employees that are authorized by
Congress and funded to be working there
the going into this year the number they
actually had working there was 85
because it like like you mentioned it's
just hard to hire like insanely
qualified post do postdoctoral you know
officials to move out to the middle of
nowhere in New Mexico and commute an
hour through the desert to get to this
like highly classified facility you
can't bring your smartphone into and you
know you know what I mean like it's it's
a tough sell to get people there in the
first place and what they've been doing
as they've been going through these
agencies is not only a hiring freeze on
all new civilian uh uh staff or staff
positions but also you know when when
they've gone through and had people take
the buyouts or or gone through with
these Doge purges they've just
eliminated all of the positions as the
person goes out the door and it's like
it's like this insane Kafkaesque thing
where like you I mean like the the the
top guy there like imagine if that if
that had stayed there what you're just
not going to have like a a head of
safety for nuclear stuff at the nuclear
safety agency
anymore yeah um so it's I mean it's you
move fast and you break things and you
have a little nuclear drip that's just
what you so that's what I mean just
let's see what happens it's really kind
of hard to to even communicate just how
sort of Crest Fallen and and unsettled
and bemused all of these all of these
employees are who you know they have now
been restored to their jobs but they
don't know that future Cuts aren't
coming they they are like kind of newly
incentivized to maybe just get out the
door themselves you know there's there
have been people who have made comments
to other outlets that okay well you know
I wasn't planning on retiring but now
maybe that is going to be the best move
for me and my career in the future and
and and I think the other thing that's
so important to emphasize and this is a
thing that that these employees talked a
lot about was just
it's not I mean like you you're talking
about some of the most kind of like
highly specialized technical work uh
like that you could picture anywhere
they don't there are no like kind of
classes uh that you can take in college
to kind of like prepare you to hit the
ground running when they hire you to
handle nuclear waste or to do nuclear
security I mean one guy one guy I said
with you go ahead hold on
speak for yourself this is my side
Pursuit I have the I have the capacity
to fill in if they need yeah you gota
watch out look we got to run you got to
run let me say one other thing was one
of these guys said if you try to if you
try to you know teach yourself about
some of this stuff you know prior to
coming to the agency that's how you get
yourself on the list you know so it's
like uh so the the the worry the worry
is brain train right the worry is that
you you're kicking these people out
they're the only person knows how to do
it you can't bring anybody in and then
you know it's just all awful forever so
that's that's exciting that's the that's
the whole thing and now I'll let you go
Sam I know you have plac to well we'll
have that we'll have that to look
forward to for sure uh all right Andrew
go back to your crappy Wi-Fi and your
CPAC experience eager to see what you
have uh for folks who want to read the
full piece it's up on the uh site but
also you should subscribe frankly to
morning shots it's called inside Do's
dumbest cut yet Andrew thanks a bunch
man really appreciate it