by Sarah Longwell and JVL
The Bulwark
Feb 11, 2025 Bulwark Takes
Sarah Longwell and JVL react to Scott Jennings putting Donald Trump over the rule of law by saying that Trump should defy court orders that are limiting his ability to dismantle the federal government.
Transcript
[Sarah Longwell] Hey guys. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. I'm here with my best friend JVL. What's up man? You look great. I'm glad you wore that hat.
[JVL] Everything's going so good. I just feel like we're finally coming out of this, America! It's gonna to be all right.
[Sarah Longwell] Yeah, yeah, you feel like things are turning around.
[JVL] It's going to be all right.
[Sarah Longwell] You know, it's funny. You are known for your trademark optimism, so great. All right, so listen. Here's why I dragged you on the camera. I got something I want to talk about, okay? So we talked about this already, this past Sunday, after a Court ruled that Trump could not go through with one of his executive orders, our vice president, JD Vance, tweeted that, "If a judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a military operation, that would be illegal. If a judge tried to command the attorney general on how to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that's also illegal. Judges aren't allowed to control the Executive's legitimate power."
Now, people like us said, "Wait a minute. I'm sorry. I actually think Judges are there to maybe draw lines around Executive authority. That is what judges have done in the past. So here's the thing, the reason I want to talk to you is that JD Vance coming out and saying that, and because we all know what they're doing, they are preparing for when the courts tell them they can't do something, to try and ignore the courts, right? And they're in a process -- and this is important, because Republicans do this -- they are in a process of building legitimacy for that totally illegitimate position. And one of the ways they do that is to have their toady surrogates go out and say, "Hey guys, nothing to see here. Of course we can't just have judges telling the president how to do their job.
[JVL] Be cool. Be cool everybody.
[Sarah Longwell] And one of my favorite Trump toadies, last night on CNN, one Scott Jennings, he reacted --
[JVL] I'm so glad CNN brings him onto their airwaves. He really helps their viewers understand the world better.
[Sarah Longwell] He's quite illuminating, that gentleman.
[JVL] Yeah.
[Sarah Longwell] Well he reacted to Vance's tweet. So he was asked if he believed that Trump should defy court orders that are limiting his ability to dismantle the federal government. And he gave exactly the type of answer you would expect from Scott Jennings. And I would like us to watch it.
[Scott Jennings] Now I think we do have a constitutional crisis. And it's being caused by these judges. They're not here to tell us how to spend the money. They're not here to set broad federal policy. That is the president's job as elected by the people. These judges are supposed to be settling discreet specific matters, not policy setting. I think Vance is right. I think Trump has a point. And these judges want nothing more but to continue the lawfare.
[Reporter] Let me just understand where you stand. If a district court judge rules in a way that the president dislikes, should the president listen, or should the president defy?
[Scott Jennings] If a district court judge tries to usurp the authority of the chief executive of this country, he should absolutely defy it. No matter who the president is, the duly elected chief executive of this country, they should not be sharing the broad plenary powers of the presidency with 300 individual district court judges.
[Sarah Longwell] Who cares about what those pesky District judges might say. What is a district judge anyway? Do we care?
[JVL] Is that even a real judge? All they judge is a district.
[Sarah Longwell] Yeah. [Laughs] Did you see Sununu sitting there?
[JVL] Yeah.
[Sarah Longwell] I saw some choice stuff from him too. He's moved up to a CNN pundit now.
[JVL] Yeah. That's great. Good god. [Adopting heavy English accent] At this point, I raise a practical question, Sarah. Who is it who decides whether they're usurping legitimate authority or not? Is it the president himself who decides that? Sorry, this is my Nigel Tufnel from Spinal Tap. This is like, "Will we be playing Stonehenge tonight?" Just say you want a king! Just say it. You know you want to. Just say you want your big daddy to take his belt off. You can do that Scott. You don't need to be afraid of it. Nobody on CNN is going to King Shame you.
[Sarah Longwell] I knew you were the right person to call to do this video, that you were going to keep it light, keep it --
[JVL] Cool.
[Sarah Longwell] Hey, but here's the thing. So just as some background, in the past few weeks, as you know there's been this blitzkrieg trying to dismantle the government --
[JVL] Uh, to pick a word.
[Sarah Longwell] To pick a word. As of yesterday, five different judges across the country, issued temporary blocks on five different executive orders, including Trump's attempt to overturn birthright citizenship, because it's obviously unconstitutional, funding cuts at NIH, the deferred resignation program for federal employees -- since it's not at all clear that that's legal to offer -- the firing --
[JVL] But Sarah, they sent an email! They sent an email! If people replied to that email with the word "resign" in the subject, I believe that's binding law. It's like signing a Blood Oath with the Devil. Like, you know, you sign the contract, you get the golden fiddle, then you have to play better than the devil does, otherwise he gets your soul. No?
[Sarah Longwell] Oh, the plot of one of my favorite songs. So then the firing of a nonpartisan government ethics watchdog, right? And then the federal funding freeze.
So there's been either temporary restraining orders, or they are just putting, you know, temporary blocks on these things. So one of the things Scott said in that clip is that he would have the same position on this matter if a Democrat did it.
[JVL] Oh, sure.
[Sarah Longwell] Now what I want to know from you, because I saw Susan Collins do a thing too when she announced recently that she's gonna confirm Tulsi Gabbard. No, wait. Was it Tulsi Gabbard or RFK? Merkowski said she's gonna do Tulsi Gabbard. Oh, when Susan Collins was asked about this, about what Trump was doing, she said, "Well Joe Biden did it and he set a really terrible precedent. And I'm seeing a lot of people say this, like this idea that if it was a Democrat, you know, they'd say the same thing: Yes, the legitimate executive authority. Okay. Do you think that Scott Jennings would say the same thing if it was a Democrat?
[JVL] You know Sarah, I'd really like to know when we could finally get back to talking about the real issues that Americans care about, like Hunter's laptop.
[Sarah Longwell] [Laughs]
[JVL] No, of course not. And this is what I mean. Look, Scott Jennings is free to do what Scott Jennings does. But I do fault CNN's executives for putting him on air, because it's preposterous to put that guy on air. He's just Bagdad Bob. Like he's absolutely bankrupt, and he will say anything. And there's no actual news value, or analytical value, in listening to him. Unless you agree, right? Unless the view of CNN's executive leadership is that that is the correct interpretation. Otherwise it's nonsense, and frankly kind of traitorous nonsense.
But of course none of this is about Biden. And if it were about Biden, I mean, then we we would have seen it about Biden, right? And Biden adhered to all of the laws. Biden even just sat there on his hands over the DOJ squashing the part two of the report on Trump's confidential documents case.
[Sarah Longwell] Well, here's the thing. I've seen this argument come up a lot, because two things are going on here. And it's not about Scott Jennings per se, it's about normalizing the idea that Trump is within his right to defy a court order, right? Like the minions are out trying to say that this is fine. While simultaneously you're seeing arguments like, "Well, Biden did this. And he set this precedent." And I really want to push back on this idea. Okay, here's what Biden did. I was mad when he did it, too. What Biden did, it was on student loan forgiveness, and he said, "The Supreme Court blocked me, but it didn't stop me." And by the way, you know what Scott Jennings tweeted when Joe Biden did that? He said that --
[JVL] Did he say, "I'm sorry, but President Biden is within his legitimate authority." Is that what he said?
[Sarah Longwell] He said, "Rough day for the 'America is hurtling toward a dictatorship!" crowd."
[JVL] Oh wow! So he thinks that means dictatorship. Yikes!
[Sarah Longwell] So anyway, but the disingenuousness of Scott Jennings, notwithstanding.
Here's the thing about what Biden did. I thought it was crappy when he came out and he was like, "You know, it's not going to stop me." But here's what he didn't do. He didn't just defy the order. He didn't just forgive all the student loans in a direct attack like saying. "I'm not going to listen to what the court said." What he did was he went back to the drawing board, and tried to come up with a different legal theory that the courts might go for. He accepted the ruling, and went back with his lawyers, and was like, "Let's try this again. Let's come at this from a different angle."
That is not what Trump is doing! Everybody listen to me! This is not what Trump is doing. Trump is saying if the courts rule against him -- just a lowly District Court, which by the way, I don't know why, he can appeal it if he doesn't like it, and it will go up to the Supreme Court, eventually. That's what will happen. But if they just decide, "No, we're just going to defy it," that is a constitutional crisis, is it not? Am I getting this wrong?
[JVL] No, you're right of course. And you know, it's actually worse than even you've portrayed it. Because this afternoon, we had report from NBC news ,that what happened with the FEMA funding is a judge issued a temporary restraining order saying, "You cannot freeze disbursements from FEMA; you have to be giving those out." The Trump Administration just defied it. They just kept holding on to the FEMA disbursements. So they went back to court and the judge said, "No, you have to follow my order." This is the, "You can't not follow the order." And then NBC News got a hold of a memo sent out by a senior official in FEMA saying, "No. Hold those. Don't disburse any funds." And so as the people from NBC noted, what you have here is a scenario in which you have a bunch of civil service bureaucrats at FEMA who are being told, "If you don't break the law, we will fire you; but if you do break the law, I guess just hope that Daddy Trump will pardon you? You'll be like Eric Adams. It'll all be cool. Be cool, Daddyo." And this is Gangster government. AND I'M NOT CLEAR AS TO WHY IT WOULDN'T WORK THIS WAY, BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT FUCKING INVENTED CRIMINAL IMMUNITY FOR THE PRESIDENT! And if you do that, this is what you get. It isn't like, "Oh, this is an unintended consequence. How could we possibly have known?" Like this is literally, you had a guy stand in front of you and say say, "Uh well, I mean, I guess if the president sent Seal Team 6 to assassinate the guy he was running against, it would probably be cool." And then they said, "Yeah, okay, that sounds good. We'll sign off on that. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?" Sarah, this is where we live now. And it's because all of this that -- I've written a bunch about this -- I'm pretty convinced the Supreme Court will not rule against him, because at this point they understand that if they do it, and he defies them, what are they going to do about it? And that's the real end, right? I mean, that is the point where all the floodgates are opened, and we are in actual dictatorship autocracy, because the Constitution has just been been burned. And I think John Roberts isn't going to want to take that chance. My suspicion is that he will try to find some lawyerly way to let Trump do whatever he wants, while saying that he didn't have to, he didn't have to let Trump do whatever he wants, he chose to, and at some point in the unspecified future he could choose to stop Trump.
[Sarah Longwell] I disagree with you.
[JVL] Okay. That's new.
[Sarah Longwell] I think that Amy Coney Barrett [laughs], I do not think the Supreme Court -- I agree with you that John Roberts will do what he always does, which is try to find some halfstep way, but I do think they will do something to rain Trump in. And they'll probably do some kind of half a loaf thing. But I do think they want to steer us away from a constitutional crisis. And I also don't like the idea of taking the bleakest view on this, in part because I don't like the idea of all of us just saying, "Yeah, country's over. Let's have no expectations for the Supreme Court." Because here's the thing man. I don't know who needs to learn this, Scott Jennings, [holds up chart] this is how government works, okay? The checks and balance of the Judiciary, right? The Executive branch=. And you have Congress. I don't know about you, but I came up in Republican circles where they're always like, "We need to do more civic education. People don't understand the way things work." Here's how it works. This is called checks and balances, right? They're co-equal branches of government .
[JVL] Graphic design is your passion.
[Sarah Longwell] [Laughs] I just did this just now.
[JVL] Are you going to pull out your pocket Constitution next?
[Sarah Longwell] Don't make me. I will pull out the Constitution.
[JVL] Can I break you? Do I have permission to break you on YouTube? Normally we save JVL breaking Sarah for the secret show. Here's why the Supreme Court should NOT stand in the way of presidential authority and executive power. [Adopting heavy British accent] Because the Constitution provides a remedy in case the executive overreaches. The legislative branch can impeach, convict and remove an overzealous chief executive. Mwahahahaha! It's over.
[Sarah Longwell] You didn't break me! Hold on a second.
[JVL] All of the pieces of the Constitution are now dead letters. They are dead letters.
[Sarah Longwell] All I wanted was 15 minutes to make fun of Scott Jennings, draw a poor man's thing about the way the checks and balances work. That's all I wanted to do. The world is still moving. There will be elections in 2026. And before any of you jump in the comments to be like, "Naive Sarah, we're not having elections." Okay guys, well then what are you doing watching a political podcast if it's all ending? Just go fishing or something. Go do something else with your lives. What are we all doing here if we're not trying to stop the march of autocracy on our liberal democracy. We're trying to do that, right? So let's not say it's all over. Let's figure out what we're going to do about it. And (1) is to demand that Congress assert their power, (2) is to make sure Democrats are in charge in 2026 so that they can impeach him, and (3) to demand that the Judiciary do the things that it is supposed to do, which is to uphold its lower courts when the lower courts are correct. Like when they're right. And to say that the judicial branch still matters. It is there to put a check on the Executive branch. It's literally its role.
[JVL] Sarah, do you want to know why I'm here? You know why I'm here doing this instead of out fishing? One reason is so that when you and I are hauled off to the camps, and we're put in side-by-side cells in Guantanamo, I can sit in my cell and I could say, "Told you so; told you so, over and over until you want to murder me for an extra pack of cigarettes --
[Sarah Longwell] We don't have to be in cells for that to happen, okay? We're there.
[JVL] [Laughs]
[Sarah Longwell] All right. Fine! That's all I got, man. That's all I got.
[JVL] Good luck America!