Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

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Part 4 of 4

Page 300
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think it's
2 helpful to put this on -- the time on the calendar,
3 because I think without that we, we're lost. So I
4 would say we'll go from the beginning '91? No. '2?
5 No. '3? No. '4? No. '5? No. '6? No.
6 In that time frame, you have the
7 allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he
8 met her until she was --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Let's not talk about
10 individuals.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm just
12 saying.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. I'm with you.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But there's only --
15 but there's only -- so in that time period, I am only
16 aware of her.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm aware of a girl,
19 , who said, but -- and and ,
20 those -- I don't know of any others.
21 And if there are other people who are
22 making allegations about, I don't -- I'm not even --
23 I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them
24 in the -- but I don't know.
25 So I think in the early '90s period, I
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Page 301
1 think I'm fairly confident, and I can say that at
2 least as characterized, it's just -- it's just false.
3 It's just -- it didn't happen as said.
4 Now, did it -- did it happen -- did he --
5 did he involve himself? I knew about Jane, because I
6 saw her come to the house. But I saw her with her
7 mother. I know that her allegations are that there
8 were orgies, for instance. But the people that she
9 suggests were in her orgies, didn't even work for
10 Epstein until '98 or '99.
11 Did he do orgies with those people? I
12 don't know anybody who was there who said that they
13 did. I certainly didn't see it. I can't say that
14 that happened. Did she do it with someone else? I
15 don't know.
16 The stories really start -- the
17 allegations really begin with . And I think
18 that you have to shift his behavior, such as it was
19 bar, there was one in California who made an
20 allegation.
21 There was a woman who said that she -- and
22 she's -- I didn't know about. So I think I would
23 call her the first person. I'd be aware of him using
24 his position to --
25 TODD BLANCHE: But -- and sorry to
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Page 302
1 interrupt you. But I just want to -- I don't want --
2 I don't want to have you -- I don't think it's
3 helpful for us --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- have you kind of address
6 each allegation.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
8 TODD BLANCHE: I want you to clear your
9 mind and just tell the truth about it. So I'm not
10 saying you're not telling the truth.
11 I'm saying just putting aside what other
12 people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or
13 what they testified to or, you know, the rumors in
14 the press, push those aside, you were there.
15 And so when you go back to that time
16 period, '92, '93, '99, 2000, 2001, during that time
17 period, what did you see when it comes to young women
18 and massages?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. Sorry.
20 All right. So I saw him receive massages.
21 He had regular masseuses in the '90s, people who were
22 standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that.
23 He was living in the Iranian house, and
24 now that I look back, he had -- I didn't stay there,
25 but I would go to manage the house. I would see
Page 303
1 women, models, or people that he would have come to
2 the house.
3 I -- I know that I thought that he was
4 with Eva still at that time. That's what I believed.
5 And then subsequently believed that even
6 though she married him, I actually subsequently
7 believed that the baby that she had was his.
8 DAVID MARKUS: Can I interrupt for one
9 second?
10 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Of course.
11 DAVID MARKUS: Can I just ask some basic
12 top line questions?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
14 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
15 room with him and a masseuse?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Who -- when was
18 that?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he would come in
20 sometimes, and he would say, like, give her a massage
21 here, or he would grab my -- you know, but not often.
22 I mean, he did come in from time to time.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
24 room with him with a masseuse that was naked or
25 giving him any sexual favors?
Page 304
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw that.
2 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I remember.
4 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you -- did you
5 ever -- did any of the masseuses ever discuss with
6 you giving -- that they gave sexual favors to
7 Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
9 DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you ever see an
10 underage girl go into a massage room with
11 Mr. Epstein?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 DAVID MARKUS: If you had seen that, what
14 would you have done? Would you have left?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't even conceive.
16 I can't even conceive of -- I can't imagine what I
17 would have done.
18 DAVID MARKUS: All right. I'm sorry.
19 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay.
20 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
22 Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, when I'd
24 seen him on a massage table, I had seen him
25 masturbate. I don't know if there was a masseuse
Page 305
1 present, but I've seen him on a massage --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever see him
5 masturbate with a masseuse -- you know, with a naked
6 woman, either giving him a massage or reporting to
7 give him a massage?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember
9 seeing that.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you give him massages
11 by the way? I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing
12 his feet, and I think, but --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I certainly
14 have been in the massage room with him, and I have
15 certainly rubbed his feet when he was -- we're
16 talking, but I was not a masseuse and I didn't
17 perform massage on him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- along -- during
19 the -- over the years, did you pay the masseuses?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was typically not
21 my job, but if there was nobody else, normally -- so
22 in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money.
23 And in New York, he would do that, because
24 I wouldn't be in New York when he -- I mean, I don't
25 remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.
Page 306
1 TODD BLANCHE: So it wasn't --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But maybe --
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- your -- it wasn't your
4 job --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- on a regular math --
7 basis to pay the masseuse. So if there was a
8 masseuse seven days a week, it wasn't expected that
9 seven days a week you would be the one handing them
10 money?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- mostly I would
12 not. I'm not saying I never did it, because that
13 wouldn't be true. But it was not my job to pay them.
14 I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he
15 would have money or the houseman, and I think some of
16 them would have probably received checks.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And so just picking up on
18 what Mr. Markus was just asking you, did you
19 participate in sexual activity with him with a
20 masseuse, like at the same time?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And so the testi- -- I
23 don't know if there's testimony, but the women who
24 have said that that happened, categorically, that's
25 not true?
Page 307
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically
2 not true.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- moving past
4 the -- and moving into the 2000s --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I just want to
6 say that I have been -- I mean, I remember there'd be
7 times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be
8 in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody
9 else could be on his feet, and we could be talking.
10 So there is that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not -- you're --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- not talking about
14 something that's sexual, you're talking about
15 literally just rubbing his feet?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I mean --
19 TODD BLANCHE: But that's not what I'm
20 talking about, I'm saying --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, they
22 could be -- the -- sometimes the women might be
23 topless who were giving that. So you could say that
24 was sexual in that context.
25 TODD BLANCHE: No, I'm talking about the
Page 308
1 repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with
2 you present and even participating?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did -- in the
5 2000s time period, so moving a little more recently
6 when you talked about it yesterday, about how your
7 relationship with Mr. Epstein changed and was
8 changing and you ultimately met somebody else.
9 Did you observe any, you know, massages or
10 young women giving him massages later on? So after
11 2000, 2001 time period?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sure I did.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And was there anything
14 different about what you observed during that period
15 and the '90s, as far as the frequency, his conduct
16 towards them?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the frequency
18 increased. I think he went from one to two in that
19 time period. And -- but I did not see -- I have no
20 recollection of ever seeing a child entering the
21 house and giving him a massage. I -- at that time,
22 he had moved me out of the main house.
23 I had moved into an office with John
24 Alessi, the former butler, under the stairs. So I
25 had an office where I would be that was not part of
Page 309
1 that -- part of the house.
2 If I saw people, and I'm not saying I
3 didn't see people come to give him a massage, that
4 wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone, let's
5 say, I wouldn't -- I don't remember ever seeing
6 anybody that I would characterize as a child, no.
7 Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at
8 the time when she came.
9 If I did see her, and I don't believe I
10 did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she
11 was as her -- she's described herself now, was very
12 mature and looked in her 20s.
13 So could somebody have come that was more
14 mature looking than the allegation of what she did
15 look like, with a photograph that was produced as
16 evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time
17 seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to
18 give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see
19 people come? I absolutely did.
20 Did I -- I just didn't see children. I
21 didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And
22 if I had seen a child, I wouldn't -- I'm not sure
23 what I would have done.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Well, did you -- just
25 talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger
Page 310
1 picture, do you -- at the time that you were in his
2 life, did -- do you -- was he a -- did he seem to you
3 to be a sexual deviant or, I don't know what the
4 right way to describe it.
5 But when you say to me, he was getting
6 massages every single day, right? So young women
7 were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days.
8 Flew with the women to the island, to New York,
9 Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing
10 him, giving him massages. I think it's -- it would
11 be an understatement to say that that's not normal?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I agree.
13 TODD BLANCHE: We've all kind of been part
14 of the Epstein story over the past several years, but
15 you were there at the time. Okay?
16 What was it like at the time? I mean, was
17 he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing?
18 Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image
19 wise? Like at the time, what was it like?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think if he had been
21 creepy, like, as you would define, and you would
22 expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be
23 creepy, I don't think the women would have been
24 there.
25 I don't think that they thought of him as
Page 311
1 creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave
2 like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was
3 for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't
4 understand why it was interesting, because to me,
5 it's not interesting.
6 But he, as he defined it, he found it
7 invigorating. He liked being with younger people and
8 not just younger people. I'm just saying because
9 they gave him ideas, and they were up to date on
10 music and --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, but that's different,
12 like, a masseuse coming every day.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just telling you
14 what he was saying to me.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, to me, I just
17 found it a drag and difficult and annoying.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But understand I
20 wasn't the only person present. So this time in the
21 2000s, you're talking about other people, like Sarah
22 Kellen, who was around, who interfaced with him.
23 I didn't have to -- she was really
24 interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his
25 life. She was running his -- she was his assistant.
Page 312
1 And so I didn't have to --
2 TODD BLANCHE: That's a fair point. But
3 move beyond the -- his assistants or the folks that
4 work with him. What about his friends and the people
5 that were associated with him?
6 It couldn't be -- it doesn't -- I don't
7 understand how that -- how this is an after fact of
8 Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it
9 becomes part of his story. And then later on he's
10 charged in Southern District, and then here we are
11 now in 2025.
12 But he was a very successful, hardworking
13 guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with
14 them on vacations and went to the island. It
15 doesn't -- I don't understand how he was able to hide
16 this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual
17 fixation or issue --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- from -- from others?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did
21 hide it. I -- that's the answer. And I think that
22 the people around him, I think, myself included --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- obviously,
25 normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One,
Page 313
1 I think it -- because it was a self -- because so
2 many people saw it of so many -- of such a high
3 caliber down that never seemed to think it would --
4 well, if they thought it was strange probably, they
5 never said it at the time. So it became sort of like
6 it was his thing, right? He was always around with
7 women.
8 Now, you don't -- I understand that it's
9 very unattractive, especially in light of everything
10 that we know today. But at the time, the only way I
11 can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and
12 the City, the movie, the show on telly, where the --
13 this is -- that lifestyle is described on the TV show
14 constantly.
15 There are always these women around and
16 men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know
17 like women, and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein,
18 but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the
19 context of the criminal behavior.
20 So what we're discussing now, there's a
21 difference between the criminal behavior and the
22 non-criminal. But you don't like the lifestyle, I
23 concur.
24 I agree. Especially now. And I -- I own
25 my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw
Page 314
1 his behavior with women and didn't challenge him or
2 do something.
3 But I don't -- I don't think back in the
4 '90s or the 2000s, we've had a cultural shift. And
5 the cultural shift, I think is a very important part
6 of the analysis here. Not because I'm trying to
7 justify this, because I'm not, and I'm not trying to,
8 and I absolutely am not here to do the poor me
9 program. So please, don't misunderstand this.
10 However, in the 19- -- 2000s, when this
11 behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the
12 Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the
13 women who were underage 17, 16, I believe if I'm --
14 my memory serves, were actually targets of the
15 investigation and could have been charged with
16 prostitution and trafficking, I would -- if
17 trafficking was even a law.
18 So you're taking -- you're taking
19 behavior. And I did introduce him to women, I did,
20 but not underage women. I understand that there are
21 allegations. I have read them about myself going to
22 schools. I can categorically tell you that I have
23 never, in my life, gone to a school to pick up a
24 child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, like my
25 stepchildren, and all, but okay. Sorry, just --
Page 315
1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Thank you. I
3 just want to be clear that I'm not trying to be cute
4 or anything.
5 But -- and I did look for masseuses, I --
6 I did. I went to spas and if I met somebody who said
7 she was a masseuse, I did not check their
8 credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I
9 did introduce her, yes.
10 If I met friends who were interested, he
11 was constantly asking me for -- to meet new and
12 interesting people. I did -- I did do that.
13 At the time, I viewed it as -- well, first
14 of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my
15 responsibility, if you were, to introduce -- because
16 it wasn't just women. If I met somebody who was
17 interesting, like Murray Gell-Mann or who I thought
18 he would like, I did that. So it's not exclusively,
19 but he did. And I did do that.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but then -- so I want
21 to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked
22 about yesterday more, but a little bit today already,
23 which is everybody that was around him besides you,
24 like his friends.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
Page 316
1 TODD BLANCHE: So I accept the lifestyle.
2 I've seen the photos, the fact that everybody is --
3 we're all going to go to the island for a couple of
4 days, or we're flying on a private plane and there's
5 beautiful women everywhere.
6 Is there any -- I mean, do you, as you sit
7 here today, think that the people around him didn't
8 also -- weren't also of the same place where they
9 were also getting massages where there was sex going
10 on during them, or things like that? And I'm
11 obviously asking this because that's what the --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- that's what everybody
14 has said. And when you just described what it was
15 like, the very next step from that is everybody's
16 going to Vegas for the weekend, you know. And so --
17 and so you -- it seems kind of far-fetched to say
18 that, yes, that was his lifestyle.
19 But then when he's taking groups of folks
20 to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or
21 whatever, that they're all, you know, going to church
22 in the morning while he's getting a massage.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I hear you. I was
24 there, though. And --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
Page 317
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're talking
2 about very substantial people. And you are
3 extrapolating because the narrative that started
4 in -- by the way, not until 2009, is when it really
5 started.
6 So that narrative that was created and
7 then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what --
8 basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People
9 have gone and lost their minds for this thing. I
10 understand that.
11 But the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob
12 who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like
13 P. Diddy in Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I
14 mean, it's -- it's bananas. And while some of it is
15 real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not
16 disputing that.
17 But this was a man, they didn't even
18 believe he had a real business. I happen to believe
19 he did. Did he grift? I don't -- I don't know,
20 because I wasn't really in his business. But this is
21 -- this is one man.
22 He's not some -- they've made him into
23 this -- he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting
24 guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're
25 not going to hear me say what he did to people who
Page 318
1 are over the age 18. I'm sorry. I'm not going to go
2 there. That's just not what I'm here to -- I mean, I
3 -- okay?
4 But to suggest that Larry Summers or
5 Clinton would certainly go, oh my gosh, this is like
6 a guy I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some
7 sex. They're men that went and had a massage and
8 maybe did something sexual, they're men, I wasn't in
9 the room. I cannot tell you if that happened.
10 And if it did, not -- I never paid for
11 that. Just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to
12 me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that
13 was a three, uh-uh (negative). I'd be like, okay.
14 TMI, no, not my business. You want to -- it's just
15 not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that.
16 But did I, like, think these guys were
17 coming for that? I really don't. If you met
18 Epstein, there is no way that this cast of
19 characters, of which it's extraordinary, and some are
20 in your cabinet, who you value as your coworkers, and
21 you know, would be with him if he was a creep or
22 because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants
23 sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have
24 to come to Epstein for that.
25 Now did some? Okay. I don't know. I
Page 319
1 wasn't there. I didn't see it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So when's the last time you
3 think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a
4 massage?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2007.
6 TODD BLANCHE: 2007?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And the frequency at that
9 point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak,
10 would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he
11 was having daily with women and masseuses?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't really in his
13 life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I
14 was with Ted.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And we -- I was still
17 speaking with Epstein, because I was still involved
18 in his -- you know, loosely with his -- the houses
19 and the staff and some of the billing. And he -- and
20 I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean
21 to New York, and Epstein offered me a ride. And so
22 Ted dropped me off in Saint Thomas, and I was on the
23 island, I believe, for one day and one night only.
24 On that visit, I believe -- well, I know
25 he would have gotten a massage, but I have -- there
Page 320
1 were people there, but I did -- that were women. And
2 I was --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just relieved not
5 to --
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- be leaving the next
8 day.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Let's take a break.
10 SPENCER HORN: Well, we're going to take a
11 break. The time is 11:31.
12 (Break at 11:31 a.m. to 11:49 a.m.)
13 SPENCER HORN: We are resuming the audio
14 recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell, and the
15 time is 11:49 a.m.
16 TODD BLANCHE: All right. I wanted to
17 follow up about former President Clinton's
18 relationship with Mr. Epstein, not you.
19 Can you -- we touched on it, but can you
20 just to set the -- I have a couple questions about
21 it, but what's your understanding of their
22 relationship from what you observed? Meaning former
23 President Clinton and Mr. Epstein.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw them talk. I
25 saw them sit down and have chats about, I don't know,
Page 321
1 because I wasn't either a party or didn't listen and
2 I know -- I would characterize, originally anyway,
3 Mr. Epstein's interest in him because obviously he's
4 the former president.
5 But I never saw him -- other than that, I
6 saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never -- I
7 don't believe -- I don't recollect, anyway, ever
8 seeing them in any other context.
9 I don't remember him at his house in New
10 York. Like I said, I don't believe he ever went to
11 that island. I think that was just a -- that was a
12 story that did.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know one way or the
14 other, whether their relationship continued without
15 you, like, when you kind of moved on past
16 Mr. Epstein?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe so.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you say that you
19 don't believe so?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I don't think
21 they had a relationship even when I was there. I was
22 -- I -- President Clinton liked me, and we got along
23 terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that
24 -- that warmth or however you want to characterize
25 it, with Mr. Epstein and cert- -- so I didn't see
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Page 322
1 that. I didn't see any interest in -- I didn't see
2 President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He
3 was just a rich guy with a plane.
4 TODD BLANCHE: When -- when the Southern
5 District of New York case kind of became public and
6 there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein's house,
7 there was like a -- there was some sort of painting
8 or picture with Mr. Clinton in like a blue dress that
9 had been signed.
10 Did you know -- do you know where he got
11 that picture or that painting?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The first I saw it was
13 in the press.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So you never observed that
15 in his --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
17 TODD BLANCHE: -- brownstone?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I thought it was
19 hideous.
20 TODD BLANCHE: What's that again?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought it was
22 hideous.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And -- but you had never --
24 so you don't know, sitting here today, where
25 Mr. Epstein got it?
Page 323
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
2 TODD BLANCHE: The circumstances in which
3 he got it?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know of any other
6 gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former
7 President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, did he
9 maybe get him a gift? I don't know. I have no
10 knowledge of that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And then going back to the
12 topic we were talking about before our last break.
13 Well, when you said something yesterday at
14 the very beginning of our conversation that when you
15 first met Mr. Epstein and you ultimately have sex
16 with him, that he had -- I'll use the word erectile
17 dysfunction, but he had issues having sex?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's what he told
19 me.
20 TODD BLANCHE: That's what he told you?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then over the
23 years, you said sometime in the '90s he started
24 taking testosterone?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. But I don't know
Page 324
1 if it was in the '90s. I don't remember when he
2 started, but it wasn't -- he had patches --
3 testosterone patches --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- dermal.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Like on his arm?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And then he was
10 ridiculous, because you shouldn't take more than one.
11 But sometimes he had, like -- I'm like, what are you
12 doing? It's like unhealthy.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. From what you
14 observed or saw or heard, did he continue to have
15 challenges sexually over the years or do you think
16 that whatever he told you -- whatever issue he told
17 you he had was fixed?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was a lie.
19 TODD BLANCHE: You think he was lying
20 about what?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: About his erectile
22 dysfunction.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you mean you never --
24 you don't think he ever had any issues? You think he
25 just told you that?
Page 325
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. That is what I
2 believe today, yes. But given -- if any of the
3 stories are true, even if he had erectile
4 dysfunction, the thing had a priapism, for Christ's
5 sake.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Well, that's -- that's one
7 of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you're
8 right. I mean -- and again, we're -- we've talked
9 about this a fair amount, but what did -- like the
10 stories of what masseuses, underage and overage have
11 said about him is, are, you know, and what he liked,
12 what he demanded that they do. Whether it's watching
13 him masturbate or pinching his nipples, you know,
14 kind of things that are unusual.
15 Do you believe that? Like, do you -- from
16 what you saw, from what you observed, from what you
17 did when you were in a relationship with him, is that
18 true?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well, the bulk of
20 what I read, he did not have sex. So that is
21 consistent with what he told me, actually.
22 And his masturbating, that is also
23 consistent with what I knew myself. And I'm going to
24 use a bad word for --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Please, you can use
Page 326
1 whatever words you need. Yes.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Blowjob.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He liked blowjobs.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I did observe.
7 And he didn't seem to have any erectile dysfunction
8 for blowjobs, but sex, he didn't have. So when I
9 read the stories about all the allegations of sexual
10 rape, I find that challenging, because that was not
11 his modus operandi, from my perspective.
12 TODD BLANCHE: But when you read about
13 blowjobs, that -- does that -- that would be
14 consistent with kind of --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That would be
16 consistent, as would masturbation, yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you talk to masseuses
18 or women that either he was in a relationship with or
19 who asked you about working with him? Did you tell
20 them, yes, he likes blowjobs, yes, he'll masturbate
21 in front of you?
22 Like, did you have conversations with any
23 of those -- with women about what Mr. Epstein liked
24 or what would make him happy, or things like that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have any
Page 327
1 memory of telling anybody about that. I think I may
2 have joked like saying, oh my God, you know, like
3 from a Sex and the City scene that, you know, he's --
4 but not -- I never instruct -- the question you're
5 asking me, sorry, let's just be clear.
6 Did I ever instruct anyone how to
7 pleasure, Mr. Epstein, your question? No.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And you said this earlier,
9 but I want to just -- you kind of said it on your
10 own. I want to ask the question, just so I'll make
11 sure that there's no confusion.
12 When -- when you over the years --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, can I just --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- yeah. Of course. Yeah,
15 yeah, please.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Right. I just
17 want to say, the idea that I would have to explain to
18 a woman how to satisfy Mr. Epstein is patently
19 absurd, because he clearly was able to explain
20 himself.
21 He didn't need an interlocutor to explain
22 what he liked. He's been doing this obviously or
23 this -- some version of this story his whole life and
24 did not require any help from me.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Then -- so did you ever
Page 328
1 observe him having sex with a masseuse? Regular
2 intercourse, not a blowjob, nothing else, where you
3 either walked in or you were in the room?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw him have
5 sex with any person.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And so how about oral sex?
7 Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex,
8 whether you were in the room or walked in, or --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw
10 anyone give Epstein a blowjob. No.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But you said earlier you
12 did see him masturbating in front of masseuses.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if I said
14 that. I don't know --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Sorry. I don't
16 want --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- if I said that.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question.
19 Sorry.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know for sure
21 I said that.
22 TODD BLANCHE: No, that's fair. That's
23 fair.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I said I saw him --
25 I'm sure I saw him in a -- what some people could
Page 329
1 define as sexual contact. Because if somebody could
2 not have their clothes or topless, I would say maybe,
3 I could say that.
4 If I saw him having -- masturbating when
5 someone was there, I don't recall that, I don't have
6 a specific memory of it. I'm sorry.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But no, I'm not --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't say that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I understand, that's
12 fair. Sorry. I'm not ---
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's okay.
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- certainly not trying to
15 put words in your mouth.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no. That's --
17 absolutely no. That's fine.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- and you said, I think
19 in passing -- maybe not in passing. I'm sorry.
20 About -- about, you know, whether other
21 people who travel with him would get massages or --
22 so that would -- when I say that I'm referring mostly
23 to the island or, potentially, New Mexico. But also
24 his Palm Beach residence or even in New York.
25 Do you know of -- do you have a list of
Page 330
1 names in your head or names that come to mind of
2 people that you know did get massages when they were
3 with Mr. Epstein?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there's no list.
5 There's no list of people getting massages. I don't
6 have -- I can barely recall all the people. I can
7 barely recall. I struggle to recall actual people
8 that I met. And I may have met a long time that I
9 had even forgotten that -- about Mr. Kennedy, or I
10 probably brought it up yesterday. It just came to my
11 mind now.
12 So I don't have, and there's no list.
13 There was never a list. There was no -- or certainly
14 none that I ever saw. None I ever heard of, none
15 that I ever witnessed, none that I -- there's no
16 list. Has never been a list.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
18 Mr. Epstein talk about such a list?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
21 Mr. Epstein suggest that he had some sort of control
22 over somebody because of what he knew about what they
23 had done or had photos of him or anything?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard him --
25 no, I never heard him ask questions about that. I
Page 331
1 never heard him. So I've been present many times
2 with masseuses. I never -- who presumably could or
3 maybe did massage somebody, I'm not saying whether
4 they did or not just (indiscernible).
5 I never heard him ask any question of any
6 masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend
7 that was on the island, or in Palm Beach or anywhere
8 else for that, any details about that massage. Like,
9 does he have a funky foot? No, I never heard that
10 because it -- weird.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And I think at one of the
12 breaks today, your lawyer may have showed you
13 something that just came out in the paper, I think
14 this morning or last night. A letter that you --
15 that is attributed to you, associated with this
16 birthday book from 2003 that we talked about
17 yesterday.
18 Is -- did you see that letter.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see the letter.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Is that, in fact -- look
21 like your handwriting or something you wrote?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, I don't remember
23 the letter.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But it does look like
Page 332
1 my handwriting. And it does look like my name. And
2 it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory
3 of writing that, and I don't remember it at all.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember what the
5 birthday book, as they're calling it, what it, like,
6 looked like? Like how it was put together?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
8 TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
9 it?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember it. It was
11 leather-bound, and I remember it being about yea big.
12 It was big. Right like --
13 TODD BLANCHE: So you're saying it looks
14 like -- it's like over 12 inches, 14, 15 inches?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. It was like sort
16 of like a folio size, I guess, or something like
17 that. And like this. And it was brown and thick,
18 about this thick.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And --
21 TODD BLANCHE: So just -- so you -- so I
22 understand --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On heavy stock paper.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Heavy stock paper, like 14
25 inches high?
Page 333
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's about right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: And then around like --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A4. A4. We had A4,
4 because it was done on heavy stock paper, but I can't
5 remember if it was folio size paper, or it could have
6 just been A4.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Oh I see. So it could have
8 just been letter size, or it might have been legal
9 size --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- heavy stock paper.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And the -- so the folks
14 that submitted letters were given the stock paper or
15 how were the letters -- or did you, like, glue or
16 something the letters to the stock paper?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Every which way. Some
18 were given the paper and they did their own thing.
19 Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would
20 put it on the thing. Some I didn't get because they
21 went straight to Epstein, and I was just told to put
22 them in, like I said.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And how was it bound?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It went to a
25 professional binder, who did it like a book that
Page 334
1 you'd see in the library.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So like the glue that keeps
3 a regular book, a novel that you would read together,
4 it was bound that way?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Like a -- I believe
6 so. I don't think it was stitched, but I don't
7 remember. I mean, it was professionally done by a
8 professional bookbinder.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And then after you
10 presented it, or after it was presented to him when
11 he turned 50, did you see the leather-bound book, did
12 he keep it somewhere in particular?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in his bookcase
14 in 71st Street.
15 TODD BLANCHE: In Manhattan?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In Manhattan.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And did you see it over the
18 years until you stopped going to the brownstone?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw it -- I know I
20 did see it, because it was right behind his desk.
21 And after I stopped going, I don't know what happened
22 to it.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- do you
24 remember being told or knowing where the book is now?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. But I -- when I
Page 335
1 received in discovery those pages, I assumed that it
2 had been found when either New York or the island was
3 searched, and I assumed that the Southern District of
4 New York had it.
5 TODD BLANCHE: But I think you said
6 yesterday. But just to go over it again, in case you
7 remember anything differently. You recall seeing
8 some of the letters in discovery.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
10 TODD BLANCHE: But you don't recall kind
11 of seeing the leather book, start to finish?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, but remember, I
13 didn't see all discovery because they were very
14 clever about, you know, I didn't receive all
15 discovery, period. And in fact, very important items
16 were not given to me at all, including witness
17 testimony from grand jury.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So whether -- so you don't
19 know one way or the other, whether it was part of
20 discovery, you just know that you didn't get it. It
21 wasn't part of the discovery that was given to you?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. But there's
23 a -- I am absolutely sure that the Southern District
24 of New York hid very important pieces of evidence
25 from me.
Page 336
1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I assumed that
3 they leaked it because where else would it be, if
4 that's what it is. If it's true.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I've -- just so I
6 put -- I'll say it to you as I've talked a little bit
7 to your lawyer about it. I said to you yesterday
8 that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today
9 was -- was exactly what we did, which is to have a
10 conversation about Mr. Epstein and about you.
11 And I think it's very challenging to talk
12 about everything we talked about. And, you know, in
13 one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So
14 I'll talk to Mr. Markus about kind of what we're
15 going to do next, if anything.
16 There's no -- and I don't -- I'm not being
17 coy or -- I just -- I don't know yet. I don't know.
18 So we -- I have a lot of -- we have some work to do.
19 We'll do it with your lawyers to the extent we have
20 questions or follow-up.
21 And this has been very helpful. I think
22 it's -- it was you, you know, who kind of said you
23 wanted to talk, but we gladly accepted it. So I do
24 appreciate you being willing to meet with us. And I
25 expect that we'll be in touch soon. All right.
Page 337
1 Yeah.
2 SPENCER HORN: This concludes the recorded
3 proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is
4 12:05 p.m., on Friday, July 25th.
5 (Interview concluded at 12:05 p.m.)
Page 338
1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION
2
3 I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify that
4 the provided audio recording media was transcribed by
5 me or reduced to typewriting under my supervision,
6 that said transcript is a true transcription of the
7 audio recording; that I am neither counsel for,
8 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the
9 action involved in these proceedings; and, further,
10 that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney
11 or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor
12 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of
13 the action.
14 __________________________________________
Cathy M. Ayotte, OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTIONIST