Anti-Anti-Nazi Barbarian Hordes are Knocking Down the Gates

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United States Department of Justice
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 25, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General
Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy
Attorney General
Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent
Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell:
David Markus
Leah Saffian
Melissa Madrigal
Page 217
1 I N T E R V I E W
2 ***
3 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. It is
4 Friday, July 25th, the time is 9:24 a.m. My name is
5 Spencer R. Horn. I'm the Assistant Special Agent in
6 Charge of FBI New York. And we are here for a
7 recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
9 How are you?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Good. So the proffer
12 agreement we signed yesterday, I just -- there's a
13 place on it for us to all kind of initial. It's
14 exactly the same document and you'll see your
15 signature. If you can just initial right to the left
16 of -- right here.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Here?
18 TODD BLANCHE: Right there.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, it's okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Markus will --
21 DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- initial as well. Thank
23 you.
24 And just to kind of -- before we get
25 going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that
Page 218
1 were here when we met yesterday are here today. So
2 there's no -- I'm not going to do formal
3 introductions, because it's exactly the same group of
4 folks.
5 So we're continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our
6 discussion of yesterday. And the same -- the same
7 kind of rules apply. If you -- we'll take breaks, if
8 you need to talk to Mr. Markus or your lawyers, no --
9 absolutely no problem. Just let me know. I'll try
10 to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if
11 there's anything that I say that's confusing,
12 definitely interrupt me.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will. Thank you.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So I think the easiest
15 thing to start with is, is there anything that we
16 talked about yesterday that -- we're going to go
17 through some more names. I think that we -- that's
18 one of the places that we -- that we interrupted,
19 just because there's a lot of names.
20 But aside from additional names, is there
21 anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that
22 we talked about yesterday or anything that you
23 thought maybe you remember more of or not?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some more names did
25 come to me in the night, and I did have some
Page 219
1 additional memories just for clarity. I believe I
2 said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have
3 asked from Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that I
4 was -- the allegation at least is that I met
5 in Mar-a-Lago and so I felt that I needed to address
6 that. And I didn't want to leave that hanging
7 because that seems weird under the circumstances.
8 And also -- but I couldn't remember anyone
9 and -- maybe, you know, it's a long period of time.
10 So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I
11 just don't -- I don't remember anybody that I would
12 have. But it's not impossible that I might have
13 asked someone from there.
14 TODD BLANCHE: I don't -- I don't know
15 exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think
16 what you said yesterday is different than what you
17 just said. So, yes. There's --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I just wanted
19 to be -- I just didn't want to feel that I had said
20 no to something and that it -- and --
21 TODD BLANCHE: definitely had
22 has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that
23 you received a treatment of her -- from her at some
24 point, and that you recruited her to meet
25 Mr. Epstein.
DOJ REDACTION
DOJ REDACTION
Page 220
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know, affirmatively,
3 whether that's true or false, or do you just not have
4 a memory either way?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't believe
6 it's true. But I know that I did go to spas and if I
7 met someone, I did ask if they're (indiscernible) --
8 so I don't -- in the realms of possibility, it could
9 have, but I have no memory of it.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I don't believe
12 that that it's how it went down, but I don't want
13 to --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to talk
15 about -- we talked a little bit yesterday about the
16 financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein,
17 kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word,
18 for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and
19 ending up at around $250,000 per year.
20 There's -- as you know, from your trial,
21 there's banking information that shows a ton of money
22 being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years.
23 And I think totaling something like
24 $30 million, something like this. What's -- what's
25 the -- why was that money sent to you? Like, what
Page 221
1 was that for?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
3 don't -- I dispute the characterization that the
4 money was sent to me.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So tell me what -- I
6 am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was
7 said at trial on that issue. So what -- what -- what
8 is the -- what do you dispute about that?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe -- I
10 don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I
11 ever saw what they accused me of, but my belief is
12 that that money also contained money that was for a
13 helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and I --
14 was never mine. And --
15 DAVID MARKUS: In other words, money was
16 sent to you that you then used to purchase things
17 or...
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even
19 sure that I purchased it. So the accounts -- those
20 accounts would be controlled by his accountants.
21 And --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Even accounts in your name,
23 you're saying, or one of your entities?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even
25 sure I knew of all the entities. I'm not -- I
Page 222
1 don't -- it -- maybe I did, contemporaneously, but I
2 simply wouldn't know today. So if there was an
3 entity, let's say account X, if I really set that up
4 myself or whether they said, we're doing this and the
5 money's coming or whatever. But in no substantive
6 way -- I can't think of the right word.
7 DAVID MARKUS: Did you have control
8 over --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had no control, is
10 what I'm saying.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So when -- when the
12 government -- when there was testimony or the
13 government admitted evidence that showed, for
14 example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to
15 you, okay, what you're saying is that that may --
16 that happened, but that the you there, wasn't money
17 that -- he wasn't giving you money.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to say
19 that for everything, because maybe there were
20 accounts that money was sent to me. But I can say
21 that I know -- like the helicopter, I can
22 definitively say. I'd have to look at all of them to
23 be accurate for you.
24 But to explain how or why I could be
25 receiving monies, and I certainly did. So I'm not
Page 223
1 disputing all of it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: But when you said -- let's
3 go back and look. Why would -- why did money have to
4 go into your accounts or account that was controlled
5 by others, but in your name to, like, purchase a
6 helicopter?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, that's a very good
8 question. I don't -- I'm not sure I know the answer
9 to that. I don't.
10 TODD BLANCHE: So let me ask this maybe a
11 different way that gets to the issue, right? So the
12 accusation by the government, based upon the evidence
13 they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions and
14 millions of dollars over the years.
15 And the reason why he paid you that is
16 because you were performing an extraordinary service
17 for him by recruiting young women, many of whom were
18 underage to -- so that he could sexually abuse them.
19 Okay. That's their -- that's their allegation.
20 Okay.
21 From what you said yesterday and from what
22 I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for
23 a lot in your life.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Your flights, where you
Page 224
1 stayed with him. I mean, he didn't expect you to
2 reimburse him along the way for food and, you know,
3 so he took care of you for many years.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is true.
5 TODD BLANCHE: On top of that, he actually
6 paid you a salary as we talked about $25,000 to
7 $250,000. What else did he give you? Or what
8 purchase -- like, was there a time when he gave you a
9 million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus? Or what --
10 what financial benefit did you receive from him,
11 besides what we've already talked about. We don't
12 have to talk about what, you know, so --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I got it. I got it.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my goal, always,
16 was to become independent, independently, financially
17 secure and work for myself. I've never been one to
18 not work. And in that regard, over the course of my
19 friendship and my working relationship with Epstein,
20 I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him
21 everywhere, just to be freestanding.
22 And the -- in -- with that in mind, I
23 wanted to have my own businesses or my own money
24 coming in independent and separate from any salary
25 that I received from him.
Page 225
1 And I needed that for my self-esteem.
2 I've never been -- I mean, obviously salary and it
3 was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling
4 the sum of money, because it's huge, but I was
5 brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own,
6 you know.
7 The first time -- so I would either
8 propose businesses to him or he would actually
9 suggest why didn't I do something in the first deal
10 that we did, or the first business that we had or I
11 had and that he financed for me.
12 So he gave -- he loaned me all the money
13 to enable me to do this and then I reaped the
14 profits, which I don't remember now, because we
15 varied over the deals that we did, that I would give
16 him 50 percent or 25.
17 It was sort of -- it was random.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can tell you
20 what it is, so we can compare it.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Go ahead.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was in Palm
23 Beach actually, and it was in real estate. And they
24 sold what was the grounds originally of an estate
25 called the Phipps Estate. And then they converted
Page 226
1 the land that came with that estate into houses. And
2 I did, I think, two or maybe -- I can't remember now,
3 but certainly one and maybe two, possibly three. I
4 don't think so. I think two, that then were flipped
5 and there was a profit.
6 So that would be an example of that. But
7 I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to
8 do that business transaction and then I reaped the
9 profits.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- but when --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that's millions of
12 dollars.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- when a financial
14 investigator like, the FBI looks at accounts, they
15 don't know kind of the conversations you're having.
16 They just see the money.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So in those cases, when
19 that happened, when he would -- when he financed that
20 with you, would he send money to you? So does that
21 explain some of the money? Like, I guess --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe -- I think
23 it does. I think, for instance, there were two
24 Gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and
25 Aston Martin. You can look it up, I think, if I'm
Page 227
1 right. That had the doors that would come up like
2 this --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There were only a very
5 limited number that were made. So I knew that we
6 could get those and flip them right within 24 hours,
7 for example.
8 Also my -- here's another example of
9 something that you guys wouldn't have known about is
10 I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67
11 banking license and became a broker for like a new
12 (inaudible). And then -- because I was day trading.
13 Everything I had I day traded with -- through an
14 account.
15 And I think I was lucky more than smart,
16 but I made quite a lot of money doing that. And so
17 --
18 TODD BLANCHE: When was that? Like what
19 -- approximate time --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Again, that's in the
21 '90s again. I don't -- oh, wait. I think -- well,
22 you can find it, because it'll be my banking license,
23 right? That'll be something that you can look up,
24 probably.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
Page 228
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what whatever that
2 is -- and I just don't remember when that is. I'm
3 sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so for an example,
6 I was -- I was doing really, really, really well.
7 And so he was like, how do you do that? Well, how
8 are you -- what are you -- why are you investing in,
9 I don't know, Apple when nobody liked Apple. This
10 is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't
11 know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him.
12 But my family --
13 DAVID MARKUS: Don't charge her with
14 insider trading.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Please -- no. I'm not
16 trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness. Please, no.
17 I had no --
18 DAVID MARKUS: It was just a joke.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: It was a joke.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. No. All right.
22 But my -- going back to my family, my dad
23 had given me an account when I was 12 and I had
24 always an interest in business and finance, not --
25 not very sophisticated. I'm not suggesting that.
Page 229
1 And so I like to trade and so I did and I
2 did well. And so then I would tell him what I was
3 doing. Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me
4 he matched me in some other accounts that he had.
5 Because he did a lot of -- he -- my observation, to
6 go back to what he did, I observed him personally and
7 have recollection -- personal recollection of him
8 trading this money, lots. Tens of millions, hundreds
9 of millions of dollars.
10 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that he was
11 trading for other people --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- or that was his own
14 money?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want also to clarify
16 something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner
17 was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time
18 period from when I met him in '91, right, all the way
19 until-- well, 'til, I don't know.
20 Because I wasn't that friendly with --
21 well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told
22 me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with
23 me, because of my family problems. You know, whether
24 that was --
25 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the problems that
Page 230
1 your father's company had with --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- embezzlement or
4 allegations of --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Yes. That's
6 what I'm talking about.
7 And now, actually today -- not
8 contemporaneously, but today I don't believe that
9 that's even true. I think it was used as a means to
10 not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It
11 was just a way to park me.
12 And I believe that now, because within the
13 discovery there was a lot of -- well, not a lot, but
14 there was some indications that he would actively
15 tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from
16 me, and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type.
17 That's in the discovery somewhere.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the
19 government had evidence that, even as late as 2007,
20 he paid you a lot of money.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that? What
22 was the money?
23 TODD BLANCHE: Like several -- millions of
24 millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that for?
Page 231
1 Was it -- was that the helicopter?
2 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that's my
3 question for you.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
5 TODD BLANCHE: I don't know.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So in 2007 --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that was
9 probably the helicopter. That could have been --
10 TODD BLANCHE: That was what?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That could have been
12 the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like
13 that, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't personally have
14 any memory of receiving a check from him for
15 $7 million. I just -- I just don't. But I would
16 have to -- I know I -- so the answer to your
17 question, to be precise --
18 DAVID MARKUS: You would remember if it
19 went into your pocket --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would remember if it
21 went -- I would -- he never paid me to -- for
22 services that you just described, $7 million, to --
23 for any nefarious reason.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. I think I understand
25 what you've said about being on the payroll and
Page 232
1 helping -- him helping you with businesses, and
2 giving you a lot of life things along the way. You
3 travel with him, you ate with him. He's, you know,
4 but there is the -- these massive amounts of money,
5 one-time payments that I --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I don't -- you'd
7 have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that
8 came into my account or I had any control. I have no
9 memory of that. I have no -- no --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but if there's
11 records that show it coming into your account, it
12 sounds like what you're saying is that not -- putting
13 aside your -- you have no memory of that money being
14 yours.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Like you didn't -- that
17 money is not somewhere --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wouldn't be
19 like, oh, yippee, let me go. I got $7 million. I'm
20 going to go buy myself a yacht. No. Or I don't
21 know, something else or move it to some other -- no.
22 I don't think -- I don't think, if you
23 look -- you'll have to check, obviously you will. I
24 don't think you'll find that money moving in any --
25 to any account, either of mine or it shouldn't show,
Page 233
1 I don't believe anyway. As far as I recollect, it
2 wouldn't show me spending it.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, that makes
6 sense. I mean, I think if -- I don't think there's
7 any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial,
8 that -- that that the money went in.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, $7 million in
10 when, what year?
11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, there's several
12 years; in 2007.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And?
14 TODD BLANCHE: 2002, there was $5 million
15 that you were paid in 2002.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well, I'd have
17 to -- I don't -- I don't remember. But -- okay. So
18 there's -- there would be another large sum, but it
19 wouldn't have come from him later. But it had
20 nothing to do --
21 TODD BLANCHE: The biggest one was in
22 1999. There's over $18 million. $18.3 million.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that
24 is.
25 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- but you --
Page 234
1 you're -- but what you're saying, it sounds like, and
2 if you don't know, we're going to -- we can move on.
3 But when we're talking about $18.3 million
4 in '99, $5 million in -- three years later in 2002,
5 $7.4 million in 2007. That -- those -- that money
6 adds up to around $30 million.
7 You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein.
8 Meaning, that's not money you received for your
9 benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe any of
11 that was my money. Now, I do -- I just -- like I
12 said, we did do these things --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. I understand that.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - with the cars.
15 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as --
17 TODD BLANCHE: But --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if any of
19 that money, some of it -- if it moves, some of that
20 may have come from the car or a house that was sold
21 that I had an interest in with him. That's possible.
22 But I don't think this money is mine.
23 LEAH SAFFIAN: But also, the record should
24 reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine's name
25 was used, for example, Air Ghislaine. Her name was
Page 235
1 in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with
2 her. And if you pull signatures --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
4 LEAH SAFFIAN: -- there's no evidence for
5 that.
6 TODD BLANCHE: No. My -- what I'm trying
7 to just make sure I -- that I understand, is that the
8 idea that you were paid $30 million between '99 and
9 2007, in order to -- by Mr. Epstein to reward you for
10 recruiting young women. That is in your -- you're
11 saying that is categorically, completely false?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically
13 false, correct.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to just --
15 we went through several individuals yesterday and I
16 want to go through just a couple of more names and
17 ask if you -- if you know them. And if you do know
18 them, how you know them.
19 Do you know Elon Musk?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you meet
22 Mr. Musk?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him in -- I
24 don't remember the year, but it's going to be in
25 2010, '11, something like that, I think, if my memory
Page 236
1 serves.
2 And I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the
3 co-founder of Google. And Sergey had arranged for --
4 it was for his birthday.
5 And we were -- or a bunch of us, I don't
6 even remember how many we were, but not many of us.
7 Maybe -- I don't know. If I say 40, I
8 could be wrong. If it was 30 or 50, I don't
9 remember. I'm sorry.
10 Went to another friend's island. Somebody
11 called Mr. Pigozzi in the Caribbean and -- not with
12 Epstein, he was not there, to celebrate Sergey's
13 birthday. And we were there together for, I want to
14 say, three or four days, something like that in my
15 memory. And Mr. Musk was present for that.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And that was the first time
17 you met him, as far as you know?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: As far as I remember,
19 yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet -- did you
21 know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if I've
23 ever met him. I know that he has a brother and I
24 don't think I met him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that time in --
Page 237
1 around 2010, on the island in the Caribbean for a
2 couple days, did you -- have you seen -- do you know
3 Mr. Musk beyond that time?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We met at -- I was at
5 the Oscars and we met at the Oscars.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What year was that, earlier
7 or later?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was post that
9 event, I believe.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
11 Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe they did.
13 And the only reason I say that is not from my memory,
14 but because I saw -- I think I saw -- my memory is
15 that in discovery, they were communicating on email.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So you have no personal
17 knowledge of that?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no --
19 TODD BLANCHE: It's just what you've --
20 what you've seen from the press or from discovery?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I believe his
22 brother as well, actually.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Excuse me?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mr. Musk's brother as
25 well. But I don't -- my -- like I said, my memory is
Page 238
1 not -- it's not as good as I would like it to be.
2 And I just want to say that.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- you mentioned, I
4 think, yesterday in passing -- well, not in passing,
5 but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, only because he
9 was married to Kerry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think I knew his
12 brother as well. What's -- he has a brother, right?
13 He's on TV. What's his name?
14 LEAH SAFFIAN: Chris.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Christopher.
16 LEAH SAFFIAN: Christopher Cuomo.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Chris.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Chris.
19 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the TV -- the
20 former TV anchor or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but I would say
24 just socially, not -- I'm not close friends or
25 anything, but because we -- I was friends with Kerry
Page 239
1 and I met him a few times and I certainly met his
2 brother as well a few times.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And the same questions that
4 I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether
5 Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or
6 Ms. Kennedy, your friend?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And so you never -- you
9 don't recall any of those three individuals, like,
10 flying on Mr. Epstein's plane --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or visiting him in
13 Palm Beach or at the island?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
15 TODD BLANCHE: I think you mentioned
16 former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday. But
17 if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or no?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have met him, but I
19 don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him
20 only -- well, really I can't even probably
21 characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very
22 involved in the Ocean at Work, through the -- you
23 asked me yesterday about TerraMar.
24 And if I recall right, I met Mr. -- the
25 Secretary that way through the Ocean, but he wouldn't
Page 240
1 know who I am, I doubt. I don't think.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether --
3 well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And does -- is that through
6 your own life or through Mr. Epstein?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My life.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
9 Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe so.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And so for the folks we
12 just talked about, so former Secretary of State John
13 Kerry, Ted Kennedy, did -- you don't know whether
14 Mr. Epstein knew them, so I take that to mean you
15 have no recollection of them flying on his planes--
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh God, no.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh. But Bobby Kennedy
19 knew him. Bobby, the health --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Say that again
21 about Bobby Kennedy.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bobby knew
23 Mr. Epstein.
24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because we went on a
Page 241
1 trip together. Was -- we went to -- dinosaur bone
2 hunting in the Dakotas.
3 TODD BLANCHE: When was that, you know,
4 approximately? I'm not looking for an exact date,
5 but when was that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was early -- that
7 was in the early -- well, let me back up. I knew
8 Bobby's wife, Mary, pretty well, actually. And
9 before he met her.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And just to help us, I know
11 we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are
12 you -- when are you talking about that you knew
13 Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married.
14 So when are talking about the --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- in 19 -- all
16 right. I guess, let's get my head straight. In --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Well, would this have been
18 before you met Mr. Epstein --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- or after? Okay. So --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him before I
22 met.
23 TODD BLANCHE: So we're talking about the
24 1980s.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. Yes. Thank
Page 242
1 you.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The '80s.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're talking
5 about the 1980s. And then --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- I was the -- I
7 had a very, very longstanding boyfriend and he had --
8 his brother was dating Mary at the time, and we were
9 all very good friends.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Epstein -- did
11 Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
13 think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone
14 says everything happened through me. That's just not
15 true. I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he
16 had friends from London, and those are very -- they
17 were what the people would call "fancy."
18 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They were fancy
20 people. And -- but he had the same types of
21 relationships before I met him in America. So when I
22 met him, he was already, you know, Wexner and he had
23 Henry and he had -- he was --I don't know if then he
24 was at the -- in the Council of Foreign Relations,
25 but he was friends with Ace and, you know, like he
Page 243
1 was -- he was well established.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't need me.
4 And he was, you know, his -- Eva was, you know, major
5 model. So he had all these modeling connections and
6 friends in that business, long before I met him.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And so the trip that you
8 went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that
9 in the '90s and 2000s when --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was in
11 the -- it would've been in the -- I want to say '93,
12 '94.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So a very long time
14 ago.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A very, very long time
16 ago.
17 TODD BLANCHE: A few years into the --
18 your relationship -- a few years into the time that
19 you knew Mr. Epstein?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, I don't
21 want to hold myself to the dates because I really --
22 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. I'm not holding
23 you to dates. I think --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I really don't
25 --
Page 244
1 TODD BLANCHE: I've said that a lot,
2 because I appreciate we're talking about the '80s and
3 '90s and even the 2000s.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want you to
5 know, I haven't had any -- I don't have anything to
6 review, so I haven't had any ability to -- the short
7 of my legal material, obviously, which you can -- you
8 know I have, because I came with a box worth, but
9 short of that, I have nothing with which to
10 refresh -- or very limited stuff, I should say, I
11 don't want to say nothing -- to refresh my mind.
12 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that. Do you
13 have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy -- of there
14 being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and
15 masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked
16 about?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
18 inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether he
20 ever got a massage from one of the masseuses? Do you
21 know either way?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
23 TODD BLANCHE: But not something you
24 remember?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, absolutely
Page 245
1 not.
2 I mean, he -- well, I mean, yesterday, if
3 I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it. I
4 never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate
5 with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate
6 habits.
7 Now, I'm not -- I'm not going to say hands
8 or -- I mean, that to me is not inappropriate. Now,
9 somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different,
10 but --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- we're not talking
13 about anything that's -- resembles the accusations
14 that we've discussed here. So that would be an -- a
15 flat no to any man.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Did your or Mr. Epstein's
17 relationship with Mr. -- with Bobby Kennedy continue
18 into the 2000s, as far as you know?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Um --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, mine, yes. I
22 don't --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Your's -- with you. Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With me, for sure.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Page 246
1 Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continued
2 to have relationships into the 2000s?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no personal
4 knowledge of that. I mean, I would -- because --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no personal knowledge
6 is fine.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Another thing is that
8 everyone puts us together like a monolith.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He literally had a
11 separate life from me. I literally had a separate
12 life from him. Now, did they say? Well, of course
13 they did. I'm not-- that's -- I'm not crazy.
14 But he kept a lot to himself and he didn't
15 like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least
16 not with me.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Epstein didn't share,
18 you're saying?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not with me, no.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- do you know
21 somebody named Cheryl Mills?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Used to work in the White
24 House as a lawyer?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do. Yes.
Page 247
1 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know Ms. Mills?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Ms. Mills
3 through President Clinton.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember a --
5 generally, the timeframe that you -- you met her?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, actually. Hang
7 on. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to remember -- I'm
8 trying to get my dates right.
9 DAVID MARKUS: Approximately.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay. I can't
11 get my dates right. But it's something you probably
12 can -- going to be in the early 2000s.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what I don't
15 recall --
16 TODD BLANCHE: So --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2002.
18 I'm going to say 2002, 2003.
19 TODD BLANCHE: So it was after President
20 Clinton left office?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And so it was in the 2000s.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And how -- what -- how did
25 you meet her? What were the circumstances under
Page 248
1 which you met Ms. Mills?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went on a trip with
3 the President to South America.
4 TODD BLANCHE: With which president?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
6 President Clinton.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. Just, you
8 know --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- just wanted -- it was --
11 I just wanted to make sure it was clear.
12 Okay. So you went on a trip to -- to
13 where?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Latin America.
15 TODD BLANCHE: And who -- and so Ms. Mills
16 was on that trip?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She was.
18 TODD BLANCHE: And President Clinton was
19 on that trip?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Who else was on that trip?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Doug Band.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Who worked with President
24 Clinton?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
Page 249
1 TODD BLANCHE: And was Mr. Epstein?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
4 that trip?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the President
6 had -- I don't know. I mean, I -- the President met
7 with -- I can't even remember every -- all the, I
8 know, presidents and we were in --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Was this part of President
10 Clinton's work after he left office with the -- with
11 his foundation? Or was -- meaning what --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think the
13 foundation, when did the --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it something for him
15 or was it --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When did the -- I
17 don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative
18 started.
19 So if you date me -- if you give me that
20 date, I can tell you if it was pre or post. Because
21 without that, I can't pin the reason.
22 DAVID MARKUS: Do you remember what it was
23 for or not?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I don't recall.
25 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
Page 250
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I don't --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's -- don't over
3 think or under think the reason for my questions.
4 I don't -- I don't have any idea why you
5 went on that trip, so I don't know an answer that I'm
6 getting from you.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I'm just trying to
8 be as accurate as possible and give you the
9 information that you seek.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Why would you -- do you
11 remember why you were invited to go? Like were you
12 -- were you friends with somebody? What was your
13 role going on that trip?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a role.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So do you remember why --
16 do you remember who invited you to go?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If -- probably
18 Doug Band.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you know Doug?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Doug and --
21 again, back with Philip Levine.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Got it. And do you know
23 whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
25 TODD BLANCHE: Doug.
Page 251
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't know. I
2 mean, nothing. He -- I don't believe there was any
3 relationship, other than I helped -- well, without
4 me, I don't think there would've been those flights,
5 because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide
6 the plane for -- well, certainly I remember the one
7 to Africa, of course, that big trip.
8 And I thought it was an honor and a
9 privilege to be part of something so amazing and to
10 have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I
11 found truly extraordinary.
12 And please, I don't mean it in any other
13 way, other than as a former fantastic ex-president.
14 I don't --
15 TODD BLANCHE: So I was asking around the
16 question, but I'll just ask it: like, were you
17 basically asked to go because you were kind of
18 responsible for the plane?
19 Responsible is the wrong word. They use
20 you -- they were able to use you to make sure that
21 they could -- you helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane
22 for the trip?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't even know
24 if when I was on that -- in fact, I think -- I think,
25 that trip, I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the
Page 252
1 President.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think this is -- but
4 if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip
5 happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even --
6 not that they'd never met, because Epstein had gone
7 to the White House, but they had not met.
8 I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then
9 because they'd never met and it would be weird. But
10 they met because of me and the plane was because of
11 me. But that trip was the first, I think, the first
12 trip I took with the ex-president. And I don't
13 believe Epstein and he had met.
14 And we're talking a time period when I was
15 trying to --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- leave. Not very
18 successfully obviously, but I was branching out on my
19 own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and
20 trying to -- all kinds of businesses that I was into.
21 I was trying to start the first telehealth
22 medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I'm not
23 going to bore you, because I don't think that's what
24 you guys are interested in, but those were the sorts
25 of things that I was looking for him to finance, so
Page 253
1 that I could stop being, you know, a general manager
2 of a hotel.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so did you take
4 other trips with some or all of those individuals,
5 kind of without Mr. Epstein in later years? Like,
6 you said that was the first time that you had kind of
7 been on something like that and it was an honor and
8 you were spending time with former President Clinton
9 and others.
10 Were there other -- over the years, did
11 you do that more than once?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: We'll talk about those.
14 Like multiple times, like too many to count or there
15 three or four times. Like how many times?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A lot. A lot. I went
17 on a lot of trips. Now I don't recall all of them.
18 Not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but
19 I just don't remember them all.
20 And after a while, you know, in the
21 incredible job that you have, all of you, that when
22 you're so high pressured and you're spending so much
23 time with extraordinary people like you do with
24 President Trump, it -- it can blur. It just does.
25 And those few things that stand out,
Page 254
1 because at the end it's all just extraordinary as
2 cars and sirens and president. It's like, whoa,
3 okay.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So, I understand, but
5 talk -- so don't give me spec- --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
7 TODD BLANCHE: -- I understand you can't
8 give specific numbers. What -- describe more about
9 kind of your, that part of your life and your
10 relationship. I'm using "relationship." You don't
11 like relationships.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right, right.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And your -- sorry. And
14 your --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My employer.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Just describe your --
17 what you were doing with those individuals. So when
18 I say "those individuals," I'm talking about former
19 President Clinton, Doug, other folks that worked with
20 him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All of them. Yes.
22 There were loads of them. And just all of them, you
23 know the team, I don't need to give you all the
24 names. You have them at your fingertips and I can
25 confirm. If you give me names, I'll say yes, because
Page 255
1 they're not all going to pop into my head, so.

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Part 2 of 3

2 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I started
4 spending a lot of time. I don't want to characterize
5 that, but I started spending time with the former
6 President and with Doug and his team.
7 And then it -- I had no purpose, really,
8 other than I had -- I obviously offered something, I
9 don't know, ideas of -- I don't know.
10 Anyway. And he started to travel. I
11 don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it
12 went, but at some point, I think there was actually
13 two trips, but I'm not sure. So there was to Europe
14 and then to Africa, I think maybe it was all one
15 trip.
16 And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he
17 didn't want to go on the trip and he was going
18 somewhere else and he just left. And I was like,
19 well, okay. And so I ended up doing the whole trip
20 without Mr. Epstein or his plane.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And when you were traveling
22 with them, what were the purposes of the trips? Like
23 is this one --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think these were
25 all -- I think actually it was the AIDS, was one of
Page 256
1 the primary ones, for his AIDS Foundation, when he
2 was working to do that. And there were always a
3 humanitarian side to the trips.
4 And we went to Egypt and to, there was --
5 oh, yeah.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So there -- so it sounds
7 like you're describing one -- right now, one trip
8 with lots of stops.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It could be, but I
10 have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I
11 can't remember.
12 TODD BLANCHE: When you -- when you went
13 on these --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went to London.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Went to London. Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if that's
17 the same trip.
18 TODD BLANCHE: When you went on these
19 trips, that -- were you always on Mr. Epstein's
20 plane?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or did you sometimes
23 accompany them on a different plane?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. Yes.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How many were on
Page 257
1 Mr. Epstein's plane? Again, I'm not holding you to
2 exact, but --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was a full, that
4 was packed. Because it was a lot of secret service.
5 It took all the Secret Service as well.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was whatever the
8 detail is for Secret Service, it's a lot.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And on how many occasions,
10 besides the trip you just described, were there other
11 times when they used -- when President Clinton and
12 the folks he was with, used Mr. Epstein's plane?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was --
14 there was twice, maybe. There was that. But it will
15 reflect on the logs. There won't be anything that's
16 not on the logs that you have already.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Were you, by the way,
18 responsible for the logs in any way? Like, you've
19 seen the logs and they're public and you have them in
20 discovery.
21 But over the years when you were working
22 with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the
23 logs?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was, not. No,
25 never. The pilots -- the logbook was their personal
Page 258
1 logbook.
2 I never even saw them have it. I never
3 saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set
4 of logs, the -- the flight manifests. And I never
5 saw those either. I was never -- I was never
6 allowed, I suppose. Because he didn't want me to
7 see.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so do you
9 know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship
10 with -- with President Clinton, different from the
11 what you just described? So different than being
12 with him, with respect to his foundation or something
13 like this?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
15 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time that
16 you went on a trip or saw President Clinton?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in -- was late
18 2000 and, I don't know, '16, '17, '18, something
19 in -- it was in Los Angeles.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
21 that meeting?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was hosting
23 something or he was at an event and I was in L.A. and
24 I had dinner with him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Had -- did you ever meet
Page 259
1 Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: When did you meet her?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say --
5 again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say
6 that it was on a flight that came from the island
7 from -- not from the island, from the Nantucket or --
8 or Martha's Vineyard back to New York, is what I
9 think. I might be wrong.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So some -- an East
11 Coast island, like Nantucket --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or something like this?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. No, -- the
15 Clint- -- the ex-president never came to the island.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And did you -- is that the
17 only time that you met Hillary Clinton?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I went to the
19 house in Chappaqua a few times.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And why did you go to the
21 house?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was invited.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Just to see
24 President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both or --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I mean, as a
Page 260
1 friend, not for -- I don't -- there was no -- I don't
2 remember any reason, either was somehow I
3 communicated that was in coming, driving back past
4 Chappaqua or if they were home and stop in.
5 And it's -- I know it sounds a little
6 flippant, but it could -- it could have even
7 something as --
8 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
9 Mr. Epstein had -- knew or had any sort of visit
10 dealings or -- associated with Hillary Clinton?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever see
13 them together?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- do you know whether
16 Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with
17 the Clintons?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would -- well, I'm
19 not sure I can. I'm not sure how to quite -- I don't
20 know the answer to that strictly, because, I was -- I
21 was part of the beginning process of the Clinton
22 Global Initiative.
23 And that was something that I helped with
24 and that was me, and Epstein may have helped me help
25 them. And in that context, he may well have involved
Page 261
1 himself, but only in the context of something that I
2 was trying to do.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say "involved
4 himself," meaning like, give money to the Clinton
5 Global Initiative or something like this?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so there's that.
7 I think he did do that. And that, I believe, the
8 money that he may have given could have been
9 independent of me. But I think it's just easier if I
10 just tell you how it happened, rather than --
11 otherwise it sounds all odd and funky. I went to
12 Davos with a former president and I -- have you been
13 to Davos?
14 TODD BLANCHE: In what?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Have you been to
16 Davos?
17 TODD BLANCHE: I have not.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, you know,
19 it's a -- you know what it is, right? Okay. So --
20 and I was -- I thought the former president should
21 have his own Davos, because it would be -- and they
22 had -- it turned out, that they had been thinking
23 about it anyway.
24 And so we were talking about it and, you
25 know, it's a very heavy lift to get something like
Page 262
1 that to go. And I was friendly with one of the
2 people who had -- I don't know if he was at the
3 beginning of Davos or -- but he was running Davos.
4 It was just -- I don't know, hard to
5 describe his actual role at Davos and had
6 conversations with him about what did he think, you
7 know? Oh, just because I was having dinner with him
8 about if Clinton could get something like that to go,
9 what was his thoughts?
10 And he was very, very enthusiastic. I
11 mean, he was like, that's just an incredible idea.
12 So I put them together.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Who -- what's that person's
14 name? Do you remember?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I knew you were going
16 to ask me.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can -- I can --
19 TODD BLANCHE: Just -- you said -- I
20 didn't know if you knew his -- if you remember his
21 name.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do know. I do, but
23 I just --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Can't remember his name.
25 Okay.
Page 263
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It will come to me.
2 It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these
3 things, like, surface from -- like in the middle of
4 the night, I was scribbling names --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that I couldn't
7 remember from yesterday.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But his name will come
10 to me, and if not, we can find it.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you -- when
12 the -- just still stay -- staying on your
13 relationship with -- sorry, the -- your association
14 with the Clintons.
15 You were part of the ramp up or the
16 startup of the Clinton Global Initiative --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- and helping them in
19 supporting that effort.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I would say very
21 central to that, yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And Mr. Epstein, was he
23 part of the work around that or just in support of
24 you?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He supported me to
Page 264
1 help them, but then I think he may have tried to use
2 that to insert himself in some way, that would not
3 have surprised me at all.
4 And I know that he was annoying, in terms
5 that I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn't
6 always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was
7 like, it's not your idea. I don't really care what
8 you think, but that didn't go over so well.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I just want to
11 say, it wasn't my idea for his CGI.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Wasn't your -- say it
13 again.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not my idea.
15 They had had that idea before. I just helped bring
16 key personnel to --
17 TODD BLANCHE: You're saying the idea of
18 President Clinton kind of having his own Davos
19 like --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- I'm not
21 owning. I didn't -- that's not --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't want anyone --
24 I don't try to elevate myself in any form of
25 importance here.
Page 265
1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you go to Davos with
4 President Clinton more than once or just once?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember.
6 Once for sure. And I think maybe twice, but I don't
7 remember.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and you're not, I
9 think you said, you don't -- you're not aware of
10 President Clinton ever going to the island?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never. Absolutely
12 never went. And I can be sure of that because
13 there's no way he would've gone -- I don't believe
14 there's any way that he would've gone to the island,
15 had I not been there. Because I don't believe he had
16 an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein.
17 Did they speak? Did he go? Yes, but
18 that's very different from going to spend time on an
19 island.
20 And plus, the story as told is so patently
21 absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a
22 helicopter pilot, that is true. But the notion of me
23 flying an ex-president in a machine. That would
24 terrify me. I would never even take that
25 responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah, no. I'm not
Page 266
1 -- I'm -- no.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever go with
3 President Clinton to any of Epstein -- Mr. Epstein's
4 properties?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I --
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- so like New Mexico,
7 Palm Beach, or in New York?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no memory of
9 him in any of those places.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When you were in London
11 with President Clinton, did you -- did you ever go to
12 your -- to your flat with him?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did.
14 I don't -- I don't think so, because this, like, it's
15 like -- he wouldn't even -- he wouldn't even be able
16 to carry all his Secret Service with him. I don't
17 think so, no.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know -- we
19 talked a little about the Duchess of York, about
20 Sarah Ferguson yesterday.
21 Did -- when's the -- when the last time
22 you, like -- when's the last time you, you saw her?
23 Like, were you -- were you -- do you have a -- were
24 you with her or hang out with her, socializing with
25 her, in the '90s, 2000s? Both?
Page 267
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She's -- well, I had
2 a -- I don't know if she liked me very much. I think
3 my friendship with her ex-husband -- well, sometimes
4 she really did like me and sometimes she didn't. So
5 maybe a frenemy, I don't know.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- it was always
8 friendly when we were together, but I think that
9 there was some latent hostility. And I --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Is that something you've
11 heard since everything came out or along the way you
12 felt that way?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that's how I felt.
14 That -- that is a characterization of myself. That's
15 how I felt about her. I would never -- I was always
16 friendly with her. I mean, she's -- I mean, I've
17 seen her many, many times and she's also super, super
18 close with other people I'm very good friends with in
19 England. I think that -- I think that she liked
20 Mr. Epstein.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My female intuition.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 LEAH SAFFIAN: Discovery.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh.
Page 268
1 LEAH SUFFIAN: The letter.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember it.
3 TODD BLANCHE: It's okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't -- it's
5 possible that there's things -- well, I know -- it's
6 not possible. I know that there is discovery, but I
7 don't recall. But I think she had a thing for him.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- there's some actors
9 or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you
10 about, just to understand whether you knew them or
11 Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know
14 Mr. Tucker?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think only from that
16 flight to Africa. But I do think that they met --
17 TODD BLANCHE: You say that flight to
18 Africa, the one we were just talking about with --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- President Clinton?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Sorry.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry, go ahead. Yep.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I also think that
24 they kept a little bit in touch and I think we met,
25 or I have a memory of him maybe in L.A., I don't
Page 269
1 know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch.
2 I wouldn't -- I don't think it -- I don't know. I
3 don't know how to say that.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Tucker
5 besides that flight?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether --
8 when you say you think that they kept in touch, you
9 mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They may have. I
11 didn't, but he might have. I'm not sure.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Kevin Spacey?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know him also from
14 that same flight.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that flight, do
16 you know him from any other thing?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Naomi Campbell?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do know Naomi,
20 and I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and Mr. --
21 former President Clinton.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
23 Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think she -- he
25 probably met her through me, that I imagine.
Page 270
1 TODD BLANCHE: And so for those three,
2 Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell, did they
3 ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties; the
4 island or New Mexico?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not Mr. Tucker --
6 well, not to my knowledge Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey.
7 Naomi Campbell may have.
8 TODD BLANCHE: To where?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She may have gone --
10 well, she certainly -- well, I believe she visited
11 him in Palm Beach, and I believe she may have gone to
12 the island and she may have gone to see his house in
13 New York. Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as
14 well, maybe. They were friends or friendly.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Were you -- what you just
16 said "she may have," were you on those trips?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have any
18 independent memory of that, so I'm not sure. I don't
19 think so.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her relationship, her
22 friendship, her -- I think you're making me use your
23 word. Her -- her friendship, whatever, with
24 Mr. Epstein was independent of me.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. But you also had a
Page 271
1 separate friendship with her before you met
2 Mr. Epstein?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Larry Summers, the
5 former Secretary of the Treasury.
6 Do you know that person?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did, yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: How?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Summers
10 through Mr. Epstein.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And the same question, just
12 generally time period, are you talking about early
13 2000s, '90s, a little after that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly really
15 don't know.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did want to say
18 something. I forgot that there was -- yesterday.
19 You asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had
20 a rental in Boston as well, but it -- not for very
21 long, but it was another place that I had to put
22 together. And I only went with him once and he would
23 go there independently of me. No, I would not go
24 with him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in the '90s?
Page 272
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was, yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Summers, do you know
3 why -- do you know what his relationship was with
4 Mr. Epstein; business, personal, both, or don't you
5 know?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he spoke to
7 Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they
8 were friends. They were friendly.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
10 Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to
11 any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He may have, but I
13 don't think, if he did, I was on any of the flights.
14 I mean, those are another issues. I mean, I went --
15 I traveled so, so much that I really -- the flights
16 just blur.
17 TODD BLANCHE: I understand.
18 George Soros?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he knew
20 him. I did, but I don't think he did. I don't
21 think.
22 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know Mr. Soros?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was friends with his
24 kids.
25 TODD BLANCHE: What -- which kids?
Page 273
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Jon and -- I can't
2 think of his other child. I can't think of -- I
3 mean, I've lost his name.
4 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
6 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him, but just
8 socially. He may not remember even having met me. I
9 was excited to meet him.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When are you thinking --
11 when would you have met him?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If I met him it -- I
13 think it was either at an event or at his kids -- it
14 wouldn't have been at his house. An event, I
15 think -- or I think actually, no, in the Hamptons I
16 met him. He was staying at somebody's house. If --
17 if my memory serves.
18 TODD BLANCHE: And what was your
19 relationship? How did you know his kids?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was out and about in
21 New York a lot.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So just socially?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Just socially, yes.
24 And -- yeah, just socially, I think.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- do you know
Page 274
1 whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on
2 Mr. Epstein's planes?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Ever visit either the
5 island or New Mexico or --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't think so.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Paris? No?
8 Okay. So I -- we tried to -- to identify
9 names that have come up, either publicly or in -- in
10 other lawsuits. Are there any names that you -- that
11 come to mind that we haven't, we've talked about a
12 lot of names. A lot of names.
13 Are there some folks that you think we've
14 forgotten to ask you about?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you asked me
16 about names and I have some names, and I just want to
17 give you some context for the names as well.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we talked about
20 Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She had a boyfriend
23 and he was Frederic Fekkai, the hairdresser. And he
24 and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And then what time period
Page 275
1 are you talking about?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Like '90s, or 2000s, or
4 both?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the 2000s,
6 actually, for that. You can date that because it was
7 from when he -- I think he probably knew Frederic
8 before he dated Elizabeth. But --
9 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say they were
10 very friendly, did they go -- did they travel
11 together?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if they
13 traveled together, I mean, Epstein didn't go out very
14 much or -- I mean, he did go out, but not -- and
15 sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and
16 maybe see Fred- -- Frederic.
17 And then there was -- I mean, he had a
18 bunch of guys that he would -- I would know that he
19 would see or meet, but he really -- I guess now -- so
20 he had new friends. I -- I don't know, but --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What other names?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, so Henry
23 Jarecki, who had an island near his. Henry was a
24 financier who was the guy who cornered the silver
25 market back in the day.
Page 276
1 TODD BLANCHE: He had an island in the
2 Caribbean -- in the Caribbean near Mr. Epstein?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. In the British
4 Virgin Islands.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there was
7 Branson's island there. Now I know that there's an
8 allegation that they met. I -- I think -- I think I
9 remember that I went to Richard Branson's island with
10 Mr. Epstein, and maybe he went another time, but I
11 don't -- I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and
12 him as friends, but he did go and I think I went with
13 him.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
15 Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's island?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If he did, I was not
17 there.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but it's
20 possible, so --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I wanted to ...
23 TODD BLANCHE: Who else?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Marvin Minsky. He had
25 a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly
Page 277
1 with, all centered around Harvard. So I remember
2 him.
3 Martin Nowak, who's a mathematician.
4 Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould
5 was -- came through the Harvard angle, but I know
6 that there was a -- he would -- excuse me, Epstein
7 would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to
8 organize and the scientists were a very major
9 component of that.
10 They weren't social dinners as much as
11 they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he
12 would discuss. But if you were in the area of brain
13 cognition or -- he would invite them to the house and
14 they would come, all of them. All -- any name you
15 can name, they would be there.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So let's talk about that
17 top -- that relation -- those -- those associations
18 or relationships he had with the mathematicians or --
19 and with Harvard, and I think with MIT, to some
20 extent as well.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Official
22 (indiscernible) MIT too, yeah.
23 TODD BLANCHE: What -- from what you
24 observed, what's the reason behind him having --
25 developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and
Page 278
1 with certain professors and others associated with
2 those institutions?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He really was
4 profoundly interested in that area of science and in
5 the brain, and in -- I mean, if you were in --
6 Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on
7 happiness, I mean, it -- it came, I believe, from a
8 genuine area of interest, not from anything ...
9 TODD BLANCHE: And how did he -- how did
10 he become friends with them? How -- how was he able
11 to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to
12 the university and then they were kind of --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Certain --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- it was mandatory fun for
15 them or did he have relations with them where he
16 would, you know --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know the
18 chicken --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- host them or --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't if the chicken
21 or the egg came first.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But -- but when I met
24 him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this
25 stuff. This is not -- I -- I've read, so this is why
Page 279
1 I'm saying this. I was not responsible for these --
2 for this area of interest. I mean, I certainly --
3 sorry, just to bounce a second before it slips my
4 mind and I leave something out.
5 There was an institute in New Mexico
6 called -- anyone? The institute of -- it's very
7 famous. We're not talking to the Alamos.
8 Anyway, all right. There's a very famous
9 institute in New Mexico, so you can look it up.
10 You'll -- it'll come to you at the minute you put it
11 in your computer.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there had some of
14 the biggest brains ever. Those -- that relationship
15 came through me, so I -- that's me. And that is
16 because my father was -- one of the major scientific
17 hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from
18 scientific publishing.
19 And when it started from the thing that
20 you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the
21 Second World War, I told you, and he won the military
22 cross, and then he actually did become what was part
23 of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to
24 interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war.
25 And then that parleyed into business with
Page 280
1 Springer-Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which
2 was the scientific journals business. And he had an
3 interest -- he believed that it's -- knowledge is
4 what would prevent war.
5 And the biggest scientific discoveries --
6 well, not all of them, but many of them are coming
7 from the Eastern block and that's how we have the
8 relationship with Santa Fe Institute.
9 And Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I
10 introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go
11 off on a tangent.
12 TODD BLANCHE: This is at the Santa Fe
13 Institute?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, thank you. And
15 Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and
16 Epstein got along very, very well.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he was the man of
19 the (unintelligible). Sorry.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So do you know whether --
21 so while you -- when you meet Mr. Epstein in the
22 early '90s continuing on, so not what he had done
23 before, did he -- why do you think, from what you saw
24 or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted
25 to have the relationships that he had with Harvard
Page 281
1 and with -- and with MIT?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think that that
3 may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's
4 something that I think that Wexner maybe had a
5 relationship with Harvard, and that he used that
6 relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot.
7 And if he didn't, that his clients of
8 which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he
9 would -- he would then make -- he would arrange the
10 fund or --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Did --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- organize the fund,
13 or I don't know.
14 TODD BLANCHE: I'm going to take -- we'll
15 take a break in a -- in a minute, but just to kind of
16 set us up for what we're going to talk about next.
17 Mr. Ep- -- we talked yesterday morning
18 about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had
19 money. Did he seem to live beyond his means, as far
20 as what he was making?
21 So did you ever get the sense while you
22 were with him, that it was suspicious or curious how
23 he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you
24 know, two planes, you know, an island, and
25 New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost -- almost
Page 282
1 unlimited funds?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You said it perfectly.
3 I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any
4 reason to believe that it came from anything
5 nefarious.
6 I saw him work. I never saw him really do
7 anything, other than be on the phone, there's that,
8 and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of
9 accounts.
10 And he dealt with pretty much every
11 financier that you could care to mention. And if I
12 could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell
13 you which ones you -- I just don't remember them all.
14 But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of
15 them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major
16 businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of
17 Foreign Relations, so you had access. That's an
18 extraordinary list of people. It just is.
19 And then he -- you asked me about his, but
20 I -- so I thought about it last night, how to try and
21 explain what it was and I think the best thing is to
22 focus only on Wexner's business.
23 So I was present for some of their
24 meetings in some of their business, and I listened.
25 And so things that I personally recollect, and I know
Page 283
1 I heard, was that he would -- when I told you
2 yesterday, I think, that he would, no detail was too
3 small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I
4 think, and I saw that myself.
5 And he also organized all the trusts for
6 all the children, so if Wexner had kids -- and
7 Wexner -- I don't know if he did, he did have
8 children. So every time there was a child, he would
9 create a trust for that child.
10 And I don't -- these were complex
11 financial structures that would contain stocks of the
12 various businesses. He restructured, when I was
13 there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I
14 recollect.
15 And then not only that, but there were
16 business interests, so Wexner owned or build, or
17 designed, or I don't quite know how to characterize
18 it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of
19 Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically.
20 And he built -- I remember this
21 conversation, he built himself a very large house,
22 like truly enormous and it's one of the biggest
23 private homes I've ever been to.
24 And he built all the houses around him,
25 and I'm like, this is so random, why would you do
Page 284
1 that? And he said to me, well, because I want to
2 make sure that the people around me are my friends --
3 I want my friends around me and my neighbors. And I
4 was like, well, whatever. Okay, you know. I've been
5 around enormous wealth my whole life, and I've like
6 -- at some point I just say, okay, whatever. I get
7 it, and I don't. And so that's what he did.
8 But Epstein ran New Albany, which included
9 a country club and a golf club and a -- I mean, gosh,
10 your boss is one of the all-time great, you know,
11 businessmen in this area. You know what that is.
12 And he certainly does.
13 So there'd be that, and there was a
14 business business that Epstein -- well, he told me he
15 owned it, but of course, I can't say that for sure,
16 because I don't know, but it's a sports thing.
17 Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's? I thought
18 about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets.
19 Riddell's?
20 LEAH SAFFIAN: Riddell.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Riddell. Yeah,
22 Riddell's.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Now, how he owned
25 that -- well, he told me he owned it, but how he
Page 285
1 owned that, I -- but that was before I think I came
2 in and he had it, or he said he did.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Got it.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had other
5 businesses. He had -- I know this notion that he did
6 nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot.
7 Okay. I'm not going to say that's not
8 true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I
9 believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been
10 that he didn't grift or whatever the word is off --
11 off people, but I saw where I thought looked like
12 real work.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, why don't we take
14 a -- take a break. Okay.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah. Thank you.
16 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is now
17 10:35 and we'll take a break.
18 (Off the record at 10:35 a.m.)
19 SPENCER HORN: We are resuming from break.
20 The time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we've
22 talked around this issue, but -- talked about it a
23 little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or
24 however long it takes.
25 When you -- when we -- I want to talk,
Page 286
1 focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his
2 criminal conduct with respect to women.
3 Do you -- you said yesterday a couple
4 times that, like, you now kind of recognize or think
5 that there was things that he did that you didn't
6 know about, and that he kept from you or that you
7 didn't see.
8 What did you see? So you said yesterday,
9 and I'm not -- I'm not trying to put words in your
10 mouth, but at some point he was getting massages
11 seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.
12 Women have said that -- that were there -- that say
13 they were there giving him massages, said that those
14 included some sort of sexual conduct, however, you
15 define that in the broadest sense, not just a
16 traditional massage, regularly.
17 So what do you -- what did you see and
18 hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what
19 you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been
20 through what you've been through and heard people say
21 what they've said, and read what they read, what do
22 you -- where does that leave you in your mind with
23 what happened?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I saw
25 Epstein with women. I mean, what I mean by that is
Page 287
1 he would have women around him, or women on the
2 plane, or women in his house, or -- that's how I'm
3 explaining that.
4 Those women were very interested. What --
5 my characterization of the interest -- the
6 relationships between all women that I saw with him
7 and him, was characterized by -- excuse me, their
8 interest in him as I would see it.
9 And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody
10 who didn't want to be with him and be with him, maybe
11 socially or whatever. I never saw anybody, not under
12 any form of duress in any type of situation where
13 they were, as I would characterize it, looking
14 uncomfortable or in any way distressed.
15 In the entire time I was with him or
16 traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I
17 saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him.
18 He would ask people all the time, whoever you were,
19 to massage his feet.
20 It just was -- he'd be sitting there, and
21 he'd have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his
22 shoulders, or -- I saw that a lot. It was an
23 ubiquitous interaction, if you will.
24 So I did see that. I saw physicality, but
25 not anything that was -- I don't know how to
Page 288
1 characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I
2 suppose, to define that. So I never saw an
3 aggressive move.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Well --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
6 that was --
7 TODD BLANCHE: Non-consensual.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. Okay. I
9 never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if
10 he -- well, maybe they didn't -- I never saw anything
11 that looked like they didn't like the hug, or I never
12 saw what I would characterize as anything that was
13 unconsensual.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you see -- did you see
15 him either receiving or participating in sexual
16 conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw
17 something nonconsensual.
18 Did you see him engage in sexual conduct
19 during massages?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you could define
21 sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have
22 been, you know, less than normally clad for massage,
23 but especially on the island where they would be in a
24 bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see
25 that. So you would --
Page 289
1 TODD BLANCHE: But what about in -- so --
2 yes, I agree, that's one area. Like -- so women who
3 were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom
4 on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him
5 touching them?
6 And again, I'm not talking about consent
7 or not consent or age or -- you know, I'm saying like
8 there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and
9 dozens of women who have said that they were -- that
10 they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree, there's
11 a broad range of what that can -- how that can be
12 defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So him being physical
14 with women? I did see that, but nothing that was not
15 consensual. And to address the issue of the large
16 number of women who today say that he was
17 non-consensual coercive with them. I'm not sure.
18 I -- in my mind I sort of have to characterize the
19 two distinct areas. There's one where is the women
20 who are not of age. Therefore, anything with them is
21 immediately unconsensual.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Correct, yeah.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So let's start -- I
24 want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody
25 who's over age, because I do think that there's a
Page 290
1 very significant differential between the two.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So does the law.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Okay. So --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't mean that.
6 TODD BLANCHE: No, no.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not trying to be
8 smart.
9 TODD BLANCHE: I agree with you. Yes, I
10 agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I want to
12 deal with the thing, which is really why we're here.
13 I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the
14 other, but I just --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- want to make a
17 distinction with underage situation, because there's
18 nothing about that that's right.
19 I never saw anything with anybody who was
20 certainly to be categorical in my -- from my trial.
21 Let's deal with that, because that's
22 something that I can say in -- I never saw that with
23 them at all. And I would say that as -- as
24 described, anyway, in my trial did not happen as
25 described.
Page 291
1 I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do
2 those things. I'm not casting those -- I'm not going
3 to say -- I don't feel comfortable saying that today,
4 given what I now know to be true. So I am not here
5 to defend him.
6 But what I can say is that I did not
7 participate in that activity. And --
8 TODD BLANCHE: So let's divide this into
9 two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with
10 two areas. One is there was testimony and there's
11 certainly been depositions and public statements,
12 that some of these young women had conversations with
13 you about their age.
14 So, for example, conversations about the
15 fact that they were in high school or conversations
16 about the fact that they wanted to go to college one
17 day, which would necessarily mean -- well, not
18 necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that
19 they were in high school when they talked to you
20 about that.
21 And so, were there times -- were there
22 women that you knew were underage? And I say that
23 because that's different than whether they were
24 sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just
25 merely their age and going to give him a massage?
Page 292
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I never knew that
2 and I can categorically state that had any child said
3 to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17,
4 because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said
5 they were 17, I don't -- but I've read so much that
6 that did happen.
7 I mean, I just -- I had no -- I would
8 never have permitted such a thing, I would not -- I
9 don't even know what I would have done.
10 TODD BLANCHE: So some of the -- I think
11 even someone who testified at trial, but certainly
12 have publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when
13 she was introduced to Mr. Epstein.
14 In -- in your mind today, you don't -- you
15 kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that,
16 meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman
17 coming to give him a massage?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe you're
19 talking about Jane, and I'm --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- very happy to
22 address that. I actually don't think that the
23 testimony is correct. I don't believe --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, look, I don't --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No, no, I'm
Page 293
1 not -- I just wanted to tell you how --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to
3 get into --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm not --
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- he said, she said.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- no, no. Absolutely
7 not. I'm not -- I don't want to go there either.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to do
10 that. But I believe that what took place, with a lot
11 of these people, is that there was a slide, right?
12 So there was a zone and I -- he did meet
13 her and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a
14 young child and I knew that she was not an adult,
15 because -- but I don't believe he met her 'til she
16 was 16.
17 So I'm not -- I'm not doing a he said, she
18 said, I'm not doing that, because nobody will.
19 That's not what we're here for.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But he didn't meet her
22 'til she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14,
23 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate.
24 Did I meet her when she was 16 with her
25 mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she
Page 294
1 was young? I absolutely did.
2 But everything that took place that was
3 alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16, is not
4 accurate. And -- I don't --
5 TODD BLANCHE: There's testimony or
6 there's -- and again, I'm using testimony in the
7 broadest sense. Some of this is just public
8 statements or something that's come out in civil
9 lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like an
10 18 -- you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody,
11 which again, if true would, by definition mean you
12 knew that she was under 18.
13 Do you recall doing that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. I mean, no
15 memory of that at all. And I believe that would be
16 the person that called herself Kate has now announced
17 herself in her own podcast for who she really is.
18 Her name is . So I did not meet
19 until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So
20 it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18
21 birthday card. And the testimony -- there's also --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you accept --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that slid back.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- do you accept that at
25 some point, and we talked about this yesterday about
DOJ REDACTION
DOJ REDACTION
Page 295
1 how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point,
2 Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I accept.
4 TODD BLANCHE: And I think you said
5 yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about
6 it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of
7 the areas where he changed from when you first met
8 him until later?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- when -- I just
10 also want it to be clear, I never understood that
11 change to encompass children. I did see from when I
12 met him, he was involved or -- involved or friends
13 with or whatever, however you want to characterize
14 it, with women who were in their 20s. And then the
15 slide to, you know, 18 or younger looking women. But
16 I never considered that this would encompass criminal
17 behavior. It never ...
18 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you read, I
19 guess, two different times, right? One was during
20 the Florida investigation, when --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- there were eventually
23 public statements from some of these now women who
24 testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when
25 they were under 18.

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Part 3 of 3

Page 296
1 At that point, did you realize or did you
2 think to yourself, this happened or this could have
3 happened, I missed it, or were you at that point
4 still in the mindset that they were either not
5 telling the truth or were not remembering what
6 happened the way that -- accurately?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's a very fair
8 question. So I think that my view of this at that
9 time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did,
10 because I don't think that stuff came out in public,
11 right? I mean, I may have read things, but I
12 don't -- my first real ---
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fair.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- memory of that is
15 at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set
16 from the minute that lied in her civil
17 deposition. And I could never recover from that,
18 because --
19 TODD BLANCHE: What are you -- what are
20 you -- which lie, what are you referring to?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her entire
22 characterization --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- of -- no, I don't
25 remember how she came and whether I did, --
DOJ REDACTION
Page 297
1 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I'm talking
3 about the first time she came to Epstein's house,
4 which I knew --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to be false. So
7 from that first lie of that description, I could
8 never recover from that.
9 TODD BLANCHE: I understand. Okay. So --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that tainted --
11 sorry. Just so that we clear it, tainted, then, the
12 testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post
13 that, because I had my own personal experience, which
14 I knew to be false.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And the reason why I
16 think -- and I said to Mr. Markus that -- this
17 morning that we were going to talk about this,
18 because when I think about you and the public's
19 perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with
20 the view that nobody in the world knows what really
21 happened except for you, okay?
22 And now you've explained, the last day and
23 a half, how some of that's just a misperception,
24 because you weren't -- you didn't have a key to his
25 house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody
Page 298
1 claims you were, okay?
2 But there still is this perception out
3 there that, oh my gosh, if -- if we could talk to
4 Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein
5 was or how misperceived he was. Whatever the truth
6 is about Mr. Epstein.
7 And the challenge in my mind, just to
8 be -- I told you I would tell you when I had
9 issues -- and the challenge in my mind is that so
10 many women have -- have said that Mr. Epstein
11 sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults,
12 that I don't find it -- you know, at some -- that's
13 persuasive, right, that that happened.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So --
15 TODD BLANCHE: And so if that's persuasive
16 then -- and I think it's without -- beyond
17 contestation that he preferred younger women --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- and it's also beyond,
20 I think at this point, there were certainly
21 circumstances that underage women -- well, I don't
22 want to say that you agree with me on that.
23 I certainly believe that there were
24 younger age women that were abused by him, okay? And
25 so -- and then so the layer that I want you to --
Page 299
1 that I really want to have a frank discussion about,
2 is some of these women have said, oh, yes, you know,
3 Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.
4 She saw me there, she -- the door was open when I was
5 there. And then much more egregious, right? That
6 you participated and that you were part of it.
7 And so what I really want you to have an
8 opportunity to say to us, is where on the spectrum
9 the truth is. Whether it's somewhere in the middle,
10 whether it's one extreme or another extreme,
11 understanding. In my mind, I'm talking about 1994 or
12 '5, to whenever, late '90s or early 2000s.
13 DAVID MARKUS: And let me just interrupt.
14 All I would say is, we're not here to say anything
15 one way or the other about Epstein.
16 I agree with you that the evidence is
17 overwhelming against him, and he -- he is his own
18 person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can
19 speak about what she knows --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
21 DAVID MARKUS: -- and from her point of
22 view and what she did.
23 And that's what you can talk about,
24 Ghislaine.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
Page 300
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think it's
2 helpful to put this on -- the time on the calendar,
3 because I think without that we, we're lost. So I
4 would say we'll go from the beginning '91? No. '2?
5 No. '3? No. '4? No. '5? No. '6? No.
6 In that time frame, you have the
7 allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he
8 met her until she was --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Let's not talk about
10 individuals.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm just
12 saying.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. I'm with you.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But there's only --
15 but there's only -- so in that time period, I am only
16 aware of her.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm aware of a girl,
19 , who said, but -- and and ,
20 those -- I don't know of any others.
21 And if there are other people who are
22 making allegations about, I don't -- I'm not even --
23 I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them
24 in the -- but I don't know.
25 So I think in the early '90s period, I
DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION
Page 301
1 think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that at
2 least as characterized, it's just -- it's just false.
3 It's just -- it didn't happen as said.
4 Now, did it -- did it happen -- did he --
5 did he involve himself? I knew about Jane, because I
6 saw her come to the house. But I saw her with her
7 mother. I know that her allegations are that there
8 were orgies, for instance. But the people that she
9 suggests were in her orgies, didn't even work for
10 Epstein until '98 or '99.
11 Did he do orgies with those people? I
12 don't know anybody who was there who said that they
13 did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that
14 that happened. Did she do it with someone else? I
15 don't know.
16 The stories really start -- the
17 allegations really begin with . And I think
18 that you have to shift his behavior, such as it was
19 bar, there was one in California who made an
20 allegation.
21 There was a woman who said that she -- and
22 she's -- I didn't know about. So I think I would
23 call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using
24 his position to --
25 TODD BLANCHE: But -- and sorry to
DOJ REDACTION
Page 302
1 interrupt you. But I just want to -- I don't want --
2 I don't want to have you -- I don't think it's
3 helpful for us --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- have you kind of address
6 each allegation.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
8 TODD BLANCHE: I want you to clear your
9 mind and just tell the truth about it. So I'm not
10 saying you're not telling the truth.
11 I'm saying just putting aside what other
12 people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or
13 what they testified to or, you know, the rumors in
14 the press, push those aside, you were there.
15 And so when you go back to that time
16 period, '92, '93, '99, 2000, 2001, during that time
17 period, what did you see when it comes to young women
18 and massages?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. Sorry.
20 All right. So I saw him receive massages.
21 He had regular masseuses in the '90s, people who were
22 standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that.
23 He was living in the Iranian house, and
24 now that I look back, he had -- I didn't stay there,
25 but I would go to manage the house. I would see
Page 303
1 women, models, or people that he would have come to
2 the house.
3 I -- I know that I thought that he was
4 with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed.
5 And then subsequently believed that even
6 though she married him, I actually subsequently
7 believed that the baby that she had was his.
8 DAVID MARKUS: Can I interrupt for one
9 second?
10 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Of course.
11 DAVID MARKUS: Can I just ask some basic
12 top line questions?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
14 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
15 room with him and a masseuse?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Who -- when was
18 that?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he would come in
20 sometimes, and he would say, like, give her a massage
21 here, or he would grab my -- you know, but not often.
22 I mean, he did come in from time to time.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
24 room with him with a masseuse that was naked or
25 giving him any sexual favors?
Page 304
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw that.
2 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I remember.
4 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you -- did you
5 ever -- did any of the masseuses ever discuss with
6 you giving -- that they gave sexual favors to
7 Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
9 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you ever see an
10 underage girl go into a massage room with
11 Mr. Epstein?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 DAVID MARKUS: If you had seen that, what
14 would you have done? Would you have left?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't even conceive.
16 I can't even conceive of -- I can't imagine what I
17 would have done.
18 DAVID MARKUS: All right. I'm sorry.
19 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay.
20 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
22 Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, when I'd
24 seen him on a massage table, I had seen him
25 masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse
Page 305
1 present, but I've seen him on a massage --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever see him
5 masturbate with a masseuse -- you know, with a naked
6 woman, either giving him a massage or reporting to
7 give him a massage?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember
9 seeing that.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you give him massages
11 by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing
12 his feet, and I think, but --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I certainly
14 have been in the massage room with him, and I have
15 certainly rubbed his feet when he was -- we're
16 talking, but I was not a masseuse and I didn't
17 perform massage on him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- along -- during
19 the -- over the years, did you pay the masseuses?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was typically not
21 my job, but if there was nobody else, normally -- so
22 in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money.
23 And in New York, he would do that, because
24 I wouldn't be in New York when he -- I mean, I don't
25 remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.
Page 306
1 TODD BLANCHE: So it wasn't --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But maybe --
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- your -- it wasn't your
4 job --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- on a regular math --
7 basis to pay the masseuse. So if there was a
8 masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that
9 seven days a week you would be the one handing them
10 money?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- mostly I would
12 not. I'm not saying I never did it, because that
13 wouldn't be true. But it was not my job to pay them.
14 I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he
15 would have money or the houseman, and I think some of
16 them would have probably received checks.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And so just picking up on
18 what Mr. Markus was just asking you, did you
19 participate in sexual activity with him with a
20 masseuse, like at the same time?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And so the testi- -- I
23 don't know if there's testimony, but the women who
24 have said that that happened, categorically, that's
25 not true?
Page 307
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically
2 not true.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- moving past
4 the -- and moving into the 2000s --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I just want to
6 say that I have been -- I mean, I remember there'd be
7 times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be
8 in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody
9 else could be on his feet, and we could be talking.
10 So there is that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not -- you're --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- not talking about
14 something that's sexual, you're talking about
15 literally just rubbing his feet?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I mean --
19 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not what I'm
20 talking about, I'm saying --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, they
22 could be -- the -- sometimes the women might be
23 topless who were giving that. So you could say that
24 was sexual in that context.
25 TODD BLANCHE: No, I'm talking about the
Page 308
1 repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with
2 you present and even participating?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did -- in the
5 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently
6 when you talked about it yesterday, about how your
7 relationship with Mr. Epstein changed and was
8 changing and you ultimately met somebody else.
9 Did you observe any, you know, massages or
10 young women giving him massages later on? So after
11 2000, 2001 time period?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sure I did.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And was there anything
14 different about what you observed during that period
15 and the '90s, as far as the frequency, his conduct
16 towards them?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the frequency
18 increased. I think he went from one to two in that
19 time period. And -- but I did not see -- I have no
20 recollection of ever seeing a child entering the
21 house and giving him a massage. I -- at that time,
22 he had moved me out of the main house.
23 I had moved into an office with John
24 Alessi, the former butler, under the stairs. So I
25 had an office where I would be that was not part of
Page 309
1 that -- part of the house.
2 If I saw people, and I'm not saying I
3 didn't see people come to give him a massage, that
4 wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone, let's
5 say, I wouldn't -- I don't remember ever seeing
6 anybody that I would characterize as a child, no.
7 Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at
8 the time when she came.
9 If I did see her, and I don't believe I
10 did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she
11 was as her -- she's described herself now, was very
12 mature and looked in her 20s.
13 So could somebody have come that was more
14 mature looking than the allegation of what she did
15 look like, with a photograph that was produced as
16 evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time
17 seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to
18 give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see
19 people come? I absolutely did.
20 Did I -- I just didn't see children. I
21 didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And
22 if I had seen a child, I wouldn't -- I'm not sure
23 what I would have done.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Well, did you -- just
25 talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger
Page 310
1 picture, do you -- at the time that you were in his
2 life, did -- do you -- was he a -- did he seem to you
3 to be a sexual deviant or, I don't know what the
4 right way to describe it.
5 But when you say to me, he was getting
6 massages every single day, right? So young women
7 were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days.
8 Flew with the women to the island, to New York,
9 Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing
10 him, giving him massages. I think it's -- it would
11 be an understatement to say that that's not normal?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I agree.
13 TODD BLANCHE: We've all kind of been part
14 of the Epstein story over the past several years, but
15 you were there at the time. Okay?
16 What was it like at the time? I mean, was
17 he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing?
18 Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image
19 wise? Like at the time, what was it like?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think if he had been
21 creepy, like, as you would define, and you would
22 expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be
23 creepy, I don't think the women would have been
24 there.
25 I don't think that they thought of him as
Page 311
1 creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave
2 like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was
3 for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't
4 understand why it was interesting, because to me,
5 it's not interesting.
6 But he, as he defined it, he found it
7 invigorating. He liked being with younger people and
8 not just younger people. I'm just saying because
9 they gave him ideas, and they were up to date on
10 music and --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, but that's different,
12 like, a masseuse coming every day.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just telling you
14 what he was saying to me.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, to me, I just
17 found it a drag and difficult and annoying.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But understand I
20 wasn't the only person present. So this time in the
21 2000s, you're talking about other people, like Sarah
22 Kellen, who was around, who interfaced with him.
23 I didn't have to -- she was really
24 interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his
25 life. She was running his -- she was his assistant.
Page 312
1 And so I didn't have to --
2 TODD BLANCHE: That's a fair point. But
3 move beyond the -- his assistants or the folks that
4 work with him. What about his friends and the people
5 that were associated with him?
6 It couldn't be -- it doesn't -- I don't
7 understand how that -- how this is an after fact of
8 Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it
9 becomes part of his story. And then later on he's
10 charged in Southern District, and then here we are
11 now in 2025.
12 But he was a very successful, hardworking
13 guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with
14 them on vacations and went to the island. It
15 doesn't -- I don't understand how he was able to hide
16 this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual
17 fixation or issue --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- from -- from others?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did
21 hide it. I -- that's the answer. And I think that
22 the people around him, I think, myself included --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- obviously,
25 normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One,
Page 313
1 I think it -- because it was a self -- because so
2 many people saw it of so many -- of such a high
3 caliber down that never seemed to think it would --
4 well, if they thought it was strange probably, they
5 never said it at the time. So it became sort of like
6 it was his thing, right? He was always around with
7 women.
8 Now, you don't -- I understand that it's
9 very unattractive, especially in light of everything
10 that we know today. But at the time, the only way I
11 can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and
12 the City, the movie, the show on telly, where the --
13 this is -- that lifestyle is described on the TV show
14 constantly.
15 There are always these women around and
16 men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know
17 like women, and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein,
18 but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the
19 context of the criminal behavior.
20 So what we're discussing now, there's a
21 difference between the criminal behavior and the
22 non-criminal. But you don't like the lifestyle, I
23 concur.
24 I agree. Especially now. And I -- I own
25 my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw
Page 314
1 his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or
2 do something.
3 But I don't -- I don't think back in the
4 '90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And
5 the cultural shift, I think is a very important part
6 of the analysis here. Not because I'm trying to
7 justify this, because I'm not, and I'm not trying to,
8 and I absolutely am not here to do the poor me
9 program. So please, don't misunderstand this.
10 However, in the 19- -- 2000s, when this
11 behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the
12 Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the
13 women who were underage 17, 16, I believe if I'm --
14 my memory serves, were actually targets of the
15 investigation and could have been charged with
16 prostitution and trafficking, I would -- if
17 trafficking was even a law.
18 So you're taking -- you're taking
19 behavior. And I did introduce him to women, I did,
20 but not underage women. I understand that there are
21 allegations. I have read them about myself going to
22 schools. I can categorically tell you that I have
23 never, in my life, gone to a school to pick up a
24 child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, like my
25 stepchildren, and all, but okay. Sorry, just --
Page 315
1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Thank you. I
3 just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute
4 or anything.
5 But -- and I did look for masseuses, I --
6 I did. I went to spas and if I met somebody who said
7 she was a masseuse, I did not check their
8 credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I
9 did introduce her, yes.
10 If I met friends who were interested, he
11 was constantly asking me for -- to meet new and
12 interesting people. I did -- I did do that.
13 At the time, I viewed it as -- well, first
14 of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my
15 responsibility, if you were, to introduce -- because
16 it wasn't just women. If I met somebody who was
17 interesting, like Murray Gell-Mann or who I thought
18 he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively,
19 but he did. And I did do that.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but then -- so I want
21 to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked
22 about yesterday more, but a little bit today already,
23 which is everybody that was around him besides you,
24 like his friends.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
Page 316
1 TODD BLANCHE: So I accept the lifestyle.
2 I've seen the photos, the fact that everybody is --
3 we're all going to go to the island for a couple of
4 days, or we're flying on a private plane and there's
5 beautiful women everywhere.
6 Is there any -- I mean, do you, as you sit
7 here today, think that the people around him didn't
8 also -- weren't also of the same place where they
9 were also getting massages where there was sex going
10 on during them, or things like that? And I'm
11 obviously asking this because that's what the --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- that's what everybody
14 has said. And when you just described what it was
15 like, the very next step from that is everybody's
16 going to Vegas for the weekend, you know. And so --
17 and so you -- it seems kind of far-fetched to say
18 that, yes, that was his lifestyle.
19 But then when he's taking groups of folks
20 to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or
21 whatever, that they're all, you know, going to church
22 in the morning while he's getting a massage.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I hear you. I was
24 there, though. And --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
Page 317
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're talking
2 about very substantial people. And you are
3 extrapolating because the narrative that started
4 in -- by the way, not until 2009, is when it really
5 started.
6 So that narrative that was created and
7 then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what --
8 basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People
9 have gone and lost their minds for this thing. I
10 understand that.
11 But the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob
12 who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like
13 P. Diddy in Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I
14 mean, it's -- it's bananas. And while some of it is
15 real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not
16 disputing that.
17 But this was a man, they didn't even
18 believe he had a real business. I happen to believe
19 he did. Did he grift? I don't -- I don't know,
20 because I wasn't really in his business. But this is
21 -- this is one man.
22 He's not some -- they've made him into
23 this -- he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting
24 guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're
25 not going to hear me say what he did to people who
Page 318
1 are over the age 18. I'm sorry. I'm not going to go
2 there. That's just not what I'm here to -- I mean, I
3 -- okay?
4 But to suggest that Larry Summers or
5 Clinton would certainly go, oh my gosh, this is like
6 a guy I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some
7 sex. They're men that went and had a massage and
8 maybe did something sexual, they're men, I wasn't in
9 the room. I cannot tell you if that happened.
10 And if it did, not -- I never paid for
11 that. Just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to
12 me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that
13 was a three, uh-uh (negative). I'd be like, okay.
14 TMI, no, not my business. You want to -- it's just
15 not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that.
16 But did I, like, think these guys were
17 coming for that? I really don't. If you met
18 Epstein, there is no way that this cast of
19 characters, of which it's extraordinary, and some are
20 in your cabinet, who you value as your coworkers, and
21 you know, would be with him if he was a creep or
22 because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants
23 sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have
24 to come to Epstein for that.
25 Now did some? Okay. I don't know. I
Page 319
1 wasn't there. I didn't see it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So when's the last time you
3 think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a
4 massage?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2007.
6 TODD BLANCHE: 2007?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And the frequency at that
9 point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak,
10 would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he
11 was having daily with women and masseuses?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't really in his
13 life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I
14 was with Ted.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And we -- I was still
17 speaking with Epstein, because I was still involved
18 in his -- you know, loosely with his -- the houses
19 and the staff and some of the billing. And he -- and
20 I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean
21 to New York, and Epstein offered me a ride. And so
22 Ted dropped me off in Saint Thomas, and I was on the
23 island, I believe, for one day and one night only.
24 On that visit, I believe -- well, I know
25 he would have gotten a massage, but I have -- there
Page 320
1 were people there, but I did -- that were women. And
2 I was --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just relieved not
5 to --
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- be leaving the next
8 day.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Let's take a break.
10 SPENCER HORN: Well, we're going to take a
11 break. The time is 11:31.
12 (Break at 11:31 a.m. to 11:49 a.m.)
13 SPENCER HORN: We are resuming the audio
14 recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell, and the
15 time is 11:49 a.m.
16 TODD BLANCHE: All right. I wanted to
17 follow up about former President Clinton's
18 relationship with Mr. Epstein, not you.
19 Can you -- we touched on it, but can you
20 just to set the -- I have a couple questions about
21 it, but what's your understanding of their
22 relationship from what you observed? Meaning former
23 President Clinton and Mr. Epstein.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw them talk. I
25 saw them sit down and have chats about, I don't know,
Page 321
1 because I wasn't either a party or didn't listen and
2 I know -- I would characterize, originally anyway,
3 Mr. Epstein's interest in him because obviously he's
4 the former president.
5 But I never saw him -- other than that, I
6 saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never -- I
7 don't believe -- I don't recollect, anyway, ever
8 seeing them in any other context.
9 I don't remember him at his house in New
10 York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to
11 that island. I think that was just a -- that was a
12 story that did.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know one way or the
14 other, whether their relationship continued without
15 you, like, when you kind of moved on past
16 Mr. Epstein?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe so.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you say that you
19 don't believe so?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I don't think
21 they had a relationship even when I was there. I was
22 -- I -- President Clinton liked me, and we got along
23 terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that
24 -- that warmth or however you want to characterize
25 it, with Mr. Epstein and cert- -- so I didn't see
DOJ REDACTION
Page 322
1 that. I didn't see any interest in -- I didn't see
2 President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He
3 was just a rich guy with a plane.
4 TODD BLANCHE: When -- when the Southern
5 District of New York case kind of became public and
6 there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein's house,
7 there was like a -- there was some sort of painting
8 or picture with Mr. Clinton in like a blue dress that
9 had been signed.
10 Did you know -- do you know where he got
11 that picture or that painting?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The first I saw it was
13 in the press.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So you never observed that
15 in his --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
17 TODD BLANCHE: -- brownstone?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I thought it was
19 hideous.
20 TODD BLANCHE: What's that again?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought it was
22 hideous.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And -- but you had never --
24 so you don't know, sitting here today, where
25 Mr. Epstein got it?
Page 323
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
2 TODD BLANCHE: The circumstances in which
3 he got it?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know of any other
6 gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former
7 President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, did he
9 maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no
10 knowledge of that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And then going back to the
12 topic we were talking about before our last break.
13 Well, when you said something yesterday at
14 the very beginning of our conversation that when you
15 first met Mr. Epstein and you ultimately have sex
16 with him, that he had -- I'll use the word erectile
17 dysfunction, but he had issues having sex?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's what he told
19 me.
20 TODD BLANCHE: That's what he told you?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then over the
23 years, you said sometime in the '90s he started
24 taking testosterone?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. But I don't know
Page 324
1 if it was in the '90s. I don't remember when he
2 started, but it wasn't -- he had patches --
3 testosterone patches --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- dermal.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Like on his arm?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And then he was
10 ridiculous, because you shouldn't take more than one.
11 But sometimes he had, like -- I'm like, what are you
12 doing? It's like unhealthy.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. From what you
14 observed or saw or heard, did he continue to have
15 challenges sexually over the years or do you think
16 that whatever he told you -- whatever issue he told
17 you he had was fixed?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was a lie.
19 TODD BLANCHE: You think he was lying
20 about what?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: About his erectile
22 dysfunction.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you mean you never --
24 you don't think he ever had any issues? You think he
25 just told you that?
Page 325
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. That is what I
2 believe today, yes. But given -- if any of the
3 stories are true, even if he had erectile
4 dysfunction, the thing had a priapism, for Christ's
5 sake.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Well, that's -- that's one
7 of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're
8 right. I mean -- and again, we're -- we've talked
9 about this a fair amount, but what did -- like the
10 stories of what masseuses, underage and overage have
11 said about him is, are, you know, and what he liked,
12 what he demanded that they do. Whether it's watching
13 him masturbate or pinching his nipples, you know,
14 kind of things that are unusual.
15 Do you believe that? Like, do you -- from
16 what you saw, from what you observed, from what you
17 did when you were in a relationship with him, is that
18 true?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well, the bulk of
20 what I read, he did not have sex. So that is
21 consistent with what he told me, actually.
22 And his masturbating, that is also
23 consistent with what I knew myself. And I'm going to
24 use a bad word for --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Please, you can use
Page 326
1 whatever words you need. Yes.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Blowjob.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He liked blowjobs.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I did observe.
7 And he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction
8 for blowjobs, but sex, he didn't have. So when I
9 read the stories about all the allegations of sexual
10 rape, I find that challenging, because that was not
11 his modus operandi, from my perspective.
12 TODD BLANCHE: But when you read about
13 blowjobs, that -- does that -- that would be
14 consistent with kind of --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That would be
16 consistent, as would masturbation, yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you talk to masseuses
18 or women that either he was in a relationship with or
19 who asked you about working with him? Did you tell
20 them, yes, he likes blowjobs, yes, he'll masturbate
21 in front of you?
22 Like, did you have conversations with any
23 of those -- with women about what Mr. Epstein liked
24 or what would make him happy, or things like that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have any
Page 327
1 memory of telling anybody about that. I think I may
2 have joked like saying, oh my God, you know, like
3 from a Sex and the City scene that, you know, he's --
4 but not -- I never instruct -- the question you're
5 asking me, sorry, let's just be clear.
6 Did I ever instruct anyone how to
7 pleasure, Mr. Epstein, your question? No.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And you said this earlier,
9 but I want to just -- you kind of said it on your
10 own. I want to ask the question, just so I'll make
11 sure that there's no confusion.
12 When -- when you over the years --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, can I just --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- yeah. Of course. Yeah,
15 yeah, please.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Right. I just
17 want to say, the idea that I would have to explain to
18 a woman how to satisfy Mr. Epstein is patently
19 absurd, because he clearly was able to explain
20 himself.
21 He didn't need an interlocutor to explain
22 what he liked. He's been doing this obviously or
23 this -- some version of this story his whole life and
24 did not require any help from me.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Then -- so did you ever
Page 328
1 observe him having sex with a masseuse? Regular
2 intercourse, not a blowjob, nothing else, where you
3 either walked in or you were in the room?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw him have
5 sex with any person.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And so how about oral sex?
7 Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex,
8 whether you were in the room or walked in, or --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw
10 anyone give Epstein a blowjob. No.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But you said earlier you
12 did see him masturbating in front of masseuses.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if I said
14 that. I don't know --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Sorry. I don't
16 want --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- if I said that.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question.
19 Sorry.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know for sure
21 I said that.
22 TODD BLANCHE: No, that's fair. That's
23 fair.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I said I saw him --
25 I'm sure I saw him in a -- what some people could
Page 329
1 define as sexual contact. Because if somebody could
2 not have their clothes or topless, I would say maybe,
3 I could say that.
4 If I saw him having -- masturbating when
5 someone was there, I don't recall that, I don't have
6 a specific memory of it. I'm sorry.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But no, I'm not --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't say that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I understand, that's
12 fair. Sorry. I'm not ---
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's okay.
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- certainly not trying to
15 put words in your mouth.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no. That's --
17 absolutely no. That's fine.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- and you said, I think
19 in passing -- maybe not in passing. I'm sorry.
20 About -- about, you know, whether other
21 people who travel with him would get massages or --
22 so that would -- when I say that I'm referring mostly
23 to the island or, potentially, New Mexico. But also
24 his Palm Beach residence or even in New York.
25 Do you know of -- do you have a list of
Page 330
1 names in your head or names that come to mind of
2 people that you know did get massages when they were
3 with Mr. Epstein?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there's no list.
5 There's no list of people getting massages. I don't
6 have -- I can barely recall all the people. I can
7 barely recall. I struggle to recall actual people
8 that I met. And I may have met a long time that I
9 had even forgotten that -- about Mr. Kennedy, or I
10 probably brought it up yesterday. It just came to my
11 mind now.
12 So I don't have, and there's no list.
13 There was never a list. There was no -- or certainly
14 none that I ever saw. None I ever heard of, none
15 that I ever witnessed, none that I -- there's no
16 list. Has never been a list.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
18 Mr. Epstein talk about such a list?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
21 Mr. Epstein suggest that he had some sort of control
22 over somebody because of what he knew about what they
23 had done or had photos of him or anything?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard him --
25 no, I never heard him ask questions about that. I
Page 331
1 never heard him. So I've been present many times
2 with masseuses. I never -- who presumably could or
3 maybe did massage somebody, I'm not saying whether
4 they did or not just (indiscernible).
5 I never heard him ask any question of any
6 masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend
7 that was on the island, or in Palm Beach or anywhere
8 else for that, any details about that massage. Like,
9 does he have a funky foot? No, I never heard that
10 because it -- weird.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And I think at one of the
12 breaks today, your lawyer may have showed you
13 something that just came out in the paper, I think
14 this morning or last night. A letter that you --
15 that is attributed to you, associated with this
16 birthday book from 2003 that we talked about
17 yesterday.
18 Is -- did you see that letter.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see the letter.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Is that, in fact -- look
21 like your handwriting or something you wrote?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, I don't remember
23 the letter.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But it does look like
Page 332
1 my handwriting. And it does look like my name. And
2 it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory
3 of writing that, and I don't remember it at all.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember what the
5 birthday book, as they're calling it, what it, like,
6 looked like? Like how it was put together?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
8 TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
9 it?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember it. It was
11 leather-bound, and I remember it being about yea big.
12 It was big. Right like --
13 TODD BLANCHE: So you're saying it looks
14 like -- it's like over 12 inches, 14, 15 inches?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. It was like sort
16 of like a folio size, I guess, or something like
17 that. And like this. And it was brown and thick,
18 about this thick.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And --
21 TODD BLANCHE: So just -- so you -- so I
22 understand --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On heavy stock paper.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Heavy stock paper, like 14
25 inches high?
Page 333
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's about right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: And then around like --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A4. A4. We had A4,
4 because it was done on heavy stock paper, but I can't
5 remember if it was folio size paper, or it could have
6 just been A4.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Oh I see. So it could have
8 just been letter size, or it might have been legal
9 size --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- heavy stock paper.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And the -- so the folks
14 that submitted letters were given the stock paper or
15 how were the letters -- or did you, like, glue or
16 something the letters to the stock paper?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Every which way. Some
18 were given the paper and they did their own thing.
19 Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would
20 put it on the thing. Some I didn't get because they
21 went straight to Epstein, and I was just told to put
22 them in, like I said.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And how was it bound?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It went to a
25 professional binder, who did it like a book that
Page 334
1 you'd see in the library.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So like the glue that keeps
3 a regular book, a novel that you would read together,
4 it was bound that way?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Like a -- I believe
6 so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't
7 remember. I mean, it was professionally done by a
8 professional bookbinder.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And then after you
10 presented it, or after it was presented to him when
11 he turned 50, did you see the leather-bound book, did
12 he keep it somewhere in particular?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in his bookcase
14 in 71st Street.
15 TODD BLANCHE: In Manhattan?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In Manhattan.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And did you see it over the
18 years until you stopped going to the brownstone?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw it -- I know I
20 did see it, because it was right behind his desk.
21 And after I stopped going, I don't know what happened
22 to it.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- do you
24 remember being told or knowing where the book is now?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. But I -- when I
Page 335
1 received in discovery those pages, I assumed that it
2 had been found when either New York or the island was
3 searched, and I assumed that the Southern District of
4 New York had it.
5 TODD BLANCHE: But I think you said
6 yesterday. But just to go over it again, in case you
7 remember anything differently. You recall seeing
8 some of the letters in discovery.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
10 TODD BLANCHE: But you don't recall kind
11 of seeing the leather book, start to finish?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, but remember, I
13 didn't see all discovery because they were very
14 clever about, you know, I didn't receive all
15 discovery, period. And in fact, very important items
16 were not given to me at all, including witness
17 testimony from grand jury.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So whether -- so you don't
19 know one way or the other, whether it was part of
20 discovery, you just know that you didn't get it. It
21 wasn't part of the discovery that was given to you?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. But there's
23 a -- I am absolutely sure that the Southern District
24 of New York hid very important pieces of evidence
25 from me.
Page 336
1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I assumed that
3 they leaked it because where else would it be, if
4 that's what it is. If it's true.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I've -- just so I
6 put -- I'll say it to you as I've talked a little bit
7 to your lawyer about it. I said to you yesterday
8 that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today
9 was -- was exactly what we did, which is to have a
10 conversation about Mr. Epstein and about you.
11 And I think it's very challenging to talk
12 about everything we talked about. And, you know, in
13 one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So
14 I'll talk to Mr. Markus about kind of what we're
15 going to do next, if anything.
16 There's no -- and I don't -- I'm not being
17 coy or -- I just -- I don't know yet. I don't know.
18 So we -- I have a lot of -- we have some work to do.
19 We'll do it with your lawyers to the extent we have
20 questions or follow-up.
21 And this has been very helpful. I think
22 it's -- it was you, you know, who kind of said you
23 wanted to talk, but we gladly accepted it. So I do
24 appreciate you being willing to meet with us. And I
25 expect that we'll be in touch soon. All right.
Page 337
1 Yeah.
2 SPENCER HORN: This concludes the recorded
3 proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is
4 12:05 p.m., on Friday, July 25th.
5 (Interview concluded at 12:05 p.m.)
Page 338
1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION
2
3 I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify that
4 the provided audio recording media was transcribed by
5 me or reduced to typewriting under my supervision,
6 that said transcript is a true transcription of the
7 audio recording; that I am neither counsel for,
8 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the
9 action involved in these proceedings; and, further,
10 that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney
11 or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor
12 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
13 the action.
14 __________________________________________
Cathy M. Ayotte, OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTIONIST

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[admin]

Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker tells Trump: "Do not come to Chicago"
CBS Chicago
Aug 25, 2025

Addressing reports that President Trump is planning to send the military and National Guard to Chicago, Illinois Governor JB Pritzker said at a news conference Monday, "Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. You are not wanted here, nor needed here."



Transcript

>> I WANT TO SPEAK PLAINLY ABOUT
THE MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN AND
THE ACTUAL CRISIS, NOT THE
MANUFACTURED ONE THAT WE ARE
FACING IN THIS CITY. AND AS A
STATE AND AS A COUNTRY. IF IT
SOUNDS TO YOU LIKE I AM
ALARMIST, THAT IS BECAUSE I AM
RINGING AN ALARM. ONE THAT I
HOPE EVERY PERSON LISTENING WILL
HEED. BOTH HERE IN ILLINOIS AND
ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE
WEEKEND WE LEARNED FROM THE
MEDIA THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN
PLANNING FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW
TO DEPLOY ARMED MILITARY
PERSONNEL TO THE STREETS OF
CHICAGO. THIS IS EXACTLY THE
TYPE OF OVERREACH THAT OUR
COUNTRY'S FOUNDERS WARNED
AGAINST, AND IT'S THE REASON
THAT THEY ESTABLISHED A FEDERAL
SYSTEM WITH A SEPARATION OF
POWERS BUILT ON CHECKS AND
BALANCES. WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP
IS DOING IS UNPRECEDENTED, AND
UNWARRANTED. IT IS ILLEGAL. IT
IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. IT IS
UN-AMERICAN. NO ONE FROM THE
WHITE HOUSE OR THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH HAS REACHED OUT TO ME OR
TO THE MAYOR. NO ONE HAS REACHED
OUT TO OUR STAFFS. NO EFFORT HAS
BEEN MADE TO COORDINATE OR TO
ASK FOR OUR ASSISTANCE IN
IDENTIFYING ANY ACTIONS THAT
MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO US. LOCAL
LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS NOT BEEN
CONTACTED. WE HAVE MADE NO
REQUESTS FOR FEDERAL
INTERVENTION. NONE. WE FOUND OUT
WHAT DONALD TRUMP WAS PLANNING,
THE SAME WAY THAT ALL OF YOU
DID. WE READ A STORY IN THE
WASHINGTON POST. IF THIS WAS
REALLY ABOUT FIGHTING CRIME AND
MAKING THE STREETS SAFE, WHAT
POSSIBLE JUSTIFICATION COULD THE
WHITE HOUSE HAVE FOR PLANNING
SUCH AN EXCEPTIONAL ACTION
WITHOUT ANY CONVERSATIONS OR
CONSULTATIONS WITH THE GOVERNOR,
THE MAYOR, OR THE POLICE? LET ME
ANSWER THAT QUESTION. THIS IS
NOT ABOUT FIGHTING CRIME. THIS
IS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP SEARCHING
FOR ANY JUSTIFICATION TO DEPLOY
THE MILITARY IN A BLUE CITY, IN
A BLUE STATE, TO TRY AND
INTIMIDATE HIS POLITICAL RIVALS.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES AND HIS
COMPLICIT LACKEY, STEPHEN
MILLER, SEARCHING FOR WAYS TO
LAY THE GROUNDWORK TO CIRCUMVENT
OUR DEMOCRACY MILITARIZE OUR
CITIES, AND END ELECTIONS. THERE
IS NO EMERGENCY IN CHICAGO THAT
CALLS FOR ARMED MILITARY
INTERVENTION. THERE IS NO
INSURRECTION. THERE IS NO
INSURRECTION. LIKE EVERY MAJOR
AMERICAN CITY IN BOTH BLUE AND
RED STATES, WE DEAL WITH CRIME
IN CHICAGO. INDEED, THE VIOLENT
CRIME RATE IS WORSE IN RED
STATES AND RED CITIES. HERE IN
CHICAGO, OUR CIVILIAN POLICE
FORCE AND ELECTED LEADERS WORK
EVERY DAY TO COMBAT CRIME AND TO
IMPROVE PUBLIC SAFETY. AND IT'S
WORKING. NOT ONE PERSON HERE
TODAY WILL CLAIM WE HAVE SOLVED
ALL CRIME IN CHICAGO, NOR CAN
THAT BE SAID OF ANY MAJOR
AMERICAN METRO AREA. BUT CALLING
THE MILITARY INTO A U.S. CITY TO
INVADE OUR STREETS AND
NEIGHBORHOODS AND DISRUPT THE
LIVES OF EVERYDAY PEOPLE IS AN
EXTRAORDINARY ACTION. AND IT
SHOULD REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY
JUSTIFICATION. LOOK AROUND YOU
RIGHT NOW. DOES THIS LOOK LIKE
AN EMERGENCY? LOOK AT THIS. GO
TALK TO THE PEOPLE OF CHICAGO
WHO ARE ENJOYING A GORGEOUS
AFTERNOON IN THE CITY. ASK THE
FAMILIES BUYING ICE CREAM ON THE
RIVERWALK. GO SEE THE STUDENTS
WHO ARE AT THE BEACH AFTER
SCHOOL. TALK TO THE WORKERS THAT
I JUST MET. TAKING THE WATER
TAXI TO GET HERE. FIND A FAMILY
WHO IS ENJOYING TODAY. SITTING
ON THEIR FRONT PORCH AND ASK IF
THEY WANT THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS
TURNED INTO A WAR ZONE BY A
WANNABE DICTATOR. ASK IF THEY'D
LIKE TO PASS THROUGH A
CHECKPOINT WITH UNIDENTIFIED
OFFICERS IN MASKS WHILE TAKING
THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL CRIME IS A
REALITY WE ALL FACE IN THIS
COUNTRY. PUBLIC SAFETY HAS BEEN
AMONG OUR HIGHEST PRIORITIES
SINCE TAKING OFFICE. WE HAVE
HIRED MORE POLICE AND GIVEN THEM
MORE FUNDING. WE BANNED ASSAULT
WEAPONS, GHOST GUNS, BUMP STOCKS
AND HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES. WE
INVESTED HISTORIC AMOUNTS INTO
COMMUNITY VIOLENCE INTERVENTION
PROGRAMS. WE LISTENED TO OUR
LOCAL COMMUNITIES, TO THE PEOPLE
WHO LIVE AND WORK IN THE PLACES
THAT ARE MOST AFFECTED BY CRIME,
AND ASK THEM WHAT THEY NEEDED TO
HELP MAKE THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS
SAFER. THOSE STRATEGIES HAVE
BEEN WORKING. CRIME IS DROPPING
IN CHICAGO. MURDERS ARE DOWN 32%
COMPARED TO LAST YEAR AND NEARLY
CUT IN HALF SINCE 2021.
SHOOTINGS ARE DOWN 37% SINCE
LAST YEAR AND 57% FROM FOUR
YEARS AGO. ROBBERIES ARE DOWN
34% YEAR OVER YEAR. BURGLARIES
DOWN 21%. MOTOR VEHICLE THEFTS
DOWN 26%. SO IN CASE THERE WAS
ANY DOUBT AS TO THE MOTIVATION
BEHIND TRUMP'S MILITARY
OCCUPATIONS, TAKE NOTE. 13 OF
THE TOP 20 CITIES IN HOMICIDE
RATE HAVE REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS
NONE OF THESE CITIES IS CHICAGO.
EIGHT OF THE TOP TEN STATES WITH
THE HIGHEST HOMICIDE RATES ARE
LED BY REPUBLICANS. NONE OF
THOSE STATES IS ILLINOIS.
MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE. HATTIESBURG,
MISSISSIPPI HAVE HIGHER CRIME
RATES THAN CHICAGO. AND YET
DONALD TRUMP IS SENDING TROOPS
HERE AND NOT THERE. ASK YOURSELF
WHY, IF DONALD TRUMP WAS
ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT FIGHTING
CRIME IN CITIES LIKE CHICAGO,
HE, ALONG WITH HIS CONGRESSIONAL
REPUBLICANS, WOULD NOT BE
CUTTING OVER $800 MILLION IN
PUBLIC SAFETY AND CRIME
PREVENTION GRANTS NATIONALLY,
INCLUDING CUTTING $158 MILLION
IN FUNDING TO ILLINOIS FOR
VIOLENCE PREVENTION PROGRAMS
THAT DEPLOY TRAINED OUTREACH
WORKERS TO DE-ESCALATE CONFLICT
ON OUR STREETS CUTTING $71
MILLION IN LAW ENFORCEMENT
GRANTS TO ILLINOIS. DIRECT MONEY
FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS THROUGH
PROGRAMS LIKE PROJECT SAFE
NEIGHBORHOODS. THE STATE AND
LOCAL ANTI-TERRORISM TRAINING
PROGRAM AND THE RURAL VIOLENT
CRIME REDUCTION INITIATIVE.
CUTTING $137 MILLION IN CHILD
PROTECTION MEASURES IN ILLINOIS
THAT PROTECT OUR KIDS AGAINST
ABUSE AND NEGLECT. TRUMP IS
DEFUNDING THE POLICE. TO THE
MEMBERS OF THE PRESS WHO ARE
ASSEMBLED HERE TODAY AND
LISTENING ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I
AM ASKING FOR YOUR COURAGE TO
TELL IT LIKE IT IS. THIS IS NOT
A TIME TO PRETEND HERE THAT
THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO THIS
STORY. THIS IS NOT A TIME TO
FALL BACK INTO THE REFLEXIVE
CROUCH THAT I SO OFTEN SEE,
WHERE THE AUTHORITARIAN CREEP BY
THIS ADMINISTRATION IS IGNORED
IN FAVOR OF SOME HORSE RACE
PIECE ON WHO WILL BE HELPED
POLITICALLY BY THE PRESIDENT'S
ACTIONS. DONALD TRUMP WANTS TO
USE THE MILITARY TO OCCUPY A
U.S. CITY, PUNISH HIS DISSIDENTS
AND SCORE POLITICAL POINTS. IF
THIS WERE HAPPENING IN ANY OTHER
COUNTRY, WE WOULD HAVE NO
TROUBLE CALLING IT WHAT IT IS A
DANGEROUS POWER GRAB. LOOK AT
THE PEOPLE ASSEMBLED BEFORE YOU
TODAY BEHIND ME. THIS IS A FULL
CROSS-SECTION OF CHICAGO'S
LEADERS FROM THE BUSINESS WORLD,
THE FAITH COMMUNITY, LAW
ENFORCEMENT, EDUCATION,
COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS, AND
MORE. WE SOMETIMES DISAGREE ON
HOW TO EFFECTIVELY SOLVE THE
MANY CHALLENGES THAT OUR STATE
AND OUR CITY FACE ON A DAILY
BASIS. BUT TODAY, WE ARE
STANDING HERE UNITED IN PUBLIC,
IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS,
UNAFRAID TO TELL THE PRESIDENT
THAT HIS PROPOSED ACTIONS WILL
MAKE OUR JOBS HARDER AND THE
LIVES OF OUR RESIDENTS WORSE.
EARLIER TODAY IN THE OVAL
OFFICE, DONALD TRUMP LOOKED AT
THE ASSEMBLED CAMERAS AND ASKED
FOR ME PERSONALLY TO SAY, MR.
PRESIDENT, CAN YOU DO US THE
HONOR OF PROTECTING OUR CITY?
INSTEAD, I SAY, MR. PRESIDENT,
DO NOT COME TO CHICAGO YOU ARE
NEITHER WANTED HERE NOR NEEDED
HERE. YOUR REMARKS ABOUT THIS
EFFORT OVER THE LAST SEVERAL
WEEKS HAVE BETRAYED A CONTINUING
SLIP IN YOUR MENTAL FACULTIES
AND ARE NOT FIT FOR THE
AUSPICIOUS OFFICE THAT YOU
OCCUPY. MOST ALARMING, YOU SEEM
TO LACK ANY APPROPRIATE CONCERN.
AS OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF FOR
THE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY THAT
YOU WOULD SO CALLOUSLY DEPLOY AS
PAWNS IN YOUR EVER MORE ALARMING
GRABS FOR POWER. AS A GOVERNOR,
I'VE HAD TO MAKE THE DECISION
IN THE PAST TO CALL UP MEMBERS
OF THE NATIONAL GUARD INTO
ACTIVE SERVICE, AND I THINK
IT'S WORTH TAKING A MOMENT TO
REFLECT ON HOW SERIOUSLY I TAKE
THAT RESPONSIBILITY, AND ON THE
MANY THINGS THAT I CONSIDER
BEFORE ASKING THESE BRAVE MEN
AND WOMEN TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES
AND THEIR COMMUNITIES TO SERVE
IN ANY CAPACITY FOR US. AS I'VE
SAID MANY TIMES IN THE PAST,
MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL GUARD
ARE NOT TRAINED TO SERVE AS LAW
ENFORCEMENT. THEY ARE TRAINED
FOR THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THEY'RE
GOOD AT IT. THEY'RE NOT TRAINED
TO ARREST PEOPLE AND READ THEM
THEIR MIRANDA RIGHTS. THEY DID
NOT SIGN UP FOR THE NATIONAL
GUARD TO FIGHT CRIME. AND WHEN
WE CALL THEM INTO SERVICE, WE
ARE REACHING INTO LOCAL
COMMUNITIES AND TAKING PEOPLE
WHO HAVE JOBS AND FAMILIES AWAY
FROM THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS. AND
THE PEOPLE WHO RELY UPON THEM.
IT IS INSULTING TO THEIR
INTEGRITY AND TO THE
EXTRAORDINARY SACRIFICES THAT
THEY MAKE TO SERVE IN THE GUARD,
TO USE THEM AS A POLITICAL PROP
WHERE THEY COULD BE PUT IN
SITUATIONS WHERE THEY WILL BE AT
ODDS WITH THEIR LOCAL
COMMUNITIES, THE ONES THAT THEY
SEEK TO SERVE. I KNOW DONALD
TRUMP DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE
WELL-BEING OF THE MEMBERS OF OUR
MILITARY, BUT I DO, AND SO DO
ALL THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE. SO
LET ME SPEAK TO ALL ILLINOISANS
AND TO ALL CHICAGOANS RIGHT NOW.
HOPEFULLY THE PRESIDENT WILL
RECONSIDER THIS DANGEROUS AND
MISGUIDED ENCROACHMENT UPON OUR
STATE AND OUR CITY'S
SOVEREIGNTY. HOPEFULLY RATIONAL
VOICES, IF THERE ARE ANY LEFT
INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE OR THE
PENTAGON, WILL PREVAIL IN THE
COMING DAYS. IF NOT, WE ARE
GOING TO FACE AN UNPRECEDENTED
AND DIFFICULT TIME AHEAD. BUT I
KNOW YOU, CHICAGO, AND I KNOW
YOU ARE UP TO IT. WHEN YOU
PROTEST, DO IT PEACEFULLY. BE
SURE TO CONTINUE CHICAGO'S LONG
TRADITION OF NONVIOLENT
RESISTANCE. REMEMBER THAT THE
MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY AND THE
NATIONAL GUARD, WHO WILL BE
ASKED TO WALK THESE STREETS,
ARE, FOR THE MOST PART, HERE
UNWILLINGLY. AND REMEMBER THAT
THEY CAN BE COURT MARTIALED AND
THEIR LIVES RUINED IF THEY
RESIST DEPLOYMENT. LOOK TO THE
MEMBERS OF THE FAITH COMMUNITY
STANDING BEHIND ME TODAY FOR
GUIDANCE ON HOW TO MOBILIZE TO
MY FELLOW GOVERNORS ACROSS THE
NATION, WHO WOULD CONTROLLING
YOUR NATIONAL GUARDS FROM THEIR
DUTIES AT HOME TO COME INTO MY
STATE AGAINST THE WISHES OF ITS
ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES AND ITS
PEOPLE? YOU WOULD BE FAILING
YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND YOUR
COUNTRY. COOPERATION AND
COORDINATION BETWEEN OUR STATES
IS VITAL TO THE FABRIC OF OUR
NATION, AND IT BENEFITS US ALL.
ANY ACTION UNDERCUTTING THAT AND
VIOLATING THE SACRED SOVEREIGNTY
OF OUR STATE TO CATER TO THE EGO
OF A DICTATOR WILL BE RESPONDED
TO. THE STATE OF ILLINOIS IS
READY TO STAND AGAINST THIS
MILITARY DEPLOYMENT WITH EVERY
PEACEFUL TOOL WE HAVE. WE WILL
SEE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN
COURT. WE WILL USE EVERY LEVER
AT OUR DISPOSAL TO PROTECT THE
PEOPLE OF ILLINOIS AND THEIR
RIGHTS. FINALLY, TO THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS WHO ARE
COMPLICIT IN THIS SCHEME, TO THE
PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO HAVE
FORSAKEN THEIR OATH TO THE
CONSTITUTION TO SERVE THE PETTY
WHIMS OF AN ARROGANT LITTLE MAN
TO ANY FEDERAL OFFICIAL WHO
WOULD COME TO CHICAGO AND TRY TO
INCITE MY PEOPLE INTO VIOLENCE
AS A PRETEXT FOR SOMETHING
DARKER AND MORE DANGEROUS. WE
ARE WATCHING AND WE ARE TAKING
NAMES. THIS COUNTRY HAS SURVIVED
DARKER PERIODS THAN THE ONE THAT
WE'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW.
AND EVENTUALLY THE PENDULUM WILL
SWING BACK MAYBE EVEN NEXT YEAR
DONALD TRUMP HAS ALREADY SHOWN
HIMSELF TO HAVE LITTLE REGARD
FOR THE MANY ACOLYTES THAT HE
HAS ENCOURAGED TO COMMIT CRIMES
ON HIS BEHALF. YOU CAN DELAY
JUSTICE FOR A TIME, BUT HISTORY
SHOWS YOU CANNOT PREVENT IT FROM
FINDING YOU EVENTUALLY. IF YOU
HURT MY PEOPLE, NOTHING WILL
STOP ME. NOT TIME OR POLITICAL
CIRCUMSTANCE FROM MAKING SURE
THAT YOU FACE JUSTICE UNDER OUR
CONSTITUTIONAL RULE OF LAW. AS
DR. KING ONCE SAID, THE ARC OF
THE MORAL UNIVERSE IS LONG, BUT
IT BENDS TOWARD JUSTICE. HUMBLY,
I WOULD ADD, IT DOESN'T BEND ON
ITS OWN. HISTORY TELLS US WE
OFTEN HAVE TO APPLY FORCE NEEDED

[admin]

Trump Admin FIRED ME for Israel Dissent
Breaking Points
Aug 25, 2025 Breaking Points

Krystal and Saagar are joined by Shahed to discuss his firing from the Trump admin.



Transcript

Very excited now to be joined by Shahed
Goreshi. He is a former State Department
employee who was sumearily fired
recently. Let's go and put this up there
on the screen. Fired this official over
internal debates over Israel. Geresi
recommended expressing condolences for
slain journalists in Gaza and exposing
the forced displacement of Palestinians.
According to documents reviewed, he was
then fired days later. So, Shide, thank
you so much for joining us on the show.
We appreciate it.
Glad to be here. All right. So, uh,
let's start off with the top. You were
recently fired from the State
Department. The State Department says
that they won't comment, but they're
basically accusing you of leaking. Uh,
it appears that a lot of this comes down
to internal debates over Israel. First
and foremost was about this journalist
statement. So, why don't you describe
this statement, what it was, and why you
think it got it, why it got you fired.
Sure. So, uh, Sunday, August 10th, we
got the breaking news that Anas and his
colleagues were killed in Gaza while uh,
sleeping in a tent. Uh it's very common
when you're in a press officer to
receive one-off questions from
reporters, right?
Um so we we got one submitted is what's
your response? A general open-ended,
right? Somebody like me is like, "Hey,
what's the department government's
response?"
Exactly. And when you read an article,
you you'll often read a State Department
spokesperson said X. That's usually just
us emailing one of the press office
emailing the op-ed or the uh journalist.
And so in that in that specific
instance, I drafted um we're still
gathering information, which is still
true, like it just broke. Uh and my
second bullet was we are sharing
condolences which is I think a human and
uh uh response that's also in line with
US interest like we do want to have that
line out there and immediately I was
told that we don't know what happened
and we don't know what he did so to
pause and then by tomorrow by the next
day August 11th which is a Monday uh
Israel said that he was Hamas and then
that was the line we ended up going with
um by the press briefing.
Okay. And so that how did that lead to
your firing though? This is the first
Right. I think it was a buildup. So it
was that was the Sunday. Monday I
drafted a line saying we're against uh
force displacement of Gazins to South
Sudan. Okay.
Uh they cut that line out.
Uh and I think that was some sort of
flag for them as well. And then by day
three, I think the the nail in the
coffin uh was me removing the line in
reference to Judea and Samaria um in my
press guidance. That was not in line
with anything the State Department had
been saying at the time, but it's
something that the senior officials at
Embassy Jerusalem wanted. So at that
point uh it was I was flagged up and by
uh Sunday I was gone.
Okay.
Which senior officials and what is your
did they directly sort of confront you
about these um about you you know
expressing condolences for journalists
and saying it's the West Bank not in
Samaria by the way. Um what is your how
did you gain the understanding that
those are the reasons why they let you
go?
Sure. So, some of it's obviously the
Washington Post reporting, but from my
end uh it was uh David Milstein that was
often pushing a particular agenda in the
building and that
and this is Ambassador Huckabe
senior adviser. Okay.
And he would often um uh ask for certain
lines or certain statements. I know the
Washington Post reported on the Ireland
statement and he would uh go around the
building try to get this through and it
was in a more basic level was very
annoying to like navigate his his his
request. In that particular uh instance
with the Jude and Samaria line, that's
not a line. Ambassador Huckabe is using
it, but it wasn't common for anyone in
DC to use it.
Explain why. Why does that matter? Jude
and Samaria versus West Bank and Gaza.
Because that was a raer for the
Palestinians living in in in the West
Bank. Uh and it also really undermines
uh our relationship with our partners in
the region. And al and third, it's for
an Israeli audience. So it makes sense
for Ambassador Huckabe to want to use
those terms.
Sure. Um, and at that point, um, I I I
wasn't the only one in the building that
wanted that removed. And, uh, so I went
in, um, cut that line. The line we had
been using for the West Bank, which was,
you know, a very general response. It
was like, we support stability in the
West Bank, uh, which protects Israeli
security. And like saying we support
stability in the West Bank could be
perceived with someone who is a
pro-Israel hardliner as like somehow
maybe if you're in that mindset
condemning Israel cuz like you oh you're
saying that we're not we're making
unstable by doing this. I think that's
how it's perceived even though I think
it's a very standard
kind of simple line. Um and by the next
day, Wednesday, I was asked by uh people
in the spokes uh spokesperson office um
that who draft who tried to draft that
line and they wanted to connect with
Milstein to discuss it around me. So if
they're having discussions with Milstein
on Wednesday um and those three events
happened in a row and then on Thursday
and Friday which was my last happened my
last two days I didn't know it was odd
the question I was receiving um from
from senior number of uh people in
leadership in NEA um twice once Thursday
and again Friday morning was where did
that line on Monday come from about
force displacement I was like that line
on Monday that was like 4 days ago why
are you why are people asking about it 4
days later and I was asked to compile
like an entire history of where like the
evidence of how I cleared it. I was like
I have evidence of clearing this
and special envoy Wickoff and President
Trump technically said something similar
in the spring. So I'm very in line with
what the administration had been saying.
Um and but that seemed to be the excuse
at that point.
Can you explain what is your
understanding of what the
administration's policy is visav Gaza?
Well, that's it's a good question
because I'm moving forward with with my
firing, I think it's going to become
even more radical, which is I know
shocking, but I think the language is
going to lean into terms like Juda and
Samaria, or are we going to be more
passive on these uh uh force
displacement ethnic cleansing rumors
that are coming through? So, that's my
concern moving forward. Now, in the past
uh on uh West Bank or two-state
solution, we didn't really have a
straight response. Uh it was always,
hey, what's the review on Tuesday
solution? And it would be something like
President Trump understands how I don't
I can't I don't want to use the right uh
words, but it was like something like
it's messy, so we're not there right
now. We need things we need to uh to
release hostages and get
things settled.
So basically a deflection.
A deflection.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So now that you have been
fired, you can speak freely. How long
have you worked at state? How long have
you worked at?
September 2024 was when I started.
Okay. I I started as the uh this is not
what I was technically hired for, but
because of capacity issues, I ended up
covering uh Lebanon Jordan Press right
off the bat, which was a very um quick
start cuz Lebanon was very hot at the
time.
Got it.
Uh and then then in January, I was
officially asked to cover Israeli
Palestinian Affairs, which was odd. As a
contractor, I just started. You don't
typically put that person covering that
fire.
It's very sensitive.
So for your own person, so basically
what I'd heard is, "Oh, he's a Democrat.
Of course, you fired him." Like he
didn't. So what's your response to that?
That's not true because daytoday if I
was an activist in the building even the
quote that Tommy used in the Washington
Post piece that I was some activist I
would have been fired much quicker if
this to be short like if I was going in
fighting on every single line um that
would have hit up really quick red flags
um I did there were flags I did make I
would go up to leadership and be like
hey like on the podium because I'm only
controlling press lines I have no
influence or policy I'm just controlling
language right
so give me an example
um of like the
yeah like what something you would flag?
I was thinking I would flag like on the
day-to-day lines it was difficult cuz
I'm going through a clearance process
but I would look back I would look at
the the guidance and I'd be like
this is um pretty hard line and I would
brief it like I was doing my job at the
same time I would go behind the scenes
and be like hey these lines are uh at
the very least they're not very
empathetic like when we're discussing
famine a month ago it I was worried that
the the language was just like you you
can if you want to do hardline uh
language on the podium you can
acknowledge that you're seeing horrific
photos before you you make your
argument. But that wasn't even
happening. So I was like we at the on
the strategic level there's a moral
imperative but on a strategic level just
is it looks terrible at the podium.
Let's let's talk a little bit more about
that moral imperative. We can put this
uh next element up on the screen. I
suspect you probably have seen this news
this morning. This is a just
horrific video of um these are a
combination of journalists and medical
work personnel and um people who are
there trying to rescue people who are on
the scene. This is a double tap strike.
Um there's been a documented history of
the uh IDF using these double tap
strikes not only to kill whoever they
originally wanted to kill, but then to
kill any rescuers who are coming to the
scene. something that's been reported
out.
You obviously part of what got you in
trouble was just the very basic, hey, we
express condolences for these
journalists who were killed and we know
there have been hundreds of journalists
who have been killed in the context of
um you know of the Israelis
targeting them inside of Gaza.
How as a professional did you grapple
with your own you know sort of moral
standing on this topic? And I don't say
this to put you on the spot. I'm just
genuinely curious like daytoday as
someone who's trying to go in there and
do the best you can and figure out okay
what is the administration saying and
what is our line for journalists how are
you absorbing those images and how are
you thinking about your own sort of role
in this capacity
it's a very good question and in terms
of like my personal views they're
they're not wrong I just didn't show it
you know as often dayto-day when I was
doing my job so it was it was an issue
and it was something that like
particular colleagues I we would discuss
cuz I wasn't only one cuz it could be
the the Israel file but it could be in
another one too uh throughout the
building. So uh there was there was two
I think responses to that. One like I
said to the last thing was I was like
flagged with people in leadership that I
would trust that certain try to make
small changes. Um I do think those small
changes do matter not just because
you're an activist in the building but
because it's in line with US interests
because you can just be outside
protesting but you're not you're just
outside right. So I think that's that's
important to have that balance. Um and
then two u this is a very more strategic
uh response that I stepped back and
looked at President Trump's words and if
you look we we started with a ceasefire
um in that context
um and in the region we were talking
with the Iranians for example. So I had
on a macro level some hopes that even
though these lines are are difficult
right now in this moment there could be
a chance that something could come about
but it was it was uh getting worse not
better by the summer
because by June we're you know bombing
Iran
and uh now um the embassy Jerusalem
really took over the push back that I
did see a little bit.
Let's talk about that cuz that's what
I'm curious about. There has been a
flipping right in the initial policy
from ceasefire talking with the Iranians
talking with Putin to now it's like the
opposite. So you talk about there the
embassy in Jerusalem. What was your
observation having seen that from the
inside? How did we go from Steve Wickoff
constantly going to Doha talking about
ceasefires or meeting with the Iranians
to then using that as cover to bomb them
and then also uh for basically allowing
Mike Huckabe to have cart blanch over
the Israel policy?
That's good question. So on the White
House level, I can't say cuz President
Trump I don't know what phone calls he's
having dayto-day that like that's that's
shifting his direction. Yeah. But on on
my end, what I'm noticing is people were
I remember people when when President
Trump was um uh elected, inaugurated,
people were happy that the Pompeo and
the Boltons and Nikki Haley's were gone.
All true. These are all positive
developments. Um and then you would see
you know Elon was talking to the uh uh
certain like the Iranians in one end and
um so there are these small and the
Wickoff wanted to make deals wanted to
end the war um in Ukraine wanted to end
the war in Gaza wanted to make a deal
with Iranians. So, I do think that the
personnel is still an issue. Like people
are are glad that yeah, John Bolton
might not be there, but having Secretary
Rubio and and Huckabe is kind of the
same thing, but a more sneaky level,
right? You don't it's not as
in your face as Bolton,
but Secretary Rubio does kind of mirror
um some of uh President Trump's
language. Like he wants peace, he wants
to end wars, but you look at his team,
it's all like a number of Heritage
Foundation guys. Now, you can say it's
his prerogative. Of course, it's
President Trump won. He doesn't have
Heritage Foundation guys on his team,
but on foreign policy, that's not in
line with what his agenda was supposed
to be.
And the same thing goes with Ambassador
Huckabe there. So, um, they're going to
say that I was some political activist.
I think they're the political activists
that are undermining what President
Trump claimed to have wanted and
campaigned on initially.
Got it. Um, with regard to Huckabe, uh,
we saw one moment where there was a
little bit of push back from him on the
Israelis after they had, what was it?
They had like bombed a church, right?
Yeah. It was the Christians.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, um, there was some sort of
statement that went out and then after
that, he just went back to being, you
know, totally on board with the most
extreme uh, versions of the the
Netanyahu government. from the inside,
what were the issues that were most
difficult for this administration to
grapple with? Because it seemed like,
yeah, when Christians were being killed
and attacked, that was one that was hard
for them to ignore and hard for them
just to accept. Were there other things
like that that you saw that were like,
you know, a little bit difficult for
them to just totally do the pro-Israel
spin on? the the Christian thing was the
only like Christians being targeted um
in a uh by by settlers in the West Bank
and the church in Gaza was the only time
I saw some verbal accountability. He
even had a statement I was like I was
shocked at the time that was like houses
of worship must be protected like in I
don't remember the exact language he
brought up mosques. I'm like well
like there's more you can say there. Um
so that was the only accountability that
I saw. What was frustrating is that
every time there was a settler attack
that was horrific or the case with with
the journalists um or just your like
terrible air strike that killed x number
of Palestinians in Gaza, it was always
defer to Israel and so it was like well
we can defer to the government of Israel
to to explain their air strike.
Well okay so then here's the question.
So did you work on any other countries
while you were on in state any other
portfolios you
it was it was uh it was Lebanon Jordan I
started for a few months um but that
shifted by
So based on your observation is there
any country else in the world that we
treat with the same level of difference.
Give me an example from on the inside.
No no so if there if someone had um an
issue we would we would like we would
always have our own like intelligence or
our own commentary on every issue. Now I
can't think of one um off the top of my
head but like in the Lebanon Jordan case
maybe um we would have a lot of our
lines had accountability like we would
say again it's a different
administration and again
um there are issues there too obviously
but just terms of like language and
again I'm working with words not with
policy so
um I'll use that as an example um but
there would be um
air strikes against like these Roman
ruins in Lebanon then they would be like
oh these sites need to be protected or
journalists must be protected
And um uh we would have those lines
built in very easily. It was very like
made sense.
But we're immediately like even the case
with us the line that I response was
like don't respond. We don't know what
he did. You're already preempting the
refer to Israel line. It's not like oh
let's check you could say
before they even came out from us.
Yeah. Yeah. We were even Yeah. They're
already saying what did he do? And so
it's like okay let's say you want you're
the government you're the US government.
You want to do your due diligence. You
don't want to go out. You don't have to
respond right away. um you're not
tweeting your policy. If you want to
say, "Hey, let's give it 48 hours. We'll
check our sources and then on Tuesday at
the daily press briefing, then we'll
give condolences." That I would
understand, but they weren't even doing
that. It was like he probably did
something, you know, and then the next
day Israel comes out with those.
So, it's just total difference on
total difference.
We we witnessed some of this publicly in
the context of the decision to um join
Israel in striking Iran. uh Tulsi
Gabbard famously testified, hey, you
know, we don't see any indication that
they're pursuing a nuclear weapon. Then
the justification given by the Trump
administration was actually reliant on
Israeli intelligence versus our own
intel assessment. You were you witness
to to any of that and how that played
out internally?
Right. Well, it went from um there were
people like I mean I'm I'm not I wasn't
working on that file per se, but of
obviously you have your colleagues are
in the building. you talk to people
working on it uh and whatnot and what I
would hear is that from it went from um
certain people being like oh we're close
what the next steps were on the
negotiations to all of a sudden like oh
well um even certain people were closer
to the administration um like oh well
Iran didn't respond to our the deal we
had on the table that was like
like two weeks ago those same people
might have said like oh we're we might
get a deal done so it was quick to
follow it's a very like um on more macro
level, it's more like a MAGA thing,
right? You kind of like you're there
with them when the talks are happening,
you're there with them when
the the um bombs are dropping. So, but
on the on the level of the intelligence
and and Tulsi just on the on a personal
front, that was ridiculous cuz she
because they were automatically
undermining her own words from the I
think was a congressional um discussion.
So,
yeah, from just months earlier, were
there people So, we talked about like
some of the problems and Huckabe
effectively taking over a lot of policy
visa v Israel. Were there people uh who
you worked with or who you you know
interacted with who were really trying
to take uh a different approach who were
upset about the um you know using
diplomacy with Iran as basically cover
to allow Israel to bomb them who were
you know looking to acknowledge
journalists shouldn't be murdered during
a war. Were there people who were
looking for that different approach and
who were committed to it um and you know
sort of fighting that fight on the
inside? uh in general I think the like
the political appointees do have the
lead so it's difficult to make those
changes but when you're um when you have
influence on even on a mid level like a
mid me as a press officer you can have
those discussions there were people that
like yeah were political appointees that
you could have a sit down discussion
with and be like hey this isn't right
and there were actually people that were
easier to talk to than others right you
knew who to talk to like it was it was a
bit of a a tight rope constantly of like
okay like even saying this with this
person might be might be flag with this
person I can have this discussion and it
was sometimes it was it could have been
effective and I think those small
changes I know people on the outside
might be like like why were you there or
whatever but those small changes do make
a difference cuz then someone says
something about um hey this airirst
strike was wrong or we have provided
condolences that leads to then
journalists being able to provide
accountability because they'll say hey
you said x then
right
when if you go for full hardline then
that's your policy
so is that your assessment now with your
firing that's where you think things I
It's already kind of was the policy, but
you just think it'll be even more mad.
Yeah. Like if it is. So if if um if the
my replacement or whoever goes in front
of me, who knows? I'm not sure what's
going to happen. I think um they they
realize that like it's going to be a
political point or what. I don't I'm not
sure. But um uh no one's going to want
to push back after what happened to me.
And I wasn't someone who uh was like a
random press officer. Like I was pretty
well established. I was the guy not only
was I was doing the longest briefings. I
my my colleagues in the room I had to do
a full like 20-minute briefing with the
spokesperson whereas someone else might
be much shorter. Um I was also the
person who was
on social level organizing the happy
hours with just internally or with
reporters. I was like in a in a position
of I felt very secure and I was close
with a lot of colleagues. Uh, and to go
from that and and firing me very
quickly, I think it sends uh like a
chilling effect um through the building
and an NEA of tow the line and now uh
what's the spokesperson going to do?
They're going to listen to the next
press officer or are they going to call
the David Milsts of the world or him
specifically before he goes to the
podium to make sure he's covered?
Right. And do you think that was part of
the intent in firing you was to send
that chill? Oh, I do. Yeah. Send that.
I do 100%. Well, Chad, we appreciate you
joining us, man. It was a lot of
insight. I think the audience will find
it very insightful.
Yeah, I certainly did. Thanks.
Thank you for having me. My
pleasure.
Hey, if you like that video, hit the
like button or leave a comment below. It
really helps get the show to more
people.
And if you'd like to get the full show,
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you can sign up at breakingpoints.com.
That's right. Get the full show. Help
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at breakingpoints.com.

[admin]

Court tosses Trump administration lawsuit against Maryland judges
by Ella Lee
The Hill
08/26/25 11:05 AM ET
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... dismissed/

A federal judge on Tuesday threw out the Justice Department’s lawsuit against all 15 federal district judges in Maryland over an order slowing down speedy deportation efforts, calling the administration’s attacks on the judiciary “unprecedented and unfortunate.”

U.S. District Judge Thomas Cullen, an appointee of President Trump who sits on a federal court in Virginia, dismissed the lawsuit challenging a May standing order that automatically blocks the deportation of migrants in Maryland who file legal challenges over their detention for two business days.

The Trump administration had argued that the order, which was signed by the chief judge of the U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland, interferes with the executive branch’s powers and violate various rules.

“Fair enough, as far as it goes,” Cullen wrote. “If these arguments were made in the proper forum, they might well get some traction.”

But the judge explained that, instead of challenging the standing order through the proper channels, it chose a “different, and more confrontational, path entirely” by suing the entire Maryland bench.

In a footnote, he took it a step further.

“Indeed, over the past several months, principal officers of the Executive (and their spokespersons) have described federal district judges across the country as ‘left-wing,’ ‘liberal,’ ‘activists,’ ‘radical,’ ‘politically minded,’ ‘rogue,’ ‘unhinged,’ ‘outrageous, overzealous, [and] unconstitutional,’ ‘[c]rooked,’ and worse,” Cullen wrote.

“Although some tension between the coordinate branches of government is a hallmark of our constitutional system, this concerted effort by the Executive to smear and impugn individual judges who rule against it is both unprecedented and unfortunate.”

In tossing the lawsuit, Cullen said he agreed “nearly across the board” with the judges who argued the action must be dismissed because it amounted to a political dispute between two coequal branches of government. The judges also argued that because standing orders are quintessential judicial actions, they must be immune from the suit.

Cullen said that to rule any other way but dismissing the suit would “run counter to overwhelming precedent, depart from longstanding constitutional tradition, and offend the rule of law.”

Still, he said, the Trump administration is not without recourse.

“Far from it,” Cullen wrote. “If the Executive truly believes that Defendants’ standing orders violate the law, it should avail itself of the tried-and-true recourse available to all federal litigants: It should appeal.”

The standing order, signed by U.S. District Judge George Russell, cited an “influx” of habeas petitions from detained migrants as the Trump administration ramped up deportations, noting the challenges to the legality of a person’s detention have often been filed outside normal court hours, resulting in scheduling challenges and “hurried and frustrating hearings.”

The Hill requested comment from the Justice Department, which appealed Cullen’s ruling later Tuesday.

Updated: 5:36 p.m. ET

[admin]

Trump EPSTEIN RELEASE Only GETS WORSE… INSTANT Backfire
Legal AF
Aug 26, 2025

The Court of History’s Sidney Blumenthal launches a powerful new three-part series with journalist Nina Burleigh. Together, they dive into sex, lies, and the explosive Maxwell deposition, exposing the Trump cover-up, phony testimony, and the failed effort to bury the Epstein–Trump scandal. This is Part 1 of 3, setting the stage for a deeper investigation into one of the most shocking political and legal sagas of our time.



Transcript

Welcome to the Court of History. I'm
Sydney Blumenthal. The court is now in
session. There's so much going on. We
always find ourselves at the end of a
fire hose with events. But uh one of the
constants now, of course, is the Jeffrey
Epstein scandal.
And um Glenn Maxwell has finished her
testimony. She's been transferred
to a country club prison in Texas. Uh,
and yet the controversy goes on. Well,
there's no one better here to talk about
it than Nina Burley.
And I'm delighted to have her here on
the Court of History. Nah's an old
friend. She is a journalist and
historian and author who for years has
delved deeply into the Jeffrey Epstein
and Glenn Maxwell cases.
In 2021, she was the executive producer
of a three-part documentary about
Maxwell Epstein's shadow. She is the
author of The Trump Women: Part of the
Deal. She's also the author of a very
private woman, the life and unsolved
murder of Mary Meyer, which is a big
Washington
story um that involves the ex-wife of a
CIA
officer and the sister-in-law of Ben
Bradley.
and she's written a book about the
Smithsonian, which we'll talk about, The
Stranger and the Statesman, James
Smithson, John Quincy Adams and the
Making of America's Greatest Museum,
among other books. She was a national
political correspondent for Newsweek and
covered the White House in the '9s for
Time magazine. her Substack, which is
very important to read, American Freak
Show, very well named, covers the Trump
dystopia.
So, welcome, Nenina.
Thank you so much for that uh
introduction,
Sydney. I'm delight I'm delighted to be
here.
Have you read the whole interview with
Glenn Maxwell? I have read it and I have
to say when I started reading it I
literally burst out laughing. Um uh it
begins like an Oscar Wild play but it
ends like a Tennessee Williams play. So
I laughed and I cried. Um uh she uh
comes on like a gibbering gossip um and
ends
completely delusional um uh in just in
infanalized by her fantasies
uh and lying her head off. And Todd
Blanch to me is is the st is is on a man
on a mission which is to exonerate
Trump. What do you think? What do you
think of that interview?
Well, exactly. I mean, I went through it
also. Um,
you know, as you said, I worked on that
documentary, three-part documentary,
still streaming on Peacock. You can
watch it on, I think, Apple uh TV. It's
called Epstein's Shadow, Galain Maxwell.
And we spent
hours, the producers, director and I,
um, and some of the researchers, we
spent hours on the phone on these Zoom
meetings, um, trying to sort of discuss
and sus out what the what her story was,
the psyche of the what, you know, what
would how does a woman like her um,
raised in in the British, you know,
aristocracy or close to the royal
family. Um you know upper upper class
person come to be to be associated with
this industrial scale sex trafficking
operation that appears to be somehow
aligned with intelligence um gathering
or blackmail. How she comes to be a um
procure.
What did you learn? What did you decide
about her character that led her into
this?
Well, we did we talked a lot about
Robert Maxwell, her father, who was this
um large, cruel, oish man. Um and a
major mysterious figure in sort of 20th
century espionage. um he she's the 10th
uh child of um of this guy and
uh he's extremely cruel and so I think
some of the things that
he was a newspaper magnet in Britain
well he's a newspaper magnet but before
he was a newspaper magnet he was
actually kind of acting in uh in concert
with the um intel probably MI6 and he
was a publisher of a scientific journal
that managed to get hold of all these
Russian and Eastern European scientific
papers.
He was Czech born, wasn't he?
He's Czechorn of I think
Eastern European himself.
Or well, he's Orthodox. I think he was
from an Orthodox Jewish family and he
was Czechorn and he I think is the only
survivor of his family from the
Holocaust. He left Czechoslovakia
and joined the British military um and
completely remade himself. He had a
Czech name and he changed his name to um
Maxwell. The story is that he changed it
basically because he saw a pack of
cigarettes or something that were called
Maxwells and he became he he aped the um
upper class British accent and you know
really kind of a a fascinating figure
but also um unscrupulous
um mobbed up in all sorts of um
activities including
right
pardon me
arms dealing including
arms dealing um you know working with
the CIA and the and the and the MOSAD to
get the promise software into Russia.
Um, you know, he was mobbed up, I think,
a little bit in the Iran um in the um
October surprise stuff with with um with
the Iranians and the Israelis. Um he was
just all over the place. He was very
tied in with the with the Eastern
European communists. He was ma he
managed to involve himself with those.
He was involved in the Soviet um the
Soviet the operation. He moved Soviet
Jews to Israel. So he was very hooked up
with the Israeli intelligence community.
He
was also a swindler, wasn't he?
And a major swindler. and the um you
know he dies mysteriously um right at
this point when he's basically they've
looted the pension fund of as you said
this British media company that he was
head of for to the tune of I think $500
million I can't remember the number but
a huge number of uh of people lost their
uh like lost their pensions and he fell
off of a of his yacht. It's interesting.
It's uh in her life that it's a a
mysterious death of her father and then
a mysterious death of
Yes. And and let's just say so, you
know, you mentioned that in this
transcript she lies repeatedly and
demonstr Yes, she does. Um, it starts
off in the beginning with the story
about how she met Epstein, which we can
pretty much tell is a lie because,
um, we know, she says she met him in
April of 91. Um, but, uh, we think that
they were in introduced when Epstein was
mucking around in London, actually
working for an arms dealer and and knew
her father and that somehow we were told
that that her father introduced them. Uh
but anyway, she washes up in New York
and she says some girlfriend introduced
her to this eligible man and they
started dating. Uh but very quickly a
lot of things were happening at the same
time. So if we go with her April 1991 I
met Epstein date. What's what also
happened in April 1991 is that Les
Wexner
Yes.
transferred power of attorney over to
Epstein. Right. At the same time,
let's let's say who Les Wexner is. He is
based in Columbus, Ohio, but he's a
major owner of clothing chains and
becomes the owner of Victoria's Secret
and the center of a modeling
models empire that also
uh Jeffrey Epstein is not only handling
Wexner's money, but he's handling the
models.
Yes. and he's using Victoria's Secret to
to um traffic these girls in and out and
used it and used it as a um as a as a
lure to get more young women into his um
into his operation. Hey, I'll get you
Victoria's secret contract and then he
would bring them into his his you know
uh orgies or his lair and they would
they would come out you know damaged and
have been lied to and so on. But so his
his connection with Epstein, his
connection with Les Wexner, the
connection with Tolain Maxwell, the
Epstein also buys gets his hands on his
first private jet that same month that
she claims that she was introduced to
him. And from that month on, we know
from the flight logs that Glane Maxwell
flew on his private jet
to he flew on his private jet 50 times
in the in that following year. And many
of the trips were to Columbus, Ohio.
Yeah. To where Les Wexner that's where
Les Wexner has his the empire the you
know as you said this this um garmentto
art empire right he's he's you know he
started with his dad had a little I
think a little tailor shop or a little
clothing shop there and he he expanded
it um and became extremely wealthy. So
there's this sort of weird I mean the
the transcript uh is it you know as you
say it's far it's ridiculous. It could
be I said it could easily be um you know
kind of boiled down to a um an off
Broadway play with four people sitting
in a room with the where the goal is
really just to there's one goal the
reason that Todd Blanch is down there is
so that uh they can extract from her and
I said this the minute I heard he was
going down there she's going to say well
Trump was a perfect gentleman and in
fact she used almost those exact words
right way and she was blathering away
about what a great guy Trump was for the
first 15 minutes of the conversation.
Well, clearly she had been programmed
and her lawyer had trained her
to say well
I don't think needed to be very
rehearsed in the in the
Yeah. So she says he's a perfect
gentleman. And then of course that's the
money quote because then right away as
soon as this thing was released that's a
headline on on faux news and all the
right-wing influencers are using it to
say see it he you know our our guy
really is just such an honorable
gentleman and and so they're using it to
to you know obviously it was it's it's a
it's a sort of fake transparency
operation and um But that said, for
those of us who were, you know,
epsteinologists who have spent time
trying to figure this one out, there are
in fact some weird Easter eggs in it
that kind of, you know, intrigue us.
Yeah. So, I I have some to bring out
myself to ask you about, but why don't
you display your Easter eggs from the,
you know, from the Epstein. Oh, well, so
one of the things is um I don't it's
actually a funny and you mentioned it to
me in an email. Um you get the because
she she will only call these girls and
women, these victims masseuses. They use
the word constantly. It's in there
probably hundreds of times. The
masseuses that I hired, you know, she
went to they it was all about massuses
and it was all about massages and and
and you get this impression because she
uses the word bathroes a couple times.
you get this impression of like these
men just wandering around in bathroes
having come straight from like happy
ending massages in in these you know in
the in in in Epstein's mansions or in
the on the island and the great quote is
when when he asks her about Alan Dersuit
and she says well he was I'm sure he
didn't he didn't do anything with girls
why I never even saw him in a bathrobe
well Alan Dersawitz of course was
Epstein's lawyer
And he's great defender. And Virginia
Roberts Jafrey, the late Virginia
Roberts who brought all this thing to
our attention originally, um accused him
of um having sex with her when she was
underage or claims that she he was one
of the men that Epstein handed her off
to like a piece of fruit or a fruit
plate and he has gone ballistic to try
to um deny that. So, we should say that
she withdrew the suit and said maybe she
didn't remember.
So,
and he has and he but he also says, you
know, he flew on the We know that he's
in the flights on the flights with
Epstein. He's been on the plane. He says
he was always with his wife. Um, which I
don't know that I don't know that the
flight logs actually confirm that. But
in any case, there's the bathroes and um
and that just gives you this kind of
sense of like this Caligulaesque or
orgastic backstory.
Yeah. gives you a sense of the ambiance
around
the ambiance, the bathroed ambiance, the
spa and the the happy ending massages.
Um, let's see what else is in there. Um,
okay. So, we know that Todd Blanch is
not there to extract any information
that they might possibly need to know if
they were going to give agrieve to give
her. I found Nina Todd Blanch to be like
a George Burns straight man, but without
the irony that he knows he's a straight
man and he's just and he's he's a
gumshoe. He he has no idea. He's with
he's there with Gracie Allen and uh
Golain is just chattering away about
gossip about uh her society in New York
and London from decades ago and he has
no idea who she's talking. He doesn't
know who she's
running through her jealousies and her
friendships and
right and she gets
finally got a she's got a forum to talk
to as opposed to you know the drug
addicts she's thrown in with in the
Tallahassee prison
right but there you know there are okay
so at one point he says um he asks her
about the the rumors that that Epstein
was mobbed up with some intelligence
operation and he says did you ever
encounter anyone from the Mossad and she
says says, "Well, never deliberately,"
or something like that, which is
actually a yes.
And then he doesn't go, "Well, what he
Well, all he says is, "Pardon me."
That's the response to that. And then he
lets her talk on. And then she does she
goes from that to oh, then he says, "Did
you ever meet any international
businessmen or politicians?" And she
says, "Well, Ahood Barack came in and
out." And again he let's just for
backdrop Ah
Barack
Barack the former prime minister of
Israel
he's former prime minister but he also
was the head of the intelligence
services before that in Israel and he
doesn't ask her anymore about that. He
pivots literally from her saying Ahood
Barack went in and out to well besides
testosterone what other drugs was
Jeffrey Epstein taking? Yeah, she she
runs down Epstein's um sexual history in
in um graphic detail.
In graphic detail
about when he's able to get an erection
with
can't get it up
and
well and and then she the other and then
I'll finish. The other Easter egg is is
the horrifying moment where she blames
Virginia Roberts Jafrey for turning
Epstein into this monster. She says, you
know, this 14, 15 year old girl came to
us. She'd already been sexually trained
in all the mean all the all the moves
that a man wants and she, you know,
encounter Epstein encounters her and
only after that does he become this
insatiable um uh monster who wants her
to go out and find a new masseuse every
couple hours. And she and she then
agrees to do that. She calls them
massuses. She denies that she was um as
we know I don't think he actually asks
her but we know that she was she was
cruising like the the Christian college
in West Palm Beach and you know the
streets outside of high schools and so
on and and walking up to them with her
you know her tone her plumby British
accent and talking these girls into
coming back to the house with her and
then and meshing them in this um
yeah the we should say that the actual
indictment
of Galain on which she was convicted,
which contains a good deal of evidence
completely contradicts
much of her deposition.
Completely contradicts and and and the
fact that this thing was called a
profer, right? That's what they called
it. That's a legal term for when a
defendant or their team says, "Hey,
we're going to give you something."
Prosecutors in in exchange for for a
maybe lenient um some lenient treatment.
Uh she didn't profer up anything and he
didn't even ask her to. You know, he
wasn't he wasn't as
he wasn't there for that. The profer was
implied or inferred.
Two things. One was that she gave him
right away, which was Trump was the
perfect gentleman. That's the headline.
So that all the MAGAs can still cling to
the myth of this like the orange
archangel who came down from heaven to
rescue these um you know children from
the left-wing pedophiles and that so
they can keep that myth alive instead of
the fact that you know he was the buddy
of Epstein probably his closest friend
for many many years in New York and that
they were engaged in pretty much the
same behavior with respect to women in
at least in the in the in terms of like
the model, you know, trading them around
and modelizing and so on. I have a
question about that uh that comes out of
the testimony and I do want to say it's
a bit rich that the chief defender of
Trump based on the Maxwell deposition is
Jim Jordan who was engaged in a cover up
of pedophilia
involving the Ohio State wrestling team
and many of the victims blamed him as
complicit and as a silent witness to it.
Um, and there's a documentary about it
on HBO right now, uh, which, uh, holds
him quite responsible.
But here's my question. My question is
at one point she says that um
um Trump she doesn't know
and was not present for the Epstein
Trump relationship
in terms of anything sexual.
So, um, on the one hand, Trump's a
perfect gentleman, and on the other
hand, she says that she is a worthless
witness and that she has nothing to
offer. Of course, Blanch doesn't follow
up on that. And my and part of my
question goes to her relationship with
Epstein. Of course, she had a long
relationship with Trump. I found a
news article where she is on her father
father's yacht with Trump in 1986.
Mhm.
So she's known Trump for a long long
time.
Well, she does say that she knew Trump
before Epstein.
Yeah. which she she did
and but it she may not have been present
with she was certainly present with
Epstein and his exploitation of girls
but she may not have been present with
Trump and Epstein together in such
incidents.
I think you're right. I don't think that
she would have been because she wasn't
you know he she alludes a little bit to
how she was sort of kept her outside of
certain things. Yeah. Well, she was
Here's the thing that I want to ask you
about.
Epstein discarded her.
Yes.
And she kept trying to
uh maintain her good graces by acting as
his procure.
Yes. And he was paying her money. That's
the other thing that Todd get into. A
lot of money. He does say you got $30
million from him. What did he what did
he give it to you for? And she says,
"Well, there's the seven." He says, you
know, he breaks it down to these chunks
that they could find they found in the
record. 7 million. She goes, "Oh, could
that have been the helicopter
from bathroes to helicopters? That could
be the helicopter." And then he lets
that drop. And then he says, "What about
the 18 million? That's quite a sum." And
she says, "I just don't remember." And
and that's the really the only point
where you see him sort of gobsmacked
where you can kind of tell. He's like,
"Well, that's a lot of money." You know,
like how do you forget where you got $18
million? But um you know, he doesn't
drill down into the money and and you
know, that's
that's just one of the many things. But
let me just get back to the um to her
not witnessing Trump with girls for a
second because we found
um you know in the the British tabloids
had their eyeballs on ep on Andrew all
the time. Okay. and
Prince Andrew and and so they they
really have a record. It's not online
because a lot of it was pre- internet,
but there's a record in those tabloid
items about what you know what they saw
him doing and where Andrew was going and
he was always off or often with Gain
Maxwell. They flew on Trump's plane
together from London to Pal Palm Beach.
You know, uh Andrew was shown a good
time in Florida with Trump. But there's
one particular incident that I think is
really telling and that people need to
pay closer attention to. Um there's a
young woman uh young young British model
who she was brought over at at like age
17 18. Um, Anusa de Gorgio was her name
and she's blonde beauty and she is in
Epstein world for three or four years
and in she at at the age of 19
she gets I think it was 19 or 20 Gain
Maxwell introduced her to Trump and this
is all reported in one of the one of the
tabs that you know a New York
billionaire a British beauty has
attracted the eye of a New York
billionaire.
and intro Gain Maxwell introduced them
and in this item it says and you know
the the billionaire was so he so taken
with her that he took her to Florida
with him and Gain Maxwell and then when
they came back he put her up in one of
his apartments
20 years later that girl was on a dine
program that you can still see online
telling the world that she was raped and
trafficked by Epstein from from the ages
of 17 to 20.
What's her name again?
Anusa de Gorgio.
So, people can find that online.
It's in my I have a whole item about a
whole uh essay about it in on the freak
show um in the timeline that I put up um
and you can see it. I've tweeted about
it as well, but I've put those I've put
those articles up on Twitter and
actually last weekend it that that kind
of made the rounds. Those those images
are up. the vi visual on that um on that
tabloid paper. But the point is there is
a direct link right there between
Epstein trafficking raping Galain
Maxwell knowing the girl who was raped
and trafficked taking that groomed
abused person to Donald Trump and Donald
Trump picking up picking up with her and
putting her into an apartment. Now, when
she talks about talks to the deline
people, she doesn't mention Trump. And
I'm told that this is not an unknown
story to people who are deep into the um
Epstein Trump situation. It's not
unknown. It's just that she won't talk
about it. Nobody's actually gotten her
to talk about the Trump part of it. But
the point is that there is this link
between trafficked woman Golain Maxwell
and Donald Trump and it's right there
out in the open. Now, the fact that you
have there's a lot of material in these
tabloids, there's a lot of material in
the public record. What happened with
these Trump records, sorry, the DOJ uh
files, the 300,000 pages. I mean, we
could just go over this one more time.
We know that they that Blanch and and um
Bondi uh and I guess Cash Patel ordered
a thousand FBI agents to go through the
the files and uh tag the points where
Trump was mentioned and even had to
watch a video about how to put that
information into a uh a Microsoft um
spreadsheet. We know this. It's been
reported. So, this material has been
gone over already. And well, let's just
back up a second. A thousand FBI agents
deployed to do something is like it's
like what you do after 9/11 with the
FBI. And so they they mobilized
this operation, this 911 level operation
of law enforcement
specifically to keep this president from
political embarrassment and possible
criminal um indictment, I guess, or crim
involvement, you know, proof of
involvement in criminal behavior. And
all of those documents have now been
gone through. Everyone in the in law
enforcement under the Trump
administration, I guess we should say
lawless inform enforcement knows where
his name is in those papers. Do you
actually think that those papers are
ever going to make see the light of day
now?
Can't get your fill of legal AF. Me
neither. That's why we formed the Legal
AF Substack. Every time we mention
something in a hottake, whether it's a
court filing or a oral argument, come
over to the Substack. You'll find the
court filing and the oral argument
there, including a daily roundup that I
do called, wait for it, Morning AF. What
else? All the other contributors from
Legal AF are there as well. We got some
new reporting. We got interviews. We got
ad free versions of the podcast and hot
takes. Where? Legal AF on Substack. Come
over now to free subscribe.
[Music]

[admin]

Ketanji Brown Jackson Stops Just Short of Saying the Supreme Court Is Breathtakingly Full of Shit. “Calvinball has only one rule: There are no fixed rules. We seem to have two: that one, and this Administration always wins.”
by Madiba K. Dennie
Balls and Strikes
August 22, 2025
https://ballsandstrikes.org/scotus/nih- ... alvinball/

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson issued a dissenting opinion yesterday that did not mince words about the Supreme Court’s eager facilitation of the Trump administration’s discriminatory agenda. It was not the first time she has done so. And it will probably not be the last.

National Institutes of Health v. American Public Health Association is a case about the cancellation of $783 million in federal grants to universities, hospitals, and labs—staggering cuts that threaten life-saving scientific inquiry into subjects like heart disease, suicide prevention, and HIV transmission. In response to Trump’s various executive orders targeting “diversity, equity, and inclusion” and “gender ideology,” NIH took a look at its funding recipients and decided that medical research that costs nearly $800 million (and is probably worth a lot more over the long term) could not go forward.

In July, a federal district court decided that the terminations demonstrated “an unmistakable pattern of discrimination against women’s health issues” and “pervasive racial discrimination.” The court ordered the government to restore the funds, and to stop enforcing NIH’s internal guidance documents for determining compliance with Trump’s executive orders while the case is pending. The government then filed an emergency petition to lift the order.

Late Thursday afternoon, the Court gave the government most of what it wanted, reinstituting the cuts that the lower court had blocked. NIH v. APHA has five mishmashed opinions, but the upshot of the Court’s decision limits the district court’s jurisdiction to lawsuits about the guidance on funding cuts, but not the actual cuts. Challenges to the grant terminations, the Court decided, themselves must be heard in the Court of Federal Claims instead.

In a dissent that no other justice joined, Jackson explained the impact of the Court’s decision, which (and this is a technical term) puts lives in jeopardy for no goddamn reason. By separating review of the grant termination policy from review of the grant terminations, she wrote, the Court created a two-track system that “neither coheres legally nor operates practically,” and that literally no one asked for. “Neither party to the case suggested this convoluted procedural outcome, and no prior court has held that the law requires it,” she said.

It also is not immediately clear what, if anything, grant recipients can do to get their funding back: At best, Jackson says, the Court’s scheme for judicial review is “deeply inefficient.” At worst, it is “likely impotent.”

The real-world consequences are dire. The Court never actually details how people whose funding grants are terminated can get relief, and in the meantime, the disruptions to that funding will stop critical research from taking place. “Make no mistake,” Jackson said, “the forward march of scientific discovery will not only be halted—it will be reversed.”

The most important observation in Jackson’s dissent is that, although the Court’s decision is remarkable in the harm it will inflict, other aspects of the decision are painfully familiar: Instead of “hunkering down” to preserve whatever remains of the rule of law, she writes, the Court regularly opts to make “preventing manifestly injurious Government action as difficult as possible.”

In Jackson’s view, this is “Calvinball jurisprudence with a twist.” Calvinball refers to the made-up game played by Calvin and Hobbes, a boy and his imaginary tiger friend who are the titular characters in Bill Watterson’s long-running comic strip. Calvinball famously has only one rule: “There are no fixed rules.” Here, Jackson wrote the Court seems to have two: “That one, and this Administration always wins.”

Jackson’s dissent is not a mere disagreement with a colleague’s judgment. She is demonstrating that what her colleagues are doing isn’t even judging; laws have little to no bearing on the outcome of their decisions, which are determined instead by Republican policy goals. For a long time, members of the public and the coordinate branches of government have accepted the Supreme Court’s rulings because they assumed, from the outside looking in, that it is a legitimate body to be taken seriously. Jackson is showing why it is not.

[admin]

Nobel Prize Committee Drops SURPRISE TRUMP BOMB
Occupy Democrats
Aug 26, 2025

The Nobel Peace Prize Committee just dropped a major Trump revelation — and it’s stirring controversy all over the world!



Transcript

It is with great irony that I can
introduce this breaking story with the
Nobel Peace Prize Committee just dropped
a massive bombshell on Donald Trump's
dream of capturing the prize he covets
the most. And I have all the satisfying
details for you next. There is nothing
the Donald loves more than bright shiny
objects that glorify his very existence.
And a ritual has erupted by those who
are paying attention and feel compelled
to woo the man's favor with bling. The
country of Qatar set the bar very high
by kissing us but with a luxury
jetliner. Tim Cook of Apple with no
shame kissed the ring with whatever this
is in 24 karat gold. And just today the
US Marshall service director was giddy
to give Trump a fake badge.
This badge comes with this little item
right here
which is a handcuff key. Mr. president.
But really, nothing speaks more to
Trump's affinity for shiny objects than
his remodel of the Oval Office. It now
has more bling than the Liberace Museum
in Las Vegas. And we just don't know
what has devalued 16 Pennsylvania Avenue
more, the Washington DC gunshots or his
golden shower of goddess. But there
remains one piece of bling that he's
desperate to add to his collection. And
of course, it's the Nobel Peace Prize.
In just a minute, I'll share how Trump's
desperation just went to the next level
over what's been leaked about the
committee that will decide his fate. But
first, you got to see this trending clip
from an Indian news channel that
perfectly mocks Trump asking for the
prize.

If only Donald Trump was president in
the 20th century. So much could have
been avoided. The First World War, the
Second World War, the nuclear arms race,
the Cold War, Trump could have prevented
all of it. We know that all politicians
are full of themselves. They can be
arrogant and boastful. But Trump is one
step ahead. He is shamelessly full of
himself. And we saw an example of that
yesterday. The White House openly
demanded a Nobel Peace Prize for Donald
Trump. Listen to this.

[Karolyn Leavitt] The president has
now ended conflicts between Thailand and
Cambodia, Israel and Iran, Rwanda and
the Democratic Republic of the Congo,
India and Pakistan, Serbia and Kosovo,
and Egypt and Ethiopia. This means
President Trump has brokered on average
about one peace deal or ceasefire per
month during his six months in office.
It's well past time that President Trump
was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

I think she missed a few there like Tom
and Jerry, Harry Potter and Voldemort,
Batman and the Joker, and Luke Skywalker
and Darth Vader. If you're going to make
fake claims, might as well go all in.
It's been a hallmark of Donald Trump. He
claims credit for everything. What's
worse, he wants global recognition for
it. In other words, he wants the Nobel
Peace Prize.

Now, just to be clear, a
lot of unworthy people have have
received this prize. A lot of unworthy
people have also been nominated for it,
but none of them asked for it. I mean,
this is not a reality TV contest. It's
not like you can send an SMS to Norway
nominating Donald Trump. And speaking of
Norway, where the Peace Prize Committee
is located, the Washington Post is
reporting that Trump should not be
clearing a space amongst his goldplated
clutter for their medal with a headline
that reads, "Trump badly wants a Nobel
Peace Prize. Most on the committee
oppose him."

President Donald Trump has
long quested after a Nobel Peace Prize,
a distinction that would put him in a
vaunted and exclusive club. But unlike a
US presidential campaign, winning a
Nobel Peace Prize depends on an
electorate of five. And Trump may not
have a majority. Trump's desire for a
Nobel has been a through-current of both
of his terms, but his effort has
escalated in recent months. He has mused
aloud that the peace deal in Ukraine
that he worked on in recent weeks might
be one key to the prize, but at least
three of the five Norwegian deciders
have criticized Trump publicly, making
his path to winning their votes far from
clear.

Trump's campaign has ranged from public
comments with fellow world leaders to a
private push with Norwegian Finance
Minister Yen Stolenberg, who built
strong ties to the US president as
NATO's Secretary General and whose
Norwegian Labor Party has a say in the
appointment of members to the Norwegian
Nobel Committee. And he has taken credit
for ending an ever-increasing roster of
conflicts. Last week's tally started at
six and by Friday was 10. If you think
about pre-wars, Trump said. "But he will
need to win over committee members who
for now at least appear skeptical." The
chairman of the Norwegian Nobel
Committee, Jorgen Vatna Frightens,
decried in December the erosion of
freedom of expression even in democratic
nations, calling out Trump by name.
Trump launched more than 100 verbal
attacks on the media during his election
campaign, said Fridens, 40, who has also
served as the head of Penn Norway, a
group that promotes freedom of
expression. In a nation where just 7% of
people said they would vote for Trump
over former Vice President Kamala Harris
in a poll conducted by Novice in
October, skepticism of the US president
is a mainstream view. Some members of
the Nobel committee make no secret that
they feel similarly.

After just over 100 days as president,
Trump is well underway in dismantling
American democracy, and he is doing
everything he can to tear down the
liberal and rules-based world order,
wrote Kristen Cleé, a former
center-right Norwegian education
minister and another of the five
committee members in May. A third member
of the committee and thus potentially
the lock on a Trump skeptic majority
posted several messages critical of the
president during his first term. In a
photo on Facebook posted the day before
the 2020 election. The committee member
Grie Larson was wearing a red "Make human
rights great again" baseball hat. Larson,
a former center-left politician, also
wrote in a 2017 Twitter post that Trump
is putting millions of lives at risk,
criticizing a decision to reduce US
foreign aid. It's rather unusual for a
candidate to talk like that, said Nina
Greger, the director of the Peace
Research Institute Oslo, a group that
researches international peace efforts
and creates an annual list of potential
recipients of that year's award. While
maybe the White House could brand
President Trump as a peacemaker chief if
you want, remember that genuine peace is
measured over time and it rarely rests
on one leader alone. Greger said the
fact that Trump has challenged and even
undermined international cooperation,
which is one of the areas that the
Alfred Nobel will focuses on, makes it a
little bit maybe unlikely.

Those were
the highlights. And here's another look
at the article if you'd like to read the
full piece by Michael Birbaum.

Trump's
obsession with the Nobel Peace Prize has
always been more about ego than peace.
He has coddled dictators, bullied
allies, and turned diplomacy into a
self-promotional circus. He has not
fostered global unity. And the very idea
that this man could be honored alongside
the likes of Martin Luther King Jr.,
Nelson Mandela, and this guy is
laughable, and the committee knows it.
But what's really telling is the
desperation. The prize isn't something
that Trump can buy, bully, or bluff
into, and the committee is immune to his
ways, and that eats at him. In the end,
the snub will be more than rejection. It
will be a reminder that he's not highly
regarded around the world. And that
goldplated garbage facade of his, it's
symbolic of the fact that he will be
remembered not as a statesman, but as a
con man. I'm Dan. Thanks for watching.
Please leave your thoughts with a
comment below, and let's continue to
occupy democracy together.