Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

There is no shorter route to power than through the genitals of male leaders. This principle guided the Lolita Gambit, played by the Mossad through its "Agent" Jeffrey Epstein

Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:14 am

MAXWELL INTERVIEW
by U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Released: 8/22/25
https://www.justice.gov/maxwell-interview

"If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters, of which it's extraordinary, and some are in your cabinet, who you value as your coworkers, and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that."

-- Ghislaine Maxwell Interview, by U.S. Dept of Justice, Day 2

Image
Jeffrey I remember in the mid 1970s you being a star salesman for our tax advantaged strategies and hedged option program. I was running an account for Bob Maxwell. You always had the ability to know everyone and be charming. Was that when you first discovered the Maxwell teen-age daughter ...... Happy Birthday Elliot Wolk


Redactions of victim names and other identifying information have been applied.

Transcripts

• Maxwell Interview Transcript Day 1 (Redacted)
• Maxwell Interview Transcript Day 1.cft (Redacted)
• Maxwell Interview Transcript Day 2 (Redacted)
• Maxwell Interview Transcript Day 2.cft (Redacted)

Audio Recordings

• Day 1 - Part 1 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 2 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 3 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 4 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 5 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 6 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Part 7 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Test 1 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Test 2 - 7_24_25
• Day 1 - Test 3 - 7_24_25
• Day 2 - Part 1 - 7_25_25
• Day 2 - Part 2 - 7_25_25
• Day 2 - Part 3 - 7_25_25
• Day 2 - Part 4 - 7_25_25
• Day 2 - Test 1 - 7_25_25
• Day 2 - Test 2 - 7_25_25

Updated August 22, 2025
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:15 am

GHISLAINE MAXWELL INTERVIEW, PART 1 of 6

United States Department of Justice
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 24, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General
Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy
Attorney General
Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent
Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell:
David Markus
Leah Saffian
Melissa Madrigal
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1 I N T E R V I E W
2 ***
3 TODD BLANCHE: I am going to ask everybody
4 to put their name on the record here.
5 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. My name is
6 Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of
7 FBI, New York.
8 Today we're doing a proffer of
9 Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th and the time is
10 10:12 a.m. This interview is being recorded.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And my name is Todd
12 Blanche. I'm the Deputy Attorney General. And
13 before we start formally asking questions of
14 Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody
15 that's in this room, in addition to me, starting with
16 you, Diego.
17 DIEGO PESTANA: Diego Pestana, Associate
18 Deputy Attorney General.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And then you heard from
20 Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the
21 United States Marshal Service is here as well.
22 And then David.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Yes. This is David Oscar
24 Markus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: My name is Leah Saffian and
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1 I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
2 MELISSA MADRIGAL: My name is
3 Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Ghislaine
4 Maxwell.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I'm -- I'm
7 Ghislaine Maxwell.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
9 How are you?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning,
11 Mr. Blanche.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Good. Okay. So before we
13 started recording, we met for a few minutes. I
14 introduced myself and we -- we've chatted and now
15 I've told you that we were going on the record. And
16 before we start asking questions, I know that you've
17 been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what's called a
18 proffer agreement.
19 And I just want to spend two minutes
20 making sure that you understand what -- what governs
21 our conversation today. The most important part of
22 this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation
23 agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today,
24 we're really just meeting, I'm not promising to do
25 anything.

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1 I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or
2 any of the judges that's been assigned to your case
3 to do anything. It -- we're just talking. And so
4 that's the most important -- important part of -- of
5 this agreement.
6 However, almost as important is the fact
7 that what this agreement does for you is it gives you
8 protection. So what it means is that the government
9 cannot use what you say today against you, with some
10 exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.
11 But whatever you talk about today, you
12 have what's called immunity. So that means that the
13 words that you say today, we cannot use against you
14 in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one.

15 Okay?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
17 TODD BLANCHE: All right. There's
18 exceptions to that. The most meaningful one of which
19 is that, if you say something today that's not true,
20 that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you
21 for what's called false statements.

22 So I'm a federal officer, I have several
23 officers here. The FBI is here. And if -- if you
24 lie to someone that's -- like me or like Special
25 Agent Horn, it's a crime. So you have to be
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1 truthful.
2 The other exception to this, that doesn't
3 necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever
4 was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a --
5 a criminal case -- a future criminal case against
6 you, and your lawyer or you said something different
7 or took a position that's different than what you say
8 today, we can then cross examine you or a witness,
9 based upon what you say today.
10 So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I
11 can't use what you say against you in our case in
12 chief. However, if you were to testify or if your
13 lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said
14 something that is totally different than what you say
15 today, we could then cross examine you or the witness
16 and say, hey, do you remember when we met with
17 Ms. Wax -- when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July
18 of 2025? She told us and then say what she said.

19 Okay?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I understand.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Other than that,
22 you -- I -- I know you didn't have a lot of time this
23 morning to meet with -- with -- with Mr. Markus, but
24 did -- did you have a chance to go over this briefly
25 with him?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So I've
3 already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- and Mr. Markus signed it
6 as well. So you got a pen, please sign it --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right here?
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- right where it says
9 "client." Yes.
10 And I will provide a copy of this to -- to
11 your lawyer so you guys have it.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay, thank you.
14 So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half
15 ago or two weeks ago --
16 SPENCER HORN: Can you see the light
17 blinking on there? On the Sony? Yeah, there it is.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. We're just confirming
19 that it works and it does.
20 Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a
21 half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me
22 and said that -- that you wanted to speak with
23 somebody from the government about, not only your
24 case, but about everything that's been in the media
25 and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your

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1 case.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true and I did
5 speak to him and I did ask him if -- oh, and did tell
6 him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone,
7 because no one from the government, at any time, ever
8 in the -- since the inception of the case, so dating
9 back to the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and
10 indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time
11 to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I
12 was indicted and prosecuted.

13 I believe that -- or I understand, I
14 should say, rather, that my attorneys, at the time,
15 did tell the government that I wanted to speak to
16 them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone, so
17 that I could tell or have them ask me any question.
18 I've never had any problem to -- to speak
19 to anybody. And I offered myself and I kept asking,
20 if they would meet with me, so I could talk to them
21 and for whatever reason --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was not
24 happening.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I have questions
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1 that I want to ask you, but I'm not -- if there's a
2 path that -- a question that I'm not asking, that you
3 think should be asked, I -- I invite you to
4 volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers.
5 Just to start a little bit very briefly,
6 can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein. I
7 know that goes back a while. And just very generally
8 talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from
9 the time you met him all the way up until -- until
10 his death.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Epstein in
12 1991. My -- I had -- I had never heard of him or met
13 him before. And no one in my family had ever either.
14 My father never knew him. And I'll explain why that
15 is the case. I met --
16 TODD BLANCHE: Where did you -- where --
17 where did you meet him?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had a girlfriend
19 who -- I -- I was -- yeah. I had moved to America,
20 briefly, in -- well, I'd moved to America in 1990.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well "moved,"
23 that's a big word. I'd come to visit America in
24 1990. I had been running my own company up until
25 that time, which was a company called Maxwell's

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1 Corporate Gifts.
2 And I had also been working for my father
3 at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was --
4 in 1990 I was working with a -- a new company of his,
5 a new -- a new newspaper that he was launching,
6 called The European.
7 And I was in charge of launching a
8 magazine to go with the -- The European. And I was
9 traveling at that time from England to America,
10 because my father was looking to -- well, he'd also
11 bought McMillan the -- the publishing house. And he
12 had purchased the New York Daily News.

13 And it's truth that my father always
14 wanted me to come back, full time and work for him,
15 but that's a much longer story I don't think we need
16 to go into at this time.
17 So -- but I was always working with him.
18 There was no escaping it were -- as it were to -- to
19 work for him.
20 So in 1990, I had come over to New York,
21 to help look at some of that. He was having some
22 advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And
23 in fact, I met -- I may have met Donald Trump at that
24 time, because my father was friendly with him and
25 liked him very much.
And I think, should be said

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1 that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was
2 also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.
3 So I don't -- I don't remember if I did
4 meet him or not in 1990 with my dad,
but I knew that
5 that's how I knew about, -- about Mr. Trump.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And this was before you
7 met --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This was before I met
9 Mr. Epstein.

10 TODD BLANCHE: -- Mr. Epstein?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I was already going
14 backwards and forwards in America. And then in April
15 of 1991, I came to New York, but, I can't remember
16 for what reason -- what business reason, but there
17 was a business reason -- something to do with my dad
18 at that time.
19 And a girlfriend of mine who -- an
20 American, told me I -- I -- I had broken up with my
21 long -- I'd been engaged, getting my -- the very
22 long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up.
23 And she said, I've got -- you know, as
24 your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.
25 And I was like, who is it? And she goes, it's --

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1 he's been dating my sister. You'll love him. He's
2 looking for a wife.
I'm edging towards 30. I don't
3 need to tell you guys, That's a very important moment
4 for a girl to, like, think about important things.
5 And sure, I'd be happy to meet him.
6 And so sometime in 1991 now. We are in
7 1991, I met him at his offices in -- on Madison
8 Garden. And I think the most memorable thing I can
9 think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he
10 didn't often do. It had a giant, seemed like a
11 ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow, okay. And
12 that was how we met.

13 TODD BLANCHE: Was your meeting at his
14 office for you to meet him just personally or were
15 you -- were you there for --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was just --
17 TODD BLANCHE: -- work related reasons?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I knew
19 nothing about him.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- he just invited
22 me to come and have tea, and I was like tea, that's
23 English. Okay. But what was unusual, was in his
24 offices. So I went to his offices and we met. And I
25 found him very engaging and that was that.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So that's how
2 you meet him. So we -- and again, I don't want to
3 spend a lot of time, you know, on -- on this
4 particular issue, but what happened with your
5 relationship over the years, from the time you meet
6 him in 1991, up until the time he -- he passed away?
7 DAVID MARKUS: Just give the highlights.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, the highlights.
9 So I -- I was looking for real estate for my dad to
10 buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also
11 looking to move from his apartment and would I help
12 him? And I -- I said, sure I'm looking already so I
13 could look for him. So that's how it started.
14 And then, in 1991, my father passed away
15 and I returned to New York after that, originally to
16 come back and help with the family businesses, which
17 was McMillan.
18 And then the debacle of my father's
19 passing hit the family. And -- and we lost all our
20 businesses and my family thought that it would be
21 best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity
22 of the press and the drama surrounding my father's
23 death in England
24 So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you
25 can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and

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1 we can decorate the house. And it gave me something
2 to do.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Were you in a romantic
4 relationship with him at this point or just friends?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, just friends.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And while we're just --
7 with respect to your father, there have been multiple
8 questions about whether he worked for any
9 intelligence agency.
10 Do you have any knowledge about that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- well
12 certainly my father had a background in intelligence
13 during -- because he was -- I believe he did in the
14 second World War. He was an intelli- -- a British
15 intelligence officer. I think that, my sort of
16 belief is that once you've been an intelligence
17 officer, you're kind of -- always; it doesn't mean
18 that you're formally employed.
19 So I don't think my dad in any formal
20 sense was, you know, employed by the -- any agency.

21 But when you are a very significant businessman and
22 politician, as my father was, you meet with people
23 over time and you, I guess trade business or ideas.
24 I think if -- if that would fall under
25 that definition, that's how I would give it.
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1 Now he certainly, I have no formal
2 knowledge of anything specifically that he did in
3 that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that
4 he did help people, the answer would be yes, I did.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did your father and Mr.
6 Epstein have a business relationship over the years?
7 I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They never met. So --

9 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, they
10 never even met?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- I--
12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or you know they never
13 met?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know they never met.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Well, how do you know they
16 never met?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They -- just
18 categorically know they never met. Well, because
19 after, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if
20 I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know,
21 because I was still trying not to be sucked back into
22 the family business.
23 And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein.
24 And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein,
25 because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked

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1 for Bear Stearns. And Bear Stearns was one of our
2 banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with
3 both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg.
4 So my dad came -- was actually in
5 New York, I think. If I remem- -- I may -- I don't
6 think I had this conversation on the phone, but I --
7 I honestly we're talking 30 years ago, so I'm not
8 sure.
9 But if I -- I maybe I told him this
10 verbatim, because it happened -- I know that what my
11 dad did, whether I saw it or whether I -- he did it
12 and told me later I -- that I don't remember.
13 But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace
14 Greenberg to ask if -- what sort of guy he was and
15 was he even allowed to -- because (indiscernible)
16 so . . .
17 TODD BLANCHE: So they never -- they never
18 met.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't even know
20 who he was.

21 TODD BLANCHE: But they had -- they --
22 they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or
23 certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something
24 that -- that you -- that you knew that they had.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, he never

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1 had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection
2 with the bank. I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of
3 him or knew of him before. And I certainly -- if my
4 dad had known him, right, when I said, this is who he
5 was, he didn't know who he was.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.

7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So he rang Ace and he
8 rang Jimmy, to ask if it was okay that I even knew
9 him. And I just want to explain, briefly why my
10 father would even do such a thing.
11 I've had some -- some interesting things
12 that have happened in my life. And one of them was
13 to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list.
And so
14 after that happened -- well, there were other
15 related -- I'm not going to bore you with all the
16 horrible things in that vein, but I -- if you want
17 the details, of course I can.
18 But after that happened, my father wanted
19 to put a lot of protection on me, obviously. And I
20 declined on the grounds that that would be a very
21 life-restricting event.
You are all in law
22 enforcement, I know you understand this.
23 And so he had told me that, you know, I
24 would be taking my life in my own hands and then
25 whatever. And so I think after that event and
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1 several others, where I had stalkers and all that
2 thing that one has, he was always quite protective of
3 me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and
4 verify that they weren't going to do anything
5 hideous.
6 And so in case he thought it was weird,
7 that he would call Jimmy and -- and Ace -- it
8 might -- you know, you may think it is but in my --
9 from my perspective, he was just -- because he was
10 concerned, I was in America alone and he had an
11 opportunity to verify who this person was.
12 And so I don't know if I was in the room
13 with him, I don't recall. But I know that at some
14 point my father told me he's fine. You can see him.

15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He's safe.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay.
19 TODD BLANCHE: So we might come back and
20 touch a little bit more on that at some point, but --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- I went down a rabbit
23 hole for a minute.

24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's all right. I
25 just wanted to --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: No, that's helpful.
2 Thank you.
3 So -- okay. So you're -- you're now in
4 the '90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein. Your
5 house -- decorating the house or the apartment.
6 What -- what happens with your
7 relationship? Again, I know we're talking about a
8 35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent
9 you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Listen, I think just
11 full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in 1992, I slept
14 with him one time and I was like, whoa, that's it.

15 We're going to be dating, because that's how I
16 thought. And -- and I kind of thought of myself in
17 that moment. Like, because you, I felt if you slept
18 with someone, that you were then dating them.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's the world I
21 came from. But that really was -- well, that's how I
22 thought. And -- but we didn't sleep together again
23 for, I don't know, really a significant period of
24 time.
And when I say --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Like years or?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if it was
2 a year. I don't -- it feels that feels long, but
3 maybe nine months, I mean, a long time.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want to go
6 back to -- I had found a house for him to rent in
7 New York, because he had asked me -- I had been
8 looking at one for my father, and I found one, which
9 was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I
10 think it belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis or
11 someone.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I didn't know that
14 he had any money. It was like, I want to say it was
15 $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune.
16 And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't
17 think you can afford it. He was like, that's
18 ridiculous. Of course I can afford, and he rented
19 it.
20 And that house came with -- it was a State
21 Department house, because it was -- I think that was
22 under sequestration or whatever it was.
23 And I -- I put it back together, but there
24 were certain rules, you couldn't paint, because it
25 had to go back and he gave it back to the country

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1 then.
2 So he had this house and I had moved into
3 a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because all of our
4 stuff had been either lost or frozen or -- or
5 whatever.
6 So he became, in this moment, my life
7 line
, really, because I was -- everything was --felt
8 very similar to this moment, if that makes sense.
9 Anyway, so but I had no key to his house.
10 I had no free access to his house. And in the entire
11 time that he lived there, which was I believe until,
12 the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night
13 in that house. Never ever. Not one.

14 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- so you -- you --
15 you said a minute ago that the -- that you had slept
16 with him on one occasion, and at the time you
17 remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were
18 in a relationship, but then it didn't -- you really
19 were not in that type of relationship.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I thought --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did that change over --
22 between '91 and '92 or whatever and -- and -- and
23 years forward?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I did travel with
25 him a lot.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I would go to his
3 houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house
4 actually in -- no, that's not true. He had the house
5 in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.

6 TODD BLANCHE: In where?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ohio.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had the house
10 in Ohio because of his business relationship with
11 Mr. Wexner. And he had a -- and I had to go and
12 decorate and put that house together. When we
13 traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not
14 in -- but I didn't --

15 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. It's okay, talk.
16 So you -- you stayed -- so when you would
17 travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or
18 even just traveling, if -- if -- if it was just
19 traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed.
20 So sleep in the same bed with him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Epstein told me that
24 he had a heart condition.

25 DAVID MARKUS: A what?
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heart condition.
2 DAVID MARKUS: Heart condition.
3 TODD BLANCHE: A heart condition. Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which meant that he
5 didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine,
6 because I actually do have a medical condition, which
7 precludes me having a lot of intercourse.

8 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- what was your
9 understanding of his heart condition and why that
10 prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean,
12 he liked other forms of sexual activities.

13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, let's come back.
14 We're going to obviously spend some
15 time -- a lot of time on the actual conduct he was
16 accused of. So we'll --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- we'll -- we'll come back
19 to that. So pick up where you -- where you were
20 talking about you traveling around with him, he
21 rented the New York, former Iranian House --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Iranian, there you go.
23 Yeah.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- until around '96. At
25 that time, you -- I believe you said that he was

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1 basically your life, like you were with him pretty
2 regularly.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- no.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I never was with
6 him regularly.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is one of those
9 misnomers.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, at the
12 beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his
13 office. So I would go to the office and I would see
14 him, and I would count in my head when I would see
15 him.
I would count that I would -- that would be a
16 day that I would see him. But I didn't -- I never,
17 ever stayed with him.

18 I believe certainly until '93 or '94, what
19 I didn't know was that I think he was still with his
20 actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson, who became
21 Eva Dubin.
They had been together, my understanding,
22 I think about 10 years. I'm not sure, but that's
23 what I think, 10 years.
24 And I had understood from my girlfriend
25 initially, that they weren't together and Epstein

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1 himself had told me that they were not together. But
2 I don't -- I don't think that was true. In fact, I
3 know it's not true. So they were still together, up
4 until, I think '94, when at some point, in that
5 period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got
6 married, I think in '94.

7 I don't remember when they got married,
8 but her, she was his best friend and his everything,
9 he told me that he always wished that he had married
10 her and had a child with her.
11 And I know that they -- she was family for
12 him for his whole life. And I think even -- I'm not
13 sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is
14 true or not. When he came from -- back from Paris
15 and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the
16 plane.
17 Now, I think that either I read it in the
18 -- in the discovery that I received, or I saw it
19 somewhere. But even if she wasn't on the plane,

20 there must have been some email communication where
21 she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly
22 back.
23 One or the other, I don't know which one
24 is the correct version of that.
But so they were
25 still obviously very close and remained throughout

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1 the time. In fact, he -- he was-- still saw her a
2 lot.
3 And so I also know now, which I didn't
4 know at the time, was that he saw lots of other
5 women. And I know that now, because I can see -- I
6 can see it from the flight logs and I know it now
7 because I can see from the emails.

8 TODD BLANCHE: So, you know from the
9 case --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, not from --
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- that what happened.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I didn't know --
13 TODD BLANCHE: You didn't know that along
14 the way.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I contemporaneously, I
16 absolutely did not know.
17 TODD BLANCHE: So, okay -- so just -- and
18 we're going to spend time on everything you're
19 talking about, but just to kind of close out the big
20 picture of your relationship.
21 So we're now in the late '90s, continue on
22 with, again, staying high level to the extent you
23 can, about your relationship with him.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So after -- so my
25 responsibilities increased with each acquisition that

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1 he had and each new project. So I believe the first
2 thing that he purchased after was the ranch in
3 New Mexico.

4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so what he had
6 tasked me with up until that, and I think that was
7 purchased in '94, if I'm right. So he had tasked me,
8 one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind,
9 I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every
10 state, but many states, to go look at real estate
11 property.
12 And so I know we went to Montana. I know
13 we went to Utah and it was -- it was to go look at
14 real estate. It was fun, to be honest.
15 And then I arranged for us to go to
16 New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico. And then I
17 don't remember how the ranch happened. I don't
18 remember that now, it's lost. And then he ended up
19 buying the ranch.
20 And I think, if I'm right, it came from --
21 well, the Kings who may have been the governor, I --
22 you know, bought the ranch. And then I had to deal
23 with that. Dealing with that was the extent of it.
24 The way that I thought of myself, or the
25 way that I think is the best way to explain how I

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1 view my role, was as a general manager. Because each
2 property, to me was like a -- a hotel.
3 So the ranch was very challenging, because
4 not only that, but it had BLM land, so to help
5 maintain your BLM, you have to have cattle and I love
6 animals.

7 And so the first thing, horses. And so I
8 wanted it, if you're going to have a ranch, I like
9 authenticity. And so I don't think you should have a
10 ranch if you're not going to have the things that
11 make it special.
12 TODD BLANCHE: So were you -- were you
13 paid by him along the way --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I --
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- during this time?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I became -- I became
17 salaried at some point.

18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- my memory is
20 that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That's
21 my memory. I may be wrong
. And then with each -- as
22 it became obvious, because I kept thinking I was
23 going to go home; home being England. And -- but
24 it --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- and financially,
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1 you were not relying on him, the -- the $25,000 or
2 whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on
3 that money to live and his generosity to live or did
4 you have your own -- your own money.

5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there's a --
6 TODD BLANCHE: And again, I -- I want to
7 just make sure we're talking about that. Like
8 keeping it between like the late '90s, you know,
9 maybe, I guess into a little of the 2000s.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want to hit
11 something on the head right now. There's a
12 tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a
13 --
14 LEAH SAFFIAN: A trust fund.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. A trust
16 fund. I have never had a trust fund, at any time.
17 DAVID MARKUS: So how did you live, did
18 you live with -- with -- I mean, $25,000 is not
19 enough to live on.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. So I had -- during
21 this period of time, the secret -- secret, the
22 Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation
23 to my father's passing, and to establish whether I
24 had been involved in any way with his business or
25 with any shenanigans.

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1 I think -- I've told this story many
2 times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat
3 apocryphal, but I'll tell you what it -- my memory
4 is.
5 So I received a letter from them that said
6 about my business, and my memory may be apocryphal,
7 there was a PS that said (unintelligible), I had
8 nothing. There was no -- I was never involved in any
9 of his business, whatever, so I was free.

10 TODD BLANCHE: And were you -- so, but
11 your -- you know, obviously your -- your father and
12 your family had a lot of businesses. Did -- is it
13 because the money, whatever money or whatever equity
14 was in the businesses, just stayed with your other
15 family members?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there was no
17 money. So my father was never attached to money. He
18 was born a peasant, a real one. Dirt floor, no
19 shoes, no clothes -- some clothes, but not, you know,
20 sorry, I don't mean to say -- nothing.
21 And he never -- he was never into that. I
22 mean, there were things that he had his
23 extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane. So
24 obviously you need money for that. But there was no,
25 nothing else.
And there was not a single penny that

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1 came to any of us, at any time, ever.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so when you
3 are talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the
4 '90s, you -- you're -- you're not -- you -- you're
5 very different financially. You -- you're very
6 different financially positioned than he is --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.

8 TODD BLANCHE: -- meaning he's giving you
9 money, he's paying for your -- when you fly, he -- I
10 assume pays for your flights.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:16 am

Part 2 of 6

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. So you -- you
13 -- I interrupted you when you were saying how you
14 were functioning as a general manager. You helped
15 with the New Mexico ranch.
16 So did -- did your role with him continue
17 like that for many years or for how long?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I continued -- in
19 2000 -- well, in -- by 1999, our relationship had
20 foundered. In --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Why?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- well, two
23 reasons: We were never sleeping together again. So
24 we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full
25 sex. Sorry, just to be clear. Didn't mean that we

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1 didn't still share a bed bedroom sometimes or
2 whatever. He had another girlfriend.
3 TODD BLANCHE: He had what?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other girlfriends. I
5 definitively knew that it was over after 9/11 [2001],
6 actually, because we were both in New York
and I
7 don't know, were you in New York on 9/11? I mean,
8 9/11 ...
9 And it was a scary time if you were in New
10 York. You didn't know, I didn't know, nobody knew
11 what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I
12 was in 65th Street, my house.
13 And he wouldn't see me at all. Asked me,
14 his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in hospital at
15 Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And
16 then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're
17 not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you're
18 never going to be there. So for me, that was the
19 line's end.
And he had another English girlfriend
20 actually, from 2000.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Are you, though, still on
22 his -- are you still being paid by him at this point?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so go ahead.
25 So what -- what -- at that point, when you

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1 say you realized kind of it was over?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I mean, I'm
3 talking about the -- the -- I had had, there was a --
4 I had wanted to get married and have children.
5 And Epstein had encouraged me to believe
6 that that would -- I don't know about the --
7 certainly by the mid late '90s, I knew the marriage
8 part was never going to happen. I had believed that
9 maybe in '96, '97, '98 maybe, but then I realized it
10 wasn't that. But I did think that we might have a
11 child, which is what I had really wanted.
And I
12 realized --
13 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so -- okay. So what
14 happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your
15 relationship with him?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Give or take, 2001.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we stopped having
19 physicality. I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't
20 friends. I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his
21 room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will,
22 just not sex.
Sorry.
23 And I started dating.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I met someone that

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1 I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was
2 Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of
3 Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing
4 relationship that ended in -- went on until 2010, I
5 think. And I was with Ted from that time.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet him through
7 Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, indirectly,
9 I suppose you could say so. No, they'd never met.
I
10 was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't -- I
11 was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my
12 friend, not Epstein's friend.
13 And Epstein had flown him and there was a
14 dinner and Ted came to the dinner.
So I guess,
15 indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with
16 his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without
17 him. I had -- was not the --
18 DAVID MARKUS: Was Epstein on the plane
19 when you guys flew?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On that trip, yes.
21 Well, yes. They -- that, yes.

22 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say the -- the
23 dinner was -- was where?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Hong Kong.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so the -- and

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1 you had flown over with -- so who was on the plane
2 for that trip? I don't mean everybody.
3 When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the
4 plane?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: You were on the plane?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Who else, that you can
9 remember? I'm not, you know, you only remember what
10 you remember.
11 DAVID MARKUS: Was President Clinton on
12 the plane?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Clinton. He would've
14 -- he would've had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason
15 Cooper, maybe the two.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And you -- and so why --
17 so -- so how do you meet -- so -- so why did you say
18 that's when you met him and that you met him through
19 Clinton?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, it was a -- I
21 don't think Ted would've been there, had it not been
22 a -- it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came
23 to be with President Clinton --

24 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not to be with

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1 Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense?
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's why I say that.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you're -- you're,
5 so in the time that you're dating, that you're with
6 him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein
7 during that time?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So his -- so it'd be
9 true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried
10 very hard to -- to keep me to working for him,
11 because this is a complex operator.
12 I'm not talking about anything untoward,

13 just the sheer size of the projects. I'm talking the
14 construction projects, the houses, the staff. It's
15 a -- it's a really significant job. And I ran all
16 the properties, the staff in the properties, the
17 management of the properties that -- and all the
18 construction.
19 And we're talking tens of millions of
20 dollars for the island alone.
I can't remember what
21 the budget was for the construction on any given
22 year, it's gone.
23 But it -- it was -- these are very
24 significant projects. And so that was what I did.
25 And I managed the budgets. Well, not, I didn't

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1 manage the budgets, I oversaw the budgets. So I
2 would just make sure that if you said you bought an
3 air conditioning part, I saw an air conditioning part
4 and I could call the island manager.

5 Did you receive the Carrier, whatever, you
6 know.
7 TODD BLANCHE: When did Mr. Epstein
8 purchase the island?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say '96 or
10 '97, something like that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're going to
12 come back and spend more time on the money with --
13 with respect to Mr. Epstein and -- and his wealth.
14 But just so we can finish this, so in
15 2009, you end your relationship with Ted.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2009, 2010.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember if it
19 was '10.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So in that time
21 period, what happens next with -- as far as your
22 relationship with Mr. Epstein?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have one with
24 him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: You don't have one with

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1 him, like you don't see him or it's just a different
2 relationship?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see -- I maybe
4 saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I
5 certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe
6 twice. But I was not seeing him.

7 The only time that I was in touch with him
8 was when the things happened. Like things, I mean,
9 in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case
10 was filed and there was like rubbish that went out,
11 because I needed information.
12 Because I didn't know -- I didn't know
13 anything about what was happening and I needed his
14 help.
A, to under- -- I -- I-- well, that doesn't
15 sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don't mean his
16 help. I meant to have answers, so that I had an
17 ability to defend myself, that's what I'm talking
18 about. I'm not talking any- -
-

19 TODD BLANCHE: So when does that
20 relationship change? So -- so you're working -- you
21 talked about when your -- the physical relationship
22 stopped and then you're still working for him, or
23 with him managing his properties and being -- serving
24 as like a general manager.
25 You then start your own relationship with
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1 another individual from -- with Ted from 2003 till
2 2009 or '10. At what point in that whole period is
3 there like more of a break, where you're no longer
4 acting as his general manager?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I wanted to
6 have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he
7 was clever. I -- I -- I suppose it would be true to
8 say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point,
9 as sort of family
, if you will. Like someone I could
10 rely on.
11 And I should have had more confidence in
12 myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given
13 everything that had happened in my life, I thought
14 that it would -- and I saw how he was with other
15 people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable
16 with him, and I thought this would be -- and he
17 always said, I was like family.
18 So he worked hard to make -- maintain a
19 relationship with me. He was generous with me. He
20 let me use the plane, for instance, which was very
21 generous, he would check in with my mum. He did
22 things that were meaningful to me in that time.
23 And then, it may still not have worked,
24 but that his -- his mother, Paula, had been in a very
25 serious car crash. And I -- she had become sort of

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1 like a -- a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because
2 my mum wasn't there. I could -- I could look after
3 her the way that I would -- sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: It's all right.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The way that I
6 would've liked to look after my own mum. So I became
7 very close to his mother.
8 And she had been in a car crash and in
9 2004, I believe it -- it may have been 2005, I -- I
10 don't recall exactly. She took a -- her health took
11 a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked
12 me if I could look after her. And by looking after
13 her, that meant organizing her doctors, making sure
14 she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Where was she?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She lived in -- in a
17 retirement establishment in -- outside of Palm Beach,
18 outside of -- its West Palm. I want -- I was going
19 to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not
20 called that. I just don't remember what it's called.
21 But it was an old age -- it was a retirement home, if
22 you will.

23 DAVID MARKUS: Todd, I don't know, we've
24 been going for maybe about an hour now.
25 Do you think -- is this a good time to --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. So we'll
2 take a -- we'll take a break.
3 DAVID MARKUS: Yep.
4 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going
5 to take a break, the time is 10:56.
6 (Break at 10:56 a.m. to 11:07 a.m.)
7 SPENCER HORN: We're continuing the
8 proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is
9 11:07 a.m., on Thursday, July 24th.
10 TODD BLANCHE: All right. So just picking
11 up where we just stopped. So -- so you -- you have
12 basically a break. Well, not a break, that's the
13 wrong word, but your -- your relationship with
14 Mr. Maxwell [sic] -- professional and other changes
15 in 2003, '04?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I mean, and
17 over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm
18 with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And
19 then when the arrest -- well, let's go back.
20 When he -- whatever -- whatever happened
21 in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So when he's charged and
23 arrested in what we'll call the Florida
24 Investigations, that's what you're talking about?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I had -- I was not
3 in -- well --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Well, were you part of that
5 investigation?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did law enforcement
8 ever talk to you as part of that?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did you, like, the feds
11 never talked to you --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- the FBI never talked to
14 you?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never even received
18 a phone call.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- did you -- so you didn't
20 receive a subpoena?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Did the state law
23 enforcement ever reach out to you?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.

25 TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, did the
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1 government, either state or federal, subpoena your
2 bank records or subpoena anything from your financial
3 life, during that time? During the -- that time?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not as far as I'm
5 aware. Now, if they did, I don't know it and I have
6 -- I have no idea about that, to be honest. But I'm
7 -- I'm not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe
8 you guys do things that I don't know.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So how did -- how did you
10 learn of that case? When Mr. Epstein was arrested,
11 or did you know that something was happening before
12 then?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the first thing
14 I knew was he had told me he was deciding to
15 redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn't
16 surprise me, it was like a rolling situation.
17 TODD BLANCHE: And, but by that time are
18 you doing -- are you -- like he tells you because he
19 wants your help or your relationship changed by this
20 time where you were no longer kind of acting his --
21 as his general manager?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I was -- I was
23 still around.

24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't gone. I was

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1 with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn't daily -- if you
2 would ask me where he was in any given time, I'm not
3 sure I would've known then. I mean, it was, I -- I
4 felt like I suppose the relationship moved into sort
5 of like a long-term friend-family, you know, like --
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- like I felt he had
8 with Eva, if I'm honest.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So -- so he
10 says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach
11 house.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He -- he asked me
13 specifically which decorator he thinks I -- he should
14 use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators
15 and he was not very good with people. He was useless
16 at maintaining relationships with people who worked
17 for him, I'm not.
So anyways, I recommended -- I
18 think I recommended. I can't be a hundred percent
19 sure, because it's been a long time, but I think I
20 recommended Mark Zeff at that time.

21 TODD BLANCHE: Who?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mark Zeff --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I believe. And I
25 don't know why. I -- I don't remember. That's all
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1 lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his
2 mother had died now. I can't remember the timing of
3 all of that either.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I ended up in Palm
6 Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the
7 swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had
8 laid it all out over the house and various things,
9 and I think he'd asked for my opinion. That's my
10 memory of this.
11 It may also be that Ted and I were going
12 to Palm Beach
, because Ted had a golf match or
13 something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
14 It wasn't solely -- I don't -- maybe that's not true
15 either.
I don't know.
So I --

16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's a, you
18 know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was
19 there.
I don't know if that's part of that time --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead -- go ahead.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- or Ted went there
22 and left me. I don't know, something.
23 Anyway, I was there. No. That's not how
24 that went either. No
.
Anyway, at some point in that
25 time, I saw all the swatches, at some point in 2005,

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1 I think that was. And then I believe, or I don't
2 remember. I -- I think I got a phone call actually.
3 I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call
4 that there was a police at his house or something.
5 There was a --
6 TODD BLANCHE: And would you have gotten a
7 phone call from him or you think you were just told
8 by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't
9 -- or don't you remember?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely not him.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it would've
13 been the houseman.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So when that happens,
15 whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you
16 know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I didn't even
18 know what that -- I didn't even understand.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a
21 context for that.

22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was like, I didn't
24 even know -- I -- I didn't know.

25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So after --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't -- I
2 didn't -- I didn't -- I'm not sure even what I
3 thought. I was like, that's weird.

4 TODD BLANCHE: -- so after he -- after you
5 find out about it, what happens with your
6 relationship with him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I asked him. I asked
8 him what was going on --

9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and he said, I --
11 I -- not to worry. Nothing, nothing, taking care.
12 Don't worry about it (indiscernible) and then it all
13 went quiet. I didn't -- he didn't say, he didn't
14 share. I wasn't part of it at all. I was off with
15 Ted and I really just --

16 TODD BLANCHE: Did he tell you -- well,
17 why don't we come back to more specifics around that
18 time period in a few minutes --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- I want to just finish
21 this opening part.
22 So that case goes on, ultimately it ends.
23 What -- what -- what was your relationship like with
24 him during that case, when he goes, you know, when
25 he -- when he was sentenced.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked -- he -- he
2 -- he told me, he said, "Listen. I'm going to jail."
3 I was like, "Okay." And he goes, "I would like you
4 to stay on board to manage the properties, the
5 animals, this and that, and just stay put and I'll
6 continue to pay you. In case there's any emergency,
7 I don't trust anyone." And I was like, "Okay."
8 TODD BLANCHE: Well, when you said
9 continue to pay, had he con--- has he --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He had never stopped
11 paying me.
12 TODD BLANCHE: He never stopped paying
13 you. So even when your relationship changes, you're
14 getting -- does the amount increase from the $25,000
15 or so a year from the beginning? Like how much are
16 you getting paid yearly?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it ended -- at
18 the time, well, we had different payment structures
19 and I'm happy to explain how that was, but I think
20 salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a
21 quarter of a million a year.

22 TODD BLANCHE: How much?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Quarter of a million.
24 $250,000.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And when -- and when did it
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1 end? When was that that it stopped?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2008, or '09.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '09. When did he come
5 out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So, and over the
7 years, it increased from what you said was you
8 thought about $25,000 to $250,000. That's between
9 like '90, early '90s until 2009 or '10, whenever he
10 stopped; is that right?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes -- yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: And how were you paid?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: W2.
14 TODD BLANCHE: W2 from which -- from what
15 company? Or do you --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He, like I -- he just
17 moved me around over to this company, that, I didn't
18 care --
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I didn't care
21 and I didn't think that -- I didn't understand any
22 rhyme or reason, it doesn't, I just, you know,
23 whatever --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so maybe --

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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when he's going to go
2 to jail, he says, "Can you stay around and manage
3 everything."
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And do you do that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then -- and then
8 we'll come back to that.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not manage
10 everything, no. I mean there are other people at
11 this point. My specific role then was very, very
12 diminished.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I reviewed the bill
15 structure that came from the constructions, that were
16 still made, the island --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and wherever else I
19 was going
, Paris at this point, because I speak
20 French, I'm fluent in French.
21 And also my relationship with the French
22 decorator was critical to him. And in the French
23 component part of -- of that aspect, that was really
24 vital and so you would have had to find someone who
25 was -- well, actually, and the Spanish trilingual,
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1 you would've had to find someone who was trilingual
2 to -- and that he trusted --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to manage, not
5 steal from him.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so when he gets
7 out of jail, between that time 2009 or '10, and 2019,
8 what's your relationship like with -- with
9 Mr. Epstein?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Almost nonexistent.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Why?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I had just moved
13 on and I just didn't want to have anything to -- I
14 didn't want the drama. I didn't want to be
15 associated with ...
16 TODD BLANCHE: So do you recall -- when
17 you say "almost non-existent," does that mean --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It doesn't mean it --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it some phone calls,
20 some visits --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I definitely.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- some trips, or what does
23 it mean?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I -- I don't -- I
25 don't think there were any trips. Oh, I don't -- I

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1 don't think so.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Where were you living
3 during that time period? Or was it --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which time period?
5 TODD BLANCHE: Between 2009, '10 and 2019?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was back in
7 New York.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you had no -- so
9 when you -- so -- so your -- you had phone calls with
10 him on occasion?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Well, I
12 certainly did when it -- whenever there was any legal
13 drama or any like, serious press attention, I always
14 called him to try and find out what was going on.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. And then --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did email him at
17 that time for those types of details. It was like,
18 what do I do? What, I mean, I was like ...
19 TODD BLANCHE: And -- and then when he's
20 charged in New York federally --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- how did you learn about
23 that case?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the press.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And had you, as far as you

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1 know, been contacted by law enforcement before his
2 arrest?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wasn't in an
4 indictment.
5 TODD BLANCHE: No. I know that, but even
6 as a witness or -- or asking you if you would give
7 documents or materials?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had never -- up
9 until he -- up until when my lawyers said that, I
10 don't even know. I -- I had no knowledge of them
11 being interested in me, honestly. I don't -- I want
12 to say until he had died.
13 Now I know that my lawyers were in touch
14 with the Southern District of New York at some point
15 after his arrest. I'm pretty sure that had to have
16 happened, right --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I -- my
19 understanding is that they had not shown any
20 interest.
I know my lawyers went to see them once, I
21 believe, and --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Went to see him meaning
23 Mr. Epstein?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, them. So Southern
25 District of New York.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. The Southern
2 District of New York. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. And that they
4 had been in regular, in touch with him and --
5 TODD BLANCHE: But now you're talking
6 about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about
7 before he died?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, I --
9 TODD BLANCHE: If you can remember.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Easily verifiable. I
11 -- my memory is that they were in touch with him when
12 he was arrested.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if
15 anything happened until after his death, then after
16 that.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think they saw
19 them -- met with them, Southern District of New York
20 I'm talking about now, until after he died. I know
21 that they were in regular telephone contact with them
22 and that my lawyers believed that they had been told
23 that there was no interest in me --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and were absolutely

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1 stunned when I was arrested. But maybe stunned is
2 too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So let's -- okay.
4 So that's -- that's -- was a long description of --
5 of what was a very long life and that was very
6 helpful. So I want to go back and talk more
7 specifically now about particular areas, and, but
8 that was a -- a very helpful kind of foundation
9 for -- for us.
10 The first -- the first thing I want to
11 talk about, you talked about earlier on, about
12 Mr. Epstein's financial success. What -- you know,
13 do you know how he -- when you first meet him, at
14 some point you say, "I got this place for you to
15 rent, you can't afford it." And he laughs at you and
16 says, "Yes. I can."
17 What did you learn about his wealth and
18 how he was -- and how he accumulated his money?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can tell you what he
20 told me.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I know that he
23 was hired from working at a private school whose name
24 eludes me at this point.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Dalton.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Dalton. He was
2 working at Dalton, he was a math teacher. And he
3 met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure. He met
4 someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very
5 good at math. And I believe that he then worked on
6 creating a trading of, oh, my gosh.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Just describe it. It's
8 okay. Go ahead.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He came -- came up
10 with some new type of trading system. Not -- not a
11 system so much, but as a -- as a -- as a --as
12 vehicle. A trading vehicle.

13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just escaping
15 right now.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And this is while -- while
17 he was working at -- at Bear Stearns?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At Bear Stearns. Yes.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And, well --
21 TODD BLANCHE: And was this before you met
22 him?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So this is what he told
25 you.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: What you learned?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. This is what he
4 told me --

5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- himself.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- and then
8 eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know
9 that to be true or no? J. Epstein & Company. You
10 ever heard of that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's, yeah.
12 Yes. So hang on a minute. So I -- this I did not
13 know, but this I have subsequently learned --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is that he had some
16 problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was
17 some, I don't know, disagreement. He wasn't fired,
18 because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace
19 and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but
20 they were working with him and he ran -- he had cli-
21 -- money at Bear Stearns, and --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- his money, his
24 client's money. We'll -- I'll come to that.
25 But he started -- he told me himself that

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1 he started a business where he looked for stolen
2 money. So if somebody -- let's see. I'm trying to
3 think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't
4 think of anything, I've been with -- not great --
5 I'll -- I'll give it to you.
6 So let's say you have El Chapo, oh God, I
7 don't know where he comes from. But anyway, we've
8 got El Chapo. And El Chapo's laundering money or
9 still -- he's working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he
10 steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it
11 to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the
12 Sinaloa, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just
13 --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah -- yeah. I
15 understand.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just coming up with
17 something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to
18 Epstein, "Can you track down my billion dollars that,
19 the car- -- the other cartel stole from me?" And
20 Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will
21 take a portion of the money that was stolen at a fee
22 and give back the remainder. That would be on a
23 percentage basis.

24 TODD BLANCHE: No. But like what you just
25 described, which I appreciate what you said, a
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1 hypothetical --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the -- please,
3 that was completely hypothetical.
4 TODD BLANCHE: -- but that -- but that
5 would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels
6 stealing from each other.
7 Practically speaking, did -- he was a --
8 more of a businessman, correct?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So here's how I think
10 that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was
11 always you -- you -- always to the girls. I guess
12 there was a girl whose name will come back to me,
13 maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know,
14 maybe. There's a woman --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's always a
17 woman. And he -- she was the daughter of a
18 billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire,
19 whoever his --whatever his name was, had had some
20 money stolen. And for some reason this woman
21 introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how
22 that business started. That's what I remember.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And is that something he
24 told you about or something that happened while you
25 knew him?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Something he told
2 me before I met him.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you meet him
4 and -- and once you're part of his life in the early
5 to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you
6 see? He -- does he have clients? Does he have rich
7 clients? Does he have famous clients? And -- and
8 how -- and what -- if he does have clients, what
9 service is he providing them?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He does have -- well,
11 obviously there's the one very famous client that
12 everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. That was
13 a very important client to him. And he -- I think
14 it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine --
15 what I imagine, know -- would I know to be true about
16 what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that
17 I'll be improvising --
18 TODD BLANCHE: Yep
.

19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I want to just make
22 you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business
23 world, except tangentially and obviously.
So what
24 I'm talking about is I -- what I observed or what I
25 overheard or what I saw within the business, but I

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1 wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or
2 anything like that. So it's separate.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah. I understand.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: [b][size=115]So with Les, for
7 instance, it was really all encompassing.
It could
8 go from the structure of the business. So he
9 would -- he structured or restructured The Limited.
10 I know that, and I'll come back to that
11 because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was
12 in business meetings with them on the plane when they
13 were there.
So I could observe and I could hear some
14 of this.
15 And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly
16 business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to
17 be able to at least have some knowledge of what was
18 happening.

19 All right. So then he restructured the
20 business. He restructured his entire personal
21 finances, and would also handle all of the investment
22 strategy. I don't know if it was -- if it was a
23 hundred percent --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Wexner is what you're
25 saying?[/size][/b]
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Yes. All --
2 this is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
3 So let's say you had a billion dollars to
4 invest. So you would, you know, in people's normal
5 investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some
6 T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies
7 would be much more sophisticated than that.

8 TODD BLANCHE: And so just staying with
9 Mr. Wexner. Does -- from what you heard or saw, is
10 Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so --
11 so there would be a deal and he would be paid or
12 was -- did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
13 Was he a business partner? Like how did you
14 understand him to be paid?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was more a
16 la carte. So let's say this is a conversation I
17 actually -- Epstein told me. So all -- illustrated
18 for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would
19 take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He
20 wouldn't have $5 billion back, and he would take --
21 TODD BLANCHE: When you say you think
22 that, is that because you heard him talking about
23 that or you -- you ...
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It would be a
25 combination of both. He certainly told me that and I

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1 heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't --
2 sorry.
3 TODD BLANCHE: No -- no. Go ahead.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- was there -- did --
6 did he give -- did Mr. Wexner gift a property in
7 New York to Mr. Epstein?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we're talking about
9 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal
10 was, because, again, I'm not part of his business
11 thing, but I think what happened would be that, let's
12 say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services,
13 $100 million or whatever it was. He could have
14 traded that against the property.
15 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know that that
16 happened or that's -- are you -- are you kind of --
17 do you remember whether there was conversations about
18 that or are you just thinking that could be one way
19 that it happened?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure. And I'm
21 not trying to be -- I just don't remember if that's
22 something I know or if that's something that I
23 remember, or if it's something that I subsequently
24 know. I believe -- I believe that to be what
25 happened, but I don't want to tell you that I have --

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Wexner and
4 Mr. Epstein -- are you aware of they -- of their
5 falling out that they ultimately had?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- I wasn't
7 there and I don't know how it happened. I only know
8 what Les has said in the press.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So you only know about
10 their, you know, their falling out or whatever you
11 want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not
12 from any firsthand knowledge? You did -- you weren't
13 there, you weren't part of that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
16 Steven Hoffenberg?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Only from the press.

18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so you don't
19 know anything about whatever business relationship
20 they may have had, Mr. Epstein --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never spoke about him,
22 never mentioned it. I -- I only learned about that,
23 whatever that is, even -- I don't even know what the
24 truth is of that story, from the press.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How about Leon Black?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I did meet Leon.
2 I do know Leon.

3 TODD BLANCHE: When do you remember -- and
4 again, I know we're talking about a very long time
5 ago, but do you remember approximately when you met
6 him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I could have met Leon,
8 not really -- so I might have met him, nothing to do,
9 because Leon Black is very good friends with other
10 friends of mine.
I would've met him, when I say
11 socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein
12 became really good friends, I don't -- I'm not sure.
13 TODD BLANCHE: But not through you, as far
14 as you recall?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not through me as
16 far as I know. No. I -- in fact, I'm -- I'm sure
17 that's not through me.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know what kind of
19 work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the
20 years?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
22 for Wexner.

23 TODD BLANCHE: So we just talked about two
24 individuals. And again, I know we're talking about
25 a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:16 am

Part 3 of 6

1 How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein
2 have?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But why don't I just
4 give you the names that I remember and that's --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Why won't I just give
7 you the names.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Do you want the names?
10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. Go ahead.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Elizabeth Johnson --
12 Johnson & Johnson.

13 TODD BLANCHE: When did -- as far as you
14 know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson
15 and Mr. Epstein start?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '90s. '90 -- I
17 don't -- I -- '95, '96. '90s.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So during the time period?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. We're talking
20 '90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was
21 around.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And how did the
23 relationship start?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how he
25 became that friendly where he ended up managing her

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1 money, I wasn't there. I mean, he -- I really had a
2 separate life. We really had separate lives --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- except where they
5 synced.

6 TODD BLANCHE: But it wasn't from --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It wasn't from me.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- from you?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. It was not.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what's your
11 understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for
12 Ms. Johnson?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
14 for Wexner.
And when I -- and you have to
15 understand, it -- it went down to, in tiny details.
16 So I remember this -- I remember, this is an actual
17 memory, that he would make the contracts for the
18 maids, for the people who worked in their homes.

19 TODD BLANCHE: So he would assist his
20 clients, at times, with -- you're saying with even
21 small things like contractual relations with --
22 with --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He said no detail was
24 too small, because everything that affected how they
25 lived and how they managed their life, was something

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1 that he felt he was -- if they want, he would be
2 responsible for, to make sure that the contract -- so
3 that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn't come
4 back and sue you or if that -- that sort of ...
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So Mr. Black,
6 Mr. Werner [sic] -- Ms. Johnson. Who else?

7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the name of the
8 woman from Ohio (inaudible).
9 TODD BLANCHE: Know someone named
10 Jes Staley.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I do know Jes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was at Morgan
14 Stanley and at Barclays.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What do -- do you know
16 whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not a -- not a
18 physical one.

19 TODD BLANCHE: Well --
20 DAVID MARKUS: Business one.
21 TODD BLANCHE: -- I didn't suggest.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just --
23 TODD BLANCHE: No. I'm saying a -- a
24 relationship in the broadest sense of word; business,
25 personal --

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- both. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Both.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And do you know when
5 they met?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- no. I don't
7 know when they met.
But you can time it. Well, I
8 don't know that you can. No. I don't know.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So, but what was the nature
10 of their relationship, as far as you know?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think they were
12 friends and I think that they were business partners.
13 Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were --
14 they did business together.

15 TODD BLANCHE: So did you -- again, I want
16 to stay focused on the time where you were the most
17 involved in his life, so --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The '90s.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- the early '90s through
20 early 2000s.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the beginning --
22 beginning of the 2000s, yes.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you -- so we
24 talked about four people, so --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There's more.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- were there more? Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. There were
3 more. There was a lady whose name I just can't --
4 can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: (Indiscernible)
7 Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
8 TODD BLANCHE: What book are you using?
9 What is that?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wrote some notes for
11 the meeting.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Great. Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is that alright?
14 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's fine. I just
15 was curious what -- what we're looking at.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Not the birthday book.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not the birthday
19 book. No. We are going to come to that, I'm sure.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. I wrote
22 down some names because I tried to make -- I just
23 want you to understand my -- my memory's not as good
24 as it was, because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in
25 the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide

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1 watch for almost two years, which meant that they
2 woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And
3 it's -- it really did affect my ability to ...

4 TODD BLANCHE: Understand.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.

6 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I'm not --
8 TODD BLANCHE: So you've taken some notes
9 in anticipation --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just made some names
11 in -- in advance for this --
12 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So go ahead.
13 So --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're happy to
15 look at them as well, if you want.
16 TODD BLANCHE: No. Go -- go ahead.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Oh, well, funny
18 you say, first two names. One is Wexner, two is
19 Staley, three is Leon Black.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Glenn Dubin was a
22 client.

23 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Eva Dubin's husband.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What was their, I

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1 mean, if you can -- do you know when -- about when
2 that relationship started?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Whenever -- well,
4 wouldn't have been before they got married
, for sure.
5 So if you're going to start -- you're going to date
6 that from wherever that was.
7 And then Epstein was heavily involved with
8 Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of
9 Highbridge to JP Morgan.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
11 Eva Dubin. Yep.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. You're only
13 looking for clients, so, all right.
There's a
14 woman -- well he -- there's a woman in Ohio.
I just
15 can't think of her name, but it will -- I tried to
16 remember it yesterday and I can't.
17 DAVID MARKUS: So this is a good thing.
18 Like, you know, as you think of things, write it
19 down, and if they have any other names, they'll ask
20 you. But you --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Just --
23 DAVID MARKUS: -- don't -- don't force it
24 out. So -- so you'll have time to think about this,
25 especially today, this afternoon, overnight --

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
2 DAVID MARKUS: -- because we'll probably
3 meet tomorrow.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But you can find them.
5 I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So the woman in Ohio who's
7 wealthy, that you worked with.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And well, you can
9 identify her yourself because she had the largest
10 Klein painting. That was huge. So you can find her,
11 because it'll be in a museum.

Image

Yves Klein (French, 1928-1962), Large Blue Anthropometry (ANT 105) [La Grande Anthropométrie Bleue (ANT 105)], c. 1960, Blue pigment and synthetic resin on paper on canvas, 280 x 428cm [9' 2.24" x 14' 0.48"], Guggenheim Museum Bilbao

-- Exhibition: ‘Art of Another Kind: International Abstraction and the Guggenheim, 1949-1960’ at the Guggenheim Museum, New York, Dr Marcus Bunyan, September 8, 2012

Billionaire Woman in Ohio Owns Yves Klein Art

The artwork "Large Blue Anthropometry (ANT 105)" by Yves Klein is part of the collection of the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao and has been housed there since at least 2005. There is no information indicating that this specific artwork was owned by a billionaire woman in Ohio in 2019 or at any other time. The painting has not been reported to be in private hands, particularly in Ohio, and its ownership remains with the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao. Therefore, the premise of the query is incorrect.

-- Billionaire Woman in Ohio Owns Yves Klein Art, by Google AI

Image
Anthropométrie sans titre (1961) by Yves Klein. Photograph: Yves Klein, ADAGP, Paris/DACS, London.

Image
Klein, Yves: Portrait-Relief of Claude Pascal, Arman, and Martial Raysse, pure pigment, synthetic resin, and gilded bronze panel sculptures by Yves Klein, 1962; in the collection of the Musée d'Art Moderne et d'Art Contemporain (MAMAC), Nice, France.

Image
The Blue Epoch, by Yves Klein, IKB 191, 1962

Image
Le Vide (The Void) displayed at the Iris Clert Gallery

Image
Le Saut dans le vide (Leap into the Void); photomontage by Shunk-Kender (Harry Shunk and Janos Kender) of a performance by Klein at Rue Gentil-Bernard, Fontenay-aux-Roses, October 1960

-- Nihilism, by Alan Pratt, Ph.D.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that's her.
14 TODD BLANCHE: And so he -- that was one
15 of Mr. Epstein's clients?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: She was one of
18 Mr. client -- Mr. Epstein's clients as well?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Who else?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I think that
22 there was people, other people that he would, like,
23 assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who
24 became Lynn de Rothschild.
She'll deny it and she
25 has, but she -- she can't.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say "help,"
2 the same help in business or what help?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so-- so -- I
4 have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped
5 her financially. Her husband was the controller of
6 New York. So, but I don't -- again, I'm not inside
7 his business, but he would've -- his -- his -- this
8 notion that he black -- blackmailed men or we don't
9 really have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman
10 and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or
11 what -- I don't believe that to be true.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Why?

13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry?
14 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- so you say
15 you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you
16 think that.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Just from -- I know you've
19 been talking about it, that he was very -- he was
20 very conscientious. He was very good at math. He
21 was -- took, paid a lot of attention to his clients,
22 but -- but yes. You're right. There's allegations
23 of -- of blackmail or also that -- that there was
24 some level of -- of fraud involved in what he did,
25 and you don't believe it. Why do you -- why do you
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1 say that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I -- let me
3 rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it.
4 What I saw or what I felt when I -- his -- I ran that
5 office. I mean, ran. I didn't -- I was responsible
6 for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers,
7 there were accountants. I never heard him -- I never
8 -- wit- -- I never felt anything, I don't know, icky.

9 DAVID MARKUS: Did -- did you ever see him
10 blackmail a --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
12 DAVID MARKUS: -- a client?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
14 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see him
15 blackmail a -- an -- a friend or an acquaintance?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.

18 TODD BLANCHE: Well, so I think when folks
19 talk about block -- blackmail, and we can talk about
20 -- sorry about that.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
22 TODD BLANCHE: We can talk about that now.
23 There are a lot of allegations about him, which
24 we'll -- which we should talk about and we can do
25 that now. And the fact that he abused young women.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Full stop. Okay. Which
3 means, the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been
4 widely reported, is that -- that he would cause young
5 women in high school to be recruited to come to his
6 house and give him massages. And a part of -- and
7 the -- and the -- and as part of that, he would
8 sexually abuse them, okay?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to talk about
11 that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question
12 is whether you're aware of any time, that any of the
13 individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about
14 others, received massages from women who were under
15 18 or may have been under 18.
16 And that whether there was any sexual
17 assaults or sexual contact between any of these
18 people and those masseuses, which would've allowed
19 then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and
20 say, "You have to continue to work with me or you
21 have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the
22 world that -- that -- that you did this."

23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I -- I think
24 this is a really good place to start with how this
25 story began.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So even, let's assume
3 that that premise is correct, that he was doing that
4 and he was going to tell everybody, going to say,
5 "oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with
6 an underage girl." If you don't have a video or
7 photograph, photographic evidence, because I -- I'm
8 not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well,
9 maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take
10 that seriously.
11 So you have to have something to say,
12 "Hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you
13 doing terrible things and you need to." So I built
14 those houses, many of them. I decorated those
15 houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I
16 never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any
17 type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance.
18 And I'll define that for you.
19 Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom,
20 in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
21 TODD BLANCHE: In a room where there were
22 massages given?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Inappropriate. I
24 would say I would define "appropriate" surveillance
25 to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as

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1 in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else
2 would be grotesque.

3 TODD BLANCHE: So I just want to come back
4 to -- I know I'm just hopefully stating the obvious,
5 but when you say "the houses," you're talking about
6 his New York --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- brownstone?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the
11 island in -- in the Caribbean?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: You're talking about the
14 residence in Palm Beach?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And you're talking about
17 the ranch in New Mexico?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Anywhere else?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Paris.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And in Paris. And so --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the plane. I saw
23 some ridiculous thing with the plane --

24 TODD BLANCHE: And the plane. Okay.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that was what we're
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1 doing. Yes. I didn't --
2 TODD BLANCHE: So --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't hire any
4 electrician on the plane. Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- so unequivocally,
6 unequivocally from what you know, and you only know
7 what you know --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I only know what I
9 know.
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- but from what you know,
11 you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera
12 or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his
13 residences?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So even the appropriate
16 cameras that you just talked about, which would be
17 kind of exterior security cameras, did you know
18 whether there was any cameras, that you're aware of,
19 inside any of the locations?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never, with one
21 exception.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What's the
23 exception?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The exception is
25 Palm Beach.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason -- so
3 in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He
4 noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase,
5 call it his briefcase. And he called in the
6 Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police
7 installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Where was that? Do you
9 remember?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At his desk in -- so
11 the house on the ground floor was -- he had a desk,
12 sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think
13 there was another camera. I think there were two or
14 maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground
15 floor, wherever he may have had -- maybe he had
16 another office in the cabana. There may have been a
17 camera there.

18 TODD BLANCHE: When was this? I'm not
19 looking for an exact date, but what time period are
20 you thinking about when you say this?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2003. I think I can
22 date it for you precisely, actually, 2003. I'm
23 pretty firm on that date.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can be firm
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The Franklin Scandal and the Epstein scandal are quite similar in the sense that both child trafficking networks were covered up by state and federal authorities and the mainstream media has been complicit, because it never demanded justice for the children whose lives had been disfigured. I started investigating the Epstein network in 2012, when I acquired his "Little Black Book"—seven years before the case broke nationally. I pitched an article on the Little Black Book for three years to mainstream media outlets, but, like The Franklin Scandal, my pitches were met with unbridled skepticism and incredulity. In 2015, finally, Gawker published the Little Black Book and accompanying articles. I found it ironic that Gawker, considered to be the mean kids in the media, had the fortitude to publish a story about children whose lives have been disfigured with impunity, whereas media outlets ostensibly immersed in integrity had rejected the story.

-- About Me, by Nick Bryant, nickbryantnyc.com
EpsteinJustice.com, by Nick Bryant, epsteinjustice.com

1 because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end
2 of 2002 and he was the thief.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So aside from law
4 enforcement installing a camera, to try to catch
5 somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not
6 aware of any cameras at the island -- no. Sorry.

7 You're -- just so we record it because ...
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry -- sorry --
9 sorry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: No. That's okay. You were
11 nodding your head no.
12 So what about --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No cameras anywhere,
14 outside of, possibly, things that would -- I would
15 consider -- myself, I would consider normal. So the
16 garage gate, something like that, a front door.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Outside, like security
18 cameras?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Security cameras.
20 TODD BLANCHE: No. I -- I --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there were cameras
22 inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the
23 physical plant, because it was a commercial building.

24 So you had the whole -- that's a real thing there.
25 It's a commercial building.

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1 And there were -- there was one camera on
2 the -- on the front door, internal, from the internal
3 that did the front door, as I recall. But I -- there
4 were no other cameras inside the house.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- how about
6 photographs. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or
7 anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in
8 compromising positions with women or with -- or with
9 anybody?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.

pg. 208, "Girlfriends" section, Request No. 1 pdf, Oversight Committee https://rapeutation.com/epsteinmaxwelldocsfamily1a.pdf. Picture of half naked girl looking through closet:
"Visiting you down in Palm Beach ... can't get a second of privacy with you and a camera around Ha! Ha!"

11 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear, when you
12 were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was
13 having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of
14 blackmailing them or of trying to extort them,
15 because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.

17 TODD BLANCHE: There have been -- and --
18 and you -- you -- in the discovery you got in the
19 New York case, okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And in the civil cases that
22 you've been part of --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- associated with
25 Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been
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1 told that video exists, like what we're talking
2 about, or photos were taken that -- that were
3 compromising?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in the -- in both
5 of those, I never received no pictures or anything
6 from the civil case.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But in the criminal
9 case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women
10 and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw
11 binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible). I
12 never saw any, well, I don't know -- I don't know how
13 old some of these women were. There were definitely
14 some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs
15 of them in -- in -- without clothing.

16 TODD BLANCHE: And in that -- in those
17 photographs, were -- the victims that were
18 photographed, were there any of the people you've
19 talked about? Like, were there men with the victims
20 or were they just photographs of the victims?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There was no men with
22 these pictures. There was no client of his with
23 those pictures. They would be standalone, for want
24 of a better word, like modeling shots.
If you
25 were -- if you -- if you were, I don't know.

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1 DAVID MARKUS: Pictures that Epstein had
2 with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and
3 the girls.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct
.

5 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- I understand you
6 said you got those in the discovery. Did you know
7 those -- those pictures -- pictures like that
8 existed?
9 So right now I'm talking about photographs
10 of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein
11 had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you
12 know that those photos existed before you got them in
13 discovery?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some of them,
15 absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of
16 these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or
17 whatever.

18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some pictures I've
20 simply never seen before. I mean, there was -- I --
21 I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had,
22 some of them I hadn't, I mean.

23 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so -- so you're
24 right, and I -- I accept that having video or
25 photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a
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1 compromising position, would be good blackmail.
2 But -- so separate -- putting aside what
3 you've said about the fact that you don't know of any
4 existence of those, did you observe, over the years,
5 the folks we're talking about, or others which we can
6 talk about, getting massages from young women?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- I just -- I
8 think it's really helpful to understand a few things
9 that has been missed in this whole mishigas. [craziness, silliness, tomfoolery, or nonsense]

10 DAVID MARKUS: That's a technical term.
11 TODD BLANCHE: I'll look it up later.
12 Go ahead.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought about this
14 obviously a lot and I've given it --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- some -- so this is
17 the benefit of -- some benefit of what I saw and some
18 benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's
19 sake.
20 I think -- I just want to say for the
21 record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of,
22 not all, but some of what he's accused of
. And I'm
23 not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I
24 don't want to, and I don't think he requires, nor
25 deserves any type of protection or -- from me in any

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1 way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So
2 there's that.
3 However, the man I met and the man he
4 became, I believe that there is a progression, and I
5 don't think that the man I met is the man that he
6 became. I believe he became that man over a period
7 of time.

8 Now we can discuss anything you want and
9 I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody
10 who has an interest, however you define that, in
11 underage people is obviously someone who is unwell.
12 But I don't think that you wake up one day and you
13 start doing what he's accused of. I think this is
14 something that you develop or you progress to
.
I --
15 I think, because --

...

The Khashoggi/Epstein Connection and the COG in the Canary Islands

Who was Adnan Khashoggi’s financial manager? Jeffrey Epstein. All through the seventies and eighties, Epstein managed all of Khashoggi’s wealth. Like Epstein, Khashoggi had private planes, and during the seventies and eighties Khashoggi had a base of operations in the Canary Islands. Guess who else was there? Well, thanks to pedophilia not being unlawful in the Canary Islands back in the seventies, Mo had moved the COG base to the island of Tenerife in the Canaries.

A Review of the Evidence

So what have we here in the way of evidence? Mo set up the COG to engage in the white slave traffic, and sold sex with Breeze and Miriam to Arab men for exhorbitant rates. Turning young, lily white females into houris with stars in their eyes for the “Kings” they are introducing to God’s Love, sacrificing their bodies in a Christlike fashion. No wonder Salim and Adnan enjoyed their services. Sleeping with the Bride of Christ is probably more exciting even than the vaunted “girlfriend experience” offered by high end escorts. I mean, how can you erase the knowledge that “I’m paying for this?” You’re not going to get much closer than hearing a hired lover to say, “Consider me God’s gift to you for being who you are.” So Mo had a quality product to offer, and as everyone who knows the whole COG story will tell you, because contraception doesn’t figure into this story, that an endless flow of children was generated by Flirty Fishing. Were some of those children trafficked in international sex networks? Quite possibly.

Possible Use of Kompromat by Trump to Silence Opposition

Khashoggi and Epstein certainly spent a lot of time together, and they shared interests beyond making money from money. Khashoggi worked with the Mossad at high levels, dealing arms to and for Israel, keeping the balance of terror at the level acceptable to Israel by controlling weapons supplies. It is understood that Epstein ran a vast network to generate lethal, nuclear-level kompromat on elites who fell into his sexual honeypot, because his residences were all stuffed with surveillance cameras and microphones, and large caches of digital media were seized from his homes and offices during Trump’s first term in office. The Trump era brought total capitulation among Republicans who had run and spoken against him back in 2016. Lindsey Graham is the poster child for conversion from harsh critic to slavish bum-licker, but Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and a long list of others have also delivered their testicles to Trump for safekeeping. Why? Kompromat could be the answer in many cases. Indiscretions are so hard to avoid in DC, and that moment when one accepts an opportunity to engage in illicit sex, not thinking beyond the moment, is of course shortly followed by endless terror of the consequences. There doesn’t even have to be a video. The blackmailer just makes the call, “Senator, remember that night in the mile high club?” And the fix is in. Who could resist acquiring that kind of leverage? Not Epstein. Not Trump.

I Find Grounds for Further Investigation

So, what have we learned from our tour of high places and low deeds? I think the possible use of COG sex slaves by the Epstein sex trafficking network should be investigated. We have Khashoggi buying sex from Mo. We have Khashoggi and Mo both having HQ in the Canary Islands. Epstein was Khashoggi’s “financial manager,” and is believed to have run his blackmail operation for the Mossad, with whom Khashoggi also worked. Epstein also traveled about the world on a Saudi passport under a false name. Undoubtedly this was obtained with Khashoggi’s assistance so he could travel incognito. The intelligence gathering side of Epstein’s operation must have been of interest to Khashoggi, because Epstein had an uncanny ability to snag military contracts despite having no military background. Perhaps because kompromat works when nothing else does.

Epilogue – the Victims Are Everywhere

So that’s a wrap on what I know about COG, Khashoggi and Epstein, Mo and pedophiles in the Canaries. I haven’t gotten into just how lurid Mo’s pedophile cult was, but suffice it to say that among Mo’s least successful religious experiments was the raising of Davidito, the son of Karen Zerby and a gentleman from the Canary Islands, that Mo decreed would be a world savior, and accordingly raised him in orgiastic conditions from infancy. He had multiple nurses who worked with exposed breasts, and was introduced to orgasm through diligent masturbation in the cradle. He ended his own life with a pistol shot in a parking lot in Blythe, California, less than a day after stabbing one of his childhood nurses to death. Read up on it and a plethora of other tragedies at Exfamily.org.

-- Epstein, Khashoggi, and The Children of God Pedophile Cult, by Charles Carreon, Jul 27, 2025


16 DAVID MARKUS: Ghislaine, before -- before
17 you get into all that, let's answer the top line
18 question and then get into it.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The top line
20 question is?
21 DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see any of
22 these people with underage women?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No -- no. I -- so the
24 reason I'm saying that is not -- is not to avoid that
25 question, but it's because by the time, when you were

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1 talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there.
2 I -- there's that description. I think that this,
3 what you were talking about is a later version.

4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- is that?
6 TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and
7 I do want to talk -- I'm not --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it's just I'm -- I
9 think you need to separate the periods of time --

10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it --
12 this -- one of the things that was definitely missing
13 in my trial, and definitely missing from the
14 narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened
15 and he was always but -- no. I don't -- I don't
16 believe that to be true.
17 TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that --
18 that's -- that's fine. And I do want to talk about
19 that. I'm not -- I'm not pushing that away. I'm
20 just putting it aside for a moment.
21 What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly,
22 what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one
23 thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what --
24 right now what I want to understand is -- is whether
25 one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his

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1 clients or -- or took care of them, or some would say
2 blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to
3 interact with -- with women, underage or not.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the
5 '90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were
6 people who were in their 20s or 30s.

7 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so. Understand that.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have -- so he
9 would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and
10 female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been
11 discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were
12 men as well as women.

13 And so if he would travel, and I can show
14 them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record,
15 so you could see that there really were men that were
16 also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga
17 with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this
18 one? But they would be in their late 20s and
19 professional masseuses.

20 TODD BLANCHE: So --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there's a
22 distinction.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about
24 actual individuals here. But -- and I understand the
25 distinction between somebody who's an adult and --
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1 and -- and someone who's underage.
2 But even with somebody who's an adult, did
3 you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that,
4 whether it's a client or somebody else?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a -- with a --
6 I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying
7 with him and you had a massage that -- he would often
8 travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you
9 like a massage? And he did do that, yes.

10 TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or
11 anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards,
12 to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual
13 contact?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So meaning -- and then
16 coming back to the blackmail issue.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah.
18 TODD BLANCHE: There's nothing wrong with
19 getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you
20 know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a
21 masseuse. There's -- I'm not quibbling with that.

22 But my question is that there's a lot of
23 accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell,
24 I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was
25 through this idea of blackmail.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never --
2 TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young -- young
3 women and -- and is a crime. Children are -- is a
4 crime.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age
7 of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or
8 whomever to get massages and have inappropriate
9 sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a
10 separate issue. Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but
11 did you ever know him to do that?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did
13 absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I
14 never -- I never heard that. I never -- no one -- in
15 the entire time I was with him or friends with him,
16 or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to
17 me and said that anything inappropriate happened or
18 was upset by -- I never saw a tear. I never saw ever
19 any of that.

20 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, "No one
21 reported to me," meaning like the masseuses --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
23 TODD BLANCHE: -- or any of the house
24 staff --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.

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1 DAVID MARKUS: Or the clients.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- or the clients
3 themselves?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so let's --
6 again, I want to stay -- and -- and coming back now
7 to what you were talking about a moment ago with
8 Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or -- or -- or
9 getting worse. So just staying within the '90s.
10 What role -- what did -- what role did you
11 have or what did you observe -- which are two
12 different issues, but both important -- with respect
13 to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess,
14 Palm Beach or to travel, or eventually New Mexico.
15 What role did you have in that?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me to find
17 masseuses for him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me if I could
20 find him masseuses.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Like, as part of --
22 like you said, you were his general manager. As part
23 of all your -- your duties, that was one of them?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did do that. So
25 the first person I believe that I introduced him to

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1 as a masseuse was somebody called [DOJ REDACTION]. She
2 was, I don't know, mid, late 20s. Professional
3 masseuse.

4 TODD BLANCHE: And was this something that
5 happened early on in your relationship or -- and
6 again, I know we're talking about the '90s, but are
7 we talking about early '90s or is this later on?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in terms of
9 massage, I am a -- I have a lot of injuries. I do a
10 lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious
11 accidents, and walk without any lameness, because of
12 physical therapy and massage. I've -- that to me is
13 a very -- it's medicinal for me.
14 So Epstein, whatever his massage
15 situation, whatever -- he loved massage. And if I
16 met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or
17 masseur, I introduced them.
18 And he -- because I got them, and he asked
19 me if I did, and I said yes. And that's -- I'm
20 pretty sure that would've -- well, I don't remember.
21 '93, '92, from the beginning.

22 TODD BLANCHE: So -- so go ahead. So then
23 what happens over the next, you know, like there's
24 been -- there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I
25 guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting,

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1 about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort
2 that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and
3 others, to try to find more and more masseuses.
4 What -- is that -- is that true, and what
5 role did you have in that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was partially
7 true.

8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it is true that I
10 found masseuses and he became more insistent. He --
11 he -- he liked new all the time. He got bored. So
12 he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say,
13 find me a new masseuse.

14 I am the entire opposite. If I find
15 someone that I like, I stay with them. I'm like, I
16 don't want new. He would drive for new. So that is
17 true.
18 And in my effort to find them, I would go
19 to massage spas, like legitimate spas. Not -- we're
20 not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.
21 So -- and I -- if I got a massage from
22 somebody in a spa, that was -- I liked -- I liked, I
23 asked them if they would do home visits. If they
24 said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and
25 he would see if he liked them or not. But these were

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1 people who worked in spas. I never, ever checked
2 their age and I never checked their credentials. I
3 never asked for a certificate.

4 TODD BLANCHE: What --
5 DAVID MARKUS: But just to be clear, you
6 never thought anybody was under 18?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never crossed -- I
8 never -- no. That was never my -- that was never a
9 drive.

10 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what did you know
11 at the time about him, Mr. Epstein, requiring
12 masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to
13 either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be
14 there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that.

15 And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year
16 period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate,
17 it's a very broad question. So answer it in a way
18 that, you know, addresses what you've been charged
19 with doing, but also what's been said about you.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I don't --
21 the '90s, I don't think that I ever thought -- that
22 never would cross my mind. I'm not sure that I
23 thought about that in those contexts at all, until
24 his arrest and those papers came out.
But I believe
25 the -- the subject of the -- the question that you're

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1 asking me, I believe started in the 2000s.
2 TODD BLANCHE: In the 2000 time period?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 2000.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you -- why do you
5 think --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2000.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Like what -- what in your
8 mind makes you think that that's the time that it
9 started?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think because in
11 December of 2001, he met [DOJ REDACTION] [VIRGINIA GIUFFRE] And I
12 think [DOJ REDACTION] [VIRGINIA GIUFFRE] was responsible for that in
13 its entirety.
14 And the reason I believe that, so this --
15 she -- she was a self-confessed having been sexually
16 abused as a young girl, and was trained -- her words
17 I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of
18 whatever that is, the sex program by a man called Ron
19 Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I
20 believe, or 15, I don't know.
21 And in her book describes him training her
22 to be what every man wants in all its manners,
23 fellatio and everything else. I believe that then
24 what happened was that he met her, and she came as a
25 masseuse to his house, in December of 2001 is when I

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1 think it started.
2 Now, what their relationship was or what
3 happened with them in that early period of time, I
4 cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and
5 she started to travel with him at that time period.
6 I believe -- I know, then, what happened
7 was that she -- when she first started to see him or
8 first came into his orbit as his masseuse or
9 whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing
10 an engagement ring, and was living with her fianc?.
11 She broke up after a few months, with her
12 fianc?, and took up with the local drug dealer. So
13 let's say after four or five months of -- in the time
14 period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say we're
15 now May, June of 2002 or is it 2000. I can't
16 remember.
17 From whenever she hits the -- whatever
18 that is if that's 2000. I think it's 2000. I'm
19 sorry. I think it's when she met him. December of
20 2000. So -- so then you go through -- I don't
21 remember. You'll have to look.

Early life

Virginia Giuffre was born Virginia Louise Roberts in Sacramento, California, on August 9, 1983, to Sky William Roberts and Lynn Trude Cabell. She had two stepbrothers, Sky and Daniel. The family relocated to Loxahatchee in Palm Beach County, Florida, when she was four years old. It was reported that she had come from a "troubled home" and, from the age of seven, was molested by a close family friend. "I was just so mentally scarred already at such a young age, and I ran away from that", she said on Panorama in 2019. Giuffre told the Miami Herald that she went from being in "an abusive situation, to being a runaway, to living in foster homes". She lived on the streets at age 14, where she says she found only "hunger and pain and [more] abuse". Later she was abused by a sex trafficker, Ron Eppinger, in Miami. Giuffre lived with Eppinger for approximately 6 months.Eppinger reportedly ran a front business for international sex trafficking known as the modeling agency "Perfect 10". He was raided by the FBI and later pleaded guilty to charges of alien smuggling for prostitution, interstate travel for prostitution, and money laundering.

At the age of 14, Giuffre reunited with her father and returned to live with him. Her father worked as a maintenance manager at the Mar-a-Lago property owned by Donald Trump, and also helped Giuffre obtain a job there.[13] She attended Royal Palm Beach High School.


-- Virginia Giuffre, by Wikipedia

22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I'm not holding you
23 to exact dates. I'm not --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, I'm just
25 trying to -- I'm giving the --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: -- I appreciate.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So then I think -- so
3 she -- she takes up with the local drug dealer and
4 she becomes druggie, druggie. Like, you know, how
5 druggies -- well, maybe you don't. I live with a lot
6 in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable
7 than normal.
8 And at some point, she's now working
9 somewhere else. He stopped seeing her, because he
10 doesn't like people who do drugs. And I think that
11 not seeing her lasted five or six months. And in
12 that period of time, she got arrested for theft, and
13 she had a warrant out for her arrest.
14 Now, this I've pieced together because
15 this piece I didn't know. She then called Epstein
16 to -- to have help avoiding the warrant for her
17 arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage
18 therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This
19 is the bit that I extrapolated.
20 In the period of time from when she came
21 back to when she left, he asked her to replace
22 herself as his masseuse or whatever -- whatever she
23 was doing, and she brought the first replacement for
24 her. That would've been one of the accusers in my
25 case, I think, would've been [DOJ REDACTION.]

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1 And that -- and then everyone who came
2 subsequent to [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] or simultaneously, if she
3 wasn't the first, I don't know. Everyone -- every
4 single person who came to his house, came through
5 [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever
6 else underneath her. And that is how it started.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So before her --
8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Tony Figueroa.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Tony Figueroa is her
10 boyfriend.

11 TODD BLANCHE: Before her -- so now going
12 back in the '90s. You don't believe that Mr. Epstein
13 was abusing masseuses?
14 DAVID MARKUS: Underage?
15 TODD BLANCHE: Or over age? I mean, I
16 think -- well, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense
17 of word, because I'm assuming that you -- you --
18 you -- you -- you -- you said that you have no idea
19 of the year -- you-- you always assumed the masseuses
20 were over age, right?

21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So when I'm talking about
23 abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who
24 comes in to give a massage and is told to take off
25 their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if

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1 they don't take off their clothes. Basically
2 suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the
3 things that have been publicly said about what he
4 did.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not --

6 TODD BLANCHE: For now I'm not -- I'm not
7 distinguishing adults or -- or -- or young or
8 underage women for that. I'm saying abuse.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm -- I'm going to
10 think that that would've been a habit.

11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to say that
13 the massage game was a habit. And I think --
14 DAVID MARKUS: What does that mean?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That means that I'm
16 sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations
17 with masseuses in 2002.
18 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am sure he must have
20 had relations with masseuses, who knows when.
21 TODD BLANCHE: But you're saying, as far
22 as you -- I -- I used the word abuse. You're saying
23 that as far as you sit here today, you would describe
24 that more as consensual? Meaning the masseuse did
25 those -- did this willingly?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I saw him with
2 lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse
3 ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So
4 based on my observation, I don't think that if you
5 are being raped, as now he's like this prolific -- I
6 just -- I just can't imagine why you would return.

7 TODD BLANCHE: That's not what you
8 observed at the time?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not what I observed at
10 the time, no.
11 TODD BLANCHE: I want to -- we're -- we're
12 going to spend a little -- we're going to spend more
13 time on this issue, because I -- I think it's
14 important. But just going back to kind of the -- the
15 question that I started with in this area, which is
16 that it ties into the blackmail issue.
17 So we talked about people that were his
18 clients, and you've mentioned President Clinton, and
19 then early on --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I never said he
21 was a client.
22 TODD BLANCHE: I -- I did not say you
23 said. I'm saying when you talk about his clients.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay. Right.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And puts his clients
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1 off the side.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And then you mentioned some
4 other people. You mentioned President Clinton --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- you mentioned President
7 Trump
early on.
8 Who were other famous/politicians, who
9 were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during
10 that time period? So the early '90s --

11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was the '90s.
12 Let's -- should we just --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Congressman
15 McMillen.

16 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: McMillen.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky, who
20 was the provost of Harvard.
Hang on (Indiscernible).
21 TODD BLANCHE: Sure. You're looking at
22 your -- your -- your notes.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go ahead.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Joe Pagano, Jerry
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1 Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson.
2 I don't know if in the '90s Tom Pritzker,
3 Ace, Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were --
4 TODD BLANCHE: What about the royal
5 family?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. He didn't know
7 them in the '90s.

8 TODD BLANCHE: What about the -- the --
9 what about Prince Andrew?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Didn't know him in the
11 '90s.
12 TODD BLANCHE: When did --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well -- is that
14 right?
15 TODD BLANCHE: I wouldn't know. I do not
16 know. So I don't want you to have -- to worry about
17 exact dates. You're -- you're not positive about
18 that. But you don't have a specific recollection of
19 that being in the '90s?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I can -- I can
23 date it for you, I think, but I can't give you --
24 TODD BLANCHE: That's okay. I think
25 that's fine.

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1 So with respect to just -- and we'll --
2 we'll take a break in a minute to get some food. But
3 just with respect to Mr. -- with respect to the
4 individuals you just talked about. So again, focus
5 on the '90s.
6 And so the people that I'm talking about
7 right now, and we might add some names later. So
8 we're talking about the -- the clients that he worked
9 with, which you've mentioned several of.
And I know
10 that that wasn't exhaustive, but you mentioned
11 several of them.
12 And then the -- the kind of what -- what I
13 called famous friends, but the -- the prominent
14 individuals that were in his life in the '90s.
All of them.
15 Did -- did -- does any stick out in your mind as
16 having received massages?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky
18 received a massage.

19 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you -- why does
20 that stick out in your memory?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I saw him in a
22 bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a
23 massage, he told me.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:17 am

Part 4 of 6

24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
25 that -- whether there was any -- whether the masseuse

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1 was naked during that massage?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't have any
3 idea.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
6 like in his 80s.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
9 like in his 80s.

My husband is 76. His upper body strength is failing and he cannot even hold himself up to complete the act. But he is absolutely consumed with the desire to have sex, sometimes several times a day. He often can’t complete the act, but still wants to lie in bed and fool around for hours at a time. I’m 71 and have pretty well lost interest in sex. Mostly feels like a boring waste of time. It’s beginning to be a pretty daunting challenge to try to live life without managing it around sex attempts every few hours (often because he doesn’t remember we just had sex). If I knew he wouldn’t remember, I’d “just say no”. But when I do that, it sends him into tirades of worry, anxiety, and ridiculous accusations of infidelity. It ends up being easier to just “close my eyes and think of England”, but that too wears thin after an hour or so. HELP!! I’m going nuts AND feeling like a bad wife for even writing this. He wants nothing BUT me naked and available all the time. I’ve even been considering hiring prostitutes for him. You can tell, I’m losing my perspective. HOPE you have some thoughts on this.

-- Is it common for an elderly man with dementia to become obsessed with sex, and how do I keep from having my whole life controlled by that?, by AgingCare.com

10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- but do you
11 know -- notwithstanding his age --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky, sorry.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Say that again.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky was another
15 person.

16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether, for
17 example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe he
19 did.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And what makes you say you
21 don't believe he did?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, because I
23 don't -- so that's a good question. The time that
24 Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the
25 only times I believe -- well, obviously they

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1 traveled. There was that, you know, the plane, they
2 went on the plane 26 times
or whatever. That would
3 be one journey.

4 So they spent time on the plane together,
5 and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the
6 plane
. So that would've been the only time that I
7 think that President Clinton could have even received
8 a massage. And he didn't, because I was there.

9 TODD BLANCHE: And you mentioned that
10 early -- in the very beginning of the conversation,
11 you mentioned President Trump in the early '90s.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: What -- what's -- what did
14 you observe, as far as President Trump, and his
15 relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I just want to
17 say for my relationship with President Trump --
18 relationship's a big word -- but I just want to say
19 that I met him or I believe I may have, because of my
20 father in the '90s.

And my and part of my question goes to her relationship with Epstein. Of course, she had a long relationship with Trump. I found a news article where she is on her father's yacht with Trump in 1986. So she's known Trump for a long long time.

-- Trump EPSTEIN RELEASE Only GETS WORSE… INSTANT Backfire, by Sidney Blumenthal, Legal AF, Aug 26, 2025

21 TODD BLANCHE: Yep. Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my father liked him
23 very much, and he was loved -- really liked his wife
24 as well, because we were both Czechoslovakian.

25 And as far as I'm concerned, President

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1 Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me.
2 And I just want to say that I find -- I -- I admire
3 his extraordinary achievement in becoming the
4 President now. And I like him, and I've always liked
5 him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire
6 relationship with him.

7 TODD BLANCHE: What about Mr. Epstein's
8 relationship with him?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how they
10 met, and I don't know how they became friends. I
11 certainly saw them together and I remember the few
12 times I observed them together, but they were
13 friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly.

14 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in social settings
15 or was that in private settings?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe I only ever
17 saw them in social settings. I don't recall any
18 private settings.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- have you
20 ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have.
22 TODD BLANCHE: In what time period are you
23 thinking about when you say yes?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember when
25 the President purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever

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1 it turned into the club, I went there and I was --
2 loved going there.

3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- did you go there
4 alone or with Mr. Epstein?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mostly alone.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know where --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the times I went
8 there it was for an event, maybe once or twice.

9 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
10 Mr. Epstein ever went there?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I believe he did,

12 but again, we really were -- he -- he didn't take me
13 with him all the time. So he would go and -- oh,
14 right. He never -- I never -- well, he did from time
15 to time, but he would go alone. I think he would
16 maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did.

17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
18 President Trump receive a massage?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe -- you
21 said that you -- you were -- I mean, have you seen
22 the -- there's photographs, public photographs of
23 Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And there's photographs

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1 of -- I think you're -- you're in some of the
2 photographs --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

4 TODD BLANCHE: -- as well. Those all
5 appear to be social settings.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Do you --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- that's my
9 memory. They were social settings. I don't know
10 Epstein's -- if he had -- whatever the nature of the
11 President's friendship, if you will, or however you
12 want to define that with Epstein, I was -- never
13 witnessed.
14 I think they were friendly like people are
15 in social settings. I don't -- I don't think they
16 were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the
17 President in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him
18 in his house, for instance.
19 I actually never saw the President in any
20 type of massage setting. I never witnessed the
21 President in any inappropriate setting in any way.
22 The President was never inappropriate with anybody.
23 In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman
24 in all respects.
25 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time you

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1 think you saw, in person, President Trump?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Um, it was -- it's --
3 it's been a long time. Probably not -- sometime in
4 the -- beginning -- mid -- mid 2000s maybe.
And it
5 would only have been a social setting, as far as I
6 recall.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And did you ever hear
8 Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had
9 done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with
10 anybody in your world?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely never, in
12 any context.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
14 masseuses from Mar-a-Lago's spa ended up giving
15 massages to -- private massages to Mr. Epstein? I'm
16 not asking for what you may have read
, but from -- at
17 the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know
18 whether that's true?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't -- I
20 don't recall.
Is it possible? Yes. But I don't
21 remember -- I don't remember that. So I don't want
22 to -- I don't recall that, but it's possible.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you have a recollection
24 of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa
25 to give -- to go give a private massage to

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1 Mr. Epstein?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never recruited a
3 masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I
4 remember. I can't ever recollect doing that.

5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So what -- what I
6 think we should do now, it's about 12:15. We'll take
7 a -- we'll take a break and we will come back in a
8 little bit.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 (Break at 12:15 p.m. to 12:59 p.m.)
12 SPENCER HORN: Good afternoon. We are
13 continuing the recorded proffer interview of
14 Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So just to continue
16 what we're talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused
17 on the '90s time period with -- understanding that
18 could spill over in the early 2000s. But still that
19 part of your -- of your life with Mr. Epstein.
20 There's been public reporting about
21 conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint
22 James.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: So can you talk about the
25 frequency with which you went there, and address some

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1 of those -- some of the reporting, namely around
2 young masseuses or young women who would be present
3 and what you observed --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

5 TODD BLANCHE: -- relating to them, and
6 then I'll ask questions around that.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if I'm right, he
8 purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with
9 the owners. And originally, we went to the island as
10 guests of the owners. And then I guess at some point
11 the owners told him -- he -- they wanted to sell and
12 he decided to purchase it.
13 So the island was very rustic. I loved
14 it.
He, of course, had completely different ideas.
15 And I would say there was none of what you were
16 describing at that early period of time.
17 So the frequency was -- was often. We're
18 often on the island, because he loved it. He really,
19 really loved it. And we would, -- we would go all
20 the time.
Mostly all the early phase was based on
21 improvements that could be made on the island.

22 Always going with new architects, new
23 designers, new construction people. I'd say the
24 first two years, almost every trip, not every one,
25 but almost every trip contained some -- an individual

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1 who would be brought on board to have an opinion as
2 to how to -- I don't want to use the word "improve
3 the island," because I don't think you could improve
4 it, but to -- I can't think what the word would be.
5 To -- what's the word I'm looking for? To develop
6 it. Sorry. That's the word.

7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Develop -- develop the
9 island. That's the word I'm looking for.
10 So -- so there were trips, constant trips
11 with that in mind. And I would say now if we are
12 moving to the late '90s, '96, '97 I definitely
13 witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior,

14 and a modification, if you will.
15 Where in the past, in the early '90s, I
16 don't remember traveling so much with other people.
17 There would be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now
18 he started to travel with more, always a masseuse.

19 Whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or
20 always an instructor. There was now starting to be
21 always an individual or a friend or whatever.
22 There's always a, like, maybe the word
23 would be entourage, but these were always people in
24 their 20s, late 20s, early 30s
in my -- as my memory
25 sees it, as I -- as I observe that time.

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1 And he tasked me with finding a local
2 masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes,
3 even though I say he would always travel with an
4 entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have
5 a massage locally.
6 So I visited the mass- -- the spas that
7 were local in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I
8 met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it
9 was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's
10 not exactly, you know. So, and I did find a couple
11 of people who would come.

12 So that's how they came, because also it
13 was a schlep. So if you had somebody who came, it
14 would be -- you would have to, you know, boat ride
15 and you -- several hours. It wasn't just a -- it's
16 not like arriving with your massage table and stuff.
17 So there was that. So I did do that.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So did, over the years,
19 males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I did say, I
21 don't think -- at the beginning, definitely. And I
22 would say towards sort of, again, late '90s, I don't
23 remember any men.
They were at the beginning, I
24 think in that -- towards the late '90s, I cannot
25 think of any men. I only think of women.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- well, you talk
2 about entourage flying, right now we're talking about
3 to the island. Did you observe any sexual, I was
4 going to say misconduct, but any sexual -- any sex at
5 all whatsoever on the plane?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never on the plane,

7 no.

8 TODD BLANCHE: Was there a part of the
9 plane that was closed off from others where
10 Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. Okay. So
12 that's a good question. So there were two planes.
13 So you had the -- there was a Gulfstream, and that's
14 open plan. So anything -- I mean, there was a sofa
15 that turned into a bed. And he did sleep on that.
16 And then -- but in the Boeing, which he
17 flew on a lot, there was -- his area could be closed
18 off with a door. And behind that door there would
19 be -- there was a bedroom and an office. So if that
20 door was shut, you wouldn't see it.

21 TODD BLANCHE: But do you -- so if you
22 never -- so -- but you never observed Mr. Epstein
23 engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody --
24 with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the
25 plane?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't say that. I
2 might have --

3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I definitely might,
5 either both in the Gulfstream or in the --

6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in the -- I'm sure
8 I did
, but it's not -- I can't --
9 TODD BLANCHE: That's fair.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I'm absolutely
11 sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was
12 so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or -- just --

13 when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear.
14 I generally -- what I think of that is
15 somebody on a massage table, but other people might
16 think of it as something different. You know, you
17 could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder.
18 I saw that all the time.
That I did. But sep- --
19 that's separate from being on a massage table.
20 TODD BLANCHE: How -- again, I know we're
21 talking about a decade-long period, but during the
22 period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how
23 often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the '90s, when
25 we're talking, he would get one every day.
I think,

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1 as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe
2 twice a day.
I do want to say that there was maybe a
3 reason that things altered or morphed or progressed,
4 and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I --
5 he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants
6 to call it altered.
7 And he started doing testosterone and that
8 altered his character. And I believe that started in
9 the late '90s.
And I believe that the FBI has his
10 medical records and you may see that on his medical
11 records.
Yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: So you believe that he
13 started taking testosterone in the '90s, and when you
14 say that altered his behavior, you're saying it
15 wanted to -- made him get more massages or that was
16 just one part of what changed about him?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he became more
18 aggressive.

19 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think that he
21 maybe -- well, now I'm just imagining that the
22 testosterone altered his desires or something
, does
23 that --
24 TODD BLANCHE: And so when, given what
25 you've said the past couple hours about his kind of
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1 progression or change, let's focus on that time
2 period, so the more towards the late '90s.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The testosterone.
4 Yeah, okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: So '96, '97, '98, you know,
6 toward --
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
8 TODD BLANCHE: -- when you've said that he
9 changed. Did you know flat out that he was having
10 sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with
11 masseuses regularly?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Flat out? No, I
13 denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would but I
14 think looking back now, that -- I did not. But I
15 started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems
16 ludicrous but that's what I thought.

17 TODD BLANCHE: But if -- look, if -- if
18 he's flying from Palm Beach to -- to St. Thomas or if
19 he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to
20 New York, or even in Palm Beach and there's young
21 women, putting aside whether they're under the age of
22 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple
23 masseuses -- multiple massages on some days, you're
24 interacting with the masseuses constantly.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Huh?

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Or maybe that's not right.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's not right.

3 TODD BLANCHE: Let me take back what I
4 just said. Ignore that part.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But you understand that he
7 is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple
8 times a day. The -- by the late '90s, it's all
9 women, presumably they're -- some of them are new,
10 but they're also repeat masseuses.
11 What did you -- I mean, you had to know at
12 that point that there was something going on beyond
13 just, he really needed to get massaged.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- very fair
15 question. There's two things. The first is the
16 person that he saw the most at that period of time
17 was in her 40s.

18 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And she was with him
20 all the time
. And I'm, like, married as well --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as -- I'm square.
23 And it never occurred -- well, I don't believe it
24 occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he
25 would be having relations. And he was with her --

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1 that was the person he had the most massages, yoga,
2 and that -- with -- at that time in the '90s period.
3 The second thing is that -- is he told me
4 he didn't -- he had difficulty having an erection,

5 and I believed him.

GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Epstein told me that he had a heart condition. Which meant that he didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine, because I actually do have a medical condition, which precludes me having a lot of intercourse. I don't know. I mean, he liked other forms of sexual activities.

6 TODD BLANCHE: When you said he said that,
7 you mean he regularly told you that? Like he --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When I first --
9 because when I didn't have sex with him after the
10 first time, and it took -- so I asked him, was it me?
11 And he told me it was him.
12 And I had never, up until this moment in
13 my life, I
-- as if I'm not stupid. I'm very bright.
14 I've had an excellent education. I traveled all over
15 the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never met
16 or understood that somebody could be so -- would lie
17 to me about -- I could -- it never occurred to me.
18 I didn't have a frame of context within my
19 life experience where somebody would be so
20 manipulative and devious with me. I just -- and
21 plus, I just didn't have -- I just -- and I was happy
22 not to have sex, because I have a condition that
23 doesn't lend itself to that.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Does -- when you learned --
25 so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, '08,

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1 '09 time period and he's arrested and charged and
2 there's all kinds of press around his purported
3 contact, at that point -- at that point, did you
4 accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make
5 sense at that point?
6 When you were reading about women who
7 claimed that they had been abused, even underage
8 and -- at that point, did you think to yourself,
9 well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about
10 it or no?

11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: First of all, I
12 didn't -- that's -- I only read what was in the
13 newspapers. I didn't have any other thing. And I'm
14 embarrassed to say it, I didn't -- I didn't believe
15 it
.

16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Right. I mean, you
17 didn't believe that the accusations were true at the
18 time.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So let's --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And sorry, I need to
22 say, even if they were true, I believe that he was
23 duped and he didn't know that they were -- whatever
24 that was in the papers at that time, whether they
25 said that they were 17 or,
I didn't -- it didn't

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1 register, because --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- along with all of
4 those -- well, not in 2006, but later when the more
5 salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were
6 utterly false
, which then just reinforced my belief
7 that the rest was not true.

8 TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question
9 about the age of the masseuses over the years. It --
10 I think in my mind, there's a difference between you
11 knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the
12 age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you
13 knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused
14 the underage person or made her strip or something
15 like that, meaning -- and I want to understand
16 whether you believe that nobody that came to give
17 massages, none of the women were under 18 or that you
18 didn't focus on their age, but you -- you were more
19 focused on whether any underage woman was abused by
20 him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it's better to
22 answer this question with corroborating evidence and
23 then go back and explain, so that I frame --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- your understanding
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1 of what I'm saying. Of the -- my understanding is
2 that in 2000 and, let's say 2008, they had
3 interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that
4 number.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You have to
7 understand, not a single one of those 44 women
8 mentioned me in a single report.
And it's not
9 because -- go back.
10 They didn't mention me in their report
11 because they never met me, they never saw me, and
12 they never interacted with me.
So to go back to your
13 question, it's not that I thought one way or another,
14 it's that I didn't see them.

15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I see. Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, that's helpful.
18 So --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- and but
20 when I say not one, not single one of those reports
21 talked about me. And I just want to clarify exactly,
22 because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls
23 is -- was one of the witnesses in my trial,
24 specifically [DOJ REDACTION] ["Jane" / "Carolyn"?].
25 To use her own testimony so that you don't
DOJ REDACTION
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1 have to --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- hear my point of
4 view. It's better if it comes from her own words and
5 that way there's no second-guessing whether -- what
6 I'm saying.
7 [DOJ REDACTION] herself said that [DOJ REDACTION]
8 recruited her, [DOJ REDACTION] brought her and [DOJ REDACTION]
9 trained her. Those are [DOJ REDACTION] own words.
10 Where was I going with this?
11 TODD BLANCHE: That you were -- that you
12 didn't know. I mean, I assume you were saying that
13 you weren't --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh yeah, sorry, sorry,
15 sorry, sorry.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. That's okay --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm trying to remember
18 where I was.
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- that's all right. It's
20 okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really do have some
22 slow cognition issues.
23 The --
24 TODD BLANCHE: So she says -- she
25 testifies that it was [DOJ REDACTION] that recruited her
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1 and trained her and not you.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So wait. So then in
3 her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman
4 with short dark hair at the house, which then is used
5 as evidence that that person was myself.
6 But the maid, lady that who helped keep
7 the house, John Alessi's wife -- oh, and with an
8 accent, I believe she said.
9 John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair
10 and an accent.
I'm sorry, but I find -- and you can
11 ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified
12 my accent. I've been in America a long time, but I'm
13 British. I've been brought up with a very strong
14 British accent.
15 And I don't believe there's an American on
16 planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be
17 British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't
18 know. But it's not some random accent.
19 Now the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was
20 John's wife that she saw, not me
.And I'd like to
21 point out further how you -- potentially her own --
22 through her own words. She identify --
3 DAVID MARKUS: Why don't we -- why don't
24 we --

25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.

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1 DAVID MARKUS: -- stop there and let him
2 ask the next question.

3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: You're good.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So it's -- so just -- and
7 look, I want to -- I want to try to -- I think
8 probably tomorrow we will -- I want to talk more
9 about kind of the evidence against you and how to
10 address that. So --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
12 TODD BLANCHE: No, don't apologize.
13 That's -- so that's helpful but --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- I don't want you to be
16 burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best
17 you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what
18 people said at trial or what you know the press says
19 about you
, so --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just thought it was
21 illustrative when you asked the question --
22 TODD BLANCHE: And it was. It was.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it
24 doesn't -- I did not -- I absolutely have no memory
25 at any -- now I'm leaving [DOJ REDACTION[ separate
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1 to this obviously --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- so that's a
4 separate story. I'm not going to pretend -- well,
5 we'll come to her.
6 TODD BLANCHE: We'll get to her. Go
7 ahead.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, she -- but in the
9 terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to
10 determine what you're calling that, I have no -- no
11 memory, no active anything of having seen anybody
12 that resembles a young -- a child, let's call it what
13 it is, at that house giving him a massage at all.
14 It's not even like I did this. It's an at
15 all. And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me
16 either, including [DOJ REDACTION]
.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and when you say
18 "that house," I --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
20 Palm Beach.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, I understand what
22 you mean but, and I -- does the same memory or lack
23 thereof, apply to on planes, at -- in New Mexico, in
24 New York, in --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, with some other

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1 important caveats. Well, on that -- but Julian --
2 Jane, in my trial, was clearly underage, clearly a
3 child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach and I only
4 saw her with her mother.
5 The other person who's clearly also not an
6 adult or even close, [DOJ REDACTION], I believe, I
7 remember her now. That would be the only two or
8 three, whatever that is.

9 TODD BLANCHE: So did you ever know
10 Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either
11 like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or
12 just generally with FBI agents?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think if he had done
15 that, you would've known, like he would've told you
16 something like that? Like if I said to you,
17 Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say,
18 that's crazy, no, he wasn't or maybe he was, I
19 would -- he wouldn't have told me that anyway.

20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have two answers for
21 that. I think if he was for real, I think he
22 would've bragged about it to me as a show off,
23 because he could be a show off. And if he wasn't, he
24 might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don't
25 think -- I don't remember him doing either.

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1 Now, with, again, the caveat that in
2 his -- before I met him finding money, I think he may
3 have suggested that there was some people who helped
4 him, but that's the only context that I recall that
5 in.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What do you mean by that?

7 When you said "finding money," what do you mean?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, his business
9 where he -- remember I told you --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I think in that
12 context, he made -- he showed me a photograph that he
13 had with some African warlords or something that he
14 told me. And, you know, I get -- I don't remember if
15 I -- that's what I interpreted the -- like that kind
16 of thing or whether it was something like that.
17 That's the only actual active memory I
18 have of something nefarious -- not nefarious. I
19 don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I
20 suppose would be the word.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And what about any other
22 intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense
23 Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't think
25 so. I think that -- I don't remember anything like

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1 that. I just don't think he had the wherewithal and
2 I think that whole aspect of that is -- can I use a
3 bad word?
4 DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bullshit.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what do you --
8 you think it's bullshit, meaning? What do you mean?
9 DAVID MARKUS: Would you have known if he
10 was -- would he have been bragging to you? Would he
11 have been saying these things.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was because
13 I -- I think, well, sorry. I think that -- I think
14 one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my,
15 you know, my family connections and why he liked
16 other people was because they were cool or whatever.
17 And I think that, certainly, early in when
18 I met him, he would've tried to impress me or tried
19 to show off, if you will. Like he was that guy, you
20 know, and he wasn't that guy. And so -- and I think
21 that he would've tried to bullshit me and he didn't,

22 so I think it's --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Did --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he may have
25 tried to bullshit me, but no, I couldn't
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So I want to just shift for
4 a few minutes to talk about post-2000. 2000 to kind
5 of when your relationship changed over the years with
6 him.
7 Did there come a time when he,
8 Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the Royal Family?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I need to go back,
12 because I think I may have misspoke --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I didn't misspeak
15 but I
--
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, go ahead.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- it's something that
18 I have forgotten
.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Of course. Yeah.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before I met Epstein,
21 he lived in London for a period of time, I don't know
22 for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy
23 people, like people -- high society people, that
24 included Princess Diana's best friend. Her name was
25 Rosa Monckton. And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson
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1 who's a famous journalist, actually is a very well
2 known journalist.
3 And when I -- and he had -- he was friends
4 with the Barings, Barings Bank and he had like, sort
5 of --

6 TODD BLANCHE: That was, you're talking
7 about --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before he met me.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Before, so in the --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '80s.
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- '80s. Okay.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. He was dating
13 Eva Andersson, Miss Sweden, I think. I don't know
14 when she became Miss Sweden.

15 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So earlier when you
16 said that he met them later --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- you think he may have
19 met some members of the Royal Family or certainly
20 British high society.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He met -- I don't know
22 about the Royal Family, but certainly high society.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason why I
25 know this is because, sometime we can -- this is a

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1 documentable thing. Docu -- whatever. There's a
2 photograph that can give you the date, because I
3 don't remember what the date is of this, so there's
4 something that will peg whatever this date is. I
5 don't remember when that is.
6 Epstein went to London without me. He
7 often went everywhere without me, but he was in
8 London without me
, which was decently unusual because
9 London's my hometown.
10 But anyway, he went without me. And he
11 went to a big event in, I think it was in the --
12 anyway, it was a big event. It's on -- it's on --
13 it's on -- it's on the news. It's like a -- there's
14 photographs of it. And he, I don't know if he sat
15 with Diana or he met Diana and he'd already met her.
16 I don't know, but this, I believe was organized by
17 Rosa.
18 And so there's -- I don't know if she was
19 being set up as a date for him, maybe because she --
20 I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but -- I'm not
21 going to do that.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So that was
23 pre-meeting you.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that was -- that
25 event happened when we were -
-

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. That was
2 (Inaudible).
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I would --
4 sometime --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - no, it's when we
7 were --
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.

9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I'm not going to
10 say together, but when -- how about this? When I was
11 his employee, that's a bit better.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So now moving back
13 to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein
14 met Prince Andrew?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And others in the
17 Royal Family or just Prince Andrew as, far as you
18 know?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so as -- as much
20 as I can piece it together, all right, first of all
21 let's just state, I did not introduce him to
22 Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince
23 Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson.
That is a flat untruth.
24 I'll start with that.
25 So now I'm going to tell you how he did

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1 actually meet him. So I -- if you find me that
2 photograph, I can date that time when he met
3 Princess Diana at that event. I -- and based on
4 that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post
5 that event
, because I haven't looked it up and I've
6 never bothered to check.
7 So Lynn Forester, who was a client or some
8 type of client, or I think she actually tried to date
9 him or might have dated him
, for the record.
She was
10 in -- do you want to ask me something?
11 TODD BLANCHE: No, go ahead.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. She was -- she
13 had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I
14 think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can't
15 remember now which one it was. It was one of those.
16 It was either in Nantucket or the Vineyard, and
17 invited Epstein to go, and I believe that's when he
18 met Prince Andrew.
19 However, I believe that before that event,
20 he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with
21 Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had
22 arranged with Lynn, or I don't know. I don't know.
23 Now I'm speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met
24 Andrew up there
.

25 TODD BLANCHE: And I'm not holding you to
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1 an exact date, but when, approximately, was that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, we can date it
3 from that picture, if you find me the picture.
4 TODD BLANCHE: But do you know, I --
5 without looking at a photo, in your mind,
6 approximately, when was that.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say it was
8 the 2000 -- no, probably 2001, 2002.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Early 2000s?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And I think it was actually
12 Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met
13 Jeffrey Epstein through you.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that's true.

15 So -- well --
16 LEAH SAFFIAN: It's true that Andrew said
17 that.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, no, I'm sure
19 it's true, because I -- I'm English and my close
20 friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew.
21 And I would not say that I was close friends with
22 Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and
23 certainly his best friends, some of them, are very
24 close with me.
25 And I think that my friendship, my -- me

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1 being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey
2 more, like, trust him or I think that's the idea.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't dispute that
4 you're -- that you kind of had a role in them getting
5 together. You're just saying you didn't say, Prince,
6 here's Jeffrey.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would never have
8 introduced them.
It would never have occurred to me
9 to introduce them. I couldn't imagine them being
10 friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never -- I
11 mean, for real, there's nothing there to connect
12 them.
13 So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a
14 really good relationship.
I don't like that word.
15 It sounds clunky. They had a friend --
16 DAVID MARKUS: Acquaintanceship.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. And --
18 through Sarah, actually. I think Sarah is the one
19 that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want
20 to say two or three times that had nothing to do with
21 me. I wasn't communicating with Andrew, I wasn't in
22 touch with him.
23 And I know this because I was annoyed and
24 I felt left out
, and I felt disrespected and I was
25 like, this is weird. I couldn't even imagine Epstein

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1 and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was
2 trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being
3 honest, and I thought the whole thing was annoying
4 and I was pissed off
.
5 TODD BLANCHE: So what happened with their
6 relationship? Putting aside the publicity around
7 Prince Andrew's purported relationship with
8 [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre], what happened, as far as you know, with
9 Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship, from
10 the times you just described or you give me --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So after that,
12 at some point Jeffrey told me -- Epstein told me that
13 Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to
14 organize the whole thing.
That's classic by the way,
15 classic Epstein.
16 Of course, if someone -- I'm like, all
17 right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make
18 sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was
19 comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada, yada,
20 yada.
21 And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him
22 or are you just going to have me do all the job? And
23 he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello.
24 Like, wow. Well, that's so nice of you, for real.
25 Because you have to understand, like, I

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1 don't know if I told you this before, but I did not
2 have the keys to his -- I was not allowed to go to
3 his house, unless I was summoned or told. I was not
4 allowed to answer his phones. We can go there, but
5 anyway. So this -- you can tell there's a bit of a
6 sore point, perhaps.
7 Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the
8 minute we got together I was like, yay. Hi. And
9 then it was so nice, because the difference of being
10 in England with Prince Andrew versus being in
11 New York without all the bullshit was insane.
12 And our friendship just like lit up like
13 this, because first of all, he knew that I'm safe.
I
14 mean safe as in I'm not, yeah, you know, Nigel
15 Dempster or taking a picture.
16 I mean, not in a million years would I do
17 something so gross. And we honestly got on like a
18 house on fire. I really liked him a lot and he's --
19 it was so nice and we just became really, really good
20 friends, much more so than when we were in London, if
21 I'm honest.

22 TODD BLANCHE: And then with respect to [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre]
23 and Prince Andrew, what do you know about
24 that relationship?

25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Would you like to ask
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1 that again? Relationship is a big word. Like I
2 said, I don't like the word. Let's just start there.
3 Okay.
4 So I have read -- I just want to like
5 piece together.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but don't say --
7 before you say what you read, because that's one of
8 the problems is that we're all kind of --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. What, I
10 know --
11 TODD BLANCHE: -- we're all formed by like
12 all the publicity and information around what
13 everybody else has said, but like, what do you --
14 DAVID MARKUS: Know.
15 TODD BLANCHE: -- what do you think or
16 what did you see? What did you hear?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's an even bigger
18 word than bullshit?
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Why? Well, go ahead
20 just -- but finish that thought. Why do you think
21 that?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm going to tell you
23 right now. I'm so happy to tell you. I'm like
24 excited. I'm beyond excited.
25 Okay. So there's been a mixture of what
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1 I've actually seen and know from the evidence and
2 versus what I've put together. Impossible for me at
3 this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you
4 what I know versus what I saw and what I physically
5 have in here, but it's helpful for you to know.
6 So the allegation, I have to go with the
7 allegation. The allegation was that at my house in
8 London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe,
9 we went to London, especially so that [DOJ REDACTION][Virginia Giuffre] could
10 have a -- or [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] could have a relationship with
11 Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money
12 for that purpose.
13 Okay. And that she then got in the -- in
14 my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual
15 relations with him and then went into my guest room
16 and had full blown sex and then left my house, or he
17 left, and she felt used and disgusting.
18 And a photograph was taken of them just
19 before all these events took place in my study. That
20 is what is the story.
21 Oh, and then after that she met him
22 several other times. But we'll come to that. We'll
23 come -- this is where it will -- allegedly started.
24 LEAH SAFFIAN: And they went to Tramp.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, right. We went to

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1 nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right?
2 We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay. So the
3 first thing about that weekend, that specific
4 weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in
5 the country.

6 And I have some corroborating evidence for
7 that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So
8 that takes care of the reason why I -- one of the
9 reasons why her story doesn't hold water.
[????]

10 The second reason why -- so -- by the way,
11 when I say that, my mum turned 80th, that actual
12 weekend was, her birthday is on March the 11th. And
13 the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but
14 I -- this I don't remember, is why when we were -- so
15 the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who
16 is the decorator for the island and for -- and for
17 New York as well.
18 And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a
19 house in Marrakesh
, if I remember rightly, and went
20 via the Alhambra, it was also for New Mexico. So
21 there's architectural pieces that -- paint. And that
22 was the basis of that trip.
23 And I suspect now, that that trip was
24 planned all around the fact that I had to be in --
25 wanted to be in -- was going to be in London no

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1 matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my
2 brother's house in the country, which is
3 approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and
4 a half --
5 LEAH SAFFIAN: An hour and a half.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- an hour and a half
7 outside of London, in my brother's home. And we all
8 congregated on the Saturday for her birthday
9 celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So
10 that's that.
11 The second reason why -- probably maybe
12 even the more important reason than my mum's
13 birthday, that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that
14 Prince Andrew. The idea of him doing anything of
15 that nature in my house, that's the size of this
16 room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me, as
17 the man or what -- I just can't -- I can't even --
18 I -- no.

19 DAVID MARKUS: Is there any way that it
20 could have happened?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
23 LEAH SAFFIAN: Describe the physical plan.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, the physical -- so
25 the -- my house was tiny. I think it's 900 square
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1 feet in total. Well, maybe that; is that right?
2 Maybe nine --
3 LEAH SAFFIAN: Yes.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It is on three floors,
5 however. So you're talking about a little -- it's a
6 jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was
7 the stables for the big house. It was a little poor
8 man's home behind the rich man's home. It's a jewel.
9 It's a -- was a gorgeous little place, but
10 it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let's
11 say, a little burp or something you don't want to --
12 you'd hear it. It just --
13 Where she says that they had relations in
14 a bathroom, I -- first of all, the bath is an old
15 Victorian bath. I could -- I'm quite -- quite small,
16 it's tight for me. I put my brother in there to see
17 what would happen. And it looks like a blivet, which
18 is a sausage in like a very tight skin.
19 So her description of whatever the two
20 people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work.
21 The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat
22 on the floor. So it couldn't happen on the floor,
23 because you physically, physically can't. This
24 bathroom is too small to even be on the floor.
25 And then the kicker of all kickers, is

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1 that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated
2 it to try make it look huge, which meant that I put
3 mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun
4 about being in there is that if you stood in the
5 bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you
, like you do
6 if you were in --
7 DAVID MARKUS: A fun house.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, well, Alice in
9 Wonderland or one of those things that you would see
10 yourself going, stretching everything. And the
11 image. If you said you were -- let's say you were,
12 let's say that [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] was telling the truth.
13 She could say she was having sex with
14 5,000 generations of the Royal Family, because that's
15 how far back you could see yourself. There is no way
16 in God's green earth if that had taken place, that
17 this is something that you would miss, because it's
18 -- you couldn't miss it.

19 If you were standing there, you'd see the
20 whole -- the FBI, the whole Department of Justice
21 standing behind you. It's like, no.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
23 LEAH SAFFIAN: And also -- let me just --
24 also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well it's an old
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1 Vic- had a tap. So if you were in -- if you were in
2 the top, right, it might -- this is the tub. My tap
3 would be here, I think -- no.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So you think it's kind of
5 logistically and physically not something that could
6 have happened.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, there's that.
8 And there's just -- Andrew would -- he's so English.
9 He's so -- he had a tie on.
10 DAVID MARKUS: Do you think there's any
11 way it could have happened or no?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely on -- no
13 way -- no how, absolutely not.
Wait, I haven't
14 finished. So on her --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Go --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
17 DAVID MARKUS: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go, go, go.
20 Finish. Please, go ahead.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Can I finish?
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. When all this
24 nonsense took place, where this whole story with the
25 picture and the this and the that and this bullshit,
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:18 am

Part 5 of 6

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1 I believe that this whole thing was manufactured, and
2 I can point you to some potentially corroborating
3 evidence of this.
4 So when she gave the photograph to the FBI
5 in Australia --
6 DIEGO PESTANA: Just to be clear, the
7 photo, you're talking about, you're talking about the
8 famous one where --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I have a image
10 of it here. Who wants to look at it?
11 DIEGO PESTANA: -- where Prince Andrew is
12 holding [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] and you're in the background?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The fake, just to be
14 clear.
So on the back of that, and this is in the
15 discovery by the way. I don't know if it's in -- I
16 don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now.
17 But this -- she wrote, she, [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre],
18 wrote in the back that it was a picture that was
19 taken in January of 2000 and -- on 2000 or 2001, I
20 don't remember.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So now in her
23 handwriting, that she's giving the FBI this picture,
24 suddenly now it's March. So how do you go from her
25 writing it's January to March. It's because it
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1 only -- it's the only one that fit with the flight
2 logs, that when she could be in London and this took
3 place.
4 The second thing is that -- oh, I'm so
5 excited to tell you this. There is a journalist, I
6 know you guys are quite -- well, I don't know. The
7 fake news is at work here.
8 So there's a journalist called Sharon
9 Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards.
10 These two -- and there is a Southern District of
11 Florida prosecutor called Villafana.
12 I would very much look forward to showing
13 you the relationship between these three parties that
14 created that story.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Why? Well, without --
16 putting aside the relationship, why do you think they
17 created that story?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe that story
19 was created for the purposes of -- well, there are
20 multiple. The first one is financial, the second one
21 is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one
22 was for the serialization, both of her book and in
23 the papers, for the story to attack the Royal Family.

24 And just as a --
25 TODD BLANCHE: So I think when -- when you
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1 were just asked about the photo, you said you
2 actually thought the photo was fake.
3 Do you think it was just misdated or do
4 you think it's a fake -- literally a fake photo?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe it's
6 literally a fake photo.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
9 don't remember it.
We'll start --
10 TODD BLANCHE: But you --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Okay. But the
12 outfit I'm wearing --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- is the outfit from
15 my mum's birthday party.

16 TODD BLANCHE: So but you don't have
17 any -- do you dispute that they've met each other?
18 DAVID MARKUS: Do you know whether they've
19 met each other?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not know that
21 they met.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So -- so you not
23 only -- so you think the photograph is fake, but you
24 also are not even positive they actually ever met
25 each other.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't have a
3 specific recollection of kind of being at an event or
4 a party or your apartment, or you know, you're flat
5 in London with Prince Andrew and [DOJ REDACTION]?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.

7 DAVID MARKUS: She doesn't know one way or
8 the other.

9 TODD BLANCHE: Understand that.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just -- I want you
11 to know that --
12 TODD BLANCHE: No, I know.

13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- the reason why --
14 I'm not hesitant. I'm not -- I don't have any memory
15 of that, so that -- that's not the issue. The issue
16 is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or
17 see Epstein, and say hi and she had been there? Yes.
18 I can't say that that didn't happen.
19 But what I can absolutely, categorically
20 say is that I never, at any time, set Andrew up to
21 have relations with her or any other human being

22 ever.
23 And I can categorically state that her --
24 her characterization of whatever may or may not have
25 happened, could -- physically would just no.
And
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1 plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not
2 conceivable.

3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you attend -- did you
4 attend social parties over -- and again, I really,
5 now I'm focused on 2000 plus, so not -- not the
6 earlier, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a
7 big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or
8 many of the young women who were masseuses would be
9 invited to the party, as guests or his entertainment?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I certainly went to
11 his house when he would have people who would be
12 there that were -- I call them -- I would -- the way
13 I would think of it and I would characterize it, were
14 his entourage.
That's how I thought about it. And
15 that certainly was in the later 2000s, Yes.


16 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you attend any
17 weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again,
18 I'm mostly focused on post -- plus -- post 2000, but
19 if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s,
20 that's fine as well.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A wedding?
22 TODD BLANCHE: Weddings.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Epstein? I don't
24 think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can't
25 think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so you don't
2 remember -- you didn't attend President Clinton's
3 daughter's wedding --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- Chelsea Clinton's.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
7 TODD BLANCHE: But that wasn't with
8 Mr. Epstein?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, it was with
10 Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Ted Waitt, my
13 boyfriend.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know whether
15 Mr. Epstein was at that wedding?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was not.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And how did you --
18 did you have a relationship -- well, why did you get
19 invited to that wedding?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Ted and
21 Clinton were very close.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And why -- how were you
23 close to them? Like what was the reason you were
24 close to them?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met President

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1 Clinton -- well, I first of all, I went to the
2 White House with Epstein once for, I think it was for
3 a historical, like one of those benefits and I met
4 the President then, but like a thousand other people
5 shook his hand.
6 Then after that, I had a very -- a good
7 friend of mine that was the mayor -- known to be the
8 Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and
9 the President were very good friends. And Philip was
10 a very -- and I were very good friends, and so I
11 actually was introduced to the President post his
12 coming out of the White House and became friendly
13 with him, because of Philip Levine.

14 DAVID MARKUS: Because of what?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Philip Levine.
16 TODD BLANCHE: There's some names that
17 have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I
18 just want to ask you if you know about: Piers
19 Morgan?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is friendly with who?
21 TODD BLANCHE: With Mr. Epstein.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no idea.
23 Never. I doubt it.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. There's no trick
25 question. I'm not trying to --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Yeah.
2 TODD BLANCHE: -- I'm not suggesting that
3 I know the answer to it. I'm generally just asking.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I would be
5 astonished. I can't imagine they'd have anything in
6 common either.
7 TODD BLANCHE: How about --
8 DIEGO PESTANA: Were you friends with
9 Piers Morgan?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've met him. I've
11 met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I
12 can't remember what -- in more recently, so probably
13 in 2012, '13, something in that, and we had a very
14 nice conversation. So I remember -- I remember that.
15 I remember thinking -- I'd never -- I
16 don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I
17 remember thinking how nice he was and I was
18 surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you?
19 So that's the only one -- that's the only
20 memory I have of that. I'm not sure if that's
21 correct but that's what I think.

22 TODD BLANCHE: I don't have a correct or
23 incorrect answer. I just want you to tell the truth.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I just don't know.
25 I just want to try and...
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1 TODD BLANCHE: No, but I don't -- I want
2 you to believe me and -- because I mean this. There
3 is so much information in the public sphere --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I see. Okay.
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- about you and
6 Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is
7 definitely true and some of it is definitely false --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. All right. I
9 just -- I guess that's --
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- so when I ask a question
11 --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- if I think that you're
14 not being honest or that you're missing something,
15 I'm not going to -- this isn't got you.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
17 TODD BLANCHE: I'll say that to you.

18 Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm sorry?
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will -- I met him at
24 Andrew Cuomo's wedding? No, Kerry -- Kerry's
25 wedding. Kerry's wedding. Who did Kerry marry?

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1 Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Andrew Cuomo's wedding
4 in --
5 TODD BLANCHE: So when would that have
6 been, approximately?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1990.
8 TODD BLANCHE: So before --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1999. I don't -- I --
10 something like that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: But would that have been
12 before you met Mr. Epstein?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or maybe -- yes.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you have a -- any sort
15 of professional or social relationship with John F.
16 Kennedy, Jr.?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I fancied him.
18 TODD BLANCHE: You what?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought he was very
20 attractive.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you fancied him.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Besides him -- finding him
24 attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort
25 of, you know, social relationship with him?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, we knew each
2 other. I thought he was wonderful and fun and I
3 enjoyed meeting him, but I -- we went out -- I want
4 to say we had a dinner or two, but obviously I was
5 very excited, but that was it.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And then Alan Dershowitz.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- what's the
8 question with Alan?
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- say that again.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What's the question?
11 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he knew
14 Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their
15 relationship?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I definitely do
17 know Alan. I want -- I'm just trying to remember if
18 I knew him -- I am trying to remember how I met him.
19 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and if I met him
21 separate from -- I don't remember.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that I have no
24 recollection. I remember -- I know that he was
25 Epstein's lawyer. I don't know if they had any

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1 relationship prior to that. I don't remember. Oh, I
2 do actually. Sorry.
3 I think they met at the same
4 Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forester. I think
5 that's what happened. I think that's it.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And why do you think that?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because it just popped
8 into my head.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you -- did
10 you -- you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's
11 attorney.
12 Do you know whether they also socialized?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my personal memory
14 of when I remember two -- I have two distinct
15 memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at
16 the island, and I actually remember that. And I
17 remember, I think, going to his house in Boston, if
18 he had a house in Boston, that's -- it was only two
19 times I remember.

20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
21 Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with
22 young women around Mr. Epstein?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear
25 anybody -- did anybody ever tell you that he had done

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1 anything inappropriate?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever -- did you --
4 do you know one way or the other, whether
5 Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or
6 any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember
8 anything about him ever getting massaged. I don't
9 ever have any recoll -- I don't believe I ever even
10 saw him in a bathrobe. I have no knowledge of that.

11 TODD BLANCHE: I'm jumping around a little
12 bit. You mentioned, I think briefly the TerraMar
13 Project.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What is that?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I founded TerraMar
17 in -- well, the idea of TerraMar came, I think in
18 2010. So I want to just explain TerraMar a little
19 bit.
20 So Ted and I bought a boat -- well, Ted
21 bought the boat. And its -- basis of the boat was to
22 do explorations and sea -- sea exploratory stuff.
23 This really started because I have, and have had
24 since I was a child, a love of the ocean and
25 everything aquatic. And I've always been, I just --

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1 I'm nervous about the state of the ocean.
2 When Ted and I, we worked with National
3 Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most
4 exciting -- we did many exciting things, but one of
5 the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for
6 Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look
7 for Amelia Earhart, as an example of an -- of a
8 exploration that we did.
9 And he had a foundation for the ocean and
10 we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole.
11 We did amazing things.
12 We bought-- he bought the Remus 6000, so
13 when the plane went missing, the plane that went --
14 was it Air France? From Brazil to Paris that went
15 down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane.
16 It's one of those deep sea explorers.
17 Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I
18 just -- one of the things I did not want to give up
19 was the -- my love of the ocean and everything that
20 we did and TerraMar, the genesis of TerraMar came
21 from that. So TerraMar obviously means land, sea.
22 And the story of the ocean is that earth
23 really shouldn't be called earth, it should be called
24 ocean because three quarters is the ocean.
25 So -- and so I wanted to not clash with

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1 anything to do with Ted, because it was a bit awkward
2 between us and I -- so he took all the part of the
3 ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles.
4 And so I decided I would focus on all the
5 part of the ocean that was outside of national
6 borders, TerraMar. And that's how that -- that's the
7 genesis of TerraMar. Okay.

8 TODD BLANCHE: So what was the time period
9 of that?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That -- I think after
11 I broke up with Ted, so 2010, '11 is when it started.
12 And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the
13 Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down.
14 Not -- I shut it down because I didn't
15 want what was happening to hurt any -- the
16 Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the -- I just couldn't let
17 everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Jean-Luc
19 Brunel?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him -- so
23 when -- I told you I was working for the European,
24 for my dad --
25 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and I was in
2 charge.

3 TODD BLANCHE: So back in like '90, early
4 '90s?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. And I was
6 running a magazine. One of the things in the
7 magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some
8 fashion shows and I was looking for fashion
9 sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America,
10 one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron
11 Perelman at Revlon, who was great. And I met
12 Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. But
13 socially not ...
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Epstein know him as
15 well? Did you later learn whether they knew each
16 other?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure I -- I
18 don't -- he would've -- Epstein had his own fashion
19 situation, so he would've -- I don't -- he didn't
20 meet Jean-Luc through me.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe them
22 together over the years?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. Yeah, I
24 saw them many times together.

25 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did he visit the

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1 island?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did he go to Palm --
4 meet -- go to Palm Beach House?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, he went -- yeah,
6 he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did do you ever observe him
8 getting a massage or do you ever know whether they
9 got a massage? Maybe you didn't observe him
10 personally? You don't remember.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know. I mean,
12 I don't -- I never -- I have no conscious memory of
13 Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I
14 never -- I don't see it.
15 TODD BLANCHE: How about Mr. Weinstein,
16 Harvey Weinstein?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What would you like to
18 know?
19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know him?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? Like,
22 I guess when I say "how do you know him," is it a
23 relationship you had kind of separate from
24 Mr. Epstein or did you guys -- did you meet him
25 through Mr. Epstein or both?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn't say --
2 first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of
3 relationship with Harvey Weinstein --

4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in any context.
6 Socially, I would meet him because I would
7 go to events that Harvey would be at and also his
8 wife was English back then, Georgina. And I was, I
9 mean, friendly also, would be a big word, more
10 acquaintance.

11 So we would see each other and I would go
12 to Miramax events, be -- there was a couple of people
13 who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with
, his
14 primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster, who I
15 was friendly with, and yeah.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
17 Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with
18 Mr. Weinstein?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He did.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did they socialize together
21 at the island or in Palm Beach, or in New Mexico?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw Harvey at
23 any of Epstein's houses. So socialize -- I don't
24 know that they were friends. I mean, I can't see
25 them together, either. I mean, literally.

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1 But I know that they certainly do that. I
2 would imagine -- and in fact, I think I have a
3 memory, but I can't -- that when Harvey was trying to
4 raise money for whatever his business was called, I
5 can't remember what his business was called.
6 Maybe he went there, because Epstein was
7 good at raising money. I just don't know.
But I
8 never saw them. I don't -- I don't recall seeing
9 Harvey in any of the properties.

10 TODD BLANCHE: Let's just go a few more
11 minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch.
12 So do you -- we talked several hours ago
13 about your father and his business a little bit.
14 After your father passed, do you know
15 whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family
16 business, that you know of?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not, in any
18 respect.
First of all, there was no family business
19 left. Start with that problem. And the second one
20 is, my family didn't like him very much. And they
21 were busy dealing with their own problems and there
22 was no relationship whatsoever.
23 Oh, I mean, he -- my mum and he got along
24 quite well. That was it. But that was -- she's an
25 old lady and, you know, he was nice to her.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: We're repeat -- we're now
2 being a little repetitive, but you're confident that
3 before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your
4 father, and so there's no -- he wouldn't have done
5 business with your father's companies in the '80s
6 either.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. I'm a
8 hundred percent sure of that. I never met him. I
9 never saw him. I never heard his name. No.
10 Nothing.

According to former Israeli military intelligence officer Ari Ben-Menashe, who I first interviewed in December 2019, Epstein’s affiliation with Israeli intelligence dated back at least to the mid-1980s, when Ben-Menashe was personally introduced to Epstein by Robert Maxwell. Per Ben-Menashe, Maxwell introduced Epstein as having been approved by the "higher ups" in the Israeli intelligence network where Ben-Menashe and Maxwell were both operating. The introduction reportedly occurred at Maxwell’s offices in London.85

During this period, Ben-Menashe has stated that he believes one of these "higher ups" was Ehud Barak, the future Prime Minister of Israel who was head of the Israeli military intelligence directorate AMAN from 1983 to 1985. Ben-Menashe could not recall the exact date of his introduction to Epstein, but stated that it occurred within that 1983-1985 period in which Barak held this post. Barak would later become infamous for his close proximity, not only to Epstein, but his sex trafficking/sex blackmail operation, which is discussed in the next chapter.

In a September 2019 interview with journalist and former CBS News producer Zev Shalev, he stated "he [Maxwell] wanted us to accept him [Epstein] as part of our group.… I’m not denying that we were at the time a group that it was Nick Davies [Foreign Editor of the Maxwell-Owned Daily Mirror], it was Maxwell, it was myself and our team from Israel, we were doing what we were doing."86

Past reporting by Seymour Hersh and others revealed that Maxwell, Davies, and Ben-Menashe were involved in the transfer and sale of military equipment and weapons from Israel to Iran on behalf of Israeli intelligence during this time period. Ben-Menashe was not aware of Epstein being involved in arms deals for anyone else he knew at the time, but did confirm that Maxwell wanted to involve Epstein in the arms transfer in which he, Davies, and Ben-Menashe were engaged on Israel’s behalf.

After the initial introduction, Ben-Menashe would witness Epstein at Maxwell’s offices on several occasions, stating that Epstein was "frequently present" at that location. Ben-Menashe stated specifically that Epstein "used to be in [Robert Maxwell’s] office [in London] quite often" and would arrive there between trips to and from Israel.87 Ben-Menashe also asserted that Ghislaine Maxwell accompanied her father so frequently that she was involved in his intelligence-related activities to some extent. However, he stopped short of saying how involved she was or what she had specifically been involved in prior to her father’s death. Ghislaine’s early life and her relationship with her father is detailed in Chapter 15.

Aside from Ben-Menashe’s claims, there are also statements made by Steven Hoffenberg that, during the late 1980s, Epstein had boasted of his ties to Israel’s intelligence services, claiming that it had been Ghislaine Maxwell who had made the introduction.88 Furthemore, Zev Shalev reported that another well-placed and independent source, who has remained anonymous, had corroborated Ben-Menashe’s assertions that Epstein had been an intelligence asset for Israel.89


Close ties to Israel’s government later in his life can also be seen in an odd visit Epstein made to Israel in 2008. The visit was odd partly due to the timing, as it took place during the course of his trial and just a few months before he was sentenced to prison in June 2008. In April of that year, the Palm Beach Daily News reported that Epstein was staying at the Tel Aviv Hilton and quoted an Epstein spokesman as saying that he was "spending Passover, meeting with Israeli research scientists, and taking a tour of military bases."90 Access to military bases is certainly not something easily obtained by tourists to Israel, even very wealthy ones, again suggesting that Epstein had long-standing connections to Israel’s national security apparatus, along with his "friendship" to Ehud Barak.

-- One Nation Under Blackmail: The Sordid Union Between Intelligence and Crime that Gave Rise to Jeffrey, by Whitney Webb

11 TODD BLANCHE: So there's been a lot of
12 conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained,
13 like, a list of people, like a book of famous people
14 that he knew. Like a, it's called a black book or a
15 client list or a list.
16 Did you know of the existence of any such
17 list?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list.

19 We'll start with that. The genesis of that story, I
20 can actually trace for you from its absolute
21 inception, if that is what you're interested in.
22 TODD BLANCHE: It is.
23 DAVID MARKUS: Well, first, you know, to
24 be short, there is no list, there's no client list.
25 Nothing like that.
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there is nothing
2 like that.
3 TODD BLANCHE: That you know of.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I -- obviously.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. Yeah. Okay. So
6 you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead.
7 Tell us.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'd like you to know
9 that I have brought some supporting corroborative
10 evidence to --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, tell me what it is,
12 too, and then we'll get the corroboration.
13 LEAH SAFFIAN: Well, why don't you tell
14 him first.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Is this -- is this -- do
16 you want to take a break here because this is a
17 long --
18 TODD BLANCHE: It's a long story.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, this is long.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, let's take a break.
21 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is
22 2:03 and we're going to take a break right now.
23 (Off the record at 2:03 p.m.)
24 SPENCER HORN: All right. We're resuming
25 the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2:16 on
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1 Thursday, July 24th. And the recording device is now
2 on.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So when we stopped to take
4 a break, we were talking about what has been publicly
5 discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And
6 that's where we are.
7 So you said you think you might know or
8 that you're aware of kind of the origin of this
9 narrative.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I just want to
11 reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of.
12 I've never, at any time, at least during the period
13 of time when I was --
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- present.
16 The origin of this story, I believe,
17 begins -- or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it
18 has a prequel but we have to start in 2009.
19 In 2009, there is -- Epstein is, I think,
20 out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place.
21 Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm,
22 Rothstein Adler -- Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler.
23 At that law firm is a lawyer who started
24 there in April, May, 2009, called Brad Edwards. In
25 2009, allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of

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1 2009 from Brad Edwards, and he allegedly tells them
2 that he has come across a piece of evidence that
3 belongs to Epstein, that contains a list of all of
4 his clients and victims, underage girls, massage
5 therapists, and his -- and the men who are having sex
6 with them. And he becomes -- he, Brad Edwards
7 becomes a cooperating witness -- cooperating --
8 LEAH SAFFIAN: Confidential.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- confidential
10 informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them.
11 And in a sting operation obtains the list
12 from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo
13 Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil
14 suit.
15 In the -- Alfredo Rodriguez is
16 subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or
17 something weird, some guns or something, and goes to
18 trial. And there's a criminal complaint that the FBI
19 produced.
20 And in that criminal complaint, it says
21 that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but --
22 we'll call it the list for the purposes of this.
23 After Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are
24 held in Epstein's civil suit.
25 It's in the FBI's affidavit that the

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1 evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware
2 of it after the second deposition. It's in the
3 criminal complaint. The truth is different from
4 what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI
5 affidavit, and in Brad Edward's own statements on the
6 subject.
7 The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was
8 deposed twice, once in July and once in August. And
9 in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had
10 handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the
11 deposition.
12 And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're
13 going to come back for a second deposition. And the
14 second deposition takes place in August.
15 What this means is that Brad Edwards had
16 access to the list from sometime between July and
17 August, until when he actually called the FBI in
18 October. So we're talking six months or so.
19 Rothstein's firm was raided a few days
20 after the list went into the FBI's hands, and,
21 subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for
22 RICO, and I believe went to jail for 50 years.
23 As part of that RICO case, he admitted to,
24 on the record, and was -- I don't know whether he was
25 prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake

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1 evidence in Epstein's case.
2 In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was
3 going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waitt, was asked for
4 $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil
5 suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of
6 Epstein's civil suits. In fact, I wasn't even sure,
7 save for the first time I was mentioned was by
8 [DOJ REDACTION], I hadn't been -- I was basically nowhere.
9 And then Ted was called for this
10 $10 million and had been shown -- his people had been
11 shown evidence that included the list, the flight
12 logs and various other pieces of evidence.
13 Now, we're going to the prequel part of
14 this story, so then it can tie to how this starts.
15 In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution
16 agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement
17 or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened
18 there, and is -- goes to the court in 2008, when it's
19 accepted or whatever that is.
20 Villafana was the lead prosecutor or the
21 lead -- yes, in that case. And she, I think, was not
22 happy or with the outcome and utilized, at that time,
23 Brad Edwards, to file the CVRA case. [??]

24 Now, what is -- what I have managed to
25 understand from this is, within the OPR itself, there

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1 is evidence. There it says that Brad Edwards was the
2 only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to. So I
3 just want to preface that.
4 The reason why I know that she went behind
5 Acosta's back, and everything else to do this, is
6 because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the
7 revelation. What he says is that he'd never heard of
8 the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and
9 told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA
10 was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
11 So what I believe is that Villafana worked
12 with Brad Edwards, who she had also been -- he was
13 the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer
14 for some of the victims.
And he was also working for
15 Rothstein's firm, that was under RICO investigation
16 for that entire time, creating fake evidence in
17 Epstein's case.
18 And she had just filed hidden secret using
19 Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the -- this
20 CVRA case, that sole purpose was to overturn it. And
21 so when he approached her with the list, this was
22 part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence
23 to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or
24 a new case against Epstein.
25 Because Brad Edwards -- or I don't know it

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1 was Brad Edwards. Because Rothstein's firm asked my
2 then boyfriend for $10 million, to kick me out of
3 suits that I had no knowledge of at that time
4 whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story
5 was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt
6 was a multi-billionaire.
7 He had everything. He was way, way more
8 wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. And that is
9 the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of
10 that.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that list was
13 created -- so then the -- the masseuses that were on
14 that list, I have never heard of some of them. I --
15 not even from the civil suits that had come up since
16 I've seen it.
And this is me now knowing what's in
17 the list today.

18 And I believe that -- oh, Alfredo
19 Rodriguez, so there's a metamorphosis of this list.
20 So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes,
21 that's in the documents contemporaneously, is that
22 it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has.
23 It then morphs into something that Alfredo
24 took a book, that Alfredo took from Epstein's
25 computer, but there's no computer I know.
Certainly

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1 not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came
2 out as a book.

The men named by Giuffre as her perpetrators appear in Epstein’s “Black Book,” which is a Who’s Who of the Davos elite. I acquired the Black Book in 2012 and eventually shepherded it onto the Internet in 2015. But the prime mover of the Black Book surfacing was Alfredo Rodriquez, a former Epstein house manager. He purloined a copy of Epstein’s contacts, their addresses, and phone numbers before leaving Epstein’s employ in 2005. The Black Book also contains the names of numerous victims.

In 2009, Rodriquez’s grand plan was to hawk the Black Book to an attorney representing some of Epstein’s victims in civil lawsuits—his fee was $50,000. The attorney in question reported Rodriquez’s hijinks to the FBI, which snared Rodriquez and the Black Book in a sting. The FBI had previously interviewed Rodriquez, but he had said nary a word about the Black Book, so he was charged with federal obstruction of justice. Rodriguez received an 18-month sentence for that offense, the same sentence received by his former employer. Rodriguez, however, had to serve his sentence in a federal prison instead of a county jail.

The assistant US attorney prosecuting Rodriguez was Ann Marie Villafana, and she did not veer from Justice Department’s pattern of disingenuousness. Villafana told the judge in Rodriguez’s case that his failure to yield the Black Book was a lost opportunity for the government’s Epstein investigation. But she neglected to mention that the Justice Department didn’t even need the Black Book to prosecute Epstein for pedophilic offenses, because it already possessed a list of 32 Epstein victims.

After the FBI busted Rodriguez attempting to peddle the black book, one of the arresting agents stated in an affidavit that the Black Book had the “names and contact information of material witnesses…” Rodriguez had also circled several names in the Black Book, but the FBI affidavit does not delineate if the circled names are material witnesses. The circled names, however, include that of Ghislaine Maxwell and that of Sarah Kellen, two of Epstein’s purported pimps.

Rodriguez also circled the name of Alan Dershowitz, for whom Epstein had 11 phone numbers. In January of 2015, Giuffre named the former Harvard Law School professor and super-star lawyer as a perpetrator in an affidavit filed by her attorneys Brad Edwards and former federal judge Paul Cassell. In the affidavit, Giuffre stated that she had sex with Dershowitz “at least six times.” Dershowitz then mounted a scorched earth counteroffensive against Giuffre and her two attorneys. He proclaimed Giuffre was a liar of the first magnitude. Dershowitz also declared that Giuffre’s attorneys were deliberately lying and vowed that he wouldn’t “stop until they’re disbarred.” Edwards and Cassell sued Dershowitz for defamation.

-- The Jeffrey Epstein Cover Up: Pedophilia, Lies, and Ghislaine Maxwell, by Nick Bryant, November 30, 2021

3 And then it morphed into, at the civil
4 time -- my civil case, into a book that was taken
5 from my computer. And then it morphed into the
6 Southern District of New York as a combination list
7 of mine and Epstein's. That is a metamorphosis
8 through documents that you can trace.
9 TODD BLANCHE: So the -- in your mind, or
10 from what you just described, there is a list, it's
11 just manufactured. Meaning, have you seen the list,
12 even fake?
Like do you know --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I haven't seen it, but
14 what I --
15 TODD BLANCHE: So just -- I was confused
16 --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I guess my thing is
18 that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things
19 is -- in the paperwork and whatnot. And in -- so all
20 this story is basically controlled by five people.
21 There's four alleged victims that speak
22 about the list and the blackmail and the men and the
23 sex and whatnot -- And the lawyers and now the
24 prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of
25 New York for sure. But no one else.

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1 None of these stories carry from any of
2 the 44, alleged, original victims. They never ever
3 say that they were farmed out to anybody.
4 TODD BLANCHE: But the list itself --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- where is it?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list, but
8 Brad Edwards said that he created the list.

9 TODD BLANCHE: So that's what I was a
10 little confused about.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. He created a
12 list.
He -- so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez
13 produced, that became evidence, Exhibit 52 in my
14 trial, has markings all over it. Circles and dots
15 and whatnot.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And Brad Edwards says
18 that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of
19 all the people who were involved.
It includes Alan
20 Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked. I don't
21 remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don't --
22 I don't know. You'd have to look. I don't have it.
23 But I believe --
24 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what he did, he

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1 marked up -- I don't know who. Somebody marked up
2 that book of names, and I think all the names of the
3 people that they went for were originally selected
4 between two sources. One was this alleged book of
5 names, and one was also from the telephone logs that
6 were collected from the house in Palm Beach.

7 And just to finish it off, there is a
8 note -- I have some papers for you if you wanted
9 them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of
10 25 men that he got money off --

11 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the list
12 that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're
13 saying is that your -- your Exhibit 52 from your
14 trial, which is like a -- more of an address book, a
15 Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez -- Alfredo
16 Rodriguez, your understanding, is that somewhere
17 along the way he went through and kind of marked that
18 list to say --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know where
20 that book actually comes from.

21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that
23 book is. That book is some type of a compilation,
24 but what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with
25 type. So if you had -- you could have made a list.


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1 I could put --
2 TODD BLANCHE: But you're referring to
3 something that's been public for a long, if we're
4 thinking about the same thing. You're talking about
5 the -- you're right, it's like a bunch of different
6 types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of
7 it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly,
8 because there was people's addresses and whatnot on
9 it.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. That's what I'm
11 talking about.

12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it -- oh, perfect.
14 Yes. So you will find --
15 TODD BLANCHE: We're looking at Exhibit 52
16 now.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So you're
18 looking at Exhibit 52. So the one they produced,
19 they, the Southern District of New York actually
20 produced a book for me to see it as evidence, the
21 actual thing it was.
22 And I -- it has marks, it has tabs, it has
23 things, it has names I've never seen.
It had -- like
24 that list -- those -- that list was basically the
25 names that they choose to produce at trial.
Now, in
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1 Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents
2 where Rothstein -- his original scheme, Rothstein
3 Adler, was to place prostitutes. He had a bar, a
4 dance bar where he had girls. And I believe he would
5 use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's
6 offices, and then she might touch him or he might
7 touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for
8 that.

9 And those girls --now, I'm not saying that
10 those are the girls that came in Epstein's case
11 necessarily, but the
--

12 TODD BLANCHE: So -- but again, let's --
13 like, so we're separating the evidence that came in
14 at your trial and what you just talked about with
15 Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez.
16 During the time that you were with
17 Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were
18 around less frequently, you never observed or you
19 never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of
20 individuals who, you know, linked to certain
21 masseuses or --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no.
23 TODD BLANCHE: -- anything like that?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no. There
25 is no list. There is no -- I'm not aware of any
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:19 am

Part 6 of 6

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1 blackmail. I never heard that. I never saw it and I
2 never imagined it.

3 TODD BLANCHE: While we're on this topic,
4 just -- and again, I know we're jumping around and
5 we've been going on it for a while, so I apologize.
6 But there's recently been reports about a
7 birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I
8 think, for his 50th birthday in 2003.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's true.
10 TODD BLANCHE: What do you know about
11 that?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, my mum did a
13 birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when
14 I -- Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I
15 don't know what I'm going to do. And I said, well,
16 these are nice things, my mom did this book for my
17 dad. He said, I love that idea.
18 He said, can you help coordinate it? And
19 he organized who -- he called a lot of the people
20 himself. I coordinated the putting together of the
21 book. And some -- in some instances, I called people
22 that asked them to contribute --
23 TODD BLANCHE: And what was in the book?
24 Like what was the ask of the people you called?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's his 50th
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1 birthday, say anything you want on a piece of paper.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, nothing more
4 than that.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Right. I mean, it was an
6 obvious question. But you basically -- his folks
7 were invited to send something to you to celebrate
8 his birthday.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. To say happy
10 birthday with like, have a wonderful day or something
11 else. There was no -- there was no ask, but I wasn't
12 responsible for everybody in that book. And there
13 were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
14 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember some --
15 do you remember specific names of individuals who did
16 send letters or who did contribute?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's been so long. I
18 want to tell you, but I don't remember.

19 TODD BLANCHE: Do you --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly don't
21 remember.
22 TODD BLANCHE: The article talks about
23 several names, but including the folks -- the
24 article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember
25 President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a

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1 note?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you think the
4 articles -- well, do you remember seeing that book or
5 any portion of the letters in your discovery in
6 New York?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What do you remember
9 seeing?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there
11 was -- there were some portions of that book. But
12 what surprised me -- yeah. What surprised me was how
13 few there were, because I thought if you had those,
14 where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump.
15 TODD BLANCHE: In your discovery?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, in my discovery,
17 sorry. President Trump, there was nothing from
18 President Trump.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember -- but
20 separate and apart from your discovery, do you
21 remember one way or the other whether President Trump
22 submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not remember.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And the article that
25 references the letter talks about like a -- sounds

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1 like either a naked -- a picture of a naked woman or
2 something like that.
3 Do you have any recollection of that?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. But just --
5 no, I don't.

6 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember -- so what
7 do you remember seeing from your discovery around the
8 book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the
9 pages.
10 What do you remember.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there were
12 maybe -- so I just want to say about the discovery
13 that I had about -- maybe this is an exaggeration,
14 I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5
15 million page -- 5 million documents. It was a lot.
16 And of that giant document dump that I
17 received, I was only -- maybe as much as 30 to 35
18 percent, I was never able to access.
And this is
19 documented on -- at the court. And so I cannot say
20 that I saw everything, because I didn't.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want you to
23 know that. And I think that that was by design.
24 TODD BLANCHE: But you -- but you do
25 remember --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do remember some
2 pages.
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- seeing some pages of the
4 book?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, yes.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you remember what
7 pages you saw? Like from -- it was from -- who had
8 written those letters or no?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't
10 remember. I'm sorry.

11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. It's okay. Did you
12 -- did you and/or -- so the same questions we've
13 asked about some other individuals.
14 Did you have -- did you meet Bill Gates
15 over the years?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Because of your
18 relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That one -- well, I
20 met Mr. Gates -- I went to the TED conference. I
21 gave -- I went to the TED conference and I actually
22 spoke at the TED Conference, not the main stage, the
23 substage. And I also gave several TEDx's.
24 But -- and I met him there, but we were
25 friendly and I actually did meet him, because I knew

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1 his -- I don't know if he was chief of staff or
2 whoever, Boris.
And I met him, I think, once. I may
3 have met him actually at 71st Street. I may have
4 once. I don't remember if I met him there or at a
5 restaurant, I don't remember. And that would've been
6 because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with
7 Boris
and Boris -- that's all I remember.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
9 Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to
10 any of his houses?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if that -- that
12 friendship was after, you know, it was in the late
13 2000s. So if I met him -- like I said, I went to
14 Epstein's house maybe once or twice. Maybe I met him
15 there. I don't remember.

16 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I wouldn't know if
18 he had been on Epstein's plane.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And you weren't -- you
20 don't recall ever being on the plane with him flying
21 to the island or to anywhere?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
24 Reid Hoffman?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Who's that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Reid is a Silicon
3 Valley guy.

4 TODD BLANCHE: Is what?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Silicon Valley.
6 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you know him?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through my friends in
8 San Francisco.
I have a -- I used to have a very
9 close friend who is in San Francisco who's part of
10 that whole -- I have several, actually, or had.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So is that a relationship
12 you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Separate.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
15 Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
18 Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Or getting massages?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No.

22 TODD BLANCHE: So there was -- there's a
23 list of multiple masseuses that is floating around.
24 I think you had in your discovery. I think you were
25 just talking about that.
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1 That list, do you know how that list was
2 created?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. That -- all that
4 stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
5 TODD BLANCHE: As far -- as part of the
6 story you just told us?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Now, I'm not
8 saying it's all fake. I don't know what's real and
9 what's not. I don't --

10 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.



11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- know what name is
12 true. Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that
13 it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and
14 possibly fraudulent, I'm not -- I don't know. I
15 mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize are my
16 own, those are real.
17 But how it was actually ended up put
18 together and compiled and the purposes for it, for
19 which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I'm
20 just -- no.

21 TODD BLANCHE: Over the years when you
22 were serving as like the general manager, so the mid
23 '90s all the way into the 2000s. Did you or do you
24 know whether anyone maintained a list of all the
25 masseuses, like a running list?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there would've --
2 so there's two things -- well, three ways. So I know
3 that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that
4 he kept the names and numbers of all the people that
5 came to the house so that he could call.

6 So --because I only was with Epstein, even
7 at best, half the time. So when I was there, he had
8 like his chief of staff who could find whatever he
9 needed. And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on
10 somebody else, right? So it'd be that John Alessi or
11 whoever else.
12 So everybody -- whoever was traveling with
13 him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to
14 access information. So he had an assistant chief who
15 was his secretary, who would be the one that would
16 update his computer, you know, like everybody has an
17 address book
.

18 TODD BLANCHE: But was what you're
19 describing, which I'm not -- it makes sense. I'm
20 just -- was that a list of masseuses or a list of
21 people that might need to be contacted, which would,
22 necessarily, include a lot of masseuses?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's -- the latter.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And did you update that?
25 Like were you part of -- were you one of the people

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1 that would add names to it? Like if a masseuse came
2 and leaves and Mr. Epstein says yes, she was good,
3 would you be part -- like, how, how was the list kind
4 of maintained or who maintained it?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Typically, no --
6 TODD BLANCHE: No.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because there would
8 be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein
9 would not allow me to answer the telephone ever.
So
10 -- or maintain or keep any of his messages in the
11 office or at the house.
12 So typically that wouldn't be
, because I
13 wouldn't be the one. Could I say to you I never did
14 it? No, of course not
. Because that just seems
15 ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would
16 be no
.

17 TODD BLANCHE: During the 2007, '08, '09,
18 investigation -- the investigation out of the
19 Southern District of Florida. So you said that you
20 weren't contacted by law enforcement.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
22 TODD BLANCHE: After Mr. Epstein was
23 charged, did you have conversations with him about
24 the investigation?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked to me

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1 about it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did you --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I can't --
4 let's put it this way. If he did, I have no
5 recollection of it. I mean, I'm sure he must have
6 said, this is all --
whatever he said or it's nothing
7 or whatever.

8 I mean, I just don't have any -- I just
9 don't have any memory. I mean, I just -- I was with
10 Ted. My -- I was like gone. I mean, plus I just
11 didn't want to know either, I suppose.

12 TODD BLANCHE: So you don't know,
13 firsthand, why the U.S. Attorney in Florida made the
14 deal that he did? Meaning you weren't part of that
15 discussion along the way.
16 Like Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a
17 good deal or, you know, I -- something is happening
18 with the case that's very good.
19 You were -- to the extent you know
20 anything about it, it's just from what you've heard
21 or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that
22 right?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked about
24 the non-prosecution directly with me, no. But he did

25 --
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1 DAVID MARKUS: But it's still enforceable
2 as to her.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, he never said,
4 hey, do you -- are you happy with this deal like
5 that. But I understood. He never -- he never
6 enjoined me to the NPA, but I understand that he
7 included me, specifically
, and I'll tell you why.
8 DAVID MARKUS: Well, it's okay. You don't
9 need to get into that
.

10 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. Yeah. I'm not --
11 I don't want to talk about the legal -- the -- what's
12 on appeal. I'm just --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I -- well, I
14 wasn't.
15 TODD BLANCHE: The reason for my question,
16 just to be -- I'm not trying to hide something, but
17 there's a very strong belief that he got a very good
18 deal. And that he should -- she -- he should have
19 been sentenced to more time or got a different
20 sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution
21 agreement.
22 And I'm not asking you to opine on that,
23 but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about
24 that. But it sounds like he didn't.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That he got a good
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1 deal. No. I think actually -- well, his comments
2 that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal.
3 And I think that the, you know, when he fought it so
4 hard is because he didn't think he did.

5 TODD BLANCHE: When he was serving his
6 sentence, were you ever -- were you around during
7 that time, like when he was allowed to leave during
8 the day or travel during the day?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never called him. I
10 never saw him and I never went to the jail.

11 TODD BLANCHE: So I'm going to ask you
12 questions that you shouldn't read into them. I just
13 want to know whether you -- whether they resonate
14 with you.
15 Have you ever had any contact with any
16 representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the
17 Israeli intelligence agency.

18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Can you ask me that
19 again.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Has -- have you ever had
21 any contact with an individual that you understand to
22 be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not
24 deliberately.

25 TODD BLANCHE: Pardon me?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not deliberately.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you know --
3 we asked this -- we talked about this a little bit
4 earlier, but just to put a finer point on it. Did
5 you ever know that Mr. -- did you ever -- were you
6 ever told -- did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was
7 getting any money from any intelligence agency,
8 including Mossad?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I don't believe
10 so, but I wouldn't know. I mean, I would be very
11 surprised if he did. I don't think so. No.


The Mysterious Death of Robert Maxwell

...

November 5th, 1991. The Atlantic Ocean off the Canary Islands. The naked body of Robert Maxwell floats in the dark waters beside his yacht. The Lady Ghislaine, the media baron who built an empire on lies, who served multiple masters and intelligence, had met his end. But death, as we've learned, often it's just the changing of the guard. Eight days later at Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir delivers Maxwell's eulogy to a congregation that reads like a who's who of Israeli intelligence. Six service heads, politicians, spies, all gathered to honor the man who did more for Israel than we can explain today. And that's a quote. What they couldn't explain then was how Maxwell's death would birth something far more sinister. How his daughter Ghislaine would carry forward his methods. How a mysterious financier named Jeffrey Epstein, already lurking in Maxwell's London offices throughout the 1980s, would perfect the art of blackmail that Robert Maxwell had pioneered.

...

Robert Maxwell: The Prototype for Jeffrey Epstein

Before Jeffrey Epstein was Jeffrey Epstein, there was Robert Maxwell. And before Robert Maxwell was Robert Maxwell, he was Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch, born 1923 in what is now Ukraine. The parallels between Robert Maxwell and Epstein aren't just striking, they're instructive. Both men were chameleons. Both built their fortunes on other people's money. Both served Israeli intelligence at the bare minimum, among other state agencies, and both allegedly used sexual blackmail as their primary weapon.

Now the primary connection through Maxwell is Israeli military intelligence. Hence him being buried with military honors not having been in the military. So Maxwell comes before Epstein. He's the prototype, the proof of concept if you will. And the picture of Maxwell's true nature is drawn from declassified British intelligence files, and in the testimony of former Israeli operatives. He used more aliases than a cold war spy. John Ludvik, Jan Ludvik, Ivan Leslie du Maurier, Leslie Jones. He didn't settle on Robert Maxwell until he married Elisabeth Meynard in Paris on March 14th in 1945. So even this guy's identity was borrowed.

At 12 years old, he joined the Betar Movement, a Jewish Zionist organization. This wasn't summer camp. This was ideological training and the recruitment for a future asset. The establishment media really, they don't touch Maxwell, but those who wade into those waters want you to believe Maxwell was a legitimate businessman who might have had some intelligence connections. But according to declassified documents and insider testimony, it's exactly the opposite. He was an intelligence operation, masquerading as a businessman.

In 51, Maxwell took control of a German publishing house, Butterworth Springer, renaming it Pergamon Press. The mainstream media portrays this as a shrewd business acumen. But according to the sources we've reviewed, this wasn't Maxwell's deal at all. It was an MI6 intelligence operation funded by Sir Charles Hambro, director of the Bank of England and former head of special operations during World War II. Maxwell wasn't the buyer. He was the front man, the cutout, the face they put on a British intelligence operation to acquire scientific journals that had been published under the Third Reich.


Intelligence Operations and Blackmail

It gets a little more interesting. In 54, Maxwell is sent to Russia to publish and translate Russian scientific articles. British Foreign Office files made public in 2003 confirmed what intelligence agencies suspected all along, which was that Maxwell was funded by Russia and working for the KGB. Think about this. The same man who's working for a little bit for British MI6, Russian KGB, Israeli intelligence, likely a little bit of CIA, simultaneously. The KGB did later acknowledge Maxwell a high up Soviet agent, although they did question his loyalty. Fair enough. Because Maxwell's true allegiance wasn't to Britain or Russia, it was to Israel.

As early as 48, Maxwell played a major role in arming Zionist paramilitaries. He helped smuggle aircraft parts for Israel through the anti-Stalinist Czechoslovakian government. He didn't just support Israel's creation. He was one of the engineers of logistics. Victor Ostrovsky, the notorious MOSSAD defector who wrote by way of deception, confirmed Maxwell's deep MOSSAD ties. British intelligence agencies eventually described Maxwell as a Zionist that was loyal only to Israel and a prominent MOSSAD agent. That doesn't mean he didn't dabble with other intelligence agencies and he certainly had properties in other countries.

At this point, Maxwell's story becomes a template for Epstein. According to Ostrosvky and other sources, Israeli intelligence services satisfied Robert Maxwell's sexual appetite by supplying him with prostitutes. This wasn't just a perk of the job. It was leverage. Maxwell's hotel rooms were rigged with cameras, and Israeli intelligence acquired a small library of video footage of Maxwell in sexually compromising situations. So they weren't rewarding their asset. They were controlling him with blackmail.

Meanwhile, Maxwell's media empire became a vehicle for intelligence operations. In 1989, he partnered with the Soviets to take over pharmaceutical company teva. He acquired ownership of the Jerusalem Post, adding to his control of right-wing Daily Mirror publications. But the real money came from a darker source. According again to Victor Ostrovsky, this is a quote, "The MOSSAD financed many of its operations in Europe with money that was stolen from Maxwell's newspapers pension fund."


The Connection Between Maxwell and Epstein

Ostrovsky claims that MOSSAD gave the money to go ahead and buy the Mirror Group Publishing, and the moment they he got it, they took over all of the pension fund money. Weeks after Maxwell's death, authorities discovered a $560 million hole in the Mirror's pension fund.

Ostrovsky's allegations allegedly confirm Maxwell's most infamous betrayal involved Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu who exposed Israel's secret Dimona nuclear facilities to the world. So that's Vanunu and Dimona. Vanunu took his information to Maxwell's Mirror publications trusting the media baron to help him expose the truth. Instead, Maxwell called the Israelis. Vanunu was lured to Italy, drugged, abducted, secretly transported to Israel, and spent 18 years in prison, including over 11 years in solitary confinement. That's a playbook. Gain trust, exploit secrets, betray those who trust you, serve your handlers above all else.

By the 1980s, according to former MOSSAD agent, who we've previously mentioned in this series, Ari Ben-Menashe, Maxwell was brokering deals between the MOSSAD and the KGB that allowed Israelis to hide money from arm sales to Iran. This is part of the Iran Contra affair, but not the way you learned about it in school. The official story says America shipped arms to Iran to secure hostage releases. But according to Ben-Menashe, it was actually a deal for Israel to arm and train militants in Nicaragua with the cash laundered through Russia via Maxwell's networks.

And here's the key detail to this story. Throughout the 1980s, while Maxwell was orchestrating these international intelligence operations, a young financier named Jeffrey Epstein was a regular to Maxwell's London offices.
And we covered this. The one thing Epstein was good at, and it was probably 70% of his operation versus the smaller percentage of the weird gross sex trafficking stuff with underage girls, was doing all sorts of illegal money laundering and hiding money. And that was what he was good at. 80% of the people in his damn black book are probably people who committed financial crimes, not sex crimes. [LC: It can be both.] You notice nobody in the media talks about that.

Political Manipulation and Blackmail Techniques

The mainstream media wants you to believe Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell met in the 1990s after Robert Maxwell's death. But again, Ari Ben-Menashe tells a different story. He claims to have had several meetings with Jeffrey Epstein in Robert Maxwell's office all throughout the 80s, a full decade before the official narrative. Ari Ben-Menashe was explicit. Both Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell quote were agents for Israel unquote. ...


The Legacy of Robert Maxwell's Network

So the connections are consistent. Multiple sources, multiple testimonies, all pointing to the same conclusion. Epstein was being trained by established intelligence assets throughout the 80s. Ghislaine Maxwell was also being trained, including Sir Douglas Lease, who we mentioned. Adnan Khashoggi and Lease was a British arms dealer who again, according to sworn testimony from Steven Hoffenberg, allegedly trained Epstein in arms trafficking and money laundering.

Ari Ben-Menashe asserted Ghislaine accompanied her father so frequently that she was involved in his intelligence related activities to some extent. And think about this. While other young women her age were attending university or starting careers, Ghislaine Maxwell was allegedly learning intelligence tradecraft from Israel's most important assets.

Again, back to Hoffenberg testimony, who partnered with Epstein in the tower's financial Ponzi scheme, he later claimed that Epstein boasted of his ties to Israeli intelligence services. Crucially, Hoffenberg stated it was Ghislaine Maxwell who had made the introduction. Even after Robert Maxwell's death in 1991, the networks remained intact. Finnberg maintained ties with the Epstein Maxwell connected networks using quote the same lawyers that Robert Maxwell had used to take over the New York Daily News. When Hoffenberg later tried to buy the New York Post, the operation was way bigger than any one person. It was an infrastructure at this point, a system, a network designed to survive the death or imprisonment of any individual component.

Here's something that is a little terrifying. According to documents that are public, Epstein visited the Clinton White House 17 times between 93 and 95, often accompanied by attractive young women. These are the questions that won't be asked if Bill and Hillary Clinton answer a subpoena to Congress next week that's been sent out. This is where Congress isn't going to go, because those probably weren't social calls.

Epstein had a dramatically underreported relationship with the Clinton White House that pointed towards a major scandal of the Clinton era that has not been revealed or investigated. Many of these meetings, which we covered a couple episodes ago, were with Mark Middleton, who later died under the most ridiculously suspicious circumstances in May 2022. All right, I'll say it. He allegedly hung himself, and then shot himself twice in the chest with a shotgun. Middleton was probably embroiled in foreign espionage activities related to quote illegal fundraising efforts for Bill Clinton's 96 re-election campaign. One of Epstein's 1990s girlfriends, Francis Jardine, who lived in Epstein controlled apartments that used to house underage girls, accompanied him at two at least one of his visits to the Clinton White House. So Jeffrey Epstein is bringing young women, potentially underage women, into the White House while allegedly operating a sexual blackmail network for Israeli intelligence.
...

Jeffrey Epstein, the perfect student of Robert Maxwell's Academy of Blackmail

So now, August 15th, 2019, 5 days after Epstein's alleged suicide, The New York Post runs a cover story with the headline, The Post finds her, featuring an exclusive photo of Ghislaine Maxwell at an In-N-Out Burger in Los Angeles. The photo shows Maxwell looking relaxed, reading a book, apparently hiding in plain sight. And the message was clear. We found the elusive socialite when law enforcement couldn't. Except it was all theater. The Daily Mail discovered metadata showing the photo was taken by Meadowgate, a company owned by Leah Saffian, who is Ghislaine Maxwell's defense attorney and fixer. The photo was allegedly staged by Maxwell's own team.

The staging likely went deeper than anyone initially realized considering in the background of the photo is a movie poster for good boys. A comedy about the sex lives of pre-teens for Christ's sake. So when investigators checked with outfront, the company that manages bus stop advertising, they were told, "We do not have any records of this good boy's poster being posted there." So the poster was allegedly photoshopped into the image. So this isn't just alibi creation. It's psychological warfare. If that's true, the choice of movie poster about pre-teen sexuality in a stage photo of the alleged madam of a child sex trafficking ring wouldn't be a coincidence.




Maxwell was also photographed reading the book of honor, the secret lives and deaths of the CIA. As one commenter noted, this is just an FU to the public. The New York Post's role in this deception raises disturbing questions about media complicity in intelligence operations. Give me a break. I kind of get the feeling now that the CIA has been in every newsroom since Kennedy's head exploded in Daily Plaza. What if Israeli intelligence had reach into the New York Post's newsroom? What if they're blackmailing somebody there? Cuz it sure looks like that whole release is more of a way to either protect, or be sadistic. I don't know. They can't be that stupid. I digress.

-- https://survivorbb.rapeutation.com/viewtopic.php?f=227&t=4626&p=41440#p41440


12 TODD BLANCHE: We've talked about a lot of
13 names and I'm sure we've -- there's some that we
14 haven't covered. Are there any foreign nationals --
15 so right now we've talked about some British, the
16 Royal Family a little bit, and maybe high society
17 folks in Britain.
18 Were there any international businessmen
19 or politicians that had a very close relationship or
20 a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we
21 haven't already talked about?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Off the top of my,
23 head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
24 TODD BLANCHE: You said that Mr. Epstein
25 at some point in the mid to late '90s he started

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1 ttaking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take
2 any other drugs?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, he took
4 pills for his heart, I think, but I don't -- no
5 other -- no substances.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What -- do you know
7 anything about his heart condition? I know we talked
8 about this at, you know, 9:45 this morning. But do
9 you know anything about his heart condition, beyond
10 that you understood he had a heart condition that
11 affected his ability to have sex?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other than what he
13 told me, no. He never shared anything, but he did
14 take pills. I don't know what -- I don't know
15 anything above that. And like I said, he did the
16 testosterone, which made him mean.

17 TODD BLANCHE: And we're jumping around a
18 little bit.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Do you know someone
21 named Donald Barr?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
23 TODD BLANCHE: He is -- I can represent to
24 you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School,
25 which you mentioned earlier.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember any
3 conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr
4 wrote called Space Relations?

5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've never heard of
6 that.
7 TODD BLANCHE: About aliens and sex?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. No.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether --
10 well, have you ever met the former Attorney General
11 of the United States Bill Barr?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember whether
14 Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up
15 in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't recall any.

17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Did you have a
18 relationship or know -- I'm using "relationship," but
19 I appreciate you don't like that word.
20 Do you have -- did you know Mr. Epstein's
21 brother Mark Epstein?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
23 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know him?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through Jeffrey.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How would you describe your

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1 relationship; close, friendly?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My personal?
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not that close, but
5 friendly enough. I mean, you know.
6 TODD BLANCHE: How was Jeffrey Epstein's
7 relationship with his brother Mark from what you
8 observed?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, they were
10 brotherly, but I think that -- I don't know. I don't
11 know. They had periods when they were closer and
12 then when they weren't. I think sometimes Epstein
13 found his brother irritating.

14 TODD BLANCHE: And I think I know the
15 answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr,
16 but did you ever hear any -- from Mr. Epstein or
17 anybody else -- that Bill Barr had any role in
18 Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida, or
19 any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard that.
21 TODD BLANCHE: I think you said this in an
22 interview, but if I'm wrong forgive me. Do you have
23 a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide
24 or whether something else happened?
25 DAVID MARKUS: Can we take a break?

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Want to take a break?
2 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah, sure.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. We can take a break.
4 Yeah. Sure. Actually, it's a good time to take a
5 break anyway, because it's to be the last one of the
6 day.
7 SPENCER HORN: All right. So we're going
8 to take a break at -- it's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th.
9 (Off the record at 2:53 p.m.)
10 SPENCER HORN: We are continuing with the
11 recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now
12 3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
13 TODD BLANCHE: My colleagues alerted me to
14 a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to
15 ask you. One is -- sorry, I'm just going through my
16 notes.
17 Well, we talked few minutes ago about this
18 birthday book that there's press about. I understand
19 you don't remember anything with President Trump or a
20 lot about the book anyway.
21 Do you remember asking President Trump to
22 submit a letter for that?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember --
25 would you have been the one to do that or could

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1 somebody else -- would somebody else have done that?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did ask some people.
3 I don't remember Mr. Trump. I don't remember who I
4 did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself
5 directly.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it could have
8 happened that way, if it happened at all.

9 TODD BLANCHE: Where is that?
10 DIEGO PESTANA: You mentioned Ehud Barak.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
12 DIEGO PESTANA: What was his involvement?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This would've been in
14 the later 2000's. So I do not know how they met, but
15 I do know that they -- I don't know if friendly would
16 be the right word. I don't know that, but I know
17 that they saw each other and only because my
18 father -- you know, anything that touches Israel or
19 the state of Israel, I'm always interested in,
20 because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention
21 to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel.

22 TODD BLANCHE: When you said it was later
23 though --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ties meaning friends
25 and family relations.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Was the Prime Minis- was
2 Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the
3 nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- were you
6 ever with them together?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think I met -- I
8 have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he
9 was with Epstein or -- I don't remember. I just know
10 that I did see him and I'm trying -- struggling to
11 remember the context around it, but if I -- if -- I'm
12 sure it happened, but it must have been very brief.
13 Because I don't have any serious memory of it. Any
14 like, deep memory of that.

15 TODD BLANCHE: And maybe this is
16 obvious --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And maybe it comes
18 also because I've read it in the press. That may be
19 something that brought it to my memory. So that's
20 also -- I mean, I'm also -- I think the press has
21 been very contaminating, so I just -- it's hard
22 sometimes to separate those stories from your memory
23 sometimes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know a British
25 gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did she --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't know she was
4 a gymnast.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. I'm reading
6 something that says she was a gymnast, but please
7 don't assume that that's correct. This is based upon
8 my words.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Did she ever travel with
11 you and/or Mr. Epstein?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, yeah, she did
13 actually. I think that she might have been one of
14 Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
15 TODD BLANCHE: What -- again, I know we're
16 talking about time periods that are vast. What time
17 period would that have been? Like after you --
18 like since 2000?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say -- I
20 don't know, it could be the '90s -- could be the
21 '90s, I don't know. But I mean, listen, there are
22 people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I
23 just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in
24 '93 and '94. So I mean, he obviously was very busy.
25 LEAH SAFFIAN: Or she's lying.

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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or there's that.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did - someone named Mark
3 Middleton --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I remember him.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Who was that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was in the --
7 Mr. Clinton's administration -- President Clinton's
8 administration, I think.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And how do you -- do you
10 know him?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I met him and
12 that is -- I met him through Mr. Epstein.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And do you -- was he, from
14 what you observed, was he a friend or business
15 acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I only saw him
17 a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I
18 mean, he seemed friendly.
I don't know if I would
19 characterize -- I mean, only having seen him briefly,
20 I don't know how to characterize that.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he like
22 flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the
23 island? Do you know anything about that or their
24 relationship as it relates to that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- I don't

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1 have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the
2 island.
3 TODD BLANCHE: How about former US Senator
4 George Mitchell?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I do remember
6 George.
7 TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
8 him?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I traveled with him.
10 We went to -- the most memorable affair I went to --
11 well, I was friendly with his wife. Start with that,
12 with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung
13 out with her a few times. We had dinner and I was
14 just friendly, I would say separately with --
15 separately from her husband. I was friends with
16 Heather. I met Heather through her husband, but we
17 became friends.
18 TODD BLANCHE: You became friends with
19 Heather?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heather, yes.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Was Mr. Epstein friends
22 with, Mr. Mitchell?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Did they travel together
25 besides New York? Did they travel to the island or

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1 tto New Mexico?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
3 remember George ever at the island. But the most
4 memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Was to where?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: To Italy.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Ah, okay.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We went to Rome.
9 TODD BLANCHE: As the four of you. So
10 Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's my
12 recollection.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And what were you there
14 for?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the most
16 memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the
17 Vatican. It was extraordinary, the most
18 extraordinary thing was going to the archives and
19 holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking for
20 his divorce.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know the former
22 president of Colombia, Andres Pastrana?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Andres Pastrana

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1 in a pub in Dublin.
2 TODD BLANCHE: And did he travel with
3 Mr. Epstein, that you know?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
5 know if -- I don't know if he ever was ever on the
6 plane. I don't know if he ever -- I don't think he
7 ever came to the island. But, I went to places with
8 Andres Pastrana. One was to Colombia and Epstein
9 came to that, and the other was to Cuba and Epstein
10 and Andres Pastrana was -- I think was there.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And what were the purposes
12 of traveling to Colombia, then Cuba?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am a helicopter
14 pilot and Andres is a helicopter pilot. And we just
15 became friends and I flew a Blackhawk in Colombia.

16 TODD BLANCHE: And how about to Cuba?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My -- I have a friend
18 of mine who was the cigar distributor for Montecristo
19 maybe, I can't remember which cigar it was. And so
20 we went there, and he organized the trip and we met
21 Fidel Castro.
22 TODD BLANCHE: When was that,
23 approximately?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Had to be -- it had to
25 be 2002, 2003.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Something like that, I
3 think.
4 TODD BLANCHE: There's some more names
5 that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type
6 of questions, just -- but as far as a catchall,
7 there's been a tremendous amount of public
8 information about all kinds of names, including some
9 of the folks we talked about today and their
10 relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.
11 For any of the folks that we've talked
12 about today, did you observe them doing anything
13 improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or
14 with women who were -- or girls who were traveling or
15 at the residence that they were at or at the parties
16 that they were at?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did not ever, at any
18 time, see that.

19 TODD BLANCHE: And for any of the names
20 we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll
21 talk about some more, but for today, do you recall
22 having any conversations with anybody else, where
23 they reported to you that they had seen something
24 that one of these individuals had done, whether
25 someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody
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1 that observed something?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If anybody had ever
3 reported anything -- first of all, the answer to that
4 is no. And also, I just want to be clear that had
5 anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting
6 like that, I would've immediately done something.
7 And I never heard it. I never saw it. And no one
8 ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing
9 like that.

10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we
11 took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein
12 and his death. Oh, bless you. That's okay. Take
13 your time.
14 So Mr. Epstein and his death. So you were
15 not, obviously, at the MCC during that time, correct.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
17 DAVID MARKUS: Oh, thanks. I thought you
18 were giving it to him.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I've got something
20 that blew up my nose.
21 TODD BLANCHE: So just take some water.
22 It's okay, no problem.
23 You were not at the MCC during that time,
24 correct?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: So you're going to tell us
2 what you believe, but just to -- I just want to make
3 sure I understand, your basis for belief is kind of
4 what you've read and seen and your knowledge of
5 Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them -- knew
6 him, right?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And actually there's a
8 third component.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The answer to that is,
11 yes.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there's a third
14 component to that, which is having experienced now,
15 the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total
16 dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.

17 TODD BLANCHE: From BOP. From the Bureau
18 of Prisons.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Fair. Okay. So,
21 you know, I want to -- what I do want to be careful
22 about is -- you know, asking you to speculate,
23 because anybody can do that. And I don't think
24 that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give
25 us your kind of opinion.
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1 But, do you think that -- the third point
2 you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP,
3 there's been a lot of -- there's an OIG report,
4 there's SDNY investigation about that. Do you -- so
5 you think he was -- he did not die by suicide, given
6 all the things we just talked about.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not believe he
8 died by suicide, no.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And do you believe that --
10 do you have any speculation or view of who killed
11 him?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- no, I don't.

13 TODD BLANCHE: And I ask that because, if
14 you don't believe that there's any truth to the
15 allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a
16 list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him,
17 why would somebody kill him in prison?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In prison, where I am,
19 they will kill you or they will pay -- somebody can
20 pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of
21 commissary. That's about the going rate for a hit
22 with a lock today.

23 TODD BLANCHE: So that goes to the third
24 reason, which is kind of the mismanagement.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
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1 TODD BLANCHE: Or the shortfallings or
2 shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Which is a little bit
5 different than my -- from my question is, which is,
6 do you think there was somebody on the outside of
7 prison, so putting aside, what could happen on the
8 inside on the outside of prison, who would -- who
9 wanted him dead so badly that he would've, or she
10 would've, you know, caused him to be killed on the
11 inside?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that's -- I
13 don't see that. I think, is it possible? Of course
14 it's possible. But I don't know of any reason why,
15 and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of
16 this, I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that.
17 If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal
18 situation.

19 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So you're not -- you
20 don't have any reason firsthand knowledge or even
21 speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was --
22 if -- that he was killed to kind of silence him or to
23 keep him from going public about people he knew
24 about?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't, no, because I
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1 think that is just part of the story that's been
2 created that started back in 2008, '09.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's
4 the point. Like, I don't want -- I don't think
5 there's value in talking -- you know, there's been a
6 lot of -- there's a lot of information about what
7 happened, you know, at the MCC and -- but what is
8 important to me is whether, you know, if -- is the
9 idea that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing.
10 But if to the extent that folks believe that he was
11 murdered to keep him quiet or because he had
12 information on rich and powerful people, that's what
13 I -- do you have any reason to believe that that's
14 true?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not have any
16 reason to believe that. And I also think it's
17 ludicrous, because if that -- I also happen to think
18 if that is what they wanted, they would've had plenty
19 of opportunity when he wasn't in jail. And if they
20 were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he
21 would've been a very easy target.
22 TODD BLANCHE: In the time -- so we've
23 talked about a lot of time, all the way up through
24 2009, '10, and then your -- the time that after
25 Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you
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1 spoke with him?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Maybe 2016, 2017,
3 maybe 2016 -- 2015, 2016, 2017 in that area, I
4 believe.

5 TODD BLANCHE: And what -- when you're
6 thinking about that last time was that you had
7 talked -- been talking to him a lot, and then you
8 stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was
9 infrequent at that point?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really wasn't in
11 communication. The only communications I had with
12 him was in -- with regards to the civil suits, the
13 civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation
14 suit I found myself in. I needed help, I needed
15 information, and I didn't have what I needed.
16 And so that was really what it was -- that
17 what drove it, was me trying to get myself out of
18 this situation, which I -- ultimately led to where I
19 am today.

20 And so when -- when all that -- when
21 that -- I don't remember even if I stopped talking to
22 him before that, I think he was -- I thought he was
23 angry with me anyway. He didn't like what I did
, and
24 he -- I wasn't interested in what he had to say to
25 me, and --
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1 TODD BLANCHE: What did you think he was
2 angry with you about?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was angry
4 that I had even said that I had referred to her being
5 a liar. [LC: ???] He said I should have not said anything but.
6 TODD BLANCHE: When the civil suits that
7 were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Did your lawyers coordinate
10 with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like
11 that or anything?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think we
13 coordinated in -- I don't -- I'm not sure.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't want to
16 misspeak. I don't -- I -- there was some degree of
17 communication for sure. I just don't know the degree
18 that that took place. So definitely -- I mean, I was
19 definitely hoping for him to be more helpful. And I
20 was definitely, coordinating is not a good word,
21 because that sounds like I was trying to make --
22 align myself.
23 That's not where we were going here, but I
24 was definitely trying to get help. As in documents
25 or information that I could use to defend myself.

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1 That's a hundred percent true. And the degree to
2 which that took place, I'm not -- I don't recall.
3 There was definitely some of that, though. I don't
4 want to mislead you.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And we touched on this
6 earlier, but I just want to -- I don't think we
7 really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could
8 like. Going up through that time, you know, so in
9 the '16, '17, '18, up until the time he's arrested,
10 had your view or your understanding of what had
11 happened changed?
12 Meaning did you believe that in the late
13 '90s or early 2000s when he started, you know,
14 behaving much differently. Did you believe what you
15 were hearing about him at that point?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My views, I didn't
17 like the people he was with anyway. So I don't find
18 -- how do I say this? I don't like -- I like people
19 who my age or older, and I don't find the society of,
20 or the companionship of younger people who are young
21 people, I suppose, is really that enjoyable. So I
22 don't like the company that he chose to be with, and
23 so I just was -- I find it boring and fundamentally
24 uninteresting. That's probably the nicest way I can
25 say it.

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1 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So I think
2 what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking
3 about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think
4 that we -- it was very helpful and I appreciate you
5 trying to be as complete as you can.
6 I think tomorrow -- you've said a few
7 things today about materials that you brought. When
8 we're done, we will give you a few minutes with Mr.
9 Markus to -- if there's things that you want to show
10 him that you think we should see.
11 Like I said, I'm not asking you to
12 corroborate anything. If I was asking you to
13 corroborate something, I would tell you, but if
14 there's something you think that you don't think that
15 the government has seen or you think that is
16 important for me to see, let Mr. Markus know and he
17 can share it with me.
18 Tomorrow we'll certainly have some
19 follow-on questions when we all think about tonight.
20 And I think you will too. You know, we can all think
21 about stuff we've talked about. We covered a lot of
22 different areas. We are -- I do want to talk about
23 more about you.
24 So by design today we wanted to focus on
25 Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of, well,
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1 everything under the sun that we've gone through
2 today. I do think it's important when we all
3 evaluate what you've said today, and kind of your
4 story to understand, to also understand your -- why
5 you're here, right?
6 So you were indicted, you were charged,
7 you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way
8 that gives you an opportunity to say -- to kind of
9 say your piece or to say what you haven't said
10 before.

11 But also understanding that there was
12 people who took the witness stand and swore to tell
13 the truth and testified about you, and what you did,
14 and what they think you saw and what they heard you
15 say.
16 And I'm not -- I said to Mr. Markus, I'm
17 not trying to create a kind of a she said, she said
18 situation or he said, she said situation. But I do
19 want to hear from you about your conduct, because
20 it's important, I think, for when we evaluate what
21 you say and how you say it and your recollection of
22 things to also to talk about that.
23 So we're going to -- we'll do that
24 tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the
25 circumstances leading up to your arrest. There's a
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1 lot of, I think, misinformation or there's a lot of
2 information out there that -- I don't know whether
3 there's misinformation, but about the time from, you
4 know, 2019 up until the time that you were -- that
5 you were arrested.
6 And then, like I said, that'll take us
7 through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done. I'm
8 not -- I don't have a plan. I didn't know that I was
9 coming here until this week, okay? So I'm not --
10 there isn't like a -- we don't have like a schedule
11 of what happens next or what happens.
12 But the -- but that's not a negative
13 thing. I'm just saying that that's -- so you
14 shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything
15 other than, we don't have a next step yet, so.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May I say something?
17 TODD BLANCHE: Of course, yes.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just would like to
19 put out there that I also focused on how I think the
20 president got swept into some of this unnecessarily,
21 by the way. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I
22 certainly don't subscribe to all the -- all of
23 everything that I see.
24 But I do believe that there is animus in
25 some areas that may have contributed to how the use

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1 of the president to harm him, that I find deeply
2 offensive.
And whilst I can't obviously say
3 definitively that that is what it is, I would like to
4 show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and
5 do with that as you see fit if it needs to be
6 addressed. I've seen it, it struck me, and I would
7 like to give it to you.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: For what it's worth.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that seem
12 something that I can --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Of course. I don't
15 like that.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. That's fine.
17 That's great. Okay, so why don't we stop for today.
18 I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then,
19 see you in the morning.
20 SPENCER HORN: This will conclude the
21 recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th.
22 We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The
23 time is 3:34.
24 (Interview concluded at 3:34 p.m.)
25
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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION
2 I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify
3 that the provided audio recording media was
4 transcribed by me or reduced to typewriting under my
5 supervision, that said transcript is a true
6 transcription of the audio recording; that I am
7 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
8 of the parties to the action involved in these
9 proceedings; and, further, that I am not a relative
10 or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by
11 the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise
12 interested in the outcome of the action.
13
14 __________________________________________
CATHY M. AYOTTE, Official Transcriptionist
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Site Admin
 
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:31 am

Part 1 of 3

Page 216
United States Department of Justice
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 25, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General
Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy
Attorney General
Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent
Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell:
David Markus
Leah Saffian
Melissa Madrigal
Page 217
1 I N T E R V I E W
2 ***
3 SPENCER HORN: Good morning. It is
4 Friday, July 25th, the time is 9:24 a.m. My name is
5 Spencer R. Horn. I'm the Assistant Special Agent in
6 Charge of FBI New York. And we are here for a
7 recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
9 How are you?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Good. So the proffer
12 agreement we signed yesterday, I just -- there's a
13 place on it for us to all kind of initial. It's
14 exactly the same document and you'll see your
15 signature. If you can just initial right to the left
16 of -- right here.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Here?
18 TODD BLANCHE: Right there.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, it's okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Markus will --
21 DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- initial as well. Thank
23 you.
24 And just to kind of -- before we get
25 going, I'll just say that exactly the same folks that
Page 218
1 were here when we met yesterday are here today. So
2 there's no -- I'm not going to do formal
3 introductions, because it's exactly the same group of
4 folks.
5 So we're continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our
6 discussion of yesterday. And the same -- the same
7 kind of rules apply. If you -- we'll take breaks, if
8 you need to talk to Mr. Markus or your lawyers, no --
9 absolutely no problem. Just let me know. I'll try
10 to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if
11 there's anything that I say that's confusing,
12 definitely interrupt me.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will. Thank you.
14 TODD BLANCHE: So I think the easiest
15 thing to start with is, is there anything that we
16 talked about yesterday that -- we're going to go
17 through some more names. I think that we -- that's
18 one of the places that we -- that we interrupted,
19 just because there's a lot of names.
20 But aside from additional names, is there
21 anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that
22 we talked about yesterday or anything that you
23 thought maybe you remember more of or not?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some more names did
25 come to me in the night, and I did have some

Page 219
1 additional memories just for clarity. I believe I
2 said that I couldn't think of anybody who I may have
3 asked from Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that I
4 was -- the allegation at least is that I met [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre]
5 in Mar-a-Lago and so I felt that I needed to address
6 that. And I didn't want to leave that hanging
7 because that seems weird under the circumstances.
8 And also -- but I couldn't remember anyone
9 and -- maybe, you know, it's a long period of time.
10 So the issue is not that I'm trying to not say, but I
11 just don't -- I don't remember anybody that I would
12 have. But it's not impossible that I might have
13 asked someone from there.

14 TODD BLANCHE: I don't -- I don't know
15 exactly what you said yesterday, but I don't think
16 what you said yesterday is different than what you
17 just said. So, yes. There's --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I just wanted
19 to be -- I just didn't want to feel that I had said
20 no to something and that it -- and --
21 TODD BLANCHE: [DOJ REDACTION] [Virginia Giuffre] definitely had
22 has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that
23 you received a treatment of her -- from her at some
24 point, and that you recruited her to meet
25 Mr. Epstein.

Page 220
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know, affirmatively,
3 whether that's true or false, or do you just not have
4 a memory either way?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don't believe
6 it's true. But I know that I did go to spas and if I
7 met someone, I did ask if they're (indiscernible) --
8 so I don't -- in the realms of possibility, it could
9 have, but I have no memory of it.

10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I don't believe
12 that that it's how it went down, but I don't want
13 to --

14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to talk
15 about -- we talked a little bit yesterday about the
16 financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein,
17 kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word,
18 for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and
19 ending up at around $250,000 per year.
20 There's -- as you know, from your trial,
21 there's banking information that shows a ton of money
22 being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years.
23 And I think totaling something like
24 $30 million, something like this. What's -- what's
25 the -- why was that money sent to you? Like, what

Page 221
1 was that for?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
3 don't -- I dispute the characterization that the
4 money was sent to me.

5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So tell me what -- I
6 am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was
7 said at trial on that issue. So what -- what -- what
8 is the -- what do you dispute about that?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe -- I
10 don't have full recollection. I'm not even sure I
11 ever saw what they accused me of, but my belief is
12 that that money also contained money that was for a
13 helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and I --
14 was never mine. And --
15 DAVID MARKUS: In other words, money was
16 sent to you that you then used to purchase things
17 or...
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even
19 sure that I purchased it. So the accounts -- those
20 accounts would be controlled by his accountants.
21 And --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Even accounts in your name,
23 you're saying, or one of your entities?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I'm not even
25 sure I knew of all the entities. I'm not -- I

Page 222
1 don't -- it -- maybe I did, contemporaneously, but I
2 simply wouldn't know today.
So if there was an
3 entity, let's say account X, if I really set that up
4 myself or whether they said, we're doing this and the
5 money's coming or whatever. But in no substantive
6 way -- I can't think of the right word.
7 DAVID MARKUS: Did you have control
8 over --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had no control, is
10 what I'm saying.
11 TODD BLANCHE: So when -- when the
12 government -- when there was testimony or the
13 government admitted evidence that showed, for
14 example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to
15 you, okay, what you're saying is that that may --
16 that happened, but that the you there, wasn't money
17 that -- he wasn't giving you money.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to say
19 that for everything, because maybe there were
20 accounts that money was sent to me. But I can say
21 that I know -- like the helicopter, I can
22 definitively say. I'd have to look at all of them to
23 be accurate for you.
24 But to explain how or why I could be
25 receiving monies, and I certainly did. So I'm not

Page 223
1 disputing all of it.
2 TODD BLANCHE: But when you said -- let's
3 go back and look. Why would -- why did money have to
4 go into your accounts or account that was controlled
5 by others, but in your name to, like, purchase a
6 helicopter?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, that's a very good
8 question. I don't -- I'm not sure I know the answer
9 to that. I don't.

10 TODD BLANCHE: So let me ask this maybe a
11 different way that gets to the issue, right? So the
12 accusation by the government, based upon the evidence
13 they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions and
14 millions of dollars over the years.
15 And the reason why he paid you that is
16 because you were performing an extraordinary service
17 for him by recruiting young women, many of whom were
18 underage to -- so that he could sexually abuse them.
19 Okay. That's their -- that's their allegation.
20 Okay.
21 From what you said yesterday and from what
22 I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for
23 a lot in your life.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Your flights, where you

Page 224
1 stayed with him. I mean, he didn't expect you to
2 reimburse him along the way for food and, you know,
3 so he took care of you for many years.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is true.
5 TODD BLANCHE: On top of that, he actually
6 paid you a salary as we talked about $25,000 to
7 $250,000. What else did he give you? Or what
8 purchase -- like, was there a time when he gave you a
9 million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus? Or what --
10 what financial benefit did you receive from him,
11 besides what we've already talked about.
We don't
12 have to talk about what, you know, so --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I got it. I got it.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my goal, always,
16 was to become independent, independently, financially
17 secure and work for myself. I've never been one to
18 not work. And in that regard, over the course of my
19 friendship and my working relationship with Epstein,
20 I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him
21 everywhere, just to be freestanding.
22 And the -- in -- with that in mind, I
23 wanted to have my own businesses or my own money
24 coming in independent and separate from any salary
25 that I received from him.

Page 225
1 And I needed that for my self-esteem.
2 I've never been -- I mean, obviously salary and it
3 was a very generous one. Please, I'm not belittling
4 the sum of money, because it's huge, but I was
5 brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own,
6 you know.
7 The first time -- so I would either
8 propose businesses to him or he would actually
9 suggest why didn't I do something in the first deal
10 that we did, or the first business that we had or I
11 had and that he financed for me.
12 So he gave -- he loaned me all the money
13 to enable me to do this and then I reaped the
14 profits, which I don't remember now, because we
15 varied over the deals that we did, that I would give
16 him 50 percent or 25.
17 It was sort of -- it was random.

18 TODD BLANCHE: So --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can tell you
20 what it is, so we can compare it.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Go ahead.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was in Palm
23 Beach actually, and it was in real estate. And they
24 sold what was the grounds originally of an estate
25 called the Phipps Estate. And then they converted

Page 226
1 the land that came with that estate into houses. And
2 I did, I think, two or maybe -- I can't remember now,
3 but certainly one and maybe two, possibly three. I
4 don't think so. I think two, that then were flipped
5 and there was a profit.
6 So that would be an example of that. But
7 I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to
8 do that business transaction and then I reaped the
9 profits.

10 TODD BLANCHE: And so -- but when --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that's millions of
12 dollars.

13 TODD BLANCHE: -- when a financial
14 investigator like, the FBI looks at accounts, they
15 don't know kind of the conversations you're having.
16 They just see the money.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So in those cases, when
19 that happened, when he would -- when he financed that
20 with you, would he send money to you? So does that
21 explain some of the money? Like, I guess --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe -- I think
23 it does. I think, for instance, there were two
24 Gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and
25 Aston Martin. You can look it up, I think, if I'm

Page 227
1 right. That had the doors that would come up like
2 this --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There were only a very
5 limited number that were made. So I knew that we
6 could get those and flip them right within 24 hours,
7 for example.

8 Also my -- here's another example of
9 something that you guys wouldn't have known about is
10 I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67
11 banking license and became a broker for like a new
12 (inaudible). And then -- because I was day trading.
13 Everything I had I day traded with -- through an
14 account.
15 And I think I was lucky more than smart,
16 but I made quite a lot of money doing that.
And so
17 --
18 TODD BLANCHE: When was that? Like what
19 -- approximate time --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Again, that's in the
21 '90s again. I don't -- oh, wait. I think -- well,
22 you can find it, because it'll be my banking license,
23 right? That'll be something that you can look up,
24 probably.

25 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
Page 228
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what whatever that
2 is -- and I just don't remember when that is. I'm
3 sorry.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so for an example,
6 I was -- I was doing really, really, really well.
7 And so he was like, how do you do that?
Well, how
8 are you -- what are you -- why are you investing in,
9 I don't know, Apple when nobody liked Apple. This
10 is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft. I didn't
11 know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him.
12 But my family --
13 DAVID MARKUS: Don't charge her with
14 insider trading.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Please -- no. I'm not
16 trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness. Please, no.
17 I had no --
18 DAVID MARKUS: It was just a joke.

19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
20 TODD BLANCHE: It was a joke.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. No. All right.
22 But my -- going back to my family, my dad
23 had given me an account when I was 12 and I had
24 always an interest in business and finance, not --
25 not very sophisticated. I'm not suggesting that.

Page 229
1 And so I like to trade and so I did and I
2 did well. And so then I would tell him what I was
3 doing. Now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me
4 he matched me in some other accounts that he had.

5 Because he did a lot of -- he -- my observation, to
6 go back to what he did, I observed him personally and
7 have recollection -- personal recollection of him
8 trading this money, lots. Tens of millions, hundreds
9 of millions of dollars.
10 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that he was
11 trading for other people --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- or that was his own
14 money?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want also to clarify
16 something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner
17 was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time
18 period from when I met him in '91, right, all the way
19 until-- well, 'til, I don't know.
20 Because I wasn't that friendly with --
21 well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told
22 me that Wexner didn't want to be seen too much with
23 me, because of my family problems.
You know, whether
24 that was --
25 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the problems that

Page 230
1 your father's company had with --
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: -- embezzlement or
4 allegations of --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Yes. That's
6 what I'm talking about.
7 And now, actually today -- not
8 contemporaneously, but today I don't believe that
9 that's even true. I think it was used as a means to
10 not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It
11 was just a way to park me.

12 And I believe that now, because within the
13 discovery there was a lot of -- well, not a lot, but
14 there was some indications that he would actively
15 tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from
16 me, and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type.
17 That's in the discovery somewhere.
18 TODD BLANCHE: So -- okay. So the
19 government had evidence that, even as late as 2007,
20 he paid you a lot of money.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that? What
22 was the money?
23 TODD BLANCHE: Like several -- millions of
24 millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that for?

Page 231
1 Was it -- was that the helicopter?
2 TODD BLANCHE: That was -- that's my
3 question for you.

4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
5 TODD BLANCHE: I don't know.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So in 2007 --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that was
9 probably the helicopter. That could have been --
10 TODD BLANCHE: That was what?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That could have been
12 the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like
13 that, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't personally have
14 any memory of receiving a check from him for
15 $7 million. I just -- I just don't. But I would
16 have to -- I know I -- so the answer to your
17 question, to be precise --
18 DAVID MARKUS: You would remember if it
19 went into your pocket --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would remember if it
21 went -- I would --
he never paid me to -- for
22 services that you just described, $7 million, to --
23 for any nefarious reason.
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. I think I understand
25 what you've said about being on the payroll and
Page 232
1 helping -- him helping you with businesses, and
2 giving you a lot of life things along the way. You
3 travel with him, you ate with him. He's, you know,
4 but there is the -- these massive amounts of money,
5 one-time payments that I --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I don't -- you'd
7 have to trace that, right? So I don't believe that
8 came into my account or I had any control. I have no
9 memory of that. I have no -- no --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Well, but if there's
11 records that show it coming into your account, it
12 sounds like what you're saying is that not -- putting
13 aside your -- you have no memory of that money being
14 yours.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Like you didn't -- that
17 money is not somewhere --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wouldn't be
19 like, oh, yippee, let me go. I got $7 million. I'm
20 going to go buy myself a yacht.
No. Or I don't
21 know, something else or move it to some other -- no.
22 I don't think -- I don't think, if you
23 look -- you'll have to check, obviously you will. I
24 don't think you'll find that money moving in any --
25 to any account, either of mine or it shouldn't show,

Page 233
1 I don't believe anyway. As far as I recollect, it
2 wouldn't show me spending it.

3 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, that makes
6 sense. I mean, I think if -- I don't think there's
7 any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial,
8 that -- that that the money went in.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, $7 million in
10 when, what year?
11 TODD BLANCHE: Well, there's several
12 years; in 2007.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And?
14 TODD BLANCHE: 2002, there was $5 million
15 that you were paid in 2002.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well, I'd have
17 to -- I don't -- I don't remember. But -- okay. So
18 there's -- there would be another large sum, but it
19 wouldn't have come from him later. But it had
20 nothing to do --
21 TODD BLANCHE: The biggest one was in
22 1999. There's over $18 million. $18.3 million.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know what that
24 is.
25 TODD BLANCHE: So what -- but you --

Page 234
1 you're -- but what you're saying, it sounds like, and
2 if you don't know, we're going to -- we can move on.
3 But when we're talking about $18.3 million
4 in '99, $5 million in -- three years later in 2002,
5 $7.4 million in 2007. That -- those -- that money
6 adds up to around $30 million.
7 You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein.
8 Meaning, that's not money you received for your
9 benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe any of
11 that was my money. Now, I do -- I just -- like I
12 said, we did do these things --
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. I understand that.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: - - with the cars.
15 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as --
17 TODD BLANCHE: But --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if any of
19 that money, some of it -- if it moves, some of that
20 may have come from the car or a house that was sold
21 that I had an interest in with him. That's possible.
22 But I don't think this money is mine.

23 LEAH SAFFIAN: But also, the record should
24 reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine's name
25 was used, for example, Air Ghislaine. Her name was
Page 235
1 in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with
2 her. And if you pull signatures --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
4 LEAH SAFFIAN: -- there's no evidence for
5 that.
6 TODD BLANCHE: No. My -- what I'm trying
7 to just make sure I -- that I understand, is that the
8 idea that you were paid $30 million between '99 and
9 2007, in order to -- by Mr. Epstein to reward you for
10 recruiting young women. That is in your -- you're
11 saying that is categorically, completely false?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically
13 false, correct.


The Ongoing Epstein Story and Future Implications

Epstein also attended a political fundraiser for Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election campaign hosted by financier Ron Pearlman who's not, at this point, just connected to power, he's helping finance it. And in April 1995, Epstein's close friend Lynn Forester, later to become a Rothschild, wrote to President Bill Clinton, using her 15 seconds of access, to discuss Jeffrey Epstein and currency stabilization. "I neglected to talk to you about a topic near and dear to my heart. Currency stabilization," in the same conversation as Jeffrey Epstein being discussed with the president of the United States.

What kind of currency stabilization, like what is his expertise? He didn't graduate from college still. The picture that emerges from these documents, and these are White House foyer releases, it's not just Jeffrey Epstein as a lone predator. It's a Epstein as a potentially sophisticated intelligence asset trained by Robert Maxwell's network, deployed against American political figures, and granted extraordinary access to the highest levels of power. Ari Ben-Menashe was explicit about the mission, saying Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell "found a niche for themselves blackmailing American and other political figures for the Israelis." He elaborated, "it's hard for people to understand why Israel would want to get blackmail on American leaders. Israel is blackmailing their leaders in the United States. It was quite a thing. Quite a thing indeed. The systematic compromise of American leadership by a foreign intelligence service using sexual blackmail as a primary weapon. And becoming its most successful graduate. And he's got the entree conversation with all these powerful people, and with the reputation where he's known to be really good at money laundering, and hiding money, and tax evasion.

-- Was Jeffrey Epstein A Spy?, by NJ Criminal Podcast, Jul 22, 2025


14 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to just --
15 we went through several individuals yesterday and I
16 want to go through just a couple of more names and
17 ask if you -- if you know them. And if you do know
18 them, how you know them.
19 Do you know Elon Musk?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
21 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you meet
22 Mr. Musk?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him in -- I
24 don't remember the year, but it's going to be in
25 2010, '11, something like that, I think, if my memory

Page 236
1 serves.
2 And I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the
3 co-founder of Google. And Sergey had arranged for --
4 it was for his birthday.
5 And we were -- or a bunch of us, I don't
6 even remember how many we were, but not many of us.
7 Maybe -- I don't know. If I say 40, I
8 could be wrong. If it was 30 or 50, I don't
9 remember. I'm sorry.
10 Went to another friend's island. Somebody
11 called Mr. Pigozzi in the Caribbean and -- not with
12 Epstein, he was not there, to celebrate Sergey's
13 birthday. And we were there together for, I want to
14 say, three or four days, something like that in my
15 memory. And Mr. Musk was present for that.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And that was the first time
17 you met him, as far as you know?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: As far as I remember,
19 yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet -- did you
21 know his brother, Mr. Musk's brother?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if I've
23 ever met him. I know that he has a brother and I
24 don't think I met him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that time in --

Page 237
1 around 2010, on the island in the Caribbean for a
2 couple days, did you -- have you seen -- do you know
3 Mr. Musk beyond that time?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We met at -- I was at
5 the Oscars and we met at the Oscars.
6 TODD BLANCHE: What year was that, earlier
7 or later?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was post that
9 event, I believe.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
11 Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe they did.
13 And the only reason I say that is not from my memory,
14 but because I saw -- I think I saw -- my memory is
15 that in discovery, they were communicating on email.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So you have no personal
17 knowledge of that?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no --
19 TODD BLANCHE: It's just what you've --
20 what you've seen from the press or from discovery?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I believe his
22 brother as well, actually.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Excuse me?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mr. Musk's brother as
25 well.
But I don't -- my -- like I said, my memory is
Page 238
1 not -- it's not as good as I would like it to be.
2 And I just want to say that.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Do you -- you mentioned, I
4 think, yesterday in passing -- well, not in passing,
5 but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, only because he
9 was married to Kerry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Okay.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think I knew his
12 brother as well. What's -- he has a brother, right?
13 He's on TV. What's his name?
14 LEAH SAFFIAN: Chris.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Christopher.
16 LEAH SAFFIAN: Christopher Cuomo.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Chris.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Chris.
19 TODD BLANCHE: You mean the TV -- the
20 former TV anchor or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but I would say
24 just socially, not -- I'm not close friends or
25 anything, but because we -- I was friends with Kerry

Page 239
1 and I met him a few times and I certainly met his
2 brother as well a few times.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And the same questions that
4 I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether
5 Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or
6 Ms. Kennedy, your friend?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so.
8 TODD BLANCHE: And so you never -- you
9 don't recall any of those three individuals, like,
10 flying on Mr. Epstein's plane --
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
12 TODD BLANCHE: -- or visiting him in
13 Palm Beach or at the island?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
15 TODD BLANCHE: I think you mentioned
16 former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday. But
17 if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or no?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have met him, but I
19 don't know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him
20 only -- well, really I can't even probably
21 characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very
22 involved in the Ocean at Work, through the -- you
23 asked me yesterday about TerraMar.
24 And if I recall right, I met Mr. -- the
25 Secretary that way through the Ocean, but he wouldn't

Page 240
1 know who I am, I doubt. I don't think.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether --
3 well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
5 TODD BLANCHE: And does -- is that through
6 your own life or through Mr. Epstein?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My life.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
9 Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't believe so.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And so for the folks we
12 just talked about, so former Secretary of State John
13 Kerry, Ted Kennedy, did -- you don't know whether
14 Mr. Epstein knew them, so I take that to mean you
15 have no recollection of them flying on his planes--
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh God, no.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh. But Bobby Kennedy
19 knew him. Bobby, the health --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Say that again
21 about Bobby Kennedy.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bobby knew
23 Mr. Epstein.
24 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know that?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because we went on a

Page 241
1 trip together. Was -- we went to -- dinosaur bone
2 hunting in the Dakotas
.
3 TODD BLANCHE: When was that, you know,
4 approximately? I'm not looking for an exact date,
5 but when was that?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was early -- that
7 was in the early -- well, let me back up. I knew
8 Bobby's wife, Mary, pretty well, actually. And
9 before he met her.

10 TODD BLANCHE: And just to help us, I know
11 we're talking about a wide span of time, but what are
12 you -- when are you talking about that you knew
13 Mr. Kennedy's wife before they were married.
14 So when are talking about the --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- in 19 -- all
16 right. I guess, let's get my head straight. In --
17 TODD BLANCHE: Well, would this have been
18 before you met Mr. Epstein --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- or after? Okay. So --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him before I
22 met.
23 TODD BLANCHE: So we're talking about the
24 1980s.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. Yes. Thank

Page 242
1 you.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The '80s.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we're talking
5 about the 1980s. And then --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- I was the -- I
7 had a very, very longstanding boyfriend and he had --
8 his brother was dating Mary at the time, and we were
9 all very good friends.
10 TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Epstein -- did
11 Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- I don't
13 think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone
14 says everything happened through me. That's just not
15 true. I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he
16 had friends from London, and those are very -- they
17 were what the people would call "fancy."

18 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They were fancy
20 people. And -- but he had the same types of
21 relationships before I met him in America. So when I
22 met him, he was already, you know, Wexner and he had
23 Henry and he had -- he was --I don't know if then he
24 was at the -- in the Council of Foreign Relations,
25 but he was friends with Ace and, you know, like he

Page 243
1 was -- he was well established.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn't need me.
4 And he was, you know, his -- Eva was, you know, major
5 model. So he had all these modeling connections and
6 friends in that business, long before I met him.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And so the trip that you
8 went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that
9 in the '90s and 2000s when --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was in
11 the -- it would've been in the -- I want to say '93,
12 '94.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So a very long time
14 ago.
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A very, very long time
16 ago.
17 TODD BLANCHE: A few years into the --
18 your relationship -- a few years into the time that
19 you knew Mr. Epstein?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, I don't
21 want to hold myself to the dates because I really --
22 TODD BLANCHE: No, no. I'm not holding
23 you to dates. I think --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I really don't

25 --
Page 244
1 TODD BLANCHE: I've said that a lot,
2 because I appreciate we're talking about the '80s and
3 '90s and even the 2000s.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want you to
5 know, I haven't had any -- I don't have anything to
6 review, so I haven't had any ability to -- the short
7 of my legal material, obviously, which you can -- you
8 know I have, because I came with a box worth
, but
9 short of that, I have nothing with which to
10 refresh -- or very limited stuff, I should say, I
11 don't want to say nothing -- to refresh my mind.
12 TODD BLANCHE: I understand that. Do you
13 have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy -- of there
14 being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and
15 masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked
16 about?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
18 inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether he
20 ever got a massage from one of the masseuses? Do you
21 know either way?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
23 TODD BLANCHE: But not something you
24 remember?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, absolutely

Page 245
1 not.
2 I mean, he -- well, I mean, yesterday, if
3 I didn't make it clear, I will reiterate it. I
4 never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate
5 with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate
6 habits.

7 Now, I'm not -- I'm not going to say hands
8 or -- I mean, that to me is not inappropriate. Now,
9 somebody's inappropriate and mine may be different,
10 but --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- we're not talking
13 about anything that's -- resembles the accusations
14 that we've discussed here. So that would be an -- a
15 flat no to any man.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Did your or Mr. Epstein's
17 relationship with Mr. -- with Bobby Kennedy continue
18 into the 2000s, as far as you know?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Um --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, mine, yes. I
22 don't --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Your's -- with you. Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With me, for sure.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether

Page 246
1 Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continued
2 to have relationships into the 2000s?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no personal
4 knowledge of that. I mean, I would -- because --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no personal knowledge
6 is fine.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Another thing is that
8 everyone puts us together like a monolith.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He literally had a
11 separate life from me. I literally had a separate
12 life from him.
Now, did they say? Well, of course
13 they did. I'm not-- that's -- I'm not crazy.
14 But he kept a lot to himself and he didn't
15 like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least
16 not with me.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Epstein didn't share,
18 you're saying?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not with me, no.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- do you know
21 somebody named Cheryl Mills?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Used to work in the White
24 House as a lawyer?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do. Yes.

Page 247
1 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know Ms. Mills?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Ms. Mills
3 through President Clinton.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember a --
5 generally, the timeframe that you -- you met her?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, actually. Hang
7 on. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to remember -- I'm
8 trying to get my dates right.
9 DAVID MARKUS: Approximately.
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay. I can't
11 get my dates right. But it's something you probably
12 can -- going to be in the early 2000s.

13 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what I don't
15 recall --
16 TODD BLANCHE: So --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2002.
18 I'm going to say 2002, 2003.
19 TODD BLANCHE: So it was after President
20 Clinton left office?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And so it was in the 2000s.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely.
24 TODD BLANCHE: And how -- what -- how did
25 you meet her? What were the circumstances under

Page 248
1 which you met Ms. Mills?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went on a trip with
3 the President to South America.
4 TODD BLANCHE: With which president?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
6 President Clinton.

7 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. Just, you
8 know --
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
10 TODD BLANCHE: -- just wanted -- it was --
11 I just wanted to make sure it was clear.
12 Okay. So you went on a trip to -- to
13 where?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Latin America.
15 TODD BLANCHE: And who -- and so Ms. Mills
16 was on that trip?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She was.
18 TODD BLANCHE: And President Clinton was
19 on that trip?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Who else was on that trip?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Doug Band.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Who worked with President
24 Clinton?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

Page 249
1 TODD BLANCHE: And was Mr. Epstein?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
3 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
4 that trip?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the President
6 had -- I don't know. I mean, I -- the President met
7 with -- I can't even remember every -- all the, I
8 know, presidents and we were in --
9 TODD BLANCHE: Was this part of President
10 Clinton's work after he left office with the -- with
11 his foundation? Or was -- meaning what --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think the
13 foundation, when did the --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- was it something for him
15 or was it --
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When did the -- I
17 don't remember when the Clinton Global Initiative
18 started.
19 So if you date me -- if you give me that
20 date, I can tell you if it was pre or post. Because
21 without that, I can't pin the reason.
22 DAVID MARKUS: Do you remember what it was
23 for or not?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I don't recall.
25 DAVID MARKUS: Okay.

Page 250
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I don't --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's -- don't over
3 think or under think the reason for my questions.
4 I don't -- I don't have any idea why you
5 went on that trip, so I don't know an answer that I'm
6 getting from you.

7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I'm just trying to
8 be as accurate as possible and give you the
9 information that you seek.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Why would you -- do you
11 remember why you were invited to go? Like were you
12 -- were you friends with somebody? What was your
13 role going on that trip?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn't have a role.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So do you remember why --
16 do you remember who invited you to go?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If -- probably
18 Doug Band.
19 TODD BLANCHE: And how did you know Doug?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Doug and --
21 again, back with Philip Levine.

22 TODD BLANCHE: Got it. And do you know
23 whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
25 TODD BLANCHE: Doug.

Page 251
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't know. I
2 mean, nothing. He -- I don't believe there was any
3 relationship, other than I helped -- well, without
4 me, I don't think there would've been those flights,
5 because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide
6 the plane
for -- well, certainly I remember the one
7 to Africa, of course, that big trip.
8 And I thought it was an honor and a
9 privilege to be part of something so amazing and to
10 have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I
11 found truly extraordinary.
12 And please, I don't mean it in any other
13 way, other than as a former fantastic ex-president.
14 I don't --
15 TODD BLANCHE: So I was asking around the
16 question, but I'll just ask it: like, [b][size=110]were you
17 basically asked to go because you were kind of
18 responsible for the plane?

19 Responsible is the wrong word. They use
20 you -- they were able to use you to make sure that
21 they could -- you helped them get Mr. Epstein's plane
22 for the trip?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't even know
24 if when I was on that -- in fact, I think -- I think,
25 that trip, I'm not even sure that Epstein had met the

Page 252
1 President.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.

3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think this is -- but
4 if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip
5 happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even --
6 not that they'd never met, because Epstein had gone
7 to the White House, but they had not met.
8 I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then
9 because they'd never met and it would be weird.
But
10 they met because of me and the plane was because of
11 me. But that trip was the first, I think, the first
12 trip I took with the ex-president. And I don't
13 believe Epstein and he had met
.

14 And we're talking a time period when I was
15 trying to --

GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I don't know. I mean, nothing. He -- I don't believe there was any relationship, other than I helped -- well, without me, I don't think there would've been those flights, because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for -- well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip....

I think this is -- but if I'm right, and I think I am, I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even -- not that they'd never met, because Epstein had gone to the White House, but they had not met. I'd never asked Epstein for the plane then because they'd never met and it would be weird.


16 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- leave. Not very
18 successfully obviously, but I was branching out on my
19 own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and
20 trying to -- all kinds of businesses that I was into.
21 I was trying to start the first telehealth
22 medicine with the Cleveland Clinic.
I mean, I'm not
23 going to bore you, because I don't think that's what
24 you guys are interested in, but those were the sorts
25 of things that I was looking for him to finance, so

Page 253
1 that I could stop being, you know, a general manager
2 of a hotel.

3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so did you take
4 other trips with some or all of those individuals,
5 kind of without Mr. Epstein in later years? Like,
6 you said that was the first time that you had kind of
7 been on something like that and it was an honor and
8 you were spending time with former President Clinton
9 and others.
10 Were there other -- over the years, did
11 you do that more than once?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: We'll talk about those.
14 Like multiple times, like too many to count or there
15 three or four times. Like how many times?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A lot. A lot. I went
17 on a lot of trips.
Now I don't recall all of them.

18 Not because I'm trying to be evasive or anything, but
19 I just don't remember them all.
20 And after a while, you know, in the
21 incredible job that you have, all of you, that when
22 you're so high pressured and you're spending so much
23 time with extraordinary people like you do with
24 President Trump, it -- it can blur. It just does.
25 And those few things that stand out,
Page 254
1 because at the end it's all just extraordinary as
2 cars and sirens and president. It's like, whoa,
3 okay.
4 TODD BLANCHE: So, I understand, but
5 talk -- so don't give me spec- --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
7 TODD BLANCHE: -- I understand you can't
8 give specific numbers. What -- describe more about
9 kind of your, that part of your life and your
10 relationship. I'm using "relationship." You don't
11 like relationships.
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right, right.
13 TODD BLANCHE: And your -- sorry. And
14 your --
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My employer.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Just describe your --
17 what you were doing with those individuals. So when
18 I say "those individuals," I'm talking about former
19 President Clinton, Doug, other folks that worked with
20 him.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All of them. Yes.
22 There were loads of them. And just all of them, you
23 know the team, I don't need to give you all the
24 names. You have them at your fingertips and I can
25 confirm.
If you give me names, I'll say yes, because

Page 255
1 they're not all going to pop into my head, so.
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:33 am

Part 2 of 4

2 TODD BLANCHE: Right.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I started
4 spending a lot of time. I don't want to characterize
5 that, but I started spending time with the former
6 President and with Doug and his team.
7 And then it -- I had no purpose, really,
8 other than I had -- I obviously offered something, I
9 don't know, ideas of -- I don't know.
10 Anyway. And he started to travel. I
11 don't remember if the first trip was Africa or how it
12 went, but at some point, I think there was actually
13 two trips, but I'm not sure. So there was to Europe
14 and then to Africa, I think maybe it was all one
15 trip.

16 And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he
17 didn't want to go on the trip and he was going
18 somewhere else and he just left. And I was like,
19 well, okay. And so I ended up doing the whole trip
20 without Mr. Epstein or his plane.


So then what happens next, 81 to 86, is also crucial to understanding how Epstein became Jeffrey Epstein. Very murky activities during this time. His main company during this period was an intercontinental assets group incorporated in 1981. His claim is that he worked as what he called a bounty hunter for the rich and powerful, helping recover money looted by African dictators, or alternatively helping the rich and powerful hide their stolen money. According to Steven Hoffenberg's sworn testimony, something far more significant was happening during this period. Epstein was being trained in arms trafficking and money laundering by Adnan Khasshoggi and Sir Douglas Lease. Now let me repeat that. Arms trafficking and money laundering training by international arms dealers with documented intelligence connections. Adnan Khasshoggi was a Saudi arms dealer who, according to multiple sources, was allegedly on the payroll of Israel's MOSSAD, close to the intelligence apparatus of the Saudis and the United States. Douglas Lease was a British arms dealer with intelligence connections who would later be involved in the Al Yamama arms deal with Saudi Arabia, a deal so corrupt that investigations into it were shut down by Tony Blair and Prince Andrew. Yes, the same Prince Andrew who would later become Epstein's close friend and alleged client.

-- Was Jeffrey Epstein A Spy?, by NJ Criminal Podcast, Jul 22, 2025

After Epstein’s 2019 arrest, a former friend of Epstein’s, Jesse Kornbluth, stated that Epstein had claimed to be a "bounty hunter" for the rich and powerful:
When we met in 1986, Epstein’s double identity intrigued me – he said he didn’t just manage money for clients with mega-fortunes, he was also a high-level bounty hunter. Sometimes, he told me, he worked for governments to recover money looted by African dictators. Other times those dictators hired him to help them hide their stolen money.44

Actress Anna Obregón later stated that she had hired Epstein, who mentioned his company Intercontinental Assets Group, to help her father, Madrid-based real estate magnate Antonio García Férnandez. García Férnandez had been one of several powerful Spanish individuals, which included members of the Spanish royal family, who had invested in Drysdale Government Securities, which collapsed due to fraud in 1982. Epstein had been hired by Obregón to "recover" money from the Drysdale collapse on behalf of her father, according to James Patterson’s book Filthy Rich.45

-- One Nation Under Blackmail: The Sordid Union Between Intelligence and Crime that Gave Rise to JeffreyEpstein, by Whitney Webb

Hello, my name is Shante Davies, and I'm here before you today as a survivor, a survivor of decades of pain, trauma, and betrayal at the hands of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, and the people who enabled them, and a government that for far too long refused to help.

In 2002, I was living in California, a young woman with high aspirations of becoming an actress. I was already beginning to make a name for myself in the industry. A person I trusted, someone I thought was a friend, invited me to meet a powerful woman who could help advance my career. That woman happened to be Ghislaine Maxwell. I was asked to give her a massage, though I had almost no experience. And when I did, she praised me. and promised introductions to someone enormously powerful, someone who could change the course of my life. And that man was Jeffrey Epstein. At first, I was an excited young woman on top of the world. Epstein flew me to his private island. He listened to my dreams, and promised to help.

But his promises came with a catch. The abuse began. He told me to keep it secret. He manipulated me with quid pro quo. I did not consent to it, but I felt I had no one to turn to. He was too powerful. I was just one of the many young women trapped in his orbit.

I was even taken on a trip to Africa with former President Bill Clinton and other notable figures. In those moments, I realized how powerless I was. If I spoke out, who would believe me, who would protect me? Epstein himself was [friends with] the most powerful leaders of our country and the world. He abused not only me, but countless others, and everyone seemed to look away. The truth is Epstein had a free pass. He bragged about his powerful friends, including our current President Donald Trump. It was his biggest brag actually.

-- Jeffrey Epstein victims and lawmakers hold press conference, USA TODAY, streamed live on Sep 3, 2025


21 TODD BLANCHE: And when you were traveling
22 with them, what were the purposes of the trips? Like
23 is this one --
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think these were
25 all -- I think actually it was the AIDS, was one of

Page 256
1 the primary ones, for his AIDS Foundation, when he
2 was working to do that. And there were always a
3 humanitarian side to the trips.
4 And we went to Egypt and to, there was --
5 oh, yeah.
6 TODD BLANCHE: So there -- so it sounds
7 like you're describing one -- right now, one trip
8 with lots of stops.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It could be, but I
10 have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I
11 can't remember.


Were there other -- over the years, did you do that more than once?

GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.

TODD BLANCHE: We'll talk about those. Like multiple times, like too many to count or there three or four times. Like how many times?

GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A lot. A lot. I went on a lot of trips.


12 TODD BLANCHE: When you -- when you went
13 on these --
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went to London.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Went to London. Okay.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if that's
17 the same trip.
18 TODD BLANCHE: When you went on these
19 trips, that -- were you always on Mr. Epstein's
20 plane?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or did you sometimes
23 accompany them on a different plane?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. Yes.
25 TODD BLANCHE: How many were on

Page 257
1 Mr. Epstein's plane? Again, I'm not holding you to
2 exact, but --
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was a full, that
4 was packed. Because it was a lot of secret service.
5 It took all the Secret Service as well.
6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was whatever the
8 detail is for Secret Service, it's a lot.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And on how many occasions,
10 besides the trip you just described, were there other
11 times when they used -- when President Clinton and
12 the folks he was with, used Mr. Epstein's plane?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was --
14 there was twice, maybe. There was that. But it will
15 reflect on the logs. There won't be anything that's
16 not on the logs that you have already.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Were you, by the way,
18 responsible for the logs in any way?
Like, you've
19 seen the logs and they're public and you have them in
20 discovery.
21 But over the years when you were working
22 with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the
23 logs?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was, not. No,
25 never. The pilots -- the logbook was their personal

Page 258
1 logbook.
2 I never even saw them have it. I never
3 saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set
4 of logs, the -- the flight manifests. And I never
5 saw those either. I was never -- I was never
6 allowed, I suppose. Because he didn't want me to
7 see.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- so do you
9 know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship
10 with -- with President Clinton, different from the
11 what you just described? So different than being
12 with him, with respect to his foundation or something
13 like this?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
15 TODD BLANCHE: When's the last time that
16 you went on a trip or saw President Clinton?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in -- was late
18 2000 and, I don't know, '16, '17, '18, something
19 in -- it was in Los Angeles.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
21 that meeting?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was hosting
23 something or he was at an event and I was in L.A. and
24 I had dinner with him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Had -- did you ever meet

Page 259
1 Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
3 TODD BLANCHE: When did you meet her?
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say --
5 again, please don't hold me to it, but I want to say
6 that it was on a flight that came from the island
7 from -- not from the island, from the Nantucket or --
8 or Martha's Vineyard back to New York, is what I
9 think. I might be wrong.
10 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So some -- an East
11 Coast island, like Nantucket --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: -- Or something like this?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. No, -- the
15 Clint- -- the ex-president never came to the island.
16 TODD BLANCHE: And did you -- is that the
17 only time that you met Hillary Clinton?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I went to the
19 house in Chappaqua a few times.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And why did you go to the
21 house?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was invited.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Just to see
24 President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both or --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I mean, as a

Page 260
1 friend, not for -- I don't -- there was no -- I don't
2 remember any reason, either was somehow I
3 communicated that was in coming, driving back past
4 Chappaqua or if they were home and stop in.
5 And it's -- I know it sounds a little
6 flippant, but it could -- it could have even
7 something as --
8 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
9 Mr. Epstein had -- knew or had any sort of visit
10 dealings or -- associated with Hillary Clinton?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever see
13 them together?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- do you know whether
16 Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with
17 the Clintons?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would -- well, I'm
19 not sure I can. I'm not sure how to quite -- I don't
20 know the answer to that strictly, because, I was -- I
21 was part of the beginning process of the Clinton
22 Global Initiative.

23 And that was something that I helped with
24 and that was me, and Epstein may have helped me help
25 them. And in that context, he may well have involved

Page 261
1 himself, but only in the context of something that I
2 was trying to do.
3 TODD BLANCHE: So when you say "involved
4 himself," meaning like, give money to the Clinton
5 Global Initiative or something like this?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so there's that.
7 I think he did do that. And that, I believe, the
8 money that he may have given could have been
9 independent of me. But I think it's just easier if I
10 just tell you how it happened, rather than --
11 otherwise it sounds all odd and funky. I went to
12 Davos with a former president and I -- have you been
13 to Davos?
14 TODD BLANCHE: In what?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Have you been to
16 Davos?
17 TODD BLANCHE: I have not.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, you know,
19 it's a -- you know what it is, right? Okay. So --
20 and I was -- I thought the former president should
21 have his own Davos, because it would be -- and they
22 had -- it turned out, that they had been thinking
23 about it anyway.
24 And so we were talking about it and, you
25 know, it's a very heavy lift to get something like

Page 262
1 that to go. And I was friendly with one of the
2 people who had -- I don't know if he was at the
3 beginning of Davos or -- but he was running Davos.

4 It was just -- I don't know, hard to
5 describe his actual role at Davos and had
6 conversations with him about what did he think, you
7 know? Oh, just because I was having dinner with him
8 about if Clinton could get something like that to go,
9 what was his thoughts?
10 And he was very, very enthusiastic. I
11 mean, he was like, that's just an incredible idea.
12 So I put them together.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Who -- what's that person's
14 name? Do you remember?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I knew you were going
16 to ask me.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can -- I can --
19 TODD BLANCHE: Just -- you said -- I
20 didn't know if you knew his -- if you remember his
21 name.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do know. I do, but
23 I just --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Can't remember his name.
25 Okay.

Page 263
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It will come to me.
2 It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these
3 things, like, surface from -- like in the middle of
4 the night, I was scribbling names --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that I couldn't
7 remember from yesterday.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But his name will come
10 to me, and if not, we can find it.
11 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you -- when
12 the -- just still stay -- staying on your
13 relationship with -- sorry, the -- your association
14 with the Clintons.
15 You were part of the ramp up or the
16 startup of the Clinton Global Initiative --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was.
18 TODD BLANCHE: -- and helping them in
19 supporting that effort.
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- I would say very
21 central to that, yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: And Mr. Epstein, was he
23 part of the work around that or just in support of
24 you?
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He supported me to

Page 264
1 help them, but then I think he may have tried to use
2 that to insert himself in some way, that would not
3 have surprised me at all.
4 And I know that he was annoying, in terms
5 that I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn't
6 always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was
7 like, it's not your idea. I don't really care what
8 you think, but that didn't go over so well.
9 TODD BLANCHE: And --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I just want to
11 say, it wasn't my idea for his CGI.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Wasn't your -- say it
13 again.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It's not my idea.
15 They had had that idea before. I just helped bring
16 key personnel to --
17 TODD BLANCHE: You're saying the idea of
18 President Clinton kind of having his own Davos
19 like --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not -- I'm not
21 owning. I didn't -- that's not --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't want anyone --
24 I don't try to elevate myself in any form of
25 importance here.

Page 265
1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Did you go to Davos with
4 President Clinton more than once or just once?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't remember.
6 Once for sure. And I think maybe twice, but I don't
7 remember.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- and you're not, I
9 think you said, you don't -- you're not aware of
10 President Clinton ever going to the island?
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never. Absolutely
12 never went. And I can be sure of that because
13 there's no way he would've gone -- I don't believe
14 there's any way that he would've gone to the island,
15 had I not been there. Because I don't believe he had
16 an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein.
17 Did they speak? Did he go? Yes, but
18 that's very different from going to spend time on an
19 island.

20 And plus, the story as told is so patently
21 absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a
22 helicopter pilot, that is true. But the notion of me
23 flying an ex-president in a machine. That would
24 terrify me. I would never even take that
25 responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah, no.
I'm not
Page 266
1 -- I'm -- no.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- did you ever go with
3 President Clinton to any of Epstein -- Mr. Epstein's
4 properties?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I --
6 TODD BLANCHE: -- so like New Mexico,
7 Palm Beach, or in New York?
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no memory of
9 him in any of those places.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When you were in London
11 with President Clinton, did you -- did you ever go to
12 your -- to your flat with him?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did.
14 I don't -- I don't think so, because this, like, it's
15 like -- he wouldn't even -- he wouldn't even be able
16 to carry all his Secret Service with him. I don't
17 think so, no.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know -- we
19 talked a little about the Duchess of York, about
20 Sarah Ferguson
yesterday.
21 Did -- when's the -- when the last time
22 you, like -- when's the last time you, you saw her?
23 Like, were you -- were you -- do you have a -- were
24 you with her or hang out with her, socializing with
25 her, in the '90s, 2000s? Both?

Page 267
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She's -- well, I had
2 a -- I don't know if she liked me very much. I think
3 my friendship with her ex-husband -- well, sometimes
4 she really did like me and sometimes she didn't. So
5 maybe a frenemy, I don't know.

6 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- it was always
8 friendly when we were together, but I think that
9 there was some latent hostility. And I --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Is that something you've
11 heard since everything came out or along the way you
12 felt that way?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that's how I felt.

14 That -- that is a characterization of myself. That's
15 how I felt about her. I would never -- I was always
16 friendly with her. I mean, she's -- I mean, I've
17 seen her many, many times and she's also super, super
18 close with other people I'm very good friends with in
19 England. I think that -- I think that she liked
20 Mr. Epstein.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My female intuition.


Prince Andrew and Epstein
by Google AI
Accessed: 9/7/25

Recent developments suggest that Prince Andrew's association with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell has been a significant source of controversy and disapproval within the British royal family, culminating in his removal from public duties and royal patronages. A new biography, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York, released in September 2025, portrays Andrew as a "complete liability" and a "horndog in denial," fueling speculation that Prince William is preparing to strip him of his royal titles upon becoming king.

This comes after Ghislaine Maxwell claimed in a recently released interview that it was Andrew's ex-wife, Sarah Ferguson, who introduced him to Epstein, not her, and that she believed Andrew was not involved in the alleged sexual encounters.

Royal Family's Disapproval and Removal from Public Life:

The royal family, particularly Queen Elizabeth II, took decisive action against Andrew following the 2011 BBC interview where he defended his friendship with Epstein and denied the allegations made by Virginia Giuffre, which many viewed as a public relations disaster.
As a result, the Queen removed his honorary military affiliations and royal charitable patronages in January 2022, and he stepped back from public duties in May 2020.
The royal family has consistently viewed his association with Epstein as a major distraction and a threat to the monarchy's reputation.


23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 LEAH SAFFIAN: Discovery.
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh.
Page 268
1 LEAH SUFFIAN: The letter.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't remember it.
3 TODD BLANCHE: It's okay.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don't -- it's
5 possible that there's things -- well, I know -- it's
6 not possible. I know that there is discovery, but I
7 don't recall. But I think she had a thing for him.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Did -- there's some actors
9 or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you
10 about, just to understand whether you knew them or
11 Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
13 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know
14 Mr. Tucker?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think only from that
16 flight to Africa. But I do think that they met --
17 TODD BLANCHE: You say that flight to
18 Africa, the one we were just talking about with --
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
20 TODD BLANCHE: -- President Clinton?

21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Sorry.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Sorry, go ahead. Yep.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I also think that
24 they kept a little bit in touch and I think we met,
25 or I have a memory of him maybe in L.A., I don't

Page 269
1 know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch.
2 I wouldn't -- I don't think it -- I don't know. I
3 don't know how to say that.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Tucker
5 besides that flight?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
7 TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether --
8 when you say you think that they kept in touch, you
9 mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They may have. I
11 didn't, but he might have. I'm not sure.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Kevin Spacey?
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know him also from
14 that same flight.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that flight, do
16 you know him from any other thing?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Naomi Campbell?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do know Naomi,
20 and I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and Mr. --
21 former President Clinton.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
23 Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think she -- he
25 probably met her through me, that I imagine.


Image

In the first installment of this series, Unlimited Hangout examines the Italian businessman Flavio Briatore, sometimes referred to in the press as “Italy’s Donald Trump” because of his long-running friendship with the current president, and how his rise to prominence and wealth was fueled by a series of seedy associations to the same network of organized crime and intelligence operatives that also aided the rise of Epstein....

However, first, this article will examine the supermodel Naomi Campbell, who was introduced to Epstein by Briatore – her one-time fianceé and subsequently “her mentor.” Campbell later flew on Epstein’s plane and, shortly after ending her relationship with Briatore, became romantically involved with the rapper Diddy, who would remain her close friend years after their romantic flame went out. Diddy’s own sex trafficking scandal and trial has been a focus on media attention for much of the past several months and Campbell has been accused of involvement in Diddy’s alleged criminal activity....

Epstein began to focus heavily on the modeling industry in 1995, several years after he teamed up with Wexner. Some evidence, however, suggests that Epstein had become very involved with recruiting models for Victoria’s Secret (or at least claiming to do so) as early as 1993. However, 1995 remains a significant year for Epstein in the modeling industry. That year, Epstein first teamed up with Jean Luc Brunel, a controversial model agency mogul from France who – much like Epstein – died suspiciously in prison in 2022 while awaiting charges related to the Epstein scandal.

Brunel, who is believed to have played a major role in Epstein’s sex trafficking enterprise, had brought Epstein into close connection with Faith Kates of Next models, “one of the most respected agencies in the industry,” who was a former business partner of Brunel’s.... Epstein used his connections to the modeling industry, particularly his ties to Victoria’s Secret, as a lure to so many aspiring models it was later characterized in media reports as “an Epstein-Victoria’s Secret pimp pipeline."

Some in the industry even referred to Epstein as “one of the most important people in modeling” in the late 1990s. His connection with the modeling world persisted up until his first arrest in 2007, particularly his ties with Jean Luc Brunel. With Brunel, an apartment complex owned by a company run by Epstein’s brother Mark was said to have housed underage and just-of-age girls mainly from Eastern Europe and South America. Some (and likely many) of the girls and young women had their travel documents confiscated by Epstein associates and were coerced into having sex with powerful men. One of the models that flew on Epstein’s plane and traveled to his island, Ruslana Korshunova – a model for Vera Wang, DKNY and others – jumped to her death from her ninth floor apartment roughly two years after her trip with Epstein. The reason for Korshunova’s suicide remains unknown....


The Life and (Alleged) Crimes of Flavio Briatore

Flavio Briatore was born in Verzuolo, Italy and, after a failed restaurant venture, moved to the city of Cuneo. There, he became the assistant to local financier Attilio Dutto. Dutto was the owner of the Paramatti Vernici paint company, whose previous owner – Sicilian banker Michele Sindona – had laundered proceeds from heroin sales for the Gambino crime family. Sindona, in addition to his extensive mob ties, was also an adviser to the scandal-ridden Vatican Bank (officially known as the Institute for the Works of Religion) and a member of the infamous Freemason lodge “P2.” P2, also known as Propaganda Due, spawned a massive political scandal in Italy, as its members included mobsters, powerful businessmen, well-connected bankers and important politicians — many who were allegedly tied to the CIA’s Operation Gladio. P2 notably overlapped with Permindex-CMC, which Jim Garrison (and several researchers since) implicated in the conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy.

During the early 1990s, another member of P2, former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, would become one of Flavio Briatore’s longest-standing and closest friends. Berlusconi’s long-time holding company, Fininvest, is alleged to have made annual payments of 200 million lira to the Silician mafia for an unspecified period after the company was founded in 1975. He was later accused by multiple parties of continuing involvement with organized crime, often in the pursuit of business (and later political) favors, throughout the 1980s and the 1990s. Berlusconi, the subject of numerous investigations for corruption, is also known for reportedly having an appetite for underage girls, with his conviction for hiring an underage “prostitute” while Prime Minister of Italy and using his authority to attempt to conceal the crime. His wife left him due to his “surround[ing] himself with minors.”...

Author Paul Williams, who wrote the book on the infamous Operation Gladio, wrote that Dutto’s predecessor Michele Sindona had been a “lynchpin” between organized crime networks (particularly those involving the National Crime Syndicate), the CIA and the Vatican, which eventually resulted “in the toppling of governments, wholesale slaughter and financial devastation” in post-war Europe. Several members of P2 were implicated in the conspiracy, including employees and members of the Agnelli family. The Agnellis, years later, would later become financially entangled with Jeffrey Epstein....

Briatore evaded his prison sentence by becoming a fugitive, landing in the U.S. Virgin Islands, later a favorite haunt of a man who would soon become Briatore’s friend – Jeffrey Epstein. Notably, Epstein’s main patron and another circled name in his black book, Leslie Wexner, also had alleged ties to the Genovese crime family, according to heavily suppressed documents originally authored by Ohio law enforcement. Those documents resulted from the police investigation into the “mob style murder” of Wexner’s lawyer Arthur Shapiro, who was due to testify to the IRS shortly after he was killed. Shortly thereafter, Wexner hired Jeffery Epstein to sort out his “tangled” finances....


Presumably, Briatore met Epstein, as well as his friend Donald Trump, during this period.

Also during this same period, Briatore was tangentially involved in another scandal, one that involved an alleged effort to sell atomic bombs to Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi. This attempt to help make Libya a nuclear power had notably involved an infamous Saudi family tied to the BCCI (Bank of Credit and Commerce International) scandal and money laundering for drug cartels....

The Briatore-Trump Relationship

Briatore and Donald Trump first met during the late 1980s, though Briatore has declined to give an exact date....The two other New York-based “playboys” closest to Trump during this time were Jeffrey Epstein and Tom Barrack of Colony Capital, who still maintains close ties to Trump (now serving as U.S. ambassador to Turkey) and also to Briatore. At the time, Epstein was just beginning to work for Leslie Wexner and had spent much of the early to mid-1980s “hiding and finding stolen money” for powerful people. It seems likely that Briatore first met Epstein either via Trump or Barrack, who is also listed in Epstein’s black book....

Briatore stated that he grew even closer to Trump after officiating a meeting between the real estate mogul and Briatore’s then-boss Luciano Benetton. The meeting, which occurred some time between 1991 and 1992, occurred at the Plaza Hotel in New York, the site of Victoria’s Secret annual fashion shows, and whose suites were once used by a group of organized crime-linked figures to sexually blackmail powerful figures in government. Trump’s mentor and lawyer Roy Cohn, an organized crime associate, had been intimately involved in those blackmail efforts and Trump, after he bought the Plaza, was accused of hosting parties in Plaza hotel suites “where young women and girls were introduced to older, richer men” in which the women were allegedly exploited and illegal drugs were widely available. Around this time, Trump had also taken a controlling interest in Resorts International, an infamous mob-linked CIA front company that had formerly been known as the Mary Carter Paint company. Briatore claims to have introduced Benetton to Trump “because I was sure it was possible to do something together.”...

However, Briatore claimed that, after arranging this meeting, Trump offered him a job....Briatore also specified that the offer had been related to “the commercial side of his [Trump’s] new casino in Atlantic City.” Notably, Trump’s decision to acquire control over the mob and intelligence-linked Resorts International had largely been motivated by his efforts to develop Resort’s casino interests in Atlantic City, namely the Taj Mahal, which officially opened in 1990. A few years later, Trump ran into major financial trouble and was bailed out by Rothschild banking interests.

Though the two never ended up directly working together on any casino-related venture, they eventually did collaborate on “The Apprentice,” with Briatore starring in the series’ Italian language version as Trump’s counterpart. In the 2020 interview with Tom Clarkson, Briatore said that “I have always had a good relationship with him [Trump] […] When he decided to broadcast ‘The Apprentice’ in Italy, he wanted me for it. He said: ‘I want Flavio Briatore.’”...


Naomi Campbell – The Woman Who Connects Epstein and Diddy

Regardless of exactly how Briatore and Epstein met and who introduced them, the two knew each other well before 2001, when Briatore introduced his then-fiancé, supermodel Naomi Campbell, to Epstein. However, given her prominent roles in Victoria’s Secret fashion shows, a prior meeting is possible. Indeed, Campbell herself later said that “He [Epstein] was always front and centre at Victoria’s Secret shows.” When interviewed after Epstein’s arrest in mid-2019, Campbell denied knowledge of Epstein’s crimes and said she stood “with the victims.”

Image

Photos from the occasion where Campbell claims to have first met Epstein – her 31st birthday party hosted on Briatore’s yacht – shows Campbell and Epstein associates in the same photograph. Those photographs are now rather infamous as they also show Epstein’s most prominent accuser, an underage Virginia Roberts (later Virginia Giuffre after her marriage), attending the party and following Epstein’s most notorious accomplice – Ghislaine Maxwell – around the event. Giuffre died earlier this year in April. There are other pictures of Campbell and Maxwell partying together in the early 2000s at subsequent events, suggesting the two became rather chummy after their initial meeting. Giuffre later alleged that Campbell and Maxwell had been “BFF,” i.e. best friends.

In addition, Campbell also flew on Epstein’s private jet five times after she met him, with those flights taking place between 2001 and 2003. One of the flights saw her travel with former president Bill Clinton. Two of the flights originated from the U.S. Virgin Islands, where Briatore had major long-standing connections and where Epstein’s infamous island was located. Campbell has not publicly commented on the flights or if she ever visited Epstein’s USVI island residence. However, she has said that she “ran in the same circles” as Epstein but has insisted that the two weren’t close.

In addition, some of the flights Campbell took on Epstein’s plane went to Brazil, a place where Campbell has said she would go out on the street and recruit teen girls for the modeling industry. The Miami Herald reported in 2018 that one lawsuit against Epstein claimed that he “used an international modeling agency [Brunel’s Mc2] to recruit girls as young as 13 from Europe, Ecuador and Brazil.” It is unknown if Campbell had played a role in those efforts while traveling to Brazil on Epstein’s aircraft. However, she was romantically linked to Briatore when most of the flights took place, and Briatore – as previously noted – is a circled name in Epstein’s black book. In addition, Campbell was accused of involvement in the sex trafficking scandal where her former boyfriend and long-time friend, the rapper Diddy, who recently stood trial for crimes similar to those reportedly committed by Epstein. One allegation claims Campbell was used by Diddy as a “lure” for his victims. If true, those allegations may offer cause to re-examine her flights on Epstein’s infamous jet.

Furthermore, Campbell was also accused by Epstein victims of being aware of his sex trafficking operation but doing nothing to stop it. Indeed, while Campbell has claimed to have known nothing of Epstein’s crimes and to support his victims, Virginia Giuffre tweeted at Naomi Campbell after his 2019 death, accusing her of knowing what was happening. “You saw me at your parties, you saw me in Epstein’s homes, you saw me on the plane, you saw me get my haircut, you saw me on the streets, you watched me be abused. You saw me!” Giuffre wrote in early 2020. In another tweet Giuffre said that “There is no way in hell that she [Campbell] didn’t know what was happening in front of her own eyes. They were all aware of Epstein and Maxwell’s op – didn’t go at [sic] to hide it either.” Notably, Campbell was also mentioned in the testimony of Epstein accuser Johanna Sjoberg....

Maxwell was also photographed with Donald Trump and his then-girlfriend and later wife Melania at the same event. Melania had recently begun dating Trump, and Maxwell later claimed to have introduced them....

Campbell’s subsequent long-term relationship after Briatore also deserves a quick mention. Campbell began dating billionaire Vladislav Doronin in 2008 and the two split in 2013 after Doronin was photographed vacationing with another woman and embracing another model that he had met through Campbell. Doronin, a billionaire of Russia origin, made his money largely through his close-knit relationship with commodity trader and Mossad asset Marc Rich. Rich, a long-time fugitive from U.S. authorities with very close ties to Israeli intelligence, was also close to prominent figures in the “Mega Group,” namely Michael Steinhardt, who, alongside former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, allegedly helped pressure former president Bill Clinton to controversially pardon Rich right before he left office. Rich also had controversial ties to Bruce Rappaport, a shipping magnate and banker tied to U.S. and Israeli intelligence, as well as the criminal bank BCCI, which – in addition to banking drug cartels, intelligence agencies and financial criminals – also ran a sex trafficking operation where minors were abused at the hands of the bank’s “VIPs.”


-- First Friends: How “Italy’s Donald Trump” Introduced Naomi Campbell to Jeffrey Epstein, by Whitney Webb, July 21, 2025
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Re: Ghislaine Maxwell Deposition, August 22-23, 2025

Postby admin » Sun Sep 07, 2025 4:33 am

Part 3 of 4

Page 270
1 TODD BLANCHE: And so for those three,
2 Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell, did they
3 ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein's properties; the
4 island or New Mexico?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not Mr. Tucker --
6 well, not to my knowledge Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey.
7 Naomi Campbell may have.
8 TODD BLANCHE: To where?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She may have gone --
10 well, she certainly -- well, I believe she visited
11 him in Palm Beach, and I believe she may have gone to
12 the island and she may have gone to see his house in
13 New York. Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as
14 well, maybe. They were friends or friendly.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Were you -- what you just
16 said "she may have," were you on those trips?
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't have any
18 independent memory of that, so I'm not sure. I don't
19 think so.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her relationship, her
22 friendship, her -- I think you're making me use your
23 word. Her -- her friendship, whatever, with
24 Mr. Epstein was independent of me.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. But you also had a
Page 271
1 separate friendship with her before you met
2 Mr. Epstein?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Larry Summers, the
5 former Secretary of the Treasury.
6 Do you know that person?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did, yes.
8 TODD BLANCHE: How?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Summers
10 through Mr. Epstein.
11 TODD BLANCHE: And the same question, just
12 generally time period, are you talking about early
13 2000s, '90s, a little after that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly really
15 don't know.
16 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did want to say
18 something. I forgot that there was -- yesterday.
19 You asked me about Mr. Epstein's properties. He had
20 a rental in Boston as well, but it -- not for very
21 long, but it was another place that I had to put
22 together. And I only went with him once and he would
23 go there independently of me. No, I would not go
24 with him.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Was that in the '90s?
Page 272
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was, yes.
2 TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Summers, do you know
3 why -- do you know what his relationship was with
4 Mr. Epstein; business, personal, both, or don't you
5 know?
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he spoke to
7 Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they
8 were friends. They were friendly.
9 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
10 Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein's planes to
11 any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He may have, but I
13 don't think, if he did, I was on any of the flights.
14 I mean, those are another issues. I mean, I went --
15 I traveled so, so much that I really -- the flights
16 just blur.
17 TODD BLANCHE: I understand.
18 George Soros?
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he knew
20 him. I did, but I don't think he did. I don't
21 think.
22 TODD BLANCHE: How did you know Mr. Soros?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was friends with his
24 kids.
25 TODD BLANCHE: What -- which kids?
Page 273
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Jon and -- I can't
2 think of his other child. I can't think of -- I
3 mean, I've lost his name.
4 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
6 LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him, but just
8 socially. He may not remember even having met me. I
9 was excited to meet him.
10 TODD BLANCHE: When are you thinking --
11 when would you have met him?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If I met him it -- I
13 think it was either at an event or at his kids -- it
14 wouldn't have been at his house. An event, I
15 think -- or I think actually, no, in the Hamptons I
16 met him. He was staying at somebody's house. If --
17 if my memory serves.
18 TODD BLANCHE: And what was your
19 relationship? How did you know his kids?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was out and about in
21 New York a lot.
22 TODD BLANCHE: So just socially?
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Just socially, yes.
24 And -- yeah, just socially, I think.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know -- do you know
Page 274
1 whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on
2 Mr. Epstein's planes?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think so.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Ever visit either the
5 island or New Mexico or --
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don't think so.
7 TODD BLANCHE: Paris? No?
8 Okay. So I -- we tried to -- to identify
9 names that have come up, either publicly or in -- in
10 other lawsuits. Are there any names that you -- that
11 come to mind that we haven't, we've talked about a
12 lot of names. A lot of names.
13 Are there some folks that you think we've
14 forgotten to ask you about?
15 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you asked me
16 about names and I have some names, and I just want to
17 give you some context for the names as well.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we talked about
20 Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She had a boyfriend
23 and he was Frederic Fekkai, the hairdresser. And he
24 and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.
25 TODD BLANCHE: And then what time period
Page 275
1 are you talking about?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well --
3 TODD BLANCHE: Like '90s, or 2000s, or
4 both?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the 2000s,
6 actually, for that. You can date that because it was
7 from when he -- I think he probably knew Frederic
8 before he dated Elizabeth. But --
9 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say they were
10 very friendly, did they go -- did they travel
11 together?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know if they
13 traveled together, I mean, Epstein didn't go out very
14 much or -- I mean, he did go out, but not -- and
15 sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and
16 maybe see Fred- -- Frederic.
17 And then there was -- I mean, he had a
18 bunch of guys that he would -- I would know that he
19 would see or meet, but he really -- I guess now -- so
20 he had new friends. I -- I don't know, but --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What other names?
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, so Henry
23 Jarecki, who had an island near his. Henry was a
24 financier who was the guy who cornered the silver
25 market back in the day.
Page 276
1 TODD BLANCHE: He had an island in the
2 Caribbean -- in the Caribbean near Mr. Epstein?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. In the British
4 Virgin Islands.
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there was
7 Branson's island there. Now I know that there's an
8 allegation that they met. I -- I think -- I think I
9 remember that I went to Richard Branson's island with
10 Mr. Epstein, and maybe he went another time, but I
11 don't -- I wouldn't characterize Richard Branson and
12 him as friends, but he did go and I think I went with
13 him.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
15 Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein's island?
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If he did, I was not
17 there.
18 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So -- but it's
20 possible, so --
21 TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I wanted to ...
23 TODD BLANCHE: Who else?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Marvin Minsky. He had
25 a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly
Page 277
1 with, all centered around Harvard. So I remember
2 him.
3 Martin Nowak, who's a mathematician.
4 Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould
5 was -- came through the Harvard angle, but I know
6 that there was a -- he would -- excuse me, Epstein
7 would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to
8 organize and the scientists were a very major
9 component of that.
10 They weren't social dinners as much as
11 they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he
12 would discuss. But if you were in the area of brain
13 cognition or -- he would invite them to the house and
14 they would come, all of them. All -- any name you
15 can name, they would be there.
16 TODD BLANCHE: So let's talk about that
17 top -- that relation -- those -- those associations
18 or relationships he had with the mathematicians or --
19 and with Harvard, and I think with MIT, to some
20 extent as well.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Official
22 (indiscernible) MIT too, yeah.
23 TODD BLANCHE: What -- from what you
24 observed, what's the reason behind him having --
25 developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and
Page 278
1 with certain professors and others associated with
2 those institutions?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He really was
4 profoundly interested in that area of science and in
5 the brain, and in -- I mean, if you were in --
6 Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on
7 happiness, I mean, it -- it came, I believe, from a
8 genuine area of interest, not from anything ...
9 TODD BLANCHE: And how did he -- how did
10 he become friends with them? How -- how was he able
11 to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to
12 the university and then they were kind of --
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Certain --
14 TODD BLANCHE: -- it was mandatory fun for
15 them or did he have relations with them where he
16 would, you know --
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know the
18 chicken --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- host them or --
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't if the chicken
21 or the egg came first.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But -- but when I met
24 him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this
25 stuff. This is not -- I -- I've read, so this is why
Page 279
1 I'm saying this. I was not responsible for these --
2 for this area of interest. I mean, I certainly --
3 sorry, just to bounce a second before it slips my
4 mind and I leave something out.
5 There was an institute in New Mexico
6 called -- anyone? The institute of -- it's very
7 famous. We're not talking to the Alamos.
8 Anyway, all right. There's a very famous
9 institute in New Mexico, so you can look it up.
10 You'll -- it'll come to you at the minute you put it
11 in your computer.
12 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there had some of
14 the biggest brains ever. Those -- that relationship
15 came through me, so I -- that's me. And that is
16 because my father was -- one of the major scientific
17 hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from
18 scientific publishing.
19 And when it started from the thing that
20 you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the
21 Second World War, I told you, and he won the military
22 cross, and then he actually did become what was part
23 of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to
24 interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war.
25 And then that parleyed into business with
Page 280
1 Springer-Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which
2 was the scientific journals business. And he had an
3 interest -- he believed that it's -- knowledge is
4 what would prevent war.
5 And the biggest scientific discoveries --
6 well, not all of them, but many of them are coming
7 from the Eastern block and that's how we have the
8 relationship with Santa Fe Institute.
9 And Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I
10 introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go
11 off on a tangent.
12 TODD BLANCHE: This is at the Santa Fe
13 Institute?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, thank you. And
15 Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and
16 Epstein got along very, very well.
17 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he was the man of
19 the (unintelligible). Sorry.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So do you know whether --
21 so while you -- when you meet Mr. Epstein in the
22 early '90s continuing on, so not what he had done
23 before, did he -- why do you think, from what you saw
24 or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted
25 to have the relationships that he had with Harvard
Page 281
1 and with -- and with MIT?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think that that
3 may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's
4 something that I think that Wexner maybe had a
5 relationship with Harvard, and that he used that
6 relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot.
7 And if he didn't, that his clients of
8 which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he
9 would -- he would then make -- he would arrange the
10 fund or --
11 TODD BLANCHE: Did --
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- organize the fund,
13 or I don't know.
14 TODD BLANCHE: I'm going to take -- we'll
15 take a break in a -- in a minute, but just to kind of
16 set us up for what we're going to talk about next.
17 Mr. Ep- -- we talked yesterday morning
18 about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had
19 money. Did he seem to live beyond his means, as far
20 as what he was making?
21 So did you ever get the sense while you
22 were with him, that it was suspicious or curious how
23 he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you
24 know, two planes, you know, an island, and
25 New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost -- almost
Page 282
1 unlimited funds?
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You said it perfectly.
3 I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any
4 reason to believe that it came from anything
5 nefarious.
6 I saw him work. I never saw him really do
7 anything, other than be on the phone, there's that,
8 and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of
9 accounts.
10 And he dealt with pretty much every
11 financier that you could care to mention. And if I
12 could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell
13 you which ones you -- I just don't remember them all.
14 But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of
15 them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major
16 businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of
17 Foreign Relations, so you had access. That's an
18 extraordinary list of people. It just is.
19 And then he -- you asked me about his, but
20 I -- so I thought about it last night, how to try and
21 explain what it was and I think the best thing is to
22 focus only on Wexner's business.
23 So I was present for some of their
24 meetings in some of their business, and I listened.
25 And so things that I personally recollect, and I know
Page 283
1 I heard, was that he would -- when I told you
2 yesterday, I think, that he would, no detail was too
3 small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I
4 think, and I saw that myself.
5 And he also organized all the trusts for
6 all the children, so if Wexner had kids -- and
7 Wexner -- I don't know if he did, he did have
8 children. So every time there was a child, he would
9 create a trust for that child.
10 And I don't -- these were complex
11 financial structures that would contain stocks of the
12 various businesses. He restructured, when I was
13 there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I
14 recollect.
15 And then not only that, but there were
16 business interests, so Wexner owned or build, or
17 designed, or I don't quite know how to characterize
18 it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of
19 Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically.
20 And he built -- I remember this
21 conversation, he built himself a very large house,
22 like truly enormous and it's one of the biggest
23 private homes I've ever been to.
24 And he built all the houses around him,
25 and I'm like, this is so random, why would you do
Page 284
1 that? And he said to me, well, because I want to
2 make sure that the people around me are my friends --
3 I want my friends around me and my neighbors. And I
4 was like, well, whatever. Okay, you know. I've been
5 around enormous wealth my whole life, and I've like
6 -- at some point I just say, okay, whatever. I get
7 it, and I don't. And so that's what he did.
8 But Epstein ran New Albany, which included
9 a country club and a golf club and a -- I mean, gosh,
10 your boss is one of the all-time great, you know,
11 businessmen in this area. You know what that is.
12 And he certainly does.
13 So there'd be that, and there was a
14 business business that Epstein -- well, he told me he
15 owned it, but of course, I can't say that for sure,
16 because I don't know, but it's a sports thing.
17 Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's? I thought
18 about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets.
19 Riddell's?
20 LEAH SAFFIAN: Riddell.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Riddell. Yeah,
22 Riddell's.
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Now, how he owned
25 that -- well, he told me he owned it, but how he
Page 285
1 owned that, I -- but that was before I think I came
2 in and he had it, or he said he did.
3 TODD BLANCHE: Got it.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had other
5 businesses. He had -- I know this notion that he did
6 nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot.
7 Okay. I'm not going to say that's not
8 true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I
9 believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been
10 that he didn't grift or whatever the word is off --
11 off people, but I saw where I thought looked like
12 real work.
13 TODD BLANCHE: Well, why don't we take
14 a -- take a break. Okay.
15 DAVID MARKUS: Yeah. Thank you.
16 SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is now
17 10:35 and we'll take a break.
18 (Off the record at 10:35 a.m.)
19 SPENCER HORN: We are resuming from break.
20 The time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th.
21 TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we've
22 talked around this issue, but -- talked about it a
23 little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or
24 however long it takes.
25 When you -- when we -- I want to talk,
Page 286
1 focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his
2 criminal conduct with respect to women.
3 Do you -- you said yesterday a couple
4 times that, like, you now kind of recognize or think
5 that there was things that he did that you didn't
6 know about, and that he kept from you or that you
7 didn't see.
8 What did you see? So you said yesterday,
9 and I'm not -- I'm not trying to put words in your
10 mouth, but at some point he was getting massages
11 seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day.
12 Women have said that -- that were there -- that say
13 they were there giving him massages, said that those
14 included some sort of sexual conduct, however, you
15 define that in the broadest sense, not just a
16 traditional massage, regularly.
17 So what do you -- what did you see and
18 hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what
19 you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been
20 through what you've been through and heard people say
21 what they've said, and read what they read, what do
22 you -- where does that leave you in your mind with
23 what happened?
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I saw
25 Epstein with women. I mean, what I mean by that is
Page 287
1 he would have women around him, or women on the
2 plane, or women in his house, or -- that's how I'm
3 explaining that.
4 Those women were very interested. What --
5 my characterization of the interest -- the
6 relationships between all women that I saw with him
7 and him, was characterized by -- excuse me, their
8 interest in him as I would see it.
9 And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody
10 who didn't want to be with him and be with him, maybe
11 socially or whatever. I never saw anybody, not under
12 any form of duress in any type of situation where
13 they were, as I would characterize it, looking
14 uncomfortable or in any way distressed.
15 In the entire time I was with him or
16 traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I
17 saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him.
18 He would ask people all the time, whoever you were,
19 to massage his feet.
20 It just was -- he'd be sitting there, and
21 he'd have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his
22 shoulders, or -- I saw that a lot. It was an
23 ubiquitous interaction, if you will.
24 So I did see that. I saw physicality, but
25 not anything that was -- I don't know how to
Page 288
1 characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I
2 suppose, to define that. So I never saw an
3 aggressive move.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Well --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
6 that was --
7 TODD BLANCHE: Non-consensual.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. Okay. I
9 never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if
10 he -- well, maybe they didn't -- I never saw anything
11 that looked like they didn't like the hug, or I never
12 saw what I would characterize as anything that was
13 unconsensual.
14 TODD BLANCHE: Did you see -- did you see
15 him either receiving or participating in sexual
16 conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw
17 something nonconsensual.
18 Did you see him engage in sexual conduct
19 during massages?
20 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you could define
21 sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have
22 been, you know, less than normally clad for massage,
23 but especially on the island where they would be in a
24 bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see
25 that. So you would --
Page 289
1 TODD BLANCHE: But what about in -- so --
2 yes, I agree, that's one area. Like -- so women who
3 were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom
4 on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him
5 touching them?
6 And again, I'm not talking about consent
7 or not consent or age or -- you know, I'm saying like
8 there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and
9 dozens of women who have said that they were -- that
10 they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree, there's
11 a broad range of what that can -- how that can be
12 defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.
13 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So him being physical
14 with women? I did see that, but nothing that was not
15 consensual. And to address the issue of the large
16 number of women who today say that he was
17 non-consensual coercive with them. I'm not sure.
18 I -- in my mind I sort of have to characterize the
19 two distinct areas. There's one where is the women
20 who are not of age. Therefore, anything with them is
21 immediately unconsensual.
22 TODD BLANCHE: Correct, yeah.
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So let's start -- I
24 want to define anyone who's underage versus anybody
25 who's over age, because I do think that there's a
Page 290
1 very significant differential between the two.
2 TODD BLANCHE: So does the law.
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Okay. So --
4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't mean that.
6 TODD BLANCHE: No, no.
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not trying to be
8 smart.
9 TODD BLANCHE: I agree with you. Yes, I
10 agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I want to
12 deal with the thing, which is really why we're here.
13 I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the
14 other, but I just --
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
16 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- want to make a
17 distinction with underage situation, because there's
18 nothing about that that's right.
19 I never saw anything with anybody who was
20 certainly to be categorical in my -- from my trial.
21 Let's deal with that, because that's
22 something that I can say in -- I never saw that with
23 them at all. And I would say that as -- as
24 described, anyway, in my trial did not happen as
25 described.
Page 291
1 I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do
2 those things. I'm not casting those -- I'm not going
3 to say -- I don't feel comfortable saying that today,
4 given what I now know to be true. So I am not here
5 to defend him.
6 But what I can say is that I did not
7 participate in that activity. And --
8 TODD BLANCHE: So let's divide this into
9 two areas. Maybe there's more, but we'll start with
10 two areas. One is there was testimony and there's
11 certainly been depositions and public statements,
12 that some of these young women had conversations with
13 you about their age.
14 So, for example, conversations about the
15 fact that they were in high school or conversations
16 about the fact that they wanted to go to college one
17 day, which would necessarily mean -- well, not
18 necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that
19 they were in high school when they talked to you
20 about that.
21 And so, were there times -- were there
22 women that you knew were underage? And I say that
23 because that's different than whether they were
24 sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just
25 merely their age and going to give him a massage?
Page 292
1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I never knew that
2 and I can categorically state that had any child said
3 to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17,
4 because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said
5 they were 17, I don't -- but I've read so much that
6 that did happen.
7 I mean, I just -- I had no -- I would
8 never have permitted such a thing, I would not -- I
9 don't even know what I would have done.
10 TODD BLANCHE: So some of the -- I think
11 even someone who testified at trial, but certainly
12 have publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when
13 she was introduced to Mr. Epstein.
14 In -- in your mind today, you don't -- you
15 kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that,
16 meaning you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman
17 coming to give him a massage?
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe you're
19 talking about Jane, and I'm --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- very happy to
22 address that. I actually don't think that the
23 testimony is correct. I don't believe --
24 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, look, I don't --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No, no, I'm
Page 293
1 not -- I just wanted to tell you how --
2 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to
3 get into --
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm not --
5 TODD BLANCHE: -- he said, she said.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- no, no. Absolutely
7 not. I'm not -- I don't want to go there either.
8 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah.
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to do
10 that. But I believe that what took place, with a lot
11 of these people, is that there was a slide, right?
12 So there was a zone and I -- he did meet
13 her and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a
14 young child and I knew that she was not an adult,
15 because -- but I don't believe he met her 'til she
16 was 16.
17 So I'm not -- I'm not doing a he said, she
18 said, I'm not doing that, because nobody will.
19 That's not what we're here for.
20 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But he didn't meet her
22 'til she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14,
23 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate.
24 Did I meet her when she was 16 with her
25 mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she
Page 294
1 was young? I absolutely did.
2 But everything that took place that was
3 alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16, is not
4 accurate. And -- I don't --
5 TODD BLANCHE: There's testimony or
6 there's -- and again, I'm using testimony in the
7 broadest sense. Some of this is just public
8 statements or something that's come out in civil
9 lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like an
10 18 -- you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody,
11 which again, if true would, by definition mean you
12 knew that she was under 18.
13 Do you recall doing that?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. I mean, no
15 memory of that at all. And I believe that would be
16 the person that called herself Kate has now announced
17 herself in her own podcast for who she really is.
18 Her name is . So I did not meet
19 until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So
20 it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18
21 birthday card. And the testimony -- there's also --
22 TODD BLANCHE: Do you accept --
23 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that slid back.
24 TODD BLANCHE: -- do you accept that at
25 some point, and we talked about this yesterday about
DOJ REDACTION
DOJ REDACTION
Page 295
1 how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point,
2 Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women?
3 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I accept.
4 TODD BLANCHE: And I think you said
5 yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about
6 it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of
7 the areas where he changed from when you first met
8 him until later?
9 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- when -- I just
10 also want it to be clear, I never understood that
11 change to encompass children. I did see from when I
12 met him, he was involved or -- involved or friends
13 with or whatever, however you want to characterize
14 it, with women who were in their 20s. And then the
15 slide to, you know, 18 or younger looking women. But
16 I never considered that this would encompass criminal
17 behavior. It never ...
18 TODD BLANCHE: And so when you read, I
19 guess, two different times, right? One was during
20 the Florida investigation, when --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
22 TODD BLANCHE: -- there were eventually
23 public statements from some of these now women who
24 testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when
25 they were under 18.
Page 296
1 At that point, did you realize or did you
2 think to yourself, this happened or this could have
3 happened, I missed it, or were you at that point
4 still in the mindset that they were either not
5 telling the truth or were not remembering what
6 happened the way that -- accurately?
7 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's a very fair
8 question. So I think that my view of this at that
9 time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did,
10 because I don't think that stuff came out in public,
11 right? I mean, I may have read things, but I
12 don't -- my first real ---
13 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fair.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- memory of that is
15 at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set
16 from the minute that lied in her civil
17 deposition. And I could never recover from that,
18 because --
19 TODD BLANCHE: What are you -- what are
20 you -- which lie, what are you referring to?
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her entire
22 characterization --
23 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
24 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- of -- no, I don't
25 remember how she came and whether I did, --
DOJ REDACTION
Page 297
1 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
2 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I'm talking
3 about the first time she came to Epstein's house,
4 which I knew --
5 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
6 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to be false. So
7 from that first lie of that description, I could
8 never recover from that.
9 TODD BLANCHE: I understand. Okay. So --
10 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that tainted --
11 sorry. Just so that we clear it, tainted, then, the
12 testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post
13 that, because I had my own personal experience, which
14 I knew to be false.
15 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And the reason why I
16 think -- and I said to Mr. Markus that -- this
17 morning that we were going to talk about this,
18 because when I think about you and the public's
19 perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with
20 the view that nobody in the world knows what really
21 happened except for you, okay?
22 And now you've explained, the last day and
23 a half, how some of that's just a misperception,
24 because you weren't -- you didn't have a key to his
25 house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody
Page 298
1 claims you were, okay?
2 But there still is this perception out
3 there that, oh my gosh, if -- if we could talk to
4 Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein
5 was or how misperceived he was. Whatever the truth
6 is about Mr. Epstein.
7 And the challenge in my mind, just to
8 be -- I told you I would tell you when I had
9 issues -- and the challenge in my mind is that so
10 many women have -- have said that Mr. Epstein
11 sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults,
12 that I don't find it -- you know, at some -- that's
13 persuasive, right, that that happened.
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So --
15 TODD BLANCHE: And so if that's persuasive
16 then -- and I think it's without -- beyond
17 contestation that he preferred younger women --
18 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I --
19 TODD BLANCHE: -- and it's also beyond,
20 I think at this point, there were certainly
21 circumstances that underage women -- well, I don't
22 want to say that you agree with me on that.
23 I certainly believe that there were
24 younger age women that were abused by him, okay? And
25 so -- and then so the layer that I want you to --
Page 299
1 that I really want to have a frank discussion about,
2 is some of these women have said, oh, yes, you know,
3 Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.
4 She saw me there, she -- the door was open when I was
5 there. And then much more egregious, right? That
6 you participated and that you were part of it.
7 And so what I really want you to have an
8 opportunity to say to us, is where on the spectrum
9 the truth is. Whether it's somewhere in the middle,
10 whether it's one extreme or another extreme,
11 understanding. In my mind, I'm talking about 1994 or
12 '5, to whenever, late '90s or early 2000s.
13 DAVID MARKUS: And let me just interrupt.
14 All I would say is, we're not here to say anything
15 one way or the other about Epstein.
16 I agree with you that the evidence is
17 overwhelming against him, and he -- he is his own
18 person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can
19 speak about what she knows --
20 TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
21 DAVID MARKUS: -- and from her point of
22 view and what she did.
23 And that's what you can talk about,
24 Ghislaine.
25 TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
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