George Conway Explains It All (To Sarah Longwell)
The Bulwark
Feb 6, 2025
We are on the edge of a dark precipice where the rule of law doesn't exist at least at the federal level I mean we're talking about psychopaths here. We're talking about sociopaths here. We're talking about people with no morals, no conscience, no nothing. Why are they going to obey a court order? And that to me is the scariest aspect of all.
-- George Conway
Sarah Longwell and George Conway take on Trump 2.0's grim vision of a government stripped of legal limits. Agencies dismantled, courts defied, and the Constitution in jeopardy. When no one enforces the law, will chaos prevail?
Transcript
[George Conway] We are on the edge of a dark precipice where the rule of law doesn't exist at least at the federal level I mean we're talking about psychopaths here. We're talking about sociopaths here. We're talking about people with no morals, no conscience, no nothing. Why are they going to obey a court order? And that to me is the scariest aspect of all.
[Sarah Longwell] Hello everyone, and welcome to George Conway explains it all to Sarah.
I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. And because I'm not a lawyer, I've asked my good friend George Conway, from
the society for the rule of law, to explain the illegal news to me, because that's all we got, George. We got illegal
news. It is just a Festivus of illegality that we have here
in the United States of America, and I don't think I can explain it all. I think I'm going to be completely
stumped, because I don't think you can possibly catch up to all the things that are happening as they happen, which is by
design, right? I mean this is how it's supposed to go. We're supposed to be overwhelm with this stuff.
[George Conway] I think that's right. I always hesitate when anybody
ever associates the name Donald Trump with the word "strategy." I don't think
he's strategic in his thinking. I do think that the people around him, to some
extent, I don't think they're the brightest people in the world. All of them do have a strategy of just
overwhelming everybody, and they have an advantage. Not that they're smart, it's
that they're evil. And they have an advantage in that normally, if you or I took over the government and wanted to
turn it around in some fashion suitable to our beliefs and
desires, we'd be sitting around figuring out carefully what the plan is, what are the side effects of the plan, what
what harm could it do, would our plan work? And we'd be consulting
with lawyers to figure out whether the plan is legal, and what authorizations does it require; which parts of the
United States Code impact it. And that's a process that takes a while.
They don't believe in any of that. They don't care about the side effects of anything they're doing. They're not doing it
necessarily because they have hard and fast beliefs on what a good world should be, a better world should be, they're
doing it out of desires for revenge, and just outright nihilism, and they
certainly do not care about legality. And that's the advantage they
have. That's the reason why they can proceed so quickly.
And then the other aspect of it is and again this isn't you
know even Trump can understand that it's not strategy as such it's
bullies act in an unrestrained fashion to intimidate okay and that's that's what
the instinctual source of all of this is with Trump you intimidate and the way
you intimidate is by you just com at everybody all at once and you know it's that basically
what we have in America today is I've heard the you know I've heard
all sorts of phrases to describe trumpism as fascistic or want to be fascists or fascist or authoritarian or
autocratic um the word that one word that I've heard in the past is ocracy is
what is what we were have been headed for what we had during the first Trump
Administration which I have now taken to call [ __ ] show one I think it's even more specific than PA pathocracy which
is a word that somebody I don't know who coined what what is this word pathocracy pathocracy in other words it's
pathological it's a pathological form of government I mean there lots of other words you have kakistocracy for the
government by the worst is that a real world or did you just invent that word no I did not invent pathocracy I'm about
to tell you the word that I did invent I think I because I see no trace of it ever in any dictionary or writing and I
probably should save it because I want to write something about but I'm gonna I'll for the for Bart viewers so since
they pay so much money do they pay money no this is free this is free we giving
meow for free I mean no advertisers are on it they gotta watch ads okay
psychopath psychopathy yeah rolls off the tongue I can see how this could be is if you take
all the characteristics that I was talking about last year about Psychopaths malignant narcissists
narcissistic sociopaths whatever phrase you want to use to describe them because all of those phrases are like
overlapping circles in a V diagram you you have a government that
is psychopathic because it is being run by Psychopaths for Psychopathic ends um
and Psychopaths seek destruction this is what they are seeking and you know I I that's where we
are today and it's a really really I don't think people are starting to catch on to it a few days late a few years l
um but that's where we are uh okay I Che it's cheerful yeah I
do want to kind of I'm TR I have been trying in this way that just sort of overwhelms the senses like part of
what's difficult is that you're trying to pull apart like you're right if if we were if both of us who I think have
would have Ambitions if you gave us magic wands we were running the government we would have Ambitions around po IDE not all of them be work
but yeah yeah to how you constrain the government how you limit uh the government perhaps how you how you shrink the government a little bit um
but you would also recognize that uh you had to do it in ways that were careful um ways that would likely have blowback
and so like rather than rather than stressing themselves with learning about
any of the functions of these things who might be harmed what do they actually do what is essential what is non-essential
or what is less essential and making those careful judgments they're just he's got the Twitter Playbook and he's
just like we're just going to fire everybody we're just stop up for work um now it it took a
while for and it was funny not funny like haha but like he did it over the
weekend too and he tweeted about this right I I gotta tell you yesterday he tweeted 200 times I don't know is
ketamine does ketamine what does it do that allows you to tweet 200 times while you're dismantling the government um
because it's a it's like a lot to do but they they went in over the weekend and started just like shutting down systems
you know demanding sort of ke to all of the confidential things in the metime they managed to make a bunch of CIA uh
Chinese CIA types like expose them just like out them um now like there there is
collateral damage that's happening from this Beyond just what they're doing at these governments but I was like when is
this is illegal Congress has appropriated money for these people we talked about this last week this is it
is approved by Congress you can't just stop it all so it's it is illegal it's
seems like on its face but I was like where why isn't anything happening but subsequently uh there's been a flurry of
litigation pushing back against everything going on from birth rght citizenship to the establishment of uh
Doge to disclosure of personal and financial information to Doge so is
there any of the litigation that you're particularly hopeful about like is is this going to work are they going to be
able to slow these guys down you well this is that you've asked the correct
question great news in an Ordinary World yes
because they're going to get you know they're going to win some the plaintiffs they're going to lose some that some
some claims are not yet fully developed because they need Discovery but by and large these complaints do point out a SM
a slew of illegalities I mean there are literally dozens of them I now and I can't it's hard to keep track of them
all but here's the problem and this is why I've been very pessimistic over the
last few days at least pessimistic in the short and medium anything but the long term maybe in the long term there'll be something positive out of
all of this when it's all over Trump's gonna lose some of these cases no question they may even get Tred in the
FBI agents case today what does trro mean means temp there's a tempor law you're right temporary
restraining order what happens when you file a lawsuit that ultimately seeks relief to stop somebody from doing
something like you know your neighbor wants to build a big uh you know uh something or other it's going to pollute
onto your land you want to stop the government from doing something you seek a permanent injunction and you have to
go through a trial to get that but in to prevent the harm before you get all the way to a trial you get temporary relief
and one thing you can do is you can walk into a court and say Here's an affidavit look at the things that are going on and please give us a temporary restraining
order so that there'll be something left for you to decide judge tomorrow and then you can have a quick hearing and
have a preliminary injunction and then you go on to the full trial it's just a whole process of trying to protect the
status quo so that ultimately fin or relief can be granted and then you'll take an appeal and so on so today there
may be a trro granted in there at least three cases in the US District Court
downtown here in DC that are attacking the you know the requests the basically
the inquiries being made of FBI agents about whether they had anything to do with January 6 prosecutions and so on
and the claim the principal claim as I understand it and I've only skimmed these complaints they were literally
just filed within the last 48 hours um is that the the there there
there about to be violations or have been violations of the Privacy Act and the Privacy Act is an act that protects
your and my and government employees confidential information in
other words between if an agency has you know data about Sarah Longwell it is
prohibited from taking that personal data personal information and Publishing
it on the internet also prohibited is the sending of such information from one
agency to another absent your consent and so what the FBI agents claims are is
that these the the the government is contemplating or engaging in massive violations of the Privacy Act because
they want you know they want to compile a list of FBI agents who participated in
some fashion in j January 6th prosecutions and investigations and they want to purge them and so you know you
wouldn't be surprising to see that go over to the White House or whatever and and that's what's the allegation the
problem with the the allegation is although it's probably true the defendants the government is saying well
you don't really have any proof that's what's going on and which is true because it's just news it's it's there's
a lot of speculation about what are they doing with this stuff it hasn't happened yet and so sometimes you know one one
one defense it's not a crazy defense is this is all speculative on the other hand on a trro basis you don't have to
you don't have to prove your case you just have to show look there's some something really bad going on here judge
we don't know you know you may not we may not have it all figured out yet but you can see that you can see the
outlines in the night here um but anyway to go to the main topic that I'd like to
discuss is okay what happens when Trump loses some of these cases and he will lose some of these cases this is on my
list to talk about I well this is the most important thing because basically we could be just
days away from the complete abandonment of federal
rule of law in this country and here's here's let me explain this and I know this sounds very alarmist um but we
should be alarmed this guy doesn't care about laws psychopath the principal
psychopath the elected psychopath doesn't care about laws and obeying rules and then the his his minion who is
really exercising more power with than he is the guy running
around the government hooking up to computer sites he doesn't care about
rules either yeah what happens when somebody gets enjoined by a federal judge judge issues an order saying Thou
shalt not do X okay so somebody gets enjoined and go and they say [ __ ] you
I'm going to do X anyway well what the judge does next would be to basically
have US Marshals go out and arrest person why who's doing X in violation of
a court order and bring them in and hold them in contempt of court problem is all
the mechanisms by which federal judges can do that go through the Executive Branch the United States Marshall
service which goes out and executes warrants and would execute would be the person who would take some would be the
people who would take somebody into contempt is part of United States
Department of Justice and that United States Department of Justice reports to president Donald J Trump and so what
happens when Trump decides I'm not we're not obeying that
order and he tells Pam Bondi to tell the US
Marshall service to stand down what good is a federal court
order and once you get to that point yeah there is no
law and you know why why are we pay you know and and it means why should anyone
obey the law at this point the federal law why should you and I pay taxes the government's not going to comply by the
law is the government going to come after us for not paying taxes who's going to do that they probably took they
probably took elon's us I mean we are on the edge of a dark precipice where the rule
of law doesn't exist at least at the federal level and
that I don't think people fully understand that yet but I don't I've
been gaining this out in my head and what makes anyone believe that a court order is going to be enforceable now I
don't I don't know I I don't see why the you know I mean we're talking about psychopathy here we're talking about
soci here we're talking about people with no morals no conscience no nothing
why are they going to obey a court order and that to me
is the scariest aspect of all this all right so some you know I mean it's
there's all sorts of terrible things that can happen that the the federal government cannot you know I mean
these specific line items that were appropriated may not get spent that's illegal
absolutely that's nothing compared to what happens if courts cannot enforce their
orders and if we are I don't think we're that far away from
this okay so let me ask you this because I so I I was this is the rub of what I
want to talk about although it was sort of a different example so I was on Nicole yesterday and John hman was on
and it was like he'd had JVL on his podcast and JVL sort of laid out this doomsday scenario but we were talking
about birth right citizenship and I naively you know was like well here's
the thing here's what it says like here's the express language of the cons couldn't be clearer like I was like this
isn't a public opinion question it's not even barely a legal question it's a constitutional question the Constitution is like just completely straightforward
I like read it out loud on live TV to be like this is what it says and John hman
said okay Sarah well here's the thing I I've got I've had JVL on my podcast and I was like oh no here we go darkest time
line uh and he's like but but what happens if the Supreme Court because
it'll go up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court upholds it because the letter like obviously there's two
supreme court justices that might not do it anyway because they're Clarence Thomas And Justice Alo but like Amy Cony
Barrett does and Kavanagh does because it's just about having reading comprehension which I still think most
of the people in the Supreme Court have y um and then Trump says I don't care we're going to stop issuing birth
certificates cuz here's the thing once he does it in one area you do it in all the areas correct
right what happens the point that I was just making no I know it is I know it is but I guess like it's if he just defies
the Supreme Court like I could see them trying to overrun lower level courts or I don't know like acting until it got
but like if he just says like dares the Supreme Court to stop him like what happens next look I don't think there's
a difference actually I don't think there's a practical difference between defying the Supreme Court and defying
the lower courts and here's why because at the end of the day if the Supreme
Court rules against the government in a Birthright citizenship
case as as you pause it and I think they will I think the Supreme Court's never going to uphold the crazy theory of
of that the government is pushing the case gets sent back to the district court the district court is the
court that is charged with enforcing what the law is okay they're
at the front lines and how do they enforce it just give granularly again no they get what I describe the process
basically let's say the government stops issuing birth certificates to people who are entitled
to birth certificates on the cookie Theory Supreme Court says Kookie Theory um uh we're affirming The
District Court decision which probably will have already been defied by the government um and so it goes back to The District
Court District Court says You must issue these birth certificates and the head of in says no and what would normally
happen would be that person would be held in contempt and that person could be fined and that person could be hauled
off by the US Marshals and held in civil contempt until he complies and usually it doesn't get to that because nobody
wants to be held in civil contempt until they comply and the person underneath them doesn't want that too so they will
obey they'll obey the court order even if president United States that's what normally would happen but as I said
who's going to take these people off to jail for civil for for to be held in
civil contempt and you're saying that the marshals themselves the US Marshal Service enforces if if I violate a
federal court order and I'm held in contempt because contempt is the way civil contempt is the way you enforce
you viol an order the judge and you refuse to obey the order the judge says you need to obey the order and you you
defy them you get held in civil contempt the judge will then the GU judge can
find you or the judge can you know basically keep finding you until you comply or the judge can basically send
the US Marshall service out at you that's what and then right okay so but then like so you're a marshall let's
just this Marshall's name is Joe and Joe Joe Marshall is like all right well the
told me to go do this that's what I normally do who then who stops Joe does
Trump call Joe and say Joe don't do this Joe Joe will get have gotten a
memo from his superiors saying you shall not do this or you will be
fired and does the court then go to the superior and give them a similar none of these people report to
the court that's the point this Marshall reports to some supervisor who ultimately reports to the
head of US Marshall service who reports to Pam to to the probably associate or Deputy attorney general I don't know and
then who then reports to Pam Bondi who then reports to pus okay if Trump it's I'm not saying
this any of this is legal because none of this is legal but Trump can basically take out
the mechanisms by which court orders can be enforced and you know he'll enjoy
that you know what he thinks of the courts he has nothing but contempt for
courts l i mean I don't mean that in the legal sense but he has nothing but contempt this will you know the courts
have done bad things to him okay
so here's why I think look here's where I think we are or we possibly could end
up courts will not be able to enforce their orders against Trump because Trump
will disobey them and will basically Wipe Out the mechanism by which I I hope this isn't true but I don't just doing
the math and extrapolating and conducting the experiment in my head with these sociopaths who really don't
have any limiting you know they're not limited by law or conscience or anything this is
where this is happening so he can he will not obey court orders so the law cannot be enforced and at the same time
he's going to try to enforce his will upon people legally or illegally by you
know firing them or by Prosecuting them or by rounding them up or by having the
calling out the National Guard or the military or whatever he's going to issue orders and I think those orders May well
be disobeyed too because I do think government employees and soldiers and and people at some point are going to
say I can't these are illegal orders I'm not going to obey them okay we're already we're we're going to see some of
that and he won't have actually he will not have a way to enforce his orders
not not not completely what we have so what I'm saying is we're going to have
chaos there are going to be no rules there GNA be no laws at least at the
federal level and that's what I think is
terrifying I hope it doesn't happen but I just you know it just it's sort of
like you know how I have scientist friends who will just cringe at this but it's sort of how they figured out what
the where how the Big Bang occurred they just sort of logically traced the principles and the and the things that
are affecting the system back to the very beginning well this is tracing the
actors in their behavioral modes into the future I don't see them obeying the
law I don't see a future for the rule of law right now in in in in under the
Federal Constitution I I think we are that close to the precipice didn't get
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expect this from JVL JVL is always the darkest has The Darkest Timeline and take you usually kind of feel like you
know the courts will function normally like even as we've watched every other back stop
fall away you know you've always kind of had the courts uh and the law they going to lose some of these cases and but the
thing is now is what we are seeing is
inconsistent with anybody obeying the law yeah and unless somebody gets a
spying real fast in the justice department or somewhere I mean we see this guy uh who
who they accidentally I mean they're just so incompetent they accidentally put in charge of the FBI he kind of
stood up to them a little but you know I don't see how this plays out
without complete chaos okay well that's good great great stuff I mean this is
this is how I see it right now I hope I'm I hope I'm rat of I hope I'm just insanely wrong but I just don't see you
know I just I mean I mean they're crazy these people that were running the government are either
crazy some of them are crazy others are just um craving look at look at let's
take the Gaza thing okay it's it's almost it's so ridiculous you couldn't have made it up
but Trump goes out there and basically says he wants to basically ethnically cleanse Gaza send the Palestinians to
Jordan and Egypt or wherever and turn turn it into turn Gaza into the Riviera
with probably with a Trump Hotel and everybody freaks out the entire planet freaks out because no one
thinks this is possible no one thinks it's not immoral and illegal it violates
basic international law violates the law it violate it's a war crime and it's a
crime against humanity and it's just you know how are you going to actually physically do this without you know
murdering 100 thousand people right this is completely insane on many levels and
so the White House walks it back yesterday oh no no no blah blah blah you
know they're with [ __ ] the way they always used to you know back in [ __ ] show one they used to always have to do this all the time although this one was
really really insane um and what does he do at 5:00 this morning he puts out a true social post
saying how wonderful it's going to be when we got all the Palestinians out of Gaza and it's a wonderful beautiful
place to live let's talk about Gaza for a hot second but on my point is he's
[ __ ] nuts no I know and there's nothing there's there's he's completely
beyond control right now did you see Susie W's face when he's saying that
that was not a thing they had discussed previously he just decided to throw it all out there you know what's
interesting about both Elon I didn't find surprising because I know that's what he thinks no I know and Jared I saw
clips of Jared saying this like years ago this like you know we're gonna make it you know we're you mean wrong in the
sense that is that should be an idilic place on the Mediterranean if it weren't for the political issues and the history
and everything like that I mean in terms of as a real estate play it ought to be good
but these people are so psychotic they can't understand it well these are actually people who live there real
people with lives and they may not behave the way you want them to behave but you can't
just you just can't you know how are you going to get them all out how how what right do you have to do that like none
of these things occur to these people because they are all so narcissistic and
sociopathic well part of what's funny too is like he literally ran on an an anti- interventionist platform the
America we are I mean are we going to be gritted as liberators uh like what is the the plan like the whole thing was
like we are in too many forever Wars we're doing all this stuff we shouldn't do all this adventurism abroad and now what we're invading Canada we're
invading Greenland we're gonna take over Gaza and the Panama Canal yeah just start is
that's just the warm-up act but you know what listen it's like but you're using
logic okay you canot I I know that that's I know that that's a mistake but here's another piece of logic let me
just or or like what it seems like to me though is that Trump trump and Elon are both just doing the thing that they know
like Trump like is like I'm president now so I'm going to develop I like want to go purchase other places and develop
them because that's like what he is a developer at his core and Elon is like a person who dismantles he's just doing to
the federal government exactly what he did to Twitter Twitter corre uh and so they're just like using the same oh
they know in that sense they're both you know onetick ponies okay and you know I mean but I'll
give Elon credit for zeroing it I mean this is the one everything
else I am not surprised by right the one thing that I think is new that I would
which is not on my bingo card was that Elon would zero in on the computer
systems and take those over I mean it's sort of life but it makes sense now in hindsight because like you you know
you're Dracula what do you do you go for the circulatory part and this is what
and he's he's not wrong you can you can cut off the money you can shut down the government tomorrow of course you could
also crash the national debt you could destroy the global economy I mean there are all sorts of collateral effects we
may ought to be ought to be concerned by um but yeah I mean that's they're just
sticking to I mean they have they have limited playbooks they you know and and there there's somebody wrote something
yesterday I saw on on social media where um elon's very smart in a lot of ways
but the so there was like the definition of idiot back in Roman or Greek times
was somebody who didn't understand how they relate to the society around them okay what Elon
thinks Elon thinks and and a lot of these Tech oligarchs brchs or whatever you want to
call them they think that they exist solely because of their own Brilliance not because they existed
within a legal and social structure that allowed them to prosper the rule of law
for example you could not have you know I mean all this all the stuff that that has been done by Silicon Valley and
silicon you know it's all basically because we have a rule of law where you can have intellectual property and those
rights can be enforced and people can't just copy stuff and people can't just
break contracts all of this stuff he's like we but none of this matters to these two to Trump and Elon but actually
you just raised something that I was thinking about before when you were talking about it so if if let's just say Trump stops abiding by the law we are
thrust into this constitutional crisis and you were saying we don't have laws anymore you know at least at the federal
level does that apply to everyone like or like does everybody stop obeying the
law like what's the or or or let me and sorry let me ask just a second part of this question and also let's say Trump
wants to Trump trump is actively trying to litigate against other people right he's going after CBS he's going after so
do the courts allow him to litigate against other people if he's refusing to
abide by their rulings in other cases that's a very good question that's a very good question um
I think they will probably try to act in the normal fashion and handle the cases if nothing else is going on um but that
being said you know who's enforcing all these judgments that get issued I don't
know maybe only maybe only judgments that Trump gets will be enforced I don't
know um but I have to say one of the I mean what why do we all obey the law why
don't we why don't we just go and walk down the street and kill somebody for their lunch money well there a bunch of
different reasons one is we have moral consciences right
another is we fear the impa We Fear prosecution right if
you have a legal system that shows itself not to be able to enforce the law
you lose one of those important constraints and if you have a government
where basically nobody has the moral as moral constraints or is willing to act
on moral constraints you know we don't have law
we have absolute chaos and that is I mean that's where I'm afraid we're
headed I'm just putting it another way and I hope I'm wrong I would love to
be able to be wrong in two weeks two months two years well you're gonna forgive me but I I'm going to sit here
and I'm going to keep trying to work up alternate scenarios of how you would put guard rails around this system as the guard rails collapse from the courts but
like let's say Trump just okay so he does this thing you're saying thrust us into a constitutional crisis he's not
obeying now I know that everything we've seen from Congress so far indicates that
there is no limiting principle for them on like what they will tolerate from Trump if he just yes the Republicans if
he just refuses to start to obey the courts will no Republicans do anything
about that well what are they going to do well they could say
something I know I know I know no I heard something that Tom Tillis I I I
got to look it up but I saw some Tom Tillis who basically said well maybe all
maybe this some of this stuff is legal but some of the stuff isn't it doesn't really matter sometimes you just have to do stuff I mean basically it was equ to
that effect I don't think they have the spine and even if you have a few of them what are they gonna do Chuck Schumer is
introducing a bill to say you can't do all the things that are illegal that they're doing Bill's never going to pass
but so what so so let's make it you know something's illegal 50 times over what what what difference does it
make if we say it's illegal for a 501st time in the Neco what what does what does Congress get
us and there is an answer the answer is
provided by the framers was if you have a president who is violating his oath of
office which this guy is he's you know he's he's clearly basically that's what
I mean like teritory if I can finish oh oh did I interrupt you oh I'm so sorry I'm so
sorry I interrupted you I can't imagine how that works I know right um he's basically cast his legal
and constitutional obligations to the win he's his he violates his oath of
office almost every minute now yeah he has delegated executive power to
somebody who's not even a permanent employee of the government let alone a prince officer I mean it's so it's IL and this
person is usurping article one powers of the purse I mean you've got so much unconstitutionality here um I mean the
answer would be impeachment right that should be the answer you should be impeached and removed from office and but here's the
thing how's that GNA go okay but hold on hold on just one second if he was doing this
McConnell if he's still up I mean this guy McConnell McConnell you know I mean
M M Makowski Collins like you could How You Gonna what do they do
they're not going to get to they're not gonna get you know we're they're not gonna get maybe if you got five or six
house members you could get you could you could vote it through a bill of impeachment but I don't see that happening um but if it did are you gonna
get this are you really gonna get 66 V 67 votes in the Senate it's got to get
things got to get a lot worse before that happens yeah okay and at that point you think
he's really going to leave office all right so here's my next all right next next possibility so this is and this was
you know obviously I'm I'm kicking around these other things but I I see I mean I obviously see the futility of of
trying to say like boy Congress could do something or maybe they're like at this point of just refusing to
obey the law people in the streets is probably your last Bingo last option Bingo that's all we
got at the end of the day that's what's going to have to come down to yes and he'll deploy the military against them
it will be go back to the other point that I was making which is I don't know whether
some people are GNA B obey those orders which is a good thing I don't
know but this is you know no but but you're seeing the point I've been making is as you gain this stuff out you don't
see a positive outcome you don't see anything but chaos and
violence and I mean play Devil's Advocate where where if which logical
step in this chain am I wrong I don't think it's wrong I mean I
think because I think it's conceivable I think part of what is where where's it gonna where where it where's the what's
the break in the chain that says it's not going to happen I can't figure that out yeah I mean the break in the chain
would be that they would abide by the court ruling because I you know and maybe they will maybe
maybe they will I don't see it though I think these people are that far gone I
think there's not many people in government who will have the backbone to
stand up to Trump and they will be removed hey let me ask you a different question so I see
Trump's Complete embolden because the Supreme Court right gave him total immunity from these
actions right so he gets out let's say one of the limiting again one of the fears is some point he's not in office
and he spends his very last years in prison but he can't now because he's
immune uh I mean I don't know if he's immune from all this stuff but elon's not immune elon's not immune yeah but
Elon can be pardoned what What Fear Does Elon what about after though what about after they're out of power what do you
mean when are they going to be out of power well so I mean I guess okay so so that's that in this scenario they don't
they don't abide by the court rulings and they stop having elections well I
mean maybe but how do we 2026 2026 right but so we have to get to 2026
and 2028 I'm worried we're not even going to get there but the bottom line is why should Elon Musk fear anything
well we'll get there in the sense that those days will come but he will he's you know this is this is what Trump
trump told people this in during [ __ ] show one just build a wall just do this do
all that I will pardon you and all of these people have nothing to fear because they actually have potentially
broader immunity than Trump has because Trump is why well because Trump is only
immune from Criminal prosecution for his official ads which is why he could have
been prosecuted and sent to jail for what he for shenanigans relating to the 2020 election because not everything he
did was an official act or even could be characterized as an official act his pining of documents was not official his
um what he did with his books and records in the stormmy Daniel case was not official conduct he's still subject
to prosecution for those things um let's leave aart of the state and federal
thing because that that's that's a little wrinkle on it but if you're Elon
or your Kash or your pondi or pick somebody in the government and Trump
pardons you he can pardon you for for for stealing money from a
grandmother you know under federal law not under state law so basically but this scenario only works if Trump never
leaves power well it doesn't matter he could he could issue a he could he could issue a pardon today for every crime
that has been committed since the beginning of his administration or the beginning of time by all the people right so if he ever did leave
office let's say it's at noon on January 20th 2029 he'd basically issue pardons to
everybody who D did his bidding during his four years in office let's Assuming he's leaving office not you know and
they would have B immunity than he would have he probably want a pardon himself too just to get see if he could get the
benefit of that broader immunity because those people can be Pro you know pardon
can cover unofficial acts so if if if somebody if one of these Doge kids
decides to hey let's use the payment system to send me a billion dollars to my Swiss bank
account that kid could be pardoned yeah okay okay I'm I'm I'm extremely
depressed uh and I didn't mean to be depressed no no no no no no no no I think it's this is I don't even mean
it's not about it's not about being depressed this is this is clarifying in ways I and I wanted to to get into this
I want to ask you one other question that I've been kicking around which is um and and maybe I mean in your previous
scenario like if everything's Lawless then the answer to my questions all of
my questions about like can this be done is like well technically no but nobody's abiding by it so it's all Lawless but
like can without Congress can the president just dissolve
usaid um yes
probably because again I'm I'm not a bureaucratic expert or expert in any of this stuff
but my understanding is usaid is not a statutory creation of Congress what it
does is it does dispense money that has been appropriated by Congress So to that
extent whether or not usaid exists they cannot basically just say we're not
spending money for these purposes that Congress provided that we spend the money for
but my understanding is that USA ID was created by an executive order President Kennedy and it was it's not a statutory
creation and and you know well Congress no in 1998 Congress established USA ID
as its own agency oh did it okay okay all right well then they can't they can't disestablish it then if that's
true I mean they just so moving into the state department like I guess I'm wondering like is that move legal it may not be again I'd have to I'd have to see
what this what the statute did not know that they had been that the usid has had been created as a separate agency I
thought it was something that sort of existed and that Congress you know once it's like the EPA for a long time was
not a statutorily created agency it was basically a President Nixon repurposed
some you know office in the EOB and then
you know it basically created this agency by executive order that to enforce all the en environmental
mandates that had been passed by Congress which made sense so you know president has the power to create
structures to carry out congress's you know instructions even if
they don't actually create the department so he has he has some res residual authority to do that well then
let's just take one that we where it's not even a question um which is like Ed Department of Education can he cannot
dissolve the Department of Education and he he cannot refuse to spend the money that has been appropriated to be spent
through the Department of Education correct absolutely that would be profoundly illegal you know what's crazy to me about all this stuff with the they
could just pass a new budget like like I I like if if they instead of they're
they're gonna they're going to pass a budget soon like the budget stuff is so like why not just do this through the normal budgetary process and cut
everything because they don't have the votes because even republicans in Congress won't give it to them right
well you know we we don't have I mean if this stuff all this we have
been marching in the fields of the right for decades you and I okay um at least
until [ __ ] show one there are always people who wanted
to basically dismantle the government sure from you know I mean like uh like Grover NorQuest who basically said he
wants to make the government so small he could strangle it in the bathtu drown it in the bathtub drown it in the bathtub that old famous thing
and the reason why that never happened or anything close to it never happened
is because there just isn't political support for it and that's what they you know the ultimate reason why this all of
this is anti-democratic apart from the fact that you know they're just running rough shod
over statutes and constitutional restrictions is that
we've never had the will as a people people to vote in legislators to do
these things okay because it's you know basically dissolve the entire that's
crazy right nobody everybody has their little their little things in the government some of us like some stuff
some of us like don't like other stuff okay and we all have different preferences and what the democratic
system what our constitutional system does is it provides a mechanism by which
we work that out so I have to take I have to accept some stuff I don't like in order to accept the things that I
like and they don't want to play by that anymore and that's where we
are they are doing things they could not possibly have the political support to do or they are trying to do things that
they don't have the political support to do because if they had the political support to done it they would have been done they would would have been done during [ __ ] show one would have been
done during the Reagan Administration right and you know one of the things
have to accept living in a constitutional democracy is you don't get everything you want yeah I guess the
only push back I would have to this is that if if you think every Republican would give him right they've got this
tiny majority in Congress uh and if you think every Republican would be on his
side about everything else every all the Lawless stuff but they would stand up to him on funding on the budget like why
well I you know I never has happened before right they've never actually you
know when the Republicans have had control of both the presidency and
Congress we've never seen serious fiscal restraint on there I mean we see a
little bit on the margins for some things I but if Trump was like past this budget where I cut the hell out of all
this stuff why wouldn't they do it they take his if they're taking his marching orders on everything else well they don't want to do it because they don't
want to accept political responsibility for it you think the one thing that still exists for them is the incentive
of keeping their positions that's all they care about so they're afraid they're afraid
of him because he can create a backlash and have get them primary but they're also afraid of the backlash if they take
responsibility for anything so they basically sit on their hands and they do nothing I mean this is why this is how
Trump survives committing all these um High crimes and misdemeanors
they didn't want they knew he was guilty like I mean how many times do we have to
listen to Mitch mcon say that the criminal law was a you know he he knew
what what this guy did was criminal but he didn't want to take the political responsibility for taking him
out right so these people are just gonna be ciphers and maybe one or two of them
will show some courage maybe three or four but it's not enough
because the only mechanism that Congress has to control
an executive that is completely out of control and completely define the constitution and his oath of office is
impeachment and removal yeah and at the end of the day if he doesn't go who's gonna who's who
who takes him out of the White House who's there to order that to happen and so yeah so the only listen
everything everything comes down to as you pointed out and I've been saying online the streets yeah
man you look distressed and I I don't blame you well yeah what what do we what do we have to go leave a protest now in
the streets and yeah we're all gonna believe me we're all gonna be out there
we we we have to be out there because this is where it's you know unless somebody decides all of a sudden Donald
Trump grows a conscience and and Elon and all of these
people decide to put their loyalty to this one guy aside
and honor the Constitution and the laws of the United
States unless enough people do that all at once in the in the executive
branch we are going to see essentially
the dissolution of the federal rule of law I I just don't you know I just I I keep
running this in my head and I can't think of the scenario where that happens
where all of a sudden these people decide oh my gosh we've gone too far we have to obey the law even if we don't
like it I don't see that happening and and as as as I point out
Congress can't do anything unless the only mechanism Congress Congress has is impeachment and removal and we know
where that goes yeah
so you know what I'm describing here is essentially the potential destruction in
a matter of weeks and again I I
it's I mean we used to say stuff like this during the 2024 campaign during
2020 campaign during the during [ __ ]
show one that you know we run the risk of the complete Devolution of the rule
of law in America nobody knew what that meant yeah and it sounded
crazy right it sounds crazy because things are you go out walk out on the street it's all fine everything's fine
stre everybody's going to work I'm gonna go to the Super Bowl this weekend everything's gonna be
fun but where I you know when you actually
talk is through we are at very close to that point where all of these things all
these nightmare scenarios could come to pass and people don't fully appreciate
that yet including the media is starting to catch up a little bit but you know I mean it's like Oliver garcy who writes
this amazing column every day for his basically he used to work at CNN as
a as a media critic and now he has his own not substack it's a competitor of substack but basically says you know the
the the on the ground reporting is explaining this reasonably well after kind of a being thrown for a loop for a
couple days but we're not seeing screaming headlines like you know crisis
in America people don't we have become
numb to what's happening here and how
pathological and destructive it is and how close we are to the precipice I
don't think I I don't think anyone who doesn't walk carefully in and try to
thinks it doesn't think about these issues can fully appreciate it but when you actually try to focus on well where
where's the stopping point it's hard to reach to to to it's
hard not to reach the conclusion that there is none yeah which is why you're listening to me all depressed and you're
not even saying George I don't I don't think it's that bad I mean I I've been I've been I've been saying this for the
last two or three days over the weekend to some very very smart people professors of political
scientists other Boyers and I say tell me I'm
wrong and they can't well you know I'm with JVL if JBL
agrees is that if that's what JVL is saying then I thoroughly agree with JBL yeah it's always The Darkest Timeline um
that's what we walk through today but it is it is real um we are really confronting right that people haven't
caught up I'm not I'm not apocalyptic and I'm not I'm usually you're the opposite you're like no here's how he's
gonna go down right and and you see that completely gone because now it's
like we're stri down to the last defense and I don't there's nobody there
basically there's a gap in our lines the last defense is the American people the last defense is basically all these
people coming up and basically throwing their bodies in front of the tanks like the like the Mia tianan Square this is
where we this is where we possibly are okay throwing your bodies in front
of Tanks that's where we're going to leave you guys this week um Good Luck America as JVL says uh
thanks George for talking us through that I it is something I've been trying to think through so I appreciate the conversation we'll see you guys next
week um I usually say a closing but right now I'm all whatever and so uh
let's see uh thanks George Conway for explaining it all thanks to all of you for listening to another episode don't
forget to subscribe listen to us on Apple podcast do all the subscribing
let's all be in this together way he's a man with plan got to sit down with s long will take a stand
explain all the legal problems they're piling high with Donald Trump oh my oh
my oh my he said Sarah let me break it down
for you there's destruction Justice corruption to the legal Tangles and troubles the growing fast it's a storm
that's going to last and last oh can't way tell on well all about
it those legal problems can't live without it from the m to the Russian ties
oh Sarah listen close
